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mrblisterdundee
10-09-2017, 07:05 PM
It's been more than a week since the last post, so I'm going to pick it up. I put a two-day limit on voting.
Gobert was the first guy I ran into on Sports Illustrated's rankings who wasn't in the pool of 10 guys to vote for, so I added him. Irving and Thomas have come up a lot, but neither one of them cracked the top 20 in multiple rankings, so they'll have to wait.

1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Stephen Curry
5. Russell Westbrook
6. James Harden
7. Chris Paul

mrblisterdundee
10-09-2017, 07:09 PM
Honestly, I probably should have just penciled in Anthony as No. 8, considering the amount of votes going his way already. But I figured Giannis would get some votes too.

More-Than-Most
10-09-2017, 07:25 PM
Honestly, I probably should have just penciled in Anthony as No. 8, considering the amount of votes going his way already. But I figured Giannis would get some votes too.

wow... had to stop and smack myself for a second... thought you were trying to argue for melo lmfao.

FlashBolt
10-09-2017, 07:49 PM
I'll take AD over Giannis for now but I'd much rather build around Giannis. AD is pretty much as polished as can be whereas Giannis still has so much room to grow. Health is obviously a huge concern for me and AD has been a bit unreliable on that end.

Heediot
10-09-2017, 08:22 PM
Giannis. I think he impacts the game in more ways vs. Davis.

tredigs
10-09-2017, 08:57 PM
I'll go Giannis here, especially giving some weight to my expectations of where he's going to be at entering the season. I could see him leap-frogging CP3 and Westbrook into the top-5 discussion. Just too much improvement every year not to be right there. AD was probably better 3 years ago then he is today given his injuries and general lack of improvement. I'll take Draymond over him all day.

Bostonjorge
10-09-2017, 09:51 PM
I got Irving here.

Davis and Greek will both be out of the 4 top playoff seeds. 5-8 will be their ceiling. Irving will be a top 2 seed with number 1 overall seed in the east as the most likely seed for him.

Has to be Irving.

FlashBolt
10-09-2017, 10:31 PM
I got Irving here.

Davis and Greek will both be out of the 4 top playoff seeds. 5-8 will be their ceiling. Irving will be a top 2 seed with number 1 overall seed in the east as the most likely seed for him.

Has to be Irving.

There is no way Irving is as good as Davis or Giannis.

Bostonjorge
10-09-2017, 10:39 PM
There is no way Irving is as good as Davis or Giannis.

Davis and Greek have almost a zero shot at the conference finals. Irving is considered a failure if he gets anything less then the conference finals.

cmellofan15
10-09-2017, 10:56 PM
LMAO are you serious? Do we even know if Kyrie is the best player on his team yet? :laugh2:

ewing
10-10-2017, 09:03 AM
Based on past performance for the last 2 years I honestly think Thomas is the answer. If i were to pick a player for one year here I would pick the Greek freak even if Thomas was healthy. He was great last year and I think he will be better again. I like AD as a player but feel his numbers are greater then his impact.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 09:08 AM
I got Irving here.

Davis and Greek will both be out of the 4 top playoff seeds. 5-8 will be their ceiling. Irving will be a top 2 seed with number 1 overall seed in the east as the most likely seed for him.

Has to be Irving.

Irving still has another 15-20 players that go before we talk about him.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 09:08 AM
It's Davis, or the Freak here. Either one works, I voted for Davis.

kdspurman
10-10-2017, 09:44 AM
Greek Freak here for me

basch152
10-10-2017, 10:29 AM
Davis and Greek have almost a zero shot at the conference finals. Irving is considered a failure if he gets anything less then the conference finals.


😂😂😂😂😂

oh **** you're serious?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣😂

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 10:30 AM
Davis and Greek have almost a zero shot at the conference finals. Irving is considered a failure if he gets anything less then the conference finals.

do you remember Irving prior to your Voldemort showing up there? Dude didn't win ****.

Let me know when he can stop me from getting a layup on him..

Bostonjorge
10-10-2017, 04:18 PM
Irving still has another 15-20 players that go before we talk about him.

15-20 more players? So Irving is 22-27 in the player rankings? He’s on his way to the conference finals. If accomplishing that gets you that ranking then your admitting winning or playing great in the east is a non factor.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Boston took out the favorites Cavs come playoff time. In 7 with Irving finishing it off.

Irving is at least top 10.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 04:18 PM
15-20 more players? So Irving is 22-27 in the player rankings? He’s on his way to the conference finals. If accomplishing that gets you that ranking then your admitting winning or playing great in the east is a non factor.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Boston took out the favorites Cavs come playoff time. In 7 with Irving finishing it off.

Irving is at least top 10.

He? No, his loaded team, with a top 3 player ever, made finals. If he makes it in Boston, it's because his loaded team helped him.

Irving, is nowhere near top 10.

I am not admitting anything, outside Irving isn't a top player. Just because he played alongside the greatest player since Jordan, who automatically gets you 50 wins, doesn't all of a sudden change the fact that as his teams best player, Irving's teams have sucked balls.

ewing
10-10-2017, 04:55 PM
He? No, his loaded team, with a top 3 player ever, made finals. If he makes it in Boston, it's because his loaded team helped him.

Irving, is nowhere near top 10.

I am not admitting anything, outside Irving isn't a top player. Just because he played alongside the greatest player since Jordan, who automatically gets you 50 wins, doesn't all of a sudden change the fact that as his teams best player, Irving's teams have sucked balls.

Nor does it change the fact that he joined a 19 win team as a teenager and only had 3 years without LeBron.

hugepatsfan
10-10-2017, 05:41 PM
lmfao at anyone who votes Gobert. Absolutely absurd to have him even on the board lol

hugepatsfan
10-10-2017, 05:42 PM
Irving is not top 10 but 15-20 players puts him in the 23-28 range and he should be an option before that. Off the top of my head I'll say he's off the board before that but not ready to 100% say. Definitely on the board though.

hugepatsfan
10-10-2017, 05:43 PM
He? No, his loaded team, with a top 3 player ever, made finals. If he makes it in Boston, it's because his loaded team helped him.

Irving, is nowhere near top 10.

I am not admitting anything, outside Irving isn't a top player. Just because he played alongside the greatest player since Jordan, who automatically gets you 50 wins, doesn't all of a sudden change the fact that as his teams best player, Irving's teams have sucked balls.

This is such a dumb criticism. He was on a trash team as a 19, 20 and 21 year-old. Even MJ and LBJ couldn't get their teams to .500 in their first 3 years. Irving has flaws but the bolded comment is an ABSURD argument to make against him.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 06:00 PM
This is such a dumb criticism. He was on a trash team as a 19, 20 and 21 year-old. Even MJ and LBJ couldn't get their teams to .500 in their first 3 years. Irving has flaws but the bolded comment is an ABSURD argument to make against him.

No, but when LeBron is off the court, Cavs turn to a net-negative team.. here I am waiting for someone to say but "Team is built for LeBron." To which I ask, how did Kyrie not succeed with this same roster when leBron is off? Kyrie plays ISO and you don't win team games playing ISO. You can't dribble and pound the ball for 20 seconds and expect your teammates to follow in-line. And that's why Kyrie is not a top 10 player. He has yet to make his teammates better.. name me one player he has made better.. I will wait.

Vee-Rex
10-10-2017, 06:10 PM
No, but when LeBron is off the court, Cavs turn to a net-negative team.. here I am waiting for someone to say but "Team is built for LeBron." To which I ask, how did Kyrie not succeed with this same roster when leBron is off? Kyrie plays ISO and you don't win team games playing ISO. You can't dribble and pound the ball for 20 seconds and expect your teammates to follow in-line. And that's why Kyrie is not a top 10 player. He has yet to make his teammates better.. name me one player he has made better.. I will wait.

I'm gonna love seeing how Kyrie does with Boston. Because in Cleveland, the team is not only built for LeBron with its roster, but it's built with its scheme.

If Brad can have a more free-flowing offense compared to Cleveland's Bron-ball (spread out, everyone parks at the 3-point line and wait for the drive-kick) then it might be more suited for Kyrie's skills. Boston's offense just might get him to be a bit better at making other players better.

No matter which side you're on, I feel like most if not all the Kyrie-related questions will be answered this year. I just don't see his on/off being as bad as it was with Cleveland.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 06:29 PM
I'm gonna love seeing how Kyrie does with Boston. Because in Cleveland, the team is not only built for LeBron with its roster, but it's built with its scheme.

If Brad can have a more free-flowing offense compared to Cleveland's Bron-ball (spread out, everyone parks at the 3-point line and wait for the drive-kick) then it might be more suited for Kyrie's skills. Boston's offense just might get him to be a bit better at making other players better.

No matter which side you're on, I feel like most if not all the Kyrie-related questions will be answered this year. I just don't see his on/off being as bad as it was with Cleveland.

He doesn't make any teammates better. I have not seen him get Kyle open shots or J.R... so he's going to get his numbers up but I don't see how he can carry a team. When has he? A game or two where he goes double nickel but his gameplay doesn't resort to winning unless you have another guy who can create for the rest. And you say Cleveland is built for LeBron and his schemes.. next paragraph, you start saying that if Boston's offense is like Bron's Cleveland offense, it is suited for Kyrie's skills.. so... you mean to tell me that Cavs are suited for Kyrie's skills?

ewing
10-10-2017, 06:33 PM
I'm gonna love seeing how Kyrie does with Boston. Because in Cleveland, the team is not only built for LeBron with its roster, but it's built with its scheme.

If Brad can have a more free-flowing offense compared to Cleveland's Bron-ball (spread out, everyone parks at the 3-point line and wait for the drive-kick) then it might be more suited for Kyrie's skills. Boston's offense just might get him to be a bit better at making other players better.

No matter which side you're on, I feel like most if not all the Kyrie-related questions will be answered this year. I just don't see his on/off being as bad as it was with Cleveland.

i agree. The jury is still out for me on Kyrie and this year will answer a lot.

basch152
10-11-2017, 09:19 AM
It's amazing to me that anyone is stupid enough to believe an isolation player with no other good skills outside of scoring is even a top 20 player, let alone top 10.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2017, 11:28 AM
He doesn't make any teammates better. I have not seen him get Kyle open shots or J.R... so he's going to get his numbers up but I don't see how he can carry a team. When has he? A game or two where he goes double nickel but his gameplay doesn't resort to winning unless you have another guy who can create for the rest. And you say Cleveland is built for LeBron and his schemes.. next paragraph, you start saying that if Boston's offense is like Bron's Cleveland offense, it is suited for Kyrie's skills.. so... you mean to tell me that Cavs are suited for Kyrie's skills?

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Substitute the word "compared" with "instead".

Cleveland's offense/Bron-ball consists of nothing but parking 3-4 guys at the 3-point line, with LeBron driving in and scoring or kicking it out if the defense collapses. That's it. Maybe TT or someone else will come out and set a pick for LeBron, but it gets no more complex than that.

It generally diminishes the role and effectiveness of other stars (which is why guys like Bosh/Love and even Wade at some points). Bron-ball makes it harder for other stars to succeed, but makes role-players look better than they are.

And it's effective - I'm not saying it sucks. It's obviously very tough for teams to stop it. But it is completely different than a free-flowing offense where there's a ton of off-ball motion. A guy like Kyrie needs the ball in his hands, and if his team is accustomed to standing like traffic cones at the 3-point line while his coach is encouraging him to attack attack attack, you can see how it might be tough for him to get others involved.

He doesn't have the arm strength nor accuracy to throw cross-court bullet passes to the open man like LeBron does. Remember the 2016 finals game 7 in the final seconds when Kyrie drove in but passed to a cutting LeBron who tried to dunk on Draymond and was fouled? Kyrie can make those kind of passes, but he cannot make the cross-court lasers that is so effective with Bron-ball. He's not as good of a passer as LeBron, so a movement-oriented offense might be more suited for him.

valade16
10-11-2017, 11:40 AM
The problem with this idea that Kyrie's playing style is a product of LeBron ball is we know it's not. Prior to Bron and whenever Bron was off the court, Kyrie still played a very heavy ISO style. His clear natural tendency is to dribble the ball and penetrate or shoot off the dribble.

Can he change and fit into a different offense? Possibly yes, but it's wrong to say the only reason Kyrie is so ISO is because of LeBron. We know that isn't true.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2017, 12:10 PM
The problem with this idea that Kyrie's playing style is a product of LeBron ball is we know it's not. Prior to Bron and whenever Bron was off the court, Kyrie still played a very heavy ISO style. His clear natural tendency is to dribble the ball and penetrate or shoot off the dribble.

Can he change and fit into a different offense? Possibly yes, but it's wrong to say the only reason Kyrie is so ISO is because of LeBron. We know that isn't true.

Kyrie being the only star player for the Cavs in his first 3 years in the NBA (while being encouraged to be the savior and put up shots) - yes, of course he was doing a lot of ISO. That's to be expected.

At the same time, he was increasing his assist totals every single year until LeBron returned. 6.1APG prior to LBJ's return - that's not the stats of a complete play-making black hole. He can create for others, just not at the level of the traditional all-star point guards.

LeBron is obviously not the ONLY reason for Kyrie's ISO tendencies. A lot of it has to do with his mentality. But you can't act like Bron-ball didn't have any impact whatsoever on Kyrie's ISO'ing and passing. Just last year, Kyrie averaged 5.8APG while being encouraged by Lue to be extremely aggressive. That 5.8APG is the most assists any teammate of LeBron has EVER had. If you look at Kyrie's assist numbers:

Year 1: 5.4
Year 2: 5.9
Year 3: 6.1
Year 4 (LeBron's return): 5.2

Now look at Wade's:

2007: 6.9
2008: 7.5
2009: 6.5
2010 (LeBron joining the Heat): 4.6

It's not a coincidence that players are not as good at play-making/passing for teammates when LeBron comes in. And that's not just assist stats either:

Kyrie in 2013-14: 56.5 passes on average, 6.1 assists on average
Kyrie in 2014-15 (LBJ returns): 55.7 passes, 5.2 assists on average
Kyrie in 2015-16: 51.2 passes, 4.7 assists on average
Kyrie in 2016-17: 52.2 passes, 5.8 assists on average

LeBron, in the 2016-17 season also saw an enormous increase in passes per game, largely because he started taking on more of a distributor role (instead of an attacking one). He's getting older and passing more, while Kyrie averaged a career high in PPG while he was asked to look for his shot by Lue.

I guess my point is: Kyrie has never been a great passer and never will be. But his passing is not as bad as people make it out to be. No one seems to account for LeBron's impact in those regards and stats aside. I'd bet money the ball dominance thing absolutely played a role in Kyrie's decision to ask for a trade, as he has never quite fit into the Bron-ball scheme of our offense. Blatt tried to create an offense but it failed pretty miserably.

kdspurman
10-11-2017, 12:32 PM
Kyrie being the only star player for the Cavs in his first 3 years in the NBA (while being encouraged to be the savior and put up shots) - yes, of course he was doing a lot of ISO. That's to be expected.

At the same time, he was increasing his assist totals every single year until LeBron returned. 6.1APG prior to LBJ's return - that's not the stats of a complete play-making black hole. He can create for others, just not at the level of the traditional all-star point guards.

LeBron is obviously not the ONLY reason for Kyrie's ISO tendencies. A lot of it has to do with his mentality. But you can't act like Bron-ball didn't have any impact whatsoever on Kyrie's ISO'ing and passing. Just last year, Kyrie averaged 5.8APG while being encouraged by Lue to be extremely aggressive. That 5.8APG is the most assists any teammate of LeBron has EVER had. If you look at Kyrie's assist numbers:

Year 1: 5.4
Year 2: 5.9
Year 3: 6.1
Year 4 (LeBron's return): 5.2

Now look at Wade's:

2007: 6.9
2008: 7.5
2009: 6.5
2010 (LeBron joining the Heat): 4.6

It's not a coincidence that players are not as good at play-making/passing for teammates when LeBron comes in. And that's not just assist stats either:

Kyrie in 2013-14: 56.5 passes on average, 6.1 assists on average
Kyrie in 2014-15 (LBJ returns): 55.7 passes, 5.2 assists on average
Kyrie in 2015-16: 51.2 passes, 4.7 assists on average
Kyrie in 2016-17: 52.2 passes, 5.8 assists on average

LeBron, in the 2016-17 season also saw an enormous increase in passes per game, largely because he started taking on more of a distributor role (instead of an attacking one). He's getting older and passing more, while Kyrie averaged a career high in PPG while he was asked to look for his shot by Lue.

I guess my point is: Kyrie has never been a great passer and never will be. But his passing is not as bad as people make it out to be. No one seems to account for LeBron's impact in those regards and stats aside. I'd bet money the ball dominance thing absolutely played a role in Kyrie's decision to ask for a trade, as he has never quite fit into the Bron-ball scheme of our offense. Blatt tried to create an offense but it failed pretty miserably.

Agreed on all.

I also saw this in an article not too long ago:


With the four-time league MVP on the court, Irving produced 31.8 points and 7.7 assists per 100 possessions during the 2016-17 campaign, lower than the 49.3 points and 8.9 assists per 100 possessions with James on the bench. His effective field goal percentage was also a near match at 53.9 and 52.1 percent, respectively. It’s also worth noting that Irving’s increased production came with a higher workload, using 41.8 percent of the team’s possessions with James on the bench compared with using 26.8 percent of possessions with James on the court.

Sustaining a usage rate of more than 40 percent is virtually unheard of — only Westbrook topped that mark in a single season — but his point and assist rates per 100 possessions away from James puts him in elite company: Since 1979-80, only Michael Jordan, James, Curry and Isaiah Thomas have averaged more than 40 points and eight assists per 100 possessions with a 52 percent eFG% for an entire season.

It's not like he just went completely ghost and wasn't an effective player when Lebron sat. Worth noting (i believe) that Love probably sat a lot of that time with Lebron as well. He certainly has his flaws, but IMO he gets way too much flack for the records/#'s thrown out there without Lebron.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2017/07/25/the-one-red-flag-a-team-trading-for-kyrie-irving-needs-to-know/?utm_term=.341f0b5229ee

hugepatsfan
10-11-2017, 01:31 PM
Irving's got a ton of flaws. It's definitely fair to be critical of him. He doesn't deserve to be discussed in this thread at all TBH. I think one random mentioned him. He's not top 10. But when you get down to the top 20ish area everyone has flaws. There's things they all can't do and Irving is in that group IMO with things he can't do or isn't good at.

Not leading trash CLE rosters to good records when he was 19, 20 and 21 is certainly not one of those criticisms. I see people say "he couldn't win before Lebron" and everyone who reads that gets dumber each time it's posted. Lebron James and MJ, the motha ****ing GOATs, couldn't get over .500 in their first 3 years (I think MJ was hurt for one though). It's just a straight up STUPID argument to make against Kyrie.

valade16
10-11-2017, 02:16 PM
Irving's got a ton of flaws. It's definitely fair to be critical of him. He doesn't deserve to be discussed in this thread at all TBH. I think one random mentioned him. He's not top 10. But when you get down to the top 20ish area everyone has flaws. There's things they all can't do and Irving is in that group IMO with things he can't do or isn't good at.

Not leading trash CLE rosters to good records when he was 19, 20 and 21 is certainly not one of those criticisms. I see people say "he couldn't win before Lebron" and everyone who reads that gets dumber each time it's posted. Lebron James and MJ, the motha ****ing GOATs, couldn't get over .500 in their first 3 years (I think MJ was hurt for one though). It's just a straight up STUPID argument to make against Kyrie.

Might want to check your numbers:

LeBron
Year 1: 35-47
Year 2: 42-40
Year 3: 50-32 2nd round loss in 7

As for MJ, he was at 38-44 year 1, hurt year 2, 40-42 year 3 and 50-32 year 4.

Kyrie was at 21-45, 24-58, 33-49.

I think your argument that you can't hold Kyrie not being able to win with a young roster at such a young age has merit, but factually you are incorrect.

hugepatsfan
10-11-2017, 03:29 PM
Might want to check your numbers:

LeBron
Year 1: 35-47
Year 2: 42-40
Year 3: 50-32 2nd round loss in 7

As for MJ, he was at 38-44 year 1, hurt year 2, 40-42 year 3 and 50-32 year 4.

Kyrie was at 21-45, 24-58, 33-49.

I think your argument that you can't hold Kyrie not being able to win with a young roster at such a young age has merit, but factually you are incorrect.

Yeah I was off. I had done it before with the specific breakdown you mentioned. Lebron couldn't get his team to the playoffs until year 3 and MJ couldn't get them over .500 until year 4 (year 3 counting injury). I just generalized a little too simply in that last statement.

larger point is though it's just an absurd argument to make against him that he didn't get a lot of wins on garbage teams before and right after he could even buy a ****ing drink lol

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 03:45 PM
This is such a dumb criticism. He was on a trash team as a 19, 20 and 21 year-old. Even MJ and LBJ couldn't get their teams to .500 in their first 3 years. Irving has flaws but the bolded comment is an ABSURD argument to make against him.

not in response to an absurd claim that "Irving is considered a failure if he doesn't make the conference finals".

If someone is going to use team success as their sole barometer of a player, I get to as well. See how that works?

I don't expect a rookie, or 2nd year guy to lead a team to a lot of wins, unless it was an outlier (think Bulls jumping 12 teams to get Rose, or the Spurs tanking to get Duncan). My response is mostly right at a specific poster I tend to have an issue with.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 03:46 PM
Irving is not top 10 but 15-20 players puts him in the 23-28 range and he should be an option before that. Off the top of my head I'll say he's off the board before that but not ready to 100% say. Definitely on the board though.

exactly. The mere fact that you actually have to think about whether he is a top 25 player should tell you he doesn't belong anywhere near this spot, or conversation for that matter.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 03:46 PM
I'm gonna love seeing how Kyrie does with Boston. Because in Cleveland, the team is not only built for LeBron with its roster, but it's built with its scheme.

If Brad can have a more free-flowing offense compared to Cleveland's Bron-ball (spread out, everyone parks at the 3-point line and wait for the drive-kick) then it might be more suited for Kyrie's skills. Boston's offense just might get him to be a bit better at making other players better.

No matter which side you're on, I feel like most if not all the Kyrie-related questions will be answered this year. I just don't see his on/off being as bad as it was with Cleveland.

well, we know you can play PG for Brad Stevens and not guard anyone, so that should help him..

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 03:47 PM
It's amazing to me that anyone is stupid enough to believe an isolation player with no other good skills outside of scoring is even a top 20 player, let alone top 10.

buckets cloud people's view of how good a guy is. Always has. Hell GM's have paid guys millions making that same mistake.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 04:48 PM
I don't think those are the same at all. He's a vet now. He's played 6 years and been to 3 straight finals. As the #2, yes, but still a vet nonetheless. And he's replacing a lesser player (IT) on a team that made the Conf. Finals last year and upgraded around that position. So it's pretty fair to say if BOS doesn't make the Conf. Finals that Irving failed IMO. Obviously that's somewhat conditional - let's say Hayward/Horford both are hurt, Brown/Tatum are busts, Smart doesn't develop, etc. but Irving individually balls the **** out and leads them to the 2nd round... that's not a failure. But fully healthy and BOS misses the ECF - that's a black mark on Irving. Basketball is a team sport but it's a star player league so they carry the brunt of that blame. It's totally fair for a player of Irving's caliber.

The 19-21 year old part of his career... nah, not fair to judge him on win/loss there. He was a baby and the team sucked. He wasn't at the stage yet where you start holding that against him nor was on a team he could realistically win with. His career is in a way different place now and his team situation is way different. He has personal accountability for wins/losses now that he didn't at ages 19-21 being flanked by those crap rosters.

If the Celtics don't make the conference finals, it's on more than just Irving.

Look, he isn't a top 20-25 player to me. He is super incomplete, doesn't defend, and is really only good (and damn good at it) one thing. Getting buckets. I don't think he is in the upper tier of PG's, and we have already spent exponentially too much time talking about him at #8 in the game. And I contributed to that..

hugepatsfan
10-11-2017, 04:48 PM
not in response to an absurd claim that "Irving is considered a failure if he doesn't make the conference finals".

If someone is going to use team success as their sole barometer of a player, I get to as well. See how that works?

I don't expect a rookie, or 2nd year guy to lead a team to a lot of wins, unless it was an outlier (think Bulls jumping 12 teams to get Rose, or the Spurs tanking to get Duncan). My response is mostly right at a specific poster I tend to have an issue with.

I don't think those are the same at all. He's a vet now. He's played 6 years and been to 3 straight finals. As the #2, yes, but still a vet nonetheless. And he's replacing a lesser player (IT) on a team that made the Conf. Finals last year and upgraded around that position. So it's pretty fair to say if BOS doesn't make the Conf. Finals that Irving failed IMO. Obviously that's somewhat conditional - let's say Hayward/Horford both are hurt, Brown/Tatum are busts, Smart doesn't develop, etc. but Irving individually balls the **** out and leads them to the 2nd round... that's not a failure. But fully healthy and BOS misses the ECF - that's a black mark on Irving. Basketball is a team sport but it's a star player league so they carry the brunt of that blame. It's totally fair for a player of Irving's caliber.

The 19-21 year old part of his career... nah, not fair to judge him on win/loss there. He was a baby and the team sucked. He wasn't at the stage yet where you start holding that against him nor was on a team he could realistically win with. His career is in a way different place now and his team situation is way different. He has personal accountability for wins/losses now that he didn't at ages 19-21 being flanked by those crap rosters.

mngopher35
10-11-2017, 05:16 PM
I don't think those are the same at all. He's a vet now. He's played 6 years and been to 3 straight finals. As the #2, yes, but still a vet nonetheless. And he's replacing a lesser player (IT) on a team that made the Conf. Finals last year and upgraded around that position. So it's pretty fair to say if BOS doesn't make the Conf. Finals that Irving failed IMO. Obviously that's somewhat conditional - let's say Hayward/Horford both are hurt, Brown/Tatum are busts, Smart doesn't develop, etc. but Irving individually balls the **** out and leads them to the 2nd round... that's not a failure. But fully healthy and BOS misses the ECF - that's a black mark on Irving. Basketball is a team sport but it's a star player league so they carry the brunt of that blame. It's totally fair for a player of Irving's caliber.

The 19-21 year old part of his career... nah, not fair to judge him on win/loss there. He was a baby and the team sucked. He wasn't at the stage yet where you start holding that against him nor was on a team he could realistically win with. His career is in a way different place now and his team situation is way different. He has personal accountability for wins/losses now that he didn't at ages 19-21 being flanked by those crap rosters.

Someone posted that because he has or should make the conference finals it put him over Davis/Greak Freak etc for not making it there.

I do think Kyrie will excel a little more under Stevens and with a guy like Hayward next to him. Very interested to see if he can jump up at all now given the new situation but like most have said this is too early to be talking a ton about Irving ranking wise lol.

I think I gotta go with Giannis here on the poll given his level of play and improvements each year. Really starting to explode on the offensive end with efficiency and playmaking.

FlashBolt
10-11-2017, 08:43 PM
buckets cloud people's view of how good a guy is. Always has. Hell GM's have paid guys millions making that same mistake.

Wolves just mdae that mistake..