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poleandreel
10-07-2017, 10:42 PM
I'm nominating JR. Dude is money from 3, has become a very underrated perimeter defender (I could argue that he's a top 10 perimeter defender right now), and isn't afraid to take and make big shots (saved the cavs in game 7 of the finals in 2016).

Will be a crime if Wade starts over him

poleandreel
10-07-2017, 10:44 PM
Should also mention that when the Cavs were .500 in the 2nd half of last season, JR missed 75% of those games with a thumb injury

poleandreel
10-07-2017, 10:46 PM
“I’ve never seen anybody better at pickup basketball than JR Smith,” Kanter says. “In a five-on-five game in the summer time, I’ll take JR Smith over everybody.”

Why?

“He just plays with so much confidence,” Kanter says. “He hits these crazy shots—step-backs, drives, hook shots—where everybody just looks at each other and goes, ‘Did he just make that?'”


Read more at http://www.slamonline.com/nba/enes-kanter-jr-smith-never-seen-anybody-better-pickup-basketball/#sWQQWC9vhJSv7GF7.99

ewing
10-08-2017, 12:26 AM
Isiah Thomas


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mrblisterdundee
10-08-2017, 12:55 AM
I'm nominating JR. Dude is money from 3, has become a very underrated perimeter defender (I could argue that he's a top 10 perimeter defender right now), and isn't afraid to take and make big shots (saved the cavs in game 7 of the finals in 2016).

Will be a crime if Wade starts over him

I think he should start over Wade too. He's a legitimate 3-and-D specialist with way more athleticism left.
Khris Middleton is another 3-and-D guy who seems like one of the most underrated players, maybe because he was injured this past season. The guy is 25 years old, 6'8" with a 6'11" wingspan, shoots 40 percent from three, can competently defend three to four positions and has improved all but last season at passing the ball.

Scoots
10-08-2017, 11:54 AM
K. C. P.

Heediot
10-08-2017, 12:28 PM
Norman Powell on the Raptors. He is starting caliber. That deal he just got will turn out to be a crazy steal.

Scoots
10-08-2017, 12:32 PM
Norman Powell on the Raptors. He is starting caliber. That deal he just got will turn out to be a crazy steal.

Good call.

5ass
10-08-2017, 08:31 PM
K. C. P.

Do you think he was the best (or most impactful) player on the Pistons last year?

Scoots
10-08-2017, 10:26 PM
Do you think he was the best (or most impactful) player on the Pistons last year?

No. But he's rated lower than his level of skill. The question is who is most underrated/

tredigs
10-08-2017, 11:47 PM
Garry Harris based on contract reactions on here. He will shock a lot of you that did not know he existed prior to that thread.

FlashBolt
10-09-2017, 12:15 AM
“I’ve never seen anybody better at pickup basketball than JR Smith,” Kanter says. “In a five-on-five game in the summer time, I’ll take JR Smith over everybody.”

Why?

“He just plays with so much confidence,” Kanter says. “He hits these crazy shots—step-backs, drives, hook shots—where everybody just looks at each other and goes, ‘Did he just make that?'”


Read more at http://www.slamonline.com/nba/enes-kanter-jr-smith-never-seen-anybody-better-pickup-basketball/#sWQQWC9vhJSv7GF7.99

That's because pickup ball doesn't involve much strategy and just guys jacking up shots left and right. In a game where the team is trying to actually stop you, then you're not going to see J.R. perform at his best.

Bostonjorge
10-09-2017, 01:36 AM
Isiah Thomas


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Easily Isiah. He’s eliminated top plays in the playoffs and it’s been on his back. Still gets under ranked extremely. I pick Isiah to who makes JR Smith easily replaceable for the Cavs.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2017, 09:16 AM
Rudy Gobert, or DeAndre Jordan probably.

ewing
10-09-2017, 09:35 AM
Easily Isiah. He’s eliminated top plays in the playoffs and it’s been on his back. Still gets under ranked extremely. I pick Isiah to who makes JR Smith easily replaceable for the Cavs.

last year at the start of the year I said Isiah easy. He went out and proved it (1 seed, ECFs, 29 a night, best 4th quarter scorer in the league) but somehow he is still the most underrated player around here.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2017, 09:45 AM
Isiah Thomas


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under, not over

Hawkeye15
10-09-2017, 09:47 AM
last year at the start of the year I said Isiah easy. He went out and proved it (1 seed, ECFs, 29 a night, best 4th quarter scorer in the league) but somehow he is still the most underrated player around here.

he made 2nd team all NBA, ahead of plenty of players better than he is. How is he underrated? He and Irving are the most overrated at their positions.

Scoots
10-09-2017, 09:56 AM
Easily Isiah. He’s eliminated top plays in the playoffs and it’s been on his back. Still gets under ranked extremely. I pick Isiah to who makes JR Smith easily replaceable for the Cavs.

He got MVP votes ... don't know that IT is underrated anymore.

Scoots
10-09-2017, 09:56 AM
Rudy Gobert, or DeAndre Jordan probably.

DPOY finalists are not underrated.

ewing
10-09-2017, 09:58 AM
He got MVP votes ... don't know that IT is underrated anymore.

He is on this board


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ewing
10-09-2017, 09:59 AM
he made 2nd team all NBA, ahead of plenty of players better than he is. How is he underrated? He and Irving are the most overrated at their positions.

Bc is absolutely deserved to be an all nba player last year


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Jetsguy
10-09-2017, 10:05 AM
John Wall

Hawkeye15
10-09-2017, 10:14 AM
Bc is absolutely deserved to be an all nba player last year


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that is fine if you think that he was worthy, I don't. My point is, how on earth can an all NBA player be underrated when they are clearly below the top tier of guys? Wouldn't that be rated just right?

Hawkeye15
10-09-2017, 10:15 AM
DPOY finalists are not underrated.

they sure can be. Many times, a guy will be overlooked for other accolades, because they are getting love in another area.

warfelg
10-09-2017, 10:17 AM
Robert Covington.

WaDe03
10-09-2017, 11:17 AM
Based on the OP, Wade.

threeforthewin
10-09-2017, 11:25 AM
Underrated... gosh that's hard. I feel like most players have some form of respect, but maybe Terrance Ross from Magic? He has a few games where he explodes, and a lot where he's average.

Scoots
10-09-2017, 11:59 AM
He is on this board

He finished 5th of every player in the NBA in MVP voting ... ahead of Curry, Durant, Giannis, Wall, etc ... he's not under-rated. By that measure he's over-rated.

Scoots
10-09-2017, 12:00 PM
John Wall

He finished 7th in MVP voting last year above KD. Not underrated. That's about right.

ewing
10-09-2017, 12:50 PM
He finished 5th of every player in the NBA in MVP voting ... ahead of Curry, Durant, Giannis, Wall, etc ... he's not under-rated. By that measure he's over-rated.

he finished 5th in MVP voting (deservedly) and he isn't even a choice on this boards top players poll.

hugepatsfan
10-09-2017, 01:27 PM
He finished 5th of every player in the NBA in MVP voting ... ahead of Curry, Durant, Giannis, Wall, etc ... he's not under-rated. By that measure he's over-rated.

He specifically said underrated on this board. None of us vote for MVP so that's a completely irrelevant point to what he's saying.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-09-2017, 01:37 PM
Khris Middleton. He's like the perfect role player ever.

FlashBolt
10-09-2017, 05:15 PM
Khris Middleton. He's like the perfect role player ever.

Not underrated if due gets injured like last season. The previous season before? Sure. Most fans didn't even know who he was and he was balling.

Scoots
10-09-2017, 09:46 PM
He specifically said underrated on this board. None of us vote for MVP so that's a completely irrelevant point to what he's saying.

The OP? I don't see it. The title is just "Most underrated player in the league currently".

omdigga
10-10-2017, 08:56 AM
Buddy Hield.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 09:10 AM
edit: nm

hugepatsfan
10-10-2017, 09:25 AM
The OP? I don't see it. The title is just "Most underrated player in the league currently".

No, not the OP. The poster you responded to. You quoted someone who said specifically that he's underrated on this board and cited factors that have nothing to do with any members of this board. It just didn't make sense as a reply to that comment at all.

prodigy
10-10-2017, 10:25 AM
that is fine if you think that he was worthy, I don't. My point is, how on earth can an all NBA player be underrated when they are clearly below the top tier of guys? Wouldn't that be rated just right?

Well you flat out said you think there are many players better then him. So for that comment IT is def the most underrated player in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 10:28 AM
Well you flat out said you think there are many players better then him. So for that comment IT is def the most underrated player in the NBA.

the thread question is, "who is underrated". I take that to mean, in general.

A guy who made 2nd team all NBA, and isn't a legit MVP candidate, is not overrated. Like at all.

My personal feelings have no bearing on his overall ranking, consensus wise.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 11:10 AM
No, not the OP. The poster you responded to. You quoted someone who said specifically that he's underrated on this board and cited factors that have nothing to do with any members of this board. It just didn't make sense as a reply to that comment at all.

Okay, fair enough. I still don't think he's under-rated even on this board.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 12:33 PM
Well you flat out said you think there are many players better then him. So for that comment IT is def the most underrated player in the NBA.

In what way is an All-NBA 2nd Team player underrated when he isn't even top five at his position?

Westbrook
CP3
Harden
Curry
Wall
Lillard
Kyrie
Conley

He's not underrated. He had a great season but there are about 20 players who I think are probably better than IT.

I named 8 above.

LeBron
Kawhi
KD
PG
Butler
Draymond
Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
KAT
Marc Gasol
Klay

Then there are others who are close such as Gordon Hayward, Gobert, Blake..

You guys are giving IT too much credit. He was lights out offensively but he couldn't defend. Optimistic about him when he can help Cavs score without LeBron but I'd take John Wall over him easily..

Vee-Rex
10-10-2017, 12:53 PM
In what way is an All-NBA 2nd Team player underrated when he isn't even top five at his position?

Westbrook
CP3
Harden
Curry
Wall
Lillard
Kyrie
Conley

He's not underrated. He had a great season but there are about 20 players who I think are probably better than IT.

I named 8 above.

LeBron
Kawhi
KD
PG
Butler
Draymond
Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
KAT
Marc Gasol
Klay

Then there are others who are close such as Gordon Hayward, Gobert, Blake..

You guys are giving IT too much credit. He was lights out offensively but he couldn't defend. Optimistic about him when he can help Cavs score without LeBron but I'd take John Wall over him easily..

It was ewing who called IT a top 3 player in the league last year.

he will not be amused by your post

ewing
10-10-2017, 01:37 PM
It was ewing who called IT a top 3 player in the league last year.

he will not be amused by your post


If I did i might have been trolling but just a little. He was clearly one of the best players in the NBA last year. I really don't see an argument against that other then some undefined ESPN stat people like to trot out. His size can be taken advantage of when he gets isolated but he is actually a competent team defender that played 30 plus mins a night on the celtics year before last when they were near the top of the league in defense. He didn't stop playing D the Celtics style changed and they got even smaller. Some of that allowed teams to get him isolated a bit more but there really isn't an argument for 1/2 the guys Flash is trotting out being more impactful. I mean does he really think Mike Conley had a better year? Half the guys on his PG list have never come close to what IT did last year

Scoots
10-10-2017, 01:52 PM
If I did i might have been trolling but just a little. He was clearly one of the best players in the NBA last year. I really don't see an argument against that other then some undefined ESPN stat people like to trot out. His size can be taken advantage of when he gets isolated but he is actually a competent team defender that played 30 plus mins a night on the celtics year before last when they were near the top of the league in defense. He didn't stop playing D the Celtics style changed and they got even smaller. Some of that allowed teams to get him isolated a bit more but there really isn't an argument for 1/2 the guys Flash is trotting out being more impactful. I mean does he really think Mike Conley had a better year? Half the guys on his PG list have never come close to what IT did last year

I guess your point adds a question. Is it for one game, one year, or one career? Cause right now IT isn't going to play anytime soon and his future is murky for sure.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 02:47 PM
If I did i might have been trolling but just a little. He was clearly one of the best players in the NBA last year. I really don't see an argument against that other then some undefined ESPN stat people like to trot out. His size can be taken advantage of when he gets isolated but he is actually a competent team defender that played 30 plus mins a night on the celtics year before last when they were near the top of the league in defense. He didn't stop playing D the Celtics style changed and they got even smaller. Some of that allowed teams to get him isolated a bit more but there really isn't an argument for 1/2 the guys Flash is trotting out being more impactful. I mean does he really think Mike Conley had a better year? Half the guys on his PG list have never come close to what IT did last year

How is IT even remotely competent as a team defender? He's such a liability that the Celtics have to play small just so they can try to switch up on other players. I didn't say more impactful but I do think they are better on that standpoint that those guys will have an impact both offensively/defensively that can't be matched by IT overall. Don't get me wrong, what he was doing with the Celtics was amazing but his production was measured by shot attempts and not enough of anything else.

valade16
10-10-2017, 03:04 PM
Who cares if you can have an impact on both offense and defense if the other player has a greater impact overall?

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 03:43 PM
Who cares if you can have an impact on both offense and defense if the other player has a greater impact overall?

Because IT was in a circumstance in which his team was good overall but they lacked a 1st option and so IT became that void and was just scoring for them. But IT on a championship team would be difficult to integrate and that is where you see his value diminish because his perceived dominance would not translate to the same impact for a championship contender. A guy like Marc Gasol - who may not have been more impactful than IT for his respective team, would be far more impactful than IT on a championship contender. I mean, let's not forget that the Celtics actually played better without IT against the Cavs.. or how IT was easily stopped in the playoffs by the Cavs.

Bostonjorge
10-10-2017, 04:29 PM
Isiah is a dangerous weapon in the 4th. That’s a great weapon for any team to have. Remember walls 0 points in the 4th in game 7? Cost Wizards the season. Isiah’s 4th quarter scoring is a weapon on any team.

C-Dub
10-10-2017, 04:30 PM
Kris Middleton.

stephcurry182
10-10-2017, 04:35 PM
Kevin Love. He does the little things

hugepatsfan
10-10-2017, 04:56 PM
Because IT was in a circumstance in which his team was good overall but they lacked a 1st option and so IT became that void and was just scoring for them. But IT on a championship team would be difficult to integrate and that is where you see his value diminish because his perceived dominance would not translate to the same impact for a championship contender. A guy like Marc Gasol - who may not have been more impactful than IT for his respective team, would be far more impactful than IT on a championship contender. I mean, let's not forget that the Celtics actually played better without IT against the Cavs.. or how IT was easily stopped in the playoffs by the Cavs.

Great points about ranking individual players for talent vs. how they fit. On the playoffs though... IT hurt his hip against WAS and then was clearly hobbled against CLE. So yes he was shut down and yes BOS played better without the hobbled version of him. But that's kind of cherry picking circumstances to make your point. All the big picture points you make are good though.

ewing
10-10-2017, 05:06 PM
How is IT even remotely competent as a team defender? He's such a liability that the Celtics have to play small just so they can try to switch up on other players. I didn't say more impactful but I do think they are better on that standpoint that those guys will have an impact both offensively/defensively that can't be matched by IT overall. Don't get me wrong, what he was doing with the Celtics was amazing but his production was measured by shot attempts and not enough of anything else.


He rotates well,, he contest well, he doesn't get lost, he generally stays in front. he does what he is supposed to do. guys both back him down and shoot over him though. his size makes him a a liability in man situations. he is not a bad team defender. Also, how are the Celtics forced to go small so they can switch? If they had a bigger PG would they played Hartford at the 2. The Celtics not having a physical presence or shot blocking inside is what exposed Thomas most. Look at how much better the Blazer D got when they added someone that could cut off people pushing around there little guards. You put a giant behind a midget he becomes a better defender.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 05:15 PM
He rotates well,, he contest well, he doesn't get lost, he generally stays in front. he does what he is supposed to do. guys both back him down and shoot over him though. his size makes him a a liability in man situations. he is not a bad team defender. Also, how are the Celtics forced to go small so they can switch? If they had a bigger PG would they played Hartford at the 2. The Celtics not having a physical presence or shot blocking inside is what exposed Thomas most. Look at how much better the Blazer D got when they added someone that could cut off people pushing around there little guards. You put a giant behind a midget he becomes a better defender.

Competent means he is capable, though. IT is not capable. Does he try on defense? Yeah, he does hustle but hustle doesn't mean you can defend.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 05:21 PM
Competent means he is capable, though. IT is not capable. Does he try on defense? Yeah, he does hustle but hustle doesn't mean you can defend.

Being physically limited but giving it 100% is a lot better than being the best athlete in the game but not trying at all.

That said, IT's physical size means he's going to struggle to be the factor that significantly reduces a shooter's accuracy.

hugepatsfan
10-10-2017, 05:39 PM
Competent means he is capable, though. IT is not capable. Does he try on defense? Yeah, he does hustle but hustle doesn't mean you can defend.

It's a huge difference for team defense though. You simply can't recover against good teams from a guy ****ing around out there and giving up wide open shots. Even with IT's size liability teams aren't going to shoot 100% when they get those one on ones with him. It makes it so that while he might be the easiest guy to score on one one against within a team concept he isn't the least effective defender in the league.

Vee-Rex
10-10-2017, 05:56 PM
He rotates well,, he contest well, he doesn't get lost, he generally stays in front. he does what he is supposed to do. guys both back him down and shoot over him though. his size makes him a a liability in man situations. he is not a bad team defender. Also, how are the Celtics forced to go small so they can switch? If they had a bigger PG would they played Hartford at the 2. The Celtics not having a physical presence or shot blocking inside is what exposed Thomas most. Look at how much better the Blazer D got when they added someone that could cut off people pushing around there little guards. You put a giant behind a midget he becomes a better defender.

Believe it or not, I don't think IT is as bad of a defender as people make him out to be. They tend to look at DBPM or DRPM and slap the "worst defender" label on him but I don't think that's the case.

The difference between he and Kyrie is that he actually gives more effort. He contests and fights for loose balls. Never question his hustle - whereas Kyrie gives absolutely no effort on defense unless it's at the end of a tight game.

IT grades out better as a defender than Kyrie using SportVu tracking. His perimeter defense is at a -1.2% net differential. Guys he guards at the 3-point line normally shoots 36.5% but it drops down to 35.3% when he's guarding them. That's like... pretty damn good.

The only problem is when guys get into the paint on IT. He gives up a huge +12.7 net differential. 60.5 FG% in the paint turns into 73.2 FG% when Isaiah is guarding them. But that's to be expected - he's only 5'9. His only chance is to go for the strip.

Isaiah gives up an overall +1.2FG% to the guys he's guarding. Kyrie gives up an overall +5.2FG% (+5.9 net differential at the 3-point line - yuuuuck).

Remember the LeBron come-fly-with-me pic with IT clinging on while he dunked?

http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/bil-lebron-ithomas.jpg

Regardless of how it looked/turned out, at least IT tried. Can't say Kyrie would've been anywhere near that frame if he was the one on defense.

I mean, it only makes sense that when IT sat for Boston, the defense would be better. Usually when he came off the floor a damn good defender replaced him (Bradley, Smart). That has a way of skewing things and so his DBPM is worse than what it should be. Replace him with a completely average defender and that would be a better representation of where he's at.

I like SportVu tracking. I think it's a more accurate depiction of where guys are, especially for something as difficult to measure as defense. You can really see how a guy does on specific areas of the court (someone like Draymond is a defensive juggernaut EVERYWHERE and his numbers are beyond impressive).

ewing
10-10-2017, 06:26 PM
Believe it or not, I don't think IT is as bad of a defender as people make him out to be. They tend to look at DBPM or DRPM and slap the "worst defender" label on him but I don't think that's the case.

The difference between he and Kyrie is that he actually gives more effort. He contests and fights for loose balls. Never question his hustle - whereas Kyrie gives absolutely no effort on defense unless it's at the end of a tight game.

IT grades out better as a defender than Kyrie using SportVu tracking. His perimeter defense is at a -1.2% net differential. Guys he guards at the 3-point line normally shoots 36.5% but it drops down to 35.3% when he's guarding them. That's like... pretty damn good.

The only problem is when guys get into the paint on IT. He gives up a huge +12.7 net differential. 60.5 FG% in the paint turns into 73.2 FG% when Isaiah is guarding them. But that's to be expected - he's only 5'9. His only chance is to go for the strip.

Isaiah gives up an overall +1.2FG% to the guys he's guarding. Kyrie gives up an overall +5.2FG% (+5.9 net differential at the 3-point line - yuuuuck).

Remember the LeBron come-fly-with-me pic with IT clinging on while he dunked?

http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/bil-lebron-ithomas.jpg

Regardless of how it looked/turned out, at least IT tried. Can't say Kyrie would've been anywhere near that frame if he was the one on defense.

I mean, it only makes sense that when IT sat for Boston, the defense would be better. Usually when he came off the floor a damn good defender replaced him (Bradley, Smart). That has a way of skewing things and so his DBPM is worse than what it should be. Replace him with a completely average defender and that would be a better representation of where he's at.

I like SportVu tracking. I think it's a more accurate depiction of where guys are, especially for something as difficult to measure as defense. You can really see how a guy does on specific areas of the court (someone like Draymond is a defensive juggernaut EVERYWHERE and his numbers are beyond impressive).

Thanks V-Rex I think is a very good post and supports what I see with my eyes. Thomas gets pushed down and get shot over sometimes. This is particularly true inside. How to do cover for a little man like that? you have bigs with a paint presence. You put Deke behind AI and you have the best defensive team in the league. I was a big supporter the idea of Boston trading for Noel when he was available and i think it would have helped erased a lot of the opportunities teams had to score deep in on Thomas. Unfortunately Clev doesn't have that either so teams will still be able to expose his weakness more then you would like. Still, overall the notion that he is the worst defender in the league is off base as is the one that he was in an ideal spot to cover his weaknesses IMO.

ewing
10-10-2017, 06:30 PM
Competent means he is capable, though. IT is not capable. Does he try on defense? Yeah, he does hustle but hustle doesn't mean you can defend.

he is capable is all spots? No. Is he capable? Yes. Boston was one the best defensive teams in the league year before last with Thomas playing big mins. sometimes he will be exposed but the fact that he is a good team defender makes him capable overall

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 06:37 PM
he is capable is all spots? No. Is he capable? Yes. Boston was one the best defensive teams in the league year before last with Thomas playing big mins. sometimes he will be exposed but the fact that he is a good team defender makes him capable overall

Competent: having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing.

He does not. He tries to play defense because he hustles for every play. I can hustle too. Doesn't translate to competent defense. AI hustled for steals.. is he a competent defender? Nope.

valade16
10-10-2017, 06:49 PM
V-Rex just made a fairly compelling case that IT is better than Kyrie defensively.

Pfeifer
10-10-2017, 07:02 PM
Jokic and Batum are both really underrated.

ewing
10-10-2017, 07:12 PM
Competent: having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing.

He does not. He tries to play defense because he hustles for every play. I can hustle too. Doesn't translate to competent defense. AI hustled for steals.. is he a competent defender? Nope.

the thing is stopping the other team from scoring not to never be overmatched. pretty soon you are going to paint most the players you listed above him as incompetent on D as well

ewing
10-10-2017, 07:13 PM
V-Rex just made a fairly compelling case that IT is better than Kyrie defensively.

i agree with him. I think Thomas is better and would be markly better if they both played on a team with a rim protector.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 07:21 PM
V-Rex just made a fairly compelling case that IT is better than Kyrie defensively.

They both suck defensively.

tp13baby
10-10-2017, 07:29 PM
Garry Harris based on contract reactions on here. He will shock a lot of you that did not know he existed prior to that thread.

I’ll call your Harris and raise you Will the Thrill Barton. Barton quickly was top 5 6th man 2 years ago, scores the ball, rebounds well for a guard and his points per iso possession ranked at the top in the league.

zn23
10-10-2017, 07:36 PM
Clint Capela.

EAGLES3658
10-10-2017, 09:22 PM
Avery Bradley.

JAZZNC
10-10-2017, 10:54 PM
In what way is an All-NBA 2nd Team player underrated when he isn't even top five at his position?

Westbrook
CP3
Harden
Curry
Wall
Lillard
Kyrie
Conley

He's not underrated. He had a great season but there are about 20 players who I think are probably better than IT.

I named 8 above.

LeBron
Kawhi
KD
PG
Butler
Draymond
Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
KAT
Marc Gasol
Klay

Then there are others who are close such as Gordon Hayward, Gobert, Blake..

You guys are giving IT too much credit. He was lights out offensively but he couldn't defend. Optimistic about him when he can help Cavs score without LeBron but I'd take John Wall over him easily..

I think this post reiterates what Hawkeye was saying about Gobert being underrated. A lot of people on this site probably wouldn't put him in the top 25 players in the league.

WaDe03
10-10-2017, 11:24 PM
Jokic and Batum are both really underrated.

Jokic is actually very overrated now. Get on twitter and a lot of the stat geeks have him top 10 or top 15. Saw someone comparing his first 2 seasons to LeBron and Jordan's.

WaDe03
10-10-2017, 11:26 PM
Kris Middleton.

So underrated that you spelled his name wrong.

JAZZNC
10-11-2017, 12:04 AM
Jokic is actually very overrated now. Get on twitter and a lot of the stat geeks have him top 10 or top 15. Saw someone comparing his first 2 seasons to LeBron and Jordan's.

Most definitely agree with ya on this one. It'll be interesting to see how he does with teams actually preparing for him and having to do it all year. He could certainly maintain or improve on whay he did last year but I wanna see it for a full year.

WaDe03
10-11-2017, 12:14 AM
Most definitely agree with ya on this one. It'll be interesting to see how he does with teams actually preparing for him and having to do it all year. He could certainly maintain or improve on whay he did last year but I wanna see it for a full year.

Yea same here. He's definitely a good player but it's got a little out of hand.

aman_13
10-11-2017, 01:21 AM
Believe it or not, I don't think IT is as bad of a defender as people make him out to be. They tend to look at DBPM or DRPM and slap the "worst defender" label on him but I don't think that's the case.

The difference between he and Kyrie is that he actually gives more effort. He contests and fights for loose balls. Never question his hustle - whereas Kyrie gives absolutely no effort on defense unless it's at the end of a tight game.

IT grades out better as a defender than Kyrie using SportVu tracking. His perimeter defense is at a -1.2% net differential. Guys he guards at the 3-point line normally shoots 36.5% but it drops down to 35.3% when he's guarding them. That's like... pretty damn good.

The only problem is when guys get into the paint on IT. He gives up a huge +12.7 net differential. 60.5 FG% in the paint turns into 73.2 FG% when Isaiah is guarding them. But that's to be expected - he's only 5'9. His only chance is to go for the strip.

Isaiah gives up an overall +1.2FG% to the guys he's guarding. Kyrie gives up an overall +5.2FG% (+5.9 net differential at the 3-point line - yuuuuck).

Remember the LeBron come-fly-with-me pic with IT clinging on while he dunked?

http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/bil-lebron-ithomas.jpg

Regardless of how it looked/turned out, at least IT tried. Can't say Kyrie would've been anywhere near that frame if he was the one on defense.

I mean, it only makes sense that when IT sat for Boston, the defense would be better. Usually when he came off the floor a damn good defender replaced him (Bradley, Smart). That has a way of skewing things and so his DBPM is worse than what it should be. Replace him with a completely average defender and that would be a better representation of where he's at.

I like SportVu tracking. I think it's a more accurate depiction of where guys are, especially for something as difficult to measure as defense. You can really see how a guy does on specific areas of the court (someone like Draymond is a defensive juggernaut EVERYWHERE and his numbers are beyond impressive).


I'd be more worried about the +12.7 in the paint, which is normally caused by switching.

When teams go small, best way to defend is by switching and IT deters teams from doing that at an optimal level. The same way LeBron made it so hard for Teague to stay on the court, he forced the ball on him every time and made the Pacers pay by getting easy baskets at the rim or throwing it out after doubling.

tp13baby
10-11-2017, 01:55 AM
Yea same here. He's definitely a good player but it's got a little out of hand.


Most definitely agree with ya on this one. It'll be interesting to see how he does with teams actually preparing for him and having to do it all year. He could certainly maintain or improve on whay he did last year but I wanna see it for a full year.


Jokic is actually very overrated now. Get on twitter and a lot of the stat geeks have him top 10 or top 15. Saw someone comparing his first 2 seasons to LeBron and Jordan's.

Depends how they do it. Stat geeks tend to blow his analytics out of proportion, and to say he is Lebron or Jordan type generational talent is too much, but stat gurus have every right to boast about the kid and his numbers.

He is a top 5 center now.

Jokic has to prove it all year again. This is funny, cause if that’s the case we can say the same about Towns.

Jokic is already a almost great player and if he replicates last season, not even get better he is an all star.

warfelg
10-11-2017, 06:53 AM
Robert Covington is so underrated no one wanted to talk about him when I brought him up.

prodigy
10-11-2017, 09:46 AM
In what way is an All-NBA 2nd Team player underrated when he isn't even top five at his position?

Westbrook
CP3
Harden
Curry
Wall
Lillard
Kyrie
Conley

He's not underrated. He had a great season but there are about 20 players who I think are probably better than IT.

I named 8 above.

LeBron
Kawhi
KD
PG
Butler
Draymond
Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
KAT
Marc Gasol
Klay

Then there are others who are close such as Gordon Hayward, Gobert, Blake..

You guys are giving IT too much credit. He was lights out offensively but he couldn't defend. Optimistic about him when he can help Cavs score without LeBron but I'd take John Wall over him easily..

dang you wrote all this because i cracked a joke at a guy who said there are many players better then IT? lmao!

I don't believe IT is underrated by the NBA but fans def do. for example Hawkeye underrates him big time.

As for ur list of players what are you looking for? if ur looking for scoring IT is way better then some of the people you posted. IT's also a better passer then a good amount of the players you posted. I do believe you are underrating IT as well.

Harden is a SG now, Irving who i love but he's the same player at IT just taller. IT def better then Conley, i love my OSU boy but common lol.

tp13baby
10-11-2017, 10:36 AM
Robert Covington is so underrated no one wanted to talk about him when I brought him up.

I agree he is underrated. To be fair that happened with a ton of players mentioned in here

ewing
10-11-2017, 11:22 AM
Robert Covington is so underrated no one wanted to talk about him when I brought him up.


I don't like to give Sixers credit but I like him

hugepatsfan
10-11-2017, 12:14 PM
Robert Covington is so underrated no one wanted to talk about him when I brought him up.

I mean, there's not much to talk about. Great defender, alright shooter. He's like a lesser PJ Tucker.

LanceUpperCut
10-11-2017, 12:24 PM
Derozan is underrated big time. People always focus on what he can't do but completely look past what he can do at an elite level. To me the jack of all trades guys who don't do anyone thing really good are always looked at as underrated when there actually just not as good.

5ass
10-11-2017, 03:46 PM
No. But he's rated lower than his level of skill. The question is who is most underrated/

Id take him over drummond TBH

stejay
10-11-2017, 03:46 PM
Gordon Hayward

Bostonjorge
10-11-2017, 04:40 PM
Kyle Kuzma. #7 leading scorer in the league right now.

tp13baby
10-12-2017, 07:17 AM
Kyle Kuzma. #7 leading scorer in the league right now.

Hasn’t played 1 regular season game. Stop.

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 10:41 AM
dang you wrote all this because i cracked a joke at a guy who said there are many players better then IT? lmao!

I don't believe IT is underrated by the NBA but fans def do. for example Hawkeye underrates him big time.

As for ur list of players what are you looking for? if ur looking for scoring IT is way better then some of the people you posted. IT's also a better passer then a good amount of the players you posted. I do believe you are underrating IT as well.

Harden is a SG now, Irving who i love but he's the same player at IT just taller. IT def better then Conley, i love my OSU boy but common lol.

You really suck at this. I will just ignore all your posts from now on. It took me like 2 minutes to type that up considering it doesn't take a genius to see that there are more than a handful amount of players better than IT. You just prop up any Cleveland player regardless of status. It's sickening. Can you be more like your fellow Cavs fans?

aman_13
10-12-2017, 12:24 PM
null

Haha.. the irony..

Seizabmc
10-12-2017, 02:44 PM
Damian Dotson rookie for the Knicks

Aust
10-13-2017, 05:56 AM
Gary Harris.

prodigy
10-13-2017, 02:30 PM
You really suck at this. I will just ignore all your posts from now on. It took me like 2 minutes to type that up considering it doesn't take a genius to see that there are more than a handful amount of players better than IT. You just prop up any Cleveland player regardless of status. It's sickening. Can you be more like your fellow Cavs fans?

You right my bad. IT sucks, horrible player. Hundreds better. Man im such an idiot for saying IT is a good player. dang, i suck at this. forget the parts where i still say Irving is better or any of that.

FlashBolt
10-13-2017, 05:09 PM
You right my bad. IT sucks, horrible player. Hundreds better. Man im such an idiot for saying IT is a good player. dang, i suck at this. forget the parts where i still say Irving is better or any of that.

It's just that you try to make an argument but it always comes off as misinformed biased nonsense. Vee-Rex is a legit Cavs fan with impartial views of his team. You just like every and anything that is a Cavs.

prodigy
10-14-2017, 09:45 AM
It's just that you try to make an argument but it always comes off as misinformed biased nonsense. Vee-Rex is a legit Cavs fan with impartial views of his team. You just like every and anything that is a Cavs.

You sound like a internet tough guy who cant read. Seriously. I say Green is a solid bench player who will bring energy and length in the postseason. you act as if i just said Green > Lebron

Please show me anything that i have written in this topic thats so crazy. please i will wait...

Blitzbolt
10-16-2017, 05:55 PM
And the Mike Conley award goes to......

Drums.....

DTownSportsFan
10-17-2017, 02:53 PM
At the risk of sounding like a homer, Tobias Harris.

Others I like:

-James Johnson
-Gary Harris (maybe not as underrated anymore with his new contract)
-Trevor Ariza

hugepatsfan
10-17-2017, 03:23 PM
It's hard to just say "underrated" because the next question is "by who?" Who the casual fan underrates is different than a "hardcore" fan that buries their nose in the advanced stat sheet and thinks someone is a God because they shoot efficiently after passing up anything even remotely resembling a contested shot.

R. Johnson#3
10-18-2017, 02:20 PM
Derozan is underrated big time. People always focus on what he can't do but completely look past what he can do at an elite level. To me the jack of all trades guys who don't do anyone thing really good are always looked at as underrated when there actually just not as good.

Yup. He's bad on D but people make him out to be Jose Calderon bad. When it comes to offence people harp on the fact that he can't shoot the 3. That's literally the only thing he can't do on offence.

YAALREADYKNO
10-19-2017, 08:30 AM
Damian Lillard

warfelg
10-19-2017, 08:37 AM
Robert Covington is so underrated no one wanted to talk about him when I brought him up.

29 minutes:
29 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 2 blocks

ewing
10-19-2017, 10:47 AM
Robert Covington is so underrated no one wanted to talk about him when I brought him up.

He has a great release


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valade16
10-19-2017, 01:54 PM
Damian Lillard

Seconded.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 02:25 PM
You sound like a internet tough guy who cant read. Seriously. I say Green is a solid bench player who will bring energy and length in the postseason. you act as if i just said Green > Lebron

Please show me anything that i have written in this topic thats so crazy. please i will wait...

"COME PLAYOFF TIME thats where these guys become huge!"

You said this in this thread: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?928839-Your-Assessment-of-the-Newly-Looked-2017-18-Cleveland-Cavaliers/page11

You also said this:
"I've always liked Jeff Green. When healthy he's a good player. Very athletic and solid scoring threat. He's not nearing as bad on defense as you make him out to be. Yes he's not gonna win any awards but come playoffs his defense and athletic ability will be huge."

The more likely result is, Jeff won't have a huge impact.. as you yourself said he would have. I mean just vs Boston the other day, I saw some issues with Jeff. He passed over wide open threes, chose to pump fake WIDE open threes to attack the basket - which teams are fully aware of and won't guard him at the three anymore, and he grabbed ZERO rebounds. Also sucked defensively. Had three fouls in ten minutes - which means he is fouling because he can't stay in front of his man. Look, I like Green on another team but not the Cavs. Richard Jefferson is a 10x better fit than Green and he was barely "huge" for the Cavs in the playoffs. What makes you think Green will be huge in the playoffs? He won't be. And FYI, you're the one who said Green would be huge so I am curious as to why you are now saying you never said it.

ewing
10-19-2017, 03:07 PM
Seconded.

That’s what I said 2 years ago


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R. Johnson#3
10-20-2017, 08:05 AM
29 minutes:
29 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 2 blocks

Maybe this will be the year he shoots 40% from the field?

warfelg
10-20-2017, 08:27 AM
Maybe this will be the year he shoots 40% from the field?

From the field or from 3?

He's a career 45.6% shooter from 2; 35.6% from 3pt. He's basically an average shooter, but what hurts him a bit is the fact that he's not consistent. If his shooting could be a little more reliable, along with his defense, he would be very underrated by the GP.

Just for comparison sake:
Jae Crowder is someone that ESPN/SI/BR all said is better than RoCo: 51.6% shooter from 2; 34.6% shooter from three and a lesser defender.

So RoCo is a better defender than Jae, can defend 4 positions at a high level, and similar offensively, with RoCo being a slightly better rebounder (Being 3" taller helps there).

R. Johnson#3
10-20-2017, 09:59 AM
From the field or from 3?

He's a career 45.6% shooter from 2; 35.6% from 3pt. He's basically an average shooter, but what hurts him a bit is the fact that he's not consistent. If his shooting could be a little more reliable, along with his defense, he would be very underrated by the GP.

Just for comparison sake:
Jae Crowder is someone that ESPN/SI/BR all said is better than RoCo: 51.6% shooter from 2; 34.6% shooter from three and a lesser defender.

So RoCo is a better defender than Jae, can defend 4 positions at a high level, and similar offensively, with RoCo being a slightly better rebounder (Being 3" taller helps there).

From the field, just like I said in my post. He also has 0 court vision and turns the ball over a fair bit for a guy who doesn't have the ball in his hands that much. I admit, I haven't watched Covington play a bunch but from what I've seen he takes bad shots and makes bad decisions with the ball. He's not underrated.

warfelg
10-20-2017, 10:31 AM
He turns is over a bit more than I would like but he’s certainly underrated.

ewing
10-20-2017, 10:35 AM
He’s underrated


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hugepatsfan
10-20-2017, 10:57 AM
I feel like RoCo is fairly rated :shrug:

Good role player. 3 and D guy. Positional versatility to defend different body types. Not someone you want doing much more on offense. I feel like that's how people rate him and exactly how they should.

R. Johnson#3
10-20-2017, 11:32 AM
He turns is over a bit more than I would like but he’s certainly underrated.

Agree to disagree then.

smith&wesson
10-20-2017, 02:28 PM
Mike Conley
Kemba Walker

ewing
10-30-2017, 12:55 AM
Mike Conley
Kemba Walker

good pck

Jamiecballer
10-30-2017, 08:23 AM
ricky rubio, just read the other threads folks. he's like forgotten.

Hawkeye15
10-30-2017, 09:09 AM
ricky rubio, just read the other threads folks. he's like forgotten.

yep. I wouldn't even classify Rubio as a great player by any means, but my god, you would think he barely belongs on an NBA roster reading this board. He is still a top half of the league PG, and far from the reason the Wolves were never good.

ewing
10-30-2017, 09:48 AM
ricky rubio, just read the other threads folks. he's like forgotten.

He’s not very memorable


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papipapsmanny
10-30-2017, 06:39 PM
Even with the Contract, Otto Porter. The league thought his contract was outrageous, but the guy is all around just good

Jamiecballer
10-30-2017, 10:38 PM
He’s not very memorable


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBut he looks like a keebler elf how can people forget

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PickleRick
11-02-2017, 04:31 PM
V-Rex just made a fairly compelling case that IT is better than Kyrie defensively.

That doesn’t mean much, lol

mightybosstone
11-02-2017, 06:01 PM
For these conversations, I always like to look at the small market teams that have been good over the last few seasons. So the two guys who always stick out to me are Marc Gasol and Mike Conley of the Grizzlies. Gasol has been a top 3-4 center essentially his entire career, while Conley has been a top 10 PG for much of it. If either of those guys were the No. 2 piece in a larger market like New York, Boston or LA, they would be all over ESPN every day.