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valade16
10-06-2017, 02:11 PM
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/how-the-nbas-newly-imposed-harden-rule-will-impact-james-harden-this-season/

The NBA amended the rules so that if you are fouled beyond the 3point line and you have not yet gathered the ball and begun your shooting motion it is a regular foul as opposed to a shooting foul.

So basically, all those players that would see the foul and then jack up a 3 pointer to get to the free throw line can no longer do so.

What affect do you think this will have, if any?

Scoots
10-06-2017, 02:23 PM
Have they clearly defined the gather? And why not apply the same rule inside the 3 point line? Making it only outside the line is just another time the ref has to look at a players feet and hands at the same time. The hand/wrist contact fouls are called very inconsistently already, seems this may make it worse.

IndyRealist
10-06-2017, 02:30 PM
Have they clearly defined the gather? And why not apply the same rule inside the 3 point line? Making it only outside the line is just another time the ref has to look at a players feet and hands at the same time. The hand/wrist contact fouls are called very inconsistently already, seems this may make it worse.

I'm guessing by "gather" they mean that the ball has to be in both hands and you have to have ceased your dribble. This feels like an extension of the "rip through" rule, aka the Durant rule, where the shooter would bring his shooting motion through the defender's outstretched arms on purpose to draw contact and get to the line. That was turned into a common foul as well.

warfelg
10-06-2017, 02:53 PM
Good. I feel like the Rockets win 5-7 games a year on that alone.

dhopisthename
10-06-2017, 03:03 PM
I need to see a rule in action before I can say its going to do anything. I hope it fixes the issue though. watching some of the things they called a shot were disgusting.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-06-2017, 08:18 PM
I thought this was going to be that if you score on Harden, it only counts as half a point.

mightybosstone
10-06-2017, 09:17 PM
Good. I feel like the Rockets win 5-7 games a year on that alone.

That's ****ing idiotic.

Scoots
10-06-2017, 10:32 PM
I'm guessing by "gather" they mean that the ball has to be in both hands and you have to have ceased your dribble. This feels like an extension of the "rip through" rule, aka the Durant rule, where the shooter would bring his shooting motion through the defender's outstretched arms on purpose to draw contact and get to the line. That was turned into a common foul as well.

And not officiated very well either.

nastynice
10-08-2017, 08:56 PM
That's ****ing idiotic.

I see no issue with them doing that. A win is a win, especially playoffs

cmellofan15
10-09-2017, 10:58 PM
I see no issue with them doing that. A win is a win, especially playoffs

No he's saying it's idiotic to attribute a tenth of their wins to something so rare and unusual. And he's absolutely right.

MygirlhatesCod
10-09-2017, 11:31 PM
I thought this was going to be that if you score on Harden, it only counts as half a point.

hilarious!!!!!!

nastynice
10-09-2017, 11:40 PM
No he's saying it's idiotic to attribute a tenth of their wins to something so rare and unusual. And he's absolutely right.

haha, I know, I was just tryina annoy him

warfelg
10-10-2017, 08:37 AM
No he's saying it's idiotic to attribute a tenth of their wins to something so rare and unusual. And he's absolutely right.

I didn't say that they do, just it feels that way. Watched a few Rockets games last year because the are a fun league pass game, and Harden got to the line for 20 or so shots quite a few times. Even at 80% shooting that's 16 free points.

Vee-Rex
10-10-2017, 10:08 AM
Rockets might miss the playoffs now.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 10:27 AM
That's ****ing idiotic.

with Harden/Paul, the 2 biggest floppers on non-basketball plays in the history of basketball, those guys do pack in some major extra positive possessions by flopping.

Alas, this will be like the flopping rule they had. Won't matter, they have to prove it. Harden, is unwatchable to me, but he is a true master of knowing when to start his flop. He constantly catches guys with their hands in the cookie jar.

Trust me, I hope they penalize him for his bs antics, and his pure non-basketball flopping 40 feet from the rim coming around a pick. But they won't...he is a star.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 11:08 AM
with Harden/Paul, the 2 biggest floppers on non-basketball plays in the history of basketball, those guys do pack in some major extra positive possessions by flopping.

Alas, this will be like the flopping rule they had. Won't matter, they have to prove it. Harden, is unwatchable to me, but he is a true master of knowing when to start his flop. He constantly catches guys with their hands in the cookie jar.

Trust me, I hope they penalize him for his bs antics, and his pure non-basketball flopping 40 feet from the rim coming around a pick. But they won't...he is a star.

This is my issue ... not with the rule, but the question is how are they going to officiate it? They say it's going to be a common foul and not a shooting foul ... when the contact is created by the offensive player with the sole purpose being the contact I'm not sure it should be a foul at all. Theoretically the defensive player has a right to the space they are in and the offensive player can't expect to get the help of an official if they create the contact (regardless of "verticallity" (what a stupid word)).

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 11:16 AM
This is my issue ... not with the rule, but the question is how are they going to officiate it? They say it's going to be a common foul and not a shooting foul ... when the contact is created by the offensive player with the sole purpose being the contact I'm not sure it should be a foul at all. Theoretically the defensive player has a right to the space they are in and the offensive player can't expect to get the help of an official if they create the contact (regardless of "verticallity" (what a stupid word)).

Harden isn't the only guilty party in the game, but he creates more contact with defenders than anyone by a mile. I can't watch him often, or I will have a stroke out of anger, but when I do, he can't go 5 plays without flailing into a defender and getting a call. I won't pretend to guess a percentage, but the dude draws a lot of fouls that not only shouldn't be fouls, but should get him nut punched by the other team.

Seriously, how does he get a call, 40 feet away, coming around a pick, slowing down, waiting for a defender, and the nanosecond there is contact, he acts like Bruce Lee just kicked him, and the foul is called? The defender is always just standing there like, "wtf". I absolutely hate the fact he gets calls like that, it isn't basketball. Or when he drives to the rim, runs out of room, then dives into the defender while throwing his arms up, and the foul is called on a backing up defender who is helpless?

God he pisses me off

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 11:33 AM
3 times in last years nationally televised Sixers/Rockets game he got a call from contact before crossing mid-court, heaved it up, and got the call for a shooting foul.

that is straight up unacceptable. It just can't happen.

warfelg
10-10-2017, 11:34 AM
Harden isn't the only guilty party in the game, but he creates more contact with defenders than anyone by a mile. I can't watch him often, or I will have a stroke out of anger, but when I do, he can't go 5 plays without flailing into a defender and getting a call. I won't pretend to guess a percentage, but the dude draws a lot of fouls that not only shouldn't be fouls, but should get him nut punched by the other team.

Seriously, how does he get a call, 40 feet away, coming around a pick, slowing down, waiting for a defender, and the nanosecond there is contact, he acts like Bruce Lee just kicked him, and the foul is called? The defender is always just standing there like, "wtf". I absolutely hate the fact he gets calls like that, it isn't basketball. Or when he drives to the rim, runs out of room, then dives into the defender while throwing his arms up, and the foul is called on a backing up defender who is helpless?

God he pisses me off

3 times in last years nationally televised Sixers/Rockets game he got a call from contact before crossing mid-court, heaved it up, and got the call for a shooting foul.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 11:41 AM
Harden isn't the only guilty party in the game, but he creates more contact with defenders than anyone by a mile. I can't watch him often, or I will have a stroke out of anger, but when I do, he can't go 5 plays without flailing into a defender and getting a call. I won't pretend to guess a percentage, but the dude draws a lot of fouls that not only shouldn't be fouls, but should get him nut punched by the other team.

Seriously, how does he get a call, 40 feet away, coming around a pick, slowing down, waiting for a defender, and the nanosecond there is contact, he acts like Bruce Lee just kicked him, and the foul is called? The defender is always just standing there like, "wtf". I absolutely hate the fact he gets calls like that, it isn't basketball. Or when he drives to the rim, runs out of room, then dives into the defender while throwing his arms up, and the foul is called on a backing up defender who is helpless?

God he pisses me off

Who drives the lane with the ball in both hands and both arms at full extension and straight out in front? One player.

The thing that bugs me is that more coaches are teaching their players specifically to take advantage of the refs and copy Harden. And just to increase Harden's annoyingness, when he was asked about it he seemed annoyed that others are copying his "style".

More than any other thing that's what I'd like the league to fix in the officiating, the muddiness of the contact rules. I see Curry getting his shooting wrist hit regularly and he gets knocked to the ground on people jumping at him regularly and usually doesn't get a call. It's not a "you're a homer" thing that I mention Curry, it's just that he's a star on Harden's level but he doesn't get the calls for worse contact. The rules should be equal for all players. Allow contact created by the offensive players (even if the defender is moving) and the game gets better.

Htownballa1622
10-10-2017, 03:31 PM
I totally get what yall are saying when he comes off a screen and stops in front of defender or when he comes up through someone's arms to draw contact but I disagree on two other ways.

When he's putting moves on, and he raises up while the defender has their arm out checking him(kawhi), it's absolutely a foul. Defender shouldn't have their arms out horizontally.

I see Kawhi (example)get away with hand checking him all over and no one bats an eye.

Also, Harden drives in many times, gets RAKED across the arm, and doesn't get the call. He definitely gets some bs calls but they also miss some OBVIOUS ones so I think it evens out in the end.

I've posted this before but here ya go.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=814YDuzfK9U

Hawkeye15
10-10-2017, 03:48 PM
I totally get what yall are saying when he comes off a screen and stops in front of defender or when he comes up through someone's arms to draw contact but I disagree on two other ways.

When he's putting moves on, and he raises up while the defender has their arm out checking him(kawhi), it's absolutely a foul. Defender shouldn't have their arms out horizontally.

I see Kawhi (example)get away with hand checking him all over and no one bats an eye.

Also, Harden drives in many times, gets RAKED across the arm, and doesn't get the call. He definitely gets some bs calls but they also miss some OBVIOUS ones so I think it evens out in the end.

I've posted this before but here ya go.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=814YDuzfK9U

I understand fans of a team defend their players. Houston fans would hate him just as much as everyone else if he played for another team.

Please understand, nobody is saying Harden isn't a superstar player. He is just visually very hard to watch as a non-Rocket fan. What he does, night in and night out, has a lot of non-basketball theatrics that are tough to stomach.

The worst part? You guys now have arguably the 2nd most annoying flopper in the game too haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-IV58gIV0

boo hoo for poor James that he didn't get one call to go his way btw...

the dude deserves every non-call that was missed, and ten-fold. He is so far on the advantage side of the foul call, you can't possibly whine if a foul is missed that would have benefited him..

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 03:50 PM
3 times in last years nationally televised Sixers/Rockets game he got a call from contact before crossing mid-court, heaved it up, and got the call for a shooting foul.

You sure it wasn't during a Hack a Capella play? And why the heck is a defender close enough to get that contact before half court? I want a link to those plays.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 03:55 PM
Who drives the lane with the ball in both hands and both arms at full extension and straight out in front? One player.

The thing that bugs me is that more coaches are teaching their players specifically to take advantage of the refs and copy Harden. And just to increase Harden's annoyingness, when he was asked about it he seemed annoyed that others are copying his "style".

More than any other thing that's what I'd like the league to fix in the officiating, the muddiness of the contact rules. I see Curry getting his shooting wrist hit regularly and he gets knocked to the ground on people jumping at him regularly and usually doesn't get a call. It's not a "you're a homer" thing that I mention Curry, it's just that he's a star on Harden's level but he doesn't get the calls for worse contact. The rules should be equal for all players. Allow contact created by the offensive players (even if the defender is moving) and the game gets better.

People who cheer for moving screens shouldn't ***** about a guy trying to draw arm hacking fouls. One is illegal, one is exploiting how dumb your opponent is for poking at the ball and hitting his arm.

stephcurry182
10-10-2017, 04:37 PM
It will be interested to see how this is officiated, definitely would like to see it as a rule inside the three line as well

Htownballa1622
10-10-2017, 05:15 PM
I understand fans of a team defend their players. Houston fans would hate him just as much as everyone else if he played for another team.

Please understand, nobody is saying Harden isn't a superstar player. He is just visually very hard to watch as a non-Rocket fan. What he does, night in and night out, has a lot of non-basketball theatrics that are tough to stomach.

The worst part? You guys now have arguably the 2nd most annoying flopper in the game too haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-IV58gIV0

boo hoo for poor James that he didn't get one call to go his way btw...

the dude deserves every non-call that was missed, and ten-fold. He is so far on the advantage side of the foul call, you can't possibly whine if a foul is missed that would have benefited him..

I totally hear what you're saying but I think you're missing the broader point here.

I have told you that he DOES get calls his way but he also doesn't always get benefit of the doubt. I understand how you feel too because I can not have a reasonable conversation about Garnett(I think he's a POS).

Cp3 is terrible too. I get that. I watched him get slightly touched going for a loose ball against Thunder few days ago and fall immediately to the ground to get the call. I've called him out on it in the past and will continue to do so.

The difference is that last play James didn't get the call was kind of a big play. Game was on the line and I'm sure we want the correct call whether it hurts or benefits us. That no call hurt us bigtime (Gasol ended up hitting game winner).

You showing me a flop compilation is like me showing you that Harden defense compilation and basing the following 2 years on it. I can post a video right now of Harden playing good defense and you wouldn't click on it lol.

Plus you even said that you try not to watch so you're already not aware of the discrepancy between correct calls and wrong ones/no calls.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 05:27 PM
I totally get what yall are saying when he comes off a screen and stops in front of defender or when he comes up through someone's arms to draw contact but I disagree on two other ways.

When he's putting moves on, and he raises up while the defender has their arm out checking him(kawhi), it's absolutely a foul. Defender shouldn't have their arms out horizontally.

I see Kawhi (example)get away with hand checking him all over and no one bats an eye.

Also, Harden drives in many times, gets RAKED across the arm, and doesn't get the call. He definitely gets some bs calls but they also miss some OBVIOUS ones so I think it evens out in the end.

I've posted this before but here ya go.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=814YDuzfK9U

I don't think anybody is saying Harden is never fouled or that he gets literally all the calls. But if a defender's arm is out but not touching him and not moving and Harden creates the contact ... that should not be a foul.

Htownballa1622
10-10-2017, 05:36 PM
I don't think anybody is saying Harden is never fouled or that he gets literally all the calls. But if a defender's arm is out but not touching him and not moving and Harden creates the contact ... that should not be a foul.

If he's going up to shoot and a defender's arms are extended horizontally, then I disagree with you.

valade16
10-10-2017, 06:51 PM
If he's going up to shoot and a defender's arms are extended horizontally, then I disagree with you.

He's not going up to shoot though, he's pretending to shoot so he can get the foul call. Him shooting is the second thing on his mind, the first thing on his mind is hooking the defenders arm to get the foul call.

It's petty and cheap as all get out.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 07:32 PM
People who cheer for moving screens shouldn't ***** about a guy trying to draw arm hacking fouls. One is illegal, one is exploiting how dumb your opponent is for poking at the ball and hitting his arm.

I didn't talk about hacking fouls. I said if the offensive player creates the contact ... that's not a hack.

And I don't recall specifically cheering for moving screens. In fact I started a thread to discuss improving the officiating of it because the rule and the officiating are broken.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 07:34 PM
I totally hear what you're saying but I think you're missing the broader point here.

I have told you that he DOES get calls his way but he also doesn't always get benefit of the doubt. I understand how you feel too because I can not have a reasonable conversation about Garnett(I think he's a POS).

Cp3 is terrible too. I get that. I watched him get slightly touched going for a loose ball against Thunder few days ago and fall immediately to the ground to get the call. I've called him out on it in the past and will continue to do so.

The difference is that last play James didn't get the call was kind of a big play. Game was on the line and I'm sure we want the correct call whether it hurts or benefits us. That no call hurt us bigtime (Gasol ended up hitting game winner).

You showing me a flop compilation is like me showing you that Harden defense compilation and basing the following 2 years on it. I can post a video right now of Harden playing good defense and you wouldn't click on it lol.

Plus you even said that you try not to watch so you're already not aware of the discrepancy between correct calls and wrong ones/no calls.

I think the thing is ... it's not about the discrepancy of calls to non-calls. It's about the refs being worked ever. No player (and Harden is in no way alone) should be able to create contact on offense and get a foul called on the defender.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 07:41 PM
If he's going up to shoot and a defender's arms are extended horizontally, then I disagree with you.

So if a defender has his arms horrizontally like this:

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/DefensiveStance3.jpg.pagespeed.ce.tEdQwoK9cU.jpg

And an offensive player creates contact with his arm that should be a foul on the defender?

To me, the ONLY time a defender should get a foul on contact while not moving is in the restricted area on a player who is driving and already in his gather when the defender is still moving. And in that case, if the defender is making a reasonable effort to get out of the way that should not be a call either.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 07:54 PM
Some are absolutely bs but people started doing that years ago. The moves where someone pump fakes, draws his defender to jump toward him and then the shooter jumps into the jumping defender in an unusual shot has been around longer than Harden's been in the league. I've never liked it but I hear more people complaining about it now than ever before.

The move where a defender has his hand out and it's in the area where the shooter comes up with the ball has also been around for years and that should be called a legit foul.

Harden's driving where people slap at the ball and hit his arm most of the time should be called as legit fouls.




I didn't talk about hacking fouls. I said if the offensive player creates the contact ... that's not a hack.

And I don't recall specifically cheering for moving screens. In fact I started a thread to discuss improving the officiating of it because the rule and the officiating are broken.

Re-read the first two paragraphs I was quoting. And guys get hit on the wrist a lot, even Harden and it doesn't get called. Kerr has been telling his people to sell calls because it works. It sucks, but if that's what you gotta do........

Haven't seen other teams telling their guys to offensive line block opponents like the Warriors have done. I wonder if they would have as many wins (regular season and playoffs) if those ******** screens were called. I see a center move a half second too quick or tilt his butt just a few degrees too far and it's an offensive foul. I've seen Green and Bogut face up a guy, run in front of him, and hold their arms out like it's a run play in the NFL. And it was just accepted as something the Warriors could do 80% of the time.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 07:57 PM
So if a defender has his arms horrizontally like this:

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/DefensiveStance3.jpg.pagespeed.ce.tEdQwoK9cU.jpg

And an offensive player creates contact with his arm that should be a foul on the defender?

To me, the ONLY time a defender should get a foul on contact while not moving is in the restricted area on a player who is driving and already in his gather when the defender is still moving. And in that case, if the defender is making a reasonable effort to get out of the way that should not be a call either.

No, but most of the calls Harden gets are when a player has his arm directly in front of Harden and Harden goes up for a shot. He knows he'll make contact with the arm but the defender still shouldn't put it in the way of his shooting motion. If Harden lunged forward in an odd form, then sure, but most of the time he brings it up through the defender's outstretched arm that is in the way of his shooting motion.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 08:34 PM
No, but most of the calls Harden gets are when a player has his arm directly in front of Harden and Harden goes up for a shot. He knows he'll make contact with the arm but the defender still shouldn't put it in the way of his shooting motion. If Harden lunged forward in an odd form, then sure, but most of the time he brings it up through the defender's outstretched arm that is in the way of his shooting motion.

Don't get me wrong, players do plenty of stuff to gain an advantage in any game. But this by Harden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiiTvmn4PVQ

Needs to be fined. It's downright lame.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 09:25 PM
Some are absolutely bs but people started doing that years ago. The moves where someone pump fakes, draws his defender to jump toward him and then the shooter jumps into the jumping defender in an unusual shot has been around longer than Harden's been in the league. I've never liked it but I hear more people complaining about it now than ever before.

The move where a defender has his hand out and it's in the area where the shooter comes up with the ball has also been around for years and that should be called a legit foul.

Harden's driving where people slap at the ball and hit his arm most of the time should be called as legit fouls.





Re-read the first two paragraphs I was quoting. And guys get hit on the wrist a lot, even Harden and it doesn't get called. Kerr has been telling his people to sell calls because it works. It sucks, but if that's what you gotta do........

Haven't seen other teams telling their guys to offensive line block opponents like the Warriors have done. I wonder if they would have as many wins (regular season and playoffs) if those ******** screens were called. I see a center move a half second too quick or tilt his butt just a few degrees too far and it's an offensive foul. I've seen Green and Bogut face up a guy, run in front of him, and hold their arms out like it's a run play in the NFL. And it was just accepted as something the Warriors could do 80% of the time.

I wrote those two paragraphs and I wasn't talking about hacking fouls. I also wasn't supportive of the Warriors screening. In both cases I think the rules and the refs need to solve the problem. You've tried to make this about something else 4 times now. The problem is the rules and their enforcement should not allow players to take advantage of the refs.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 09:27 PM
No, but most of the calls Harden gets are when a player has his arm directly in front of Harden and Harden goes up for a shot. He knows he'll make contact with the arm but the defender still shouldn't put it in the way of his shooting motion. If Harden lunged forward in an odd form, then sure, but most of the time he brings it up through the defender's outstretched arm that is in the way of his shooting motion.

Yes, and I didn't say Harden was doing anything against the rules. I think the rule should change. If the contact is created by the offensive player it should never be a foul on the defender. The RULE should change. No fault on Harden.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 09:42 PM
I wrote those two paragraphs and I wasn't talking about hacking fouls. I also wasn't supportive of the Warriors screening. In both cases I think the rules and the refs need to solve the problem. You've tried to make this about something else 4 times now. The problem is the rules and their enforcement should not allow players to take advantage of the refs.

This is the first post of yours that I quoted:


Who drives the lane with the ball in both hands and both arms at full extension and straight out in front? One player.

The thing that bugs me is that more coaches are teaching their players specifically to take advantage of the refs and copy Harden. And just to increase Harden's annoyingness, when he was asked about it he seemed annoyed that others are copying his "style".

More than any other thing that's what I'd like the league to fix in the officiating, the muddiness of the contact rules. I see Curry getting his shooting wrist hit regularly and he gets knocked to the ground on people jumping at him regularly and usually doesn't get a call. It's not a "you're a homer" thing that I mention Curry, it's just that he's a star on Harden's level but he doesn't get the calls for worse contact. The rules should be equal for all players. Allow contact created by the offensive players (even if the defender is moving) and the game gets better.

How were you not talking about hacking fouls? Harden gets hacked when he goes to the hoop. That's why he does it. He gets fouled and goes to the line.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 09:55 PM
Don't get me wrong, players do plenty of stuff to gain an advantage in any game. But this by Harden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiiTvmn4PVQ

Needs to be fined. It's downright lame.

Oh look, another selective video. Every player can have their own video where selective ******** plays are presented. He does some garbage, never denied it. But he's not the first and won't be the last.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 09:57 PM
Yes, and I didn't say Harden was doing anything against the rules. I think the rule should change. If the contact is created by the offensive player it should never be a foul on the defender. The RULE should change. No fault on Harden.

I think they should get the calls that are already on the books right before they should start adding new calls to look out for.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 10:01 PM
This is the first post of yours that I quoted:



How were you not talking about hacking fouls? Harden gets hacked when he goes to the hoop. That's why he does it. He gets fouled and goes to the line.

I didn't say anything about defenders or them hacking him. Harden plays in an unnatural way to increase contact. I didn't say he didn't get fouled.

Scoots
10-10-2017, 10:05 PM
I think they should get the calls that are already on the books right before they should start adding new calls to look out for.

I think they need to improve the rules so they are more able to be called consistently, AND they should improve the officiating. Some of the rules on offensive contact are horribly written.

There should be at LEAST 4 refs because there is just too much stuff to watch and there are too many angles for 3 people to see it all.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 10:24 PM
Oh look, another selective video. Every player can have their own video where selective ******** plays are presented. He does some garbage, never denied it. But he's not the first and won't be the last.

I mean, you say it is selective but Harden's name is always the one popping out.. if it's on YouTube search recommendations before I even type the entire video name up, then it's obviously something he does commonly. But anyhow, that doesn't change that he does do this.. which I think needs to be looked more at. Not fair that a player just puts his arm out there and Harden comes in there like a magnet causing a "foul."

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 10:43 PM
I mean, you say it is selective but Harden's name is always the one popping out.. if it's on YouTube search recommendations before I even type the entire video name up, then it's obviously something he does commonly. But anyhow, that doesn't change that he does do this.. which I think needs to be looked more at. Not fair that a player just puts his arm out there and Harden comes in there like a magnet causing a "foul."

But putting your arm in there and it hits the offensive is a foul. If a defensive player puts his arms over another player and the offensive player goes to shoot and his hands hit the defensive player's arms, then it's a defensive foul. If it's all ball then it's all ball but If a guy goes through his shooting motion and you're already invading his space? Don't invade his space.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 11:07 PM
But putting your arm in there and it hits the offensive is a foul. If a defensive player puts his arms over another player and the offensive player goes to shoot and his hands hit the defensive player's arms, then it's a defensive foul. If it's all ball then it's all ball but If a guy goes through his shooting motion and you're already invading his space? Don't invade his space.

They aren't. Harden is hooking their arm and then creating that contact because the other player can't move their arm to defend the shot...

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 11:10 PM
I didn't say anything about defenders or them hacking him. Harden plays in an unnatural way to increase contact. I didn't say he didn't get fouled.

But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 11:11 PM
I think they need to improve the rules so they are more able to be called consistently, AND they should improve the officiating. Some of the rules on offensive contact are horribly written.

There should be at LEAST 4 refs because there is just too much stuff to watch and there are too many angles for 3 people to see it all.

I totally agree. Singling out Harden is pretty ******, though, especially when it was a problem before he even came into the league.

FlashBolt
10-10-2017, 11:36 PM
But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.

So you're telling me Harden is allowed to grab your arm and stick it into his body.. that's not on the defender but Harden being a sneaky fox. Like I said, if the refs don't call it, do it. But I think it's time some of these things get reviewed. Basically you're telling me the only defense a player can commit to is stand in front of their man. If Harden doesn't grab their arm, there is no foul.

Saddletramp
10-10-2017, 11:59 PM
They aren't. Harden is hooking their arm and then creating that contact because the other player can't move their arm to defend the shot...

Guys get hooked together. That's not new to Harden. Look, Harden does some sneaky stuff and I don't think some of it should be legal but he's not the only one and that's not all he's got. People make it sound like he's the only offender and it's all illegal. Hate the rule, not the player who takes advantage of it.

Htownballa1622
10-11-2017, 12:05 AM
He's not going up to shoot though, he's pretending to shoot so he can get the foul call. Him shooting is the second thing on his mind, the first thing on his mind is hooking the defenders arm to get the foul call.

It's petty and cheap as all get out.
We are talking about 2 diff things. I'm not talking about the blatant hooks and b.s. he sometimes does. I'm talking about the times a defender is legitimately playing craps defense with his hands checking rather than trying to move feet.


So if a defender has his arms horrizontally like this:

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/DefensiveStance3.jpg.pagespeed.ce.tEdQwoK9cU.jpg

And an offensive player creates contact with his arm that should be a foul on the defender?

To me, the ONLY time a defender should get a foul on contact while not moving is in the restricted area on a player who is driving and already in his gather when the defender is still moving. And in that case, if the defender is making a reasonable effort to get out of the way that should not be a call either.
No, that shouldn't be a foul. It's if arms are horizontal but forward rather than vertical.


But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.

Exactly. Harden can drive in and extend his arms all he wants. Don't swipe and get all arm then complain.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 12:06 AM
So you're telling me Harden is allowed to grab your arm and stick it into his body.. that's not on the defender but Harden being a sneaky fox. Like I said, if the refs don't call it, do it. But I think it's time some of these things get reviewed. Basically you're telling me the only defense a player can commit to is stand in front of their man. If Harden doesn't grab their arm, there is no foul.

I've been mainly talking about other things other than hooking an arm. If that was the point of that video you posted, I only watched the first play and rolled my eyes. I bet the hooking stuff is frustrating to a defender but again, he's not the only one.

I've been talking about his drives where he's slapped on the arm and he's not commiting a charge. Or when he's faced up with his man and his man has his hand directly in front of Harden and Harden lifts up for a shot and is swiped by the defender, even if Harden is making the contact, it's in his normal shooting motion.

The hooking stuff is sometimes pretty bad, but that also happens more when guys go for the ball and miss and then get tangled. As long as slapping arms is a foul, he'll set you up to slap him on the arm.

Remember when Kerr told his guys a few years back not to swipe at the arm? They didn't and Harden wasn't getting fouled. No idea how other coaches haven't figured this out yet. Harden adjusted his game so he'd get fouled more......most other coaches didn't adjust to negate his adjustment.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 09:00 AM
No, but most of the calls Harden gets are when a player has his arm directly in front of Harden and Harden goes up for a shot. He knows he'll make contact with the arm but the defender still shouldn't put it in the way of his shooting motion. If Harden lunged forward in an odd form, then sure, but most of the time he brings it up through the defender's outstretched arm that is in the way of his shooting motion.

dude, Harden draws more foul calls on not even remotely basketball plays than any player ever. It's a disgrace.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 09:02 AM
I totally hear what you're saying but I think you're missing the broader point here.

I have told you that he DOES get calls his way but he also doesn't always get benefit of the doubt. I understand how you feel too because I can not have a reasonable conversation about Garnett(I think he's a POS).

Cp3 is terrible too. I get that. I watched him get slightly touched going for a loose ball against Thunder few days ago and fall immediately to the ground to get the call. I've called him out on it in the past and will continue to do so.

The difference is that last play James didn't get the call was kind of a big play. Game was on the line and I'm sure we want the correct call whether it hurts or benefits us. That no call hurt us bigtime (Gasol ended up hitting game winner).

You showing me a flop compilation is like me showing you that Harden defense compilation and basing the following 2 years on it. I can post a video right now of Harden playing good defense and you wouldn't click on it lol.

Plus you even said that you try not to watch so you're already not aware of the discrepancy between correct calls and wrong ones/no calls.

I lived in Houston for 19 years (until 3.5 years ago), so I have watched a ton of Harden. The last 2 years, I have watched him play the Wolves, and maybe 10-12 quarters of him outside that. It's embarrassing what he does. Straight up embarrassing. The mere fact that the league allows him to get away with what he does, infuriates me. So I choose not to watch him much. Anytime I do, within 2 minutes he is pulling his bs antics.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 09:03 AM
If he's going up to shoot and a defender's arms are extended horizontally, then I disagree with you.

Harden's entire goal, when the defender is retreating, it to find a limb, hook it, and flail upwards. By no means is he even trying to shoot, he is trying to goat the ref into a whistle.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 11:05 AM
But putting your arm in there and it hits the offensive is a foul. If a defensive player puts his arms over another player and the offensive player goes to shoot and his hands hit the defensive player's arms, then it's a defensive foul. If it's all ball then it's all ball but If a guy goes through his shooting motion and you're already invading his space? Don't invade his space.

Just curious ... Harden's "shooting motion" includes all kinds of moves no other player does ... can Draymond Green claim a high kick (or an upper cut if you prefer) is part of his shooting motion and start drawing fouls on defenders while they lay on the ground holding their junk? Hey, don't invade his space!

Scoots
10-11-2017, 11:07 AM
But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.

If only that's how it was called ALL THE TIME. Players swipe, don't hit anything but ball, the player acts out contact, and gets the call regularly. Players don't swipe, the player bangs into the defender and blocking is called more often than not.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 11:08 AM
We are talking about 2 diff things. I'm not talking about the blatant hooks and b.s. he sometimes does. I'm talking about the times a defender is legitimately playing craps defense with his hands checking rather than trying to move feet.


No, that shouldn't be a foul. It's if arms are horizontal but forward rather than vertical.



Exactly. Harden can drive in and extend his arms all he wants. Don't swipe and get all arm then complain.

Okay, but Harden hooks defenders arms when they are out to the side too and gets the call.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 11:13 AM
Remember when Kerr told his guys a few years back not to swipe at the arm? They didn't and Harden wasn't getting fouled. No idea how other coaches haven't figured this out yet. Harden adjusted his game so he'd get fouled more......most other coaches didn't adjust to negate his adjustment.

Most teams are not smart enough to change their habits ... and the Warriors still get caught reaching on Harden a LOT, but at least they have the ability to admit they are embarrassed for being caught.

Still, the rule should change. If a defender is not moving, even if some part of his body is in range of the shooter managing to get part of his body to touch the defender, if the offensive player creates the contact it should not be a foul on the defender ... most of the time it shouldn't be a foul on the offensive player either ... it's just a low percentage way to shoot if you are smacking your arms into a defender who is not creating the contact. The offensive player can move away to shoot, in fact that is what was done for most of the history of basketball.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 11:15 AM
Harden's entire goal, when the defender is retreating, it to find a limb, hook it, and flail upwards. By no means is he even trying to shoot, he is trying to goat the ref into a whistle.

No, he is trying to shoot. If you watch games where the refs are not giving him the calls, the awkward "shooting motion" causes his FG% to plummet and his TO rate climbs though.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 11:23 AM
No, he is trying to shoot. If you watch games where the refs are not giving him the calls, the awkward "shooting motion" causes his FG% to plummet and his TO rate climbs though.

his intent is not to shoot, it's to draw a foul, then turn it into a shooting foul after he feels contact.

Htownballa1622
10-11-2017, 12:12 PM
Okay, but Harden hooks defenders arms when they are out to the side too and gets the call.
I've addressed this^^^
"I'm not talking about the blatant hooks and b.s. he sometimes does. I'm talking about the times a defender is legitimately playing craps defense with his hands checking rather than trying to move feet. "

Htownballa1622
10-11-2017, 12:14 PM
his intent is not to shoot, it's to draw a foul, then turn it into a shooting foul after he feels contact.

If his intent is not to shoot, he must never get and 1s huh?

valade16
10-11-2017, 12:38 PM
If his intent is not to shoot, he must never get and 1s huh?

Interestingly enough, he doesn't:

http://www.nbaminer.com/four-point-plays-and-one/

He was 53rd in the league in And 1's with 27. For a guy who led the league in Free Throw Attempts that's a pretty low number. So no, he wasn't getting very many And 1's at all.

IndyRealist
10-11-2017, 12:54 PM
But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.

Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact. They've legislated in favor of the ballhandler because they don't want pushing and shoving to be the norm.

In my opinion, the defender is entitled to the space he occupies if he is not moving. If the offensive player initiates the contact, even if it's in the act of shooting, it should be a no call or a charge if the defender is not moving. That includes arms.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2017, 01:30 PM
Interestingly enough, he doesn't:

http://www.nbaminer.com/four-point-plays-and-one/

He was 53rd in the league in And 1's with 27. For a guy who led the league in Free Throw Attempts that's a pretty low number. So no, he wasn't getting very many And 1's at all.

I was gonna point this out too. I read somewhere (can't find it atm) that said that his and-1 ratio to shooting fouls is absurdly disproportionate. It's a rather disgusting anomaly. He rarely looks to score when drawing these shooting fouls.

MygirlhatesCod
10-11-2017, 01:34 PM
why defend harden so hard when he is clearly guilty of exploiting the refs and making basketball painful to watch? his and russ's game is fly in and create contact. worst styles ever! hopefully this new rule prevents some of these free throw contests.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 01:44 PM
If his intent is not to shoot, he must never get and 1s huh?

Harden is a master of getting a shot off after he draws the foul, which is his intent to do first and foremost. I mean unless you think he is looking to shoot from 45 feet coming off a pick?

Dude, stop defending him. He plays absolute beatch ball, and there is no way around it. The fact that the NBA lets him get away with antics that would get him shanked on a playground frustrates me to death.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 01:47 PM
Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact. They've legislated in favor of the ballhandler because they don't want pushing and shoving to be the norm.

In my opinion, the defender is entitled to the space he occupies if he is not moving. If the offensive player initiates the contact, even if it's in the act of shooting, it should be a no call or a charge if the defender is not moving. That includes arms.

yep. They got rid of the rip-through for that reason. A defender has his arm stationary in front of him, Harden finds it, molests it, jumps up, acts like a car hit him, and the foul is called. The defender just laughs.

That sums up 5-ish possessions a game watching James harden.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 01:48 PM
why defend harden so hard when he is clearly guilty of exploiting the refs and making basketball painful to watch? his and russ's game is fly in and create contact. worst styles ever! hopefully this new rule prevents some of these free throw contests.

he is the least appealing star ever to me. He scores a few hundred points a year off non-basketball plays entirely. They are soccer theatrics.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 01:51 PM
I've addressed this^^^
"I'm not talking about the blatant hooks and b.s. he sometimes does. I'm talking about the times a defender is legitimately playing craps defense with his hands checking rather than trying to move feet. "

Nobody is saying Harden isn't fouled. The issue is only, as far as I can tell, with him and others is creating the contact with the sole purpose being to get a foul.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 01:53 PM
If his intent is not to shoot, he must never get and 1s huh?

Never? No. He doesn't always do anything so he occasionally gets fouled while using a normal shooting motion, and he makes those crazy shooting motion shots too because he's REALLY good at it. But the intent to get fouled is obvious. And it's not just Harden, he's just the best player doing it at a high frequency and the best at it.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 02:04 PM
Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact. They've legislated in favor of the ballhandler because they don't want pushing and shoving to be the norm.

In my opinion, the defender is entitled to the space he occupies if he is not moving. If the offensive player initiates the contact, even if it's in the act of shooting, it should be a no call or a charge if the defender is not moving. That includes arms.

This is the point I've been trying to make.

Actually, I'd allow the defenders to move as long as it's not them creating the contact. I don't have time to look up the actual letter of the rules, but it used to be that a defender backing toward the basket or trying to get out of the way of an offensive player were less likely to be called for blocks and more likely to get a no call with the refs making a judgement call on who was more at fault for the contact and how much the contact influenced the shot. With Harden making 100% sure his shot is effected by the contact that's one decision the refs don't get, and the anti-contact rules and the emphasis there takes away the other option the refs used to have.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 02:20 PM
Just curious ... Harden's "shooting motion" includes all kinds of moves no other player does ... can Draymond Green claim a high kick (or an upper cut if you prefer) is part of his shooting motion and start drawing fouls on defenders while they lay on the ground holding their junk? Hey, don't invade his space!

No? What a stupid question. He's not kicking his leg up in warm ups. He's not kicking his foot out on an open shot. C'mon Scoots.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 02:31 PM
Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact. They've legislated in favor of the ballhandler because they don't want pushing and shoving to be the norm.

In my opinion, the defender is entitled to the space he occupies if he is not moving. If the offensive player initiates the contact, even if it's in the act of shooting, it should be a no call or a charge if the defender is not moving. That includes arms.

When he's driving and the defender slaps his arm trying to poke the ball out? That shouldn't be a foul?


I typed more but it doesn't matter. I debated with myself to say anything and just let the Usuals ***** and moan for a bit and it'll pass for awhile but I got bored. Now I'm not bored and I know I won't change any minds.

warfelg
10-11-2017, 03:58 PM
When he's driving and the defender slaps his arm trying to poke the ball out? That shouldn't be a foul?


I typed more but it doesn't matter. I debated with myself to say anything and just let the Usuals ***** and moan for a bit and it'll pass for awhile but I got bored. Now I'm not bored and I know I won't change any minds.

Itís a foul. Not a shooting foul.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 04:57 PM
Itís a foul. Not a shooting foul.

Getting slapped across the arm in the paint on your way to the hoop isn't a shooting foul? Guess we should go back to No Blood No Foul.

warfelg
10-11-2017, 05:05 PM
Driving to the hoop is not being in the act of shooting.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 05:06 PM
No? What a stupid question. He's not kicking his leg up in warm ups. He's not kicking his foot out on an open shot. C'mon Scoots.

Like I said "or an upper cut if you prefer" ... so what if it's an upper cut punch that he calls part of his shooting motion. I was making it absurd to make a point.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 05:10 PM
When he's driving and the defender slaps his arm trying to poke the ball out? That shouldn't be a foul?


I typed more but it doesn't matter. I debated with myself to say anything and just let the Usuals ***** and moan for a bit and it'll pass for awhile but I got bored. Now I'm not bored and I know I won't change any minds.

You keep going back to the defender hacking ... he said "he just has his arms out" ... not hacking.

So, just to clarify, you are maintaining that a stationary defender can commit a foul? That a defender has to actively get away from an offensive player lest the offensive player create contact on the defender wherein the defender should get called with a foul. That is your position? Since that's what we're talking about.

IndyRealist
10-11-2017, 05:10 PM
When he's driving and the defender slaps his arm trying to poke the ball out? That shouldn't be a foul?


I typed more but it doesn't matter. I debated with myself to say anything and just let the Usuals ***** and moan for a bit and it'll pass for awhile but I got bored. Now I'm not bored and I know I won't change any minds.

Did you not read what I wrote? IF the defender initiates the contact it is the defenders fault. If the defender is not moving AND THE BALLHANDLER INITIATES THE CONTACT it should be a no call or a charge.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 05:11 PM
Itís a foul. Not a shooting foul.

From what I've seen that's true only outside the 3 point line. Inside the line it's still possible for it to be a shooting foul.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 06:12 PM
Like I said "or an upper cut if you prefer" ... so what if it's an upper cut punch that he calls part of his shooting motion. I was making it absurd to make a point.

Your point is invalid, though. Harden shoots by bringing the ball up and then in front of his face. Almost every person shoots this way. No one has ever shot like they were uppercutting a person or kicking their feet out unless someone is around.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 06:47 PM
Everyone is talking about 3 or 4 different plays that are ruled in different ways. The rip ups, the arm tangling, the arm raking on drives, the extended hand in the shooter's motion. I reply to one guy and Indy thinks I'm talking about a different play. Indy, I'm talking about his drives where he gets slapped and you're asking me about when I guy isn't moving his arms. We're talking about two different things.


And now I'm hearing (from a guy who said
3 times in last years nationally televised Sixers/Rockets game he got a call from contact before crossing mid-court, heaved it up, and got the call for a shooting foul. but still hasn't provided a link) that a guy drives the lane, collects the ball and as he's going up for a layup and gets slapped, it's not a shooting foul? It's just a common foul? This is getting too stupid. I can't keep up with this.

THE_LOGO
10-11-2017, 07:13 PM
Ever since the NBA instituted the "continuation foul" every player shoots after contact. The difference with Harden is his intention to initiate contact and then shoot. Its not a reflex, its deliberate. However, the league allowed this BS so to me Harden is a "manufactured star." I have no respect for his game whatsoever. Also, every time I see him, I just want to punch his duck face through his stupid beard.

Since, the swing through was mentioned, I disagree that it shouldn't be allowed. Maybe because I'm old but the way I was taught to play defense was "if you reach, I teach." So if a defender has his arm out in front of him, the offensive player has every right to use that to his advantage. I still don't know why it's the KD rule since he just copied it off Kobe. Anyway, maybe because I'm old, the defenders hands should be straight up or to the sides, never in front.

IndyRealist
10-11-2017, 07:42 PM
But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.


Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact. They've legislated in favor of the ballhandler because they don't want pushing and shoving to be the norm.

In my opinion, the defender is entitled to the space he occupies if he is not moving. If the offensive player initiates the contact, even if it's in the act of shooting, it should be a no call or a charge if the defender is not moving. That includes arms.

When he's driving and the defender slaps his arm trying to poke the ball out? That shouldn't be a foul?


I typed more but it doesn't matter. I debated with myself to say anything and just let the Usuals ***** and moan for a bit and it'll pass for awhile but I got bored. Now I'm not bored and I know I won't change any minds.


Everyone is talking about 3 or 4 different plays that are ruled in different ways. The rip ups, the arm tangling, the arm raking on drives, the extended hand in the shooter's motion. I reply to one guy and Indy thinks I'm talking about a different play. Indy, I'm talking about his drives where he gets slapped and you're asking me about when I guy isn't moving his arms. We're talking about two different things.


And now I'm hearing (from a guy who said but still hasn't provided a link) that a guy drives the lane, collects the ball and as he's going up for a layup and gets slapped, it's not a shooting foul? It's just a common foul? This is getting too stupid. I can't keep up with this.

Here's the whole conversation between us. I clearly made 2 points.
1) That a defender slapping at the ball is not what everyone but you is talking about, and
2) That if the ballhandler initiates the contact, it should be an offensive foul or a no call in my opinion.

Somehow you got from that, that I'm saying that if the defender initiates the contact it shouldn't be a foul.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 08:02 PM
Here's the whole conversation between us. I clearly made 2 points.
1) That a defender slapping at the ball is not what everyone but you is talking about, and
2) That if the ballhandler initiates the contact, it should be an offensive foul or a no call in my opinion.

Somehow you got from that, that I'm saying that if the defender initiates the contact it shouldn't be a foul.

This is so goddamn frustrating. I was having a convo with Scoots and regardless of whether he or I were confused at what the other one was talking about you came in on the first post you just quoted. Which says "But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.". You replied with "Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact." But in my post the "defender swipes at it" and you reply with "The defender isn't making a play on the ball". The swipe is the play on the ball!

How the hell are you arguing against what I just posted? You want to talk about different plays? Don't quote and argue over the post that I just wrote. If Harden runs into a guy? Call the charge. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the defender swiping and coming in contact with a part of Harden's body (arm, head, body).

warfelg
10-11-2017, 08:13 PM
From what I've seen that's true only outside the 3 point line. Inside the line it's still possible for it to be a shooting foul.

Possible. But unlikely. Itís like that tip through move. How many people start a shooting motion down at their waist?

I saw some Sixers players do it at one time or another. Embiid was the one on the team that was guilty of it. Pump fake to get the guy to raise his arms, and if it was successful throw up the ball hitting the guys arm to get the call.

I hate it. Just hate it. Offensive players are able to get calls just too easily and playing defense is impossible.

FlashBolt
10-11-2017, 09:10 PM
The consensus from us all is that Harden looks to get these blatant incorrect foul calls knowing very well that it is an improper call. He's great at deceiving the refs and he legitimately practices it. No player somehow mistakingly grabs your arm rather than shoot it unless they plan on doing so. It's not fun basketball to watch but like I said, I've seen players do cheap crap to get an advantage (KG was never regulated at all) so why should Harden stop doing it if it works? Goal is to win the game. He's a damn elite player to be doing all of this, by the way. Does he really need to pretend he got fouled to dominate a game? C'mon, it's pathetic.. A top ten (some say top five or whatever) and an MVP candidate shouldn't be resorting to these tactics. A defender who is sliding into position and Harden ends up brushing right next to them, shouldn't be called for a foul if Harden literally hooks their arms. Defenders can't touch the guy if we're going to be talking about "don't swipe." Plenty of guys swipe. If I stick my hand out to try and steal the ball, it should be an offensive foul if you grab my arm and not the other way around.

FlashBolt
10-11-2017, 09:12 PM
This is so goddamn frustrating. I was having a convo with Scoots and regardless of whether he or I were confused at what the other one was talking about you came in on the first post you just quoted. Which says "But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.". You replied with "Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact." But in my post the "defender swipes at it" and you reply with "The defender isn't making a play on the ball". The swipe is the play on the ball!

How the hell are you arguing against what I just posted? You want to talk about different plays? Don't quote and argue over the post that I just wrote. If Harden runs into a guy? Call the charge. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the defender swiping and coming in contact with a part of Harden's body (arm, head, body).

Why would we have a problem with Harden getting legitimately hit? I'm sure most of his FT attempts are legitimate ones but let's stop pretending that he doesn't deceive the refs with his slick acting skills. We have an issue with a great player doing what he does and it not being regulated. That's not Harden's fault but it's just a tad-bit annoying watching your team guard the guy and there he goes, bopping his neck back and running close to defenders so he can grab their arm.. not cool.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 09:22 PM
Why would we have a problem with Harden getting legitimately hit? I'm sure most of his FT attempts are legitimate ones but let's stop pretending that he doesn't deceive the refs with his slick acting skills. We have an issue with a great player doing what he does and it not being regulated. That's not Harden's fault but it's just a tad-bit annoying watching your team guard the guy and there he goes, bopping his neck back and running close to defenders so he can grab their arm.. not cool.

Because a lot d times he is legitimately hit. Of course not every one of his fouls are legit. And he doesn't get some legit fouls called fir him and he gets called for some bs stuff as well. Like any player. Just like others who deceive the refs, I feel what you guys are saying is frustrating. Guys used to stop in front of Yao and just fall down. Happened everytime KG played against him it seemed. I didn't go out of my way to go into every KG related thread or start my own threads about them. It gets old. Most of what he does is legit fouls, whether he's pulling a fast one or he knows guys are dumb enough to reach or swipe. That's not on him.


Some stuff is on him, though......but not at the level he gets *****ed at for.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 09:26 PM
The consensus from us all is that Harden looks to get these blatant incorrect foul calls knowing very well that it is an improper call. He's great at deceiving the refs and he legitimately practices it. No player somehow mistakingly grabs your arm rather than shoot it unless they plan on doing so. It's not fun basketball to watch but like I said, I've seen players do cheap crap to get an advantage (KG was never regulated at all) so why should Harden stop doing it if it works? Goal is to win the game. He's a damn elite player to be doing all of this, by the way. Does he really need to pretend he got fouled to dominate a game? C'mon, it's pathetic.. A top ten (some say top five or whatever) and an MVP candidate shouldn't be resorting to these tactics. A defender who is sliding into position and Harden ends up brushing right next to them, shouldn't be called for a foul if Harden literally hooks their arms. Defenders can't touch the guy if we're going to be talking about "don't swipe." Plenty of guys swipe. If I stick my hand out to try and steal the ball, it should be an offensive foul if you grab my arm and not the other way around.

But defenders that swipe at the ball and miss and slap Harden are committing a foul. You can't slap someone or take your finger nails over them or palm thrust them or whatever. Most guys hold the ball close to their body so players don't even try to swipe for the ball. Harden holds it out and guys think they can swipe the ball away.

And who's talking about grabbing arms? If you stick your hand out to try to steal the ball and someone "grabs" your arm then yeah, that should always be called an offensive foul, no matter who does it.

Saddletramp
10-11-2017, 09:43 PM
Possible. But unlikely. Itís like that tip through move. How many people start a shooting motion down at their waist?

I saw some Sixers players do it at one time or another. Embiid was the one on the team that was guilty of it. Pump fake to get the guy to raise his arms, and if it was successful throw up the ball hitting the guys arm to get the call.

I hate the "pump fake then shoulder block the defender" move. That's not a natural shot for the offensive player to take. Shot putting the ball with your dominant hand while your off shoulder is burrowing into the defender is ********, even if it benefits the team I'm cheering for. And before you say its the same thing like ripping up through a defenders reach out, no, it's not. The reach out ends with a shot being normally made and not a shot put or lunge of the ball toward the hoop (unless the defender alters the shot).


I hate it. Just hate it. Offensive players are able to get calls just too easily and playing defense is impossible.

I hate it too. I also hate guys just standing there to take a charge. 9 times out of ten you can tell if a guy just gets run over by playing defense or if he's just not even trying to play defense and he's looking to get run over to take a charge. If it's legit, no problem with a charge being called. But if a guy just stops to fall down over contact? Always hard that, even if it benefits who I'm cheering for.

ewing
10-11-2017, 10:28 PM
he is the least appealing star ever to me. He scores a few hundred points a year off non-basketball plays entirely. They are soccer theatrics.

he is reggie miller with a handle.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 11:57 PM
Your point is invalid, though. Harden shoots by bringing the ball up and then in front of his face. Almost every person shoots this way. No one has ever shot like they were uppercutting a person or kicking their feet out unless someone is around.

Are you being intentionally obtuse or are you actually not getting it? Harden uses what would be considered terrible shooting form when he's trying to draw a foul rather than shoot a high percentage shot. He convinced the refs to consider it a normal thing ... maybe someone else can convince them a 360 spin is part of their regular shooting motion.

Scoots
10-11-2017, 11:58 PM
Everyone is talking about 3 or 4 different plays that are ruled in different ways. The rip ups, the arm tangling, the arm raking on drives, the extended hand in the shooter's motion. I reply to one guy and Indy thinks I'm talking about a different play. Indy, I'm talking about his drives where he gets slapped and you're asking me about when I guy isn't moving his arms. We're talking about two different things.


And now I'm hearing (from a guy who said but still hasn't provided a link) that a guy drives the lane, collects the ball and as he's going up for a layup and gets slapped, it's not a shooting foul? It's just a common foul? This is getting too stupid. I can't keep up with this.

I think you are the only one talking about arm raking or hacking.

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:03 AM
This is so goddamn frustrating. I was having a convo with Scoots and regardless of whether he or I were confused at what the other one was talking about you came in on the first post you just quoted. Which says "But he's getting fouled. When you hold the ball tight or loose and your defender swipes at it and hits your arm instead, it's a foul. Don't swipe and if he bangs into you, it's a charge.". You replied with "Except that's not what happens. The defender isn't making a play on the ball, he just has his arms out. The offensive player is initiating contact." But in my post the "defender swipes at it" and you reply with "The defender isn't making a play on the ball". The swipe is the play on the ball!

How the hell are you arguing against what I just posted? You want to talk about different plays? Don't quote and argue over the post that I just wrote. If Harden runs into a guy? Call the charge. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the defender swiping and coming in contact with a part of Harden's body (arm, head, body).

I'm starting to wonder if the posts are mixed up somehow. I'll try shorter posts.

When Harden is hacked nobody is saying it's not a foul.

Saddletramp
10-12-2017, 12:03 AM
Are you being intentionally obtuse or are you actually not getting it? Harden uses what would be considered terrible shooting form when he's trying to draw a foul rather than shoot a high percentage shot. He convinced the refs to consider it a normal thing ... maybe someone else can convince them a 360 spin is part of their regular shooting motion.

360 spin? Again, we're talking about different moves. I've never seen Harden facing up a guy, the guy reaches his arm directly in front of Harden, Harden brings the ball up through the defender as he's slapped on the arm and shoots while doing a 360. That's ludicrous. Unless you're talking about his driving while I'm talking about his shooting (just like earlier when you were talking about his shooting when I was talking about his driving) you owe me a link, just like war still does.

Saddletramp
10-12-2017, 12:05 AM
I think you are the only one talking about arm raking or hacking.

Awesome. I think this has run its course.

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:06 AM
Because a lot d times he is legitimately hit. Of course not every one of his fouls are legit. And he doesn't get some legit fouls called fir him and he gets called for some bs stuff as well. Like any player. Just like others who deceive the refs, I feel what you guys are saying is frustrating. Guys used to stop in front of Yao and just fall down. Happened everytime KG played against him it seemed. I didn't go out of my way to go into every KG related thread or start my own threads about them. It gets old. Most of what he does is legit fouls, whether he's pulling a fast one or he knows guys are dumb enough to reach or swipe. That's not on him.


Some stuff is on him, though......but not at the level he gets *****ed at for.

Still trying ...

NOBODY is saying he doesn't get legit fouls.

NOBODY is saying he's the only one who works a call from the refs.

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:09 AM
But defenders that swipe at the ball and miss and slap Harden are committing a foul. You can't slap someone or take your finger nails over them or palm thrust them or whatever. Most guys hold the ball close to their body so players don't even try to swipe for the ball. Harden holds it out and guys think they can swipe the ball away.

And who's talking about grabbing arms? If you stick your hand out to try to steal the ball and someone "grabs" your arm then yeah, that should always be called an offensive foul, no matter who does it.

This is not about players swiping at Harden and him getting hit. NOT.

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:10 AM
I hate the "pump fake then shoulder block the defender" move. That's not a natural shot for the offensive player to take. Shot putting the ball with your dominant hand while your off shoulder is burrowing into the defender is ********, even if it benefits the team I'm cheering for. And before you say its the same thing like ripping up through a defenders reach out, no, it's not. The reach out ends with a shot being normally made and not a shot put or lunge of the ball toward the hoop (unless the defender alters the shot).



I hate it too. I also hate guys just standing there to take a charge. 9 times out of ten you can tell if a guy just gets run over by playing defense or if he's just not even trying to play defense and he's looking to get run over to take a charge. If it's legit, no problem with a charge being called. But if a guy just stops to fall down over contact? Always hard that, even if it benefits who I'm cheering for.

Hmm ... an unnatural shooting motion where the point is collecting a foul? Do tell.

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:10 AM
he is reggie miller with a handle.

and more facial hair.

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:12 AM
360 spin? Again, we're talking about different moves. I've never seen Harden facing up a guy, the guy reaches his arm directly in front of Harden, Harden brings the ball up through the defender as he's slapped on the arm and shoots while doing a 360. That's ludicrous. Unless you're talking about his driving while I'm talking about his shooting (just like earlier when you were talking about his shooting when I was talking about his driving) you owe me a link, just like war still does.

It was an intentionally absurd hypothetical. I didn't mention Harden, I put a different player's name in there didn't I?

Feel free to not respond.

Saddletramp
10-12-2017, 12:49 AM
Hmm ... an unnatural shooting motion where the point is collecting a foul? Do tell.

Yeah. Those pump fake shoulder burrow moves are ridiculous. To equate it to Harden's moves? Get out with that.



It was an intentionally absurd hypothetical. I didn't mention Harden, I put a different player's name in there didn't I?

Feel free to not respond.

Stop going for laughs in a serious conversation online. I'm not going to decipher your context. "I know I said something stupid but I was just joking, man."

Saddletramp
10-12-2017, 01:09 AM
This is not about players swiping at Harden and him getting hit. NOT.

My original *****ing about swiping was due to Hawk and you saying this:


Or when he drives to the rim, runs out of room, then dives into the defender while throwing his arms up, and the foul is called on a backing up defender who is helpless?


Who drives the lane with the ball in both hands and both arms at full extension and straight out in front? One player.

Those plays are where he gets hacked, he doesn't just "dive(s) into his defender and throws his hands up".

So I didn't bring up the drives and the swipes are implied because that's how he gets fouled on those drives. Sometimes he locks arms but he gets called for that enough where it's not a point to ***** about.

EDITED TO ADD: Actually, I rewatched the original videos and Harden does run into guys that are between him and the basket on fast breaks sometimes. But that's not a Harden thing enough to call it his rule. And when a guy just stops what is he supposed to do? The defender isn't playing defense at that point.....he's just trying to get in the way. That's not basketball to me.

If Hawk would have said "during the fast break" I probably wouldn't have said anything. I definitely wouldn't have said that if you didn't say "drives the lane". I don't equate "Running the fast break" and "driving the lane" even if a player drives the lane while he's running the fast break.


This is a mess, I know. And I don't think everyone (including me) has articulated as well as we could have.

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:52 AM
I can't decide who I despise more: Harden or Westbrook. Both are an insult to the game albeit in slightly different ways. I just can't stand watching Harden dribble out every single possession so that only he can record an assist or a basket or a pair of free throws. The way he baited refs has been an ongoing insult to the integrity of the game.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised the NBA has explicitly addressed Harden's flopping. It comes amidst a flurry of decisions; this one makes sense, others less so.

The NBA all star "captains" choosing teams? What a dumb move. This can only generate petty schoolyard level drama. The all star game is already an embarrassment, why make it even more of a farce and embarrassment? It's not even a game at this point. I wouldn't even know what to call it. The players see it as a necessary evil at best, a downright inconvenience at worst.

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:06 PM
Yeah. Those pump fake shoulder burrow moves are ridiculous. To equate it to Harden's moves? Get out with that.




Stop going for laughs in a serious conversation online. I'm not going to decipher your context. "I know I said something stupid but I was just joking, man."

I didn't equate anything. Un-natural shooting motions with the purpose being collecting a foul should not collect fouls. They should be low percentage plays that should not have the refs bail them out.

I'm not going for laughs. The point is that if a player can go for contact and call it a shooting motion can a player do anything and call it part of their shooting motion?

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:10 PM
My original *****ing about swiping was due to Hawk and you saying this:





Those plays are where he gets hacked, he doesn't just "dive(s) into his defender and throws his hands up".

So I didn't bring up the drives and the swipes are implied because that's how he gets fouled on those drives. Sometimes he locks arms but he gets called for that enough where it's not a point to ***** about.

EDITED TO ADD: Actually, I rewatched the original videos and Harden does run into guys that are between him and the basket on fast breaks sometimes. But that's not a Harden thing enough to call it his rule. And when a guy just stops what is he supposed to do? The defender isn't playing defense at that point.....he's just trying to get in the way. That's not basketball to me.

If Hawk would have said "during the fast break" I probably wouldn't have said anything. I definitely wouldn't have said that if you didn't say "drives the lane". I don't equate "Running the fast break" and "driving the lane" even if a player drives the lane while he's running the fast break.


This is a mess, I know. And I don't think everyone (including me) has articulated as well as we could have.

So I said it then and I'm saying it now. I said nothing about the defenders swiping or hacking and neither did Hawk, you added that in on your own.

I didn't call it the Harden rule.

Getting in the way of the guy with the ball is pretty fundamental to basketball defense.

It is a mess ... and I'm probably being too pedantic about it ... but it seemed you were putting words in my mouth and I have mostly just been re-iterating that I am being assigned things that I did not say nor intend.