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View Full Version : NBA No MVP All-Time Redraft Finals. TIEBREAKER 24 HOURS!



valade16
10-05-2017, 12:25 PM
Members of the PSD Community came together and participated in an All-Time NBA Redraft. They drafted, traded and signed all time players to create the best team possible. This is the 1st Round of the playoffs.

Special stipulations for this game included: No NBA or ABA MVP winners eligible. Each team had to start (and play 24 minutes) 2 players who did not play a single game after 1990. Additionally, each player is judged on the a single season/the best season of their career, as selected by the GM.

Please look at the teams and vote for which team you think would win in a 7 game series.

Seaside Seagulls has home court advantage for the series:

Seaside Seagulls:

PG: Gary Payton (36) | Penny Hardaway (12)
SG: Sidney Moncrief (36) | Hersey Hawkins (8) | Penny Hardaway (4)
SF: Dave DeBusschere (24) | Larry Johnson (8) | Penny Hardaway (16)
PF: Jerry Lucas (24) | Elton Brand (24)
C: Marc Gasol (36) | Andrew Bynum (4) | Elton Brand (8)

vs.

Azkaban Dementors:

G: Mark Price (38) - Brandon Roy (12) - Kirk Hinrich (Reserve)
G: Scottie Pippen (35) - Brandon Roy (12) - Dan Majerle (2)
F: Grant Hill (33) - Dan Majerle (10) - Scottie Pippen (5)
F: Dan Roundfield (33) - Carlos Boozer (12) - Grant Hill (3)
C: Walt Bellamy (36) - Vlade Divac (12)

Shammyguy3
10-05-2017, 02:42 PM
Will post argument later this evening

Shammyguy3
10-05-2017, 10:22 PM
1) Scottie Pippen is the best player in this series.
The Bulls didn't skip a beat after Jordan retired, and Pippen posted career numbers on higher efficiency in doing so. I'm assuming Moncrief will guard Pippen, and that is a size mismatch. Moncrief is 6'3 and 180 pounds. Pippen is 6'8 and 210 pounds. Pippen's ability to run pick & roll and post-up with this size mismatch will be a difficult task for Squid. Here is Pippen's statistically best season:

1994 Scottie Pippen: 22.0ppg - 8.7rpg - 5.6apg - 2.9spg - 0.8bpg - 109 ORtg - 7.2 VORP (3rd) - 8.3 BPM (2nd) - 23.2 PER (4th) - 54.4ts% - 24.6ast% - 27.1usg% - 0.194 WS/48 (9th)


2) Azkaban's offense is superior to Seasides:
Azkaban has 5 damn good offensive players on its team. Not one of them is a liability to score the ball. Also, all 5 are great passers. So while Seaside has phenomenal defenders, Gary Payton and Sidney Moncrief will have to run around screens, fight through picks, etc. This series won't be won playing isolation basketball, which is something Payton and Moncrief were masters at defending.

Seaside wants to keep it in the half-court. But Azkaban will push the ball in transition and be able to keep the pace up too high for Seaside to keep up. And when we enter half-court, well.... Azkaban will win the battle on the boards.


3) Azkaban's rebounding/athleticism will help push up the pace.
Mark Price 6'0 170 versus Gary Payton 6'4 1'80
Scottie Pippen 6'8 210 versus Sidney Moncrief 6'3 180
Grant Hill 6'8 225 versus Dave DeBusschere 6'6 220
Dan Roundfield 6'8 205 versus Jerry Lucas 6'8 230
Walt Bellamy 6'11 225 versus Marc Gasol 7'1 255

Given that, let's compare total rebounding rates (trb%) and rebounds per game during each players' best season:

Mark Price 4.8% and 2.7rpg versus Gary Payton 8.5% and 6.5rpg
Scottie Pippen 13.3% and 8.7rpg versus Sidney Moncrief 8.9% and 5.8rpg
Grant Hill 14.2% and 9.0rpg versus Dave DeBusschere 11.7rpg (trb% unavailable for prime year, 4 years available averaged 14.3%)
Dan Roundfield 17.3% and 10.3rpg versus Jerry Lucas 15.3% and 15.6rpg
Walt Bellamy 19.0rpg (trb% unavailable for prime year, 5 years available 16.1%) versus Marc Gasol 10.5% and 6.3rpg

Now, we know that PACE and zone defenses would have an impact on these. Both teams have very good rebounders that we don't have the best data on (insert Jerry Lucas, Dave DeBusschere, Walt Bellamy). Now the edge here belongs to Azkaban, because Seaside will be relying on their wings to crash the boards with their two best perimeter shooting threats arguably being their PF and C. If their bigs are out on the perimeter that gives Azkaban a huge advantage on the glass (more to come on Roundfield's excellent ability to defend perimeter forwards)


4) Mark Price is Steve Nash (per36 comparison).
Price over a 3 year span posted 20.5/9.0 while shooting 48.3% from the field, 40.1% from deep taking 4 a game, had a 120 ORtg, a 60.1ts%, a 39.4ast% and 14.3tov%, a 3.17 ast/tov ratio, and a 22.5 PER.

Nash over a 3 year span posted 18.2/11.5 while shooting 51.6% from the field, 44.3% from deep taking 4 a game, had a 123 ORtg, a 63.1ts%, a 47.8ast%, and a 20.1tov%, a 3.18 ast/tov ratio, and a 23.0 PER

Here is Price's best statistical season:
1993 Mark Price: 18.2ppg - 2.7rpg - 8.0apg - 1.2spg - 3.07 AST/TOV - 41.6 3pt% - 120 ORtg - 3.1 VORP - 3.2 BPM - 22.1 PER (8th in '93) - 60.9ts% (7th in '93)- 38.1ast% (6th in '93) - 24.5usg% - 0.197 WS/48 (7th in '93)

Let's look at Payton versus Price head to head numbers (11 total games):

Payton: 32.6mpg 15.6ppg 6.3apg 3.0rpg 2.9tov 66.3ts% 50.0% 3pt% on 1.3 attempts/game
M. Price: 32.6mpg 17.5ppg 6.3apg 2.4rpg 2.5tov 61.8ts% 44.6% 3pt% on 5.1 attempts/game

What that tells me, is M. Price is able to play exceptionally while being guarded by Gary Payton. But, how will Gary Payton's numbers look when he's being guarded by the best perimeter defender ever in Scottie Pippen?


So, I think Price running an offense with two juggernaut slashers that are also fantastic finishers and passers will be difficult for Seaside to defend. And when you factor in Mark Price gets a huge upgrade in the #1 and #2 options offensively to set up (going from Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance to Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill), I don't see why he wouldn't perform as well as Steve Nash had his best years.

And when there is a big advantage on the glass, with 4 players that are able to push the ball in transition and lead the break (Price, Pippen, Hill especially and partially Roundfield) that becomes huge. Let my wings out-muscle and out-size theirs, and that plays into my offense. If you don't do that, then where is the spacing coming from exactly?

Shammyguy3
10-05-2017, 10:34 PM
5) Walt Bellamy as a half-court dominating presence. Walt Bellamy held his own against all-time greats. Walt Bellamy has played against Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, and others. And he's done very well.

Here is Bellamy's Best Statistical Season


1962 Walt Bellamy: 31.6ppg (2nd) - 19.0rpg (3rd) - 2.7apg - 26.3 PER (3rd) - 55.4ts% (1st) - 20.4usg% - 0.233 WS/48 (2nd) - 13.4 OWS - 16.3 WS (2nd)

Walt Bellamy through a five year stretched averaged 25.5ppg 16.0rpg 2.5apg shooting nearly 52% from the field. His best statistical season, he averaged 31.6ppg 19.0rpg 2.7apg.

The biggest competition for Walt Bellamy ever was Wilt Chamberlain, arguably the best scorer ever, and Bill Russell, arguably the best defender ever. Bellamy played Wilt 90 games against each other in the regular season, and 10 in the playoffs. And guess what? Wilt was Wilt, of course. But Wilt didn't embarrass him anymore than Wilt didn't embarrass Bill Russell, the best defensive player ever. So, Mourning won't necessarily take advantage of a poor defensive center, because Bellamy isn't one of those.

Wilt against Walt: 31.2ppg (90 total games)
Wilt against Russell: 29.9ppg (94 total games)

Now Walt Bellamy played 75 games against Bill Russell. Of those 75 games, we have 35 box-scores that tallied both FGA and FGM for Bellamy against Russell. Here are those numbers:

He shot 281/579 or 48.5% while shooting 389/599 or 64.9% from the charity stripe. That's good for a true shooting percentage of 56.4%. That's pretty darn good against the greatest defensive center ever.

So, if Walt Bellamy can play against Bill Russell and post those efficiency numbers, then he should be able to play against Marc Gasol. And what will make it tougher on Marc Gasol, is the rebounding advantage my team has. Even when M. Gasol isn't on the perimeter, he's a poor rebounder. And Bellamy was a great rebounder. If Seaside tries to double, it will be easy to hit Pippen/Hill slashing or Price on the perimeter for a 3 because of how great a passer Bellamy was. He averaged nearly 3 assists a game. So it isn't like the ball is gonna die once it enters the post.



6) I have a conventional #1, #2, #3, #4. Pippen/Hill are interchangeable, whoever is being guarded by Moncrief will have a size advantage and strenght advantage. My #3 is Price and my #4 is Bellamy. Now, Seaside's best offensive player is likely Gary Payton. But, I don't see how Seaside is built to capitalize on his abilities. Payton doesn't have a great pick & roll big like Shawn Kemp nor does he have floor-spacers to give him room to drive. So I don't think he will be quite as effective. And that's before factoring in Scottie Pippen guarding him.

Which brings me to Sidney Moncrief. I will have Grant Hill guard him, seeing as how Moncrief isn't a great shooter from the perimeter, Hill be play off of him and use his incredible length and athleticism to play the passing lanes.

Here is how bad of a perimeter threat threat Squid is:
in his 4 year prime, he took only 1 three every two games. His statistical best season, he took 10 over 76 games).

Now, I know everyone is thinking: who is Mark Price gonna guard? Well, he'll be guarding Dave DeBusschere predominantly. Why? Well, DeBusschere is somewhat undersized for a SF at only 6'6, and he is by far the least efficient. He has never posted a season with a true shooting percentage above 49.0%. He is only a 69.9% free throw shooter, which is an indicator he wasn't an outside threat; additionally, his free throw rate is less than 30% so he doesn't frequent the charity stripe either. His statistical best season, he only had an 8.8ast%.

So, Dave Debusscher, you want to post-up Price all day long? That's not gonna win. It'll be easy to double an inefficient post-scorer who cannot pass out of the post and has no perimeter game to speak of. So, if Seaside wants to take advantage of this matchup - so be it. Let your most inefficient player try the least efficient offensive play in the game: post-ups. Try it often, see how far it gets you when there are no 3 point threats to worry about on the court.


7) Dan Roundfield is far superior to Jerry Lucas or Dave DeBusschere.
Dan Roundfield was an elite two-way player who would guard the better Forward. He was 5x All NBA Defense and would guard perimeter players as well as post players. Guarding Jerry Lucas wouldn't be challenging. This allows him to stop penetration by Payton/Moncrief, or even help double team the black-hole post-up machine Dave DeBusschere!

Here is Roundfield's statistical prime:


1980 Dan Roundfield: 16.5ppg - 10.3rpg - 2.3apg - 1.2spg - 1.7bpg - 108 ORtg - 4.3 VORP (10th) - 4.6 BPM (8th) 19.7 PER - 55.1ts% - 22.8usg% - 0.169 WS/48

Dan Roundfield is one of the best well-rounded 4s to ever play the game. Most people aren't aware of the fact he was a 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 ast/2 blks and 5x All Defense PF. He played in the late 70's all the way through the mid-to-late 80's. Furthermore, his game would transition perfectly to today's game because he was strong and quick enough to guard SF/PF/C (depending on the center - here, Walt Bellamy will be able to handle Marc Gasol one on one without any assistance, allowing Roundfield to help on rotation defense for slashers/drives. ).

At his peak, Dan Roundfield was a poor man's Duncan. They both had post games, both could shoot midrange, both were amazing lock down defenders (with Duncan guarding centers better than small forwards, vice versa for Dan due to his quickness). Both were good passers, both were unselfish team-first players. Roundfield is a great fit next to the rest of the unselfish players that can pass the ball on Azkaban's roster. Roundfield did not shoot 3 pointers, but he was good from beyond the elbows a la Tim Duncan, and will be able to partake in pick & pops and touch passes off of Mark Price to slashers Pippen and Hill.

Let's not forget previous users on this site bringing up how Dan Roundfield was a better offensive player than Elvin Hayes: Hayes' career high ts% was 54.4% accompanied by a 19.8 PER, a 1.9 OBPM, and 6.6 OWS. Roundfield has a career high ts% of 57.5% accompanied by a 20.7 PER, a 2.5 OBPM, and 4.2 OWS.

So we need to give respect to Roundfield as an offensive player, not just a 5x All-NBA defender (3 of which were 1st team). He's perhaps just as important of an X-factor as other all-time glue guys like Rasheed Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Manu Ginobili, and so forth.



Here's a peak at how great his defense was, as evidenced by the company he shares on this All-Defensive 1st team from the 82-83 season:

Dennis Johnson / Cheeks
Sidney Moncrief
Bobby Jones
Dan Roundfield
Moses Malone


Larry Bird has accredited 2 people for giving him the most fits… Michael Cooper (in spite of the size difference) and Dan “freaking” Roundfield. Due to Roundfields athletic ability and strength, he was quick enough to guard Bird on the perimeter and in the post. Dan Roundfield has given one of the best shooting forwards of all-time a run for his money. He'll be able to not only guard Lucas on the perimeter, but also do so while maintaining his edge on the glass to push the ball in transition.

valade16
10-05-2017, 10:40 PM
I'll have my rebuttal tomorrow morning.

KnicksorBust
10-05-2017, 11:23 PM
I have an inclination toward one team but these 2 GMs def deserve to go a few rounds first. :)

GREATNESS ONE
10-06-2017, 12:01 AM
It's been a popularity contest the whole time, I already picked my vote.

Shammyguy3
10-06-2017, 12:10 AM
It's been a popularity contest the whole time, I already picked my vote.

Hows that

valade16
10-06-2017, 01:06 PM
Here's my arguments:

1. The idea that his offense is better than mine.

Here are the Points per 100 possessions of his starters for the years he selected (for which we have data):

Grant Hill: 30.9
Scottie Pippen: 30.0
Mark Price 29.0
Dan Roundfield: 25.0

Now here are mine:

Sidney Moncrief 30.3
Gary Payton: 29.8
Marc Gasol 29.7

The output for the top 3 are virtually identical (89.9 for him and 89.8 for me). But when you look at bench it gets even worse:

Brandon Roy: 33.7
Carlos Boozer: 31.7
Kirk Hinrich: 24.0
Vlade Divac: 22.9
Dan Majerle: 20.9

Now here's mine:

Elton Brand: 33.0
Penny Hardaway 30.9
Hersey Hawkins: 28.5
Andrew Bynum: 28.2
Larry Johnson: 24.8

My bench goes 4 deep for quality scorers, he has 2. All 5 of my bench players are better scorers than all but 2 of his.

My team has just as much scoring capability in my starting lineup and more overall when you consider my bench advantage. This will be problematic for him because:

2. My defense is better.

I have 2 of the best perimeter defenders of all-time, he only has 1. So while my guys are making life hell for his top 2 offensive options (Pippen and Hill), he can only do so for one of mine. Marc Gasol is still a very good defender and the Grizzlies still finished 7th in Drtg this season.

In contrast to Walt Bellamy, who was not a good defensive anchor, here is where his teams ranked in Drtg:

1962: 7 of 9
1963: 9 of 9
1964: 5 of 9
1965: 9 of 9
1966: 9 of 9
1967: 10 of 10
1968: 5 of 12
1969: 12 of 14
1970: 14 of 14
1971: 11 of 17
1972: 12 of 17
1973: 9 of 17
1974: 9 of 17

The only year Walt was on a team in the upper half of the league in Drtg was 1968 with the Knicks. Interestingly enough, he was traded from the Knicks and in 1969 the Knicks brought in Dave Debusschere, Their Drtg went from 96.5 (5th) in 1968 to 93.3 (4th) in 1969. By 1970 they were at 92.4 and best in the league (winning a championship).

I think we can pretty definitively say that DeBusschere was a better defender than Bellamy given the circumstances.

3. His team has no perimeter shooting.

Outside of Mark Price here is the 3 point shooting in his starting lineup:

Pippen: 0.9 on 2.7 (32%)
Hill: 0.1 on 0.4 (30%)

He has 2 guys on his bench:

Majerle: 2 on 5.3 (38.1%)
Roy: 1.1 on 2.8 (37.7%)

He's basically got 3 guys on his team that can shoot the 3 with any sort of consistency. Contrast to my team which has:

Payton: 2.2 on 6.3 (34%)
Gasol: 1.4 on 3.6 (38.8%)

and Jerry Lucas:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/lucasj_bio.html

Lucas tallied 14,053 points (17.0 ppg) and finished with a lofty .499 career field-goal percentage, an impressive statistic considering that many of his points came on rainbow jumpers launched from long distance.

His offensive repertoire included an accurate one-hand push shot that he launched from 20 to 25 feet and that went in with such regularity that one sportswriter dubbed it "the Lucas Layup."

So I have more 3pt shooting in my starting lineup, and on my bench:

Hawkins: 1.4 on 3.4 (40%)
Larry Johnson: 1 on 2.6 (38.6%)
Penny: 1.1 on 3.2 (31.4%)

But the main thing Shammy posted I want to contend is that Dan Roundfield is somehow better than both Jerry Lucas and Dave DeBusschere. This isn't true.

Dan Roundfield isn't a Hall of Famer. Both Jerry Lucas and Dave DeBusschere are. Dan Roundfield never helped any team win a title and only twice did his teams get into the 2nd round. Both Jerry Lucas and Dave DeBusschere were instrumental contributors on title winning teams. Dan Roundfield isn't on any list of greatest players ever. Both Jerry Lucas and Dave DeBusschere are on numerous lists of the best players ever.

Lucas and DeBusschere were named to the 50 greatest players list in 1996, Roundfield was not.
Lucas was #38 and DeBusschere #76 on Slam's all-time list. Roundfield was #266.
Lucas was #79 and DeBusschere #85 on ESPN's all-time list. Roundfield wasn't on it.

Roundfield made 1 All-NBA team. He made 3 All-Star teams. Lucas made 3 All-NBA 1st teams, 5 All-NBA teams overall and 7 All-Star games. Dave DeBusschere made 1 All-NBA team but was an All-Star 8 times.

Roundfield made 5 All-Def. teams (3 first teams), DeBusschere made 6 All-Def. 1st teams.

Roundfield's career high PER's were 20.7, 19.7 and 19.5. His WS/48 were .169, .164, and .159.
Lucas's career high PER's were 20.9, 20.6 and 20.6. His WS/48 were .188, .187, and .184.

Lucas was simply a more impactful player and DeBusschere was a better defender.


Bottom line, his lineup features 2 defenders (Pippen and Roundfield), mine features 4 (GP, Squid, DeBuss. and Gasol). My bench slaughters his. I have more defense, more shooting, and more balance.

I should win this matchup.

valade16
10-06-2017, 01:10 PM
An interesting fact I found while researching this matchup:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/lucasj_bio.html

The youngest player selected for the 1960 U.S. Olympic Team, the 20-year-old Lucas was originally slated to come off the bench behind future NBA stars Walt Bellamy and Darrall Imhoff. But Lucas emerged as a starter during the tournament and even tied Oscar Robertson for the team scoring lead with 17.0 ppg.

Lucas was originally slated to be a backup behind Bellamy but was so good he became a starter.

I also want to point out for Lucas, the TRB% of 15.3% is for his last 4 seasons when he was obviously in decline. The top season was 1971 at 17.1% which is near equal to Roundfield's 17.3% however that was not even close to Lucas' best year for rebounding and we don't have TRB% for those years but we can assume it would be higher.

His Rebounds per 36 minutes in 1971 were 14.0. His rebounds per 36 minutes in 1966 were 17.1. That would put his TRB% in those years around 20-21%.

Lucas was a better rebounder than Roundfield at his peak, that is unquestionable. And by having Mark Price guard Dave DeBusschere he's ensured DeBusschere can get whatever rebounds he wants, which will certainly negate the rebound advantage Azkaban may have had.

KnicksorBust
10-06-2017, 02:43 PM
Now, I know everyone is thinking: who is Mark Price gonna guard? Well, he'll be guarding Dave DeBusschere predominantly. Why? Well, DeBusschere is somewhat undersized for a SF at only 6'6, and he is by far the least efficient. He has never posted a season with a true shooting percentage above 49.0%. He is only a 69.9% free throw shooter, which is an indicator he wasn't an outside threat; additionally, his free throw rate is less than 30% so he doesn't frequent the charity stripe either. His statistical best season, he only had an 8.8ast%.

So, Dave Debusscher, you want to post-up Price all day long? That's not gonna win. It'll be easy to double an inefficient post-scorer who cannot pass out of the post and has no perimeter game to speak of. So, if Seaside wants to take advantage of this matchup - so be it. Let your most inefficient player try the least efficient offensive play in the game: post-ups. Try it often, see how far it gets you when there are no 3 point threats to worry about on the court.
.

Dave D played PF for my Knicks and you are guarding him with your 6'0 PG? Won't he just demolish your team on the boards? He'll get free points just from offensive rebounds and give his team so many extra possessions. Am I the only one that hates that strategy?

Shammyguy3
10-06-2017, 03:09 PM
Dave D played PF for my Knicks and you are guarding him with your 6'0 PG? Won't he just demolish your team on the boards? He'll get free points just from offensive rebounds and give his team so many extra possessions. Am I the only one that hates that strategy?

He's an undersized PF that will have help boxing him out on the boards. Valade's offense is going to be elbows-in, which means Pippen/Hill/Roundfield/Bellamy will all be able to help on the boards. Just because a player guards another player, doesn't mean he is always the one that will be boxing said player out.

Because of the poor outside shooting, Azkaban can play zone-help defense rather easily to help against DeBusschere in the post (which he doesn't score well and he doesn't pass the ball). And if Squid/Payton/Lucas/Gasol are all in the paint, then so will the entire Azkaban team. And on the whole, Azkaban is bigger, longer, stronger, and more athletic. So, if Seaside tries crashing the boards with multiple bodies in any capacity, that helps jump-start the fast break.

valade16
10-06-2017, 03:23 PM
Charles Barkley was an undersized PF too, didn't really stop him from grabbing rebounds. DeBusschere is a great rebounder and with Mark Price guarding him he'll have free reign to grab boards. Pippen and Hill are going to run to box out DeBussch? Ok, well then who is boxing out GP or Squid (2 very good rebounding guards)?

I also don't know which team you're talking about in regards to poor outside shooting, perhaps your own? My team has 3 quality 3-pt shooters in my starting lineup and plenty of 3pt shooting off the bench.

Shammyguy3
10-06-2017, 03:35 PM
Charles Barkley was an undersized PF too, didn't really stop him from grabbing rebounds. DeBusschere is a great rebounder and with Mark Price guarding him he'll have free reign to grab boards. Pippen and Hill are going to run to box out DeBussch? Ok, well then who is boxing out GP or Squid (2 very good rebounding guards)?

I also don't know which team you're talking about in regards to poor outside shooting, perhaps your own? My team has 3 quality 3-pt shooters in my starting lineup and plenty of 3pt shooting off the bench.

As I keep stating, you can't have all 5 players running at the boards. That totally feeds into my transition offense. Who is gonna get back on defense if all 5 players are crashing the boards?


We've seen smaller wings guard bigger forwards before in today's game for similar reasons. I think it works well here, because DeBusschere isn't a threat to score.


And who are your 3 quality shooters? Your best shooter is your center in Marc Gasol. Then you have a 34% three point shooter in Gary Payton. And after that, who?

If Gary Payton is a quality 3 point shooter, then so is Scottie Pippen. Over their prime, Pippen is a better 3 point threat. From 94-97 Pippen shot 35.7% from deep taking over 4 a game. Payton's four year best stretch from 98-01 he shot 33.7% taking exactly 5 attempts a game.

Then on the bench I have Brandon Roy and Dan Majerle.
2009 Brandon Roy: 22.6ppg - 4.7rpg - 5.1apg - 1.1spg - 2.63 AST/TOV - 37.7% from deep on 4.2 attempts a game - 123 ORtg (6th in '09) - 5.7 VORP (4th in '09) - 5.8 BPM (4th in '09) 24.0 PER (7th in '09 - 57.3ts% - 27.4usg% - 0.223 WS/48 (6th in '09)
1993 Dan Majerle - 16.9ppg - 4.7rpg - 3.8apg - 1.7spg - 2.33 AST/TOV - 38.1% from deep on 5.3 attempts a game - 120 ORtg - 4.9 VORP - 4.0 BPM - 57.3ts% 0.147 WS/48


Then you have only 1 three point threat on your bench in Hawkins.

Neither team has great spacing, but all 5 of my starters are above average passers and are all efficient scorers that love transition basketball. You want to send 5 players towards the boards, that won't last long

Shammyguy3
10-06-2017, 03:37 PM
And if DeBusschere was a scoring threat like Barkley obviously it wouldn't work putting Price on him.


Speaking of DeBusschere - he's an undersized small forward with no speed on the perimeter. That's why he played PF in New York. And you're having him guard one of the most athletic, best speed/power combinations this game has ever seen in Grant Hill?

valade16
10-06-2017, 03:48 PM
I've already stated who my 3 point shooters are:

Jerry Lucas:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/lucasj_bio.html

Lucas tallied 14,053 points (17.0 ppg) and finished with a lofty .499 career field-goal percentage, an impressive statistic considering that many of his points came on rainbow jumpers launched from long distance.

His offensive repertoire included an accurate one-hand push shot that he launched from 20 to 25 feet and that went in with such regularity that one sportswriter dubbed it "the Lucas Layup."

Jerry Lucas could certainly shoot the 3. The article specifically mentions how deadly of a shooter he was out to 25 feet, the 3 point line is 23 feet.

As for my bench, I have more than just Hawkins as a shooter off my bench. Larry Johnson shot 38.6% from 3 in the year I'm using him on 2.6 attempts. Penny Hardaway was a capable 3pt shooter as well.


As for why Scottie Pippen was such a good 3 point shooter from 94-97, it's because they shortened the 3 point line those years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-point_field_goal

Scottie shot 26.9% on 1.2 attempts before the line was shortened
Scottie shot 36.4% on 4.8 attempts while the line was shortened

He wasn't a very good 3 point shooter. Gary Payton from 98-01 was a better 3 point shooter than prime Scottie.

ewing
10-07-2017, 07:37 AM
Dementors in 4. What's Penny doing on the bench?

valade16
10-07-2017, 10:45 AM
Dementors in 4. What's Penny doing on the bench?

We have to start 2 players who haven't played a single game from 1990 or beyond and we have to start a player who hasn't played a single game from 2000 or beyond.

My lineup to end the game will be Payton, Moncrief, Penny, Brand, Gasol.

I don't mind someone saying Dementors will win, but in 4 lol? I can't even win a single game even with homecourt?

GREATNESS ONE
10-07-2017, 11:15 AM
Tie game! 24h left!

Shammyguy3
10-08-2017, 12:43 PM
Ughhhhh

valade16
10-08-2017, 01:31 PM
24 hours for tie breaking votes. If you have not already voted, please post who you think would win in the thread.

Dunkapolooza
10-08-2017, 04:09 PM
I think the combination of defense, quickness, rebounding, three point shooting and scoring depth wins this for the seagulls.

Really don't like the price on debusshere argument. Lucas is the best big man in the series and all seagulls big men shoot. So they can really isolate Dave on price for the boards. To counter that azkaban would have to give up the fast break by crashing. Limits easy buckets against a very stout defense.

But why won't it let me vote on the poll?

mightybosstone
10-08-2017, 05:28 PM
Valade's team. It won't let me vote in the poll, so please count this as my vote.

GREATNESS ONE
10-08-2017, 06:34 PM
WHats the score?

Shammyguy3
10-08-2017, 06:40 PM
WHats the score?

6-4 Seaside

Lakers + Giants
10-08-2017, 06:43 PM
5-4 with MBTs vote.

GREATNESS ONE
10-08-2017, 07:15 PM
5-4 or 6-4?

Lakers + Giants
10-08-2017, 07:38 PM
5-4 or 6-4?

I don't think Dunkapolooza's vote would count cuz he has less than 100 votes. So 5-4 under normal rules. not sure if it changes cuz its a tie breaker.

dhopisthename
10-08-2017, 09:38 PM
I don't think Dunkapolooza's vote would count cuz he has less than 100 votes. So 5-4 under normal rules. not sure if it changes cuz its a tie breaker.

dunks vote will count. the 100 thing was just to make sure people didn't make dupes and then vote for their team.

Lakers + Giants
10-09-2017, 03:30 AM
dunks vote will count. the 100 thing was just to make sure people didn't make dupes and then vote for their team.

Oh the RR rule :laugh2:

:p

Shammyguy3
10-09-2017, 10:07 AM
Azkaban needs some love here guys!

valade16
10-09-2017, 03:03 PM
Congratulations to everyone who played!

Shammyguy3
10-09-2017, 04:02 PM
Darnit, thought i won my first championship this time.. but congrats to Valade!

valade16
10-09-2017, 04:07 PM
Darnit, thought i won my first championship this time.. but congrats to Valade!

You had a great team. Would have been very deserving of the title. It was a close vote.

GREATNESS ONE
10-09-2017, 07:48 PM
Figures! :p

Shammyguy3
10-09-2017, 11:51 PM
Greatness One, why didn't you vote? You were a GM in the game, and posted in the thread. Yet refused to vote?

GREATNESS ONE
10-10-2017, 11:01 AM
Sorry, I use an app for PSD, I have to log into my laptop to vote. Plus I was still bitter about everyone voting in my matchup before debates. So I figured everyone already knows who they want. Which I feel is a popularity contest.

Congrats to you guys in the Finals

Shammyguy3
10-10-2017, 11:14 AM
Sorry, I use an app for PSD, I have to log into my laptop to vote. Plus I was still bitter about everyone voting in my matchup before debates. So I figured everyone already knows who they want. Which I feel is a popularity contest.

Congrats to you guys in the Finals

you can post who you wanted to win, and a mod would add it to the poll....

and that's lame reasoning