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View Full Version : NBA No MVP All-Time Redraft Semi-Finals. Seaside Seagulls vs. Team Dhop



valade16
10-02-2017, 11:58 AM
Members of the PSD Community came together and participated in an All-Time NBA Redraft. They drafted, traded and signed all time players to create the best team possible. This is the 1st Round of the playoffs.

Special stipulations for this game included: No NBA or ABA MVP winners eligible. Each team had to start (and play 24 minutes) 2 players who did not play a single game after 1990. Additionally, each player is judged on the a single season/the best season of their career, as selected by the GM.

Please look at the teams and vote for which team you think would win in a 7 game series.

Seaside Seagulls has home court advantage for the series:

Seaside Seagulls:

PG: Gary Payton (36) | Penny Hardaway (12)
SG: Sidney Moncrief (36) | Hersey Hawkins (8) | Penny Hardaway (4)
SF: Dave DeBusschere (24) | Larry Johnson (8) | Penny Hardaway (16)
PF: Jerry Lucas (24) | Elton Brand (24)
C: Marc Gasol (36) | Andrew Bynum (4) | Elton Brand (8)

vs.

Team Dhop:

PG: Jerry West (36) / Isaiah Thomas (12)
SG: Chett Walker (24) / Mitch Richmond (24) / Byron Scott
SF: Ron Artest (24) / Mitch Richmond (12) / Chet Walker (6) / Tayshaun Prince (6)
PF: Elvin Hayes (36) / Ron Artest (12)
C: Dikembe Mutombo (36) / Rudy Gobert (12)

KnicksorBust
10-02-2017, 04:40 PM
I think Seaside is a nightmare for dhop. Dhop needs West to carry that offense and Payton-Squid are probably the 2 best defensive guards of all-time. I wish SS had a little more spacing but dave d could shoot lucas is okay... hawkins on the bench. Its enough.

My vote is for Valade.

Shammyguy3
10-02-2017, 05:11 PM
I think Seaside is a nightmare for dhop. Dhop needs West to carry that offense and Payton-Squid are probably the 2 best defensive guards of all-time. I wish SS had a little more spacing but dave d could shoot lucas is okay... hawkins on the bench. Its enough.

My vote is for Valade.

I agree with this. I had Dhop and valade both in my top-5, but valade matches up better here

GREATNESS ONE
10-02-2017, 06:03 PM
I hate when a vote is made before debate. It took the fun out of my match up last round. Why debate if you guys know it all and make a choice before debate?

dhopisthename
10-02-2017, 06:07 PM
I think Seaside is a nightmare for dhop. Dhop needs West to carry that offense and Payton-Squid are probably the 2 best defensive guards of all-time. I wish SS had a little more spacing but dave d could shoot lucas is okay... hawkins on the bench. Its enough.

My vote is for Valade.

sure payton and moncrief are tough matchups for west, but west and artest are equally tough matchups for payton and moncrief, not to mention they have to drive into two elite defensive bigs. Jerry west scored 30+ against Clyde Frasier so its not like west is going to be shut down. How does valade score on my team? what matchup can he lean on to get points?

kdspurman
10-03-2017, 11:12 AM
sure payton and moncrief are tough matchups for west, but west and artest are equally tough matchups for payton and moncrief, not to mention they have to drive into two elite defensive bigs. Jerry west scored 30+ against Clyde Frasier so its not like west is going to be shut down. How does valade score on my team? what matchup can he lean on to get points?

Yea, I think it's close honestly. I'm going to wait to hopefully see some back and forth :)

valade16
10-03-2017, 11:46 AM
My points are this:

1. GP and Moncrief will take turns guarding Jerry West and making his life as difficult as possible. Sure, West is a great player and he'll score, but it will be inefficiently. And his second best scorer is Elvin Hayes, who is also an inefficient scorer.

2. Ron Artest on GP or Moncrief? I'm not sure Artest has the speed and quickness to guard them. Not to mention while GP and Moncrief can take breaks on West to preserve energy and bring maximum defensive effort all game, West will have to cover one of them for the entirety of his time on the court.

3. Yes, he has Hayes and Mutombo inside to protect the paint, but he'll have a choice to make there. Gasol shot 39% from 3 this past season and Jerry Lucas was a tremendous outside shooter:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/lucasj_bio.html

Lucas tallied 14,053 points (17.0 ppg) and finished with a lofty .499 career field-goal percentage, an impressive statistic considering that many of his points came on rainbow jumpers launched from long distance.

His offensive repertoire included an accurate one-hand push shot that he launched from 20 to 25 feet and that went in with such regularity that one sportswriter dubbed it "the Lucas Layup."

And here is a video of the TNT All-Time Fantasy Draft they did awhile back where after Charles Barkley picks Jerry Lucas, Kevin McHale says "He could shoot 3's easy" (23:15 mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHbdbj4TRfw


So both of my big men are very good 3 point shooters and that will draw Hayes and Mutombo away from the basket. Do you plan to let my guys shoot 3's all day or guard the rim?

This has a dual effect, especially with my strategy of pushing the pace with Payton, Moncrief, Penny, Larry Johnson, etc. by having Lucas and Gasol be the trail men who spot up from 3.

4. Outside of Hayes his team has no interior scorer. His backup to Mutombo is Gobert, essentially a Mutombo clone who will be equally as neutralized on Gasol and his backup PF is Ron Artest. Is Artest going to be guarding Moncrief and then switch onto Brand?

5. Another place where I will be able to gain an edge is via the backup PG matchup. He has 5'9" Isaiah Thomas against 6'7" Penny Hardaway. Penny was one of the best post up guards in history, and he'd feast there.


I think because of my team's ability to push the pace, tag team his best player and negate his rim protectors, my team is the superior matchup here.

Congrats to Dhop on making another great team (he always seems to make good teams in these).

dhopisthename
10-03-2017, 02:36 PM
My points are this:

1. GP and Moncrief will take turns guarding Jerry West and making his life as difficult as possible. Sure, West is a great player and he'll score, but it will be inefficiently. And his second best scorer is Elvin Hayes, who is also an inefficient scorer.

2. Ron Artest on GP or Moncrief? I'm not sure Artest has the speed and quickness to guard them. Not to mention while GP and Moncrief can take breaks on West to preserve energy and bring maximum defensive effort all game, West will have to cover one of them for the entirety of his time on the court.

3. Yes, he has Hayes and Mutombo inside to protect the paint, but he'll have a choice to make there. Gasol shot 39% from 3 this past season and Jerry Lucas was a tremendous outside shooter:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/lucasj_bio.html

Lucas tallied 14,053 points (17.0 ppg) and finished with a lofty .499 career field-goal percentage, an impressive statistic considering that many of his points came on rainbow jumpers launched from long distance.

His offensive repertoire included an accurate one-hand push shot that he launched from 20 to 25 feet and that went in with such regularity that one sportswriter dubbed it "the Lucas Layup."

And here is a video of the TNT All-Time Fantasy Draft they did awhile back where after Charles Barkley picks Jerry Lucas, Kevin McHale says "He could shoot 3's easy" (23:15 mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHbdbj4TRfw


So both of my big men are very good 3 point shooters and that will draw Hayes and Mutombo away from the basket. Do you plan to let my guys shoot 3's all day or guard the rim?

This has a dual effect, especially with my strategy of pushing the pace with Payton, Moncrief, Penny, Larry Johnson, etc. by having Lucas and Gasol be the trail men who spot up from 3.

4. Outside of Hayes his team has no interior scorer. His backup to Mutombo is Gobert, essentially a Mutombo clone who will be equally as neutralized on Gasol and his backup PF is Ron Artest. Is Artest going to be guarding Moncrief and then switch onto Brand?

5. Another place where I will be able to gain an edge is via the backup PG matchup. He has 5'9" Isaiah Thomas against 6'7" Penny Hardaway. Penny was one of the best post up guards in history, and he'd feast there.


I think because of my team's ability to push the pace, tag team his best player and negate his rim protectors, my team is the superior matchup here.

Congrats to Dhop on making another great team (he always seems to make good teams in these).

1. I don't see why west would be reduced or inefficient. in 69-70 against one the best pg defenders ever in walt frazier jerry west scored 42-28-41-40-17-38 against him or a 34 ppg average and he held frazier to 19-12-26-26-19-3.

1b. hayes in 74-75 had a 49.6 ts% when the league average was 50.2. so he was a little below average. Gary Payton was 53.5ts% when the league average was 52.3. so sure Hayes wasn't efficient, but honestly Payton wasn't much better and he is your #1 guy.

2. how can they preserve energy when they have cover chett walker (22 ppg 58%ts) or Mitch Richmond (26ppg)? people keep talking about my team as if I only have one person who can score. When really I just have an elite scorer and valades team doesn't.

west 31.2 ppg>payton 24.2
Chett 22=moncriefs 22.5(its even if you consider Moncrief played more MPG)
artest18.3>Debusschere16.3
Hayes 23 ppg>Lucas 21.5
Mutombo 11.6<Gasol19.5

I lead 3/5 and I have just as much defense as he does especially when you consider that he didn't chose Gasol's DPOY year. I also have two elite scorers on my bench in Isaiah Thomas and Mitch Richmond and I can hide richmond on Debusschere.

3. They will draw my bigs out no doubt, but with two good rim protecting bigs I can almost surely have one near the rim at most times and have the wing defense to make up for it if not.

4. not sure what this post is for. yes artest will be playing some PF and considering he is as tall as brand I am ok with it. will also have 6-11 Prince play some PF as well against the right matchup. Also Mutumbo and especially Gobert are hyper efficient bigs who can Thrive in a pick and roll and utilize their size against Brand to get some offensive rebounds and considering how poor of a rebounder Gasol is they can exploit that matchup as well.

5. I would probably play west closer to 40 minutes a game meaning that thomas only has to play about 8 minutes. Thomas gives up a ton of size sure, but I don't think penny can guard Thomas either and would you rather have 29 ppg on 62.5 ts% or 21.9 ppg on 60.5 ts%. if this doesn't work I can Bring in Byron scott, while not a tradition PG can certainly do it for 8 minutes.

valade16
10-03-2017, 04:15 PM
1. I don't see why west would be reduced or inefficient. in 69-70 against one the best pg defenders ever in walt frazier jerry west scored 42-28-41-40-17-38 against him or a 34 ppg average and he held frazier to 19-12-26-26-19-3.

1b. hayes in 74-75 had a 49.6 ts% when the league average was 50.2. so he was a little below average. Gary Payton was 53.5ts% when the league average was 52.3. so sure Hayes wasn't efficient, but honestly Payton wasn't much better and he is your #1 guy.

2. how can they preserve energy when they have cover chett walker (22 ppg 58%ts) or Mitch Richmond (26ppg)? people keep talking about my team as if I only have one person who can score. When really I just have an elite scorer and valades team doesn't.

west 31.2 ppg>payton 24.2
Chett 22=moncriefs 22.5(its even if you consider Moncrief played more MPG)
artest18.3>Debusschere16.3
Hayes 23 ppg>Lucas 21.5
Mutombo 11.6<Gasol19.5

I lead 3/5 and I have just as much defense as he does especially when you consider that he didn't chose Gasol's DPOY year. I also have two elite scorers on my bench in Isaiah Thomas and Mitch Richmond and I can hide richmond on Debusschere.

3. They will draw my bigs out no doubt, but with two good rim protecting bigs I can almost surely have one near the rim at most times and have the wing defense to make up for it if not.

4. not sure what this post is for. yes artest will be playing some PF and considering he is as tall as brand I am ok with it. will also have 6-11 Prince play some PF as well against the right matchup. Also Mutumbo and especially Gobert are hyper efficient bigs who can Thrive in a pick and roll and utilize their size against Brand to get some offensive rebounds and considering how poor of a rebounder Gasol is they can exploit that matchup as well.

5. I would probably play west closer to 40 minutes a game meaning that thomas only has to play about 8 minutes. Thomas gives up a ton of size sure, but I don't think penny can guard Thomas either and would you rather have 29 ppg on 62.5 ts% or 21.9 ppg on 60.5 ts%. if this doesn't work I can Bring in Byron scott, while not a tradition PG can certainly do it for 8 minutes.

1. Walt Frazier is a very good defender for sure, but Gary Payton is perhaps the best perimeter defender of all-time. If we're going to use proxy matchups, lets not forget that Gary Payton held Michael Jordan to 41.5% FG and a 53.8 TS% during their Finals matchup.

2. The idea that I don't have any offense couldn't be further from the truth. The years I used for both Gary Payton and Sidney Moncrief they led the entire league in OBPM.

Additionally, if you add up all the PPG you listed above your starters are at 106.1, mine are at 104. So just because mine is more spread out doesn't mean my unit's output is significantly less. My starters have the same capacity to score at the same volume as yours.

I also want to say putting Richmond on DeBusschere seems like a bad idea. DeBusschere is used to banging with the bigs and is very physical, I'm not sure Richmond could handle that physicality.

I'd also contend that Isaiah wouldn't be nearly as effective as his regular season stats portray as he is less efficient in the playoffs and just last year he averaged 23.2 PPG on 56.3 TS%.


As an aside, I'm just glad there's actually some back and forth, might be a first this game lol

mightybosstone
10-03-2017, 06:02 PM
I like Valade's squad here in 6.

I'm not in love with dhop's offense. Regardless of what you think about West as a perimeter shooter (and no, I don't want to start that conversation again), that team has some spacing issues. I also think West is simply his only real stud offensive performer. Mutombo is a liability on that end, Artest is more of a No. 3 guy, and I've always felt like Hayes is one of the most overrated offensive players in the history of the game because of how inefficient he was—even for his era.

Valade's team is hardly elite offensively in this game, but Gasol at the 5 gives him an excellent floor spacer in the front court, and there's enough quality pieces, playmakers and passers offensively for me to get behind that starting 5 offensively. Combine that with the Payton/Moncrief duo guarding West, and I just don't think dhop's team will keep up with valade's squad over a 7-game series. Also, the idea of Isaiah Thomas trying to guard Penny or Payton for 12 minutes a game, I've got to think that's a huge advantage for valade whenever West goes to the bench.

dhopisthename
10-03-2017, 06:30 PM
1. Walt Frazier is a very good defender for sure, but Gary Payton is perhaps the best perimeter defender of all-time. If we're going to use proxy matchups, lets not forget that Gary Payton held Michael Jordan to 41.5% FG and a 53.8 TS% during their Finals matchup.

2. The idea that I don't have any offense couldn't be further from the truth. The years I used for both Gary Payton and Sidney Moncrief they led the entire league in OBPM.

Additionally, if you add up all the PPG you listed above your starters are at 106.1, mine are at 104. So just because mine is more spread out doesn't mean my unit's output is significantly less. My starters have the same capacity to score at the same volume as yours.

I also want to say putting Richmond on DeBusschere seems like a bad idea. DeBusschere is used to banging with the bigs and is very physical, I'm not sure Richmond could handle that physicality.

I'd also contend that Isaiah wouldn't be nearly as effective as his regular season stats portray as he is less efficient in the playoffs and just last year he averaged 23.2 PPG on 56.3 TS%.


As an aside, I'm just glad there's actually some back and forth, might be a first this game lol

1. never said he couldn't guard him, but lets be honest if I had wade I would hear things like well wade will still going get his but it will be tough. However since its West he doesn't get half the love and I doubt anyone outside theses games know he was all nba defender. The guy only averaged 40ppg one playoffs something Kareem and Wilt never did so its not just a oldie thing.

2. never meant that you didn't have any offense, but all I have heard about my team is that if you slow down west I can't score. case in point.

I think Seaside is a nightmare for dhop. Dhop needs West to carry that offense
first post, but no one ever talks about all my defenders slowing down you offense just west can't score so that team can't score.

Debusschere had a ts% of 48% I really doubt you ever feature him on your team. that's substandard even for the era.

to be fair Isaiah was hurt in the playoffs and I do agree he is the weakest part of my team.

I just feel bummed that because my first picks were 60's guys no one takes them as serious threats. Things West has done,lead the league in PER, Win shares, Offensive Win shares, Ts%, PPG, APG, and a Finals MVP. there isn't a single other non mvp that can get close to that. I guess lesson learned, even without mvps no reason to take 60's guys that aren't karrem. Was hoping this game would be different. west will be on my no reason to draft list.

dhopisthename
10-03-2017, 06:31 PM
I like Valade's squad here in 6.

I'm not in love with dhop's offense. Regardless of what you think about West as a perimeter shooter (and no, I don't want to start that conversation again), that team has some spacing issues. I also think West is simply his only real stud offensive performer. Mutombo is a liability on that end, Artest is more of a No. 3 guy, and I've always felt like Hayes is one of the most overrated offensive players in the history of the game because of how inefficient he was—even for his era.

Valade's team is hardly elite offensively in this game, but Gasol at the 5 gives him an excellent floor spacer in the front court, and there's enough quality pieces, playmakers and passers offensively for me to get behind that starting 5 offensively. Combine that with the Payton/Moncrief duo guarding West, and I just don't think dhop's team will keep up with valade's squad over a 7-game series. Also, the idea of Isaiah Thomas trying to guard Penny or Payton for 12 minutes a game, I've got to think that's a huge advantage for valade whenever West goes to the bench.

confirmed doesn't read writeups

mightybosstone
10-03-2017, 06:46 PM
confirmed doesn't read writeups

No. I read it. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Your Payton vs. Hayes argument doesn't work for me. Payton was a PG. Hayes was a PF. I expect my big men to be more efficient than my guards. I'm crazy that way. Also, I don't buy for a second that Penny would have as tough a time guarding Isaiah as Isaiah would Penny or that Artest would hold his own in the paint against Brand. I'd be OK with Prince getting a few minutes at the 4 against Brand. Not Artest.

Also, all of your premiere offensive weapons outside of Richmond were elite in the 60s and 70s. I'm not saying that should be a huge knock on you, but it doesn't do you any favors either. I give a little more weight to offensive production post 1980 against tougher competition and in a league with a 3-point shot. I think it would have helped you to have more offensive threats who are a little more recent.

dhopisthename
10-03-2017, 07:17 PM
No. I read it. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Your Payton vs. Hayes argument doesn't work for me. Payton was a PG. Hayes was a PF. I expect my big men to be more efficient than my guards. I'm crazy that way. Also, I don't buy for a second that Penny would have as tough a time guarding Isaiah as Isaiah would Penny or that Artest would hold his own in the paint against Brand. I'd be OK with Prince getting a few minutes at the 4 against Brand. Not Artest.

Also, all of your premiere offensive weapons outside of Richmond were elite in the 60s and 70s. I'm not saying that should be a huge knock on you, but it doesn't do you any favors either. I give a little more weight to offensive production post 1980 against tougher competition and in a league with a 3-point shot. I think it would have helped you to have more offensive threats who are a little more recent.

the efficiency thing is obviously your opinion, but I thinks its pretty fair since its ts% and payton played in a time with a 3pt line. As for the second point thats obviously your opinion and I think its the reason this game is dead. people come in thinking we are going to be talking about all these 60's players, but they quickly realize that even though every publication has west as a top 15 player of all time he is a borderline top 30 guy just because he played in the 60's.

mightybosstone
10-04-2017, 08:53 AM
the efficiency thing is obviously your opinion, but I thinks its pretty fair since its ts% and payton played in a time with a 3pt line.
Meh. Not really. Bigs are typically nore efficient than guards. That's just common sense.


As for the second point thats obviously your opinion and I think its the reason this game is dead. people come in thinking we are going to be talking about all these 60's players, but they quickly realize that even though every publication has west as a top 15 player of all time he is a borderline top 30 guy just because he played in the 60's.

Lol. Jesus man, chill out. I definitely factored in West when I voted. The dude is probably the second best player in this game behind Wade, and I've always held him in high regard. It's the fact that valade has two of the five greatest defenders of all-time in his back court to counter West, and I'm underwhelmed by the rest of your offense.

I've simply never been a fan of Hayes, Walker is an underwhelming starter playing slightly out of postion at the 2, and your two defensive specialists in Artest and Deke aren't exactly offensive studs.

It's nothing personal. I just like the way valade's team matches up against your squad and prefer his team overall (which is why I rated him higher). Don't single me out as the sole reason for the death of the game just because I didn't vote for you and you're losing.

KnicksorBust
10-04-2017, 11:42 AM
sure payton and moncrief are tough matchups for west

Right dhop but it's not just that they are "tough." IMO they are literally the toughest possible match-up of all-time. I would be on board with putting them #1 and #2 best perimeter defenders in NBA History. With an offensive liability like Mutombo and a mediocre offensive options like Chet and Artest you will need to lean heavily on West. You need him to get his 30ppg. That's why Seaside's backcourt almost seems like it is constructed entirely to beat you. They can throw a fresh Payton or Squid on West every minute of the game.


but west and artest are equally tough matchups for payton and moncrief,

Again I agree BUT now you are trying to convince me that West is still going to be your #1 star and he's going to be exerting max effort on defense. That's a tough pill to swallow. You aren't even resting him on defense.


not to mention they have to drive into two elite defensive bigs.

Totally agree with this. Hayes is underrated defensively and Mutombo is one of the greatest shot blockers in NBA History.


Jerry west scored 30+ against Clyde Frasier so its not like west is going to be shut down.

I'm never really sold on these arguments. "Because my player was great against good player X he will be good against your player." Besides it's not like it's even JUST Payton or Moncrief. He has both to rotate. It's hardly the same as him outplaying Frazier/Monroe.


How does valade score on my team? what matchup can he lean on to get points?

To me this is your most compelling argument. "Yeah yeah I know West will have a tough time but who is your offensive equal?"

I wouldn't have even gone too deeply in West vs. Payton/Squid because that is an argument you can't win. Put the spotlight on his offense.

KnicksorBust
10-04-2017, 11:46 AM
2. The idea that I don't have any offense couldn't be further from the truth. The years I used for both Gary Payton and Sidney Moncrief they led the entire league in OBPM.

Additionally, if you add up all the PPG you listed above your starters are at 106.1, mine are at 104. So just because mine is more spread out doesn't mean my unit's output is significantly less. My starters have the same capacity to score at the same volume as yours.
l

To me this is the clincher. SS has the balance. Every starter + Penny off the bench has the potential for a 20-30 point game. He can afford an off-game and still hit the magic 100. If West lands in the teens, dhop's offense is sunk. The balance wins out over the offensive star power in this case.

dhopisthename
10-04-2017, 01:07 PM
Right dhop but it's not just that they are "tough." IMO they are literally the toughest possible match-up of all-time. I would be on board with putting them #1 and #2 best perimeter defenders in NBA History. With an offensive liability like Mutombo and a mediocre offensive options like Chet and Artest you will need to lean heavily on West. You need him to get his 30ppg. That's why Seaside's backcourt almost seems like it is constructed entirely to beat you. They can throw a fresh Payton or Squid on West every minute of the game.

Artest is my 4th option. a guy who can stretch the D a little and if they ever put someone smaller on him just crush him in the post. why is chett a mediocre offensive option? 22 ppg on a 58.3 ts%. why is mutumbo a offensive liability with a 58.4 ts%, but dave Debusschere with a 48.3 ts% isn't? I think the guy who can be more efficient with less touches would be a lower liability. you don't need 5 offensive options when you have an elite one like west.



Again I agree BUT now you are trying to convince me that West is still going to be your #1 star and he's going to be exerting max effort on defense. That's a tough pill to swallow. You aren't even resting him on defense.


I still don't get this whole fresh crap when they are lined up against all stars. if they relax on defense they will get crushed. I don't have bruce bowen back there where they can literally do nothing. against chett walker, mitch richmond, and even ron artest they will have to defend for every minute they are out there.



Totally agree with this. Hayes is underrated defensively and Mutombo is one of the greatest shot blockers in NBA History.


I'm never really sold on these arguments. "Because my player was great against good player X he will be good against your player." Besides it's not like it's even JUST Payton or Moncrief. He has both to rotate. It's hardly the same as him outplaying Frazier/Monroe.


because I keep hearing that west is going to turn into allen iverson back there because of these two guys. Also what pg do can I use to show that stars will score regardless of who is on them? I mean I think valade mentioned Jordan and Jordan scored 35,45, 32, 26, 40, 28, 29, 36, 23, 26, 22 from 96-98 on him, but I don't think anyone would consider that useful because no one would consider west as good as Jordan. Although the last two years of jordan on the bulls would be somewhat close.


To me this is your most compelling argument. "Yeah yeah I know West will have a tough time but who is your offensive equal?"

I wouldn't have even gone too deeply in West vs. Payton/Squid because that is an argument you can't win. Put the spotlight on his offense.

I have tried to and have shown that I have a tremendous defense as well, but no one takes chett walker or elvin hayes seriously because they are 60's guys.

dhopisthename
10-04-2017, 01:18 PM
To me this is the clincher. SS has the balance. Every starter + Penny off the bench has the potential for a 20-30 point game. He can afford an off-game and still hit the magic 100. If West lands in the teens, dhop's offense is sunk. The balance wins out over the offensive star power in this case.

but I am still higher, have at least an equal better bench scorer in mitch, and have the elite option in west. so basically I am worse because I have mutumbo scoring 13 points a game with a 58.4 ts%, but dave Debusschere scored 16 with 48.3 ts%. ok then

valade16
10-04-2017, 01:29 PM
because I keep hearing that west is going to turn into allen iverson back there because of these two guys. Also what pg do can I use to show that stars will score regardless of who is on them? I mean I think valade mentioned Jordan and Jordan scored 35,45, 32, 26, 40, 28, 29, 36, 23, 26, 22 from 96-98 on him, but I don't think anyone would consider that useful because no one would consider west as good as Jordan. Although the last two years of jordan on the bulls would be somewhat close.

But that goes back to my point. Yes, MJ averaged 31 PPG in those games against Payton and the Sonics, but he also shot 117/256 from the field (45.7%) when his FG% during that period was 48.2%).

So Payton decreased his efficiency. Which was my point. Not to mention he scored less than 30 PPG 6/11 times, which is just over half the games, which is all I'd need to do to West to win the series.

dhopisthename
10-04-2017, 01:49 PM
Meh. Not really. Bigs are typically nore efficient than guards. That's just common sense.



Lol. Jesus man, chill out. I definitely factored in West when I voted. The dude is probably the second best player in this game behind Wade, and I've always held him in high regard. It's the fact that valade has two of the five greatest defenders of all-time in his back court to counter West, and I'm underwhelmed by the rest of your offense.

I've simply never been a fan of Hayes, Walker is an underwhelming starter playing slightly out of postion at the 2, and your two defensive specialists in Artest and Deke aren't exactly offensive studs.

It's nothing personal. I just like the way valade's team matches up against your squad and prefer his team overall (which is why I rated him higher). Don't single me out as the sole reason for the death of the game just because I didn't vote for you and you're losing.

I think its safe to say I have lost so lets have a real discussion on player evaluation for these games.

would you take Marc Gasol over Hayes?
Hayes not efficient. Gasol efficient. Gasol 19.5 ppg can shoot 3's. hayes 23 ppg no 3's. Hayes much better rebounder, but does it even matter? does anyone one care that gasol was 42nd in defensive plus minus for centers last year(I don't think he was this bad, but he was way worse last year compared to his dpoy years when he was #1) and hayes was #1 in defensive plus minus. Hayes won a championship and Gasol has never won a game in a conference finals. this doesn't even begin to quantify the name value difference which is huge.

Then chett walker as an underwhelming option as a starter especially when its a one year prime and I get a guy who put up 22 PPG 6.1 RPG 2.3 APG .583 TS% 14.5 win shares, 3rd in the league btw. don't get me wrong I would start mitch if I could, but we are talking about a guy who has made the hall of fame.

dhopisthename
10-04-2017, 02:28 PM
But that goes back to my point. Yes, MJ averaged 31 PPG in those games against Payton and the Sonics, but he also shot 117/256 from the field (45.7%) when his FG% during that period was 48.2%).

So Payton decreased his efficiency. Which was my point. Not to mention he scored less than 30 PPG 6/11 times, which is just over half the games, which is all I'd need to do to West to win the series.

again this is me admitting that I have most certainly lost. I should admit I hate head to head stats because it so rarely tells the whole story. Someone could have played at 50%, the refs could have let to many foul calls go, 10 games is a horrible sample size. For instance the knicks held him jordan 44% in his series and I don't think anyone is going to call starks a god tier defender. Maybe I just have to high of an opinion on west, but even against your defense i expect him to average 30 and be the best player on the court by a large margin. Don't forget west had to share the ball with wilt and Baylor.

sidenote: i do think that moncrief should be a high 2nd in most games(aka first this one) and you getting him in the 2nd in this game is reason you are probably going to win this game. I think I would take him over half the people picked in the 1st round.

mightybosstone
10-04-2017, 04:02 PM
I think its safe to say I have lost so lets have a real discussion on player evaluation for these games.

would you take Marc Gasol over Hayes?
Hayes not efficient. Gasol efficient. Gasol 19.5 ppg can shoot 3's. hayes 23 ppg no 3's. Hayes much better rebounder, but does it even matter? does anyone one care that gasol was 42nd in defensive plus minus for centers last year(I don't think he was this bad, but he was way worse last year compared to his dpoy years when he was #1) and hayes was #1 in defensive plus minus. Hayes won a championship and Gasol has never won a game in a conference finals. this doesn't even begin to quantify the name value difference which is huge.
It's a fair question. In an all-time discussion, I don't think anyone (myself included) would say Gasol has had the better career or was necessarily the better player than Hayes. And I think, in the right lineup, Hayes could fit like a glove and would be a better asset than Gasol. But if PSD re-draft games have taught me anything over the years, it's that if a guy has a hole in his game, people will find it and cling to it, regardless of how good the rest of his game is/was.

Hayes' inefficiency sticks out like a sore thumb to me. Whereas Gasol has no real discernible weaknesses aside from some slightly below average rebounding. He's an excellent defender and passer, and his 3-point shooting is an extremely rare skill from a 5 in this game. So while I would say that Hayes is unquestionably the better player career-wise, Gasol's jack of all trades skillset might be more valuable for the purposes of a PSD game. And, yes, it does help that I've actually seen Gasol play basketball a lot, but I've only seen a few Hayes highlights over the years. You can't ignore that eye test factor that guys who played pre-90s don't really benefit from.


Then chett walker as an underwhelming option as a starter especially when its a one year prime and I get a guy who put up 22 PPG 6.1 RPG 2.3 APG .583 TS% 14.5 win shares, 3rd in the league btw. don't get me wrong I would start mitch if I could, but we are talking about a guy who has made the hall of fame.
A guy who made it to the Hall of Fame who I've only vaguely heard of and probably never would have heard of if I hadn't played in PSD games before. I realize name value shouldn't mean everything in these games. But if I'm measuring two teams and it comes down to a couple of matchups at positions where I know guys on one team versus the other, I'm going to go with the team whose players I actually know assuming the numbers are relatively close.

And everybody throws out numbers, but in an all-time re-draft, EVERYBODY has stacked teams with guys who put up great numbers. So much of these votes come down to "OK, everybody is stacked. But how can I envision those guys playing together, which teams have holes and how can the opposing teams exploit those holes?"

Dunkapolooza
10-04-2017, 11:38 PM
Dhop has a very rough match up here.

Rebounding, Hayes, Gobert, and Mutombo can be pulled out by Seagull’s shooting all the way through his lineup. Except Bynum who plays 4 minutes. Artest is going to be abused on the boards if he guards anyone on Seagull’s team who is bigger or the same size as him. Dave, Lucas, Larry, or Brand. Chett too if he wants to “hide him on Dave.” So yeah Dhop has the best rebounders, but I think Seagulls can do more to win the rebound battle.


Defensively Dhop’s best offensive player has to guard the number one offensive option for the seagull’s if its Gary, Penny, or Moncrief initiating. No defensive perimeter guards outside of west really limits Dhop having the best scorer in the match up.


Scoring… Having the best scorer is awesome. Not when he must be your primary defender. Especially the primary defender on an island because Seagull’s can space 1-5 pretty much all game. And especially not so when you have four of the six worst offensive players to help when west needs a breather. That’s a lot of pressure on Mitch or Chett. There’s almost no pressure for anyone to score on Seagull’s team since he’s got so many guys who can fill it up efficiently on any given night.


Hayes is not a number 2 option on offense. Hayes scoring under league average efg% only worked because the bullets roughed up the game so much the games they played in were under league average efg%. In a league like this, with so much firepower everywhere, it’s not going to be as easy to muck up the game enough; where below 60s/70s offensive efg% becomes a winning formula.


High volume or not, that % is simply too low to carry an offense where even guys like Brand, Larry Johnson, and Penny can score at a better rate than that, at high volumes, in even mucked up games. All of them would be equal if not better second scoring options in my opinion. Doesn’t mean Hayes is worthless, he’s still a great rebounder, defender, clean up guy, and he’s comfortable taking any shot if the offense gets disrupted. He’s just not a believable second option.


The same is true of Artest’s offense, who could never match those guys offensively anyway. And physically Artest is going to get bullied around for a change. He’ll be facing vastly superior rebounders all day or guards that are too quick for him. Oh and here comes Larry Johnson and Brand. Artest is not going to stop those guys from posting up consistently. There are a lot players Artest can bully, not buying Larry Johnson or Elton Brand. That’s a dream. Seagulls have a wingless team vs a team with an elite wing defender. Which regulates him to an overmatched rebounder, and below actual nba league average offensive efg%. Not good.


Other way around there is nobody that is a tough cover for Seagulls. For hayes he’s got quick big guys three deep (dave Debusshere, Lucas, and Larry Johnson). Big tall guys to bang with Dhop’s (gasol and Bynum). Two of the best guard defenders ever for chet and jerry. Equal athletes to match chett the jet in penny and hersey Hawkins.

Overall I just see too much talent for the seagulls. One year peak? Larry, Penny, and Brand coming off the bench? All of those guys are match up nightmares physically who were very efficient high volume scorers. West, Chett, Richmond, and Hayes vs Payton, Squid, Penny, Larry, Brand, and Lucas? Seagulls just have too many guys who can take over a game offensively.

Dunkapolooza
10-04-2017, 11:40 PM
Didn't a hayes team just win this with Hayes and Ben Wallace? Dhop has a similar team. That larry team went up against teams with few good defenders against Larry. That aint the case with West here.