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mrblisterdundee
09-30-2017, 10:57 AM
After a recent board of governor's meeting, NBA commissioner said that NBA players are expected to stand during the national anthem:

“It's been a rule as long as I've been involved with the league, and my expectation is that our players will continue to stand for the anthem,” Silver said.
Asked if there would be a penalty if a player or team were to violate that rule, Silver said: “All I can say is if that were to happen, we’ll deal with it when it happens.”
- Steve Aschburner, NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/article/2017/09/28/nba-commissioner-adam-silver-expects-players-stand-during-anthem#/)

ewing
09-30-2017, 11:41 AM
they should have cancelled it

Chronz
09-30-2017, 11:46 AM
they should have cancelled it
Lol. Imagine if the NFL did that and the players end up just digging their own grave. How much money you reckon it takes to lose before you go back to doing your job?

tredigs
09-30-2017, 11:58 AM
Smart to get ahead of the issue and also to let them know that a press conference/dialogue before their first home game to address the issues at hand is what they recommend if the teams choose to take a political stance. We don't need Trump/The Russians/BLM, etc getting in the middle of everything.

mike_noodles
09-30-2017, 12:21 PM
This was addressed in the Chris Jackson days. He didn't want to participate, so he prayed during the anthem. I feel like telling them they can't is asking for trouble though.

IndyRealist
09-30-2017, 02:08 PM
This has come up before with Muslim players. There's already precedent.

nastynice
09-30-2017, 03:08 PM
Yea, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. The ahk been representing since back in the day. Haha, he cool as hell, he can still ball

Honestly, I think nba players should get involved. This whole kaepernick kneeling, then trump calling out players and owners, then them responding. The indgredients are ripe, they got a chance to make a change here and maybe change the way our system views black America. Something's gotta change, what better opportunity.

Cuz take our tax money we worked for all year to help make billionaires richer, no biggie. But I'll be damned if you take our sports away from us

Vinylman
09-30-2017, 03:16 PM
Yea, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. The ahk been representing since back in the day. Haha, he cool as hell, he can still ball

Honestly, I think nba players should get involved. This whole kaepernick kneeling, then trump calling out players and owners, then them responding. The indgredients are ripe, they got a chance to make a change here and maybe change the way our system views black America. Something's gotta change, what better opportunity.

Cuz take our tax money we worked for all year to help make billionaires richer, no biggie. But I'll be damned if you take our sports away from us

yeah yeah yeah!!!!

wait what?

Yeah yeah yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Raps08-09 Champ
09-30-2017, 03:28 PM
Both teams should have players interlock arms if they can't kneel as a sign of unity and protest.

Big Zo
09-30-2017, 03:38 PM
Does it say which we they need to stand? If not, they can just stand with their backs turned to the court.

mikekhelxD
09-30-2017, 08:27 PM
Does it say which we they need to stand? If not, they can just stand with their backs turned to the court.

I dont think so. But turning their backs on the court will likely go to a narrative that they're turning their back to the country blah blah. What if a player shows up to the game with those sandals that have a flag on it? Will he be grilled for stepping on the flag?

C-ross12
09-30-2017, 08:44 PM
Adam Silver continues to show why hes the best commissioner in sports. You can agree or disagree with kneeling for the Anthem, but it will hit the bottom line, so hes getting ahead of it.

ewing
09-30-2017, 09:18 PM
Yea, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. The ahk been representing since back in the day. Haha, he cool as hell, he can still ball

Honestly, I think nba players should get involved. This whole kaepernick kneeling, then trump calling out players and owners, then them responding. The indgredients are ripe, they got a chance to make a change here and maybe change the way our system views black America. Something's gotta change, what better opportunity.

Cuz take our tax money we worked for all year to help make billionaires richer, no biggie. But I'll be damned if you take our sports away from us

I know you are being sarcastic but this is how I actually feel.

nastynice
09-30-2017, 10:51 PM
way to take the wing out my sails

...on the closing line too

TheMightyHumph
09-30-2017, 11:21 PM
Does it say which we they need to stand? If not, they can just stand with their backs turned to the court.

That's my thought also.

Off course, if that happens, Silver may just turn the players shower, into gas ovens, as was done to his family and their friends when they were they were the oppressed

Saddletramp
10-01-2017, 03:36 AM
The Rockets and Knicks interlocked arms last year (maybe others did as well). Maybe this can be their "kneeling"?





That's my thought also.

Off course, if that happens, Silver may just turn the players shower, into gas ovens, as was done to his family and their friends when they were they were the oppressed

Way to say something really ****ing stupid.

Jamiecballer
10-01-2017, 09:02 AM
I think silver has been a fabulous commissioner but I don't like his decision here.

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mike_noodles
10-01-2017, 09:57 AM
What if a superstar kneels? Then what? You gonna suspend them all? What if Lebron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, etc all decide to take a knee. In a superstar driven league, I feel like Silver doesn't have as much power over this as he thinks he does.

And I also feel like this protest is finally really starting to get somewhere. I really hope the athletes don't give up. Stay unified. Don't let them divide and conquer.

One last thought; it would go a long way if the NHL would do something. Being the whitest sport of the big 4. Problem is, such a high percentage aren't American, maybe they feel they don't have a dog in this fight.

tredigs
10-01-2017, 10:52 AM
What if a superstar kneels? Then what? You gonna suspend them all? What if Lebron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, etc all decide to take a knee. In a superstar driven league, I feel like Silver doesn't have as much power over this as he thinks he does.

And I also feel like this protest is finally really starting to get somewhere. I really hope the athletes don't give up. Stay unified. Don't let them divide and conquer.

One last thought; it would go a long way if the NHL would do something. Being the whitest sport of the big 4. Problem is, such a high percentage aren't American, maybe they feel they don't have a dog in this fight.

"Really starting to get somewhere". Where is that, exactly? More ambiguous articles/segments on ESPN/CNN etc about the ambiguous cause? "Stay unified". Now that's the real joke. I can't think of a more divisive act. Literally splits the nation 50/50. Exactly what Trump wanted

Vinylman
10-01-2017, 12:26 PM
What if a superstar kneels? Then what? You gonna suspend them all? What if Lebron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, etc all decide to take a knee. In a superstar driven league, I feel like Silver doesn't have as much power over this as he thinks he does.

And I also feel like this protest is finally really starting to get somewhere. I really hope the athletes don't give up. Stay unified. Don't let them divide and conquer.

One last thought; it would go a long way if the NHL would do something. Being the whitest sport of the big 4. Problem is, such a high percentage aren't American, maybe they feel they don't have a dog in this fight.

LMFAO

the sheep being herded into camps... well done left and right

mike_noodles
10-01-2017, 01:26 PM
"Really starting to get somewhere". Where is that, exactly? More ambiguous articles/segments on ESPN/CNN etc about the ambiguous cause? "Stay unified". Now that's the real joke. I can't think of a more divisive act. Literally splits the nation 50/50. Exactly what Trump wanted

Disagree. More people are talking about it than ever before. More people are participating than ever before. When the opposition of your protest start screaming louder, you are making headway. Of course it's going to be ugly for times, that's the nature of it. It's part of the process. Keep in mind, I'm an outsider looking in. I'm a Caucasian Canadian. And I can't tell you how proud I am of the players who stand up for racial equality.

It will hopefully (obviously) get to the point where people are so pissed off about it that they stop blaming the people that are protesting and actually work to address the issues.

mike_noodles
10-01-2017, 01:32 PM
LMFAO

the sheep being herded into camps... well done left and right

I honestly don't even know what you're saying. You don't think the protest is gaining steam? You don't think it's being talked about more? I would agree that the chatter isn't always want you'd like, but people are talking.

tredigs
10-01-2017, 01:39 PM
Talking yes, but about what, exactly? If we are going to have a racial debate in this country and we were being real it would be about the disgusting amount of black father's that do not raise their own children (a massive divide between them and all other races). Shaming them into taking authority of their lives would be the most important step for young black children in this country to actually have a fair shake at things in this life. That's what this nation needs to have the balls to speak up on and loudly about.

ewing
10-01-2017, 02:15 PM
Why has sports come to this?


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flea
10-01-2017, 02:21 PM
There's no point arguing anything with mike noodles when it has to do with his emotions. He literally thinks the world would be a utopia if we had no borders or nations in spite of all the historical (and current) evidence that a lack of a nation or borders leads to nothing but criminality and sectarian violence.

Silver is smart for getting in front of this. I don't think the NBA would be as hard hit as the NFL has been for turning the league's ceremonial activities over to a bunch of crybaby millionaires but it definitely would hurt.

flea
10-01-2017, 02:22 PM
Why has sports come to this?


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The inmates have begun to run the asylum.

tredigs
10-01-2017, 02:23 PM
Why has sports come to this?


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Because that is what Trump wanted. But regardless, if we're going to go on for months about race and racial inequality and it is going to dominate all things sports/media (despite massive/real /pressing issues at hand), how about we throw in a little logic/accountability to the debate.

Jamiecballer
10-01-2017, 02:25 PM
What if a superstar kneels? Then what? You gonna suspend them all? What if Lebron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, etc all decide to take a knee. In a superstar driven league, I feel like Silver doesn't have as much power over this as he thinks he does.

And I also feel like this protest is finally really starting to get somewhere. I really hope the athletes don't give up. Stay unified. Don't let them divide and conquer.

One last thought; it would go a long way if the NHL would do something. Being the whitest sport of the big 4. Problem is, such a high percentage aren't American, maybe they feel they don't have a dog in this fight.Yeah, Crosby really pussed out. I am so disappointed with that.

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KB24PG16
10-01-2017, 02:26 PM
how long before people start calling for Silver's job?

Jamiecballer
10-01-2017, 02:29 PM
There's no point arguing anything with mike noodles when it has to do with his emotions. He literally thinks the world would be a utopia if we had no borders or nations in spite of all the historical (and current) evidence that a lack of a nation or borders leads to nothing but criminality and sectarian violence.

Silver is smart for getting in front of this. I don't think the NBA would be as hard hit as the NFL has been for turning the league's ceremonial activities over to a bunch of crybaby millionaires but it definitely would hurt.Gotta agree with Mike on that one. Borders and patriotism are not a good thing for society imo. Way off topic though.

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nastynice
10-01-2017, 02:36 PM
What if a superstar kneels? Then what? You gonna suspend them all? What if Lebron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, etc all decide to take a knee. In a superstar driven league, I feel like Silver doesn't have as much power over this as he thinks he does.

And I also feel like this protest is finally really starting to get somewhere. I really hope the athletes don't give up. Stay unified. Don't let them divide and conquer.

One last thought; it would go a long way if the NHL would do something. Being the whitest sport of the big 4. Problem is, such a high percentage aren't American, maybe they feel they don't have a dog in this fight.

My boy was heavy into hockey til his late teens, used to travel to camps in Minnesota and Canada. His fam was like my 2nd fam, I traveled a lot with him. I say this to say, I've been around a lot of hockey culture, and there ain't no ****in way they gonna join a cause like this, lmao!!

NBA can make a big impact tho, it is more star driven than any other league and it ain't close.

flea
10-01-2017, 02:37 PM
Gotta agree with Mike on that one. Borders and patriotism are not a good thing for society imo. Way off topic though.

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Yeah I knew you would. Whoever is teaching Canadians in school is doing a terrible job.

ewing
10-01-2017, 02:53 PM
The right thing to do is to cancel the anthem


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TheMightyHumph
10-01-2017, 03:02 PM
The Rockets and Knicks interlocked arms last year (maybe others did as well). Maybe this can be their "kneeling"?






Way to say something really ****ing stupid.

I don't think it's stupid. I won't go into detail, but think about it.

mike_noodles
10-01-2017, 04:27 PM
Yeah I knew you would. Whoever is teaching Canadians in school is doing a terrible job.

Yeah, we're terrible people. Believing that every human is actually born equal and trying to actually live that way.

Saddletramp
10-01-2017, 07:34 PM
I don't think it's stupid. I won't go into detail, but think about it.

Yeah, what you said is ****ing stupid.

TheMightyHumph
10-01-2017, 08:02 PM
Yeah, what you said is ****ing stupid.

Sorry , but my approach makes perfect sense, historically speaking.

Jamiecballer
10-01-2017, 09:01 PM
Yeah I knew you would. Whoever is teaching Canadians in school is doing a terrible job.Haha can I assume you are not living in a nation that elected a reality TV star for president

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ewing
10-01-2017, 09:14 PM
whatever your dumb bubble is I respect it. Leave sports alone. I don't have much

Vinylman
10-02-2017, 06:13 AM
I honestly don't even know what you're saying. You don't think the protest is gaining steam? You don't think it's being talked about more? I would agree that the chatter isn't always want you'd like, but people are talking.


Nope... and it won't ... athletes are not immune to short attention spans

Its just another issue co-opted by the left and right to curry favor with their bases...

the duopoly of the American political system has turned those that participate into nothing more than sheep.

IKnowHoops
10-02-2017, 11:38 AM
Talking yes, but about what, exactly? If we are going to have a racial debate in this country and we were being real it would be about the disgusting amount of black father's that do not raise their own children (a massive divide between them and all other races). Shaming them into taking authority of their lives would be the most important step for young black children in this country to actually have a fair shake at things in this life. That's what this nation needs to have the balls to speak up on and loudly about.

There are probably 3-4 glaring issues, with that being one of them.

flea
10-02-2017, 07:02 PM
Yeah, we're terrible people. Believing that every human is actually born equal and trying to actually live that way.

So you base your worldview on a patent lie, no wonder you're so out there. The truth is the exact inverse of you stated - every human being is born unequal. If you could ever prove that two people were born entirely equal, in any meaningful sense of the word, it would be one of the rarest instances in history.

Jamiecballer
10-02-2017, 07:16 PM
So you base your worldview on a patent lie, no wonder you're so out there. The truth is the exact inverse of you stated - every human being is born unequal. If you could ever prove that two people were born entirely equal, in any meaningful sense of the word, it would be one of the rarest instances in history.That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Really.

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Kyben36
10-02-2017, 07:28 PM
Expected not mandatory though. NBA will go through the same political BS when trump decides to tweet about it.

flea
10-02-2017, 07:49 PM
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Really.

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Super convincing, bro.

tredigs
10-02-2017, 08:07 PM
There are probably 3-4 glaring issues, with that being one of them.

We are a terribly oppressive nation in many respects, and the African community has certainly felt the full wrath of that oppression. They DO deserve more. They also need to demand MUCH more from themselves (looking at the grown men) if they want to rise up as a whole. Hopefully now that some of the nation's most powerful men are black will prove to change things.

Jamiecballer
10-02-2017, 08:22 PM
Super convincing, bro.Meh. I guess you'll have to trust me when I say I really, really meant it.

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IKnowHoops
10-03-2017, 12:04 AM
So you base your worldview on a patent lie, no wonder you're so out there. The truth is the exact inverse of you stated - every human being is born unequal. If you could ever prove that two people were born entirely equal, in any meaningful sense of the word, it would be one of the rarest instances in history.

Equal in that there soul and therefore the only reason for existence is equal to that of everyone else.

IKnowHoops
10-03-2017, 12:13 AM
We are a terribly oppressive nation in many respects, and the African community has certainly felt the full wrath of that oppression. They DO deserve more. They also need to demand MUCH more from themselves (looking at the grown men) if they want to rise up as a whole. Hopefully now that some of the nation's most powerful men are black will prove to change things.

The number 1 thing we all need to realize is that nothing is race thing and everything is a human thing. All races act the same when put in the exact same scenarios. Black people will oppress just as quickly as white people will given the same exact circumstances. No matter what race you are, if u live in a slummy area, your gonna have slummy tendencies. People need to get over the details of "what race is taking your job" and realize that lack of food tastes the same to your kids no matter what color the dude was.

tredigs
10-03-2017, 12:20 AM
The number 1 thing we all need to realize is that nothing is race thing and everything is a human thing. All races act the same when put in the exact same scenarios. Black people will oppress just as quickly as white people will given the same exact circumstances. No matter what race you are, if u live in a slummy area, your gonna have slummy tendencies. People need to get over the details of "what race is taking your job" and realize that lack of food tastes the same to your kids no matter what color the dude was.
Boom Boom. BUT, why have the vast majority of other races risen above as a whole? #1 - every other race takes care of their family first. African Americans don't. And I know MANY amazing African-American families, but they're failing as whole.

ewing
10-03-2017, 05:22 AM
Super convincing, bro.

He told me Jamal Crawford could be J Kidd and J Kidd coiuld be Jamal Crawford if they choose to :shrug:

IKnowHoops
10-03-2017, 11:25 AM
Boom Boom. BUT, why have the vast majority of other races risen above as a whole? #1 - every other race takes care of their family first. African Americans don't. And I know MANY amazing African-American families, but they're failing as whole.

That is because of how black people were brought here. Black people were slaves, so there roots in America begin as displaced, scared people who are taught they aren't worth anything.

IKnowHoops
10-03-2017, 11:26 AM
Boom Boom. BUT, why have the vast majority of other races risen above as a whole? #1 - every other race takes care of their family first. African Americans don't. And I know MANY amazing African-American families, but they're failing as whole.

Native Americans say hello. Fact is, this country knows how to crush a race.

Heediot
10-03-2017, 01:03 PM
That is because of how black people were brought here. Black people were slaves, so there roots in America begin as displaced, scared people who are taught they aren't worth anything.

That's self pity and self victimization. Jews have been oppressed through out history and they remain a strong and proud people. Playing the victim card has it's merit, but if you overplay it your not going to get anywhere. Pragmatism and the ability to blend into society and uplift one's community is what helps a group of people rise above.

valade16
10-03-2017, 01:17 PM
That's self pity and self victimization. Jews have been oppressed through out history and they remain a strong and proud people. Playing the victim card has it's merit, but if you overplay it your not going to get anywhere. Pragmatism and the ability to blend into society and uplift one's community is what helps a group of people rise above.

Very ironic because playing the victim card was what the Jewish people did to get Israel and what they do to get the US to continue to support them.

Heediot
10-03-2017, 01:34 PM
Very ironic because playing the victim card was what the Jewish people did to get Israel and what they do to get the US to continue to support them.

Yeah the Jewish government is sketchy. Maybe not the greatest example, but the Chinese have been oppressed in Canada and they have made a great diaspora and community there.

Jamiecballer
10-03-2017, 02:18 PM
He told me Jamal Crawford could be J Kidd and J Kidd coiuld be Jamal Crawford if they choose to :shrug:

yes, that's what was meant in that conversation :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 02:25 PM
Yea, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. The ahk been representing since back in the day. Haha, he cool as hell, he can still ball

Honestly, I think nba players should get involved. This whole kaepernick kneeling, then trump calling out players and owners, then them responding. The indgredients are ripe, they got a chance to make a change here and maybe change the way our system views black America. Something's gotta change, what better opportunity.

Cuz take our tax money we worked for all year to help make billionaires richer, no biggie. But I'll be damned if you take our sports away from us

the only thing I would say is, remember that white America is the huge majority of NBA/NFL fans. Right or wrong, they don't like to see rich young men tell them anything about suffering. So athletes do need to be careful how far they push this. You would be amazed how easy of a transition it would be to not have sports in our lives (as far as watching, following, etc).

I get why they think they should do it, it reaches out and touches thousands of people who might be suffering, might have voting rights to make changes, might have kids who seek education and better lives, etc. They just need to make sure and understand there are limits to how far they push their agenda.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 02:27 PM
Talking yes, but about what, exactly? If we are going to have a racial debate in this country and we were being real it would be about the disgusting amount of black father's that do not raise their own children (a massive divide between them and all other races). Shaming them into taking authority of their lives would be the most important step for young black children in this country to actually have a fair shake at things in this life. That's what this nation needs to have the balls to speak up on and loudly about.


holy ****ing **** yes dude!

It's the gorilla in the room that constantly gets avoided. The cyclical actions of the black male father and his abandonment of his children/family is more of a problem to their own communities than anyone EVER blames them for.

You can't raise boys to be men with nobody to show by example. It just keeps happening, over, and over, and over, and over...

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 03:51 PM
Tredigs is spot on in this discussion. Black people need to realize that the issue is within their own culture and glorifying the victim mentality rather than the "I can do it without being a victim" spirit. I mean, look at the Asian culture around cities. You rarely find any issues regarding them and it's because they understand what they have to do. Canada Toronto and Vancouver has exploded in home prices. Asians are dominating the field across many industries despite not so long ago, being frowned upon for their "communist" ideals and also, the hate they generally received due to WWII. Nowadays, you find Japanese culture strong and prevalent in many neighborhoods. This "I am a victim because I am black" is why blacks haven't progressed at the rate of others. I'm specifically referring to BLACK Americans. African immigrants are some of the hardest working people I've ever met. That just proves it to me that there is a culture among BLACK Americans that ignores values that promote self-sustainability.

People wonder why Trump won.. and this is precisely why. While most people focus on the issues that aren't going to change or improve their lives, they ignore the aspect of having a well-grown family that advocates being a model citizen. No one talks about blacks not investing in their own communities. You're telling me that if all the black celebrities and athletes came together to make Comptom or Chicago a safer place, it wouldn't make a huge impact? No one does it. We've been hearing about Chiraq for almost decades now but people are more focused on the few incidental deaths in which there are arguments that warrant a shooting but ended horribly? My uncle was a police officer for the NYPD for over two decades. They don't racially profile but everyone in that police department knew that they were more at risk when they were dealing with a black American. it's not racism as much as it is being a statistic. The issue should be, stop carrying your weapons illegally so cops don't have to take that necessary precaution. If statistics show me that blacks are 5x more likely to shoot an officer than a white individual, what do you think everyone's initial thought would be?

It's funny because I think that Trump will now win a 2nd term because people are focused on the wrong issues that have been pissing off the majority of Americans. No one cares about your BLM movement and knee on the ground. It's a false narrative by individuals who refuse to help their own community and take responsibility. If police stop shooting blacks 100%, how does that stop black communities that are struggling? I feel bad that these NFL players and related personnel are all guilted into joining this hilarious kneel cause. You can tell a bunch of them are uncomfrotable doing it but don't want to be bullied in by those who want to take a knee.. sad environment to be in.

ewing
10-03-2017, 03:58 PM
yes, that's what was meant in that conversation :rolleyes:


We are all equals. If only my 5'9 white *** wanted it more I'd be in the league

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 04:00 PM
Adam Silver isn't stupid. He understands that if players do this, they will create unwanted attention that will drive people away from the product. Look, I'm all up for players having an opinion but I don't watch NBA games to hear about what Stephen Curry thinks about with Planned Parenthood. These guys aren't experts so their opinion doesn't matter to me, really. I'm already turned off by the NFL and watched a total of two games this season. I'm sick of these players trying to all be the next revolutionist when they have zero knowledge on how to be one. Same goes for the NBA. I think they won't be hit as hard since NBA fans are generally "less" patriotic but if I had to hear about this nonsense game after game, goodbye. I don't care if they are OKC, Cavs, or even if the Seattle Supersonics games are on. Stop this nonsense, play that sport competitively, and start working on deprived black communities - the same ones that you all conveniently ignore but pretend to be "helping" because NBA has a contract forcing you to do it.. I mean, we all know those NBA Cares commercial is a marketing tool to promote these players but these guys aren't doing anything in the offseason to actively change their communities..

Heediot
10-03-2017, 04:06 PM
Tredigs is spot on in this discussion. Black people need to realize that the issue is within their own culture and glorifying the victim mentality rather than the "I can do it without being a victim" spirit. I mean, look at the Asian culture around cities. You rarely find any issues regarding them and it's because they understand what they have to do. Canada Toronto and Vancouver has exploded in home prices. Asians are dominating the field across many industries despite not so long ago, being frowned upon for their "communist" ideals and also, the hate they generally received due to WWII. Nowadays, you find Japanese culture strong and prevalent in many neighborhoods. This "I am a victim because I am black" is why blacks haven't progressed at the rate of others. I'm specifically referring to BLACK Americans. African immigrants are some of the hardest working people I've ever met. That just proves it to me that there is a culture among BLACK Americans that ignores values that promote self-sustainability.

People wonder why Trump won.. and this is precisely why. While most people focus on the issues that aren't going to change or improve their lives, they ignore the aspect of having a well-grown family that advocates being a model citizen. No one talks about blacks not investing in their own communities. You're telling me that if all the black celebrities and athletes came together to make Comptom or Chicago a safer place, it wouldn't make a huge impact? No one does it. We've been hearing about Chiraq for almost decades now but people are more focused on the few incidental deaths in which there are arguments that warrant a shooting but ended horribly? My uncle was a police officer for the NYPD for over two decades. They don't racially profile but everyone in that police department knew that they were more at risk when they were dealing with a black American. it's not racism as much as it is being a statistic. The issue should be, stop carrying your weapons illegally so cops don't have to take that necessary precaution. If statistics show me that blacks are 5x more likely to shoot an officer than a white individual, what do you think everyone's initial thought would be?

It's funny because I think that Trump will now win a 2nd term because people are focused on the wrong issues that have been pissing off the majority of Americans. No one cares about your BLM movement and knee on the ground. It's a false narrative by individuals who refuse to help their own community and take responsibility. If police stop shooting blacks 100%, how does that stop black communities that are struggling? I feel bad that these NFL players and related personnel are all guilted into joining this hilarious kneel cause. You can tell a bunch of them are uncomfrotable doing it but don't want to be bullied in by those who want to take a knee.. sad environment to be in.

Money post!

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 04:07 PM
Tredigs is spot on in this discussion. Black people need to realize that the issue is within their own culture and glorifying the victim mentality rather than the "I can do it without being a victim" spirit. I mean, look at the Asian culture around cities. You rarely find any issues regarding them and it's because they understand what they have to do. Canada Toronto and Vancouver has exploded in home prices. Asians are dominating the field across many industries despite not so long ago, being frowned upon for their "communist" ideals and also, the hate they generally received due to WWII. Nowadays, you find Japanese culture strong and prevalent in many neighborhoods. This "I am a victim because I am black" is why blacks haven't progressed at the rate of others. I'm specifically referring to BLACK Americans. African immigrants are some of the hardest working people I've ever met. That just proves it to me that there is a culture among BLACK Americans that ignores values that promote self-sustainability.

People wonder why Trump won.. and this is precisely why. While most people focus on the issues that aren't going to change or improve their lives, they ignore the aspect of having a well-grown family that advocates being a model citizen. No one talks about blacks not investing in their own communities. You're telling me that if all the black celebrities and athletes came together to make Comptom or Chicago a safer place, it wouldn't make a huge impact? No one does it. We've been hearing about Chiraq for almost decades now but people are more focused on the few incidental deaths in which there are arguments that warrant a shooting but ended horribly? My uncle was a police officer for the NYPD for over two decades. They don't racially profile but everyone in that police department knew that they were more at risk when they were dealing with a black American. it's not racism as much as it is being a statistic. The issue should be, stop carrying your weapons illegally so cops don't have to take that necessary precaution. If statistics show me that blacks are 5x more likely to shoot an officer than a white individual, what do you think everyone's initial thought would be?

It's funny because I think that Trump will now win a 2nd term because people are focused on the wrong issues that have been pissing off the majority of Americans. No one cares about your BLM movement and knee on the ground. It's a false narrative by individuals who refuse to help their own community and take responsibility. If police stop shooting blacks 100%, how does that stop black communities that are struggling? I feel bad that these NFL players and related personnel are all guilted into joining this hilarious kneel cause. You can tell a bunch of them are uncomfrotable doing it but don't want to be bullied in by those who want to take a knee.. sad environment to be in.

while I fully agree the African American community needs to take a long look at itself before pointing the finger elsewhere, systematic oppression of their race is a reality in this country, and has been for 200 years.

But yes, until they can fix the problems within their own community, pointing a finger to the outside is trivial, and does nothing. The people kneeling, and protesting, I don't see them in the streets calling out the fathers who leave their families every single day. But, they also aren't trying to bring to light the issues inside the black community, they are trying to bring to light the issues with cop/black community relationships. And I get that.

Heediot
10-03-2017, 04:13 PM
while I fully agree the African American community needs to take a long look at itself before pointing the finger elsewhere, systematic oppression of their race is a reality in this country, and has been for 200 years.

But yes, until they can fix the problems within their own community, pointing a finger to the outside is trivial, and does nothing. The people kneeling, and protesting, I don't see them in the streets calling out the fathers who leave their families every single day. But, they also aren't trying to bring to light the issues inside the black community, they are trying to bring to light the issues with cop/black community relationships. And I get that.

Yeah there are cases of police brutality and misuse of power, but how many Michael Bennett claims are there as well? I don't want to get too deep into politics, which is not my flex. I am sure they have some legit beefs, but I think some of the grudges are exaggerated as well.

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 04:16 PM
while I fully agree the African American community needs to take a long look at itself before pointing the finger elsewhere, systematic oppression of their race is a reality in this country, and has been for 200 years.

But yes, until they can fix the problems within their own community, pointing a finger to the outside is trivial, and does nothing. The people kneeling, and protesting, I don't see them in the streets calling out the fathers who leave their families every single day. But, they also aren't trying to bring to light the issues inside the black community, they are trying to bring to light the issues with cop/black community relationships. And I get that.

It has been. But continuing to ask for reparations or thinking that what happened 200 years ago is the direct result of your situation today is a loser's mentality. Do these guys expect to be repaid or that other races should go through what they did for society to be "correct" again? I mean, Irish slaves were being transported in the masses as well but no one ever talks about that. More black slaves were transported to Brazil than the United States.. yet, no one talks about those injustices whatsoever. They can't pick-and-choose where they want to win in. Society doesn't work that way and that is why some have difficulty growing as a whole. I mean, how many of our parents grew up working 2-3 jobs, hands soaked with blisters? Mine did. It's an absolute insult to those who work hard because some individuals can't see the problems within their own communities. They follow a guy like Al Sharpton - who promotes racism. Then they look up to a celebrity and say they are "woke" when zero facts are used. It's a sickening way of life. Can cops be better? Sure. But blacks can be MUCH better. You can't expect a few instances of cop behavior to change when millions of your own people are refusing to improve their own life. It makes zero sense.

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 04:19 PM
Yeah there are cases of police brutality and misuse of power, but how many Michael Bennett claims are there as well? I don't want to get too deep into politics, which is not my flex. I am sure they have some legit beefs, but I think some of the grudges are exaggerated as well.

A bunch of them are exaggerated by the media. Go figure. And where do most millenials get their news from? IG, Facebook. Where it is proven that "fake-news" is being redistributed across all media platforms. All it takes is one guy to post it and then millions redistribute it like hot cakes.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 04:30 PM
Yeah there are cases of police brutality and misuse of power, but how many Michael Bennett claims are there as well? I don't want to get too deep into politics, which is not my flex. I am sure they have some legit beefs, but I think some of the grudges are exaggerated as well.

Slavery, then Jim Crowe laws, then social security targeting, then housing targeting, the entire war on drugs, these were all systematic targeting actions directed straight at blacks. We can't pretend they haven't been pushed into a corner.

That being said, until they do indeed look into the mirror at the culture they have developed themselves, they can't expect progression as a community. As talked about above, they are a mostly fatherless society that just breeds cyclical dysfunction, and they have to find a way out of that cycle. That won't be easy.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 04:32 PM
It has been. But continuing to ask for reparations or thinking that what happened 200 years ago is the direct result of your situation today is a loser's mentality. Do these guys expect to be repaid or that other races should go through what they did for society to be "correct" again? I mean, Irish slaves were being transported in the masses as well but no one ever talks about that. More black slaves were transported to Brazil than the United States.. yet, no one talks about those injustices whatsoever. They can't pick-and-choose where they want to win in. Society doesn't work that way and that is why some have difficulty growing as a whole. I mean, how many of our parents grew up working 2-3 jobs, hands soaked with blisters? Mine did. It's an absolute insult to those who work hard because some individuals can't see the problems within their own communities. They follow a guy like Al Sharpton - who promotes racism. Then they look up to a celebrity and say they are "woke" when zero facts are used. It's a sickening way of life. Can cops be better? Sure. But blacks can be MUCH better. You can't expect a few instances of cop behavior to change when millions of your own people are refusing to improve their own life. It makes zero sense.

I don't see the black community asking for any of that dude. They just want to be treated fairly. The biggest thing Tre said, that I have said before, and agree with, is that a big part of their community being down is because of the ridiculous percentage of families with one parent. That breeds so many problems man. When Mom is working 3 jobs to take care of her kids, the streets teach you. That isn't a good thing..

valade16
10-03-2017, 04:39 PM
Fun fact: The "look at Asians and how well they've integrated" was created bin the 1960's to try to vilify black efforts to repeal separate but equal:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/19/the-real-secret-to-asian-american-success-was-not-education/?utm_term=.40c4bedc8960

For those who doubt that racial resentment lingers in this nation, Asian Americans are a favorite talking point. The argument goes something like this: If “white privilege” is so oppressive — if the United States is so hostile toward its minorities — why do census figures show that Asian Americans out-earn everyone?

In a 2014 editorial, conservative commentator Bill O'Reilly pointed out that Asian household incomes were 20 percent higher than white household incomes on average. “So, do we have Asian privilege in America?” he asked. Of course not, he said. The real reason that Asians are “succeeding far more than African-Americans and even more than white Americans” is that “their families are intact and education is paramount,” he said.

This claim has been with us since at least the 1960s, when it served as a popular rejoinder to the challenges issued by the civil rights movement. Many newspapers printed flattering portraits of Asian Americans to cast skepticism on the people marching for economic and social justice.

“At a time when it is being proposed that hundreds of billions be spent to uplift the Negroes and other minorities, the nation’s 300,000 Chinese-Americans are moving ahead on their own,” claimed a 1966 story in the U.S. News and World Report, which noted their “strict discipline” and “traditional virtues.”

To the extent that all myths are rooted in truth, this model minority stereotype recognizes a real pattern of Asian upward mobility. A century ago, Asian Americans were known as laborers of the lowest wage. They were ditch diggers, launderers, miners. Yet over the decades, despite poverty, racial violence and widespread discrimination, many Asians managed to clamber up the socioeconomic ladder.

Until now, the story of how that happened has been poorly understood.

“The widespread assumption is that Asian Americans came to the United States very disadvantaged, and they wound up advantaged through extraordinary investments in their children’s education,” says Brown University economist Nathaniel Hilger.

But that's not what really happened, he says.

Hilger recently used old census records to trace the fortunes of whites, blacks and Asians who were born in California during the early- to mid-20th century. He found that educational gains had little to do with how Asian Americans managed to close the wage gap with whites by the 1970s.

Instead, his research suggests that society simply became less racist toward Asians.

Asian Americans have been part of the United States for most of its history. The first major wave of immigrants came in the 1800s, when Chinese laborers flocked to California to help build railroads. Their presence soon stirred up resentments among white Americans. The Chinese Massacre of 1871, which took place in the streets of Los Angeles, counts among the largest lynchings in U.S. history.

Asians in the United States have often endured racism. The internment of Japanese Americans during World War II is one of the most infamous examples. (Russell Lee, April 1942, Los Angeles. Library of Congress)

In 1882, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, which shut the door on the influx of low-skilled Chinese labor. By 1924, nearly all immigration from Asian nations was banned. Despite widespread discrimination, many families remained, settling mostly in California. Opinion surveys from that era show that whites expressed extreme prejudice against both Asian and African Americans. Asians also lived in segregated neighborhoods and often sent their children to segregated schools. To survive, many opened their own businesses because no one would employ them.

Hilger’s research focuses on native-born whites, blacks and Asians to rule out the effects of subsequent immigration. In 1965, changing laws ushered in a surge of high-skilled, high-earning Asian workers, who now account for most of the Asians living in the United States today.

But even before the arrival of those highly educated immigrants, the Asians already living in the United States had more or less closed the wage gap with whites.

At the time of the 1940 census, Hilger found, California-born Asian men earned less than California-born black men. By the 1970 census, they were earning about the same as white men, and by the 1980 census, the native-born Asian men were out-earning white men.

Throughout this time, many Asian American families did invest, increasingly, in their children's education. But Hilger discovered that the improvements in educational attainment were too modest to explain how Asians' earnings grew so fast.

The picture became much clearer when he compared people with similar levels of education. Hilger found that in the 1940s, Asian men were paid less than white men with the same amount of schooling. But by the 1980s, that gap had mostly disappeared.

“Asians used to be paid like blacks,” Hilger said. “But between 1940 and 1970, they started to get paid like whites.” The charts below shows average earnings for native-born black, white and Asian depending on how much education they had.

In 1980, for instance, even Asian high school dropouts were earning about as much as white high school dropouts, and vastly more than black high school dropouts. This dramatic shift had nothing to do with Asians accruing more education. Instead, Hilger points to the slow dismantling of discriminatory institutions after World War II, and the softening of racist prejudices. That’s the same the explanation advanced by economists Harriet Orcutt Duleep and Seth Sanders, who found that in the second half of the 20th century, Asian Americans not only started to work in more lucrative industries, but also started to get paid more for the same kind of work.

In other words, the remarkable upward mobility of California-born Asians wasn’t about superior schooling (not yet, anyway). It was the result of Asians finally receiving better opportunities — finally earning equal pay for equal skills and equal work.

Why couldn’t African Americans close the wage gap? It’s hard to say. Hilger found some evidence that there were underlying differences in skill. Between Asians and African Americans with the same amount of schooling, African Americans tended to achieve lower scores on military enlistment tests during the 1940s.

But it’s also likely that postwar racial attitudes shifted differently for Asians than for African Americans. In the 1850s, newspapers in California complained that Chinese immigrants were the dregs of the laboring class, having “most of the vices and few of the virtues of the African.” Yet by the 1960s, attitudes had completely flipped. Journalists praised Asians for being hard workers who cherished education, kept their heads down and rarely complained.

Since then, waves of high-skill immigration have further cemented the stereotype of Asians as a studious, well-off demographic. Highly educated parents encourage their children to become highly educated, compounding the advantage. About half of Asian Americans over the age of 25 now hold college degrees, compared with only 28 percent of Americans overall.

Hilger's research found that 50 years ago, Asians were held back primarily by lack of opportunities. Now that discrimination against Asians has lessened somewhat, the Asian edge in education is apparent: Average incomes among Asians Americans are higher because Asian Americans have higher rates of college attainment. (To be clear, we are talking about averages only. As a group, Asian Americans have considerable socioeconomic diversity.)

But if we take a page from Hilger and focus on people with similar educational backgrounds, the residual disadvantages become clear. Asians actually earn 5 percent less compared with whites who also have advanced degrees — while blacks and Hispanics earn 20 percent less.

This is one of several problems with the model minority myth. (Here’s another.) Many people hold up Asian Americans as proof that hard work and education leads to success no matter your skin color. On the contrary, these statistics show that being a minority in the United States often means working harder to earn less.

More education will help close racial wage gaps somewhat, but it will not resolve problems of denied opportunity. In fact, recent studies suggest that income disparities are growing at the very top between blacks and whites. According to an Economic Policy Institute report from September, the difference between what a white college graduate earns and what a black college graduate earns has widened since the 1980s.

Emphasizing the power of educational attainment also obscures the barriers that remain. Despite the complaints of Stephen K. Bannon, President-elect Donald Trump’s alt-right adviser who’s a darling of white supremacy groups, it is simply false that “two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia.” Even among technology companies, which hire a disproportionate number of Asian workers, Asians are vastly underrepresented in upper management. Yet, the model minority myth makes a statement like Bannon's feel true to many.

Asian Americans — some of them at least — have made tremendous progress in the United States. But the greatest thing that ever happened to them wasn't that they studied hard, or that they benefited from tiger moms or Confucian values. It's that other Americans started treating them with a little more respect.

hugepatsfan
10-03-2017, 04:45 PM
Why does it have to be either-or? I don't see why there can't be push for both internal improvement in the black community and also an end to racism. And I don't understand why internal improvement should need to happen before racism ends. It isn't a tough concept... People are racists even though they shouldn't be and that's worthy of protesting IMO. There are also self destructive behaviors in the black community that should be fixed. Both are very cut and dry issues to me and don't understand why any sane person couldn't recognize both independently of one another.

mngopher35
10-03-2017, 04:46 PM
I don't see the black community asking for any of that dude. They just want to be treated fairly. The biggest thing Tre said, that I have said before, and agree with, is that a big part of their community being down is because of the ridiculous percentage of families with one parent. That breeds so many problems man. When Mom is working 3 jobs to take care of her kids, the streets teach you. That isn't a good thing..

Yup and many of the issues you posted earlier also play into why that family might not be as likely. Slavery, jim crow laws, housing, war on drugs etc. can all play into not only the obvious discrimination/reasons (can't be a family man if you incarcerated for some weed or shot by a cop while in a car with your family) but how they even view things like family etc.

It is fair to say they ALSO need to change something within the communities etc. but that doesn't take away from their fight against injustices either IMO.

Heediot
10-03-2017, 04:46 PM
Asian Americans — some of them at least — have made tremendous progress in the United States. But the greatest thing that ever happened to them wasn't that they studied hard, or that they benefited from tiger moms or Confucian values. It's that other Americans started treating them with a little more respect.[/I]


very interesting and nice find.

mngopher35
10-03-2017, 04:47 PM
Why does it have to be either-or? I don't see why there can't be push for both internal improvement in the black community and also an end to racism. And I don't understand why internal improvement should need to happen before racism ends. It isn't a tough concept... People are racists even though they shouldn't be and that's worthy of protesting IMO. There are also self destructive behaviors in the black community that should be fixed. Both are very cut and dry issues to me and don't understand why any sane person couldn't recognize both independently of one another.

wow beat me to it, agreed.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 04:48 PM
Why does it have to be either-or? I don't see why there can't be push for both internal improvement in the black community and also an end to racism. And I don't understand why internal improvement should need to happen before racism ends. It isn't a tough concept... People are racists even though they shouldn't be and that's worthy of protesting IMO. There are also self destructive behaviors in the black community that should be fixed. Both are very cut and dry issues to me and don't understand why any sane person couldn't recognize both independently of one another.

it doesn't. But you also have to understand their actions will cause and immediate reaction.

I get why they are protesting. Is it the platform I would chose? No, it isn't. But I get why they are doing it. We are sitting here, talking about it on a chatboard, so mission accomplished.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 04:51 PM
Yup and many of the issues you posted earlier also play into why that family might not be as likely. Slavery, jim crow laws, housing, war on drugs etc. can all play into not only the obvious discrimination/reasons (can't be a family man if you incarcerated for some weed or shot by a cop while in a car with your family) but how they even view things like family etc.

It is fair to say they ALSO need to change something within the communities etc. but that doesn't take away from their fight against injustices either IMO.

absolutely dude. Whites in this country have had it made in the shade compared to everyone else. They (nobody actually) don't want to be poked and prodded, and have an obvious social injustice issue thrown at them, they would rather let it stay in the ghetto's of the country and ignore it. Whether you agree with how all of this is being brought up today, at least it's on a national stage, daily, and in our faces. Get annoyed all you want, the easy fix is out there....make all equal. But that will cause so many to give up something, which humans aren't fond of.

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 04:51 PM
A bunch of them are exaggerated by the media. Go figure. And where do most millenials get their news from? IG, Facebook. Where it is proven that "fake-news" is being redistributed across all media platforms. All it takes is one guy to post it and then millions redistribute it like hot cakes.

Gerrymandering. Systematic disenfranchisement of minority voters. Perfectly legal, no one goes to jail when they get caught. And no chance of the media filming you with fire hoses and attack dogs.

mngopher35
10-03-2017, 04:55 PM
it doesn't. But you also have to understand their actions will cause and immediate reaction.

I get why they are protesting. Is it the platform I would chose? No, it isn't. But I get why they are doing it. We are sitting here, talking about it on a chatboard, so mission accomplished.

To be fair though talking about it at award shows isn't right. Protesting legally in the streets is not the way to go either (I get why illegally and the destruction as an issue). Protesting during the anthem is not the way to go. Protesting before the anthem like Baltimore as to not disrespect it also gets boo's.

In the end I think a lot of people are going to complain no matter how the protest is done. It's the message that scares too many in this country, not someone disrespecting the flag. It's hilarious how many codes of conduct related to the flag I have seen broken repeatedly and even at NFL games without a single peep until it became an issue about race. Not saying you are wrong for having that opinion, just that no matter how it is done it seems like some people will complain about the method.

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 04:56 PM
https://qz.com/395207/if-asian-americans-saw-white-americans-the-way-white-americans-see-black-americans/

Data show that they have surpassed white Americans in so many ways that Asian Americans could talk about white Americans as disparagingly as white Americans talk about the country’s black population.

Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 04:56 PM
Why does it have to be either-or? I don't see why there can't be push for both internal improvement in the black community and also an end to racism. And I don't understand why internal improvement should need to happen before racism ends. It isn't a tough concept... People are racists even though they shouldn't be and that's worthy of protesting IMO. There are also self destructive behaviors in the black community that should be fixed. Both are very cut and dry issues to me and don't understand why any sane person couldn't recognize both independently of one another.

Yeah.....


Yup and many of the issues you posted earlier also play into why that family might not be as likely. Slavery, jim crow laws, housing, war on drugs etc. can all play into not only the obvious discrimination/reasons (can't be a family man if you incarcerated for some weed or shot by a cop while in a car with your family) but how they even view things like family etc.

It is fair to say they ALSO need to change something within the communities etc. but that doesn't take away from their fight against injustices either IMO.

....and yes.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 05:00 PM
To be fair though talking about it at award shows isn't right. Protesting legally in the streets is not the way to go either (I get why illegally and the destruction as an issue). Protesting during the anthem is not the way to go. Protesting before the anthem like Baltimore as to not disrespect it also gets boo's.

In the end I think a lot of people are going to complain no matter how the protest is done. It's the message that scares too many in this country, not someone disrespecting the flag. It's hilarious how many codes of conduct related to the flag I have seen broken repeatedly and even at NFL games without a single peep until it became an issue about race. Not saying you are wrong for having that opinion, just that no matter how it is done it seems like some people will complain about the method.

I apologize, maybe I didn't convey correctly. Yes, agreed with the bold, that is my point I guess. I personally wouldn't pick such a hot item as the flag/anthem, that is what I meant.

But, protests are not meant to be convenient, or to keep out of your way. It has people talking, so it's doing something positive. Right?

Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 05:02 PM
it doesn't. But you also have to understand their actions will cause and immediate reaction.

If the black community was looked down upon only because they were ****** parents, then maybe. But we all know that isn't the main reason (or probably an actual reason) that people look down on them.


I have no idea what I would do or how I'd act if my ancestors were brought here as slaves and people continually looked at me as a lesser human being. I might be a ****** father, too.

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 05:10 PM
Asian American men and women both earn more than their white counterparts

Young Asian Americans, those between ages 25-29, are better educated than white Americans

The divorce rate for Asian Americans is also lower than that of white Americans

A 2009 report (pdf, pg. 3) from the National Council on Crime and Delinquency (NCCD) found that a smaller share of Asian Americans were incarcerated compared to the share of white Americans. In this case, the Asian American category includes people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent. By more recent estimates, white Americans, including Hispanics who identify as white, made up 78% of the US population in 2013 and 59% of the US federal inmate population in 2015, while Asian Americans made up 5.3% of the US population in 2013 and 1.5% of the federal inmate population.

Asian Americans don’t blame “white culture” for individual crimes among white people, Dash points out. So why do white Americans blame crime among black people on “black culture”?

We could point at how white Americans compare to Asian Americans in violence, in education, in income. We could call your kids thugs.

I am glad that white Americans don't have to endure the daily dehumanization that black people do; nobody should have to.

But imagine if every time a white person underwent a tragedy, you heard Asians mentioning white on white crime & white dropouts. Inhuman.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 05:10 PM
If the black community was looked down upon only because they were ****** parents, then maybe. But we all know that isn't the main reason (or probably an actual reason) that people look down on them.


I have no idea what I would do or how I'd act if my ancestors were brought here as slaves and people continually looked at me as a lesser human being. I might be a ****** father, too.

yeah but people have pushed forward for centuries. You can't blame anything or anyone for being a bad parent, sorry.

The problem is, the black community treats itself like **** dude. Then top if with systematic oppression? Game over.

There are 2 things here-

blacks need to start treating blacks better, and blacks need to be given an equal chance at a successful life.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 05:13 PM
Asian American men and women both earn more than their white counterparts

Young Asian Americans, those between ages 25-29, are better educated than white Americans

The divorce rate for Asian Americans is also lower than that of white Americans

A 2009 report (pdf, pg. 3) from the National Council on Crime and Delinquency (NCCD) found that a smaller share of Asian Americans were incarcerated compared to the share of white Americans. In this case, the Asian American category includes people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent. By more recent estimates, white Americans, including Hispanics who identify as white, made up 78% of the US population in 2013 and 59% of the US federal inmate population in 2015, while Asian Americans made up 5.3% of the US population in 2013 and 1.5% of the federal inmate population.

Asian Americans don’t blame “white culture” for individual crimes among white people, Dash points out. So why do white Americans blame crime among black people on “black culture”?

We could point at how white Americans compare to Asian Americans in violence, in education, in income. We could call your kids thugs.

I am glad that white Americans don't have to endure the daily dehumanization that black people do; nobody should have to.

But imagine if every time a white person underwent a tragedy, you heard Asians mentioning white on white crime & white dropouts. Inhuman.

unfortunately, blacks are such an outlier when it comes to crime. If you don't think they have a problem within their own society, with a rate of fatherless kids so high it's ridiculous, and committing crimes on each other at an alarming rate, I am not sure what to tell you.

Now, that has nothing to do with the fact that they have also been systematically put in a corner, with all sorts of racist policies, targeting, and live as a community not respected the same as most others.

A TON needs to change. But you can't ignore some of that must come within the black community itself.

Heediot
10-03-2017, 05:18 PM
Discipline and family seem to be some very interesting factors among racial groups.

ewing
10-03-2017, 05:19 PM
https://qz.com/395207/if-asian-americans-saw-white-americans-the-way-white-americans-see-black-americans/

They should. efficiency stats aren't everything. You got to be an alpha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 05:21 PM
yeah but people have pushed forward for centuries. You can't blame anything or anyone for being a bad parent, sorry.

The problem is, the black community treats itself like **** dude. Then top if with systematic oppression? Game over.

There are 2 things here-

blacks need to start treating blacks better, and blacks need to be given an equal chance at a successful life.

So to sum it up: until they get their **** together, **** 'em. Gotcha.

"Sorry your unarmed father was shot and killed but since he's black, he probably deserved it. If only all of the bad black fathers out there would have been good black fathers, we might actually be forced to look at how we treat tha race as a whole."

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 05:26 PM
unfortunately, blacks are such an outlier when it comes to crime. If you don't think they have a problem within their own society, with a rate of fatherless kids so high it's ridiculous, and committing crimes on each other at an alarming rate, I am not sure what to tell you.

Now, that has nothing to do with the fact that they have also been systematically put in a corner, with all sorts of racist policies, targeting, and live as a community not respected the same as most others.

A TON needs to change. But you can't ignore some of that must come within the black community itself.

Then you, culturally, are responsible for Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazynski, Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas. White culture produced these monsters, with your obsession with guns and violence. White people need to hold themselves accountable for and fix their community.

See how stupid that sounds when people are saying it about you?

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 05:31 PM
So to sum it up: until they get their **** together, **** 'em. Gotcha.

"Sorry your unarmed father was shot and killed but since he's black, he probably deserved it. If only all of the bad black fathers out there would have been good black fathers, we might actually be forced to look at how we treat tha race as a whole."

if that is what you are getting from my posts, I apologize.

Heediot
10-03-2017, 05:37 PM
Then you, culturally, are responsible for Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazynski, Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas. White culture produced these monsters, with your obsession with guns and violence. White people need to hold themselves accountable for and fix their community.

See how stupid that sounds when people are saying it about you?

Do you think asians would call out whites more if they were the majority? Whites are nearly 3/4 of the country whereas asians are like 1/20.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2017, 05:42 PM
Then you, culturally, are responsible for Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazynski, Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas. White culture produced these monsters, with your obsession with guns and violence. White people need to hold themselves accountable for and fix their community.

See how stupid that sounds when people are saying it about you?

pointing out that a large disparity of kids come from broken homes, and that a large amount of violent crime is committed amongst it's own people, isn't remotely the same as saying they are responsible for the oppression they have experienced in this country.

you are pointing out the outliers of white society. What is your point? Are you saying the black community doesn't have a much larger proportion of broken homes, and crime?

tredigs
10-03-2017, 05:45 PM
Then you, culturally, are responsible for Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazynski, Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas. White culture produced these monsters, with your obsession with guns and violence. White people need to hold themselves accountable for and fix their community.

See how stupid that sounds when people are saying it about you?

The reason why that sounds stupid is because you're talking about a handful of people and not the majority of an entire race (speaking to the fact that a black child is more likely to be raised in a single family home then otherwise. A massive chasm between them and every other group in this country in that regard). Which, in turn significantly increases the odds of growing up impoverished, which in turn significantly increases the odds of turning to crime. It is a massive issue with a lot of nuance of course, and nobody is saying they are being treated with the same (or an appropriate level) of fairness in our society, but unfortunately that is the reality of the hand they are dealt right now. To compound already being in the worst situation with literally THE single worst thing you can do to ensure failure for your youth (abandoning their children en masse, often times with multiple women) is something that needs to be brought up FAR more often than it is.

We talk ENDLESSLY (mostly rightfully so) about the oppression of the blacks in this country and contrary to some of the opinions in here, there are massive programs set up specifically for blacks (and many more set up for those in poverty) to try to aid them in growing out of their current standing. My contention is that we need to start a much louder dialogue about what they can do to help themselves.

Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 05:46 PM
pointing out that a large disparity of kids come from broken homes, and that a large amount of violent crime is committed amongst it's own people, isn't remotely the same as saying they are responsible for the oppression they have experienced in this country.

you are pointing out the outliers of white society. What is your point? Are you saying the black community doesn't have a much larger proportion of broken homes, and crime?

Maybe the broken home problem is caused by being looked down upon and being oppressed for centuries?

Like I said earlier, I don't know how I would feel if I were born a black man in our current generation and I don't want to start pointing fingers at how they should fix their own problems before we fix our problems with them.

Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 05:51 PM
I got it! Everyone should kneel! The blacks can kneel for equality and the whites can kneel for better parenting in the black community. Win/win!

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 05:55 PM
Maybe the broken home problem is caused by being looked down upon and being oppressed for centuries?

Like I said earlier, I don't know how I would feel if I were born a black man in our current generation and I don't want to start pointing fingers at how they should fix their own problems before we fix our problems with them.

Blacks aren't the only impoverished race in this world. Let's stop trying to act as if being Asian is any different or as if whites are all born with a silver spoon. My grandparents told me stories of how the Japanese used to invade their homes, **** in their pots and pans, rape the housewives and forced the husbands to watch, etc., Have blacks been treated the worst in American history? Yeah. But those days are long gone. Let's talk about now and how the culture hasn't changed with the victim mentality.

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 05:55 PM
The reason why that sounds stupid is because you're talking about a handful of people and not the majority of an entire race (speaking to the fact that a black child is more likely to be raised in a single family home then otherwise. A massive chasm between them and every other group in this country in that regard). Which, in turn significantly increases the odds of growing up impoverished, which in turn significantly increases the odds of turning to crime. It is a massive issue with a lot of nuance of course, and nobody is saying they are being treated with the same (or an appropriate level) of fairness in our society, but unfortunately that is the reality of the hand they are dealt right now. To compound already being in the worst situation with literally THE single worst thing you can do to ensure failure for your youth (abandoning their children en masse, often times with multiple women) is something that needs to be brought up FAR more often than it is.

We talk ENDLESSLY (mostly rightfully so) about the oppression of the blacks in this country and contrary to some of the opinions in here, there are massive programs set up specifically for blacks (and many more set up for those in poverty) to try to aid them in growing out of their current standing. My contention is that we need to start a much louder dialogue about what they can do to help themselves.

You literally just made my point. You call white criminals outliers, but black criminals are outliers are well. Either in percentages or gross numbers, whites are FAR more criminally inclined than Asians. Gun owners are far more likely to have their firearm used on someone living in the home than on a criminal. According to this thread, those criminals are not individuals who made their own choices, but a product of the pervasisve, gun obssessed, violent white culture.

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 05:56 PM
I got it! Everyone should kneel! The blacks can kneel for equality and the whites can kneel for better parenting in the black community. Win/win!

What does kneeling do? It's some stupid action that serves no purpose. What has Colin honestly achieved in the past year? There is no dialogue because no one is actually doing this on a respectful level that can be taken with aptitude. I think Warriors screwed up big time not going to the White House. They took it as a "Us vs Trump" thing instead of a "How can we get our message across in the one office that can probably promote that?"

tredigs
10-03-2017, 05:59 PM
100% with Obama when he had the guts to say this, "Addressing a packed congregation at one of the city’s largest black churches, Senator Barack Obama on Sunday invoked his own absent father to deliver a sharp message to African-American men, saying, “We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”

“Too many fathers are M.I.A, too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,” Mr. Obama said, to a chorus of approving murmurs from the audience. “They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”

The speech was striking for its setting, and in how Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, directly addressed one of the most sensitive topics in the African-American community: whether absent fathers bore responsibility for some of the intractable problems afflicting black Americans. Mr. Obama noted that “more than half of all black children live in single-parent households,” a number that he said had doubled since his own childhood."

"doubled since his own childhood". That's the insane thing. It's an epidemic that has only gotten worse despite the fact that I'd say blacks in the 50's had it just atouch harder than the current generation.

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 06:00 PM
100% with Obama when he had the guts to say this, "Addressing a packed congregation at one of the city’s largest black churches, Senator Barack Obama on Sunday invoked his own absent father to deliver a sharp message to African-American men, saying, “We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”

“Too many fathers are M.I.A, too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,” Mr. Obama said, to a chorus of approving murmurs from the audience. “They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”

The speech was striking for its setting, and in how Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, directly addressed one of the most sensitive topics in the African-American community: whether absent fathers bore responsibility for some of the intractable problems afflicting black Americans. Mr. Obama noted that “more than half of all black children live in single-parent households,” a number that he said had doubled since his own childhood."

"doubled since his own childhood". That's the insane thing. It's an epidemic that has only gotten worse despite the fact that I'd say blacks in the 50's had it just atouch harder than the current generation.

Does that statistic include households that are missing fathers due to petty crimes, though? That is certainly a huge concern that should be looked at.

tredigs
10-03-2017, 06:01 PM
What does kneeling do? It's some stupid action that serves no purpose. What has Colin honestly achieved in the past year? There is no dialogue because no one is actually doing this on a respectful level that can be taken with aptitude. I think Warriors screwed up big time not going to the White House. They took it as a "Us vs Trump" thing instead of a "How can we get our message across in the one office that can probably promote that?"
That's what the Warriors were meeting on and talking about doing if they went. Trump - child that he is - said that because they were discussing it as a team he was removing their invitation.

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 06:05 PM
Do you think asians would call out whites more if they were the majority? Whites are nearly 3/4 of the country whereas asians are like 1/20.

The most racist people I know are Asian. They absolutely judge an entire culture based on the actions of individuals, just like is happening here.

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 06:08 PM
The most racist people I know are Asian. They absolutely judge an entire culture based on the actions of individuals, just like is happening here.

Which is what you're doing...?

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 06:11 PM
Which is what you're doing...?

I'm point out how ridiculous it is by showing what it sounds like when applied to whites.

tredigs
10-03-2017, 06:24 PM
You literally just made my point. You call white criminals outliers, but black criminals are outliers are well. Either in percentages or gross numbers, whites are FAR more criminally inclined than Asians. Gun owners are far more likely to have their firearm used on someone living in the home than on a criminal. According to this thread, those criminals are not individuals who made their own choices, but a product of the pervasisve, gun obssessed, violent white culture.
Please stop it. For one, I did not call white criminals outliers or anything else, just the mass murders you mentioned. This is a point of contention for you? You're making an absurd, illogical point.

Some facts: Whites comprise nearly 65% of the US population, Blacks 12% (Asians ~5%). However, 52% of ALL homicides (roughly 15 THOUSAND a year on average) were committed by blacks. And 93% of that was black on black. That's not a situation of murders being an outlier. That is a massive, disgusting problem that one race in particular is leading the charge on. They - without question - need to do a ton more to help themselves, because they can not rely on anyone else to do it for them.

tredigs
10-03-2017, 06:30 PM
It's a sad time when taking the stand that members of a society should raise their own children (and pointing out that one group in particular is more likely not to do so than vice versa) is met with so much scorn. It's disgusting, actually.

mngopher35
10-03-2017, 06:39 PM
Please stop it. For one, I did not call white criminals outliers or anything else, just the mass murders you mentioned. This is a point of contention for you? You're making an absurd, illogical point.

Some facts: Whites comprise nearly 65% of the US population, Blacks 12% (Asians ~5%). However, 52% of ALL homicides (roughly 15 THOUSAND a year on average) were committed by blacks. And 93% of that was black on black. That's not a situation of murders being an outlier. That is a massive, disgusting problem that one race in particular is leading the charge on. They - without question - need to do a ton more to help themselves, because they can not rely on anyone else to do it for them.

A culture that results from slavery, poverty, racism, etc. etc. due to many injustices over our history. Agreed?

It's possible that if races were swapped and put in a similar situation the numbers might be reversed no? So the reality might be that BECAUSE of all the injustice throughout our history and even today this is now the black culture as a result.

Seems like that's probably why they are protesting injustices to help said culture...

tredigs
10-03-2017, 06:53 PM
A culture that results from slavery, poverty, racism, etc. etc. due to many injustices over our history. Agreed?

It's possible that if races were swapped and put in a similar situation the numbers might be reversed no? So the reality might be that BECAUSE of all the injustice throughout our history and even today this is now the black culture as a result.

Seems like that's probably why they are protesting injustices to help said culture...

There is no question that being born black is getting the short end of the stick in this society (though nothing close to what their granparents and earlier had to deal with), but that is their reality. Stacking the deck even further against your own children is an epidemic, though, and it is FAR worse in the black community right now then ever before. Why should we ignore that fact and still try to blame it all on the nation's past transgressions (and granted - yes, some are clearly still going on, but it is far and few between compared to the past). Not raising your child is failing your own race and setting it up for failure. And again - never worse than present day.

Jamiecballer
10-03-2017, 07:02 PM
We are all equals. If only my 5'9 white *** wanted it more I'd be in the leagueYour act is tired.

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Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 07:03 PM
What does kneeling do? It's some stupid action that serves no purpose. What has Colin honestly achieved in the past year? There is no dialogue because no one is actually doing this on a respectful level that can be taken with aptitude. I think Warriors screwed up big time not going to the White House. They took it as a "Us vs Trump" thing instead of a "How can we get our message across in the one office that can probably promote that?"

It started a dialogue. We're talking about Kaepernick, black inequality, etc on an NBA forum during pre-season for goodness sakes. Things don't change overnight. It was 100 years after emancipation that Rosa Parks sat in the front of a bus. And I'm sure people at the time were saying "what does sitting in the front of a bus accomplish?"


Oh, and as for the "they shoulda went to the White House to get our message across" thing....,have you noticed what our president does? He'll tell you what you want to hear and then do nothing about it. He's already made promises to the black community that he never intended to keep. The guy's a ****ing conman. No good would come from that meeting.

Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 07:04 PM
Blacks aren't the only impoverished race in this world. Let's stop trying to act as if being Asian is any different or as if whites are all born with a silver spoon. My grandparents told me stories of how the Japanese used to invade their homes, **** in their pots and pans, rape the housewives and forced the husbands to watch, etc., Have blacks been treated the worst in American history? Yeah. But those days are long gone. Let's talk about now and how the culture hasn't changed with the victim mentality.

I haven't seen that many whites or asians killed lately by law enforcement. I know it happens, too, but not nearly in the same scale.

IndyRealist
10-03-2017, 07:19 PM
Please stop it. For one, I did not call white criminals outliers or anything else, just the mass murders you mentioned. This is a point of contention for you? You're making an absurd, illogical point.

Some facts: Whites comprise nearly 65% of the US population, Blacks 12% (Asians ~5%). However, 52% of ALL homicides (roughly 15 THOUSAND a year on average) were committed by blacks. And 93% of that was black on black. That's not a situation of murders being an outlier. That is a massive, disgusting problem that one race in particular is leading the charge on. They - without question - need to do a ton more to help themselves, because they can not rely on anyone else to do it for them.

The 2013 FBI Uniform Crime Report, a compilation of annual crime statistics, also shows similar data: 83 percent of white victims were killed by white offenders; 90 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders; 14 percent of white victims were killed by black offenders; and 7.6 percent of black victims were killed by white offenders.

Is white on white crime a cultural problem as well?

mngopher35
10-03-2017, 07:20 PM
There is no question that being born black is getting the short end of the stick in this society (though nothing close to what their granparents and earlier had to deal with), but that is their reality. Stacking the deck even further against your own children is an epidemic, though, and it is FAR worse in the black community right now then ever before. Why should we ignore that fact and still try to blame it all on the nation's past transgressions (and granted - yes, some are clearly still going on, but it is far and few between compared to the past). Not raising your child is failing your own race and setting it up for failure. And again - never worse than present day.

It doesn't ALL need to be blamed on that but it's the biggest issue and reason we have this problem.

I agree it is clearly better today but that doesn't just make things good either. You seem to get even if less there are still some issues today and we need to still work on getting better. Throughout history that is clearly the biggest issue or reason they "are on the short end of the stick" etc. so why wouldn't we start there? You can't just get a little better as a society then start blaming the victims in the situation.

That doesn't mean your point doesn't have validity either as we do agree there is some internal work to do within said cultures. It just doesn't change that we absolutely need to work towards stopping the injustices/racism as much as possible especially within our laws/justice system (dream being gone completely but nothing in life is perfect). These protests are because we aren't doing good enough. It's probably also because we seem to be taking steps backwards with Trump and some rhetoric out there tbh, things just seem to be getting a little more divisive all around right now which is only furthering the movement.

Saddletramp
10-03-2017, 07:21 PM
It's a sad time when taking the stand that members of a society should raise their own children (and pointing out that one group in particular is more likely not to do so than vice versa) is met with so much scorn. It's disgusting, actually.

Yeah, equally disgusting as having a conversation about one thing, and it's hijacked into a discussion about something else. Unless black people are being murdered by the police and treated unfairly solely due to having (on average) ****** fathers.


I simply can't fathom living in a country where ~60% of the population might've owned my great, great grandfather and try to remind me of that fact via statues and flags on a daily basis while also locking me up while they get a slap on the wrist for the same offense.

ewing
10-03-2017, 07:23 PM
Maybe the broken home problem is caused by being looked down upon and being oppressed for centuries?

Like I said earlier, I don't know how I would feel if I were born a black man in our current generation and I don't want to start pointing fingers at how they should fix their own problems before we fix our problems with them.

People are more likely bad decisions when they have few option and often they carry greater consequences. Racism, the justice system, decreased upward mobility in the last couple generations in general are all factors and certainly ones that shouldn't be dismissed but I don't think that means that we live in state that treats African Americans like Jews in Nazi Germany. Things need to change and people need to make good decisions. I think you and tregs are both a little too strong on your opinion


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FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 09:13 PM
The most racist people I know are Asian. They absolutely judge an entire culture based on the actions of individuals, just like is happening here.

I live in NYC. Growing up, the most racist individuals were blacks. Always called every Asian "Jackie Chan" or "Bruce Lee." They would imitate karate moves and slant their eyes. A few whites did it too but it was the majority, black guy. Hispanics are probably the least racist out there but from my OWN personal experience as a child, it was primarily blacks. Now? I don't know. People hide it so well.

ewing
10-03-2017, 10:27 PM
I live in NYC. Growing up, the most racist individuals were blacks. Always called every Asian "Jackie Chan" or "Bruce Lee." They would imitate karate moves and slant their eyes. A few whites did it too but it was the majority, black guy. Hispanics are probably the least racist out there but from my OWN personal experience as a child, it was primarily blacks. Now? I don't know. People hide it so well.

The most racist people I encountered growing up were old white men. My mom used to sit old people and she got work bc people they didn't want a black taking care of them and they weren't shy about it. They were embarrassed enough without a black lady being the person who had to baby sit them.


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Vinylman
10-04-2017, 08:07 AM
Then you, culturally, are responsible for Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazynski, Columbine, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas. White culture produced these monsters, with your obsession with guns and violence. White people need to hold themselves accountable for and fix their community.

See how stupid that sounds when people are saying it about you?


it is only stupid when you say it and don't quantify it... the rates in different communities are there ...

does there need to be improvement in every community... sure

Are some in WAY worse shape... its self evident by the statistics

Vinylman
10-04-2017, 08:15 AM
A culture that results from slavery, poverty, racism, etc. etc. due to many injustices over our history. Agreed?

It's possible that if races were swapped and put in a similar situation the numbers might be reversed no? So the reality might be that BECAUSE of all the injustice throughout our history and even today this is now the black culture as a result.

Seems like that's probably why they are protesting injustices to help said culture...

except as was pointed out earlier ... it is getting worse ... single family households are increasing... not declining...

the numbers are going the wrong way... how do you explain that?


the historical disadvantages are definitely there but there has been unbelievable amounts of government spending to try and rectify the situation only to realize worse results... time for some personal responsibility

Vinylman
10-04-2017, 08:19 AM
The 2013 FBI Uniform Crime Report, a compilation of annual crime statistics, also shows similar data: 83 percent of white victims were killed by white offenders; 90 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders; 14 percent of white victims were killed by black offenders; and 7.6 percent of black victims were killed by white offenders.

Is white on white crime a cultural problem as well?

important statistics yet irrelevant when you don't assign volume as a percentage of each group...

context matters... other groups aren't killing their own communities at the same rates

Vinylman
10-04-2017, 08:21 AM
Yeah, equally disgusting as having a conversation about one thing, and it's hijacked into a discussion about something else. Unless black people are being murdered by the police and treated unfairly solely due to having (on average) ****** fathers.


I simply can't fathom living in a country where ~60% of the population might've owned my great, great grandfather and try to remind me of that fact via statues and flags on a daily basis while also locking me up while they get a slap on the wrist for the same offense.

60% of the population owned slaves? wow... that is a shocking statistic

what is your source?

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 10:04 AM
Maybe the broken home problem is caused by being looked down upon and being oppressed for centuries?

Like I said earlier, I don't know how I would feel if I were born a black man in our current generation and I don't want to start pointing fingers at how they should fix their own problems before we fix our problems with them.

when it comes to being a father, sorry, there have been (and are) MUCH worse plights than the African American community has ever endured. And those fathers stick with their families.

Obama himself called out black communities and their fathers abandonment. It's a REAL issue within their own community, that has literally zero to do with any outside factor. Being a father, is THE most important job a man will ever have the nanosecond he has a child. If you fail at it, circumstances don't matter.

African American men are abandoning their children and murdering their own at an exponentially higher rate than any other race in the United States. These are facts. And they must be addressed within their own community.

And damn straight, being born black already puts you in a corner. Generations of oppression. That has to, and has been, changing. The funny thing about progress, especially social, is that everyone wants the changes NOW. It took 2 centuries to get where we are, it will take time for things to get to where they need to be. Unfortunately, that means the current generation, and probably the next few, need to make sacrifices. Just like every oppressed population that got out of it in history did. And the oppressors themselves (whites), need to make sweeping changes as well, which means sacrifices.

FlashBolt
10-04-2017, 11:25 AM
Yeah, equally disgusting as having a conversation about one thing, and it's hijacked into a discussion about something else. Unless black people are being murdered by the police and treated unfairly solely due to having (on average) ****** fathers.


I simply can't fathom living in a country where ~60% of the population might've owned my great, great grandfather and try to remind me of that fact via statues and flags on a daily basis while also locking me up while they get a slap on the wrist for the same offense.

Woah woah woah, slow down there. That 60% is such a blatant lie I'm not sure where you got it from. Most estimates have it under 5%. Scholars pegged it around 3% but that was due to some locations have 5% while some states had 1%, etc., That 60% is such a lie dude. Which is why I think you're having some conflicting views.

valade16
10-04-2017, 12:03 PM
It's a sad time when taking the stand that members of a society should raise their own children (and pointing out that one group in particular is more likely not to do so than vice versa) is met with so much scorn. It's disgusting, actually.

I don't think anyone is meeting your contentions with scorn (certainly I'm not), we are saying that there's a reason many are not raising their own children in that community and it's systemic.

For instance, did you know the war on drugs was started by Nixon specifically to target African American communities (and hippies)? And this isn't me interpreting this, this is literally what the Aide of Nixon said:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people," former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman told Harper's writer Dan Baum for the April cover story published Tuesday.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."


So when you sit here and say the father's aren't raising their kids but don't question why that is, how can you be surprised when the government literally started a campaign to incarcerate black men.

Here's a chart of incarceration rates of African Americans:

https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/racial-disparities-3.png

Isn't it weird how there is a massive spike smack dab in the 70's when Nixon's domestic policy advisor admits they created laws designed to incarcerate black people? What a coincidence!

So now let's think about how that may have affected the black community. Well now all those black men are in prison instead of at home, so there are the single parents raising kids, kids now much less likely to get an education or stay out of trouble if the mom is both working and trying to take care of them. Now the men get home but because of their criminal records can't get jobs. So how do they make money? Well many go into selling drugs.

Now the cycle repeats, over and over until here we are.

You're right in that the community needs to take a long hard look at themselves, but let's not disregard the fact that they are in this position because the US government did everything they could to put them there.

valade16
10-04-2017, 12:07 PM
Also if anyone wants the actual number of people who owned slaves:

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/5-myths-about-slavery

Myth #3: Only a small percentage of Southerners owned slaves.

Closely related to Myth #2, the idea that the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were men of modest means rather than large plantation owners is usually used to reinforce the contention that the South wouldn’t have gone to war to protect slavery. The 1860 census shows that in the states that would soon secede from the Union, an average of more than 32 percent of white families owned slaves. Some states had far more slave owners (46 percent in South Carolina, 49 percent in Mississippi) while some had far less (20 percent in Arkansas).


Here's another source which again cites the 30-33% number (as well as 50% in some states)

http://www.civilwarcauses.org/stat.htm


So it was about 1/3 of southern families and 1/2 of southern families in the main slave states. No matter how you slice it, it was pretty prevalent.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 12:16 PM
I don't think anyone is meeting your contentions with scorn (certainly I'm not), we are saying that there's a reason many are not raising their own children in that community and it's systemic.

For instance, did you know the war on drugs was started by Nixon specifically to target African American communities (and hippies)? And this isn't me interpreting this, this is literally what the Aide of Nixon said:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people," former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman told Harper's writer Dan Baum for the April cover story published Tuesday.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities[/B]," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did[/B]."


So when you sit here and say the father's aren't raising their kids but don't question why that is, how can you be surprised when the government literally started a campaign to incarcerate black men.

Here's a chart of incarceration rates of African Americans:

https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/racial-disparities-3.png

Isn't it weird how there is a massive spike smack dab in the 70's when Nixon's domestic policy advisor admits they created laws designed to incarcerate black people? What a coincidence!

So now let's think about how that may have affected the black community. Well now all those black men are in prison instead of at home, so there are the single parents raising kids, kids now much less likely to get an education or stay out of trouble if the mom is both working and trying to take care of them. Now the men get home but because of their criminal records can't get jobs. So how do they make money? Well many go into selling drugs.

Now the cycle repeats, over and over until here we are.

You're right in that the community needs to take a long hard look at themselves, but let's not disregard the fact that they are in this position because the US government did everything they could to put them there.

Absolutely man. But those statistics need to start turning the other direction. Now. The black community must call out the men of their society. Obama did.

FlashBolt
10-04-2017, 12:17 PM
Also if anyone wants the actual number of people who owned slaves:

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/5-myths-about-slavery

Myth #3: Only a small percentage of Southerners owned slaves.

Closely related to Myth #2, the idea that the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were men of modest means rather than large plantation owners is usually used to reinforce the contention that the South wouldn’t have gone to war to protect slavery. The 1860 census shows that in the states that would soon secede from the Union, an average of more than 32 percent of white families owned slaves. Some states had far more slave owners (46 percent in South Carolina, 49 percent in Mississippi) while some had far less (20 percent in Arkansas).


Here's another source which again cites the 30-33% number (as well as 50% in some states)

http://www.civilwarcauses.org/stat.htm


So it was about 1/3 of southern families and 1/2 of southern families in the main slave states. No matter how you slice it, it was pretty prevalent.

That's the South - not America in its entirety.

valade16
10-04-2017, 12:59 PM
That's the South - not America in its entirety.

Obviously. Whoever said 60% was obviously using hyperbole, but his underlying point is still valid.

I wouldn't expect a black person to be any more OK with walking past a Confederate statue than a Jewish person walking by a Nazi one. Or a Kurd walking by a Saddam statue.

Vinylman
10-04-2017, 01:25 PM
Also if anyone wants the actual number of people who owned slaves:

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/5-myths-about-slavery

Myth #3: Only a small percentage of Southerners owned slaves.

Closely related to Myth #2, the idea that the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were men of modest means rather than large plantation owners is usually used to reinforce the contention that the South wouldn’t have gone to war to protect slavery. The 1860 census shows that in the states that would soon secede from the Union, an average of more than 32 percent of white families owned slaves. Some states had far more slave owners (46 percent in South Carolina, 49 percent in Mississippi) while some had far less (20 percent in Arkansas).


Here's another source which again cites the 30-33% number (as well as 50% in some states)

http://www.civilwarcauses.org/stat.htm


So it was about 1/3 of southern families and 1/2 of southern families in the main slave states. No matter how you slice it, it was pretty prevalent.

those percentages are for southern FAMILIES... not total population in the US... a lot different than 60% of people in the US were slave owners as was alleged above...

mngopher35
10-04-2017, 01:34 PM
A culture that results from slavery, poverty, racism, etc. etc. due to many injustices over our history. Agreed?

It's possible that if races were swapped and put in a similar situation the numbers might be reversed no? So the reality might be that BECAUSE of all the injustice throughout our history and even today this is now the black culture as a result.

Seems like that's probably why they are protesting injustices to help said culture...

except as was pointed out earlier ... it is getting worse ... single family households are increasing... not declining...

the numbers are going the wrong way... how do you explain that?


the historical disadvantages are definitely there but there has been unbelievable amounts of government spending to try and rectify the situation only to realize worse results... time for some personal responsibility

Isn't that true for more than just one race? Like isn't it also true that whites are also "going the wrong way" there?

It seems like that's where the country has been headed as a whole, they just started at a worse place due to everything mentioned.

Putting a bunch of money into something doesn't automatically mean you have done enough to actually solve the problem...

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 01:58 PM
Isn't that true for more than just one race? Like isn't it also true that whites are also "going the wrong way" there?

It seems like that's where the country has been headed as a whole, they just started at a worse place due to everything mentioned.

Putting a bunch of money into something doesn't automatically mean you have done enough to actually solve the problem...

it usually does the opposite...

Vinylman
10-04-2017, 02:23 PM
Isn't that true for more than just one race? Like isn't it also true that whites are also "going the wrong way" there?

It seems like that's where the country has been headed as a whole, they just started at a worse place due to everything mentioned.

Putting a bunch of money into something doesn't automatically mean you have done enough to actually solve the problem...

I agree on the last part about spending money... imo it has actually hurt the black community because hand outs don't teach someone how to be self sufficient and how to advance. It teaches them how to become dependent...

More dialogue between groups is needed to create change but it needs to be outcome based rather than grievance based... As someone who has run multiple companies I have always had one simple approach when it comes to change... be able to articulate the problem but more importantly have a solution to fix the problem... if you don't come to the table with solutions you ARE the problem

Change happens day by day and encounter by encounter... we all agree more than we disagree

In fact, I truly believe the issue that can unite this country is simple... hatred for the dubs and that ***** KD

Am I right :D

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 02:34 PM
I agree on the last part about spending money... imo it has actually hurt the black community because hand outs don't teach someone how to be self sufficient and how to advance. It teaches them how to become dependent...

More dialogue between groups is needed to create change but it needs to be outcome based rather than grievance based... As someone who has run multiple companies I have always had one simple approach when it comes to change... be able to articulate the problem but more importantly have a solution to fix the problem... if you don't come to the table with solutions you ARE the problem

Change happens day by day and encounter by encounter... we all agree more than we disagree

In fact, I truly believe the issue that can unite this country is simple... hatred for the dubs and that ***** KD

Am I right :D

the real way, is for everyone to just keep having sex with each other, until we are the same color.

The Gray Race :)

Saddletramp
10-04-2017, 02:36 PM
I totally **** the bed on that 60% being slave owners stat. I meant to say that that's probably the number that was ok with slavery in America at the time. Slavery wasn't a problem in America until the South gained ground on the manafacturing of the North. I'm sure a lot of people didn't like people owning people but it was also a business decision.

nastynice
10-04-2017, 02:46 PM
So you base your worldview on a patent lie, no wonder you're so out there. The truth is the exact inverse of you stated - every human being is born unequal. If you could ever prove that two people were born entirely equal, in any meaningful sense of the word, it would be one of the rarest instances in history.

We are all born inherently equal. We all excel in different things, we all struggle in diff things.

It was written...

nastynice
10-04-2017, 02:50 PM
the real way, is for everyone to just keep having sex with each other, until we are the same color.

The Gray Race :)

Gray?

The middle ground is brown. We're already where everyone's tryina get to :)

#brownsupremacy #brownieforpresident :)

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 02:55 PM
Gray?

The middle ground is brown. We're already where everyone's tryina get to :)

#brownsupremacy #brownieforpresident :)

it's a reference for Vinylman..

also, it simply means the Gray race, instead of Black/White

valade16
10-04-2017, 02:59 PM
the real way, is for everyone to just keep having sex with each other, until we are the same color.

The Gray Race :)

You mean goobacks?

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 03:07 PM
You mean goobacks?

huh?

nastynice
10-04-2017, 03:25 PM
Tredigs is spot on in this discussion. Black people need to realize that the issue is within their own culture and glorifying the victim mentality rather than the "I can do it without being a victim" spirit. I mean, look at the Asian culture around cities. You rarely find any issues regarding them and it's because they understand what they have to do. Canada Toronto and Vancouver has exploded in home prices. Asians are dominating the field across many industries despite not so long ago, being frowned upon for their "communist" ideals and also, the hate they generally received due to WWII. Nowadays, you find Japanese culture strong and prevalent in many neighborhoods. This "I am a victim because I am black" is why blacks haven't progressed at the rate of others. I'm specifically referring to BLACK Americans. African immigrants are some of the hardest working people I've ever met. That just proves it to me that there is a culture among BLACK Americans that ignores values that promote self-sustainability.

People wonder why Trump won.. and this is precisely why. While most people focus on the issues that aren't going to change or improve their lives, they ignore the aspect of having a well-grown family that advocates being a model citizen. No one talks about blacks not investing in their own communities. You're telling me that if all the black celebrities and athletes came together to make Comptom or Chicago a safer place, it wouldn't make a huge impact? No one does it. We've been hearing about Chiraq for almost decades now but people are more focused on the few incidental deaths in which there are arguments that warrant a shooting but ended horribly? My uncle was a police officer for the NYPD for over two decades. They don't racially profile but everyone in that police department knew that they were more at risk when they were dealing with a black American. it's not racism as much as it is being a statistic. The issue should be, stop carrying your weapons illegally so cops don't have to take that necessary precaution. If statistics show me that blacks are 5x more likely to shoot an officer than a white individual, what do you think everyone's initial thought would be?

It's funny because I think that Trump will now win a 2nd term because people are focused on the wrong issues that have been pissing off the majority of Americans. No one cares about your BLM movement and knee on the ground. It's a false narrative by individuals who refuse to help their own community and take responsibility. If police stop shooting blacks 100%, how does that stop black communities that are struggling? I feel bad that these NFL players and related personnel are all guilted into joining this hilarious kneel cause. You can tell a bunch of them are uncomfrotable doing it but don't want to be bullied in by those who want to take a knee.. sad environment to be in.

strongly disagree with the tone here. See, there is something different about the black community in the US vs simple economics and poverty. This fatherless home thing, this is a symptom of something that started back very long ago. We had GENERATION after GENERATION of human beings being separated from family and being sent to other cities and states. We had generations of blacks in this country raised without parents. The effect of this cannot be overstated. This is such a core principle not just within humanity, but within ALL life. Even animals operate this way. Parent teaches offspring. You can't replace that.

We got a community that dealt with this as being normal for generations. Of course that disease will still persist.
I know giving blacks the right to vote meant everything became equal, but I'm not sure that's exactly how it works...

nastynice
10-04-2017, 03:29 PM
... if you don't come to the table with solutions you ARE the problem


or maybe you were just born in the wrong neighborhood.. :shrug:

valade16
10-04-2017, 03:34 PM
huh?

It's from South Park. Someone invents a time travel machine that allows people to go back to the past, so they come back to our time and start doing jobs for like .25 cents an hour because by putting that in a bank over hundreds of years they're families get rich in the future.

But all the people from the future have all interbred to such a degree there is only one race, called goobacks (the episode is a commentary on illegal immigration).

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 03:43 PM
It's from South Park. Someone invents a time travel machine that allows people to go back to the past, so they come back to our time and start doing jobs for like .25 cents an hour because by putting that in a bank over hundreds of years they're families get rich in the future.

But all the people from the future have all interbred to such a degree there is only one race, called goobacks (the episode is a commentary on illegal immigration).

haha, I haven't seen that. Sounds amazing

valade16
10-04-2017, 03:47 PM
haha, I haven't seen that. Sounds amazing

It's one of the better South park episodes. The townspeople try to defeat the goobacks by having a big gay orgy so their ancestors are never born and they disappear lol.

mngopher35
10-04-2017, 04:03 PM
I agree on the last part about spending money... imo it has actually hurt the black community because hand outs don't teach someone how to be self sufficient and how to advance. It teaches them how to become dependent...

More dialogue between groups is needed to create change but it needs to be outcome based rather than grievance based... As someone who has run multiple companies I have always had one simple approach when it comes to change... be able to articulate the problem but more importantly have a solution to fix the problem... if you don't come to the table with solutions you ARE the problem

Change happens day by day and encounter by encounter... we all agree more than we disagree

In fact, I truly believe the issue that can unite this country is simple... hatred for the dubs and that ***** KD

Am I right :D

Sure we do need to start looking for outcomes but as you said that should start through dialogue etc. to find the best solution. The key here and what these protests have clearly done imo is get this as a talked about issue across our country, even on an NBA forum. We are talking about the issues right now and it is related to all these protests I would say, Silver didn't just start thinking about the anthem randomly.

I think most people can agree on some of the things that need to be done like better police training (specifics on that will have to go to people who have studied/knowledge but key is to move away from brutality/violence) and holding guilty officers accountable (like if a man tells a cop he has a gun while in his car with his family said cop can't just shoot him without major consequences). Change will happen when enough people fight for it though and that seems to be happening with awareness/attention being brought to the issue via said protests and leading to discussions.

Lol ya I think everyone but warriors fans can unite on that one!

Hawkeye15
10-04-2017, 04:06 PM
It's one of the better South park episodes. The townspeople try to defeat the goobacks by having a big gay orgy so their ancestors are never born and they disappear lol.

I love Parker and Stone.

SteBO
10-04-2017, 05:41 PM
The issues brought up here in regards to the black community are factual, but they aren’t race specific (white on white crime is a thing, and you’d be a flaming idiot to think white fathers haven’t abandoned their kids/families). Where I draw a line is when these are used as a deflect tactic to deviate away from the root issue of systematic oppression.

A %ge of black people don’t help themselves, and it’s those who former President Obama has called out, but that doesn’t offset the fact that this country still has a ways to go. Kaep’s actions were for the purpose of what’s happening in this thread right now....dialogue. And I for one am glad this thread has turned out to be as open and peaceful as it has.

The NBA is gonna be hit with this wave soon, but I genuinely don’t think it’s gonna be nearly the factor it’s been for the NFL. The NBA has a far better relationship with its players by comparison, and I think guys realize that the kneeling for the anthem would just be seen as following at this point. It’s one thing to bring attention, it’s another thing entirely to actually do something to bring about change, cuz that’s gonna impact your $$$.

C-ross12
10-04-2017, 07:54 PM
strongly disagree with the tone here. See, there is something different about the black community in the US vs simple economics and poverty. This fatherless home thing, this is a symptom of something that started back very long ago. We had GENERATION after GENERATION of human beings being separated from family and being sent to other cities and states. We had generations of blacks in this country raised without parents. The effect of this cannot be overstated. This is such a core principle not just within humanity, but within ALL life. Even animals operate this way. Parent teaches offspring. You can't replace that.

We got a community that dealt with this as being normal for generations. Of course that disease will still persist.
I know giving blacks the right to vote meant everything became equal, but I'm not sure that's exactly how it works...

I think the problem is black leadership. Can't we admit that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton need to go? Kids look up to idiot rappers as well. You're not going to succeed when your looking up to the victimization of Sharpton or the thug life of Ice Cube or Wiz Khalifa. The civil rights leaders we're absolutely correct in fighting for equality. But after the civil rights act of 1964, there should have been a shift in thinking. Instead of "How do we get equality?" it should have transitioned to "How do we put young blacks into a position to succeed with this new found equality?" It could have been unintentional, but most of those same leaders are still stuck in that first mindset.

Vinylman
10-05-2017, 06:11 AM
the real way, is for everyone to just keep having sex with each other, until we are the same color.

The Gray Race :)

Greg and the Boys are smiling

Vinylman
10-05-2017, 06:13 AM
or maybe you were just born in the wrong neighborhood.. :shrug:

The assuming going on with this post is priceless

Vinylman
10-05-2017, 06:26 AM
It's from South Park. Someone invents a time travel machine that allows people to go back to the past, so they come back to our time and start doing jobs for like .25 cents an hour because by putting that in a bank over hundreds of years they're families get rich in the future.

But all the people from the future have all interbred to such a degree there is only one race, called goobacks (the episode is a commentary on illegal immigration).

yeah... it is awesome... one of the most underrated shows ever...

Vinylman
10-05-2017, 06:35 AM
Sure we do need to start looking for outcomes but as you said that should start through dialogue etc. to find the best solution. The key here and what these protests have clearly done imo is get this as a talked about issue across our country, even on an NBA forum. We are talking about the issues right now and it is related to all these protests I would say, Silver didn't just start thinking about the anthem randomly.

I think most people can agree on some of the things that need to be done like better police training (specifics on that will have to go to people who have studied/knowledge but key is to move away from brutality/violence) and holding guilty officers accountable (like if a man tells a cop he has a gun while in his car with his family said cop can't just shoot him without major consequences). Change will happen when enough people fight for it though and that seems to be happening with awareness/attention being brought to the issue via said protests and leading to discussions.

Lol ya I think everyone but warriors fans can unite on that one!

I hope good comes out of this rather than people retreating from dialogue because it is uncomfortable and difficult.

As far as the police training goes I absolutely agree. The problem right now is unqualified people joining the ranks because it isn't as good of a career anymore and the good candidates choose other options. There are consequences for attacking institutions that don't always lead to better outcomes. I also believe the bad officers have to be held accountable and that most Americans also believe that... its just that the racists get cover when claims on good shoots are exposed as false... Candor is important from both sides and will do a lot to narrow the divide.

And yes.. we all shall unite against the Dubs and that big pussykitten KD

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 11:21 AM
The issues brought up here in regards to the black community are factual, but they aren’t race specific (white on white crime is a thing, and you’d be a flaming idiot to think white fathers haven’t abandoned their kids/families). Where I draw a line is when these are used as a deflect tactic to deviate away from the root issue of systematic oppression.

A %ge of black people don’t help themselves, and it’s those who former President Obama has called out, but that doesn’t offset the fact that this country still has a ways to go. Kaep’s actions were for the purpose of what’s happening in this thread right now....dialogue. And I for one am glad this thread has turned out to be as open and peaceful as it has.

The NBA is gonna be hit with this wave soon, but I genuinely don’t think it’s gonna be nearly the factor it’s been for the NFL. The NBA has a far better relationship with its players by comparison, and I think guys realize that the kneeling for the anthem would just be seen as following at this point. It’s one thing to bring attention, it’s another thing entirely to actually do something to bring about change, cuz that’s gonna impact your $$$.

as you absolutely should. They are 2 separate issues entirely. The rate of fatherless kids and black on black crime, are very different issues than the systematic oppression they have endured for 200 years in the US.

However, both must be pointed out when speaking about the positive progression of the African American community. They have minimal to do with each other though. One is a hard look in the mirror, the other is on the nation, and each and every person in this country.

tredigs
10-05-2017, 01:15 PM
as you absolutely should. They are 2 separate issues entirely. The rate of fatherless kids and black on black crime, are very different issues than the systematic oppression they have endured for 200 years in the US.

However, both must be pointed out when speaking about the positive progression of the African American community. They have minimal to do with each other though. One is a hard look in the mirror, the other is on the nation, and each and every person in this country.

Ding ding. The issues with this debate arise when we are not able to separate all 3 and simply consider it a direct result of causation and exonerate personal accountability. It's obviously complex and certainly not isolated to the black community, bit as a whole you have completely lost your way if 2/3rds of your children are now being raised in single parent households or foster care. That is an umprecendted amount in this nation's history (I would venture outside of certain war torn countries, in any country. But that is speculation).

The right way to frame that particular faction of the issue (again, imo bar none THE most integral part of continuing a productive society and setting our kids up for success), is to take race out of it, but start a massive nationwide debate about the importance of 2 parents raising their children. Take race out of it. And we need to start bringing massive shame to those who dont. I **** you not it feels more frowned upon in our society to be a smoker than a father who abandoned his child.

valade16
10-05-2017, 01:38 PM
large segments of the black community are single parents after we introduced laws specifically designed to incarcerate black males.

Shocking, Shocking I say!

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 01:38 PM
Ding ding. The issues with this debate arise when we are not able to separate all 3 and simply consider it a direct result of causation and exonerate personal accountability. It's obviously complex and certainly not isolated to the black community, bit as a whole you have completely lost your way if 2/3rds of your children are now being raised in single parent households or foster care. That is an umprecendted amount in this nation's history (I would venture outside of certain war torn countries, in any country. But that is speculation).

The right way to frame that particular faction of the issue (again, imo bar none THE most integral part of continuing a productive society and setting our kids up for success), is to take race out of it, but start a massive nationwide debate about the importance of 2 parents raising their children. Take race out of it. And we need to start bringing massive shame to those who dont. I **** you not it feels more frowned upon in our society to be a smoker than a father who abandoned his child.

I became a father 6 months ago, and I can tell you buddy, I have no tolerance for a dead beat Dad. None. Damn right I will judge you to death if I find out you don't take care of your kids.

Something changed in me the moment she was born. I can't imagine anyone not experiencing something similar when they have a kid. If they don't, well, something is wrong with them.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 01:43 PM
large segments of the black community are single parents after we introduced laws specifically designed to incarcerate black males.

Shocking, Shocking I say!

roughly 2000-2500 per 100,000 blacks are incarcerated. So just around 2-2.5% of the population. How do you explain the rest of the 2/3rds of the population from a single parent household?

FlashBolt
10-05-2017, 02:13 PM
large segments of the black community are single parents after we introduced laws specifically designed to incarcerate black males.

Shocking, Shocking I say!

Which law is in-tact these days that are specifically designed to incarcerate black males, though? If you're going to push that narrative, then you have to show conclusive legislation that proves this. Otherwise, it's just another excuse.

FlashBolt
10-05-2017, 02:15 PM
Ding ding. The issues with this debate arise when we are not able to separate all 3 and simply consider it a direct result of causation and exonerate personal accountability. It's obviously complex and certainly not isolated to the black community, bit as a whole you have completely lost your way if 2/3rds of your children are now being raised in single parent households or foster care. That is an umprecendted amount in this nation's history (I would venture outside of certain war torn countries, in any country. But that is speculation).

The right way to frame that particular faction of the issue (again, imo bar none THE most integral part of continuing a productive society and setting our kids up for success), is to take race out of it, but start a massive nationwide debate about the importance of 2 parents raising their children. Take race out of it. And we need to start bringing massive shame to those who dont. I **** you not it feels more frowned upon in our society to be a smoker than a father who abandoned his child.

Society cares more about whether or not Target lets transgenders into both bathrooms more than missing fathers and warzones in some black communities.. If you ask me, that's why it continuously gets ignored. No one wants to bring the truth up. If a black man brings it up, they are an Uncle Tom. If a white man brings it up, they are racists and have no idea what a black man goes through. So no one ends up giving a damn because society shames them.

valade16
10-05-2017, 02:43 PM
I can't quote but I'll address 2 posts:

First Hawkeye's:

2.5% of black people in the US are currently incarcerated, but men make up the majority of those incarcerations where has there's a fairly even split of women and men in the black community so that doubles the percentage right there.

But more importantly, the number of black people who have ever been incarcerated is far higher. Roughly 1/5 of all black people have a criminal record and 1/3 of black men will go to jail at some point in their lives.

Does it explain all the single parent households? Absolutely not. But it's a fairly significant portion.


Second Flashbolt:

Which law? Easy, all the war on drug laws are still on the books with the exception of marijuana in most places. Clinton actually enacted tougher laws on drug users.

One of the biggest laws was the disparity in sentencing for crack vs. cocaine. Despite being the same drug, crack carried a far harsher penalty than cocaine. Unsurprisingly, crack was primarily used in poor black neighborhoods and cocaine is used in white neighborhoods.

Guess what? crack still carries a longer prison sentence than cocaine.

http://crime-punishment.yoexpert.com/crime-punishment-general/why-are-crack-cocaine-sentences-longer-than-those-31970.html

The current ration is 18:1.

The unfortunate thing is, even after I show you the evidence and conclusively show it's not just an excuse, it likely won't change your opinion on iota.

HandsOnTheWheel
10-05-2017, 03:21 PM
Surprised this came from Kobe..


Kobe Bryant says if he were still playing today that he would kneel during the national anthem before NBA games.

Appearing on The Hollywood Reporter's Awards Chatter podcast on Wednesday, the retired Los Angeles Lakers star was asked what he would do during the anthem if he were still in the league and had a game tonight.

"Kneel," Bryant said during a rapid-fire question-and-answer portion of the podcast.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 03:26 PM
I can't quote but I'll address 2 posts:

First Hawkeye's:

2.5% of black people in the US are currently incarcerated, but men make up the majority of those incarcerations where has there's a fairly even split of women and men in the black community so that doubles the percentage right there.

But more importantly, the number of black people who have ever been incarcerated is far higher. Roughly 1/5 of all black people have a criminal record and 1/3 of black men will go to jail at some point in their lives.

Does it explain all the single parent households? Absolutely not. But it's a fairly significant portion.

.

remove the incarcerated from the equation entirely, and the number is still outlandish. It's a community issue, bit time. Obviously the cyclical revolving door of our prison system doesn't help anything, but it's still a HUGE problem.

I am not saying one thing doesn't have an effect on the other. But the rate of abandonment by black males in regards to their families, and their kids, needs to be addressed. Raising kids in 2 parent situations, is absolutely integral if they are to get out of the vicious cycle they are in. The crime against their own is another topic, it has plenty of relation, but there is absolutely context with that one..

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 03:27 PM
Surprised this came from Kobe..



Especially after the news that Michael Bennett's cause was complete BS. He literally came out and said weeks later that the cops were indeed justified after all in their force on him after at first shaking their hand and then calling them racists shortly afterwards. Surprised this wasn't reported by any media outlets.. on second thought not really.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?929663-Video-Bennett-admitted-cops-were-justified-then-later-falsely-claimed-racism

Kobe also said, this when asked what he would say to Trump if in front of him, which I think is a very good line:

"Focus on serving, not leading," Bryant said.

FlashBolt
10-05-2017, 03:32 PM
I can't quote but I'll address 2 posts:

First Hawkeye's:

2.5% of black people in the US are currently incarcerated, but men make up the majority of those incarcerations where has there's a fairly even split of women and men in the black community so that doubles the percentage right there.

But more importantly, the number of black people who have ever been incarcerated is far higher. Roughly 1/5 of all black people have a criminal record and 1/3 of black men will go to jail at some point in their lives.

Does it explain all the single parent households? Absolutely not. But it's a fairly significant portion.


Second Flashbolt:

Which law? Easy, all the war on drug laws are still on the books with the exception of marijuana in most places. Clinton actually enacted tougher laws on drug users.

One of the biggest laws was the disparity in sentencing for crack vs. cocaine. Despite being the same drug, crack carried a far harsher penalty than cocaine. Unsurprisingly, crack was primarily used in poor black neighborhoods and cocaine is used in white neighborhoods.

Guess what? crack still carries a longer prison sentence than cocaine.

http://crime-punishment.yoexpert.com/crime-punishment-general/why-are-crack-cocaine-sentences-longer-than-those-31970.html

The current ration is 18:1.

The unfortunate thing is, even after I show you the evidence and conclusively show it's not just an excuse, it likely won't change your opinion on iota.

I ask again: Where is the evidence that there are laws specifically targeting black men? You gave me a law that applies to not only black men but ALL citizens of United States.

HandsOnTheWheel
10-05-2017, 03:32 PM
Kobe also said, this when asked what he would say to Trump if in front of him, which I think is a very good line:

"Focus on serving, not leading," Bryant said.

Well that's stating the obvious, I just thought he had more smarts than taking a bold stance on such a complex, pressing issue.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 03:40 PM
Well that's stating the obvious, I just thought he had more smarts than taking a bold stance on such a complex, pressing issue.

Bryant is very smart. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to kneeling or standing. Kobe also knows he is one of the few players who could do it and get away with it.

FlashBolt
10-05-2017, 03:42 PM
Surprised this came from Kobe..

Something tells me Kobe said that so he can sit back on his chair and watch this mess unravel.

valade16
10-05-2017, 03:45 PM
To address Flashbolt saying the drug laws affect everyone so they can't be racist in intent, the guy who made the laws admitted they were done solely to target black people (and hippies):

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people," former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman told Harper's writer Dan Baum for the April cover story published Tuesday.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."


That was the Domestic Policy advisor to Nixon, who drafted the war on drug laws. So yes, those laws very much targeted black people.

FlashBolt
10-05-2017, 03:53 PM
To address Flashbolt saying the drug laws affect everyone so they can't be racist in intent, the guy who made the laws admitted they were done solely to target black people (and hippies):

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people," former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman told Harper's writer Dan Baum for the April cover story published Tuesday.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."


That was the Domestic Policy advisor to Nixon, who drafted the war on drug laws. So yes, those laws very much targeted black people.

That was over 50 years ago, dude. Which laws are prevalent today that specifically target blacks...

mngopher35
10-05-2017, 03:57 PM
I ask again: Where is the evidence that there are laws specifically targeting black men? You gave me a law that applies to not only black men but ALL citizens of United States.

He gave you laws that have disproportionately been used against the black community by law enforcement. In fact we have heard from one of Nixons aides what the war on drugs was actually intended to do. Hint it was not to hold the law against all of the united states equally but instead to target people of color etc.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

As stated much of those laws still apply in this country despite it being clearly stated why it was done initially (and disproportionately against African Americans compared to Whites) . It was intended to target African Americans and DISRUPT THE CULTURE. Go figure that's what we are talking about lol. Sure enough 50 years later and people want to just ignore that many of these laws/issues are still in tact while simply trying to blame the victims of the situation for their culture (again which was the target of the laws in the first place).

mngopher35
10-05-2017, 03:58 PM
That was over 50 years ago, dude. Which laws are prevalent today that specifically target blacks...

They use said laws to target blacks is the entire point, it was even admitted that was the reason for creating/implementing them...

valade16
10-05-2017, 03:58 PM
^ I just told you Flashbolt. Those drug laws are still in effect. They are the same laws.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 04:12 PM
That was over 50 years ago, dude. Which laws are prevalent today that specifically target blacks...

yeah but the laws are still in effect. The war on drugs was literally started to incarcerate blacks (and anti-war folk), and those same laws are still followed today for the most part. Obviously marijuana laws are relaxing, but the laws stand for the most part. It's STILL happening in black neighborhoods. Every single day.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 04:19 PM
He gave you laws that have disproportionately been used against the black community by law enforcement. In fact we have heard from one of Nixons aides what the war on drugs was actually intended to do. Hint it was not to hold the law against all of the united states equally but instead to target people of color etc.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

As stated much of those laws still apply in this country despite it being clearly stated why it was done initially (and disproportionately against African Americans compared to Whites) . It was intended to target African Americans and DISRUPT THE CULTURE. Go figure that's what we are talking about lol. Sure enough 50 years later and people want to just ignore that many of these laws/issues are still in tact while simply trying to blame the victims of the situation for their culture (again which was the target of the laws in the first place).

right. And what is left out is, once you go to prison, you enter (most times) a cyclical life of prison. It becomes nearly impossible to get a job, impossible to be approved for loans, or simple benefits we all enjoy. The time you spend in jail, many times you are charged fees while inside, and when you can't pay them after leaving jail, guess what happens? That's right, you go back to jail for breach of contract essentially.

I have been spending pages bringing up the fact that the black community must address a HUGE issue, in regards to men taking responsibility for their offspring. But it has minimal to do with the fact that blacks have been totally ****ed over for 200 years in this country. Slavery, Jim Crowe laws, social security laws, home financing rules put in place directed straight at keeping families broken, regulations on agriculture (where most blacks worked in the early part of last century), the war on drugs, etc. I straight up want a father to be a father, and I would love for them to stop killing each other at such a joke of a rate. But we can't pretend being born black doesn't immediately put you at a disadvantage in this country, even to this day.

valade16
10-05-2017, 04:22 PM
^ Did you ever see the Last Week Tonight episode on Privatized Prisons? One prison created flyers to investors in their company and actually touted the "recidivism" rate of their inmates lol.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 04:26 PM
^ Did you ever see the Last Week Tonight episode on Privatized Prisons? One prison created flyers to investors in their company and actually touted the "recidivism" rate of their inmates lol.

I did not. Private prisons have a few benefits, but their negatives far outweigh the positives. To me at least..

FlashBolt
10-05-2017, 04:38 PM
^ I just told you Flashbolt. Those drug laws are still in effect. They are the same laws.

I see that. Thanks for confirming. But also, are cops planting those drugs on them? I mean, why is this still a problem? if you know you can get locked up, why do it? I would be doing everything in my power to make sure I don't have it around me.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2017, 04:54 PM
I see that. Thanks for confirming. But also, are cops planting those drugs on them? I mean, why is this still a problem? if you know you can get locked up, why do it? I would be doing everything in my power to make sure I don't have it around me.

they targeted substances known to be in the black (and hippee) communities, and criminalized the ever living **** out of them. That is literally the same thing as criminalizing a rat tail in a trailer park. You will nail everyone.

IndyRealist
10-05-2017, 05:51 PM
I see that. Thanks for confirming. But also, are cops planting those drugs on them? I mean, why is this still a problem? if you know you can get locked up, why do it? I would be doing everything in my power to make sure I don't have it around me.

What people are saying is that those drugs are treated differently than other drugs BECAUSE they are used by those communities. It's like how crack gets a substantially higher prison sentence than cocaine, when they are essentially the same drug. I broke up the quotes so people don't have to read all of it to get the gist.


Crack and cocaine may be nearly identical on a molecular level, but people who are charged with possession of just 1 gram of crack are given the same sentence as those found in possession of 18 grams of cocaine.

This 18:1 sentencing disparity is actually an improvement from the previous sentencing gulf of 100:1, thanks to the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010, but as new research shows, any disparity unfairly targets crack users, who are more likely to be black, low-income and less educated.


In 2009, the U.S. Sentencing Commission introduced figures stating that no class of drug is as racially skewed as crack in terms of numbers of offenses. According to the data, 79% of 5,669 sentenced crack offenders were black, while only 10% were white and 10% were Hispanic. The figures for the 6,020 powder cocaine convictions, in contrast, were as follows: 17% of these offenders were white, 28% were black, and 53% were Hispanic. Combined with a 115-month average imprisonment for crack offenses, compared with an average of 87 months for cocaine offenses, the sentencing disparity results in more African-Americans spending more time in the prison system


In the three decades prior to the passing of the Fair Sentencing Act, those who were arrested for possessing crack cocaine faced much more severe penalties than those in possession of powder cocaine. While a person found with five grams of crack cocaine faced a five-year mandatory minimum prison sentence, a person holding powder cocaine could receive the same sentence only if he or she held five hundred grams. Similarly, those carrying ten grams of crack cocaine faced a ten-year mandatory sentence, while possession of one thousand grams of powder cocaine was required for the same sentence to be imposed.

HandsOnTheWheel
10-05-2017, 06:07 PM
Bryant is very smart. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to kneeling or standing. Kobe also knows he is one of the few players who could do it and get away with it.

I don't disagree with you though it seems easy to say in the position he's in.

SoulBrotha
10-05-2017, 06:46 PM
I don't disagree with you though it seems easy to say in the position he's in.

Kobe's just throwing Mamba challenges out everywhere lol

cmellofan15
10-06-2017, 08:08 AM
That was over 50 years ago, dude. Which laws are prevalent today that specifically target blacks...

LMAO the real question is at what point will you not blame black people? You make my dude Hawkeye (self professed conservative) look like freaking Bernie Sanders :laugh2:

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 09:07 AM
I don't disagree with you though it seems easy to say in the position he's in.

yeah, that's fair enough dude

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 09:09 AM
What people are saying is that those drugs are treated differently than other drugs BECAUSE they are used by those communities. It's like how crack gets a substantially higher prison sentence than cocaine, when they are essentially the same drug. I broke up the quotes so people don't have to read all of it to get the gist.

yes! Cocaine, was a white collar, white person drug. Crack, literally the exact same ****ing thing, was a drug used in the black community. Nixon's administration went straight after the 2 substances that blacks, and anti-war folk used, and criminalized the **** out of them.

They have even admitted it. I can't believe there is even a question about this?

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 09:10 AM
LMAO the real question is at what point will you not blame black people? You make my dude Hawkeye (self professed conservative) look like freaking Bernie Sanders :laugh2:

I'm in the middle fool!

mike_noodles
10-06-2017, 09:54 AM
yes! Cocaine, was a white collar, white person drug. Crack, literally the exact same ****ing thing, was a drug used in the black community. Nixon's administration went straight after the 2 substances that blacks, and anti-war folk used, and criminalized the **** out of them.

They have even admitted it. I can't believe there is even a question about this?

Baking soda and water make it worth all of the extra time. Also, I believe there is plenty of evidence that crack was brought into those communities in the first place and then continually supplied by the CIA.

So yeah, the government has a long, long history of doing everything they can to demonize those communities. Gonna take a long time to fix these problems. And just like any other problem, the cliche is, first step is to admit the problem. Too many people refuse to admit there's a problem.

IndyRealist
10-06-2017, 11:32 AM
I'm in the middle fool!

See I think most reasonable people are. I'm a social liberal/fiscal conservative, which puts me smack in the middle. Literally no party even comes close to representing my values. Both parties pander to extremists nowadays because the nutjobs are the ones who donate massive amounts of money. And they know that the majority of moderates will be so disgusted with both candidates they just won't vote, making the extremist vote count for more. People who cheer for one party or another and spout the party platform on everything aren't thinking for themselves.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 11:39 AM
See I think most reasonable people are. I'm a social liberal/fiscal conservative, which puts me smack in the middle. Literally no party even comes close to representing my values. Both parties pander to extremists nowadays because the nutjobs are the ones who donate massive amounts of money. And they know that the majority of moderates will be so disgusted with both candidates they just won't vote, making the extremist vote count for more. People who cheer for one party or another and spout the party platform on everything aren't thinking for themselves.

word for word how I feel dude.

Socially liberal, fiscally conservative describes me as well.

nastynice
10-06-2017, 12:09 PM
I think the problem is black leadership. Can't we admit that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton need to go? Kids look up to idiot rappers as well. You're not going to succeed when your looking up to the victimization of Sharpton or the thug life of Ice Cube or Wiz Khalifa. The civil rights leaders we're absolutely correct in fighting for equality. But after the civil rights act of 1964, there should have been a shift in thinking. Instead of "How do we get equality?" it should have transitioned to "How do we put young blacks into a position to succeed with this new found equality?" It could have been unintentional, but most of those same leaders are still stuck in that first mindset.

Bro, you just don't get it.

People TRY to rise. People TRY to band together. It's hard. And on top of that, the govt isn't on their side. Almost every grass root movement I know of has someone or another high up in jail for something. There's too much money to be made, too many businesses affected. Locking blacks up is a very profitable business which you have been duped into supporting. I know we are the country of freedom and equality, but our govt regularly destroys movements which ask for freedom and equality. It's nothing new, and it's nothing left in the past.

BLM may have made the news. But for every BLM there is 500 other grassroots organizations you ain't heard of

There is nothing wrong with sharpton or Jackson as a leader. To you, maybe, but to thousands of people who can SEE their govt dismiss their race, they SEE the citizens of this country. Did you see what happened in Green Bay the other day? How pathetic. Blacks are asking for equal treatment, and wether intended or not, an entire stadium full of people said I could give a **** about your rights. The same chumps that wave that flag around equality. Sad. When little kids see their country doing those things, believe me, the words of people like sharpton and Jackson can be very encouraging for that individual.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 12:25 PM
Bro, you just don't get it.

People TRY to rise. People TRY to band together. It's hard. And on top of that, the govt isn't on their side. Almost every grass root movement I know of has someone or another high up in jail for something. There's too much money to be made, too many businesses affected. Locking blacks up is a very profitable business which you have been duped into supporting. I know we are the country of freedom and equality, but our govt regularly destroys movements which ask for freedom and equality. It's nothing new, and it's nothing left in the past.

BLM may have made the news. But for every BLM there is 500 other grassroots organizations you ain't heard of

There is nothing wrong with sharpton or Jackson as a leader. To you, maybe, but to thousands of people who can SEE their govt dismiss their race, they SEE the citizens of this country. Did you see what happened in Green Bay the other day? How pathetic. Blacks are asking for equal treatment, and wether intended or not, an entire stadium full of people said I could give a **** about your rights. The same chumps that wave that flag around equality. Sad. When little kids see their country doing those things, believe me, the words of people like sharpton and Jackson can be very encouraging for that individual.

his point stands though. When Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson become involved in an issue, they are actually counterproductive entirely. Nobody respects them as black leaders.

Life is about opportunity. Always has been, always will be. Our job as a nation is to make sure the same opportunities are given to each child. But the black community absolutely needs to empower itself and take advantage of opportunities. Can't sit back and wait for change in this world, you have to go do everything in your power to make the change too.

valade16
10-06-2017, 01:25 PM
Can anyone name a black leader that wasn't vilified though?

C-ross12
10-06-2017, 02:10 PM
Can anyone name a black leader that wasn't vilified though?

Every leader is vilified. White or black. Clinton was, then Bush, then Obama, and now Trump.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 02:18 PM
Can anyone name a black leader that wasn't vilified though?

Obama is not vilified, for one. Complete idiots like Trump started the, "He's not an American" BS, and of course he went through all the partisan crap that every President does, but he was clearly immensely popular both here and across the world by and large (he came in with a 67% approval rating... which dipped while in office, but never close to the levels Trump is at), and that popularity has grown now that he's out of office and not subjected to partisan rhetoric from the media.

MLK of course was a trailblazer and faced massive backlash accordingly at the time (though a massive following as well), but ultimately his positive/powerful message changed the nation and he is probably one of the most respected Americans in our history.

A guy like Jesse Jackson is not on their level, and not even ****ing close. When you know exactly where a person will come down on every issue, and what they will say, it's a very bad sign. He is not taken seriously and frankly should not be.

valade16
10-06-2017, 02:23 PM
^ Obama is not vilified? In what reality are you living in to say that lol?

He is fully vilified by a large group of people in the country. Extreme conservatives vilified him to a degree rarely seen of others.

To put in perspective how vilified he is: the Senate is working on their roughly 50th attempt to repeal Obamacare simply because Obama signed it into law.

IndyRealist
10-06-2017, 02:24 PM
Obama is not vilified, for one. Complete idiots like Trump started the, "He's not an American" BS, and of course he went through all the partisan crap that every President does, but he was clearly immensely popular both here and across the world by and large (he came in with a 67% approval rating... which dipped while in office, but never close to the levels Trump is at), and that popularity has grown now that he's out of office and not subjected to partisan rhetoric from the media.

MLK of course was a trailblazer and faced massive backlash accordingly at the time (though a massive following as well), but ultimately his positive/powerful message changed the nation and he is probably one of the most respected Americans in our history.

A guy like Jesse Jackson is not on their level, and not even ****ing close. When you know exactly where a person will come down on every issue, and what they will say, it's a very bad sign. He is not taken seriously and frankly should not be.

Kellyanne Conway just went on CNN and said bump stocks are Obama's fault. Not the NRA lobbyists, not gun manufacturers, not conservative 2nd Amendment drumbeaters that couldn't wait to shout "Obama's coming for our guns!" everytime gun control was mentioned. I'd say that's pretty villified.

valade16
10-06-2017, 02:24 PM
MLK was so vilified he was shot dead for his beliefs. lol

C-ross12
10-06-2017, 02:35 PM
Bro, you just don't get it.

People TRY to rise. People TRY to band together. It's hard. And on top of that, the govt isn't on their side. Almost every grass root movement I know of has someone or another high up in jail for something. There's too much money to be made, too many businesses affected. Locking blacks up is a very profitable business which you have been duped into supporting. I know we are the country of freedom and equality, but our govt regularly destroys movements which ask for freedom and equality. It's nothing new, and it's nothing left in the past.

BLM may have made the news. But for every BLM there is 500 other grassroots organizations you ain't heard of

There is nothing wrong with sharpton or Jackson as a leader. To you, maybe, but to thousands of people who can SEE their govt dismiss their race, they SEE the citizens of this country. Did you see what happened in Green Bay the other day? How pathetic. Blacks are asking for equal treatment, and wether intended or not, an entire stadium full of people said I could give a **** about your rights. The same chumps that wave that flag around equality. Sad. When little kids see their country doing those things, believe me, the words of people like sharpton and Jackson can be very encouraging for that individual.

I disagree with your point on government being against black people. Their are government programs that are designed to solely help black people. To prove that the government is against black people, you have to provide laws that seek out to hurt black people. And please dont bring up the crack punishments, which is a reach at best. If this was 1963 then you'd have a huge argument. I'm serious, bring laws that prove your point, and if legit I'll agree with you.

BLM sucks. BLM protestors chanting “what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!” discredits that movement alone. BLM has also supported segregated dorms in a college is CA. MLK would be beside himself.

Sharpton has had tax issues in the past. No enough to dislike? Ok, how about his statements about how Obama shouldn't be questioned? These people are duds and should be treated as such.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 02:39 PM
Kellyanne Conway just went on CNN and said bump stocks are Obama's fault. Not the NRA lobbyists, not gun manufacturers, not conservative 2nd Amendment drumbeaters that couldn't wait to shout "Obama's coming for our guns!" everytime gun control was mentioned. I'd say that's pretty villified.

And? Fairly silly comment. I'm talking about the nation/world as a whole.


MLK was so vilified he was shot dead for his beliefs. lol
I think I was pretty clear in the fact that he was a trailblazer and received massive backlash accordingly (yes to the point of being assassinated - he suffered the ultimate price for his message), but he also received massive praise and ultimately his message won and the nation changed accordingly. I really should not have had to repeat myself there.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 02:44 PM
Talk about a man who would be LOUD about the issues I am talking about here by the way. MLK. I can't imagine how sick he would be to see just how squandered his message has been for so much of the black community. And he would take a massive stand accordingly, I have no doubt about that. Something along the lines of recognizing the ongoing and current injustices, but to realize just how far they had come as being seen as equals and how now it is upon them to stand up and take action for themselves.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 04:08 PM
Can anyone name a black leader that wasn't vilified though?

maybe not, but it's easy to name leaders who are respected, and don't constantly cherrypick every situation for their agenda (which in JJ or AS case, became $$)

tredigs
10-06-2017, 04:19 PM
^ Obama is not vilified? In what reality are you living in to say that lol?

He is fully vilified by a large group of people in the country. Extreme conservatives vilified him to a degree rarely seen of others.

To put in perspective how vilified he is: the Senate is working on their roughly 50th attempt to repeal Obamacare simply because Obama signed it into law.

The reality where he entered the White House with one of the highest praise and highest approval ratings seen to date in US history despite a background in politics that in the past generally would not even allowed him the popularity to make it on the ballot, and the one where his approval rating continues to rise post retirement. The "simply because Obama signed it into law" comment shows a general lack of understanding of US politics and how divisive the health care bill that he signed is between fiscal conservatives and the left. It also shows a massive agenda on your part if you think it's simply trying to be repealed due to the fact that it was Obama's mission (also, every attempt to repeal it has failed despite a conservative majority in congress + Trump, so...).

IndyRealist
10-06-2017, 04:33 PM
And? Fairly silly comment. I'm talking about the nation/world as a whole.


Kellyanne Conway is a White House spokesperson, which I assume you know.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 04:39 PM
Kellyanne Conway is a White House spokesperson, which I assume you know.

Yes, a very polarizing/generally disliked person in an administration with the lowest approval rating in US history. That's not being "vilified", it's partisan BS rhetoric. Nonsense along those lines happen to every President and recently retired President.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 04:56 PM
everyone who has ever had 5 minutes of fame is "vilified".

When your own party/support group is bashing you, I think in politics, or something along the lines of Civil Rights leader, THEN you are probably vilified. Most blacks can't even stand Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton...

valade16
10-06-2017, 05:07 PM
The reality where he entered the White House with one of the highest praise and highest approval ratings seen to date in US history despite a background in politics that in the past generally would not even allowed him the popularity to make it on the ballot, and the one where his approval rating continues to rise post retirement. The "simply because Obama signed it into law" comment shows a general lack of understanding of US politics and how divisive the health care bill that he signed is between fiscal conservatives and the left. It also shows a massive agenda on your part if you think it's simply trying to be repealed due to the fact that it was Obama's mission (also, every attempt to repeal it has failed despite a conservative majority in congress + Trump, so...).

Yes he entered with a high approval rating as he was a relatively unknown person in the public eye, but you've actually proved my point. Shortly thereafter his approval rating went down and it has begun to rise after his Presidency because he is no longer engaged overtly in the issues.

As soon as he became a player on the national stage, he was vilified. The fact that you can't see that honestly makes me question what sources you choose to build your reality from.

I mean, the idea that people blamed Obama for everything was so prevalent it even started a freaking meme about it (thanks Obama)

If you persist in the belief that Obama wasn't vilified there is no point in continuing the conversation, we exist in different places, me in reality, and you wherever else you're residing.

valade16
10-06-2017, 05:13 PM
Did people all suddenly forget the "Thanks Obama" joke? That's how many people blamed him for every little thing, it became a freakin' joke!

Hawkeye15
10-06-2017, 05:33 PM
Did people all suddenly forget the "Thanks Obama" joke? That's how many people blamed him for every little thing, it became a freakin' joke!

Obama was a loved President. Just because social media has reached new heights during his tenure (the era of internet tough guys and media nobody cares about with all the opinions) doesn't mean he wasn't supported by more people than opposed him.

Obama will go down like Clinton did, someone even many conservatives appreciate, and all Democrats like. Far from Sharpton, and Jackson. I honestly am not sure how bringing up those 2 *** clowns even brought us to names like King and Obama..

valade16
10-06-2017, 05:41 PM
I'd phrase it like this: Among Democrats and Moderates Obama is and was a loved President. Among conservatives he is a hated President. Not many conservatives will ever appreciate him.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 06:28 PM
I'd phrase it like this: Among Democrats and Moderates Obama is and was a loved President. Among conservatives he is a hated President. Not many conservatives will ever appreciate him.

Well frankly not many conservatives have reason to appreciate him from a political standpoint. Though from a personal standpoint among conservatives I would imagine it is much more split. Like Bush, even many democrats agreed he was a likable person despite being diametrically opposed to many of his ideals and actions (specifically Afghanistan and Iraq). As for Obama's approval rating dropping once he became President, well, duh. Such is the nature of politics and a society that actively seeks wedge debates to divide us and continue to promote the 2 party system that benefits those in power so much (healthcare, gun rights, etc). That's why most Presidents since the 60's wind up at 45-55% approval ratings by the terms end; Trump being the only one to average in the 30's despite this generally being the highest approval rating time of ones Presidency. Obama was right in line with that at just under 50% through his time. This despite frankly having no particularly big time legislate success or positive wartime activity - which can boost a President's favorably hugely if America has a common cause - other than the highly divisive health care reform. Something I don't think has been a huge success for America to be honest.

The irony here is that the reality is that if President Obama was just another old white guy but had the exact same message and political experience, he would have had no shot in the world at beating out the higher ups of the Democratic machine. If that does not prove that the USA does not hold a racial prejudice as a whole, I'm not sure what could. The fact that his general favorability rating trended up after the partisan factor was removed just goes to show that in general he is revered. As a person I know I do.

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 06:36 PM
everyone who has ever had 5 minutes of fame is "vilified".

When your own party/support group is bashing you, I think in politics, or something along the lines of Civil Rights leader, THEN you are probably vilified. Most blacks can't even stand Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton...
Heeeellllll no. One of them was an FBI informant who help MLK get killed by the govt. And yes its public knowledge that all levels of the govt conspired to kill him. From the CIA, FBI, local and state, to even probably your old uncle charlie. But thats just another piece of american history swept under the rug

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 06:43 PM
Well frankly not many conservatives have reason to appreciate him from a political standpoint. Though from a personal standpoint among conservatives I would imagine it is much more split. Like Bush, even many democrats agreed he was a likable person despite being diametrically opposed to many of his ideals and actions (specifically Afghanistan and Iraq). As for Obama's approval rating dropping once he became President, well, duh. Such is the nature of politics and a society that actively seeks wedge debates to divide us and continue to promote the 2 party system that benefits those in power so much (healthcare, gun rights, etc). That's why most Presidents since the 60's wind up at 45-55% approval ratings by the terms end; Trump being the only one to average in the 30's despite this generally being the highest approval rating time of ones Presidency. Obama was right in line with that at just under 50% through his time. This despite frankly having no particularly big time legislate success or positive wartime activity - which can boost a President's favorably hugely if America has a common cause - other than the highly divisive health care reform. Something I don't think has been a huge success for America to be honest.

The irony here is that the reality is that if President Obama was just another old white guy but had the exact same message and political experience, he would have had no shot in the world at beating out the higher ups of the Democratic machine. If that does not prove that the USA does not hold a racial prejudice as a whole, I'm not sure what could. The fact that his general favorability rating trended up after the partisan factor was removed just goes to show that in general he is revered. As a person I know I do.

You come off as one of those people who like to talk intelligent but seem very disconnected from reality. Thats you Ben Carson?

tredigs
10-06-2017, 06:50 PM
You come off as one of those people who like to talk intelligent but seem very disconnected from reality. Thats you Ben Carson?

I studied politics and follow the realities of it very closely.

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 06:53 PM
I studied politics and follow the realities of it very closely.

So going back to the topic, would you be upset if players knelt? Or would it leave such a sour taste in your mouth that you would stop watching the nba

valade16
10-06-2017, 06:54 PM
I think you have a severe disconnect if you think that conservatives disagree with his policies but respect or admire him as a person. Polls showed that 2/3 believed he was born outside the US. Even polls about Michelle Obama show the majority of conservatives had an unfavorable opinion of her.

It is telling that Hillary lost largely on a platform of continuing Obama's policies to Trump, who steamrolled through the GOP with his anti-Obama (among others) rhetoric.

If you ranked all the Democratic Presidents of modern history and had Conservatives rank them, Obama would likely rank at the very bottom (to be fair he'd be ahead of Clinton if she had won).

tredigs
10-06-2017, 06:57 PM
So going back to the topic, would you be upset if players knelt? Or would it leave such a sour taste in your mouth that you would stop watching the nba

I could literally not care less about any topic then whether the players choose to kneel or not, but I am all in favor of them doing so if they think it benefits society or starts a positive message.

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 07:02 PM
I could literally not care less about any topic then whether the players choose to kneel or not, but I am all in favor of them doing so if they think it benefits society or starts a positive message.

Progress!

valade16
10-06-2017, 07:06 PM
I don't think tredigs expressed any animosity or resistance to players kneeling previously.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 07:09 PM
I think you have a severe disconnect if you think that conservatives disagree with his policies but respect or admire him as a person. Polls showed that 2/3 believed he was born outside the US. Even polls about Michelle Obama show the majority of conservatives had an unfavorable opinion of her.

It is telling that Hillary lost largely on a platform of continuing Obama's policies to Trump, who steamrolled through the GOP with his anti-Obama (among others) rhetoric.

If you ranked all the Democratic Presidents of modern history and had Conservatives rank them, Obama would likely rank at the very bottom (to be fair he'd be ahead of Clinton if she had won).
Lol it was definitely not close to 2/3rds of conservatives (there may have been some random weeks poll somewhere showed this after a hot-button report came out, but certainly not as any average), and regardless that does not even have to necessitate a hate towards him just because there were questions about his Kenyan born/living economist father who was not part of the family. It was entirely stupid and complete partisan nonsense created just in order to knock down a leading democratic candidate in hopes of their own success (I highly doubt any of those drubbing the issue actually believed it). If Trump had an absentee Russian father some idiots on the left could likely drum up similar questions in order to put questions into voters minds. Obama, by and large, was widely respected. And again, would have NEVER been a leading Presidential candidate unless he was in fact black. Sad thing is that his lack of political background opened the door for Trump. Hopefully it's a change that pays off in the long run though.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 07:12 PM
Progress!

No, you just clearly have not paid attention to a word I have said. Hence your broad/trolling comments and zero substance.

valade16
10-06-2017, 07:25 PM
Was there some level of people who wanted to vote for Obama because he was black and it would be historic to have a black president? Yes. But from his opposition his race was definitely a factor against him to the point where there were many articles and reports about the level of influence his race played in the vitriol against him and most political scientists agreed: it played a part.

I think you're dead wrong that his message only worked because of his race. Berbie sanders had an even more pronounced version of his message and he's the oldest, whitest candidate of them all and he nearly won. Evaluate of it.

His success was not because he was black. Again this goes back to the completely different realities we seem to be in. I don't know how it happened but it seems like people completely forgot about the first 2-3 years of Obama's presidency.

Obama was widely respected, he was also widely hated. Those are not mutually exclusive.

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 07:30 PM
I just like to save my valuable energy and not argue with people who think most conservative ( basically white people don't front) generally like Obama even though they oppose his views. Your real thought process showed there. Saying he was basically another old white president. Trump is president now lol Thats how much they respect obama

C-ross12
10-06-2017, 09:29 PM
I just like to save my valuable energy and not argue with people who think most conservative ( basically white people don't front) generally like Obama even though they oppose his views. Your real thought process showed there. Saying he was basically another old white president. Trump is president now lol Thats how much they respect obama

How ridiculous. How someone could turn Obama's good moral compass into a negative is telling.

likemystylez
10-06-2017, 10:07 PM
Yea, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. The ahk been representing since back in the day. Haha, he cool as hell, he can still ball

Honestly, I think nba players should get involved. This whole kaepernick kneeling, then trump calling out players and owners, then them responding. The indgredients are ripe, they got a chance to make a change here and maybe change the way our system views black America. Something's gotta change, what better opportunity.

Cuz take our tax money we worked for all year to help make billionaires richer, no biggie. But I'll be damned if you take our sports away from us

OH Please, seriously STFU about that garbage.

white people are killed by cops more often in similar situations, and black people kill cops 18 times as often as cops kill unarmed black people.

This crap about athletes protesting cops killing blacks was proven horse manuer back when the rams came out and were chanting "hands up dont shoot" to defend a guy who was proven to not have his hands up.

Besides most the players are doing this cuz its trendy at this point, how many of the players really read through the court transcripts of the cases they are protesting? They just hear cop kills black person and immediately decide america has a problem in how they see african americans....... they dont care about circumstances.

HandsOnTheWheel
10-06-2017, 10:13 PM
Lolz

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 10:31 PM
Tredigs I gotta apologize. Alot of what you said does make sense. Just don't agree with the Obama creating the precedent of people not qualified enough to become president when Reagan and Bush 2 take the cake. Yes race had a role in him getting elected but he was the best candidate available. I would go as far to say he might have been the best candidate we've had in the past couple decades but thats my personal opinion and I'm not even a huge fans of his. Also his approval rating went up after he left office simply because his predecessor is so terrible it aint even funny. Trump, Charlottesville, and many people in positions of power showing their true colors and saying bigoted things towards people of color should be proof enough that even though they say all the right things in public like they respect him yadadaadaa, they have very different views in private.
I take back the Ben Carson joke. Took it tooooo far. That one hurt me. Realized we're on the same side but just view it differently. My bad Brotha!

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 10:35 PM
OH Please, seriously STFU about that garbage.

white people are killed by cops more often in similar situations, and black people kill cops 18 times as often as cops kill unarmed black people.

This crap about athletes protesting cops killing blacks was proven horse manuer back when the rams came out and were chanting "hands up dont shoot" to defend a guy who was proven to not have his hands up.

Besides most the players are doing this cuz its trendy at this point, how many of the players really read through the court transcripts of the cases they are protesting? They just hear cop kills black person and immediately decide america has a problem in how they see african americans....... they dont care about circumstances.

Aye man this horse manure is here to stay until things change so enjoy the funk!

likemystylez
10-06-2017, 10:40 PM
Aye man this horse manure is here to stay until things change so enjoy the funk!

well hopefully we see them protesting the killing of a black person by another black person once in a while (Seeing as that is far more likely than a black killed by a cop).... but I guess the black lives that are taken by other black people dont matter quite as much and arent worth protesting for as much as a POS like mike brown.

SoulBrotha
10-06-2017, 11:01 PM
b
well hopefully we see them protesting the killing of a black person by another black person once in a while (Seeing as that is far more likely than a black killed by a cop).... but I guess the black lives that are taken by other black people dont matter quite as much and arent worth protesting for as much as a POS like mike brown.

lol good try. Black people kill black people the same way white people kill white people. Think its 92% black on black and 87% white on white (my numbers might be 1 or 2 percent off). And since white people are more then 50% of the gen population this makes them the most violent race in america! But no one uses this logic because its dumb and demeaning. These protests will continue to happen as long as people continue to justify the killings of unarmed colored people by public severvants.
RIP to the KID mike brown

likemystylez
10-06-2017, 11:19 PM
b

lol good try. Black people kill black people the same way white people kill white people. Think its 92% black on black and 87% white on white (my numbers might be 1 or 2 percent off). And since white people are more then 50% of the gen population this makes them the most violent race in america! But no one uses this logic because its dumb and demeaning. These protests will continue to happen as long as people continue to justify the killings of unarmed colored people by public severvants.
RIP to the KID mike brown

Just cuz they are unarmed doesnt make them innocent, and it doesnt mean they werent a threat to the police officer. We have trials where evidence is presented. Lets leave the trials to the people who see all the evidence??? seems reasonable.

Mike brown punched a police officer. there is evidence of that. you dont attack a police officer and expect to be found in the right. doesnt matter what race you are.

LOL- and blacks get away with murdering whites too yknow- Not sure if anyone has found the killer for Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman yet

ewing
10-07-2017, 06:26 AM
this **** is off the rails.

IndyRealist
10-07-2017, 02:23 PM
this **** is off the rails.

This has been off topic and super political for days. Surprised no one's moved it yet.

smith&wesson
10-07-2017, 03:26 PM
I don't understand the concept of taking a knee for the anthem. I understand a lot of people are discontent with the president I just don't get what taking a knee does ?

Like if enough athletes do it Trump gets impeached? Or if they keep doing it then Trump will just step down? Lol

What does it say to take a knee for the anthem ? "i'm pissed with the current leader so I'm taking a knee for the anthem ?" The anthem is not a song that represents the president it represents the country so again I don't understand the concept of disrespecting the entire nation to make a point about a president who is a puppet just like the ones before him and the ones that will come after.

IndyRealist
10-07-2017, 04:39 PM
I don't understand the concept of taking a knee for the anthem. I understand a lot of people are discontent with the president I just don't get what taking a knee does ?

Like if enough athletes do it Trump gets impeached? Or if they keep doing it then Trump will just step down? Lol

What does it say to take a knee for the anthem ? "i'm pissed with the current leader so I'm taking a knee for the anthem ?" The anthem is not a song that represents the president it represents the country so again I don't understand the concept of disrespecting the entire nation to make a point about a president who is a puppet just like the ones before him and the ones that will come after.

1) it raises awareness about an issue, as protests are supposed to do. Are we talking about it? Then it succeeded in that aspect.
2) it's not about Trump. That's where "taking a knee" has failed. People actually think this is protesting the President, or protesting America, or the military. That would be propaganda designed to deflect you from discussing the real issues. Players who are doing this have not done a good job conveying the message, and have let the opposition dictate the conversation.

Fun fact, Colin Kapernick used to sit for the anthem. He was told that was disrespectful to the country, and asked what he could do instead. He was told that kneeling was a sign of respect for fallen comrades by a former Green Beret, Nate Boyer. That's where "taking a knee" came from.

http://www.snopes.com/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/

mike_noodles
10-08-2017, 09:35 AM
An NHL player participated. That's good news.

oak2455
10-08-2017, 10:07 AM
As athletes , maybe instead of staying in the tunnel or taking a knee . Maybe , just maybe,take some time and work within the community :shrug:

smith&wesson
10-08-2017, 01:22 PM
1) it raises awareness about an issue, as protests are supposed to do. Are we talking about it? Then it succeeded in that aspect.
2) it's not about Trump. That's where "taking a knee" has failed. People actually think this is protesting the President, or protesting America, or the military. That would be propaganda designed to deflect you from discussing the real issues. Players who are doing this have not done a good job conveying the message, and have let the opposition dictate the conversation.

Fun fact, Colin Kapernick used to sit for the anthem. He was told that was disrespectful to the country, and asked what he could do instead. He was told that kneeling was a sign of respect for fallen comrades by a former Green Beret, Nate Boyer. That's where "taking a knee" came from.

http://www.snopes.com/veteran-kaepernick-take-a-knee-anthem/

You're right they have done a poor job conveying the msg because most ppl think these athletes are taking a knee to spite Trump. As if the anthem is his theme song lol .. Still don't really know why they are taking a knee if they aren't protesting Trump what are they protesting ? (Serious question)

Raps08-09 Champ
10-08-2017, 01:38 PM
Who really cares about the US Anthem anyway? Half of that song is based off of lies for most of its existence anyway.

likemystylez
10-08-2017, 03:06 PM
Who really cares about the US Anthem anyway? Half of that song is based off of lies for most of its existence anyway.

The original protest is primarily based on lies and/or a complete lack of knowledge regarding most of the cases with blacks killed by cops.

likemystylez
10-08-2017, 03:08 PM
An NHL player participated. That's good news.

I was hoping the NHL players would maybe start a blue lives matter protest.... seeing as cops are killed by black people 18 times as often as unarmed blacks are killed by police. Stats show cops being killed is a bigger issue

I wonder what happens if the cops just completely sit back and do nothing at a few of these games- just to show the value of police.

cmellofan15
10-08-2017, 07:32 PM
As athletes , maybe instead of staying in the tunnel or taking a knee . Maybe , just maybe,take some time and work within the community :shrug:

Wait... LMAO do you not realize that this happens already? I'm a HS football coach and plenty of OSU grads come setup football camps, come speak to kids, or just straight up donate entire game checks. Laveon Bell just donated $750k to his old HS here in a pretty poor neighborhood in Columbus at the beginning of the season.

cmellofan15
10-08-2017, 07:35 PM
I was hoping the NHL players would maybe start a blue lives matter protest.... seeing as cops are killed by black people 18 times as often as unarmed blacks are killed by police. Stats show cops being killed is a bigger issue

I wonder what happens if the cops just completely sit back and do nothing at a few of these games- just to show the value of police.

Where are you finding these stats???

And you do realize no one is protesting the police, they're protesting police brutality and systemic racism. To suggest that people don't want police to do their jobs is ridiculous, but its pretty reasonable to ask the ones who abuse their authority not to do so.

Saddletramp
10-08-2017, 09:16 PM
There's a lot of things Stylez doesn't realize.

likemystylez
10-08-2017, 09:23 PM
Where are you finding these stats???

And you do realize no one is protesting the police, they're protesting police brutality and systemic racism. To suggest that people don't want police to do their jobs is ridiculous, but its pretty reasonable to ask the ones who abuse their authority not to do so.

Are the stats really that unbelievable to you?? FBI data from 2015 I believe..... doubt its changed all that much with atleast 2 or 3 ambushes from BLM on cops in the last couple years.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#

and here is the exact section

5. Blacks are more likely to kill cops than be killed by cops. This is according to FBI data, which also found that 40 percent of cop killers are black. According to Mac Donald, the police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person.

Despite the facts, the anti-police rhetoric of Black Lives Matter and their leftist sympathizers have resulted in what Mac Donald calls the "Ferguson Effect," as murders have spiked by 17 percent among the 50 biggest cities in the U.S. as a result of cops being more reluctant to police neighborhoods out of fear of being labeled as racists. Additionally, there have been over twice as many cops victimized by fatal shootings in the first three months of 2016.

its also important to note that plenty of the "unarmed" blacks were still clearly a threat to the officer (IE Mike Brown)

likemystylez
10-08-2017, 09:26 PM
There's a lot of things Stylez doesn't realize.

Yeah sorry, I stopped watching Young Turks and Trevor Noah a long time ago.

nastynice
10-08-2017, 10:56 PM
I disagree with your point on government being against black people. Their are government programs that are designed to solely help black people. To prove that the government is against black people, you have to provide laws that seek out to hurt black people. And please dont bring up the crack punishments, which is a reach at best. If this was 1963 then you'd have a huge argument. I'm serious, bring laws that prove your point, and if legit I'll agree with you.

BLM sucks. BLM protestors chanting “what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!” discredits that movement alone. BLM has also supported segregated dorms in a college is CA. MLK would be beside himself.

Sharpton has had tax issues in the past. No enough to dislike? Ok, how about his statements about how Obama shouldn't be questioned? These people are duds and should be treated as such.

It's not like the govt is a person, and that person is a racist. The govt is a system, this system is set in such a way that blacks statistically get the short end of the stick more often than any other demographic. And it's not even close.

We have a perpetual violence system. We have a perpetual crime system. The right fuel their flame through gun sales and cell blocks, the left through hand outs and cell blocks. Great, bipartisan support. Sure, they may not explicitly say applicable to blacks only, but you really gotta be blind not to understand mainstream societies general negativity towards blacks. Wether rooted in truth or falsehood, wether intended or not, that automatically becomes a burden which every black person must carry with them to some degree or another. I promise you this, literally EVERY (American raised) black individual in this country has tasted this to some degree or another.

Regarding blm, the thing is it's not like you were sitting there listening to what blm had to say, and then later changed your stance because of what they were doing. If you did then congratulations you are part of the 5%, but vast majority of people simply oppose what blm is, the reflection of an unjust society. Some people take it personal, some people feel guilty over it, **** if I know what's going on...

likemystylez
10-08-2017, 11:29 PM
]It's not like the govt is a person, and that person is a racist. The govt is a system, this system is set in such a way that blacks statistically get the short end of the stick more often than any other demographic. And it's not even close.

Thats a reflection of different cultures in different racial groups, not the government. Generally speaking- some racial groups make better decisions and have different priorities for their families, thus people from those racial groups develop different values moving forward..... and tend to be more successful.

There are 3 big things to focus on if you want to live a decent poverty free life. 1) Graduate Highschool, 2) Dont get married before 21 and 3) dont have kids out of wedlock

Doesnt matter what race- people who do those things are very unlikely to struggle relatively speaking.


We have a perpetual violence system. We have a perpetual crime system. The right fuel their flame through gun sales and cell blocks, the left through hand outs and cell blocks. Great, bipartisan support. Sure, they may not explicitly say applicable to blacks only, but you really gotta be blind not to understand mainstream societies general negativity towards blacks. Wether rooted in truth or falsehood, wether intended or not, that automatically becomes a burden which every black person must carry with them to some degree or another. I promise you this, literally EVERY (American raised) black individual in this country has tasted this to some degree or another.


Not sure how to respond as this was very unspecific, but most white people have faced prejudice too. For example- the term white privileged thats become trendy. It is assuming that all white people grow up with everything handed to them (LOL Ironically our boy colin kapernick would fall into that).... but it basically implies that white people dont work for anything.... atleast the way its most frequently used.

and speaking of systematic racism, on average a black person is allowed to score 240 points less and still get into the same school as a white person. Every white person going to college has to face that.


Regarding blm, the thing is it's not like you were sitting there listening to what blm had to say, and then later changed your stance because of what they were doing. If you did then congratulations you are part of the 5%, but vast majority of people simply oppose what blm is, the reflection of an unjust society. Some people take it personal, some people feel guilty over it, **** if I know what's going on...

BLM could do a ton of good if they worked to change the culture in the black communities. Rather than preach blacks that they are all victims in society, they should be focusing on poor decisions rearing children, changing the values int he culture (IE why are black people committing 60% of all violent crime when they make up less than 13% of the population)

ALSO_ if your primary goal is to stop blacks from dieing- why have not protested a single black on black homicide. (I realize white people kill white people too, but white people arent out saying white lives matter)

nastynice
10-09-2017, 04:12 AM
Thats a reflection of different cultures in different racial groups, not the government. Generally speaking- some racial groups make better decisions and have different priorities for their families, thus people from those racial groups develop different values moving forward..... and tend to be more successful.

There are 3 big things to focus on if you want to live a decent poverty free life. 1) Graduate Highschool, 2) Dont get married before 21 and 3) dont have kids out of wedlock

Doesnt matter what race- people who do those things are very unlikely to struggle relatively speaking.



Not sure how to respond as this was very unspecific, but most white people have faced prejudice too. For example- the term white privileged thats become trendy. It is assuming that all white people grow up with everything handed to them (LOL Ironically our boy colin kapernick would fall into that).... but it basically implies that white people dont work for anything.... atleast the way its most frequently used.

and speaking of systematic racism, on average a black person is allowed to score 240 points less and still get into the same school as a white person. Every white person going to college has to face that.



BLM could do a ton of good if they worked to change the culture in the black communities. Rather than preach blacks that they are all victims in society, they should be focusing on poor decisions rearing children, changing the values int he culture (IE why are black people committing 60% of all violent crime when they make up less than 13% of the population)

ALSO_ if your primary goal is to stop blacks from dieing- why have not protested a single black on black homicide. (I realize white people kill white people too, but white people arent out saying white lives matter)

It's a reflection of the govt because why are the cultures as they are? Why is one color dealing with so many more issues than others? It has to do with how those cultures arose in this country, which is obviously on the heels of the slave trade. Unless you're telling me being black makes one inherently more likely to make those types of decisions

Well of course, EVERYONE has faced prejudice. Every race has their drawbacks and their privelages, but black in America is clearly way more lopsided than anything else we got here. Your post only illustrates that, showing how things are so inherently lopsided that we have to take measures to try and even things out. Its an attempt, and that's great, but we've got a LONG way to go

BLM isn't about preaching blacks to be victims, nor is it about protesting black on black homocides. It is about voicing a grievance to the govt

Saddletramp
10-09-2017, 05:57 AM
Thats a reflection of different cultures in different racial groups, not the government. Generally speaking- some racial groups make better decisions and have different priorities for their families, thus people from those racial groups develop different values moving forward..... and tend to be more successful.

There are 3 big things to focus on if you want to live a decent poverty free life. 1) Graduate Highschool, 2) Dont get married before 21 and 3) dont have kids out of wedlock

Doesnt matter what race- people who do those things are very unlikely to struggle relatively speaking.



Not sure how to respond as this was very unspecific, but most white people have faced prejudice too. For example- the term white privileged thats become trendy. It is assuming that all white people grow up with everything handed to them (LOL Ironically our boy colin kapernick would fall into that).... but it basically implies that white people dont work for anything.... atleast the way its most frequently used.

and speaking of systematic racism, on average a black person is allowed to score 240 points less and still get into the same school as a white person. Every white person going to college has to face that.



BLM could do a ton of good if they worked to change the culture in the black communities. Rather than preach blacks that they are all victims in society, they should be focusing on poor decisions rearing children, changing the values int he culture (IE why are black people committing 60% of all violent crime when they make up less than 13% of the population)

ALSO_ if your primary goal is to stop blacks from dieing- why have not protested a single black on black homicide. (I realize white people kill white people too, but white people arent out saying white lives matter)

Oh dear lord.......

nastynice
10-09-2017, 06:21 AM
OH Please, seriously STFU about that garbage.

white people are killed by cops more often in similar situations, and black people kill cops 18 times as often as cops kill unarmed black people.

This crap about athletes protesting cops killing blacks was proven horse manuer back when the rams came out and were chanting "hands up dont shoot" to defend a guy who was proven to not have his hands up.

Besides most the players are doing this cuz its trendy at this point, how many of the players really read through the court transcripts of the cases they are protesting? They just hear cop kills black person and immediately decide america has a problem in how they see african americans....... they dont care about circumstances.

Regarding athletes and cops, and stories where someone wrongly used the race card, this some how erases racism in America? Let media do whatever monkey dance they wanna do, don't dance along with it.

All this extra curricular ****, and who knelt during what song and made what president say what thousandth mind numbingly stupid thing, none of this changes the fact that on the ground, in America, we have an environment which looks at this one demographic, black America, in such a way that we have (knowingly or unknowingly) created enough (intended or unintended) hurdles that we can statistically and objectively quantify them as having to deal with the most bull **** out of all of us. And not like my team lost in over time or someone made me feel guilty today type a ****, no I mean real ****, like incarceration, like drug addiction, like violence and homocide, like real *** ****.

They don't care about the circumstances on the tv box my brother because they care about the circumstances on their streets, and on a lot of their streets **** is really ****ed up. From within. From outside. From the system, to the cracks within it. That's just what it is bro, that's just reality. Why acknowledging a general but clear socioeconomic inequality amongst diff races in America is something to feel guilty about is beyond me, but feeling guilty about it doesn't make it any less realer

I mean unless you personally had something with setting up such a system then I don't really see the need for you to feel guilty about anything..

Vinylman
10-09-2017, 06:35 AM
b

lol good try. Black people kill black people the same way white people kill white people. Think its 92% black on black and 87% white on white (my numbers might be 1 or 2 percent off). And since white people are more then 50% of the gen population this makes them the most violent race in america! But no one uses this logic because its dumb and demeaning. These protests will continue to happen as long as people continue to justify the killings of unarmed colored people by public severvants.
RIP to the KID mike brown

no comment on the topic but dude you would get an F in statistics...