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likemystylez
10-09-2017, 09:59 AM
[QUOTE]It's a reflection of the govt because why are the cultures as they are? Why is one color dealing with so many more issues than others? It has to do with how those cultures arose in this country, which is obviously on the heels of the slave trade. Unless you're telling me being black makes one inherently more likely to make those types of decisions

Whites growing up in similar situations are more likely to make similar bad decisions. I can promise you that the government is not telling black men to repeatedly have babies with women and not take any responsibility rearing the children. It's a personal decision that leads future generations likely to make other poor decisions. Yes slavery happened and it was horrible, but at some point you have to move forward and take accountability for your own decisions..... how long is this blaming the government suppose to last? The way I see it, if you arent doing everything in your power to be successful, there's no point in pointing the finger elsewhere.


Well of course, EVERYONE has faced prejudice. Every race has their drawbacks and their privelages, but black in America is clearly way more lopsided than anything else we got here. Your post only illustrates that, showing how things are so inherently lopsided that we have to take measures to try and even things out. Its an attempt, and that's great, but we've got a LONG way to go

LOL those measures actually illustrate actual tangible systematic racism towards whites and other races- FAVORING BLACKS. LOL its not just looking at results and calling out systematic racism. (For example- blacks arent graduating highschool as often as other races = systematic racism) BTW- if white privilege is such an issue, why isnt anyone concerned with Asian Privilege or specifically privilege of people from India? Those groups are killing it in terms of being successful.


BLM isn't about preaching blacks to be victims, nor is it about protesting black on black homicides. It is about voicing a grievance to the govt

About a month ago one of the leaders of BLM made a video of 10 demands from white people. Nothing to do with Grievance to Govt, and basically trying to milk the victim card.

threeforthewin
10-09-2017, 11:26 AM
I like this idea of kneeling but... how many weeks will this go on? Will they kneel for every game? Race issues aren't something that go away overnight.

nastynice
10-09-2017, 01:36 PM
Whites growing up in similar situations are more likely to make similar bad decisions. I can promise you that the government is not telling black men to repeatedly have babies with women and not take any responsibility rearing the children. It's a personal decision that leads future generations likely to make other poor decisions. Yes slavery happened and it was horrible, but at some point you have to move forward and take accountability for your own decisions..... how long is this blaming the government suppose to last? The way I see it, if you arent doing everything in your power to be successful, there's no point in pointing the finger elsewhere.



LOL those measures actually illustrate actual tangible systematic racism towards whites and other races- FAVORING BLACKS. LOL its not just looking at results and calling out systematic racism. (For example- blacks arent graduating highschool as often as other races = systematic racism) BTW- if white privilege is such an issue, why isnt anyone concerned with Asian Privilege or specifically privilege of people from India? Those groups are killing it in terms of being successful.



About a month ago one of the leaders of BLM made a video of 10 demands from white people. Nothing to do with Grievance to Govt, and basically trying to milk the victim card.

You're first sentence supports the idea that that culture arose because of situation. YES slavery ended, but we still had a system slanted against blacks. They went from slavery to the ghetto, and we have yet to even attempt to fundamentally clean up that mess we made. Before the racists say they are free, why do they need equal opportunity and facilities. Today, the racists say, they are free, why do they need equal opportunity. Same ****, diff day

It's not about blaming the govt, it's understanding the reality of why that situation exists. You clearly have an EXTREME ignorance (I'm guessing you're in your teens, maybe early early 20's) of the entire situation at hand. That situation exists because it was ACTIVELY created by our govt and policy. People in that situation are saying hey, stop operating in such a way to perpetuate this poverty for us, instead operate in a way that gives us opportunities. Of course they should blame the govt, who do you blame if your town has no police? If white people started vocally asking for police the what would you say, stop blaming the govt? Police yourselves? I mean cmon man, how ****in stupid is that reasoning

I love how taxes go up 2 percent and white people lose their mind, but asking the govt to stop operating in a way that gives these demographics almost no opportunity, yea, THATS crossing the line. Bravo genius

The driving force behind blm is injustice and inequality. Wether you are so privileged in your life to the degree that you are literally blind to this obvious fact, well that's kinda on you. I mean how much **** do we need to spoon feed you?

likemystylez
10-09-2017, 01:55 PM
You're first sentence supports the idea that that culture arose because of situation. YES slavery ended, but we still had a system slanted against blacks. They went from slavery to the ghetto, and we have yet to even attempt to fundamentally clean up that mess we made. Before the racists say they are free, why do they need equal opportunity and facilities. Today, the racists say, they are free, why do they need equal opportunity. Same ****, diff day

It's not about blaming the govt, it's understanding the reality of why that situation exists. You clearly have an EXTREME ignorance (I'm guessing you're in your teens, maybe early early 20's) of the entire situation at hand. That situation exists because it was ACTIVELY created by our govt and policy. People in that situation are saying hey, stop operating in such a way to perpetuate this poverty for us, instead operate in a way that gives us opportunities. Of course they should blame the govt, who do you blame if your town has no police? If white people started vocally asking for police the what would you say, stop blaming the govt? Police yourselves? I mean cmon man, how ****in stupid is that reasoning

I love how taxes go up 2 percent and white people lose their mind, but asking the govt to stop operating in a way that gives these demographics almost no opportunity, yea, THATS crossing the line. Bravo genius

The driving force behind blm is injustice and inequality. Wether you are so privileged in your life to the degree that you are literally blind to this obvious fact, well that's kinda on you. I mean how much **** do we need to spoon feed you?

so whats the solution to this system "slanted against blacks"? Not only do the protesters not offer a solution, they dont reference a single law or regulation that "systematically" oppresses black people in the United States. Thats why I say it sounds like they are just looking for fuel to portray themselves as the victims. With that rhetoric being spread, basically they assume life will always be unfair so there is no point in worrying about what poor decisions I make.

On the other hand, I provided very clear reasons for the difference in culture and values. I listed exact things that could be done that would improve the chances of success. Granted my solutions put accountability on the ones complaining they are being oppressed, and I know that rubs some people the wrong way. (Like they are being told what to do).

All that needs to be "spoon fed" to me are precise actions that could be taken that would put everyone on an even playing field.

nastynice
10-09-2017, 04:25 PM
so whats the solution to this system "slanted against blacks"? Not only do the protesters not offer a solution, they dont reference a single law or regulation that "systematically" oppresses black people in the United States. Thats why I say it sounds like they are just looking for fuel to portray themselves as the victims. With that rhetoric being spread, basically they assume life will always be unfair so there is no point in worrying about what poor decisions I make.

On the other hand, I provided very clear reasons for the difference in culture and values. I listed exact things that could be done that would improve the chances of success. Granted my solutions put accountability on the ones complaining they are being oppressed, and I know that rubs some people the wrong way. (Like they are being told what to do).

All that needs to be "spoon fed" to me are precise actions that could be taken that would put everyone on an even playing field.

That's great, if I were a local politician or had a hand in local judicial branch, maybe I would take the time to try and lay out economic plans to help build our economy. But i'm not, so I forgot to do the report. Forgive me. However, like I've mentioned before, creating self sustaining models in which the citizens of an area are empowered to build their local economy does a lot more for us as a society compared to gentrifying and handouts. If we understand how and why this happens, we can attempt to improve how we build our nation.

You mentioned the culture and I ask you again, is this culture inherently found amongst blacks, or is this culture a product of the environment and a history full of slave trading? I don't know how many AFRICAN africans you know, but african culture vs african american culture are at their fundamental core two VASTLY different things.

People needing to be held responsible for their own communities should be a given. Of course everyone that complains about anything can always look in the mirror to some degree. However, the issue at hand is one which is not only a direct effect of our gov't policies (past and present), but is also an issue which we generally put responsibility on our gov't for. For example, when we go through a down economic cycle, white people start complaining too, do they not have this right? If our economy crashes and citizens demand some sort of action by the government, would your response be to help yourself and stop playing the victim card?

Its not about the victim card. Its about truly understanding how differently our system treats diff demographics.

likemystylez
10-09-2017, 05:40 PM
[QUOTE]That's great, if I were a local politician or had a hand in local judicial branch, maybe I would take the time to try and lay out economic plans to help build our economy. But i'm not, so I forgot to do the report.

Dont sweat it, it was a rhetorical question. There are no laws, regulations or policies that are systematically oppressing black people in the United States. If there were clear laws that require black people to be treated unfairly- believe me CNN and the rest of left wing media would be screaming about them constantly and we would all know them.



You mentioned the culture and I ask you again, is this culture inherently found amongst blacks, or is this culture a product of the environment and a history full of slave trading?

The initial thing that gets a lot of black people started off on the wrong track is growing up without a father. Since the civil rights movement in 1960, The united states has made great strides in terms of the freedom of all citizens. Infact- I would personally argue that The US Government is currently the freest government in the history of documented civilization (and it isnt even close),

Anyways, single parent households in the black community has gone from 25% to 70% during that time frame following the civil rights movement. That shift clearly is not the result of slavery.



People needing to be held responsible for their own communities should be a given. Of course everyone that complains about anything can always look in the mirror to some degree. However, the issue at hand is one which is not only a direct effect of our gov't policies (past and present),

There are no present policies holding down black people, and the ones in the past were adamantly faught against by the republican party (IE the Civil War)



For example, when we go through a down economic cycle, white people start complaining too, do they not have this right? If our economy crashes and citizens demand some sort of action by the government, would your response be to help yourself and stop playing the victim card?


Its not about the victim card. Its about truly understanding how differently our system treats diff demographics.

1) in some cases I would say stop playing the victim card. During the mortgage crisis of 08 when people were mad at banks for giving them loans they couldnt afford. many of those same people passed up on doing business with responsible banks because the responsible banks didnt approve a loan where the customer likely would go under. Thus a lot of consumers created the market that demanded those bad loans. The situation that ended up happening was foreseeable and it was definitely unfortunate..... but those people who shopped around for the lender who would give them the most money are not complete victims in it. I think a centralized regulation of the application process was appropriate but it makes it harder and more time consuming to process loans..... anyways thats sort of off topic from the protest.

In regards to our system treating demographics differently.... thats not really established. It seems as though if they dont know the answer to something and the outcome is unfair, then it must be systematic racism. The whole narrative just sets black people up for future poor decisions, poor quality of living, poor values, poor priorities etc. Its like every time there is any type of obstacle in life- it is a result of the system being against them and there's nothing that they can do about it. Thats the crap that leads to generations of bad culture. Its ridiculous to expect people to succeed when they are given a complete pass on all accountability. Of course they are going to just assume its hopeless at that point

nastynice
10-09-2017, 11:38 PM
[QUOTE=nastynice;31896703]

Dont sweat it, it was a rhetorical question. There are no laws, regulations or policies that are systematically oppressing black people in the United States. If there were clear laws that require black people to be treated unfairly- believe me CNN and the rest of left wing media would be screaming about them constantly and we would all know them.




The initial thing that gets a lot of black people started off on the wrong track is growing up without a father. Since the civil rights movement in 1960, The united states has made great strides in terms of the freedom of all citizens. Infact- I would personally argue that The US Government is currently the freest government in the history of documented civilization (and it isnt even close),

Anyways, single parent households in the black community has gone from 25% to 70% during that time frame following the civil rights movement. That shift clearly is not the result of slavery.


,

There are no present policies holding down black people, and the ones in the past were adamantly faught against by the republican party (IE the Civil War)






1) in some cases I would say stop playing the victim card. During the mortgage crisis of 08 when people were mad at banks for giving them loans they couldnt afford. many of those same people passed up on doing business with responsible banks because the responsible banks didnt approve a loan where the customer likely would go under. Thus a lot of consumers created the market that demanded those bad loans. The situation that ended up happening was foreseeable and it was definitely unfortunate..... but those people who shopped around for the lender who would give them the most money are not complete victims in it. I think a centralized regulation of the application process was appropriate but it makes it harder and more time consuming to process loans..... anyways thats sort of off topic from the protest.

In regards to our system treating demographics differently.... thats not really established. It seems as though if they dont know the answer to something and the outcome is unfair, then it must be systematic racism. The whole narrative just sets black people up for future poor decisions, poor quality of living, poor values, poor priorities etc. Its like every time there is any type of obstacle in life- it is a result of the system being against them and there's nothing that they can do about it. Thats the crap that leads to generations of bad culture. Its ridiculous to expect people to succeed when they are given a complete pass on all accountability. Of course they are going to just assume its hopeless at that point

So let me ask you this, what do you get out of the fact that there are no laws that explicitly state to harass minorities? Does that mean that the system must not be slanted against them? Does that mean its not possible for a system to target one race of another? Does that society must not be racist? What leap are you making and what conclusion are you drawing from the fact that there are no laws which specifically identify races to mistreat?

Your stats are misleading. You say a jump from 25% to 70%, which is less than a three fold increase. The numbers across the board for single parent households in america from the two time periods are 9% and 36%. That is a FOUR fold increase. So the jump amongst black was actually a smaller multiple than the jump amongst all americans, meaning all it did was follow the trend of society in which single parent households became more prevalent due to changes in other aspects of society. Yet you are acting as though it went from fixed to broken. That is not accurate.

The policies holding blacks down are the perpetual crime and violence systems we have set up in cities across the country. These are lucrative businesses in which mass profits are to be had, they target those who are in the most vulnerable position, and given our history it is obvious which racial demographic that was/is.

If the crash was so foreseeable, then what the hell is going on in vancouver and toronto, and please let me know when to sell. People saw home prices jumping, people wanted to get a home before the price quadrupled, many people took a massive hit for it. Now if after the crash we have protests in which people are saying for the gov't to keep a closer eye on banks and make sure they do not create such an artificial environment prone to collapsing, this is them playing the victim card? You would honestly think in your head that these people should be quiet and just focus on what role they played in the whole thing? That sounds insane to me. I would be one hundred percent behind people demanding our gov't provide them better protection and better avenues to reach better quality of living.

You said "in regards to our system treating demographic differently...thats not really established", man, I just don't have a response to that. It is truly mind blowing that a (possibly) grown *** man who was raised in this country could honestly think that. You're like SO disconnected from reality, like, damn. That's crazy to me, but whatever, guess we all diff

If you went to the hood and said that, people would be FURIOUS. Seriously. And I wouldn't blame them. Like holy crap, how could you be THAT ****in blind...that's a slap in the face to so many people

likemystylez
10-10-2017, 08:58 AM
[QUOTE=likemystylez;31896951]

[QUOTE]So let me ask you this, what do you get out of the fact that there are no laws that explicitly state to harass minorities? Does that mean that the system must not be slanted against them? Does that mean its not possible for a system to target one race of another? Does that society must not be racist? What leap are you making and what conclusion are you drawing from the fact that there are no laws which specifically identify races to mistreat?


Laws in place would be very clear evidence of this issue being systematic. Systematic implies that there is a plan or a well thought out method to accomplish the issue of blacks being in worse conditions than whites. Reality is that this system that keeps getting bashed not only doesnt show an organized attempt to hold them down, ive pointed to many clear organized programs to give them an upper leg..... even if it means being outright racist to other groups in the system (which I would think blacks would feel strongly against if they really want equality)



Your stats are misleading. You say a jump from 25% to 70%, which is less than a three fold increase. The numbers across the board for single parent households in america from the two time periods are 9% and 36%. That is a FOUR fold increase. So the jump amongst black was actually a smaller multiple than the jump amongst all americans, meaning all it did was follow the trend of society in which single parent households became more prevalent due to changes in other aspects of society. Yet you are acting as though it went from fixed to broken. That is not accurate.


Good rebuttal on the stats, but it kind of shows that having kids out of wedlock isnt exclusive to "being on the heals of slavery. Also- I couldnt find any stats for this because I didnt know how to word it..... but I would bet that amongst the single mother households- black men are far less likely to be assisting in the upbringing of their children. Combine that with over 70%, and culture in that community is going to feel it.


The policies holding blacks down are the perpetual crime and violence systems we have set up in cities across the country. These are lucrative businesses in which mass profits are to be had, they target those who are in the most vulnerable position, and given our history it is obvious which racial demographic that was/is.

Im not sure what that even means? I agree there is too much violence and crime- but how on earth is that a policy in your mind? Talk about an absolute absence of any accountability what so ever. Anyway- It appears we have come full circle. The police in these bad areas ( Baton Rouge, Ferguson) trying to clean up the crime and make the community better and they are attacked. Darren Wilson is portrayed as a racist cop who goes out to hunt black people... when in reality he had never even fired his gun before. Also if he were out to shoot black people surely he would have killed all the black witnesses, but no he shot the guy who was attacking him. He didnt attack Dorian Johnson at all.

Next thing you know, there are even athletes piling on and misstating stuff about mike brown having his hands up and running away.... creating this false narrative. Its almost like the people protesting want the cops to stay out of those areas and allow this "perpetual crime" to continue. HAHAHA infact a ton of them were looting and doing more of it- LOL again though, they are on the heals of slavery so they cant be blamed for any of that. its all the system and bla bla bla.


If the crash was so foreseeable, then what the hell is going on in vancouver and toronto, and please let me know when to sell. People saw home prices jumping, people wanted to get a home before the price quadrupled, many people took a massive hit for it. Now if after the crash we have protests in which people are saying for the gov't to keep a closer eye on banks and make sure they do not create such an artificial environment prone to collapsing, this is them playing the victim card? You would honestly think in your head that these people should be quiet and just focus on what role they played in the whole thing? That sounds insane to me. I would be one hundred percent behind people demanding our gov't provide them better protection and better avenues to reach better quality of living.

dont want to get into this because its a little further off topic in this forum than I care to go. Also this would take a long time to go through. I use to work in real estate development during the time frame of the crash and the years before. It rubs me the wrong way when people lie about critical qualifying questions on applications, lie multiple times while being notarized, and then have such hatred towards the lending company who took them at their word.


You said "in regards to our system treating demographic differently...thats not really established", man, I just don't have a response to that. It is truly mind blowing that a (possibly) grown *** man who was raised in this country could honestly think that. You're like SO disconnected from reality, like, damn. That's crazy to me, but whatever, guess we all diff

I believe there is a difference in culture, I can clearly see that. I just tend to think the reasons are poor choices, priorities, and values passed down from generation to generation and not some government master plan to keep one race oppressed. Just because the last 7 or 8 generations in your family didnt think it was vitally important to graduate highschool..... doesnt mean you dont have a choice moving forward to change your own priorities.

nastynice
10-11-2017, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=nastynice;31898562][QUOTE=likemystylez;31896951]



Laws in place would be very clear evidence of this issue being systematic. Systematic implies that there is a plan or a well thought out method to accomplish the issue of blacks being in worse conditions than whites. Reality is that this system that keeps getting bashed not only doesnt show an organized attempt to hold them down, ive pointed to many clear organized programs to give them an upper leg..... even if it means being outright racist to other groups in the system (which I would think blacks would feel strongly against if they really want equality)




Good rebuttal on the stats, but it kind of shows that having kids out of wedlock isnt exclusive to "being on the heals of slavery. Also- I couldnt find any stats for this because I didnt know how to word it..... but I would bet that amongst the single mother households- black men are far less likely to be assisting in the upbringing of their children. Combine that with over 70%, and culture in that community is going to feel it.



Im not sure what that even means? I agree there is too much violence and crime- but how on earth is that a policy in your mind? Talk about an absolute absence of any accountability what so ever. Anyway- It appears we have come full circle. The police in these bad areas ( Baton Rouge, Ferguson) trying to clean up the crime and make the community better and they are attacked. Darren Wilson is portrayed as a racist cop who goes out to hunt black people... when in reality he had never even fired his gun before. Also if he were out to shoot black people surely he would have killed all the black witnesses, but no he shot the guy who was attacking him. He didnt attack Dorian Johnson at all.

Next thing you know, there are even athletes piling on and misstating stuff about mike brown having his hands up and running away.... creating this false narrative. Its almost like the people protesting want the cops to stay out of those areas and allow this "perpetual crime" to continue. HAHAHA infact a ton of them were looting and doing more of it- LOL again though, they are on the heals of slavery so they cant be blamed for any of that. its all the system and bla bla bla.



dont want to get into this because its a little further off topic in this forum than I care to go. Also this would take a long time to go through. I use to work in real estate development during the time frame of the crash and the years before. It rubs me the wrong way when people lie about critical qualifying questions on applications, lie multiple times while being notarized, and then have such hatred towards the lending company who took them at their word.



I believe there is a difference in culture, I can clearly see that. I just tend to think the reasons are poor choices, priorities, and values passed down from generation to generation and not some government master plan to keep one race oppressed. Just because the last 7 or 8 generations in your family didnt think it was vitally important to graduate highschool..... doesnt mean you dont have a choice moving forward to change your own priorities.

Think about it, why do we have efformative action programs? If the system was not tilted against a certain demographic, then why do we as a society have program like that in place? It is because there is a very HEAVY and CLEAR bias against certain demographics, if there wasn't there's would be no affirmative action

You don't understand how stats work. In the 60's, blacks were FOUR times More likely to have a single parent household than avg. today, blacks are TWO times more likely. It's on the heels of slavery, learn stats.

The perpetual system means that our govt and business men affiliated with our govt make a lot of money off of these two systems which are destroying the black community. It's not an explicitly written law, but you gotta be smart enough to put two and two together

I seen the real estate in industry too and everyone's was ****ing of, appraiser pulling numbers out their ***, banks knowingly pushing those numbers through..there was a lotta **** going on

You are incredibly ignorant. It's not like today a black American represemts black culture throughout history. Today's culture is 100% a product if the slaves system. We should fix this mess we created

HeartOfStarks
10-11-2017, 05:14 PM
so whats the solution to this system "slanted against blacks"? Not only do the protesters not offer a solution, they dont reference a single law or regulation that "systematically" oppresses black people in the United States. Thats why I say it sounds like they are just looking for fuel to portray themselves as the victims. With that rhetoric being spread, basically they assume life will always be unfair so there is no point in worrying about what poor decisions I make.

On the other hand, I provided very clear reasons for the difference in culture and values. I listed exact things that could be done that would improve the chances of success. Granted my solutions put accountability on the ones complaining they are being oppressed, and I know that rubs some people the wrong way. (Like they are being told what to do).

All that needs to be "spoon fed" to me are precise actions that could be taken that would put everyone on an even playing field.

You're aware of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 that ran for 24 years until Congress passed the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 that did away with the 100-1 Crack-Cocaine sentencing disparity, correct? This is just one law that put non-violent offenders, mostly people of color, into long prison sentences whereas people selling more expensive drugs (ie. cocaine, considered in the 80s to be more of a "white person's drug" vs crack) were sentenced based on a 1:100 ratio of drug quantity - meaning someone caught selling 5 KILOS of coke was to receive the same sentence as someone selling 50 grams of crack.

Combine this with a program like Stop & Frisk which was absolutely targeted at communities with dense minority populations vs. somewhere like, oh let's say the Financial District, and you can start to see some of the answers to your questions.

Now I'm simply pointing this out as an example of systemic racism in criminal justice. It's one example, and although the 100-1 law has been overturned, people still spent decades in prison for selling what amounted to small quantities of crack. Obviously crack is terrible but you can say that about many drugs and people in desperate financial situations that have been passed down for generations (due to slavery, then Jim Crow & debt peonage, unequal access to education, etc. etc.) will resort to desperate measures for survival.

I don't want to get too into this rabbit hole with you, go ahead and believe whatever you want obviously, no one can change your opinion. But to pretend there hasn't been decades and really centuries of inequality that are absolutely still present, especially in the prison for profit system we have in America, is a fallacy. Things don't exist in a vacuum - everything that's happening now has been centuries in the making (which is really true of all things).

IndyRealist
10-11-2017, 07:48 PM
You're aware of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 that ran for 24 years until Congress passed the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 that did away with the 100-1 Crack-Cocaine sentencing disparity, correct? This is just one law that put non-violent offenders, mostly people of color, into long prison sentences whereas people selling more expensive drugs (ie. cocaine, considered in the 80s to be more of a "white person's drug" vs crack) were sentenced based on a 1:100 ratio of drug quantity - meaning someone caught selling 5 KILOS of coke was to receive the same sentence as someone selling 50 grams of crack.

Combine this with a program like Stop & Frisk which was absolutely targeted at communities with dense minority populations vs. somewhere like, oh let's say the Financial District, and you can start to see some of the answers to your questions.

Now I'm simply pointing this out as an example of systemic racism in criminal justice. It's one example, and although the 100-1 law has been overturned, people still spent decades in prison for selling what amounted to small quantities of crack. Obviously crack is terrible but you can say that about many drugs and people in desperate financial situations that have been passed down for generations (due to slavery, then Jim Crow & debt peonage, unequal access to education, etc. etc.) will resort to desperate measures for survival.

I don't want to get too into this rabbit hole with you, go ahead and believe whatever you want obviously, no one can change your opinion. But to pretend there hasn't been decades and really centuries of inequality that are absolutely still present, especially in the prison for profit system we have in America, is a fallacy. Things don't exist in a vacuum - everything that's happening now has been centuries in the making (which is really true of all things).

Compare minority community policing vs. college campus policing. The rationalization of increased scrutiny in minority communities is that there is more crime there (when of course you're going to find more crime if you're policing it more, but I digress), but college campuses which are known to have rampant drug use, assault, sexual assault, and robbery are not subject to stop and frisk.

HeartOfStarks
10-11-2017, 07:55 PM
Compare minority community policing vs. college campus policing. The rationalization of increased scrutiny in minority communities is that there is more crime there (when of course you're going to find more crime if you're policing it more, but I digress), but college campuses which are known to have rampant drug use, assault, sexual assault, and robbery are not subject to stop and frisk.

Exactly. And there are plenty of examples like this. You don't have to look far to find inequality in treatment & targeting. Some people just choose to bury their heads in the sand and/or strangely lash out when they see someone standing up and saying something about it. That's what this whole thing comes down to imo.

stejay
10-11-2017, 08:13 PM
This whole thing is ridiculous now. Kneeling during a National Anthem shouldn't bother anyone with brain cells. We have much bigger issues, why does it matter.

likemystylez
10-11-2017, 10:16 PM
[QUOTE=likemystylez;31899022][QUOTE=nastynice;31898562]

[QUOTE]Think about it, why do we have efformative action programs? If the system was not tilted against a certain demographic, then why do we as a society have program like that in place? It is because there is a very HEAVY and CLEAR bias against certain demographics, if there wasn't there's would be no affirmative action

People like you look at ending numbers and assume the system is racist and thats why they are the way they are. Affirmative action is a hand out, and more importantly it is racist towards individuals who did not participate in slavery........ I thought treating races differently is what blacks of all people would want to stop. Lets see if 700,000 black go to war and fight for the end of affirmative action and the unequal treatment of american citizens like white people (predominantly republicans btw) did for blacks. Larry Elder is the only black person with a platform that I have heard repeatedly against affirmative action.


You don't understand how stats work. In the 60's, blacks were FOUR times More likely to have a single parent household than avg. today, blacks are TWO times more likely. It's on the heels of slavery, learn stats.

Why are white people getting divorced more now than in 1960 then? Why isnt this an issue in the Jewish community who were in a similar position as slaves even more recently than slavery was legal?


The perpetual system means that our govt and business men affiliated with our govt make a lot of money off of these two systems which are destroying the black community. It's not an explicitly written law, but you gotta be smart enough to put two and two together

I believe black people making smart choices with their lives will get them out of that situation. Dropping out of school, black men not assisting in the upbringing of their children, participating in off the charts level of other crimes (Per capita) are things that I believe are in the control of black people.

I seen the real estate in industry too and everyone's was ****ing of, appraiser pulling numbers out their ***, banks knowingly pushing those numbers through..there was a lotta **** going on


You are incredibly ignorant. It's not like today a black American represents black culture throughout history. Today's culture is 100% a product if the slaves system. We should fix this mess we created

Im 100% for treating everybody as equals and holding everyone accountable for their current actions. It just makes more sense than trying to rectify the past. No matter what- slavery will always have existed. For gods sake, we just had a black president for 2 consecutive terms.

The real gripe with the kneeling is that they say that colin kaepernick said he was kneeling because of how our police force was treating african americans. "They're getting away with murder". I believe he was referencing primarily Mike Brown, Alton Sterling, Sylville Smith, and Philando Castile. All of those cases had indepth trials with jurys from predominantly democratic communities, with the exception of Alton Sterling (No charges pressed because Sterling had a gun, he was repeatedly asked to put the gun down by officers who were there to arrest him- Police are warranted to use deadly force in that situation)

Now what bothers me is that the original protest was JUST protesting the result of the trial. a Black person was killed and the offender didnt go to jail so the system must be racist. It was clear he didnt have any knowledge of the case other than the 3 sentences he read in some race war baiting left wing news paper. Now if he brought up an actual piece of evidence or testimony that he thought clearly proved there was racism or the police officer was given a huge break on some specific section of the transcripts- then hed be worth listening too. But complaining just because he didnt like the result- thats almost as bad as the rams running around lying about the mike brown case saying hands up dont shoot. That **** pisses me off and spreads racism that isnt based on facts or reality at all

Personally I have read the transcripts from those court cases, and followed them very closely and I didnt see anything glaring. Its not cuz im racist towards blacks either. I thought George Zimmrman should have been charged with Involuntary Manslaughter based on the non hear say evidence. I thought his decisions were made recklessly, he failed to follow a direct order from the police, and he put himself and an innocent person in danger. how exactly the fight went doesnt matter all that much to me because I dont think Zimmerman should have followed him at all.

ewing
10-11-2017, 10:25 PM
This whole thing is ridiculous now. Kneeling during a National Anthem shouldn't bother anyone with brain cells. We have much bigger issues, why does it matter.

only b/c i go places looking for sports talk and i find this.

likemystylez
10-11-2017, 11:16 PM
nastynice-

I appreciate you not getting too triggered and resorting to name calling like a lot of liberals do if I talk on this subject, but im not going to keep going back and forth on all tangents of this anymore. It just takes too long, were not going to agree, and we are going way off the original protest. I went way off on tangents too.

I dont mind discussing the actual protest and protest reason or whether we think trump was in the right to make it a bigger deal than it needed to be. (No president should ever encourage a private business how to discipline or fire their employees- completely inappropriate) A president should never want any willing worker to lose their job.... including athletes.

However everyone kneeling to say ******* Donald Trump blurrs up the original intent of the protest (which I didnt really agree with but whatever) and creates more division.

Saddletramp
10-12-2017, 01:38 AM
Im 100% for treating everybody as equals and holding everyone accountable for their current actions.

I'm going to gloss over everything else you said because.......wow.........but this? You just want everyone to just forget everything that they've went through? The past affects the present which affects the future. You really think that having your ancestors owned and potentially the only reason that you're here is because they were sold into and forced into slavery wouldn't affect future generations? You don't think that that's a huge reason why some white people look down upon black people these days? You don't think that a black man looks at some of these civil war statues and feels emotions about what they mean?

Are you the kind of guy that tells your wife "So you had a miscarriage but that was last month. It sucked but let's try again to have a kid. And stop your crying"?

Vinylman
10-12-2017, 06:29 AM
Compare minority community policing vs. college campus policing. The rationalization of increased scrutiny in minority communities is that there is more crime there (when of course you're going to find more crime if you're policing it more, but I digress), but college campuses which are known to have rampant drug use, assault, sexual assault, and robbery are not subject to stop and frisk.

totally agree that it is arbitrary... maybe the solution should have been greater enforcement in the white community rather than less enforcement in the black community...

not saying I agree with the above approach... just offering it up

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:19 AM
I'm surprised by Goodell's wishy washy approach to player protests. The NFL has taken a huge reputation hit; ratings are down noticeably and they are losing the PR game to nationalists like Trump.

Goodell has taken a hard line with regards to player punishment and has been able to protect the league's reputation to whatever degree possible all things considered. I mean jesus, the nfl weathered the aaron hernandez scandal (a homosexual with CTE guilty of murder1), michael vick's dog torturing and killing scandal, Ray Rice, and and endless list of other violent crimes from the National Felon League.

Hedging on this issue is not characteristic of his regime. I wonder who has his ear for him to take such an uncharacteristically soft line on the issue. The point is, Goodell is absolutely not afraid to discipline players for their often brutal crimes. Someone very powerful, someone high up must have his ear for him to think twice about punishing players for protesting.

It's likely there are a few key very liberal owners who are counseling him on this issue. Poisoning his mind and undermining his leadership. Speculative of course, but this decision is a strange outlier in his otherwise ironfisted, highly successful approach to NFL governance.

I doubt that Goodell would suddenly become completely incompetent overnight. Someone got to him. I don't know whose poison tongue it is, but Goodell has made an enormous error from which the NFL will not soon recover.

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:26 AM
The point being, Silver is not as dumb, wishy washy or as compromised in his position as Goodell apparently is.

The NBA is more or less safe as a result. In addition, the players have far more on the line than NFL players. The top players have brands to protect with far more to lose than NFL players. I doubt their feelings differ much however, meaning there is an ongoing danger that they might do something to endanger their own interests, although perhaps not to the same degree that the nfl players have.

NBA players probably understand that NFL players are jeopardizing the profitability of the league by alienating fans and likely don't want to take the same risk. You never know though.

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:30 AM
What's silly about the NFL protests is that not a single player has spoken up to address even a single specific concrete issue.

Colin Kaepernick can't cite a specific case of racism, or police misconduct that he has dealt with personally, although he implies that he's victim of both.

Odd, considering his own black father left him and his biological mother before he was even born. Not to mention that both adopting parents are white. Third, since the 49ers owner is white and made him a millionaire. Not to mention the coaching staff demoted Alex Smith, a white quarterback to start Kaepernick.

If that's racism we should all be so blessed.

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:34 AM
I find it hilarious that NFL Players are destroying their own reputations and undermining the prestige and profitability of the league, and therefore hurting their own bottom line, long term. Which they cannot afford to do since 2/3 of NFL players are completely broke just 5 years after they exit the league.

Goodell could have made more of an effort to protect the players from themselves, but he seems to lack either the foresight or backbone to get the job done.

This season, we witness the fall of the NFL from it's position of primacy in the pro sports hierarchy. The NFL is still king of the hill but it's position is considerably weakened.

IndyRealist
10-12-2017, 07:55 AM
What's silly about the NFL protests is that not a single player has spoken up to address even a single specific concrete issue.
Colin Kaepernick can't cite a specific case of racism, or police misconduct that he has dealt with personally, although he implies that he's victim of both.

Odd, considering his own black father left him and his biological mother before he was even born. Not to mention that both adopting parents are white. Third, since the 49ers owner is white and made him a millionaire. Not to mention the coaching staff demoted Alex Smith, a white quarterback to start Kaepernick.

If that's racism we should all be so blessed.

Wait, you asked him? Because I'm pretty sure a black quarterback has been told he can't make it as at the NFL level since black quarterbacks can't throw in the pocket. That was literally debated on ESPN when RG3 dropped out of the league.

I'm a nobody who grew up in the suburban midwest, and I can give you dozens of examples of racism I personally experienced. Yet I haven't given a single example on here. Must mean that it never happened, not that no one's asked me.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 08:06 AM
lol at the troll account albfree

albfree
10-12-2017, 08:09 AM
A reporter asked him last season in the locker room. Kapernick refused to specify. No player in the NFL can cite a single case of police brutality or racism which they are protesting in particular.

However, NFL players can surely cite endless examples of the largess of white owners who pay them millions if not tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars to suit up 16X a season. 16 work days a year for $2.5 million on average isn't half bad. White owners and fans must really hate black nfl players if they're being paid such embarrassingly low wages.

I would love to be a victim of white racism and make $2.5 million a year and work 16 "days" a year. Actually more like 3 hours on the field. Actually half of that since there are no two way players in the nfl.

Hmmm, 24 hours of "labor," if you want to call playing a game "labor," and you pocket $2.5 million. The NFL must be run by the KKK.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 08:09 AM
This whole thing is ridiculous now. Kneeling during a National Anthem shouldn't bother anyone with brain cells. We have much bigger issues, why does it matter.

boom.

those who don't like the protest are mostly people who are just projecting their insecurities on to the matter, which on the other hand is their own right as well. but to me it looks petty as they try to protect some hidden fear/agenda.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 08:23 AM
Those who don't like the protests are white nfl fans who don't want politics interjected into entertainment. As a result, they're abandoning the game.

This hurts the bottom line of the players, who aren't smart enough to figure out that they are only hurting themselves as well as all future players, the vast majority of whom are and will be black.

NFL fans think it's silly for black millionaires to cry about racism and injustice and oppression when the players make millions of dollars per year playing a kid's game for a couple dozen hours per "year" (actually a 4 month season).

Ratings are down and stadiums are emptying up and down the west coast. If NBA players haven't learned a lesson from all this, perhaps they're not even as bright as NFL players.

blah blah blah waaaah wahhhh

albfree
10-12-2017, 08:24 AM
boom.

those who don't like the protest are mostly people who are just projecting their insecurities on to the matter, which on the other hand is their own right as well. but to me it looks petty as they try to protect some hidden fear/agenda.

Those who don't like the protests are white nfl fans who don't want politics interjected into entertainment. As a result, they're abandoning the game.

This hurts the bottom line of the players, who aren't smart enough to figure out that they are only hurting themselves as well as all future players, the vast majority of whom are and will be black.

NFL fans think it's silly for black millionaires to cry about racism and injustice and oppression when the players make millions of dollars per year playing a kid's game for a couple dozen hours per "year" (actually a 4 month season).

Ratings are down and stadiums are emptying up and down the west coast. If NBA players haven't learned a lesson from all this, perhaps they're not even as bright as NFL players.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 08:30 AM
I couldn't give a rats *** if revenue goes down for all these over-paid athletes anyway. Owners are killing it already so **** em too.

Y'all could Protest and y'all could hate on the protest. I'm not into politics , I'll leave the thread now.

albfree
10-12-2017, 08:32 AM
blah blah blah waaaah wahhhh

It's actually the black nfl players who are crying and whining about injustices which they cannot specify. Unless of course they are thinking of the millions of dollars they collect from white owners, white advertisers and white spectators.

Well, white spectators are walking away in droves. And so will white corporate advertisers since the nfl can't deliver the audience size they guarantee their advertisers.

Of course, black nfl players can call former fans and advertisers "racist" which will drive even more fans and advertisers away in an endless cycle ultimately driving the NFL into completely irrelevance.

And the players will only have themselves to blame.

Like I said, NBA players won't take Trump's bait. Silver won't let them. Or, maybe they will despite Silver's best efforts. After all, Silver advised Curry and the Warriors to visit the White House and address any "grievances" they had directly with Trump.

Curry of course declined, most likely because of the absurdity of complaining about racism when he, as a black man, collects $70 million a year in salary and sponsorships from white people.

albfree
10-12-2017, 08:41 AM
I couldn't give a rats *** if revenue goes down for all these over-paid athletes anyway. Owners are killing it already so **** em too.

Y'all could Protest and y'all could hate on the protest. I'm not into politics , I'll leave the thread now.

I'm not hating on protest. I'm simply pointing out that not a single player can cite a specific example of racism or oppression which they are protesting. At least give a specific example. Players complaining about racism while they drive lambo's and live in mansions aren't very convincing.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 08:59 AM
[QUOTE]You just want everyone to just forget everything that they've went through?

I was under the assumption that black people alive today had not been through slavery, but why let linear time get in the way of the progressive rhetoric. But hey, have you ever heard of the Irish Slave trade? Huge in the UK, but it was also huge in the US until the late 1700s


The past affects the present which affects the future. it might, but I think a persons current day choices are far more likely to impact their lives today than the history of their ancestors. I dont think any judge would accept someone's ancestors past as an excuse for crimes they decide to commit today. (And please dont say thats cuz they are racist)


You really think that having your ancestors owned and potentially the only reason that you're here is because they were sold into and forced into slavery wouldn't affect future generations? Is it effecting the Irish?

You don't think that that's a huge reason why some white people look down upon black people these days? Different races look down at other races for all sorts of reasons. There are blacks out there that just hate all whites (even white people whos ancestors didnt enter the country until after slavery). My great Grandpa use to hate Japanese people because he was a survivor from Pear Harbor. (Japanese people are doing fine in this country btw)


You don't think that a black man looks at some of these civil war statues and feels emotions about what they mean? I personally dont understand why the left as a whole is so triggered by the civil war. Democrats wanted to keep slavery.


Are you the kind of guy that tells your wife "So you had a miscarriage but that was last month. It sucked but let's try again to have a kid. And stop your crying"?

Well if it was her great great great great great grandma who had the miscarriage, and she was worried about it and talking about it every day.... it might annoy me

albfree
10-12-2017, 09:17 AM
For the record, only 1% of all whites in the US were ever slaveholders.

Do whites look down on blacks? If so, white nfl and nba franchise owners sure do love to give away hundreds of millions to the black people they despise. Joel Embiid just signed a $178 million contract after only playing 30 games in 3 seasons.

Wiggins signed a guaranteed $150 million deal. Steph Curry and Westbrook signed supermax $200 million deals. Of course, that doesn't include the tens or hundreds of millions they will make from shoe companies owned by white people.

Phil Knight, the owner of Nike, signed Lebron to a $1 billion contract. Michael Jordan has made billions from white owners and white sponsors.

Most of the fans who fill nba arenas are white. They cheer like crazy for the black people they despise. They sure do love to buy their jerseys too. And shoes with the names of black players. All for playing children's games. Running, throwing and catching a ball, or throwing a ball into a basket.

Those nba players, they are surely miserable in their mink coats, driving ferrari's and testarosa's. They are so unsatisfied with their estates, private chefs, summer vacations jetsetting around the globe. Yup, racism sucks all right. White owners, sponsors, coaches and fans treat black people like garbage.

How dare white owners and sponsors make black athletes millionaires and billionaires? How dare they guarantee these paltry $200 million contracts? How dare they provide their athletes with the very best medical care on the planet? This stinks to high heaven.

Time to lock arms and take a knee and wear funny socks.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE]For the record, only 1% of all whites in the US were ever slaveholders.

1- Can we get out tenses correct in sentences. Its annoying to blend the past with the present on every point. There are no white people alive right now who themselves or probably even their immediate family/ household owned slaves.

2- The argument they are trying to make is that the institution of slavery in the past puts blacks at a disadvantage today relative to other races. I dont think they believe that all whites hate all blacks right now.


Do whites look down on blacks? If so, white nfl and nba franchise owners sure do love to give away hundreds of millions to the black people they despise. Joel Embiid just signed a $178 million contract after only playing 30 games in 3 seasons.

Contracts in sports dont really prove anything in terms of how an owner feels about another race. Capitalism sees no colors. If the owner thinks his best business decision is to sign a player- then that player will be signed regardless of what race he is.

.

Phil Knight, the owner of Nike, signed Lebron to a $1 billion contract. Michael Jordan has made billions from white owners and white sponsors.

How much money have those sponsors made by going into business with MJ and Lebron. MJ is the most marketable player in the history of pro sports in the United States (and yes present tense is correct in that sentence)


Most of the fans who fill nba arenas are white. They cheer like crazy for the black people they despise. They sure do love to buy their jerseys too.

Most of the population is white, and again nobody has made the claim that all white people dislike black people.



How dare white owners and sponsors make black athletes millionaires and billionaires? How dare they guarantee these paltry $200 million contracts? How dare they provide their athletes with the very best medical care on the planet? This stinks to high heaven.

Time to lock arms and take a knee and wear funny socks.

Im not a fan of the kneeling either, but please dont lump me with this.

albfree
10-12-2017, 09:49 AM
The tenses are correct. Were is the past tense. You are confused. Perhaps you can learn to figure out how to quote a post properly next time while you're at it. Better to fixate on a pseudo error instead of acknowledging facts in your case.

Hmm, the institution of slavery put blacks at a disadvantage? That's must be why blacks are underrepresented in the nba and nfl. Oh wait, 4/5 of all players in the nfl and nba are black you say? Funny how that worked out.

Hmm, the institution of slavery put or is it puts (past or present?) blacks at a disadvantage. Yet, capitalism sees no colors (present tense). Therefore, blacks are not at a disadvantage. Or they are at a disadvantage. Or both. Since, you claim both mutually exclusive claims are correct at the same time.

Shoe companies are making billions. Primarily by paying workers in asia pennies per hour. What's your point?

The majority of the population in the US is still white. So which white people are NFL and NBA players complaining about then? It must be those crazy racist white people like George Zimmerman or Geronimo Yanez.

I didn't lump you in with anyone. That's just a bizarre non sequitur.

albfree
10-12-2017, 10:02 AM
Let's see how racism prevented minorities from ever achieving anything.

Japanese were forced into segregated schools, Chinese were forced into segregated ghettoes, all East Asians were excluded from immigration from 1882 to 1965. Now East Asians are massively overrepresented in higher education esp. in the most selective institutions such as the Ivies.

Blacks were enslaved, yet are 4/5 of all players in the two most high profile pro sports in the US.

Whites are all racist, yet they beg to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars every season for courtside seats and luxury suites to cheer on black people they despise. Their children line up at the end of every game to get a high five and an autograph or even a photo taken with them if they are lucky.

Racist white people suck. All they do is support the lifestyles of millionaire and billionaire black people, praise them, cheer for them, put their pictures on their walls and wear their jerseys on their backs.

Plus, have you noticed there are no black, hispanic or asian congressmen? Did you notice that the previous president was ONLY half black? There are no black, hispanic or asian judges. No black police officers. No women working law enforcement. No women in congress. Only white males are allowed in positions of authority.

This evil system of racial and sexist oppression must end immediately.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 10:08 AM
Hmm, the institution of slavery put blacks at a disadvantage? That's must be why blacks are underrepresented in the nba and nfl. Oh wait, 4/5 of all players in the nfl and nba are black you say? Funny how that worked out.

Because athletes in pro sports is a completely accurate representation of society as a whole.

Hmm, the institution of slavery put or is it puts (past or present?) blacks at a disadvantage. Yet, capitalism sees no colors (present tense). Therefore, blacks are not at a disadvantage. Or they are at a disadvantage. Or both. Since, you claim both mutually exclusive claims are correct at the same time.

Both sentences were puts and sees. Current/ Ongoing tense. For the record, I personally was not arguing that blacks are at a disadvantage because of slavery. I restated others arguments. I do believe that true capitalism is not racist though.


Shoe companies are making billions. Primarily by paying workers in asia pennies per hour. What's your point?

Point is shoe companies will pay athletes to represent them who make them the most money. it doesnt prove they like or dislike blacks.


The majority of the population in the US is still white. So which white people are NFL and NBA players complaining about then? It must be those crazy racist white people like George Zimmerman or Geronimo Yanez.

I didnt know they were complaining about white people. (with the exception of trump I guess, but not because he is white. They dont like the fact that he threatened their jobs over exercising a constitutional right)

Its a blurry message now, but originally they were protesting social injustices.... I think. (which again I dont agree with at all)

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 10:10 AM
..

albfree
10-12-2017, 10:10 AM
It's all an illuminati conspiracy. While all of those evil crackers smile, and cheer, and pay out of the nose for exorbitantly priced season tickets and luxury boxes, they're plotting the demise of people of color.

European countries are admitting millions upon millions of refugees from africa and the middle east because they despise them. Europeans are paying billions upon billions in welfare benefits to starving, war torn child refugees because they can't stand the color of their skin.

Here in the US, white people demand sanctuary cities for illegal mexican immigrants because they hate the color of their skin. They are paying billions in welfare for illegal immigrants because they despise hispanic people.

And you know what? The tens of millions of illegal immigrants from mexico in the US KNOW that white people are evil. They KNOW white people hate brown people. That's why they're flooding the country. They love living in a country that despises them.

Black people hate being beneficiaries of affirmative action. Black rappers hate it when tens of millions of white people buy their music. Black athletes HATE becoming millionaires. Andre Iguodala HATES the white people who are advising him on his tech investments.

Evil whitey sure is plotting to destroy people of color. The evidence is overwhelming!

albfree
10-12-2017, 10:19 AM
Because athletes in pro sports is a completely accurate representation of society as a whole.

Hmm, the institution of slavery put or is it puts (past or present?) blacks at a disadvantage. Yet, capitalism sees no colors (present tense). Therefore, blacks are not at a disadvantage. Or they are at a disadvantage. Or both. Since, you claim both mutually exclusive claims are correct at the same time.

Both sentences were puts and sees. Current/ Ongoing tense. For the record, I personally was not arguing that blacks are at a disadvantage because of slavery. I restated others arguments. I do believe that true capitalism is not racist though.



Point is shoe companies will pay athletes to represent them who make them the most money. it doesnt prove they like or dislike blacks.



I didnt know they were complaining about white people. (with the exception of trump I guess, but not because he is white. They dont like the fact that he threatened their jobs over exercising a constitutional right)

Its a blurry message now, but originally they were protesting social injustices.... I think. (which again I dont agree with at all)

Sentences cannot put or see. Sentences are not subjects. Therefore, they can't put or see. Current/ongoing tense is an incomplete sentence. You misspelled others; it should be the possessive others'.

Capitalism cannot be racist or not racist since it is not a subject, but an institution.

Marx argued that the source of profit in capitalism in labour exploitation. As I said, the low wages of southeast asian labor is the source of capitalist profit for shoe companies.

The point is NO ONE knows what black athletes are complaining about since they've never specified. Kaepernick has never been willing to specify. None of the NFL players have specified. Curry, Lebron, nor any other player in the nba or nfl has identified a specific grievance.

Of course, they could cry "police brutality," but then again, blacks in the US commit half of all murders even though they are only 1/8 of the US population.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 10:25 AM
The point is NO ONE knows what black athletes are complaining about since they've never specified. Kaepernick has never been willing to specify. None of the NFL players have specified. Curry, Lebron, nor any other player in the nba or nfl has identified a specific grievance.

Of course, they could cry "police brutality," but then again, blacks in the US commit half of all murders even though they are only 1/8 of the US population.

I am on board with both of these points

albfree
10-12-2017, 10:38 AM
I am on board with both of these points

I'd actually like to see them talk about specific cases. The problem is, the more they dig, the less their cries of racism hold up.

Let's take the Philando Castille case. The officer involved was Geronimo Yanez, a Mexican American officer. Tough to blame whitey when the cop is mexican.

What about Alton Sterling. Sterling was armed and resisted officers' commands repeatedly. Not to mention that he had failed to register as a sex offender two years running and was not licensed to carry (felons can't carry firearms in LA).

The fact of the matter is that black people commit violent crimes at an astronomically high rate and this is a fact that black athletes don't want to address or acknowledge. Instead, they prefer to take the 'blame whitey' route by taking a knee or engaging in other such shenanigans.

Look at the extraordinarily long list of black felons in the nfl. It's absolutely embarrassing. If anything, NFL players should be protesting the amount of crimes NFL players are committing whether it's cold cocking their wife, torturing and slaughtering dogs, murder1, manslaughter, not to mention the endless string of rape allegations among college players, and so forth and so on.

If anything, ALL PEOPLE in the US should be protesting the crimes of NFL players.

Maybe Kaepernick could extend a word of gratitude to the white couple who adopted him. Or to the NFL owner who paid him millions. Or to the white coach who started him over a white quarterback. At the very least he could have the honesty and decency to name even one example of racism he encountered. No such luck. Kaepernick is a coward at best, a liar and con artist at worst.

Now Kaepernick wants back into the NFL! NFL players are now saying owners are racist for not employing him! In reality, NFL owners are trying to protect NFL players from knuckleheads like Kaepernick from destroying the brand which guarantees NFL players an average salary of $2.5 million!

You can't make this ish up.

albfree
10-12-2017, 10:47 AM
Let's be honest here. If Steph actually had a case, if he actually had some substantive knowledge of racism or police brutality, he would have been shouting it from the mountaintops. At the very least he would've had the gumption to face Trump and tell him in person that he was wrong; that racism and injustice are pervasive.

Instead, Steph took the coward's way out, implying Trump is a racist but without explaining why.

These players should be complaining instead about the thousands of black on black homicides each year and rampant violent crime which make every black neighborhood unliveable in the US. But they'll never do that because they are hypocrites.

They even complain about the use of the n word when they all use the n word themselves non stop! The hypocrisy is endless.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 10:58 AM
Let's be honest here. If Steph actually had a case, if he actually had some substantive knowledge of racism or police brutality, he would have been shouting it from the mountaintops. At the very least he would've had the gumption to face Trump and tell him in person that he was wrong; that racism and injustice are pervasive.

Instead, Steph took the coward's way out, implying Trump is a racist but without explaining why.

These players should be complaining instead about the thousands of black on black homicides each year and rampant violent crime which make every black neighborhood unliveable in the US. But they'll never do that because they are hypocrites.

They even complain about the use of the n word when they all use the n word themselves non stop! The hypocrisy is endless.

Yeah, I live here in the Bay Area and ive been a warriors fan since they drafted Chris Webber. I never heard an actual reason for them disliking Trump. They implied he was racist, but I assumed it was more because of the DACA situation. However, that was just my guess based on current events people were mad at Trump for.

Kinda getting away from kneeling for the anthem though

albfree
10-12-2017, 11:03 AM
Yeah, I live here in the Bay Area and ive been a warriors fan since they drafted Chris Webber. I never heard an actual reason for them disliking Trump. They implied he was racist, but I assumed it was more because of the DACA situation. However, that was just my guess based on current events people were mad at Trump for.

Kinda getting away from kneeling for the anthem though

Curry was asked about Trump's statements about NFL players in particular. Curry implied that Trump was a racist for criticizing nfl player protests, but wouldn't say so explicitly. I doubt very much that any of the warriors' players care about DACA or even understand what it's about.

I think the lakers and wolves' players were 'locking arms in unity' or some other nonsense. It's completely vague: nba players can't really get into the specifics or they'll wind up looking like idiots.

The bay area: oakland, richmond, vallejo have very high crime rates. Most of this is due to black and hispanic criminal activity. Of course, if they actually try to apprehend these criminals, they are immediately accused of 'racism.' And black and hispanic and asian police officers who apprehend black criminals somehow magically become racist white police officers as a result.

IndyRealist
10-12-2017, 11:54 AM
I'm sorry I can't anything someone says seriously if they have to make a dupe account to say it.

D-Leethal
10-12-2017, 12:44 PM
I think it's fair to bring up other minority groups that have had long histories of oppression and discrimination in this country and around the world and compare their current states to the current state of the African American community.

valade16
10-12-2017, 01:02 PM
I think it's fair to bring up other minority groups that have had long histories of oppression and discrimination in this country and around the world and compare their current states to the current state of the African American community.

It is fair, it's also fair to bring up why there is the disparity, as researchers have done:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/the-real-reason-americans-stopped-spitting-on-asian-americans-and-started-praising-them/?utm_term=.7fc916ebd3b9

Between 1940 and 1970, something remarkable happened to Asian Americans. Not only did they surpass African Americans in average household earnings, but they also closed the wage gap with whites.

Many people credit this upward mobility to investments in education. But according to a recent study by Brown University economist Nathaniel Hilger, schooling rates among Asian Americans didnít change all that significantly during those three decades. Instead, Hilgerís research suggests that Asian Americans started to earn more because their fellow Americans became less racist toward them.

How did that happen? About the same time that Asian Americans were climbing the socioeconomic ladder, they also experienced a major shift in their public image. At the outset of the 20th century, Asian Americans had often been portrayed as threatening, exotic and degenerate. But by the 1950s and 1960s, the idea of the model minority had begun to take root. Newspapers often glorified Asian Americans as industrious, law-abiding citizens who kept their heads down and never complained.

Some people think that racism toward Asians diminished because Asians ďproved themselvesĒ through their actions. But that is only a sliver of the truth. Then, as now, the stories of successful Asians were elevated, while the stories of less successful Asians were diminished. As historian Ellen Wu explains in her book, ďThe Color of Success,Ē the model minority stereotype has a fascinating origin story, one thatís tangled up in geopolitics, the Cold War and the civil rights movement.

To combat racism, minorities in the United States have often attempted to portray themselves as upstanding citizens capable of assimilating into mainstream culture. Asian Americans were no different, Wu writes. Some, like the Chinese, sought respectability by promoting stories about their obedient children and their traditional family values. The Japanese pointed to their wartime service as proof of their shared Americanness.

African Americans in the 1940s made very similar appeals. But in the postwar moment, Wu argues, it was only convenient for political leaders to hear the Asian voices.

The model minority narrative may have started with Asian Americans, but it was quickly co-opted by white politicians who saw it as a tool to win allies in the Cold War. Discrimination was not a good look on the international stage. Embracing Asian Americans ďprovided a powerful means for the United States to proclaim itself a racial democracy and thereby credentialed to assume the leadership of the free world,Ē Wu writes. Stories about Asian American success were turned into propaganda.

By the 1960s, anxieties about the civil right movement caused white Americans to further invest in positive portrayals of Asian Americans. The image of the hard-working Asian became an extremely convenient way to deny the demands of African Americans. As Wu describes in her book, both liberal and conservative politicians pumped up the image of Asian Americans as a way to shift the blame for black poverty. If Asians could find success within the system, politicians asked, why couldnít African Americans?

ďThe insinuation was that hard work along with unwavering faith in the government and liberal democracy as opposed to political protest were the keys to overcoming racial barriers as well as achieving full citizenship,Ē she writes.

Recently, Wu and I chatted on the phone about her book and the model minority stereotype ó how it was equal parts truth, propaganda and self-enforcing prophecy.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 01:47 PM
Asian crime gangs are more family oriented. It's blood in blood out for La Eme, BGF, AB, and Nuerstra Familia.

D-Leethal
10-12-2017, 02:26 PM
It is fair, it's also fair to bring up why there is the disparity, as researchers have done:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/the-real-reason-americans-stopped-spitting-on-asian-americans-and-started-praising-them/?utm_term=.7fc916ebd3b9

Between 1940 and 1970, something remarkable happened to Asian Americans. Not only did they surpass African Americans in average household earnings, but they also closed the wage gap with whites.

Many people credit this upward mobility to investments in education. But according to a recent study by Brown University economist Nathaniel Hilger, schooling rates among Asian Americans didnít change all that significantly during those three decades. Instead, Hilgerís research suggests that Asian Americans started to earn more because their fellow Americans became less racist toward them.

How did that happen? About the same time that Asian Americans were climbing the socioeconomic ladder, they also experienced a major shift in their public image. At the outset of the 20th century, Asian Americans had often been portrayed as threatening, exotic and degenerate. But by the 1950s and 1960s, the idea of the model minority had begun to take root. Newspapers often glorified Asian Americans as industrious, law-abiding citizens who kept their heads down and never complained.

Some people think that racism toward Asians diminished because Asians ďproved themselvesĒ through their actions. But that is only a sliver of the truth. Then, as now, the stories of successful Asians were elevated, while the stories of less successful Asians were diminished. As historian Ellen Wu explains in her book, ďThe Color of Success,Ē the model minority stereotype has a fascinating origin story, one thatís tangled up in geopolitics, the Cold War and the civil rights movement.

To combat racism, minorities in the United States have often attempted to portray themselves as upstanding citizens capable of assimilating into mainstream culture. Asian Americans were no different, Wu writes. Some, like the Chinese, sought respectability by promoting stories about their obedient children and their traditional family values. The Japanese pointed to their wartime service as proof of their shared Americanness.

African Americans in the 1940s made very similar appeals. But in the postwar moment, Wu argues, it was only convenient for political leaders to hear the Asian voices.

The model minority narrative may have started with Asian Americans, but it was quickly co-opted by white politicians who saw it as a tool to win allies in the Cold War. Discrimination was not a good look on the international stage. Embracing Asian Americans ďprovided a powerful means for the United States to proclaim itself a racial democracy and thereby credentialed to assume the leadership of the free world,Ē Wu writes. Stories about Asian American success were turned into propaganda.

By the 1960s, anxieties about the civil right movement caused white Americans to further invest in positive portrayals of Asian Americans. The image of the hard-working Asian became an extremely convenient way to deny the demands of African Americans. As Wu describes in her book, both liberal and conservative politicians pumped up the image of Asian Americans as a way to shift the blame for black poverty. If Asians could find success within the system, politicians asked, why couldnít African Americans?

ďThe insinuation was that hard work along with unwavering faith in the government and liberal democracy as opposed to political protest were the keys to overcoming racial barriers as well as achieving full citizenship,Ē she writes.

Recently, Wu and I chatted on the phone about her book and the model minority stereotype ó how it was equal parts truth, propaganda and self-enforcing prophecy.

I should have wrote "why", I honestly thought I did.

Interesting article, but it's laying out a pretty weak argument essentially saying the media hoodwinked the whites into looking at Asians in a better light and the media is keeping the whites racist against blacks with their negative coverage. Sounds like a very Trumpian "fake news treating me unfairly" argument.

D-Leethal
10-12-2017, 02:32 PM
I actually lean left on this issue, but you gotta be realistic at the same time. Generations of oppression UNDOUBTEDLY have a lot to do with their current state of affairs, but I think the African American community needs to bear some responsibility. The family unit is probably undoubtedly worse in the African American community vs other minorities. Broken families = broken communities. I also have a hard time blaming cops for having their guard up when they are patrolling in or responding to gang infested neighborhoods. I think it's damn near impossible to not have a certain racial perspective ingrained in the back of your head when you patrol those environments on a daily basis.

I mean, can you say with a straight face that cops patrolling inner city Chicago should not be on constant edge when patrolling that warzone?

D-Leethal
10-12-2017, 02:35 PM
As far as the thread goes, players should be able to protest all they want, but need to deal with the consequences if their boss tells them to cut out doing it on company time, the same way a barista at starbucks would get reprimanded or fired if they spouted off their political views or decided to protest in front of all their paying customers.

Saddletramp
10-12-2017, 02:42 PM
I was under the assumption that black people alive today had not been through slavery, but why let linear time get in the way of the progressive rhetoric. But hey, have you ever heard of the Irish Slave trade? Huge in the UK, but it was also huge in the US until the late 1700s.[/i]

And we were looked down on for generations(My heritage is Irish). You're talking about the late 1700's and I bought a sign dated 1911 that says HELP WANTED and underneath in smaller letters it says NO IRISH NEED APPLY.


it might, but I think a persons current day choices are far more likely to impact their lives today than the history of their ancestors. I dont think any judge would accept someone's ancestors past as an excuse for crimes they decide to commit today. (And please dont say thats cuz they are racist)

And you won't know until you're in their shoes. But keep saying how you know how others should act while you just casually brush off centuries of racism, slavery, Jim Crow laws, civil rights, etc....


Is it effecting the Irish?
Different races look down at other races for all sorts of reasons. There are blacks out there that just hate all whites (even white people whos ancestors didnt enter the country until after slavery). My great Grandpa use to hate Japanese people because he was a survivor from Pear Harbor. (Japanese people are doing fine in this country btw)

So that's where you get it from.


I personally dont understand why the left as a whole is so triggered by the civil war. Democrats wanted to keep slavery.

Read a history book. Stopped being duped. Slavery and emancipation was more than just the South wanting cheap labor and the North thinking that it was cruel to black people.


Well if it was her great great great great great grandma who had the miscarriage, and she was worried about it and talking about it every day.... it might annoy me

Not what I said but regardless you sound like an awful human being. You have a lot to learn.

Vinylman
10-12-2017, 02:42 PM
I'm sorry I can't anything someone says seriously if they have to make a dupe account to say it.

I have been trying to figure out who it is... got a couple of ideas but not quite ready to commit to who I think it is yet

tredigs
10-12-2017, 03:56 PM
totally agree that it is arbitrary... maybe the solution should have been greater enforcement in the white community rather than less enforcement in the black community...

not saying I agree with the above approach... just offering it up

Im done with this thread for the most part, but I'm not a fan of this analogy at all. A more apt one to your point would be "I know your grandmother had a miscarriage, but why don't we go ahead and give it our best?".

valade16
10-12-2017, 03:56 PM
I should have wrote "why", I honestly thought I did.

Interesting article, but it's laying out a pretty weak argument essentially saying the media hoodwinked the whites into looking at Asians in a better light and the media is keeping the whites racist against blacks with their negative coverage. Sounds like a very Trumpian "fake news treating me unfairly" argument.

There are other links embedded in the article that go into detail on the study, rest assured it is far more than simply media hoodwinking.

During those decades, Asian rates of education didn't increase hardly at all and yet their pay in similar fields as black workers increased comparatively. Economically, Asian people started getting paid more for the same work as black people.

It's the opposite of Trumpian as it's based on actual research.

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:20 PM
I actually lean left on this issue, but you gotta be realistic at the same time. Generations of oppression UNDOUBTEDLY have a lot to do with their current state of affairs, but I think the African American community needs to bear some responsibility. The family unit is probably undoubtedly worse in the African American community vs other minorities. Broken families = broken communities. I also have a hard time blaming cops for having their guard up when they are patrolling in or responding to gang infested neighborhoods. I think it's damn near impossible to not have a certain racial perspective ingrained in the back of your head when you patrol those environments on a daily basis.

I mean, can you say with a straight face that cops patrolling inner city Chicago should not be on constant edge when patrolling that warzone?

The simple fact of the matter tl, dr summary is that blacks are far more violent than whites and asians. From 80 to 08, blacks committed 52% of all homicides in the US despite the fact they were only 12% of the US population. Whites committed only 45% of all homicides. Blacks committed homicides at 8X the rate of whites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

FBI data from 76 to 05 shows a 51 vs 46% split for whites and blacks but it's clear that blacks commit roughly half of all murders even though they are only 1/8 of the US population.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htius.pdf

This is not an issue of economic opportunity. High income blacks commit more crime than poor whites:

http://www.craveonline.com/design/1229291-jontron-wealthy-blacks-commit-crime-poor-whites

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/03/wealthy_black_kids_more_likely.html

NFL players for example are notorious for their violent crimes: animal cruelty, manslaughter, multiple homicides, spousal abuse etc, yet their average income is $2.5 million annually (more like $5 to $7.5 million per 12 months). The crimes of black college football players are routinely swept under the rug by university administrations.

Black athletes simply refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Instead of manning up and admitting to the horrific propensity for crime in their own communities, they cover it up or cop out and blame whitey.

Sadly rich white owners and college alumni are often enablers for black athletes who commit crimes. Take Jerry Buss and Kobe Bryant. Kobe Bryant (allegedly) raped a young woman in colorado and later apologized for the rape. Was he ever suspended by the NBA or by the Lakers? No. Instead, the Lakers chartered a private jet for Kobe Bryant and black and white fans defended him and sent death threats to his accuser.

Colin Kaepernick has also been the beneficiary of white compassion and generosity. His Black daddy left him and his mommy before he was even born. He was adopted by white parents. He was made a multi millionaire by a white owner. He was named a starter by a white coach while a white quarterback was demoted then later traded. Tens of thousands of white fans cheered for him live every other weekend. But his black lives matter honeypot girlfriend messed with his mind and now he claims whitey is evil and all cops are pigs (maybe not the hispanic or black or asian ones?).

Certainly Blacks don't complain about the cushy six figure government jobs they enjoy in DC thanks to affirmative action. They don't mind being beneficiaries of affirmative action in higher education esp at elite universities. They don't complain about TANF or free housing programs or food stamps which they enjoy disproportionately.

Blacks are first hired and last fired in federal jobs, granted enormous preferential treatment in college admissions, and are preferential hires in the private sector. I happen to be privy to college admissions test scores and black and hispanic students often were admitted into elite schools with SAT scores many hundreds of points lower than their white and esp. asian peers.

To put it simply there is overwhelming evidence demonstrating conclusively that blacks are not discriminated AGAINST but that whites and asians are discriminated against in higher education and the labor force. Despite this, asians have the highest incomes in the US and blacks among the lowest. No matter how much the government or private sector helps blacks they underperform vs whites and asians by a very wide margin.

There is nothing for black athletes to protest. If anything they should be protesting against the massive rates of violent crimes committed by black people in general and by black athletes in particular.

These so called protests are a total crock designed to divert attention from the ugliness of Black crime in the US. Whites can only be guilt tripped for so long. The NFL has taken a huge reputation hit and I suspect the NBA will follow in step, although one can hope they won't be as dumb.

White fans are tired of all of the whining, complaining and guilt tripping by entitled millionaire black players. White fans are walking away from the game. If anything, white former fans should thank these black players for protesting the anthem as more and more white people are coming to their senses.

If a single NFL or NBA player had a legitimate grievance, they would have filed criminal charges along with hate crime lawsuits, garnering both positive attention not to mention untold millions of dollars in court awards.

The fact of the matter is that black people have been compensated and overcompensated many times over in the past 5 decades. They are given preferential treatment in every way possible. They show their gratitude with endless complaints, protests and riots over "mistreatment" and police brutality. They complain about violence by burning down their own communities and attacking police and innocent whites. Enough is enough.

Most NFL and NBA fans are not only white, but liberals, and many have been conditioned to be communists by college and university professors. They are extremely sympathetic to black people and their so-called plight. But even white liberals and communists have their limits.

Even Bernie Sanders was attacked by black lives matter, and Bernie Bro is a f------ communist! Really, there is no way to placate black people. Even if you pay black people tens or hundreds of millions of dollars they will still complain about how evil whitey is. But, they have no problem cashing whitey's checks or marrying white women and they refuse to live with their own people, preferring to live in gated uspcale, white neighborhoods.

Black people instinctively understand white people are prone to guilt and they drive in this screw to the hilt. White guilt seems to have no limits so it seems this circus will continue indefinitely. But at some point whites will reach their limits and fight back. Or maybe they will just walk away. At that point, black athletes will be left with nothing. And they can't even manage to hold on to their money now after earning tens of millions.

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:46 PM
As far as the thread goes, players should be able to protest all they want, but need to deal with the consequences if their boss tells them to cut out doing it on company time, the same way a barista at starbucks would get reprimanded or fired if they spouted off their political views or decided to protest in front of all their paying customers.

What's ironic is that commissioners are actually trying to protect the players from THEMSELVES. Professional leagues don't exist without their fans. The NFL and NBA need fans. They need fans to buy tickets and watch games on TV. Most fans are white. Many will stop watching and attending games if black players disrespect the flag and the country and all of the institutions which made these black players rich.

The US was built by whites. Basketball and football are games created by white people. Almost all owners are white. Almost all coaches are white. Almost all paying fans are white. For black players to disrespect everything white people have built, to spit on the patronage of whites, to totally disregard the level of reverence whites show for black athletes, is a thorough insult. I haven't even mentioned the enormous fortunes paid out to black athletes without a moment's hesitation.

Joel Embiid just inked a $178 million contract. He's only played 30 games! He's guaranteed half of that even if he never plays again! Embiid reportedly refused to play in the preseason without signing a deal even though he's currently under contract! The arrogance of black athletes is beyond comprehension.

Andrew Wiggins just signed a $150 million contract. Dude even fired his own agent who negotiated his max deal!

Then there was fat shaq who refused to get necessary surgery in the offseason, opting to get surgery and recover DURING the season even though he was making $30 million a season!

There is simply nothing you can do to please black people. They always want more. And the more they get, the more they hate and complain about whitey. There must be a breaking point and we are getting closer to that point with each passing day.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 08:54 PM
What's ironic is that commissioners are actually trying to protect the players from THEMSELVES. Professional leagues don't exist without their fans. The NFL and NBA need fans. They need fans to buy tickets and watch games on TV. Most fans are white. Many will stop watching and attending games if black players disrespect the flag and the country and all of the institutions which made these black players rich.


Ill buy that.



The US was built by whites. Basketball and football are games created by white people. Almost all owners are white. Almost all coaches are white. Almost all paying fans are white. For black players to disrespect everything white people have built, to spit on the patronage of whites, to totally disregard the level of reverence whites show for black athletes, is a thorough insult. I haven't even mentioned the enormous fortunes paid out to black athletes without a moment's hesitation.

I dont like this at all. Sounds like you are saying everyone should respect the flag because white people respect the flag and white people built this country. I dont think anybody should feel obligated to respect a flag since "white people respect it". There are plenty of white people on board with these BS protests as well.


Joel Embiid just inked a $178 million contract. He's only played 30 games! He's guaranteed half of that even if he never plays again! Embiid reportedly refused to play in the preseason without signing a deal even though he's currently under contract! The arrogance of black athletes is beyond comprehension.

Why do you have to say black athletes?


Andrew Wiggins just signed a $150 million contract. Dude even fired his own agent who negotiated his max deal!

Then there was fat shaq who refused to get necessary surgery in the offseason, opting to get surgery and recover DURING the season even though he was making $30 million a season!

There is simply nothing you can do to please black people. They always want more. And the more they get, the more they hate and complain about whitey. There must be a breaking point and we are getting closer to that point with each passing day.

Yeah this is all starting to sound very much like white supremacy. You have made some good points in the thread, but I dont think directly attacking individual black athletes is necessary to show this protest as BS

albfree
10-12-2017, 09:15 PM
Ill buy that.




I dont like this at all. Sounds like you are saying everyone should respect the flag because white people respect the flag and white people built this country. I dont think anybody should feel obligated to respect a flag since "white people respect it". There are plenty of white people on board with these BS protests as well.



Why do you have to say black athletes?



Yeah this is all starting to sound very much like white supremacy. You have made some good points, but I dont think directly attacking individual black athletes is necessary to show this protest as BS

Are you saying white athletes are protesting the flag in large numbers? White athletes who 'protest' are taking a knee under duress: they don't want to alienate their black teammates. Derek Carr refused to take a knee. We all know what happened to him.

I'm not saying anyone SHOULD respect the flag. I am pointing out that it is in the financial interest of black millionaire athletes not to.

I'm not attacking black athletes. I'm saying white owners bend over backwards to please them and these players still cry racism.

Ex. Kobe Bryant raped a white teenage girl in Colorado (allegedly). He faced no penalties or sanctions by the league or by the Lakers. Instead, the Lakers paid for a private chartered jet to and from Colorado for his legal proceedings. He was not traded. He was not banned from the league. He faced no penalties of any kind. White fans defended him against the allegations of a white teen girl. The lakers even gave him a nice little nest egg retirement package to the tune of $50 million for his final two seasons, destroying their ability to compete, probably for the next decade.

Kobe would take a knee despite the $300 million the buss family paid him. Despite their unwavering support of him even with rape allegations.

Ex. Steph Curry. Curry supports the NFL protests. He doesn't even know what they're protesting against. Neither do the NFL players. The $200 million guaranteed from the white owners of the Warriors doesn't matter much, does it?

Lebron supports the NFL protests. He's being paid a billion dollars to play basketball and wear sneakers by Nike.

It is black athletes who are protesting the anthem, who are pressuring their white teammates into protesting, and complain about police brutality while refusing to acknowledge the crimes THEY have committed as players.

I don't believe in white supremacy or black supremacy or asian supremacy. Each group is superior in it's own way. Blacks are superior at basketball and football. Asians have superior intelligence. Whites have created societies which offer the greatest freedom. East Asians have created the safest societies. No racial group is superior in every respect.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 09:30 PM
albfree- IM ok with anyone supporting a protest or protesting, but atleast specify what you are protesting. Also if you dont know anything about a case other then the trendy bias headline "Black man brutally killed by cop"- why should anyone take your protesting of that case seriously.

I guess those reasons are why I am against this protest- not because lebron makes ex amount of money and bla bla.

Granted- I dont think the players all did it for police brutality, it became a trendy pissing contest. (Honestly, anybody who had sincere belief in the original protest of kaepernick should be offended that the protest was hijacked for a big dog and pony show)

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 09:32 PM
I don't believe in white supremacy or black supremacy or asian supremacy. Each group is superior in it's own way. Blacks are superior at basketball and football. Asians have superior intelligence. Whites have created societies which offer the greatest freedom. East Asians have created the safest societies. No racial group is superior in every respect.

I didnt see this until just now....... wow

albfree
10-12-2017, 09:40 PM
I'm 100% fine with player protests. It's an honest expression about how they feel about the flag and what it stands for: the USA which is a white christian invention. The government, language, political, economic and cultural institutions are all Anglo European Christian in origin.

Blaming white people for all of Black people's problems is a convenient device for ducking responsibility for their own behavior.

I don't think this issue is going away any time soon. But there's no way Silver allows the players to destroy everything he and stern and the owners built. Not if they can help it anyway. I'm 90-95% certain that the NBA can contain the potential for disruptive player protests. But I'm not absolutely certain.

if the NBA goes into a tailspin (not likely), I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's just an entertainment conglomerate: hardly essential for any functioning society. If anything, it's demise would probably be far healthier for our country in the long run. We would face one less distraction from our incredibly severe problems. We would have to face our problems head on rather than taking constant breaks to distract ourselves.

Most players cant hang on to their fortunes anyway. 78% of nfl players and 60% of nba players go broke in less than 5 years post retirement. I'm curious what the states are 10 and 20 years out.

albfree
10-12-2017, 09:52 PM
I didnt see this until just now....... wow

European societies have the lowest levels of perceived corruption:

http://www.transparency.org.nz/images/2017/CPI2016_map%20and%20country%20results_flyout.jpg

Asian societies have the lowest level of homicide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

East Asian societies have the highest IQ scores:

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

We already know blacks dominate collegiate and professional basketball and football.

albfree
10-12-2017, 10:09 PM
https://theundefeated.com/features/white-american-nba-players/

Interesting article on the discrimination and stereotyping white players face.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 10:21 PM
European societies have the lowest levels of perceived corruption:

http://www.transparency.org.nz/images/2017/CPI2016_map%20and%20country%20results_flyout.jpg

Asian societies have the lowest level of homicide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

East Asian societies have the highest IQ scores:

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

We already know blacks dominate collegiate and professional basketball and football.

yeah, just when people talk about supremacy of a race- those arent the things they are looking at

albfree
10-12-2017, 10:54 PM
That's what the Warriors were meeting on and talking about doing if they went. Trump - child that he is - said that because they were discussing it as a team he was removing their invitation.

This is completely false. Curry stated openly that the only reason for the team meeting was to tell the team NOT to attend. The meeting was merely a pretense and a formality; the warriors weren't going to go no matter what.

Once it became clear (and Curry to his discredit was very coy and passive aggressive in his statements) that the Warriors would not attend after Curry spoke publicly about the issue, then and only then did Trump rescind the offer.

Trump did NOT rescind the invitation because they were meeting about the issue, it was because Curry, in his own cowardly, passive aggressive way, implied that Trump was a racist for criticizing nfl player protests and because he strongly implied he and his teammates would not attend.

Trump is critical of ALL anti-nationalist, anti-patriotic subversion and disloyalty, it doesn't matter whether the communists are black or white or red or yellow.

Ultimately, black people are loyal to their own to a fault. Oddly enough, this applies just as much if not more so for half blacks like Obama and Curry.

albfree
10-12-2017, 11:06 PM
yeah, just when people talk about supremacy of a race- those arent the things they are looking at

Actually, yes these are generally recognized criteria: physical, intellectual/technological and cultural/political.

I can't wave a magic wand erasing all racial differences overnight. That is in the realm of fantasy. All available evidence suggests the races are different and that these differences are biologically based.

Ultimately, there is nothing that can be done to lower black crime levels to white and asian levels. And that is why so many blacks are killed by police officers of ALL races. It's because they commit violent crimes at a disproportionately high rate and therefore police are forced to use lethal force far more often with blacks than with other racial groups.

Take a look at the GLOBAL homicide rates I cited earlier. Black homicide rates are 4.5X as high compared to Europeans and Asians. American homicide rates (mestizos and indians) are nearly 5.5X the rate of Europeans and Asians.

Conversely, Asians and Blacks are represented at rates of 0.2% and 75% in the NBA. 22% of nba players are White. This is clearly due to biological differences between the races.

Nonetheless, let the players protest. It will simply expose the fact that they are extremely ungrateful as well as terribly ill informed.

albfree
10-12-2017, 11:19 PM
We are a terribly oppressive nation in many respects, and the African community has certainly felt the full wrath of that oppression. They DO deserve more. They also need to demand MUCH more from themselves (looking at the grown men) if they want to rise up as a whole. Hopefully now that some of the nation's most powerful men are black will prove to change things.

Terribly oppressive? The US, Europe, NZ, Australia and Iceland are far and away the world leaders in human rights, animal rights and environmental protection.

You get caught as a drug trafficker in China and you face immediate execution. A final meal, a blindfold and execution by firing squad. Chinese censorship of any government criticism is nearly total.

Europe has opened it's borders to millions upon millions of African and muslim "child refugees," many of them well into their 40's, providing them with free housing, free food, free health care, child support subsidies, and this is only the official governmental support, discounting the largesse of private citizens and charitable aid.

There is virtually no border protection in the US: pregnant mexican moms pop right over the border for free hospital care, guaranteeing citizenship and welfare benefits for their child, and eventual permanent residence for the rest of the family. The legal children of illegals receive free food and health care under this loophole.

Blacks receive affirmative action in every arena of so-called competition, undermining meritocracy in school and work. Blacks receive massive food aid, health care and free housing benefits.

European societies are far and away the most free and the most generous in aid to foreigners.

Meanwhile muslims throw gays off rooftops, force women to wear veils, forbid them from driving, prevent them from working, and they openly engage in human trafficking: both slavery and sex traffic.

The US and European societies are not perfect, but they are so much more generous than any other countries there is simply no comparison.

If anything, black people should be holding protests against all of the black on black violence. At least 90% of all black homicides are committed by fellow blacks.

The greatest danger to black people are black people. NFL and NBA players should be holding protests against black people.

And blacks don't "deserve" anything more than anyone else: they are guaranteed and deserve protection under the constitution. They DO NOT deserve reparations during slavery. They were not guaranteed constitutional protection as citizens, therefore there is no compensation to offer.

If reparations WERE granted for "moral" reasons then we must factor in the tens or hundreds of billions of dollars in aid blacks have already received under federal housing support, free food benefits, free health care, not to mention affirmative action benefits in higher ed and work.

Let's not forget that Abe Lincoln proposed African countries which would be supported logistically by the US for former slaves who agreed to expatriate. Blacks flatly refused. Imagine that. If the US was so disgusting and unjust, if white people so unfair and evil, then why would blacks want to live amongst them or even alongside them? Simple: whites guaranteed a far higher quality of life for blacks, even if blacks had to accept second class status.

People vote with their feet: blacks refused to leave white societies. And when they expelled whites from majority black societies, those societies collapsed. Witness Haiti and South Africa.

likemystylez
10-12-2017, 11:31 PM
.

[QUOTE]Ultimately, there is nothing that can be done to lower black crime levels to white and asian levels. And that is why so many blacks are killed by police officers of ALL races. It's because they commit violent crimes at a disproportionately high rate and therefore police are forced to use lethal force far more often with blacks than with other racial groups.


Absolute Bull ****, there is tons that can be done. Better policing (which unfortunately will lead to more of these BS protests, and people on the left complaining about the disproportionate amount of blacks in prison). Improving culture, values, priorities in black families. Staying in school, Graduating Highschool.

BLM should be using their resources to create scholarships, build the futures of young ambitious black people. Work to create as many opportunities to as possible. Give as much real hope and support to the black youth and encourage them to make good choices. And most importantly, BLM should denounce the types of illegal activity that is getting so many blacks in this country into trouble with the cops.

Black Lives Matter could do so much good if they had better leadership and used their resources on things that COULD make a difference. I dont think it would happen over night, but there could be huge changes.

albfree
10-12-2017, 11:45 PM
[QUOTE=albfree;31906086].




Absolute Bull ****, there is tons that can be done. Better policing (which unfortunately will lead to more of these BS protests, and people on the left complaining about the disproportionate amount of blacks in prison). Improving culture, values, priorities in black families. Staying in school, Graduating Highschool.

BLM should be using their resources to create scholarships, build the futures of young ambitious black people. Work to create as many opportunities to as possible. Give as much real hope and support to the black youth and encourage them to make good choices. And most importantly, BLM should denounce the types of illegal activity that is getting so many blacks in this country into trouble with the cops.

Black Lives Matter could do so much good if they had better leadership and used their resources on things that COULD make a difference. I dont think it would happen over night, but there could be huge changes.

OK, let's entertain this possibility. There was actually only one historical period in which black homicide levels were at record lows: slavery. So, the only way to prevent disproportionately high rates of black criminality is by enslaving them.

Somehow, I don't think this would be a palatable political option. Or, how about the lynch mob? Do you think that would be politically acceptable as way to deal with homicides and rapes committed by blacks?

Increasing the police force to deal with black crime is theoretically possible but so expensive it would destroy the US financially. Keep in mind that the cost to hire a 1st year police officer in a small town is at minimum $100K to $150K annually. Minimum. Double that in a major city, and double it again after 5-10 years of service instead of hiring rookies every few years. Then double the expenses again to pay for retirement expenses.

Then you would have to support more jails and prisons. A prisoner costs 2X or 3X as much to support as a student in a public university. This means paying for correctional officers, counselors, psychiatrists, probation officers and so on.

The cost of preventing black crime adequately is exorbitant. It is effectively impossible. It would lead to economic collapse of every cit, county, and state government with significant black populations.

Now, we haven't even addressed HISPANIC criminality. Hispanic criminals, esp. the Mexican Mafia and MS13 are just as dangerous if not more so than black criminals.

The fact of the matter is, Blacks and Hispanics constitute an enormous drain in every respect on US society. The US is well on it's way to to being completely destroyed.

There really is no solution to black criminality which is economically feasible. I wish it were otherwise, but wishful thinking won't get you or I or anyone else anywhere.

Actually, this discussion should remind us that Australia was a former penal colony. Now it is one of the most successful, safest and prosperous countries in the world.

Meanwhile, Liberia, composed of former black US slaves, is one of the poorest countries in the world. As a matter of fact, the former black slaves enslaved the native blacks once they were freed!

albfree
10-13-2017, 03:02 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/12/nfls-anthem-protests-may-be-starting-to-hit-foxs-bottom-line.html

Fox is facing declining revenue due a 7% ratings drop through 5 weeks of play.


I wrote that the nba has a 90-95% chance of avoiding the PR disaster the nfl is facing but I'm starting to think that there's a higher chance than that.

Kobe Bryant has said he supports the protests. So has Curry. The Wolves and Lakers are protesting in "unity." The demographics of the NBA and NFL are broadly similar. I think the nba players will find a way to demonstrate their racial loyalty and to otherwise undermine their own interests.

Trump is going to remain outspoken and openly antagonistic to nfl protestors. This increases the likelihood that nba players will try to find some way to show their allegiance to black nfl players.

The nfl protests have dragged out for close to a year and a half now. The league waited far too long to address the issue and with Trump weighing in vs the players on a nearly daily basis, both sides are hopelessly dug in.

I say there's at least a 25% chance nba players protest in some significant, noticeable way which will harm their own interests. The bait of trump's tweets will be irresistible.

Vinylman
10-13-2017, 07:32 AM
Im done with this thread for the most part, but I'm not a fan of this analogy at all. A more apt one to your point would be "I know your grandmother had a miscarriage, but why don't we go ahead and give it our best?".

I had agreed with the prior poser that it was arbitrary... I was merely pointing out that the alternative to less enforcing in the Black Community would be increased enforcement in other communities...

At the end of the day if you are going to have laws on the books you need to enforce them equally... if you aren't there is no point in having the law.

albfree
10-13-2017, 08:18 AM
Law enforcement is under constant political pressure NOT to enforce the law in black communities.

1. numerous cities are paying out enormous multi million settlement suits to black families even when the police followed proper procedure.

2. proper police action can lead to massive rioting and looting, again, potentially costing a city millions, not simply in property damage but costing them future revenue from tourism and conferences.

3. specific police officers can be fired, again, even if they acted within the law.


The families of individuals shot by the police probably feel like they've won the lottery, especially if there is any "controversial" video footage they can post to facebook and youtube.

It seems blacks are masterful at destroying their own futures and communities with impulsive criminal behavior and rioting.

There isn't a single neighborhood in which blacks constitute a majority which hasn't been completely destroyed. Compton, Watts, Inglewood, South Central, Baltimore, Oakland, Richmond, southside Chicago, among others are neighborhoods destroyed by drugs, poverty, welfare dependence, single moms, gangs, violent and petty crime of all sorts.

All of the homes, apartments and businesses are in a state of disrepair, or neglect, if not total ruin. Not to mention that blacks will riot at the drop of a hat, as we've witnessed in baltimore, milwaukee, charlotte, ferguson, among many other cities.

Once blacks burn their own neighborhoods or entire cities to the ground and have looted everything that isn't bolted down, they then demand "government programs" which is codeword for white handouts, due to all of the "oppression" they've faced historically.

Things calm down for a few months or a couple of years, then the violent cycle begins all over again. A black guy points a gun at a cop, gets shot, blacks burn their own neighborhoods down, then demand government programs, etc.

It's all too predictable. Now the players are entertaining the notion of doing the very same thing on a much larger scale by destroying the billion dollar sports franchises which are making them millionaires, even billionaires in some cases, all in some petty ego struggle to defy whitey Trump.

Personally, I find all of these shenanigans hilarious. It doesn't matter how much money you give to blacks. At some point, they're going to destroy everything they receive anyway. We're already witnessing it in the nfl, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it happened in the nba also.

likemystylez
10-13-2017, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=likemystylez;31906277]

OK, let's entertain this possibility. There was actually only one historical period in which black homicide levels were at record lows: slavery. So, the only way to prevent disproportionately high rates of black criminality is by enslaving them.

Somehow, I don't think this would be a palatable political option. Or, how about the lynch mob? Do you think that would be politically acceptable as way to deal with homicides and rapes committed by blacks?

Increasing the police force to deal with black crime is theoretically possible but so expensive it would destroy the US financially. Keep in mind that the cost to hire a 1st year police officer in a small town is at minimum $100K to $150K annually. Minimum. Double that in a major city, and double it again after 5-10 years of service instead of hiring rookies every few years. Then double the expenses again to pay for retirement expenses.

Then you would have to support more jails and prisons. A prisoner costs 2X or 3X as much to support as a student in a public university. This means paying for correctional officers, counselors, psychiatrists, probation officers and so on.

The cost of preventing black crime adequately is exorbitant. It is effectively impossible. It would lead to economic collapse of every cit, county, and state government with significant black populations.

Now, we haven't even addressed HISPANIC criminality. Hispanic criminals, esp. the Mexican Mafia and MS13 are just as dangerous if not more so than black criminals.

The fact of the matter is, Blacks and Hispanics constitute an enormous drain in every respect on US society. The US is well on it's way to to being completely destroyed.

There really is no solution to black criminality which is economically feasible. I wish it were otherwise, but wishful thinking won't get you or I or anyone else anywhere.

Actually, this discussion should remind us that Australia was a former penal colony. Now it is one of the most successful, safest and prosperous countries in the world.

Meanwhile, Liberia, composed of former black US slaves, is one of the poorest countries in the world. As a matter of fact, the former black slaves enslaved the native blacks once they were freed!

This is the crap thinking that leads to Genocide, and I hope no blacks reading this believe a word of this BS. It implies that blacks as a group dont have the capacity to make good choices in life. its a result of poor culture from generations on combined with poor decisions to stop the cycle. It isnt in their DNA

albfree
10-13-2017, 09:23 AM
[QUOTE=albfree;31906438]

This is the crap thinking that leads to Genocide, and I hope no blacks reading this believe a word of this BS. It implies that blacks as a group dont have the capacity to make good choices in life. its a result of poor culture from generations on combined with poor decisions to stop the cycle. It isnt in their DNA

This is a figment of your imagination. No one is proposing genocide. Talk about hitting the panic button.

What is necessary however, is for higher trust societies/industrialized/technologically advanced/low crime cultures to to have their own societies in order for them to thrive in an environment with relatively safety.

Blacks have had their own societies for tens of thousands of years, and will continue to do so. But whites and asians deserve to be sovereign peoples who are not subject to constant invasions from jews, muslims, blacks, hispanics and other groups who are not able to function within or contribute to western and east asian civilizations.

The more blacks and muslims and hispanics entering western societies, the more likely they are to fail. Brazil and Argentina were once European colonial societies and both have fallen to ruin. California was once thought of as a paradise, full of gorgeous blondes and spectacular coastal scenery. Now it has been completely invaded by Mexicans and would've collapsed long ago had not rich whites and jews established northern and southern high tech and entertainment economic bases.

Can blacks sustain anything resembling a civilization of their own in the future? Even if they can't they should be allowed to try. But neither are they entitled to be a part of european or asian societies. The negative consequences are far too severe to allow for their ongoing participation.

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

As far as black IQ's, their average is a bit above 70, with the range being anywhere from 59 to 87. White nations have IQ's between 90 and 102 and east asians have IQ's between 104 and 108.

As I said earlier, you can easily predict the wealth of a nation, average rates of crime and level of technological development based upon IQ alone. Blacks overall have an IQ one or two standard deviations below that of whites and east asians. They are simply not capable of maintaining industrialized much less technologically advanced societies. They are capable of maintaining pastoral, agrarian or rural societies, ie pre-industrial societies. This doesn't make them bad people. But it does mean that they are not compatible with white and east asian civilizations.

There is no such thing as an african or black automobile manufacturing company, much less an african or black high tech firm of any kind. These are exclusively asian and white endeavors.

To a large extent, biology is destiny, at least on the aggregate, population level.

You can see this in operation in the nba and nfl. Virtually the entirety of nfl and nba governance and ownership are in white and jewish hands. There are a few token blacks here and there (magic and michael) but overall both leagues are run by whites and jews.

Not only is there a gap between asian and white vs african societies, the gap will probably grow over time. China engages in a very aggressive eugenics policy, meaning wealth accrues to the best and brightest, and these families are encouraged to have the most children.

https://www.edge.org/response-detail/23838

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/5gw8vn/chinas-taking-over-the-world-with-a-massive-genetic-engineering-program

While China is engineering hyper genius babies and weeding out defective genes, poor, dependent africans are reproducing at astronomical rates, threatening to overwhelm neighboring societies (namely europe).

I am glad that you mentioned genetics. The chinese have a huge advantage already and are poised to create an even larger gap in the future. In the future, blacks will essentially become a source of slave labor for the Chinese and the continent a source from which to exploit minerals and petroleum.

Instead of living in a fantasy world where you delude yourself into believing all races are equal, better to acknowledge the genetic disparities between races and try to do something to correct the competitive gap. Instead of engaging in eugenics, blacks are a dysgenic population, reproducing low IQ blacks in mass.

There is not really much hope for the black race. The most intelligent blacks are in the US but they have proven so belligerent to the notion of any systematic program of self improvement, their plight is almost equally hopeless. The only reason blacks have any hope at all is because whites have propped up their communities from total collapse for centuries now. Or else they would've suffered the same fate as haiti and south africa, both of which have descended into total squalor and chaos.

tredigs
10-13-2017, 08:46 PM
I had agreed with the prior poser that it was arbitrary... I was merely pointing out that the alternative to less enforcing in the Black Community would be increased enforcement in other communities...

At the end of the day if you are going to have laws on the books you need to enforce them equally... if you aren't there is no point in having the law.

You might be confusing black community with poor community and/or high crime community. Regardless, feel free to prove your point with facts - I am all ears.

nastynice
10-13-2017, 11:04 PM
[
People like you look at ending numbers and assume the system is racist and thats why they are the way they are. Affirmative action is a hand out, and more importantly it is racist towards individuals who did not participate in slavery........ I thought treating races differently is what blacks of all people would want to stop. Lets see if 700,000 black go to war and fight for the end of affirmative action and the unequal treatment of american citizens like white people (predominantly republicans btw) did for blacks. Larry Elder is the only black person with a platform that I have heard repeatedly against affirmative action.



Why are white people getting divorced more now than in 1960 then? Why isnt this an issue in the Jewish community who were in a similar position as slaves even more recently than slavery was legal?



I believe black people making smart choices with their lives will get them out of that situation. Dropping out of school, black men not assisting in the upbringing of their children, participating in off the charts level of other crimes (Per capita) are things that I believe are in the control of black people.

I seen the real estate in industry too and everyone's was ****ing of, appraiser pulling numbers out their ***, banks knowingly pushing those numbers through..there was a lotta **** going on



Im 100% for treating everybody as equals and holding everyone accountable for their current actions. It just makes more sense than trying to rectify the past. No matter what- slavery will always have existed. For gods sake, we just had a black president for 2 consecutive terms.

The real gripe with the kneeling is that they say that colin kaepernick said he was kneeling because of how our police force was treating african americans. "They're getting away with murder". I believe he was referencing primarily Mike Brown, Alton Sterling, Sylville Smith, and Philando Castile. All of those cases had indepth trials with jurys from predominantly democratic communities, with the exception of Alton Sterling (No charges pressed because Sterling had a gun, he was repeatedly asked to put the gun down by officers who were there to arrest him- Police are warranted to use deadly force in that situation)

Now what bothers me is that the original protest was JUST protesting the result of the trial. a Black person was killed and the offender didnt go to jail so the system must be racist. It was clear he didnt have any knowledge of the case other than the 3 sentences he read in some race war baiting left wing news paper. Now if he brought up an actual piece of evidence or testimony that he thought clearly proved there was racism or the police officer was given a huge break on some specific section of the transcripts- then hed be worth listening too. But complaining just because he didnt like the result- thats almost as bad as the rams running around lying about the mike brown case saying hands up dont shoot. That **** pisses me off and spreads racism that isnt based on facts or reality at all

Personally I have read the transcripts from those court cases, and followed them very closely and I didnt see anything glaring. Its not cuz im racist towards blacks either. I thought George Zimmrman should have been charged with Involuntary Manslaughter based on the non hear say evidence. I thought his decisions were made recklessly, he failed to follow a direct order from the police, and he put himself and an innocent person in danger. how exactly the fight went doesnt matter all that much to me because I dont think Zimmerman should have followed him at all.

It doesn't make sense for blacks to want to end affirmative action. With the odds against you so bad already, why wouldnt you want to use whatever advantage you have? I've never seen business owners fight against advantages and breaks given by the govt, why should they?

It's not an issue in the Jewish community because the Jewish community is one of the most informed, capable and on point communities in the history of mankind. They are a chosen people, after all. They are not a fair standard to hold others to

In theory treating everyone the same is the way to go, but in reality diff demographics are at such disadvantageous starting point as a whole that it starts becoming necessary that in order to achieve that equality just mentioned, we need to focus more resources in certain areas. They are just too run down as is to expect people to have good opportunities come by their way. It's a cycle for a reason. Having a black president was nothing more than a moral victory, and I'm happy to have witnessed it, but that doesn't make it any less a moral victory

likemystylez
10-13-2017, 11:46 PM
It doesn't make sense for blacks to want to end affirmative action. With the odds against you so bad already, why wouldnt you want to use whatever advantage you have? I've never seen business owners fight against advantages and breaks given by the govt, why should they?

It's not an issue in the Jewish community because the Jewish community is one of the most informed, capable and on point communities in the history of mankind. They are a chosen people, after all. They are not a fair standard to hold others to

In theory treating everyone the same is the way to go, but in reality diff demographics are at such disadvantageous starting point as a whole that it starts becoming necessary that in order to achieve that equality just mentioned, we need to focus more resources in certain areas. They are just too run down as is to expect people to have good opportunities come by their way. It's a cycle for a reason. Having a black president was nothing more than a moral victory, and I'm happy to have witnessed it, but that doesn't make it any less a moral victory

what difference does it make how capable or how on point the community is if they have such a strong stigma against them from the past? (I honestly thought thats what you were arguing the whole time when I was talking about culture being the problem for blacks) I believe blacks are also capable of making smart choices and improving their culture moving forward through their decisions.

But the irish also went through slavery, and I dont think its impacting them too much. LOL- people dont even talk about the Irish slave trade like they talk about african americans being slaves int he past.

nastynice
10-14-2017, 02:33 PM
what difference does it make how capable or how on point the community is if they have such a strong stigma against them from the past? (I honestly thought thats what you were arguing the whole time when I was talking about culture being the problem for blacks) I believe blacks are also capable of making smart choices and improving their culture moving forward through their decisions.

But the irish also went through slavery, and I dont think its impacting them too much. LOL- people dont even talk about the Irish slave trade like they talk about african americans being slaves int he past.

It makes a difference because a community as aware and in tune as the Jewish community has an internal strength from which everything is rooted in. In today's black America, our slave trade has taken that away from them. The family structure was broken on a large scale, but never was there an attempt made to fix it, on a large scale.

You can look at a black man and instantaneously tell that he is black. The same doesn't apply to Irish. That is part of he problem. Being so easily identifiable, that's why all the extra noise becomes a burden on their shoulders

Of course they can make smart choices moving forward, same way if we raised our tax up to %400 and most of us were in poverty, well yea we can still make smart decisions moving forward but it's certainly going to be less than ideal and MUCH tougher compared to if the govt made things more manageable. So why not fight for the latter?

likemystylez
10-14-2017, 07:58 PM
It makes a difference because a community as aware and in tune as the Jewish community has an internal strength from which everything is rooted in. In today's black America, our slave trade has taken that away from them. The family structure was broken on a large scale, but never was there an attempt made to fix it, on a large scale.

You can look at a black man and instantaneously tell that he is black. The same doesn't apply to Irish. That is part of he problem. Being so easily identifiable, that's why all the extra noise becomes a burden on their shoulders

Of course they can make smart choices moving forward, same way if we raised our tax up to %400 and most of us were in poverty, well yea we can still make smart decisions moving forward but it's certainly going to be less than ideal and MUCH tougher compared to if the govt made things more manageable. So why not fight for the latter?

Thats fine if thats their choice- but then dont bash on people like me for questioning whether they sincerely want to be treated equally.

And dont say im racist cuz im sick of hearing about white privilege when the tangible systematic privilege is very clearly working directly against white people.

cmellofan15
10-14-2017, 08:30 PM
Hahahahahahahahaha is anyone gonna ban this dude spewing racism? I mean he is literally asserting his belief that some races are inherently better than others

mike_noodles
10-14-2017, 08:54 PM
/close thread

Saddletramp
10-15-2017, 05:03 AM
Damn it. I came back to this thread hours after I last saw it. Guess I don't need to share what I spent 10 minutes typing up.


Just another reason to hate this Nazi scumbag.

Chronz
10-15-2017, 10:45 PM
Damn it. I came back to this thread hours after I last saw it. Guess I don't need to share what I spent 10 minutes typing up.


Just another reason to hate this Nazi scumbag.
What he say?

Saddletramp
10-16-2017, 05:57 AM
What he say?

More racist ********. I saw it around 8, was going to respond, got sidetracked, came back around 4 and typed up some words. Apparently it had timed out or whatever because when I reloaded the page his last few posts were edited out by Rush.

IndyRealist
10-16-2017, 10:59 AM
So did anyone figure out who's dupe he was? Dude's gotta be on a watchlist.

HeartOfStarks
10-16-2017, 04:13 PM
So did anyone figure out who's dupe he was? Dude's gotta be on a watchlist.

It was Robert Durst spinning his manifesto from his prison cell lol

Seriously though that dude needs professional help. Like he might have some bodies in his basement that he jerks off to while sitting in his own feces. He's def on some Jame Gumb ****

Saddletramp
10-16-2017, 06:14 PM
This is what they do. Players kneel asking for equality and racist trash like this guy turn around the conversation and spew this nationalistic propaganda. He smothers you with xenophobia and hate until you just give up and ignore the conversation again like we always have.

likemystylez
10-16-2017, 10:30 PM
I consider myself moderate right, but albfree is very very clearly altright. People like that are the reason the left calls everyone who is right Nazis.

nastynice
10-17-2017, 04:53 AM
I consider myself moderate right, but albfree is very very clearly altright. People like that are the reason the left calls everyone who is right Nazis.

haha, its the fact that you know he another poster around here who prob has some alt right leaning views, but prob comes across all innocent and moderate in their arguments, but clearly been holding **** on his chest for a while. Wow was that some sort of explosion or what, lol, holy ****

I wish I coulda slayed that boy, cuz he ignorant as **** about the civilizations which have been in that area, but whatever. I could tell that was a convo I was best off not entering...

nastynice
10-17-2017, 04:57 AM
Thats fine if thats their choice- but then dont bash on people like me for questioning whether they sincerely want to be treated equally.

And dont say im racist cuz im sick of hearing about white privilege when the tangible systematic privilege is very clearly working directly against white people.

The system is white. It is a white system. Its not possible for the overall systematic privilege to be against whites. White privilege is inherent because the system is white.

White privilege is asking someone to show you which law specifically says to target blacks.

Maybe its effect on society is overblown, but the **** is definitely real. Its just a societal construct. On the other side of the world, it would be brown privilege

likemystylez
10-17-2017, 08:14 AM
The system is white. It is a white system. Its not possible for the overall systematic privilege to be against whites. White privilege is inherent because the system is white.

See... so saying stuff like this is a BS statement. I'm not saying its BS because its right or wrong. Its just so vague, yet so absolute. It honestly sounds like saying "It is what it is".... almost giving up. Sounds like just blaming whites for everything that could go wrong in their lives.......because the past and the system. Nothing to do with actual personal choices that are taking place every day.

I especially hate when groups protest and are saying crap like this. The point of protesting is to bring change but when the complaint is so vague- Im not sure what exact changes they want to see. without protesting exact things..... its just kinda pointless. I guess bringing recognition to life being unfair- LOL then blaming it all on white people.


White privilege is asking someone to show you which law specifically says to target blacks.

Another crap term, it assumes all white people are privileged over all black people. Assumes white people are set up for a better life (although statistically asians are doing a lot better than whites currently)

likemystylez
10-17-2017, 08:16 AM
haha, its the fact that you know he another poster around here who prob has some alt right leaning views, but prob comes across all innocent and moderate in their arguments, but clearly been holding **** on his chest for a while. Wow was that some sort of explosion or what, lol, holy ****

I wish I coulda slayed that boy, cuz he ignorant as **** about the civilizations which have been in that area, but whatever. I could tell that was a convo I was best off not entering...

I didnt really understand that, but im not alt right at all.

HeartOfStarks
10-17-2017, 01:59 PM
See... so saying stuff like this is a BS statement. I'm not saying its BS because its right or wrong. Its just so vague, yet so absolute. It honestly sounds like saying "It is what it is".... almost giving up. Sounds like just blaming whites for everything that could go wrong in their lives.......because the past and the system. Nothing to do with actual personal choices that are taking place every day.

I especially hate when groups protest and are saying crap like this. The point of protesting is to bring change but when the complaint is so vague- Im not sure what exact changes they want to see. without protesting exact things..... its just kinda pointless. I guess bringing recognition to life being unfair- LOL then blaming it all on white people.



Another crap term, it assumes all white people are privileged over all black people. Assumes white people are set up for a better life (although statistically asians are doing a lot better than whites currently)

It's not vague. It's simple. A numbers game, like anything else. There are way more white people in this country and it's been that way since Europeans took the country over from Native Americans.

When there's a huge majority of one type of person (white people) for centuries, the system is set up by them, maintained by them, etc etc. Does that clear up the confusion for you?

likemystylez
10-17-2017, 04:54 PM
It's not vague. It's simple. A numbers game, like anything else. There are way more white people in this country and it's been that way since Europeans took the country over from Native Americans.

When there's a huge majority of one type of person (white people) for centuries, the system is set up by them, maintained by them, etc etc. Does that clear up the confusion for you?



The laws are created in an attempt to be fair to everyone. The United States affords its citizens the most freedom of any society in the history of civilization.

So all this protest is simply because there are more whites than blacks in the country? Why aren't other groups complaining like this then? There are plenty of groups that have less population than blacks- is the law systematically oppressive to all of those groups?

And again- saying there are more whites isn't exactly evidence of the law being unfair to certain groups. There are more women than men on the planet, yet most people argue that men are given more freedom (particularly in the middle east)

HeartOfStarks
10-17-2017, 05:11 PM
The laws are created in an attempt to be fair to everyone. The United States affords its citizens the most freedom of any society in the history of civilization.

So all this protest is simply because there are more whites than blacks in the country? Why aren't other groups complaining like this then? There are plenty of groups that have less population than blacks- is the law systematically oppressive to all of those groups?

And again- saying there are more whites isn't exactly evidence of the law being unfair to certain groups. There are more women than men on the planet, yet most people argue that men are given more freedom (particularly in the middle east)

You genuinely seem to lack an understanding of American history. One group of people made up the vast majority of chattel slavery. That would be black people.

Post slavery, you have debt peonage and Jim Crow, leading all the way up to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I'm not going to waste time explaining this to you in detail, but if you're genuinely curious you should check out the books River Of Dark Dreams by Walter Johnson and American Nations by Colin Woodward. You can also watch James Baldwin in his debate with William F. Buckley circa 1965.

Or you could speak with some black people to learn about their experience in this country. Specifically some older black people may be able to help shed some light for you. I understand it can be difficult to put yourself in other people's shoes. But it's enriching and enlightening to do so and will make you a more well rounded person.

HeartOfStarks
10-17-2017, 05:16 PM
Btw saying we're afforded "the most freedom of any society in the history of civilization" is likely a partially informed statement. Like seriously how much time have you spent or lived in other countries? This is ethnocentrism at its finest.

That's not to say we aren't afforded great freedom, especially compared to many other nations. But statements like that are similar to saying "he's the worst/best President in history" etc etc when none of us actually lived through the vast majority of presidencies and likely know quite little about most presidents. It's okay to not know everything. Doesn't mean you have to make wild claims and outlandish comparisons based on close to nothing.

HeartOfStarks
10-17-2017, 05:28 PM
And just to take this back to the original focus of this thread, unless I'm wrong I thought Kaepernick's original protest was about police violence/killings of blacks where the officer then basically gets acquitted. And the seeming systemic way this happens repeatedly, and how these people don't get much of a voice (vs. pro athletes for example).

Eric Garner was choked out while he said he couldn't breathe 12 times, then he died. You have the Trayvon Martin killing (which I realize Zimmerman is not a cop, but Neighborhood Watch) - he goes free; now everyone realizes he's a scumbag of course.

It's about holding authority figures and systems of authority accountable for reckless violence that seems to happen largely to one race of people, where the situations may be able to be handled in a way where the person doesn't end up dead. Other countries don't seem to have this issue on the scale we do here. I have cop friends and I realize most cops aren't out there killing people but the profession itself does seem to attract some people who are likely loose cannons, have Napolean/Power trip issues, and some who are just downright criminal minded.

Again I'm speaking of a (hopefully) small percentage of cops. But they're the ones walking around with badges and guns so you have to keep an eye on that **** and make sure they aren't abusing their power. That's the issue.

HeartOfStarks
10-17-2017, 05:34 PM
One seemingly simple fix when there is a police killing is bringing in a special prosecutor for the Grand Jury. Don't have a guy come in there who works every day with that same police department. Clear conflict of interest there - just shouldn't happen. This is one example of a SYSTEMIC problem.

Prison for profit - SYSTEMIC problem. 100 to 1 Crack/Cocaine law - SYSTEMIC (just recently overturned during last Presidency).

This stuff isn't a mystery. The issues are clear if you pay attention.

nastynice
10-17-2017, 08:38 PM
See... so saying stuff like this is a BS statement. I'm not saying its BS because its right or wrong. Its just so vague, yet so absolute. It honestly sounds like saying "It is what it is".... almost giving up. Sounds like just blaming whites for everything that could go wrong in their lives.......because the past and the system. Nothing to do with actual personal choices that are taking place every day.

I especially hate when groups protest and are saying crap like this. The point of protesting is to bring change but when the complaint is so vague- Im not sure what exact changes they want to see. without protesting exact things..... its just kinda pointless. I guess bringing recognition to life being unfair- LOL then blaming it all on white people.



Another crap term, it assumes all white people are privileged over all black people. Assumes white people are set up for a better life (although statistically asians are doing a lot better than whites currently)

Of course it's absolute (well not really, at some point our collectively mixed race of brown people will overtake white as the dominant species), because that's just what the system is. It truly IS what it is.

As far as blaming whites and feeling this implies every white is at an overall advantage than every non white, it's too bad you and many others feel that because it unfortunately means that a legitimate gripe is going unheard. But understand that that is your assumption of your own accord. Friend if you are complaining about being white in America then just IMAGINE how much you would complain if you were black in America.

White privileged is not a crap term, it's a term which describes your exact mentality. It is rooted in the fact that the US system represents the people, and the majority of people are white. So your relation with your govt will always be diff than mine, or any other non white, in the sense that you will never be marginalized as a whole. Your voice will always be heard as a whole. That in of itself is simply a fact. Me connecting the term white privilege to it is me making a comment on how dissociated you (and others) are with the reality of race relations in this country. You are SO privileged, that you actually think the system is not clearly slanted against blacks.

I'm not white, I don't understand the sting of the term white privilege. I'm not black, I don't understand the black struggle. But my eyes are open, I see ****, seems pretty obvious...

likemystylez
10-17-2017, 09:05 PM
Of course it's absolute (well not really, at some point our collectively mixed race of brown people will overtake white as the dominant species), because that's just what the system is. It truly IS what it is.

As far as blaming whites and feeling this implies every white is at an overall advantage than every non white, it's too bad you and many others feel that because it unfortunately means that a legitimate gripe is going unheard. But understand that that is your assumption of your own accord. Friend if you are complaining about being white in America then just IMAGINE how much you would complain if you were black in America.

White privileged is not a crap term, it's a term which describes your exact mentality. It is rooted in the fact that the US system represents the people, and the majority of people are white. So your relation with your govt will always be diff than mine, or any other non white, in the sense that you will never be marginalized as a whole. Your voice will always be heard as a whole. That in of itself is simply a fact. Me connecting the term white privilege to it is me making a comment on how dissociated you (and others) are with the reality of race relations in this country. You are SO privileged, that you actually think the system is not clearly slanted against blacks.

I'm not white, I don't understand the sting of the term white privilege. I'm not black, I don't understand the black struggle. But my eyes are open, I see ****, seems pretty obvious...

ummm are you living in 2017? We just had a black president go for back to back terms

likemystylez
10-17-2017, 09:06 PM
One seemingly simple fix when there is a police killing is bringing in a special prosecutor for the Grand Jury. Don't have a guy come in there who works every day with that same police department. Clear conflict of interest there - just shouldn't happen. This is one example of a SYSTEMIC problem.

Prison for profit - SYSTEMIC problem. 100 to 1 Crack/Cocaine law - SYSTEMIC (just recently overturned during last Presidency).

This stuff isn't a mystery. The issues are clear if you pay attention.

Yet OJ simpson walked??

HeartOfStarks
10-17-2017, 09:16 PM
Yet OJ simpson walked??

Yes OJ is one case (and not a grand jury case of a police killing with special prosecutor - so not sure what the relevance is?).

12% of the country is black. 37% of the prison population is black. When you start looking at non-violent offender demographics and correlating sentences it's not good. Our prison system is a for profit, private system. At some point as a country we will need to address this.

Again though, we can just agree to disagree. You have your opinion and perception and that's fine - I learned a long time ago I'm not changing anyone's mind.

HeartOfStarks
10-17-2017, 09:28 PM
One last thing, since you brought up OJ... that case literally had Mark Fuhrman working it, who was ON TAPE saying crazy racist ****. Which just supports the entire point of this protest in the first place, which is you have a bunch of biased, racist authority figures with badges and guns and the CJ System behind them (decade after decade) - people feel the weight of that **** man. It's not some fantasy, it's very real for a lot of people, many of whom have no public voice. And that's why you have this protest.

likemystylez
10-17-2017, 09:30 PM
One last thing, since you brought up OJ... that case literally had Mark Fuhrman working it, who was ON TAPE saying crazy racist ****. Which just supports the entire point of this protest in the first place, which is you have a bunch of biased, racist authority figures with badges and guns and the CJ System behind them (decade after decade) - people feel the weight of that **** man. It's not some fantasy, it's very real for a lot of people, many of whom have no public voice. And that's why you have this protest.

I think you would benefit a lot going to a Ben Shapiro event, I watched him in Berkeley a few weeks ago. The guy would open a lot of eyes if they were willing to listen to him.

nastynice
10-17-2017, 10:18 PM
ummm are you living in 2017? We just had a black president go for back to back terms

This is a perfect example of white privilege. For someone to say a statement like this, you have to be SO FAR disconnected from the reality of life, the reality of what is happening on the streets, the reality of how this entire socioeconomic system is set up and what that means for each of us in our daily lives. You got this ignorance is bliss type of thing going on, which is ok, we're all ignorant about something or another.

You should first understand what a capitalist society is, and how exactly that translate into real life and what that means for each of the different wealth classes in this country. The inherent advantage is afforded to those who start off in a favorable situation, and so in our country blacks have ALWAYS started off in unfavorable situations, and so the nature of economics dictated by our economic system is going to naturally be slanted against blacks. This is very basic and fundamental knowledge, people with even very limited knowledge on this topic should understand this, and that is why we as a society DO have affirmative action in place. To think affirmative action puts whites at an overall disadvantage shows an extreme ignorance.

This is nothing to feel guilty about, nor should anyone take that as meaning every single white has an overall advantage over every single black. It is however the reality of life, denying this means you live in a fantasy.

Understanding this and attempting to change this will have a positive impact overall on ALL of america. The better we are at holding ourselves and our local communities up, the further up we will collectively hold this country up. It is in the best interest of every American to understand this reality and support legislation which can help bring change and fix this problem.

likemystylez
10-17-2017, 10:39 PM
This is a perfect example of white privilege. For someone to say a statement like this, you have to be SO FAR disconnected from the reality of life, the reality of what is happening on the streets, the reality of how this entire socioeconomic system is set up and what that means for each of us in our daily lives. You got this ignorance is bliss type of thing going on, which is ok, we're all ignorant about something or another.

You should first understand what a capitalist society is, and how exactly that translate into real life and what that means for each of the different wealth classes in this country. The inherent advantage is afforded to those who start off in a favorable situation, and so in our country blacks have ALWAYS started off in unfavorable situations, and so the nature of economics dictated by our economic system is going to naturally be slanted against blacks. This is very basic and fundamental knowledge, people with even very limited knowledge on this topic should understand this, and that is why we as a society DO have affirmative action in place. To think affirmative action puts whites at an overall disadvantage shows an extreme ignorance.

This is nothing to feel guilty about, nor should anyone take that as meaning every single white has an overall advantage over every single black. It is however the reality of life, denying this means you live in a fantasy.

Understanding this and attempting to change this will have a positive impact overall on ALL of america. The better we are at holding ourselves and our local communities up, the further up we will collectively hold this country up. It is in the best interest of every American to understand this reality and support legislation which can help bring change and fix this problem.

As long as these changes in legislation dont put whites or any other race at a disadvantage- Im all for that. Crap like the sats being rigged against whites and asians is clear racism that there is no way a white person can escape. (with the exception of giving up on graduating highschool and advancing in life)

D-Leethal
10-17-2017, 11:22 PM
Yes OJ is one case (and not a grand jury case of a police killing with special prosecutor - so not sure what the relevance is?).

12% of the country is black. 37% of the prison population is black. When you start looking at non-violent offender demographics and correlating sentences it's not good. Our prison system is a for profit, private system. At some point as a country we will need to address this.

Again though, we can just agree to disagree. You have your opinion and perception and that's fine - I learned a long time ago I'm not changing anyone's mind.

To be fair, the percentage of inmates held in private prisons are extremely low. The "private prison" phenomenon is completely overblown.

This WaPo article gives some numbers:


The idea that private prisons are central to mass incarceration may appeal politically to people who are generally skeptical of corporations. But the reality is that more than 90 percent of U.S. prisoners are directly watched over by the government and 100 percent are serving sentences that were established by the government.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/23/private-prisons-arent-that-big-a-deal/?utm_term=.dbb0fdbbfa4b

The system most definitely favors those with cash though, there is no doubt about that, and I think that explains your non-violent offender demographics point more than anything, as low income minorities typically don't hire competent attorneys and post 5+ figure bail.

At the end of the day though, the African American community needs to be willing to confront the breakdown in the family unit in their community and the DIRECT correlation that has to violent crime and incarceration. If you want to talk numbers, those are the most staggering you will find.

D-Leethal
10-17-2017, 11:26 PM
As long as these changes in legislation dont put whites or any other race at a disadvantage- Im all for that. Crap like the sats being rigged against whites and asians is clear racism that there is no way a white person can escape. (with the exception of giving up on graduating highschool and advancing in life)

Rigging results will do nothing to fix the problem. That's a bandaid fix, not a wholesome one. I am for over-compensating investments in broken communities to level the opportunity playing field but not for fixing results to give the appearance of equality.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 12:09 AM
To be fair, the percentage of inmates held in private prisons are extremely low. The "private prison" phenomenon is completely overblown.

This WaPo article gives some numbers:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/23/private-prisons-arent-that-big-a-deal/?utm_term=.dbb0fdbbfa4b

The system most definitely favors those with cash though, there is no doubt about that, and I think that explains your non-violent offender demographics point more than anything, as low income minorities typically don't hire competent attorneys and post 5+ figure bail.

At the end of the day though, the African American community needs to be willing to confront the breakdown in the family unit in their community and the DIRECT correlation that has to violent crime and incarceration. If you want to talk numbers, those are the most staggering you will find.

They're a significant political lobby pulling in over $3 billion a year in revenue. There's more than 100 of them in the U.S., their population more than doubled between 2000 & 2010, & half of our immigrant detainees are housed by them.

Don't sleep, they're not some small operation. They have politicians in their pockets and their influence, inmate population & reach is only expanding.

Btw by breakdowns in family units, I'm assuming you mean children raised without fathers, who, wait for it... are targeted and incarcerated at way higher levels for much longer sentences than whites. So yeah... if you want to talk DIRECT correlations.

nastynice
10-18-2017, 12:19 AM
As long as these changes in legislation dont put whites or any other race at a disadvantage- Im all for that. Crap like the sats being rigged against whites and asians is clear racism that there is no way a white person can escape. (with the exception of giving up on graduating highschool and advancing in life)

Sure, ideally we're trying to give generally decent opportunities to everyone. We have done a great job of that as a country, however we still do have certain areas that we just need to clean up because they are just stuck in a mess.

There's nothing to take offense to regarding the sats. The sats being rigged probably has some weight behind it. It's prob about language, and the reality that some people speak ebonics, and this gonna put you at a disadvantage probably, in the english section (I've never really heard of this, I'm assuming this is what the argument is centered around..?). I'm in your group, I speak proper english as taught in majority of the US. Me recognizing this inherit advantage of mine over certain other people, I don't know, I just don't see why I should or need to feel guilty about it. Its just reality, its just what it is.

ain't nothing to take personal

nastynice
10-18-2017, 12:22 AM
Rigging results will do nothing to fix the problem. That's a bandaid fix, not a wholesome one. I am for over-compensating investments in broken communities to level the opportunity playing field but not for fixing results to give the appearance of equality.

agreed. Fixing the problem from the inside out today will lead to, I believe, having minimal to no problem down the line.

But half the people in a position to make change got some kinda ****in political catch line to fulfill, and so on go the merry go round..

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 03:35 AM
Sure, ideally we're trying to give generally decent opportunities to everyone. We have done a great job of that as a country, however we still do have certain areas that we just need to clean up because they are just stuck in a mess.

There's nothing to take offense to regarding the sats. The sats being rigged probably has some weight behind it. It's prob about language, and the reality that some people speak ebonics, and this gonna put you at a disadvantage probably, in the english section (I've never really heard of this, I'm assuming this is what the argument is centered around..?). I'm in your group, I speak proper english as taught in majority of the US. Me recognizing this inherit advantage of mine over certain other people, I don't know, I just don't see why I should or need to feel guilty about it. Its just reality, its just what it is.

ain't nothing to take personal

Yeah so even if that held some weight (it doesnt really- sat is to get into college, you arent going to succeed in college speaking ebonics so......)

But for a second I will say I buy that argument. Even then, it is unfair to give the advantage to literally every single black kid taking the test and give the disadvantage to every single white kid. Some black kids went to good schools around the country and there are plenty of white kids that went to bad schools around the country. Even if you wanted to rig the sat for that reason- wouldnt it make more sense to pick all the kids (regardless of race from the bottom school districts?)- or do you think those white kids deserve to get ****ed over because of how stuff was 160 yrs ago?

Saddletramp
10-18-2017, 03:59 AM
Ben Shapiro? Lol.

Vinylman
10-18-2017, 08:30 AM
One last thing, since you brought up OJ... that case literally had Mark Fuhrman working it, who was ON TAPE saying crazy racist ****. Which just supports the entire point of this protest in the first place, which is you have a bunch of biased, racist authority figures with badges and guns and the CJ System behind them (decade after decade) - people feel the weight of that **** man. It's not some fantasy, it's very real for a lot of people, many of whom have no public voice. And that's why you have this protest.

yet that had no bearing on his innocence or guilt... just used as an excuse to acquit...

It is using examples like this that hardens the two camps positions...

the key learning from the OJ case is that privilege (ie wealth) no matter your race, gender, or religion... always results in better outcomes when dealing with the CJ system...

Vinylman
10-18-2017, 08:35 AM
One seemingly simple fix when there is a police killing is bringing in a special prosecutor for the Grand Jury. Don't have a guy come in there who works every day with that same police department. Clear conflict of interest there - just shouldn't happen. This is one example of a SYSTEMIC problem.

Prison for profit - SYSTEMIC problem. 100 to 1 Crack/Cocaine law - SYSTEMIC (just recently overturned during last Presidency).

This stuff isn't a mystery. The issues are clear if you pay attention.

I agree that there are systemic problems with the CJ system in terms of equities but as usual the case you are making will fall on deaf ears because the underlying issue is criminality...

nothing in your statement describes a situation where an innocent person was put in jail... additionally, bringing in a SP will not generally see different results (see your own referenced case of Zimmerman).

I am all for reform but for a different reason than you... I don't see it changing outcomes... just eliminating the excuse making

Vinylman
10-18-2017, 08:39 AM
To be fair, the percentage of inmates held in private prisons are extremely low. The "private prison" phenomenon is completely overblown.

This WaPo article gives some numbers:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/23/private-prisons-arent-that-big-a-deal/?utm_term=.dbb0fdbbfa4b

The system most definitely favors those with cash though, there is no doubt about that, and I think that explains your non-violent offender demographics point more than anything, as low income minorities typically don't hire competent attorneys and post 5+ figure bail.

At the end of the day though, the African American community needs to be willing to confront the breakdown in the family unit in their community and the DIRECT correlation that has to violent crime and incarceration. If you want to talk numbers, those are the most staggering you will find.

someone who gets it... great post

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 09:37 AM
They're a significant political lobby pulling in over $3 billion a year in revenue. There's more than 100 of them in the U.S., their population more than doubled between 2000 & 2010, & half of our immigrant detainees are housed by them.

Don't sleep, they're not some small operation. They have politicians in their pockets and their influence, inmate population & reach is only expanding.

Btw by breakdowns in family units, I'm assuming you mean children raised without fathers, who, wait for it... are targeted and incarcerated at way higher levels for much longer sentences than whites. So yeah... if you want to talk DIRECT correlations.

Oh I am with you that the lobby's are the root cause of pretty much everything wrong with our "system" today. That and the two-party political system in general, which is necessary for fundraising purposes, which goes right back to the lobby issue. The second money enters politics it stops being about the people and becomes about the donors. Prison lobby is the perfect example. I was just saying the actual use of private prisons is a very small piece of the pie vs Govt run prisons. I posted here when everyone was jumping for joy that when Obama's DOJ discontinued the use of private prisons that nothing was going to change until the prison lobby was eliminated. They will morph and evolve and already have - backing new ankle bracelet technologies and lobbying the **** out of DHS to become the ICE factory.

By breakdown in family units I meant children without fathers are much more likely to grow up in poverty, commit violent crime, and end up in prison. Are you suggesting they are "targeted" in any other way than being arrested for a crime they committed? I do agree that once they are arrested - the cards are stacked against them because the system favors those with money, but their lackthereof (living in poverty) can also be traced back in large part to growing up in a single parent household.

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 09:43 AM
To be fair, the percentage of inmates held in private prisons are extremely low. The "private prison" phenomenon is completely overblown.

This WaPo article gives some numbers:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/23/private-prisons-arent-that-big-a-deal/?utm_term=.dbb0fdbbfa4b

The system most definitely favors those with cash though, there is no doubt about that, and I think that explains your non-violent offender demographics point more than anything, as low income minorities typically don't hire competent attorneys and post 5+ figure bail.

At the end of the day though, the African American community needs to be willing to confront the breakdown in the family unit in their community and the DIRECT correlation that has to violent crime and incarceration. If you want to talk numbers, those are the most staggering you will find.

correct. I believe that is the single biggest issue facing the African American community in this country. More so than systematic racism even. It all starts at home..

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 09:51 AM
One last thing, since you brought up OJ... that case literally had Mark Fuhrman working it, who was ON TAPE saying crazy racist ****. Which just supports the entire point of this protest in the first place, which is you have a bunch of biased, racist authority figures with badges and guns and the CJ System behind them (decade after decade) - people feel the weight of that **** man. It's not some fantasy, it's very real for a lot of people, many of whom have no public voice. And that's why you have this protest.

I don't think anyone can dispute there are bad apples in law enforcement. But this anti-cop movement calls out racist even when it's a black officer. I think the itchy trigger fingers and tougher proactive policing in certain neighborhoods has a lot to do with the types of crimes being committed in the those neighborhoods, the types of gangs controlling those neighborhoods, than simply the cops wanting to kill black guys. Again, the movement tries to deflect ALL responsibility on this issue and make it solely about race. If you were responding to a call or patrolling inner city Chicago or wouldn't you have your eyes wide open and your hand by your waist ready to shoot? Hard for anyone to say they wouldn't.

When you're patrolling a neighborhood like that - and day to day what you're seeing is crime after crime, shooting after shooting, gang murder after gang murder, mostly all committed by one race (in the Chicago example), even the most non-racist person in the world is going to look at that one race a little differently at the very least as a defense mechanism to keep himself safe patrolling a warzone.

Does that blend itself into racism? Yes, it does, and I'm sure you can find many police officers who didn't have a racist bone in their body but developed them after embedding themselves into that environment day after day, year after year. And I think the blame for that is shared because what they are seeing out there and responding to everyday isn't made up stuff.

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 10:25 AM
Ben Shapiro? Lol.

Let me guess, you think he is a Nazi or a white supremacist?

Mikeleafs
10-18-2017, 10:43 AM
Stand for the anthem you spoiled brats and do your job!

Plus, you may hurt your knees on kneeling on the hard court.

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 11:25 AM
I don't think anyone can dispute there are bad apples in law enforcement. But this anti-cop movement calls out racist even when it's a black officer. I think the itchy trigger fingers and tougher proactive policing in certain neighborhoods has a lot to do with the types of crimes being committed in the those neighborhoods, the types of gangs controlling those neighborhoods, than simply the cops wanting to kill black guys. Again, the movement tries to deflect ALL responsibility on this issue and make it solely about race. If you were responding to a call or patrolling inner city Chicago or wouldn't you have your eyes wide open and your hand by your waist ready to shoot? Hard for anyone to say they wouldn't.

When you're patrolling a neighborhood like that - and day to day what you're seeing is crime after crime, shooting after shooting, gang murder after gang murder, mostly all committed by one race (in the Chicago example), even the most non-racist person in the world is going to look at that one race a little differently at the very least as a defense mechanism to keep himself safe patrolling a warzone.

Does that blend itself into racism? Yes, it does, and I'm sure you can find many police officers who didn't have a racist bone in their body but developed them after embedding themselves into that environment day after day, year after year. And I think the blame for that is shared because what they are seeing out there and responding to everyday isn't made up stuff.

Not sure if they do this or not, but I have mentioned this before. Cops should be cycled in and out of areas every few months to avoid just this. Because yes, if all I saw was black on black violent crime every day of my worklife, damn right I get an itchy trigger finger in that area, especially when a black person is being anything but cooperative. But cycling them in and out and putting them behind a desk, or in suburbia where speeding is the worst thing that happens, is a better way to not allow a cop to get scorned, or in the habit of seeing only the bad.

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 12:10 PM
Not sure if they do this or not, but I have mentioned this before. Cops should be cycled in and out of areas every few months to avoid just this. Because yes, if all I saw was black on black violent crime every day of my worklife, damn right I get an itchy trigger finger in that area, especially when a black person is being anything but cooperative. But cycling them in and out and putting them behind a desk, or in suburbia where speeding is the worst thing that happens, is a better way to not allow a cop to get scorned, or in the habit of seeing only the bad.

Chicago is on pace for damn near 100 shootings a day. I mean, these cops are human too. How could you expect those guys to patrol a place like that with kid gloves? They are expecting to run into gang members with guns and get into shootouts. I understand these issues pop up everywhere and not everyplace is quite like Chicago, but I think the idea holds true even as you lower the scale from the Chicago extreme.

Your idea is interesting, I just wonder if the argument against it would be that they NEED those cops to be on their toes and not come off desk duty right into the most dangerous patrol zone in the US. You also don't want a guy like Pryzbylewski from The Wire to be out in those streets.

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 12:18 PM
I also think the systemic issues have more to do with class than race. There are plenty of poor whiteys all over this country that suffer from the same things the blacks and minorities are fighting against and suffering from.

The system likes to lock people up, keep them locked up and favors those with money. Children that come from broken homes are more likely to grow up poor, commit crimes, and go to prison. None of this has anything to do with race inherently although it does effect different races disproportionately because the root cause (growing up in a broken family) is not equal across all races.

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 12:28 PM
I also think the systemic issues have more to do with class than race. There are plenty of poor whiteys all over this country that suffer from the same things the blacks and minorities are fighting against and suffering from.

The system likes to lock people up, keep them locked up and favors those with money. Children that come from broken homes are more likely to grow up poor, commit crimes, and go to prison. None of this has anything to do with race inherently although it does effect different races disproportionately because the root cause (growing up in a broken family) is not equal across all races.

eh, this country has gone out of it's way to oppress blacks. This is one of the posts of yours I actually don't agree with. There have even been finance/home laws set up that did nothing but break up black families for periods of time. The war on drugs was targeted straight at blacks (and hippees). Hard to be a good father when you are locked up..

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 12:30 PM
Chicago is on pace for damn near 100 shootings a day. I mean, these cops are human too. How could you expect those guys to patrol a place like that with kid gloves? They are expecting to run into gang members with guns and get into shootouts. I understand these issues pop up everywhere and not everyplace is quite like Chicago, but I think the idea holds true even as you lower the scale from the Chicago extreme.

Your idea is interesting, I just wonder if the argument against it would be that they NEED those cops to be on their toes and not come off desk duty right into the most dangerous patrol zone in the US. You also don't want a guy like Pryzbylewski from The Wire to be out in those streets.

every cop should be on their toes.

The one argument against my theory that makes sense, is that cops tend to learn the neighborhoods, the people, and know when things are a non-issue, or when things might be an issue, both scenarios might look totally different to newer to the area cops.

I just think seeing the same **** every day would get you cynical. That isn't a good thing.

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 01:41 PM
eh, this country has gone out of it's way to oppress blacks. This is one of the posts of yours I actually don't agree with. There have even been finance/home laws set up that did nothing but break up black families for periods of time. The war on drugs was targeted straight at blacks (and hippees). Hard to be a good father when you are locked up..

I'm not arguing the disgusting track record this country has with black oppression. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think poor whites from broken homes are benefiting from any white privilege. I think people with money in general are benefitting from these privileges we are attributing solely to race. That's not to say racism doesn't exist, or people aren't slighted on a daily basis because of the color of their skin, but as far as this talk of systemic oppression goes and stacking the deck against a particular people, I think it's more about class than race.

I don't have numbers, but I'm sure across Meth country the prison population is loaded up with white drug addicts suffering from the same ****** drug laws the blacks are. The trailer park whites in rural areas are suffering against the same monetary-based justice system that ghetto blacks are in urban areas.

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 01:45 PM
I'm not arguing the disgusting track record this country has with black oppression. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think poor whites from broken homes are benefiting from any white privilege. I think people with money in general are benefitting from these privileges we are attributing solely to race. That's not to say racism doesn't exist, or people aren't slighted on a daily basis because of the color of their skin, but as far as this talk of systemic oppression goes and stacking the deck against a particular people, I think it's more about class than race.

I don't have numbers, but I'm sure across Meth country the prison population is loaded up with white drug addicts suffering from the same ****** drug laws the blacks are. The trailer park whites in rural areas are suffering against the same monetary-based justice system that ghetto blacks are in urban areas.

oh sure, it's not all race. The war on drugs targeted drugs that anti-war, and blacks were using AT THE TIME. drug use has developed in many fashions, and expanded from the crack-cocaine into more modern day drugs that many whites use too.

I only mean, we can't ignore that being born black in this country, immediately puts you behind the 8 ball as far as life goes. It doesn't mean you can't prosper, only that you have been given the short end of the stick to start life. It makes it harder, ya know?

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 01:49 PM
oh sure, it's not all race. The war on drugs targeted drugs that anti-war, and blacks were using AT THE TIME. drug use has developed in many fashions, and expanded from the crack-cocaine into more modern day drugs that many whites use too.

I only mean, we can't ignore that being born black in this country, immediately puts you behind the 8 ball as far as life goes. It doesn't mean you can't prosper, only that you have been given the short end of the stick to start life. It makes it harder, ya know?

Being born into a certain class or being born around people with a certain culture is a bigger indicator of "immediately puts you behind the 8 ball as far as life goes"

While it's true there might be a higher percentage of blacks in that class, and who dont make certain things a priority growing up (IE. having a father part of the kids upbringing, graduating high school, not having kids before you get married etc.).... That still doesnt mean it is happening because they are black.

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 01:50 PM
I think the dots are directly connected between systemic oppression and lower class citizens. I think overtime there has been a concerted effort to push blacks into that lower class bucket. There have been other minority groups pushed into the bucket throughout our history, and poor whites are also thrown in there. But in our modern era, I'm not sure they are "forced" into that bucket as much as they are kind of their own worst enemy in staying there and not being caddied out with Gov't help the way they feel they should be.

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 01:52 PM
Being born into a certain class or being born around people with a certain culture is a bigger indicator of "immediately puts you behind the 8 ball as far as life goes"

While it's true there might be a higher percentage of blacks in that class, and who dont make certain things a priority growing up (IE. having a father part of the kids upbringing, graduating high school, not having kids before you get married etc.).... That still doesnt mean it is happening because they are black.

the whole thing is, the oppression efforts of the white man in America put the black man in that hole. We can't expect them to climb out without giving them a hand entirely. Nor should we.

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 01:53 PM
i think the dots are directly connected between systemic oppression and lower class citizens. I think overtime there has been a concerted effort to push blacks into that lower class bucket. There have been other minority groups pushed into the bucket throughout our history, and poor whites are also thrown in there. But in our modern era, i'm not sure they are "forced" into that bucket as much as they are kind of their own worst enemy in staying there and not being caddied out with gov't help the way they feel they should be.

yes!!!!!

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 01:55 PM
oh sure, it's not all race. The war on drugs targeted drugs that anti-war, and blacks were using AT THE TIME. drug use has developed in many fashions, and expanded from the crack-cocaine into more modern day drugs that many whites use too.

I only mean, we can't ignore that being born black in this country, immediately puts you behind the 8 ball as far as life goes. It doesn't mean you can't prosper, only that you have been given the short end of the stick to start life. It makes it harder, ya know?

Rich white guy vs rich black guy coming from stable families and poor trailer park boy vs poor black guy coming from broken families I'm not sure the deck is stacked in either direction from a class or opportunity perspective. From a treatment of your peers, getting the door held open for you and having someone walk across the street when you're walking with your hoody up perspective the racism still rears its head but from a "world at your fingertips" perspective IDK if I'm buying that in 2017.

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 02:00 PM
That said, if you want to argue more blacks are born into poverty and winning the sperm lottery is much harder as an African American, therefore the cards are stacked against them, I agree with you there. But if we're holding everything else as constant between a white guy and black guy (family structure, income etc..) I don't think the cards are stacked against you if you're black as much as they are stacked against you if you're poor.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 02:06 PM
In Germany there are Holocaust reparations for Jews. Here blacks were promised 40 acres and a mule and got debt peonage and Jim Crow.

It's never been a level playing field.

Some of your guys' points are valid and others are the epitome of a privileged perspective. At least we're having the conversation in a civilized manner but again going back to the protests, another angle is these dudes probably feel some sense that they're making millions of dollars and being revered while other people of the same race are being shot in the back while running away from a cop, and then many of these cops get off. Eric Garner was selling loosies - sure he resisted but the dude was choked out while begging for air before dying on the street. And the cop goes free.

And please stop saying "black community" like there's ONE cohesive black community lol. It's ridiculous. How is the "white community" doing? Black people are just like anyone else in that there's all kinds of different subsets, people living in different areas urban/suburban/rural... Middle class, poor... and the ****** thing that points back to the original focus of this thread is EVEN rich black people get pulled over at weirdly crazy rates - Wendell Pierce and others have spoken on this. There was a decades long propaganda effort (centuries really) to paint black males as criminals, thugs, brutes, rapists... etc. etc. Don't think our culture hasn't been affected by that, cause it absolutely has.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 02:07 PM
That said, if you want to argue more blacks are born into poverty and winning the sperm lottery is much harder as an African American, therefore the cards are stacked against them, I agree with you there. But if we're holding everything else as constant between a white guy and black guy (family structure, income etc..) I don't think the cards are stacked against you if you're black as much as they are stacked against you if you're poor.

Sure except white people got a 300 year head start on wealth building.

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 02:27 PM
Sure except white people got a 300 year head start on wealth building.

and do you think blacks dropping out of highschool at such a huge rate today is going to help widen the gap or bring them closer? Thats a choice made today thats impacting class for future generations..... but why worry about decisions today, when we can complain about things in history that we cant change.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 02:35 PM
and do you think blacks dropping out of highschool at such a huge rate today is going to help widen the gap or bring them closer? Thats a choice made today thats impacting class for future generations..... but why worry about decisions today, when we can complain about things in history that we cant change.

It's not about complaining it's about recognizing things don't exist in a vacuum, something you seem to have difficulty with.

How do you suggest we as a country help young black males succeed more in school? Invest more in urban schools? Get rid of drug laws that imprison black fathers for decades where Wall Street cokeheads never go to prison at all? Does that help keep families together? How do you solve poverty in inner cities where people... wait for it... have only had several decades vs. 100 or 200 years to attempt to build wealth?

Because poor grades and graduation rates etc. are surely tied to poverty. So what is the solution? Serious question what do you suggest?

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 02:48 PM
That said, if you want to argue more blacks are born into poverty and winning the sperm lottery is much harder as an African American, therefore the cards are stacked against them, I agree with you there. But if we're holding everything else as constant between a white guy and black guy (family structure, income etc..) I don't think the cards are stacked against you if you're black as much as they are stacked against you if you're poor.

yeah but we are not even a generation removed from the drug war. Whites never endured slavery, Jim Crowe laws, financial institutions breaking up families over home loans, social security excluding their main job skills, the war on drugs, etc.

Dude, blacks have systematically been put in a hole. Do they need to face the mirror and fix their number of fatherless families? Oh yeah, for sure they do. But it's a fact that being born black is going to give you the opposite of a head start in the US. I get you are trying to lump in poor whites, but they aren't in the same boat. At all. Whites have had the advantage for 200+ years and counting.

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 02:50 PM
It's not about complaining it's about recognizing things don't exist in a vacuum, something you seem to have difficulty with.

How do you suggest we as a country help young black males succeed more in school? Invest more in urban schools? Get rid of drug laws that imprison black fathers for decades where Wall Street cokeheads never go to prison at all? Does that help keep families together? How do you solve poverty in inner cities where people... wait for it... have only had several decades vs. 100 or 200 years to attempt to build wealth?

Because poor grades and graduation rates etc. are surely tied to poverty. So what is the solution? Serious question what do you suggest?

yes, exactly. Great post.

Nobody is saying the black community doesn't need to look at themselves, and especially the men of their society when it comes to sticking around when they have kids. But my god, to act like blacks haven't been steered into the direction they landed, and over time even had laws created to stick them in jail, and break up their families, is pure denial.

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 03:03 PM
It's not about complaining it's about recognizing things don't exist in a vacuum, something you seem to have difficulty with.

How do you suggest we as a country help young black males succeed more in school? Invest more in urban schools? Get rid of drug laws that imprison black fathers for decades where Wall Street cokeheads never go to prison at all? Does that help keep families together? How do you solve poverty in inner cities where people... wait for it... have only had several decades vs. 100 or 200 years to attempt to build wealth?

Because poor grades and graduation rates etc. are surely tied to poverty. So what is the solution? Serious question what do you suggest?

1) I think organizations like black lives matter could do a lot of good for black people who have their whole future ahead of them. They could be setting up scholarships, programs to educationally prepare blacks for higher education. (I think a lot of people in general dont finish highschool because they dont feel it makes a difference if college isnt happening no matter what). I think that mindset needs to change. I think society has enough in place (IE jr colleges, student loans, grants, and more) to reasonably give everyone who is doing everything in their power to succeed a reasonable chance. Unfortunately they cant do everything if the individual isnt making choices to put themselves in position to develop into successful contributors to society.

2) The left is currently putting out a rhetoric that everything bad that is going on in the black community is a result of them being victims of the history of this country. It takes accountability away from decisions that are going on every day. Yes, the past was bad. Blacks arent the only race whos had to deal with slavery or anything horrible in the history of mankind though.

This rhetoric creates division between 2 races and doesnt resolve anything. When our sports heros are wearing socks depicting all cops as pigs and encouraging people to not cooperate or show respect with police- that doesnt help anybody.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 03:14 PM
1) I think organizations like black lives matter could do a lot of good for black people who have their whole future ahead of them. They could be setting up scholarships, programs to educationally prepare blacks for higher education. (I think a lot of people in general dont finish highschool because they dont feel it makes a difference if college isnt happening no matter what). I think that mindset needs to change. I think society has enough in place (IE jr colleges, student loans, grants, and more) to reasonably give everyone who is doing everything in their power to succeed a reasonable chance. Unfortunately they cant do everything if the individual isnt making choices to put themselves in position to develop into successful contributors to society.

2) The left is currently putting out a rhetoric that everything bad that is going on in the black community is a result of them being victims of the history of this country. It takes accountability away from decisions that are going on every day. Yes, the past was bad. Blacks arent the only race whos had to deal with slavery or anything horrible in the history of mankind though.

This rhetoric creates division between 2 races and doesnt resolve anything. When our sports heros are wearing socks depicting all cops as pigs and encouraging people to not cooperate or show respect with police- that doesnt help anybody.

Your first point is fine - I'm sure if BLM isn't already doing something like this, which for all I know they are, plenty of other organizations are doing or trying to do something similar. But yes any organizational push to help people better their education is a good thing.

Your second point again feels like it just doesn't recognize any kind of context, like leftist rhetoric came out of nowhere (that pesky vacuum thing again).

Like you realize the insane rhetoric and propaganda that came out of the right/racist ideologies for centuries exists in a major way correct? Look up Lee Atwater. Look up Gerrymandering and how that effects people of color. The left in all honesty is a reaction to the right for the most part. It's course correction, nothing more.

But yes personal accountability, which I believe is a main point of yours, is absolutely important. Any rational person can agree with that - as an adult, ultimately it's on you to some degree to pull yourself out of ********. You may need help to do so, and that's fine, but you gotta take care of number 1 and hold yourself accountable. the issue is many of these problems begin in childhood and fester. So ideally you want to make things better for people as early as possible.

I believe many young black males, specifically in urban environments, feel like they're targeted/criminalized in the eyes of police by adolescence. Thus another issue.

And just to stick this out there for a moment, does the white community need to look at itself when white teens and even adults go on shooting rampages? Cause that seems to happen a decent amount. Or is that on the individual and the white community isn't accountable? (this is a bit of sarcasm obviously, just pointing to this idea of "racial communities", which I don't feel exist exactly in the way some people paint them to)

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 03:21 PM
1) I think organizations like black lives matter could do a lot of good for black people who have their whole future ahead of them. They could be setting up scholarships, programs to educationally prepare blacks for higher education. (I think a lot of people in general dont finish highschool because they dont feel it makes a difference if college isnt happening no matter what). I think that mindset needs to change. I think society has enough in place (IE jr colleges, student loans, grants, and more) to reasonably give everyone who is doing everything in their power to succeed a reasonable chance. Unfortunately they cant do everything if the individual isnt making choices to put themselves in position to develop into successful contributors to society.

2) The left is currently putting out a rhetoric that everything bad that is going on in the black community is a result of them being victims of the history of this country. It takes accountability away from decisions that are going on every day. Yes, the past was bad. Blacks arent the only race whos had to deal with slavery or anything horrible in the history of mankind though.

This rhetoric creates division between 2 races and doesnt resolve anything. When our sports heros are wearing socks depicting all cops as pigs and encouraging people to not cooperate or show respect with police- that doesnt help anybody.

1- like the United Negro College Fund?

2- they are not, they are simply bringing up in a very uncomfortable way (because trying nice clearly didn't work) that blacks are targeted at an insanely higher rate compared to other races.


Look, non-blacks are being forced to deal with this issue now. It's everywhere. And that makes many uncomfortable. But understand, that is the point. You can't hide in your suburban home anymore, watching the news, and saying, "oh that's a shame". If people are FORCED to deal with the absolute reality that blacks and whites have a monster disparity in wealth, education, living conditions, representation, incarceration, etc, perhaps change will happen faster.

It's funny, the extreme sides are this:
- blacks blaming the white man for all their problems
- whites claiming all is equal and blacks should stop crying

the truth is in the middle. MLK always said the biggest problem in the progression of blacks, was all the white people who agreed with the cause, but sat on their *** and did nothing. That is so true, and even to this day, rings so loudly.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 03:22 PM
1- like the United Negro College Fund?

2- they are not, they are simply bringing up in a very uncomfortable way (because trying nice clearly didn't work) that blacks are targeted at an insanely higher rate compared to other races.


Look, non-blacks are being forced to deal with this issue now. It's everywhere. And that makes many uncomfortable. But understand, that is the point. You can't hide in your suburban home anymore, watching the news, and saying, "oh that's a shame". If people are FORCED to deal with the absolute reality that blacks and whites have a monster disparity in wealth, education, living conditions, representation, etc, perhaps change will happen faster.

It's funny, the extreme sides are this:
- blacks blaming the white man for all their problems
- whites claiming all is equal and blacks should stop crying

the truth is in the middle. MLK always said the biggest problem in the progression of blacks, was all the white people who agreed with the cause, but sat on their *** and did nothing. That is so true, and even to this day, rings so loudly.

Well said man.

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 03:36 PM
Your first point is fine - I'm sure if BLM isn't already doing something like this, which for all I know they are, plenty of other organizations are doing or trying to do something similar. But yes any organizational push to help people better their education is a good thing.

Your second point again feels like it just doesn't recognize any kind of context, like leftist rhetoric came out of nowhere (that pesky vacuum thing again).

Like you realize the insane rhetoric and propaganda that came out of the right/racist ideologies for centuries exists in a major way correct? Look up Lee Atwater. Look up Gerrymandering and how that effects people of color. The left in all honesty is a reaction to the right for the most part. It's course correction, nothing more.

But yes personal accountability, which I believe is a main point of yours, is absolutely important. Any rational person can agree with that - as an adult, ultimately it's on you to some degree to pull yourself out of ********. You may need help to do so, and that's fine, but you gotta take care of number 1 and hold yourself accountable. the issue is many of these problems begin in childhood and fester. So ideally you want to make things better for people as early as possible.

I believe many young black males, specifically in urban environments, feel like they're targeted/criminalized in the eyes of police by adolescence. Thus another issue.

And just to stick this out there for a moment, does the white community need to look at itself when white teens and even adults go on shooting rampages? Cause that seems to happen a decent amount. Or is that on the individual and the white community isn't accountable? (this is a bit of sarcasm obviously, just pointing to this idea of "racial communities", which I don't feel exist exactly in the way some people paint them to)

1) BLM uses most of its energy protesting blacks being killed by white cops (or cops in general). I have never seen a BLM protesting a black killing another black (which happens far more often). I mean do those black lives not matter? Also the likelyhood of the black person who is killed being completely innocent is far greater in black on black crime then it is when a cop kills a black person.

If you dont feel a "it's all white peoples fault" undertone to almost all BLM's movements, Im not sure what to tell you. and LMAO at the 10 demands black people have for white people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxinXkVi1tg made by one of the founders of BLM.

I mean BLM started after the Mike Brown shooting. and their march was based on a complete lie "Hands up dont shoot" (see how they are completely taking accountability away from mike brown and portraying him as the victim). And as far as values go- I listened to his parents interview.... and they didnt seem at all concerned that he had just robbed a store and committed assault minutes earlier. (My guess is thats not the first time Mike Brown broke the law) because it didnt even phase his parents.

As far as white peoples values go and school shootings. They usually arent racial (except Dylan Roof), and its usually clear they are outside the norm of white people and society. They are especially sicktroubled people (Infact thats usually what they are angry about). Now if some huge percentage of white kids were trying to do this or showing understanding to the shooters- I would think there is a problem with the white culture.

It isnt like the muslim killings where the white people shooting up schools are doing it for some central cause like the bible or some cult. Its hard to even link it to the environment they grew up in because they are such a small fraction. If you think these school shooters are being defended by whites- Ill stand right by you denouncing them.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 03:43 PM
1) BLM uses most of its energy protesting blacks being killed by white cops (or cops in general). I have never seen a BLM protesting a black killing another black (which happens far more often). I mean do those black lives not matter? Also the likelyhood of the black person who is killed being completely innocent is far greater in black on black crime then it is when a cop kills a black person.

If you dont feel a "it's all white peoples fault" undertone to almost all BLM's movements, Im not sure what to tell you. and LMAO at the 10 demands black people have for white people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxinXkVi1tg made by one of the founders of BLM.

I mean BLM started after the Mike Brown shooting. and their march was based on a complete lie "Hands up dont shoot" (see how they are completely taking accountability away from mike brown and portraying him as the victim). And as far as values go- I listened to his parents interview.... and they didnt seem at all concerned that he had just robbed a store and committed assault minutes earlier. (My guess is thats not the first time Mike Brown broke the law) because it didnt even phase his parents.

As far as white peoples values go and school shootings. They usually arent racial (except Dylan Roof), and its usually clear they are outside the norm of white people and society. They are especially sicktroubled people (Infact thats usually what they are angry about). Now if some huge percentage of white kids were trying to do this or showing understanding to the shooters- I would think there is a problem with the white culture.

It isnt like the muslim killings where the white people shooting up schools are doing it for some central cause like the bible or some cult. Its hard to even link it to the environment they grew up in because they are such a small fraction. If you think these school shooters are being defended by whites- Ill stand right by you denouncing them.

Is this video not made by Glenn Beck's The Blaze? Just listen to that music and watch that video and think about the word "propaganda"

Context matters dude.

Go look at what Hawkeye wrote about "asking nicely" and trying to address these issues without losing it. People reach boiling points when they've been abused decade after decade.

Let's just agree to disagree and you can go back to listening to Ben Shapiro and Glenn Beck, who I'm sure both have a deep understanding of the black experience in America.

btw there are actually some Republicans and people on the right who I find rational. So I'm not blind to the other side. But most of the right/Republican party is pretty disgusting (see gerrymandering & the Red Map Project if you want to understand just a sliver of what I'm talking about).

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 03:53 PM
Is this video not made by Glenn Beck's The Blaze? Just listen to that music and watch that video and think about the word "propaganda"

Context matters dude.

Go look at what Hawkeye wrote about "asking nicely" and trying to address these issues without losing it. People reach boiling points when they've been abused decade after decade.

Let's just agree to disagree and you can go back to listening to Ben Shapiro and Glenn Beck, who I'm sure both have a deep understanding of the black experience in America.

btw there are actually some Republicans and people on the right who I find rational. So I'm not blind to the other side. But most of the right/Republican party is pretty disgusting (see gerrymandering & the Red Map Project if you want to understand just a sliver of what I'm talking about).

I am considered conservative on this site. I am not Republican, but I am in the middle.

btw, gerrymandering is on both sides, at a relentless rate. It, and financial institutions controlling our Congress, are the 2 biggest problems we face with our govt.

D-Leethal
10-18-2017, 04:05 PM
yeah but we are not even a generation removed from the drug war. Whites never endured slavery, Jim Crowe laws, financial institutions breaking up families over home loans, social security excluding their main job skills, the war on drugs, etc.

Dude, blacks have systematically been put in a hole. Do they need to face the mirror and fix their number of fatherless families? Oh yeah, for sure they do. But it's a fact that being born black is going to give you the opposite of a head start in the US. I get you are trying to lump in poor whites, but they aren't in the same boat. At all. Whites have had the advantage for 200+ years and counting.

What life advantage does a dirt poor white guy living in a trailer park with a meth head mom and no dad have over a poor black kid growing up in some inner city broken home? I'm not talking about facing subtle racism day in and day out, I'm talking about advantages when it comes to getting out of poverty. If we're talking on a macro level then I think we are largely in agreement, but not on a micro level.

Hawkeye15
10-18-2017, 04:10 PM
What life advantage does a dirt poor white guy living in a trailer park with a meth head mom and no dad have over a poor black kid growing up in some inner city broken home? I'm not talking about facing subtle racism day in and day out, I'm talking about advantages when it comes to getting out of poverty. If we're talking on a macro level then I think we are largely in agreement, but not on a micro level.

I am referring to a macro level. The white kid you describe won the, "my parents are stupid" lottery. The black kid you are describing won the, "I was born black" lottery. Big difference.

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 04:23 PM
I am considered conservative on this site. I am not Republican, but I am in the middle.

btw, gerrymandering is on both sides, at a relentless rate. It, and financial institutions controlling our Congress, are the 2 biggest problems we face with our govt.

Agreed on big money in politics and gerrymandering being insanely large problems that we need to tackle asap. I'm sure dems gerrymander too but it doesn't seem to be on the same scale or working in dem favor at all in recent memory. It's possible that it's because dems suck at it - I feel like the Republican messaging machine is far more effective than the dems, and in general I think dems don't play dirty enough. Repubs in power seem to be willing to do whatever it takes to win and honestly I think dems need to meet that, although it does hurt moral compass to do so. It's a bit of a catch 22.

In my eyes it's a shame Kasich didn't win the party's nomination last year. He was literally the only one with an actual positive message of unification and some substance behind his words instead of just playing the blame game. But unfortunately substance seems to lack value on the right (again I'm not saying there aren't people on the right with actual substance behind their words/ideologies... but they seem marginalized in the GOP now)

likemystylez
10-18-2017, 04:54 PM
Is this video not made by Glenn Beck's The Blaze? Just listen to that music and watch that video and think about the word "propaganda"

Context matters dude.

Go look at what Hawkeye wrote about "asking nicely" and trying to address these issues without losing it. People reach boiling points when they've been abused decade after decade.

Let's just agree to disagree and you can go back to listening to Ben Shapiro and Glenn Beck, who I'm sure both have a deep understanding of the black experience in America.

btw there are actually some Republicans and people on the right who I find rational. So I'm not blind to the other side. But most of the right/Republican party is pretty disgusting (see gerrymandering & the Red Map Project if you want to understand just a sliver of what I'm talking about).

I dont watch Glenn Beck- just typed black people 10 demands into youtube and that was the first of hundreds of videos.

But yeah- Ben Shapiro, Larry Elder- both guys I would trust more than people on here to know what they are talking about.

So yeah- go ahead and keep watching Young Turks, and listening to idiots running around saying hands up dont shoot in an effort to race bait.... and keep muddying the waters of a conversation using your vacum line

HeartOfStarks
10-18-2017, 05:05 PM
I dont watch Glenn Beck- just typed black people 10 demands into youtube and that was the first of hundreds of videos.

But yeah- Ben Shapiro, Larry Elder- both guys I would trust more than people on here to know what they are talking about.

So yeah- go ahead and keep watching Young Turks, and listening to idiots running around saying hands up dont shoot in an effort to race bait.... and keep muddying the waters of a conversation using your vacum line

Haha well the vacuum thing actually does matter. Maybe one day you'll internalize that. I genuinely hope so.

I honestly don't even know who young Turks is. I get my info from a wide variety of sources and actually listen to both sides- I'm not a bubble guy.

Also I read books. Like actual tangible books written by legit historians. And I'll always do that. It's enjoyable and enlightening for me. I'd suggest to anyone willing to consider it to pay less attention to pundits, YouTube, social media and opinion journalists. But yeah I'm happy with where I get my information. I've learned how to vet things properly over my life.

IndyRealist
10-19-2017, 01:30 AM
The laws are created in an attempt to be fair to everyone. The United States affords its citizens the most freedom of any society in the history of civilization.

So all this protest is simply because there are more whites than blacks in the country? Why aren't other groups complaining like this then? There are plenty of groups that have less population than blacks- is the law systematically oppressive to all of those groups?

And again- saying there are more whites isn't exactly evidence of the law being unfair to certain groups. There are more women than men on the planet, yet most people argue that men are given more freedom (particularly in the middle east)

I'm not really following this thread anymore, just wanted to chime in and say that's either incredibly naive or willfully blind. The people in charge rig the system to stay in charge. That's not being fair to everyone.

Gerrymandering. Capital gains tax. The system is rigged so the rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and the people in power keep their power.

Vinylman
10-19-2017, 07:17 AM
I'm not really following this thread anymore, just wanted to chime in and say that's either incredibly naive or willfully blind. The people in charge rig the system to stay in charge. That's not being fair to everyone.

Gerrymandering. Capital gains tax. The system is rigged so the rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and the people in power keep their power.

yep and none of that is exclusive to either political party...

there will never be major breakthroughs on race relations created by government because the two parties have to much invested in poor relations continuing...

I have said it 100 times on this site ... the duopoly of the American political system only benefits the two parties... not the people

Hawkeye15
10-19-2017, 09:26 AM
I'm not really following this thread anymore, just wanted to chime in and say that's either incredibly naive or willfully blind. The people in charge rig the system to stay in charge. That's not being fair to everyone.

Gerrymandering. Capital gains tax. The system is rigged so the rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and the people in power keep their power.

like nearly every civilized system ever.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2017, 09:37 AM
yep and none of that is exclusive to either political party...

there will never be major breakthroughs on race relations created by government because the two parties have to much invested in poor relations continuing...

I have said it 100 times on this site ... the duopoly of the American political system only benefits the two parties... not the people

which is what makes the finger pointing from the Dems and Reps so hilarious to me. Even on this site, it's argument after argument, over, "your side did this!".

Neither side works for the people. Neither care about our well being. They are the same, they just dress, talk, and act differently. They are the same ****ing thing

HeartOfStarks
10-19-2017, 10:21 AM
which is what makes the finger pointing from the Dems and Reps so hilarious to me. Even on this site, it's argument after argument, over, "your side did this!".

Neither side works for the people. Neither care about our well being. They are the same, they just dress, talk, and act differently. They are the same ****ing thing

Calling them the same is false equivalency and simply untrue, lazy thinking. They're the same on climate, which is arguably the most pressing issue of our day? They're the same on LGBT issues, or reasonable gun control laws? I could go on and on but one side believes in religious fairy tales and thinks it knows better than professional climatologists and has a party makeup that's almost all white while the other side is diverse, actually defers to climate and energy experts, attempts to not pollute water supplies of millions of people so the Koch brothers can have pipelines, etc etc.

The one area they're both terrible at and are close is corporate welfare and dumping endless money into the military industrial complex while keeping us in endless war. But even there the right tends to be more hawkish.

The both sides are the same and terrible is just ******** though. The right is in fantasy Jesus land.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2017, 10:51 AM
Calling them the same is false equivalency and simply untrue, lazy thinking. They're the same on climate, which is arguably the most pressing issue of our day? They're the same on LGBT issues, or reasonable gun control laws? I could go on and on but one side believes in religious fairy tales and thinks it knows better than professional climatologists and has a party makeup that's almost all white while the other side is diverse, actually defers to climate and energy experts, attempts to not pollute water supplies of millions of people so the Koch brothers can have pipelines, etc etc.

The one area they're both terrible at and are close is corporate welfare and dumping endless money into the military industrial complex while keeping us in endless war. But even there the right tends to be more hawkish.

The both sides are the same and terrible is just ******** though. The right is in fantasy Jesus land.

keep believing the Dems care about your well being dude.

They both answer to the same line of people. Money, lobbyists, and special interest groups. The only difference is, people decide what side to be on depending on what special interests that party caters to.

I won't deny their campaigning, and their tactics for convincing people to follow them are the same, they are very different. But at the end of the day, the 2 party system is not built for the people. It's built for the establishment already in place to continue gaining more power and control. And shame on us, we put them there.

Our forefathers would roll over in their graves if they saw Congress today. Instead of representing the people, they gerrymander for their life long positions, continue to give themselves benefits nobody else enjoys, and line their pockets with special interest groups, and corporate money.

It's a cute fight in front of us, "we are so different!". No, they are not. Just on the surface.

If you hate one side more, that is cool. But don't think one side cares about you more than the other. If you do, well, they succeeded in 1 case..

Vinylman
10-19-2017, 10:51 AM
Calling them the same is false equivalency and simply untrue, lazy thinking. They're the same on climate, which is arguably the most pressing issue of our day? They're the same on LGBT issues, or reasonable gun control laws? I could go on and on but one side believes in religious fairy tales and thinks it knows better than professional climatologists and has a party makeup that's almost all white while the other side is diverse, actually defers to climate and energy experts, attempts to not pollute water supplies of millions of people so the Koch brothers can have pipelines, etc etc.

The one area they're both terrible at and are close is corporate welfare and dumping endless money into the military industrial complex while keeping us in endless war. But even there the right tends to be more hawkish.

The both sides are the same and terrible is just ******** though. The right is in fantasy Jesus land.

haha

someone else co-opted by wedge issues that are peripheral to issues that matter to every day americans....

You are being duped and don't even realize it because you actually believe the majority of Americans believe the polar views on those issues rather than understanding that it is the small minority of each side that support the extremes when it comes to actual policies to be implemented.

HeartOfStarks
10-19-2017, 10:52 AM
That said I agree the two party system sucks.

Republicans need to revert to focusing on smaller, local government where it actually makes sense and genuine financial and resource conservatism, minimizing bloat where genuinely needed. Not talking about getting rid of the energy department that tracks nuclear proliferation and climate change.

I watched the old Romney Obama and McCain Obama debates a couple weeks ago and the difference with how Romney and Mccain Sound vs what we have now was startling. Those guys were just substantive.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2017, 10:54 AM
That said I agree the two party system sucks.

Republicans need to revert to focusing on smaller, local government where it actually makes sense and genuine financial and resource conservatism, minimizing bloat where genuinely needed. Not talking about getting rid of the energy department that tracks nuclear proliferation and climate change.

I watched the old Romney Obama and McCain Obama debates a couple weeks ago and the difference with how Romney and Mccain Sound vs what we have now was startling. Those guys were just substantive.

the Republican party itself needs a massive change in direction. It will come as the older, religious generation dies off. Young conservatives don't hold the same social issue beliefs as the traditional republican party, which has yet to catch up.

Energy Dept is funny to me. They have massively failed at their initial goal. That is the biggest issue for conservatives. While most don't have an alternative option in mind, the baseline theory of cutting useless departments, I am all for. But have an alternative plan ready to go in that case..

HeartOfStarks
10-19-2017, 10:54 AM
haha

someone else co-opted by wedge issues that are peripheral to issues that matter to every day americans....

You are being duped and don't even realize it because you actually believe the majority of Americans believe the polar views on those issues rather than understanding that it is the small minority of each side that support the extremes when it comes to actual policies to be implemented.

Climate isn't a wedge issue. It's a survival issue. Enjoy your ignorance I'm sure you have an extensive science background.

Vinylman
10-19-2017, 12:07 PM
Climate isn't a wedge issue. It's a survival issue. Enjoy your ignorance I'm sure you have an extensive science background.

I knew you would fall for it... such a sheepl

For 98% of the people the climate argument has nothing to do with global warming it has everything to do with HOW we deal with it and more importantly WHO pays for dealing with it...

Do you think Trump exited the climate deal because he really believes that global warming doesn't exist?

If you do you really are beyond help

LMFAO

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 12:49 PM
I think it's past the point that global warming ISN'T an issue. The question is, as Vinyl stated, how do we mitigate the effects of it without putting others in danger. In many areas, there is a lack of internet access or toilet paper. What makes you think those individuals have the means to more costly energy sources? It might do you some good to travel to the rural areas of India or some more poverty-stricken areas outside the North America. You'll quickly realize that the energy sources being used today are all they have. Without it, do you know what happens? They die. Not to mention costs. Do you think employers and businesses are simply going to take on the costs because they are good and nice environmentally friendly people? Costs gets passed on to consumers. Even if Trump forced all these businesses to be environmentally friendly, you know what China will do? Flood the markets with their much cheaper goods and I guarantee you, the majority of Americans are not buying American-made products just because they were manufactured in an environmentally friendly process. It means Americans lose jobs. This has to be a collective solution and quite frankly, some countries aren't playing by the rules - which would put others at risk of also losing their competitive advantage.

HeartOfStarks
10-19-2017, 02:08 PM
I knew you would fall for it... such a sheepl

For 98% of the people the climate argument has nothing to do with global warming it has everything to do with HOW we deal with it and more importantly WHO pays for dealing with it...

Do you think Trump exited the climate deal because he really believes that global warming doesn't exist?

If you do you really are beyond help

LMFAO

I don't know what to think of Trump, other than he's an narcissistic ******* who stands for nothing and has scammed people his entire life, and he was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

Thanks for calling me a sheep though, I appreciate the ad hominem attack haha LMFAO haha LMFAO did I do that right? LMFAO haha

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 04:10 PM
Both parties are the same? I wonder if Hillary would've appointed Jeff Sessions, Scott Pruitt, Rick Perry, and Betsy DeVos to their respective posts. Jesus, people. Both parties have their problems and some of those problems are the same, but equating the two parties as being "the same" is totally ****ing stupid.

HeartOfStarks
10-19-2017, 04:19 PM
Both parties are the same? I wonder if Hillary would've appointed Jeff Sessions, Scott Pruitt, Rick Perry, and Betsy DeVos to their respective posts. Jesus, people. Both parties have their problems and some of those problems are the same, but equating the two parties as being "the same" is totally ****ing stupid.

Wait so Amway shouldn't be running the Department of Education? Why did you have to come in here and make sense? Seriously though THANK YOU, Jesus ****in Christ

D-Leethal
10-19-2017, 04:22 PM
I think most people are Libertarian at heart even if they don't know it. If they were given an equal platform I think they would win on nearly all the issues.

D-Leethal
10-19-2017, 04:25 PM
Both parties are the same? I wonder if Hillary would've appointed Jeff Sessions, Scott Pruitt, Rick Perry, and Betsy DeVos to their respective posts. Jesus, people. Both parties have their problems and some of those problems are the same, but equating the two parties as being "the same" is totally ****ing stupid.

I think the point is that she would be beholden to her donors first, second, third and the peoples interest would get the table scraps. That and she would be pimping out US policy for CF kickbacks.

HeartOfStarks
10-19-2017, 04:30 PM
I think most people are Libertarian at heart even if they don't know it. If they were given an equal platform I think they would win on nearly all the issues.

A mix of Libertarian and Socialism in terms of socially funded public services like police, fire department, public schools, military etc. etc. yes. Finding that balance is the tricky part especially with an enormous population but some social safety nets are necessary. In a purely Libertarian world the cops and fire department wouldn't come until you gave them your credit card number, no one would come get your garbage without you paying for it every time, etc. etc.

But hate on Hillary all you want, and I have plenty of issues with her as a politician personally, but I trust she would've been far more qualified and competent at this job. I understand the general distrust of government/politicians though so I get why there was such support for the idea of an "outsider". I just wish it was a different outsider who had real substance behind them.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2017, 04:32 PM
Both parties are the same? I wonder if Hillary would've appointed Jeff Sessions, Scott Pruitt, Rick Perry, and Betsy DeVos to their respective posts. Jesus, people. Both parties have their problems and some of those problems are the same, but equating the two parties as being "the same" is totally ****ing stupid.

Hillary would be too busy kicking back to the donors from her lifelong campaign, and to the special interest groups that got her elected. Talk about a career politician, which is exactly what people were sick of when they put the nut job in the oval office. Clinton is a straight up criminal.

They are the ****ing same. In that, they share the same desire to work for the people (minimal to none). In that, they spend more time debating and talking than they do coming up with solutions to problems. In that, they never take any responsibility, instead blaming the other.

We have a 2 party system that helps only those 2 parties and their politicians at a high level, and totally ignores the people.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2017, 04:32 PM
I think the point is that she would be beholden to her donors first, second, third and the peoples interest would get the table scraps. That and she would be pimping out US policy for CF kickbacks.

you would be shocked regarding our population. Too many idealists that ignore human nature.

Hawkeye15
10-19-2017, 04:33 PM
A mix of Libertarian and Socialism in terms of socially funded public services like police, fire department, public schools, military etc. etc. yes. Finding that balance is the tricky part especially with an enormous population but some social safety nets are necessary. In a purely Libertarian world the cops and fire department wouldn't come until you gave them your credit card number, no one would come get your garbage without you paying for it every time, etc. etc.

But hate on Hillary all you want, and I have plenty of issues with her as a politician personally, but I trust she would've been far more qualified and competent at this job. I understand the general distrust of government/politicians though so I get why there was such support for the idea of an "outsider". I just wish it was a different outsider who had real substance behind them.

absolutely. And we would have gotten the same old, same old. Not that I have any opinion on whether that is good or bad, but probably bad. Then again, we have yet to see what dust is left when Donny boy is done..

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 04:34 PM
Both parties are the same? I wonder if Hillary would've appointed Jeff Sessions, Scott Pruitt, Rick Perry, and Betsy DeVos to their respective posts. Jesus, people. Both parties have their problems and some of those problems are the same, but equating the two parties as being "the same" is totally ****ing stupid.

They're both incompetent. It's amazing George Washington and our founding fathers fought for these puppet-shows to happen. I mean, watching the debate with George Bush vs Reagan was respectful and informative. The past Republican debates reminded me of SNL. And Hillary getting a push from the DNC was downright pathetic. They literally gave Bernie the middle finger.

D-Leethal
10-19-2017, 04:42 PM
A mix of Libertarian and Socialism in terms of socially funded public services like police, fire department, public schools, military etc. etc. yes. Finding that balance is the tricky part especially with an enormous population but some social safety nets are necessary. In a purely Libertarian world the cops and fire department wouldn't come until you gave them your credit card number, no one would come get your garbage without you paying for it every time, etc. etc.

But hate on Hillary all you want, and I have plenty of issues with her as a politician personally, but I trust she would've been far more qualified and competent at this job. I understand the general distrust of government/politicians though so I get why there was such support for the idea of an "outsider". I just wish it was a different outsider who had real substance behind them.

Agreed on all fronts.

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 07:14 PM
Hillary would be too busy kicking back to the donors from her lifelong campaign, and to the special interest groups that got her elected.

Talk about a career politician, which is exactly what people were sick of when they put the nut job in the oval office. Clinton is a straight up criminal.

They are the ****ing same. In that, they share the same desire to work for the people (minimal to none). In that, they spend more time debating and talking than they do coming up with solutions to problems. In that, they never take any responsibility, instead blaming the other.

We have a 2 party system that helps only those 2 parties and their politicians at a high level, and totally ignores the people.

Yeah, and things are sssoooooooo much better under Trump. You think Hillary would be trying to pass this ******** tax cut for the wealthy? Trickle down doesn't work. She's a crook? Have you seen the **** Trump's done over the years? Not only do we have a president that's in it for the rich (which was people's main gripe about Hillary) but we also have to worry about 25 other things that she wouldn't have messed with. We took a step back and just because you don't like her cackle or you think that she'll go along with Wall Street, it doesn't mean we should've flipped the script and went along with this piece of ****.

Hillary's no saint but compared to who we got? Sweet Jesus you ****ing people got conned.

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 07:18 PM
I think the point is that she would be beholden to her donors first, second, third and the peoples interest would get the table scraps. That and she would be pimping out US policy for CF kickbacks.

Again, Trump isn't beholden himself? Why did he appoint DeVos? Pruitt? Tillerson? Why was Bannon his right hand man? You're making it sound like he's not incredibly dirty in his dealings. Christ Almighty it's like it was Hillary running against Thomas Jefferson orJesus.

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 07:35 PM
you would be shocked regarding our population. Too many idealists that ignore human nature.

It's rich that you're saying that because even though I was a Bernie guy, when it was Hillary verses Trump, I was all in. The Bernie Or Busts, the first timer third party voters because they hated Hillary/Trump, the people who refused to vote for either because they hated both.....We were going to get one or the other. Hillary going along with Big Business was one thing, Trump going along with Big Business plus ****ing up the EPA plus ****ing up the educational system plus ****ing up our world standing plus ****ing up our healthcare system plus......the list goes on and on. "But her emails.....". BUT EVERYTHING ABOUT HIM.

She wasn't my ideal candidate for president but he's my ideal nightmare for president. Just a perfect, absolute storm of hot garbage on a summer day.

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 07:41 PM
They're both incompetent. It's amazing George Washington and our founding fathers fought for these puppet-shows to happen. I mean, watching the debate with George Bush vs Reagan was respectful and informative. The past Republican debates reminded me of SNL. And Hillary getting a push from the DNC was downright pathetic. They literally gave Bernie the middle finger.

They're both incompetent? What the ****? She's inarguably one of the most qualified candidates of all time. He's inarguably the least.

Just saying that she's just as incompetent as him immediately throws away your opinion on the matter.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 07:48 PM
They're both incompetent? What the ****? She's inarguably one of the most qualified candidates of all time. He's inarguably the least.

Just saying that she's just as incompetent as him immediately throws away your opinion on the matter.

She's qualified based on tenure. That doesn't make her competent. I've seen teachers who have 35 years of experience and can't even teach at all. Through her connections, she's been able to get high into the political spectrum. If you think she is qualified, that's fine. But that doesn't make her competent. By your logic, she would be the most competent president.. because how many people besides her have had such a tenure? Biden? Don't you think Bill Clinton's presidency and exposure has opened up many doors for her?

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 08:00 PM
She's qualified based on tenure. That doesn't make her competent. I've seen teachers who have 35 years of experience and can't even teach at all. Through her connections, she's been able to get high into the political spectrum. If you think she is qualified, that's fine. But that doesn't make her competent. By your logic, she would be the most competent president.. because how many people besides her have had such a tenure? Biden? Don't you think Bill Clinton's presidency and exposure has opened up many doors for her?

Guaran-goddamn-tee you that teacher knows more about that subject than some rich snakeoil salesmen.

You don't think she's competent enough to hold that position? Fine. But Trump does? I just don't get this talk. "Farmer Hillary is not perfect to run the chicken coop because she's made mistakes in the past so let's elect Donald the Wolf because hey.....uhhhh, Farmer Hillary isn't perfect."

flea
10-19-2017, 09:02 PM
They're both incompetent? What the ****? She's inarguably one of the most qualified candidates of all time. He's inarguably the least.

Just saying that she's just as incompetent as him immediately throws away your opinion on the matter.

Hahahahahha qualified to do what exactly? Chop up and sell off the American federal government piece by piece? Even if we wanted that we could just hire Mitt Romney. He's actually got better experience in profiting off of other peoples' misfortune, though he cannot hold ground with Hillary when it comes to corruption and shamelessness.

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 10:28 PM
Hahahahahha qualified to do what exactly? Chop up and sell off the American federal government piece by piece? Even if we wanted that we could just hire Mitt Romney. He's actually got better experience in profiting off of other peoples' misfortune, though he cannot hold ground with Hillary when it comes to corruption and shamelessness.

Having fun with Donald "Gonna Drain That Swamp" Trump yet? You're making it sound like Hillary is the same as Trump on everything else but would have ruined us financially and given the country over to the banks when what I'm saying is they're both shady as **** when it comes to Big Business but at least Hillary wouldn't be ruining our education system, our EPA, our standing in the world, etc....


And I like how you bring in Romney because you can't defend Trump. Romney made a living off of destroying companies for profit. And Hillary would be worse than him how? Let alone Trump.

Saddletramp
10-19-2017, 10:33 PM
I hate to think that a bunch of dudes in a sports forum are ganging up on Hillary because she's a woman but honestly, I'm not seeing a lot of difference between her and Trump on what everyone is *****ing about her for doing.


But hey, I guess I'm the one being a dope for arguing politics on a basketball forum and expecting something different.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 11:23 PM
Guaran-goddamn-tee you that teacher knows more about that subject than some rich snakeoil salesmen.

You don't think she's competent enough to hold that position? Fine. But Trump does? I just don't get this talk. "Farmer Hillary is not perfect to run the chicken coop because she's made mistakes in the past so let's elect Donald the Wolf because hey.....uhhhh, Farmer Hillary isn't perfect."

When did I say Trump was competent? I clearly said he wasn't. Let's not start using false narratives here.. My point is, Hillary Clinton isn't competent. When she ran for senate of NY, everyone knew she was doing so because she wanted to be president. She didn't give a damn for New Yorkers other than her campaigning for Wall Street funds.. so yes, she is a snake. And her lying about getting shot at after leaving a helicopter was hilariously debunked when video showed her laughing and hugging a little girl. Again, your definition of qualified is based off tenure. Mines is based off track record and she's had a terrible one. Her secretary of state tenure may have been the worst considering what was at stake. But it's cool if you hate Trump, too. I don't like the guy but I don't see why you think someone who doesn't like Clinton is automatically a Trump-lover. Some people are just tired of ******** and thought Trump would be some new blood. Can't blame them - look at all the lies they have been spoken.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 11:26 PM
I hate to think that a bunch of dudes in a sports forum are ganging up on Hillary because she's a woman but honestly, I'm not seeing a lot of difference between her and Trump on what everyone is *****ing about her for doing.


But hey, I guess I'm the one being a dope for arguing politics on a basketball forum and expecting something different.

I would never vote for Hillary. My vote would have probably went to Rubio. I live in NY so it doesn't really matter who I vote - it's blue all day here. Why do you assume people gang up on Hillary because she's a woman? There's enough reasons to hate her based off what she has done. If Hillary was a man, do you think we wouldn't hate him? I mean, just look at her response when they asked her why she got paid so much by Wall Street.

Hillary Clinton: "That's what they were willing to pay me so that's what I got."

oh yeah, they paid you $300k to talk about helping inner cities...

Saddletramp
10-20-2017, 12:21 AM
When did I say Trump was competent? I clearly said he wasn't. Let's not start using false narratives here.. My point is, Hillary Clinton isn't competent. When she ran for senate of NY, everyone knew she was doing so because she wanted to be president. She didn't give a damn for New Yorkers other than her campaigning for Wall Street funds.. so yes, she is a snake. And her lying about getting shot at after leaving a helicopter was hilariously debunked when video showed her laughing and hugging a little girl. Again, your definition of qualified is based off tenure. Mines is based off track record and she's had a terrible one. Her secretary of state tenure may have been the worst considering what was at stake. But it's cool if you hate Trump, too. I don't like the guy but I don't see why you think someone who doesn't like Clinton is automatically a Trump-lover. Some people are just tired of ******** and thought Trump would be some new blood. Can't blame them - look at all the lies they have been spoken.

Based off of track records you have Trump as a better candidate? Because you clearly have so much against Hillary that you must think Trump is better. By equating them both being incompetent you're putting them on the same field and they clearly are not. Not even close. And you've been dogging her and I haven't seen you dog him.


It's one or the other. Hopefully in the future it'll change but a year ago it was Hillary versus Trump. One or the other. Was never a Hillary supporter.....until she went head to head with that guy. So she was shady as a NY senator? She lied about a Noooo......Unbelievable. He's been shady at everything he's ever done.

It's seriously astounding to me that a person can see Trump and the way he is handling himself as president and think, yeah, but "Hillary got caught lying about getting shot at" (which I've never even heard of) so that plus her Wall Street speeches make her unqualified but the guy that.....where do I begin.....you know what, it's all out there. The things he's done that should have made him unelectable from the start are numerous and too time consuming to even start mentioning (and this is BEFORE) he was elected.

It makes zero ****ing sense.

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 12:26 AM
Based off of track records you have Trump as a better candidate? Because you clearly have so much against Hillary that you must think Trump is better. By equating them both being incompetent you're putting them on the same field and they clearly are not. Not even close. And you've been dogging her and I haven't seen you dog him.


It's one or the other. Hopefully in the future it'll change but a year ago it was Hillary versus Trump. One or the other. Was never a Hillary supporter.....until she went head to head with that guy. So she was shady as a NY senator? She lied about a Noooo......Unbelievable. He's been shady at everything he's ever done.

It's seriously astounding to me that a person can see Trump and the way he is handling himself as president and think, yeah, but "Hillary got caught lying about getting shot at" (which I've never even heard of) so that plus her Wall Street speeches make her unqualified but the guy that.....where do I begin.....you know what, it's all out there. The things he's done that should have made him unelectable from the start are numerous and too time consuming to even start mentioning (and this is BEFORE) he was elected.

It makes zero ****ing sense.

You're so triggered man... I said they were both incompetent and you go on about me defending Trump. Whatever, you can rant all you want but it doesn't convince me that she's incompetent.. which is ultimately, my argument. Trump didn't win based off qualifications, FYI. He won because people are annoyed by politics in general. His strategy was to be a populist and it worked. You want to blame someone then go blame the politicians for screwing up every little thing to the point where people began trusting some real estate billionaire...

Saddletramp
10-20-2017, 12:30 AM
I would never vote for Hillary. My vote would have probably went to Rubio. I live in NY so it doesn't really matter who I vote - it's blue all day here.

And I live in Texas but I voted in the primaries and the election. People talk about wanting change but change ain't gonna come if you just throw in the towel. Blue is starting to get deeper here and it might one day turn back a solid shade. Oh, and Rubio wasn't running in the election. I wanted Bernie. When he was gone I didn't turn into a Bernie or Bust Bro. I saw both candidates as our only choices, because that's what they were..



Why do you assume people gang up on Hillary because she's a woman? There's enough reasons to hate her based off what she has done.

And there's more reasons to hate Trump. I can't even begin to name them all if I want to have a complete list. There's one major difference in the two, though.


If Hillary was a man, do you think we wouldn't hate him? I mean, just look at her response when they asked her why she got paid so much by Wall Street.

Hillary Clinton: "That's what they were willing to pay me so that's what I got."

oh yeah, they paid you $300k to talk about helping inner cities...

You don't think Trump has ever done something onbthis level? Why is it that she does it and "oh my god, she's gonna sell us out to Wall Street" while Trump gets elected (partially on a "drain the swamp" campaign) and then fills his economic top seats with Wall Street guys yet it's Hillary that is still blamed for being in bed with them?


Christ All****ingMighty. You're a New Yorker! You haven't seen what he's done? But you sure as **** have seen what she's done in 1/8 of the time.

Saddletramp
10-20-2017, 12:33 AM
You're so triggered man... I said they were both incompetent and you go on about me defending Trump. Whatever, you can rant all you want but it doesn't convince me that she's incompetent.. which is ultimately, my argument. Trump didn't win based off qualifications, FYI. He won because people are annoyed by politics in general. His strategy was to be a populist and it worked. You want to blame someone then go blame the politicians for screwing up every little thing to the point where people began trusting some real estate billionaire...

Hillary wouldn't have been a worse president then Trump. She was not incompetent, no matter how much you say it. She was a ****** senator in your state? Sorry, man. But she's not on his level.

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 12:37 AM
And I live in Texas but I voted in the primaries and the election. People talk about wanting change but change ain't gonna come if you just throw in the towel. Blue is starting to get deeper here and it might one day turn back a solid shade. Oh, and Rubio wasn't running in the election. I wanted Bernie. When he was gone I didn't turn into a Bernie or Bust Bro. I saw both candidates as our only choices, because that's what they were..




And there's more reasons to hate Trump. I can't even begin to name them all if I want to have a complete list. There's one major difference in the two, though.



You don't think Trump has ever done something onbthis level? Why is it that she does it and "oh my god, she's gonna sell us out to Wall Street" while Trump gets elected (partially on a "drain the swamp" campaign) and then fills his economic top seats with Wall Street guys yet it's Hillary that is still blamed for being in bed with them?


Christ All****ingMighty. You're a New Yorker! You haven't seen what he's done? But you sure as **** have seen what she's done in 1/8 of the time.

Trump has done all those things.. while being a businessman. The funny part is, Trump was actually well-respected by these politicians before he began running. I live in NY and no one said anything bad about Trump until he started running for president.

Obviously I didn't vote for Rubio.. I'm saying, he would be my choice if he was available for a vote. I voted for Ron Paul the previous years because I think this government just likes taking what they can with zero repercussions for those responsible of handling that money. And no, there isn't a huge difference. Hillary knew who Trump was when she took his money.. and went to his wedding. It all changed when Trump was ruining Hillary's plans of becoming president. The thing with Trump is, he's blunt and says what he feels. Hillary doesn't say it and we already have so much dirt on her. Imagine if she was blunt as well. Honestly, I don't care. They're both incompetent. I'm glad Trump won just so people realize that we need to hold politicians accountable because if not, more of this nonsense will happen. If Bernie won, great. Even though I find his ideas a bit extraordinary, I don't mind someone who is at least honest about his intentions. I liked Kasich, too. Trump won, what am I supposed to do? Hope he fails as a president?

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 12:42 AM
Hillary wouldn't have been a worse president then Trump. She was not incompetent, no matter how much you say it. She was a ****** senator in your state? Sorry, man. But she's not on his level.

She was a terrible senator who everyone knew was only in it because being a senator in NY was a fast-ticket experience boost to become president - which she raised funds doing so before even winning her second term. She's also a liar who switches positions depending on social influences. One moment she doesn't approve of gay marriage and the next, she said equal rights is important to her. Sorry, she is incompetent. If not for Bill, do you honestly think she would have succeeded to this point?

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 12:46 AM
And I live in Texas but I voted in the primaries and the election. People talk about wanting change but change ain't gonna come if you just throw in the towel. Blue is starting to get deeper here and it might one day turn back a solid shade. Oh, and Rubio wasn't running in the election. I wanted Bernie. When he was gone I didn't turn into a Bernie or Bust Bro. I saw both candidates as our only choices, because that's what they were..




And there's more reasons to hate Trump. I can't even begin to name them all if I want to have a complete list. There's one major difference in the two, though.



You don't think Trump has ever done something onbthis level? Why is it that she does it and "oh my god, she's gonna sell us out to Wall Street" while Trump gets elected (partially on a "drain the swamp" campaign) and then fills his economic top seats with Wall Street guys yet it's Hillary that is still blamed for being in bed with them?


Christ All****ingMighty. You're a New Yorker! You haven't seen what he's done? But you sure as **** have seen what she's done in 1/8 of the time.

Uhm, NY will never go red just like California won't. Texas, you better stop talking about banning guns or they'll never vote blue. It's the way it is. You can't honestly win them all. Hillary lost because people are tired of her lies. Why do you think she's done running? Hint: Because the Democratic party knows she will probably win the democratic nominee and then ultimately lose again so they don't want to risk another Republican president or Trump reign. And the fact that people leaked questions to her before debates.. are you kidding me? I wanted Bernie to win vs Hillary. That would have been epic. Bernie putting Trump on the heat of fire and watching Trump explode. But that didn't happen because stupid democrats wanted Hillary. Amazing stuff, huh?

Saddletramp
10-20-2017, 03:45 AM
The whole situation is amazing. And eye opening. And frustrating. And tiring.

And yes, Hillary's done, as well she should be. She'll be too old and honestly has left a sour taste in too many mouths to recover. But no matter how bad she actually would've been, it can't be worse than this guy. Hopefully next cycle (assuming we haven't all been nuked to hell) the American people get better candidates. I think I'm done with this conversation.

Vinylman
10-20-2017, 08:13 AM
I don't know what to think of Trump, other than he's an narcissistic ******* who stands for nothing and has scammed people his entire life, and he was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

Thanks for calling me a sheep though, I appreciate the ad hominem attack haha LMFAO haha LMFAO did I do that right? LMFAO haha

of course you have no response... just like the original post of yours I responded to...

eat at the trough of partisan politics like a good sheepl

Vinylman
10-20-2017, 08:30 AM
I think most people are Libertarian at heart even if they don't know it. If they were given an equal platform I think they would win on nearly all the issues.

yep... the sheepl can't see past how they are being emotionally manipulated by the two parties in power...

they think they are being offered a "choice" when in reality there is none other than wedge window dressing

Vinylman
10-20-2017, 08:40 AM
They're both incompetent? What the ****? She's inarguably one of the most qualified candidates of all time. He's inarguably the least.

Just saying that she's just as incompetent as him immediately throws away your opinion on the matter.

The absolutely most asinine belief in the history of politics... she is the definition of incompetence... go ahead... list all of her accomplishments... she failed on almost every big idea she ever tried to get through

I take that back ... she was successful in the 90s rounding up blacks and putting them in jail for drug offenses...

She was a champion of that legislation

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 08:56 AM
I hate to think that a bunch of dudes in a sports forum are ganging up on Hillary because she's a woman but honestly, I'm not seeing a lot of difference between her and Trump on what everyone is *****ing about her for doing.


But hey, I guess I'm the one being a dope for arguing politics on a basketball forum and expecting something different.

I mean, I would never defend Trump, he is a complete idiot who was elected because much of middle America is absolutely sick of politicians. Furthermore, the Dems did a terrible job running this last year. Even Dem cities lost ground compared to 2012.

Hillary is a criminal, who is a **** to her contributors and those who line her pockets. But that might be better than Trump, sadly.

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 08:58 AM
Yeah, and things are sssoooooooo much better under Trump. You think Hillary would be trying to pass this ******** tax cut for the wealthy? Trickle down doesn't work. She's a crook? Have you seen the **** Trump's done over the years? Not only do we have a president that's in it for the rich (which was people's main gripe about Hillary) but we also have to worry about 25 other things that she wouldn't have messed with. We took a step back and just because you don't like her cackle or you think that she'll go along with Wall Street, it doesn't mean we should've flipped the script and went along with this piece of ****.

Hillary's no saint but compared to who we got? Sweet Jesus you ****ing people got conned.

when did I say that? I am not a Trump support, nor am I a Hillary supporter. There is nobody that represents me that has come up for higher elections recently.

Trump and Hillary are both terrible. For different reasons. Their commonality is they would both suck running the country. Though Trump might be more damaging short term.

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 09:02 AM
The absolutely most asinine belief in the history of politics... she is the definition of incompetence... go ahead... list all of her accomplishments... she failed on almost every big idea she ever tried to get through

I take that back ... she was successful in the 90s rounding up blacks and putting them in jail for drug offenses...

She was a champion of that legislation

she was also able to almost single handedly able raise medical insurance rates by herself in the 90's. That was pretty sweet

Vinylman
10-20-2017, 09:40 AM
she was also able to almost single handedly able raise medical insurance rates by herself in the 90's. That was pretty sweet

people always forget how far right she was on most issues when the polls told her to be

And before saddletramp jumps down my throat... Trump is an asshat ...

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 10:05 AM
people always forget how far right she was on most issues when the polls told her to be

And before saddletramp jumps down my throat... Trump is an asshat ...

funny thing is, I think her husband was actually a pretty good President. I just think she is epically bad, and has ridden the name forever. Seriously, she fails relentlessly at what she does. I get that she is a career politician, which for some reason makes many people think she is "qualified". But she would have been a terrible selection.

The thing is, both were terrible selections. So saying one sucks isn't supporting the other..

Vinylman
10-20-2017, 10:17 AM
funny thing is, I think her husband was actually a pretty good President. I just think she is epically bad, and has ridden the name forever. Seriously, she fails relentlessly at what she does. I get that she is a career politician, which for some reason makes many people think she is "qualified". But she would have been a terrible selection.

The thing is, both were terrible selections. So saying one sucks isn't supporting the other..

yep... I am gonna wear this shirt tonight in all the sheepl's honor ... everyone in the poker room gets a kick out of it when I wear it...

https://imgur.com/rpctLp8

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 11:24 AM
yep... I am gonna wear this shirt tonight in all the sheepl's honor ... everyone in the poker room gets a kick out of it when I wear it...

https://imgur.com/rpctLp8

awesome shirt. I imagine BR does indeed hate both. Of course, I am not sure who they would identify with haha

Vinylman
10-20-2017, 11:33 AM
awesome shirt. I imagine BR does indeed hate both. Of course, I am not sure who they would identify with haha

god probably

LOL

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 11:43 AM
yep... I am gonna wear this shirt tonight in all the sheepl's honor ... everyone in the poker room gets a kick out of it when I wear it...

https://imgur.com/rpctLp8

Wow man, cool shirt. You must be the coolest guy in the poker room. So cool. And that sheepl thing, did you come up with that yourself?!?! Cause thatís pretty clever, never heard anyone say that before you.

Iím glad youíre here to show us the way. I donít know how you became so enlightened with an opinion so much more valid and informed than others, but wow, you totally did it. Youíre probably the life of every poker room youíre in, arenít you big guy?

But seriously sometimes as an adult youíre presented with two choices that you may not like and you still have to choose one. I realize some people would rather not participate at all and thatís your prerogative.

Peace Vinylman, youíre the best.

Vinylman
10-20-2017, 11:57 AM
Wow man, cool shirt. You must be the coolest guy in the poker room. So cool. And that sheepl thing, did you come up with that yourself?!?! Cause thatís pretty clever, never heard anyone say that before you.

Iím glad youíre here to show us the way. I donít know how you became so enlightened with an opinion so much more valid and informed than others, but wow, you totally did it. Youíre probably the life of every poker room youíre in, arenít you big guy?

But seriously sometimes as an adult youíre presented with two choices that you may not like and you still have to choose one. I realize some people would rather not participate at all and thatís your prerogative.

Peace Vinylman, youíre the best.

only a sheepl would believe this...

You are probably the guy who would have put up with the Monarchy in England rather than heading to America

We get it... your belly was full so why bother

valade16
10-20-2017, 12:09 PM
I agree Hillary was a terrible candidate and would make a bad President. Just curious, is anyone arguing she'd actually be worse than Trump though?

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 12:29 PM
only a sheepl would believe this...

You are probably the guy who would have put up with the Monarchy in England rather than heading to America

We get it... your belly was full so why bother

Hey man I love me a good English Monarchy. If I had to pick a favorite Iíd probably go with King Ralph, that guy could really stroke some keys!

But as I said there I understand if you or anyone else doesnít want to participate/vote in a particular election, or elections as a whole. I donít personally agree with it but we all have free will and thatís your prerogative, as I said, like it is anyone elseís.

The sheepl thingís just funny cause you clearly value your opinion over other peopleís (sheepl!) Like my perspective or anyone elseís is less valid than yours; probably from some deep seated insecurity, which we all have to varying degrees. So itís all good.

Peace Vinylman youíre the best!

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 01:50 PM
I agree Hillary was a terrible candidate and would make a bad President. Just curious, is anyone arguing she'd actually be worse than Trump though?

no, not at all. I get we are supposed to wait until a President is out of office a bit to see how their policies have impacted us, but Trump is that friend of yours that you know will make a total *** of himself everytime you go out, and you can't ****ing ditch the guy.

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 02:40 PM
Thing is, Trump isn't really doing all that terrible. It's just way too many inconsistencies flooding the news. I mean, people said it would be a mess by now.. what's going on? Other than the social issues (which has ALWAYS been a problem in America), there isn't a huge change of direction. I mean, that North Korea crap is way overblown. It's unbelievable people still don't realize that the Legislative branch still has to vote on certain issues. Trump just can't put a stamp on everything and it's enacted. He's incompetent but thank God we have checks and balances as well.

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 02:45 PM
Thing is, Trump isn't really doing all that terrible. It's just way too many inconsistencies flooding the news. I mean, people said it would be a mess by now.. what's going on? Other than the social issues (which has ALWAYS been a problem in America), there isn't a huge change of direction. I mean, that North Korea crap is way overblown. It's unbelievable people still don't realize that the Legislative branch still has to vote on certain issues. Trump just can't put a stamp on everything and it's enacted. He's incompetent but thank God we have checks and balances as well.

Serious question since you're saying he's not doing terrible but Hillary was horribly incompetent as a state senator... The reality is as laypeople we never really know the minute by minute hour by hour nuances of what these people are actually doing day in and day out, it's all speculation - so why do you perceive Trump's doing okay but Hillary was doing so bad at her job? Seriously curious about how you're gauging/assessing that.

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 03:04 PM
Serious question since you're saying he's not doing terrible but Hillary was horribly incompetent as a state senator... The reality is as laypeople we never really know the minute by minute hour by hour nuances of what these people are actually doing day in and day out, it's all speculation - so why do you perceive Trump's doing okay but Hillary was doing so bad at her job? Seriously curious about how you're gauging/assessing that.

It'll be easier if you tell me why you think Trump is doing horrible as a president. And no, him talking about the NFL isn't a reason to dislike the guy. That's just clickbait nonsense.

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 03:19 PM
It'll be easier if you tell me why you think Trump is doing horrible as a president. And no, him talking about the NFL isn't a reason to dislike the guy. That's just clickbait nonsense.

I mean okay that's a deflection... But to me the office of President is to some degree a figurehead, and a primary part of the position is as a Statesman/Diplomat/Representative of the country. So a big part of that to me is civil discourse, someone who speaks and acts in a manner that's respectful, thoughtful, measured, etc.

The person sets the tone of the nation's direction and should be an example we can look to in order to see what unifies us as a people.

Trump in my eyes is someone who has scammed the little guy (Trump University, a company that sells snake oil basically to desperate people in the same way an MLM does - no surprise he's close with the DeVos family)..

He's a race baiter, playing to the lowest common denominator to press emotional buttons in order to serve himself, which I find disgusting. He knows he has a huge audience on Twitter, and he recklessly retweets a Neo-Nazi with a racist and inaccurate info-graphic stating blacks killed 81% of white homicide victims. That's not what a measured person does, and it was gross honestly (just one of many examples of him being reckless and divisive on Twitter for his own gain).

He didn't release his tax returns, which is not only incredibly shady but also sets a dangerous precedent of opaqueness over transparency. He supposedly hasn't given up his interests in certain businesses & dealings, which presents a conflict of interest. He's also a guy who stated he can "grab women by the ***** because he's famous so they let you do anything." Sure that was a private conversation but it speaks to his character, and his character is a scumbag liar.

See old Howard Stern interviews... See the fact that he hasn't achieved anything on his own in his life other than being born into a huge amount of money and leveraging himself as a TV character over 3 decades. See the fact that the guy talks about "branding" and how important "America's Brand" is, but when we elect the first person of color to the office of President, something that I would say speaks to the American Dream and the idea that anyone can achieve anything here, upward mobility and unity etc. - he leads the charge of questioning Obama's citizenship, basically "othering" him - how is that good for America's "brand". The answer is it's not, but again it plays to a large segment of his base which is racist at it's core, again playing to the lowest common denominator to serve his goals..

He's supposed to not only be a Statesman, but our #1 Statesman.

Honestly I could go on and on but I'll stop there.

Sssmush
10-20-2017, 03:26 PM
funny thing is, I think her husband was actually a pretty good President. I just think she is epically bad, and has ridden the name forever. Seriously, she fails relentlessly at what she does. I get that she is a career politician, which for some reason makes many people think she is "qualified". But she would have been a terrible selection.

The thing is, both were terrible selections. So saying one sucks isn't supporting the other..

Yeah there is no equivalence there. I'm surprised someone as clever as you would compare them.

Hillary was a pretty good statesman (solid senator and secretary of state) dealing with an often hostile congress etc. That's just objectively true. I'm not a huge fan, but that's just ovjectively true. Most of the negative Hillary narratives were just generated by Fox News and Rush Limbaugh or Mike Savage etc over the years by just repeating made up stuff over and over and venting emotional trash on her, tying up the discontent of the lower 40% in these weird name callings etc and jjst transparently fake and even fake conservative I'd say. And then oh yeah Russian bots. I mean she used a private email server lock her up? :laugh:

Now Jared, Trump, Ivsnka, Flynn everybody using multiple private servers and emails and back channeling to russians and on and on and on so many rules and protocols trampled it's a huge joke in case youre not paying attention.

Trump is an absolute joke as president and even the vast majority of credible conservatives think that. Trump supporters are mostly uniformed and naive and have just been branded with this simplistic emotional red team - blue team identity

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 03:28 PM
funny thing is, I think her husband was actually a pretty good President. I just think she is epically bad, and has ridden the name forever. Seriously, she fails relentlessly at what she does. I get that she is a career politician, which for some reason makes many people think she is "qualified". But she would have been a terrible selection.

The thing is, both were terrible selections. So saying one sucks isn't supporting the other..

Which female politician or businesswoman do you admire in terms of you thinking they're great at what they do?

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 03:39 PM
I mean okay that's a deflection... But to me the office of President is to some degree a figurehead, and a primary part of the position is as a Statesman/Diplomat/Representative of the country. So a big part of that to me is civil discourse, someone who speaks and acts in a manner that's respectful, thoughtful, measured, etc.

The person sets the tone of the nation's direction and should be an example we can look to in order to see what unifies us as a people.

Trump in my eyes is someone who has scammed the little guy (Trump University, a company that sells snake oil basically to desperate people in the same way an MLM does - no surprise he's close with the DeVos family)..

He's a race baiter, playing to the lowest common denominator to press emotional buttons in order to serve himself, which I find disgusting. He knows he has a huge audience on Twitter, and he recklessly retweets a Neo-Nazi with a racist and inaccurate info-graphic stating blacks killed 81% of white homicide victims. That's not what a measured person does, and it was gross honestly (just one of many examples of him being reckless and divisive on Twitter for his own gain).

He didn't release his tax returns, which is not only incredibly shady but also sets a dangerous precedent of opaqueness over transparency. He supposedly hasn't given up his interests in certain businesses & dealings, which presents a conflict of interest. He's also a guy who stated he can "grab women by the ***** because he's famous so they let you do anything." Sure that was a private conversation but it speaks to his character, and his character is a scumbag liar.

See old Howard Stern interviews... See the fact that he hasn't achieved anything on his own in his life other than being born into a huge amount of money and leveraging himself as a TV character over 3 decades. See the fact that the guy talks about "branding" and how important "America's Brand" is, but when we elect the first person of color to the office of President, something that I would say speaks to the American Dream and the idea that anyone can achieve anything here, upward mobility and unity etc. - he leads the charge of questioning Obama's citizenship, basically "othering" him - how is that good for America's "brand". The answer is it's not, but again it plays to a large segment of his base which is racist at it's core, again playing to the lowest common denominator to serve his goals..

He's supposed to not only be a Statesman, but our #1 Statesman.

Honestly I could go on and on but I'll stop there.

1) Trump is also close to Hillary. There's no correlation to what he's been doing with DeVos. These guys put their friends at these high positions since forever. Obama put Hillary as Secretary of State because he wanted to prep her up for president after he was finished with his term.

2) More stories that no one really cares about. Sure, it makes for a good read but it doesn't affect American lives to the extent that policies do.. which is ultimately what matters. These race-relations have gone on for centuries. Obama did it, too. He said "that black boy could have been my child." Isn't that race-baiting? Didn't Obama put Al Sharpton at a high appeal despite Sharpton being the BIGGEST race-baiter of all?

3) Lmao, stop. See. "Didn't give up his tax returns." That's none of your business, dude. He's not required to do so by any means and whether he releases his tax returns or not doesn't help anyone. It's not dangerous at all. Why? Because if there were truly harmful circumstances involved, the IRS would have deemed it a red flag already. He sure as hell wouldn't be president if it was "dangerous." Don't you know IRS and government agencies have access to Trump's tax returns?

4) More nonsense.. grabbed her by the what-not.. well, Bill Clinton was a sick fellow who was involved in numerous sex allegations that he didn't really deny, yet, Bill was still a very good president.

5) Hate Trump or like him, he's done well for himself and his family. No one heard of the Trump name before he came into the picture so I'm not sure why you discredit the fact that he has done some great things for himself. But ultimately, none of what you said is based off reality. No one cares about his tax returns anymore. It was a click-bait storyline with zero purpose. Hillary released her tax returns. Go check her speaking fees for financial institutions.. anyone going to prosecute her what was being spoken? I mean, now you're going to blame Trump for Trump University but not Hillary Clinton for charging colleges exhorbant speaking fees while the topic of her speech was COLLEGE AFFORDABILITY? Give me a break, dude. We can all dig up dirt on someone but literally none of what you said impacts America as a whole. Like I said, race relations began heating up during Obama's reign. It was George W Bush who voted to go to war and then created all this Muslim-hate.

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 03:40 PM
^^^ btw I get that Bill Clinton was far more charismatic than Hillary and she is absolutely robotic and I would argue a subpar campaigner who made several big **** ups in this campaign. And I have issues with her policy history at several points, specifically voting for the Iraq War (in terms of a judgement call).

But I do think a base level of misogyny played into painting her as this "super witch"

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 03:43 PM
1) Trump is also close to Hillary. There's no correlation to what he's been doing with DeVos. These guys put their friends at these high positions since forever. Obama put Hillary as Secretary of State because he wanted to prep her up for president after he was finished with his term.

2) More stories that no one really cares about. Sure, it makes for a good read but it doesn't affect American lives to the extent that policies do.. which is ultimately what matters. These race-relations have gone on for centuries. Obama did it, too. He said "that black boy could have been my child." Isn't that race-baiting? Didn't Obama put Al Sharpton at a high appeal despite Sharpton being the BIGGEST race-baiter of all?

3) Lmao, stop. See. "Didn't give up his tax returns." That's none of your business, dude. He's not required to do so by any means and whether he releases his tax returns or not doesn't help anyone. It's not dangerous at all. Why? Because if there were truly harmful circumstances involved, the IRS would have deemed it a red flag already. He sure as hell wouldn't be president if it was "dangerous." Don't you know IRS and government agencies have access to Trump's tax returns?

4) More nonsense.. grabbed her by the what-not.. well, Bill Clinton was a sick fellow who was involved in numerous sex allegations that he didn't really deny, yet, Bill was still a very good president.

5) Hate Trump or like him, he's done well for himself and his family. No one heard of the Trump name before he came into the picture so I'm not sure why you discredit the fact that he has done some great things for himself. But ultimately, none of what you said is based off reality. No one cares about his tax returns anymore. It was a click-bait storyline with zero purpose. Hillary released her tax returns. Go check her speaking fees for financial institutions.. anyone going to prosecute her what was being spoken? I mean, now you're going to blame Trump for Trump University but not Hillary Clinton for charging colleges exhorbant speaking fees while the topic of her speech was COLLEGE AFFORDABILITY? Give me a break, dude. We can all dig up dirt on someone but literally none of what you said impacts America as a whole. Like I said, race relations began heating up during Obama's reign. It was George W Bush who voted to go to war and then created all this Muslim-hate.

I just don't agree with pretty much anything you're saying here, but that's okay. You have your perception and I have mine. I don't have any delusions about changing your mind or anyone else's. But we just see things very differently clearly.

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 03:47 PM
^^^ btw I get that Bill Clinton was far more charismatic than Hillary and she is absolutely robotic and I would argue a subpar campaigner who made several big **** ups in this campaign. And I have issues with her policy history at several points, specifically voting for the Iraq War (in terms of a judgement call).

But I do think a base level of misogyny played into painting her as this "super witch"

If she were a male and did all those things, do you think people would view her differently? She'd lose even worse! And before you play the misogyny card, Hillary was the one who STARTED it. She tried to cater to the female demographics and they STILL hated her. So you can't say people hate her because they are misogynist when she's the one who continues using that card so she can get some votes. She turned it into a female vs male situation by default of her strategy. And it's pathetic that females STILL hated her enough that she didn't win as many votes as she tried to.

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 03:48 PM
If she were a male and did all those things, do you think people would view her differently? She'd lose even worse! And before you play the misogyny card, Hillary was the one who STARTED it. She tried to cater to the female demographics and they STILL hated her. So you can't say people hate her because they are misogynist when she's the one who continues using that card so she can get some votes. She turned it into a female vs male situation by default of her strategy. And it's pathetic that females STILL hated her enough that she didn't win as many votes as she tried to.

You can scream about it all you want but there are 320 million people in this country. A significant chunk of them DO have a problem with the idea of women in positions of power and people of color in positions of power. I'm not saying you personally do but if you think this isn't a thing you're lying to yourself.

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 03:49 PM
Yeah there is no equivalence there. I'm surprised someone as clever as you would compare them.

Hillary was a pretty good statesman (solid senator and secretary of state) dealing with an often hostile congress etc. That's just objectively true. I'm not a huge fan, but that's just ovjectively true. Most of the negative Hillary narratives were just generated by Fox News and Rush Limbaugh or Mike Savage etc over the years by just repeating made up stuff over and over and venting emotional trash on her, tying up the discontent of the lower 40% in these weird name callings etc and jjst transparently fake and even fake conservative I'd say. And then oh yeah Russian bots. I mean she used a private email server lock her up? :laugh:

Now Jared, Trump, Ivsnka, Flynn everybody using multiple private servers and emails and back channeling to russians and on and on and on so many rules and protocols trampled it's a huge joke in case youre not paying attention.

Trump is an absolute joke as president and even the vast majority of credible conservatives think that. Trump supporters are mostly uniformed and naive and have just been branded with this simplistic emotional red team - blue team identity

man, I used to love that guy, until he basically went off his rocker around a decade ago. Then he morphed into a know it all who hates anyone under the age of 40 haha

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 03:56 PM
Which female politician or businesswoman do you admire in terms of you thinking they're great at what they do?

always loved Margaret Thatcher

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 03:57 PM
You can scream about it all you want but there are 320 million people in this country. A significant chunk of them DO have a problem with the idea of women in positions of power and people of color in positions of power. I'm not saying you personally do but if you think this isn't a thing you're lying to yourself.

sadly, you are correct

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 03:58 PM
always loved Margaret Thatcher

haha touche.

You're a good dude Hawk - always appreciate your opinions/posts on here.

tredigs
10-20-2017, 04:06 PM
On topic: No NBA players sat during the anthem. The common theme seems to be that they feel that the league has their back and that they can openly express themselves and their views in a multitude of ways, so there is no need to make a silent/ambiguous protest. That's a healthy league that Goodell and co. could learn from.

D-Leethal
10-20-2017, 04:13 PM
I'm sure there are people out there that would never vote for a woman president but I'm also sure that a lot of women latched onto Hillary this year for no other reason than that she is a woman. I think the female vote was largely willing to write off things they would never write off for a man when it came to Hillary playing the "advocate for women" role - ignoring her much publicized shaming of former sexual assault victims, taking buckets of money from countries that literally consider women property etc. I think this largely impacted the primary because those people weren't voting for Trump in the general anyway. But being a woman helped Hillary this election cycle and didn't just hurt her. Can't really say if it was a net negative or positive though.

D-Leethal
10-20-2017, 04:15 PM
On topic: No NBA players sat during the anthem. The common theme seems to be that they feel that the league has their back and that they can openly express themselves and their views in a multitude of ways, so there is no need to make a silent/ambiguous protest. That's a healthy league that Goodell and co. could learn from.

That, or they are not willing to take the NBA gravy train off its current track with these insane salaries being shelled out.

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 04:15 PM
I'm sure there are people out there that would never vote for a woman president but I'm also sure that a lot of women latched onto Hillary this year for no other reason than that she is a woman. I think the female vote was largely willing to write off things they would never write off for a man when it came to Hillary playing the "advocate for women" role - ignoring her much publicized shaming of former sexual assault victims, taking buckets of money from countries that literally consider women property etc. I think this largely impacted the primary because those people weren't voting for Trump in the general anyway. But being a woman helped Hillary this election cycle and didn't just hurt her. Can't really say if it was a net negative or positive though.

This is completely fair game and certainly hurts her character imo. But in terms of women voting for her, if you're talking about registered dems, they're pretty much voting for the dem anyway. Did she pull some significant number of Republican women away from Trump? I could be wrong but I don't think she did.

If I remember correctly, however, many male democrats, specifically white male dems, did vote for Trump over her.

Now of course there's potentially multiple reasons for that but if anything I'd say it speaks against your point.

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 04:32 PM
I'm sure there are people out there that would never vote for a woman president but I'm also sure that a lot of women latched onto Hillary this year for no other reason than that she is a woman. I think the female vote was largely willing to write off things they would never write off for a man when it came to Hillary playing the "advocate for women" role - ignoring her much publicized shaming of former sexual assault victims, taking buckets of money from countries that literally consider women property etc. I think this largely impacted the primary because those people weren't voting for Trump in the general anyway. But being a woman helped Hillary this election cycle and didn't just hurt her. Can't really say if it was a net negative or positive though.

while I agree to an extent, that is the same deal people used for blacks voting for Obama.

Women tend to be much more Democratic voting anyways, so I don't know if Hillary benefited much more than any other Dem would have.

They underestimated the quiet portion of the country that didn't get polled, and underestimated how many Bernie fans didn't show up to vote. It also represented a very big slap in the face of how arrogant the Dem party was in that election specifically. Everyone except for Donald Duck was shocked on election night..

To your point about her shaming women who were sexual assault victims, and taking campaign contributions and money from very backwards leaning countries and contributors when it comes to womens rights. Yes, it hurt her.

Hawkeye15
10-20-2017, 04:35 PM
On topic: No NBA players sat during the anthem. The common theme seems to be that they feel that the league has their back and that they can openly express themselves and their views in a multitude of ways, so there is no need to make a silent/ambiguous protest. That's a healthy league that Goodell and co. could learn from.

the NFL has miles to go before catching the NBA when it comes to keeping in tune with social matters and it's customer base.

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 05:36 PM
This is completely fair game and certainly hurts her character imo. But in terms of women voting for her, if you're talking about registered dems, they're pretty much voting for the dem anyway. Did she pull some significant number of Republican women away from Trump? I could be wrong but I don't think she did.

If I remember correctly, however, many male democrats, specifically white male dems, did vote for Trump over her.

Now of course there's potentially multiple reasons for that but if anything I'd say it speaks against your point.

I think a more plausible scenario is that people just felt betrayed by politicians in general. They saw that Hillary won the Democratic nominee through what was clearly unfair advantages vs Bernie. Case in point, her as a person while being in office for this long just disgusted many individuals. If Trump wasn't a businessman and not part of the political spectrum, there is zero chance he wins. He's damn great at marketing himself and sadly, it worked.

FlashBolt
10-20-2017, 05:38 PM
while I agree to an extent, that is the same deal people used for blacks voting for Obama.

Women tend to be much more Democratic voting anyways, so I don't know if Hillary benefited much more than any other Dem would have.

They underestimated the quiet portion of the country that didn't get polled, and underestimated how many Bernie fans didn't show up to vote. It also represented a very big slap in the face of how arrogant the Dem party was in that election specifically. Everyone except for Donald Duck was shocked on election night..

To your point about her shaming women who were sexual assault victims, and taking campaign contributions and money from very backwards leaning countries and contributors when it comes to womens rights. Yes, it hurt her.

I told my friend Donald jokingly that Trump was going to win because you don't climb that quick in politics unless people really wanted you in there. The fact Trump was able to overcome a stacked Republican deck and beat them quite handily showed me that people really hated politicians and were willing to do anything to get them out. I guess I wasn't wrong. Also, polls were practically useless. Not a single person would stand there and say "I voted for Trump" because they would get bombarded by every social group out there. Much better if you just stand there and say, "Trump is a racist" and move on with your day.

HeartOfStarks
10-20-2017, 05:39 PM
I think a more plausible scenario is that people just felt betrayed by politicians in general. They saw that Hillary won the Democratic nominee through what was clearly unfair advantages vs Bernie. Case in point, her as a person while being in office for this long just disgusted many individuals. If Trump wasn't a businessman and not part of the political spectrum, there is zero chance he wins. He's damn great at marketing himself and sadly, it worked.

I don't really disagree with any of this. I feel like Debbie Schultz and the DNC shot themselves in the foot as well.

Sssmush
10-21-2017, 06:08 AM
man, I used to love that guy, until he basically went off his rocker around a decade ago. Then he morphed into a know it all who hates anyone under the age of 40 haha

yeah I remember listening to his radio show a long time ago and finding it somewhat entertaining. Very high energy and he had some good points, although a lot of his politics were annoying to me. But he seemed to be positioning outside of parties or whatever and had a certain manic rage that was entertaining. Also his rants about the dangers of Russia, threats to Israel, radical islamism, chaotic nations with collapsing economies etc etc I thought he made good points about America needing to be strong militarily and not mince words with radical foreign ideologies that fundamentally hate America.

But yeah every time I happened to listen to him in the past 10 years or so it was highly unpleasant and unlistenable. Like a weird crazy person screaming at me, and he has this weird incoherent God-law-religion old testament thing that doesn't make any sense and just feels like he's totally ****ing trolling me and screaming off his rocker or something. I mean edgy, provocative, disagreeable, glaringly polemic, offensive... all of that can be entertaining. But something with that guy just became ugggghhhhh not fit for human ears just screeching raging a-hole incoherent weirdness

Sssmush
10-21-2017, 06:19 AM
while I agree to an extent, that is the same deal people used for blacks voting for Obama.

Women tend to be much more Democratic voting anyways, so I don't know if Hillary benefited much more than any other Dem would have.

They underestimated the quiet portion of the country that didn't get polled, and underestimated how many Bernie fans didn't show up to vote. It also represented a very big slap in the face of how arrogant the Dem party was in that election specifically. Everyone except for Donald Duck was shocked on election night..

To your point about her shaming women who were sexual assault victims, and taking campaign contributions and money from very backwards leaning countries and contributors when it comes to womens rights. Yes, it hurt her.

Look... the Democrats made huge mistakes strategically in that election. Actually my wife's cousins husband did some work as a political strategist for some well known politicians and this summer we had a chance to talk nuts and bolts on what happened in that election, and I found that we agreed on a lot of stuff in terms of political strategy. I am not going into details here, but I know for a fact I could've won that election for Hillary, even though yeah hindsight is 20/20.

For the record though I consider myself to be classically liberal for the most part, although not completely neoliberal by any means as I do definitely see the necessity of socialist institutions and interventions in society. In terms of social issues I am highly libertarian, and that is one of the things that annoys the **** out of me since the 90's with the very unprincipled Fox News type republicans is their stupid mixing up of religion with patriotism with head in the sand corruption etc. One nice thing about this Trump clown show is watching Scarborough, David Frum, George Will as well as many other very solid real Republicans call total bull **** on a lot of the lame-o narratives being crafted for the 40 percenters. I really enjoying Louise Mensch and others too with strong national security backgrounds just trashing the corrupt and clueless horse **** of the current administration as well.

But yeah Trump is an unmitigated disaster as a president. It is obvious he is doing huge damage to the Republican party longterm, and more importantly eroding the bedrock of national spirit and trust in the political system in Southern and Rural areas (although they are not aware of it themselves yet). And this at a time when structural economic and environmental factors create risks of huge upheaval and instability. Trump needs to **** off asap for the good of the country, even though Pence is a total ****ing fembot

Sssmush
10-21-2017, 06:24 AM
I don't really disagree with any of this. I feel like Debbie Schultz and the DNC shot themselves in the foot as well.

yeah they didn't seem to realize they were in a tough dogfight of an election and what population groups they really needed in order to win. And they seemed to be going for a lot of in-your-face style points of "our way is better than yours" that came across as perversely self-defeating in some contexts

D-Leethal
10-21-2017, 08:47 AM
This is completely fair game and certainly hurts her character imo. But in terms of women voting for her, if you're talking about registered dems, they're pretty much voting for the dem anyway. Did she pull some significant number of Republican women away from Trump? I could be wrong but I don't think she did.

If I remember correctly, however, many male democrats, specifically white male dems, did vote for Trump over her.

Now of course there's potentially multiple reasons for that but if anything I'd say it speaks against your point.

I mentioned that I think it helped her win the primary because those women weren't voting for Trump anyway. If it was a man going up against Bernie that had a similar history to Hillary when it came to the public shaming he would have gotten steamrolled with the women vote and trounced in the primary. They overlooked it because Hillary was a woman.

Did Trump really win male dems? I don't know about you, but I don't know any misogynist lefties. I don't know many misogynist people in general but I live in a very liberal state. I think Trump flipped the white working class Dems that voted for Obama with his jobs and immigration message. You probably have a better case saying those guys were racist (anti-Immigrant) than misogynist if you wanted to make an argument like that. I'd probably say they simply felt left out of the Obama presidency and saw their culture changing far too rapidly for them to accept.

flea
10-21-2017, 11:12 AM
I mentioned that I think it helped her win the primary because those women weren't voting for Trump anyway.

White women went for Trump.

RE thread: I agree with Flash. Trump was the "screw them all" vote. It's been many years coming, and America is a sort of unique nation in that we hate all our leaders and politicians. Even though the media (who obviously don't represent the public) like to pretend Obama is beloved even he is mostly disliked. It befuddles both people in the DC echo chamber as well as people abroad, who generally have warmer feelings about their leaders.

HeartOfStarks
10-21-2017, 11:48 AM
Just to make one more point about the original focus of the thread - if you think about Russia (and a slew of other countries like North Korea, even Turkey now, which was a democratic state in the Middle East now moving towards authoritarianism... etc.), protesting the leader/government can get you imprisoned if not killed. One of the many things that makes the US a good place to be is the ability to protest/have freedom of expression.

Obviously that goes for everyone, and itís fine to disagree with something/stop purchasing the product in your own protest, but to get upset at the idea that other citizens are protesting isnít a great look IMO. I donít think anyone here would want to live in a place where they didnít have that right.

FlashBolt
10-21-2017, 01:01 PM
Just to make one more point about the original focus of the thread - if you think about Russia (and a slew of other countries like North Korea, even Turkey now, which was a democratic state in the Middle East now moving towards authoritarianism... etc.), protesting the leader/government can get you imprisoned if not killed. One of the many things that makes the US a good place to be is the ability to protest/have freedom of expression.

Obviously that goes for everyone, and itís fine to disagree with something/stop purchasing the product in your own protest, but to get upset at the idea that other citizens are protesting isnít a great look IMO. I donít think anyone here would want to live in a place where they didnít have that right.

Republicans would be the first to agree with you on that end, though. They're the ones who HATE government intervention and love their guns. I mean, did people forget guns is what helped America break away from British-ruling?

Sssmush
10-21-2017, 03:54 PM
Just to make one more point about the original focus of the thread - if you think about Russia (and a slew of other countries like North Korea, even Turkey now, which was a democratic state in the Middle East now moving towards authoritarianism... etc.), protesting the leader/government can get you imprisoned if not killed. One of the many things that makes the US a good place to be is the ability to protest/have freedom of expression.

Obviously that goes for everyone, and itís fine to disagree with something/stop purchasing the product in your own protest, but to get upset at the idea that other citizens are protesting isnít a great look IMO. I donít think anyone here would want to live in a place where they didnít have that right.

Yes that is the point that fake "conservatives" frantically making this an issue with the usual obtuse sanctimony dont get, making them look like such idiots.

I mean leave aside that the kneeling is almost weirdly respective of the flag, a kind of Tebow protest suggested to Kawpernick by a Navy seal.

But if everyone HAD to stand for the anthem by law or whatever, then standing for the anthem has no meaning. It is just a gesture of submission to authority and the law or rule proves and enforces that. Without a choice it's meaningless. Without freedom the anthem goes from an inspiring moment celebrating freedom to something oppressive and fake. It is similar to something I've noticed in religious people who argue for enforced religious rules - they just dont understand this.

It makes me wonder if all those southern people so solemnly saluting with ostentatious pride draped in the flag are just terrified to NOT be seen as super patriotic ( yeah and then of course they go fly the confederate flag too so wtf ). Meanwhile the higher ups are secretly worried of what might happen if all the people down there who stay in their lanes with religion and patriotism start doing something different or thinking for themselves. So yeah there is pkenty of hypocrisy to go around with Will Cain's argument. I kind of wish the pro-protest commentators didnt frame it in terms of race because race really isnt the point and that racial polarizing theme gets used by Trump to highjack the issue amongst the 40% ers