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View Full Version : NBA No MVP All-Time Redraft Second Round. Team Redrum v. Azakaban Dementors



valade16
09-28-2017, 06:24 PM
Members of the PSD Community came together and participated in an All-Time NBA Redraft. They drafted, traded and signed all time players to create the best team possible. This is the 1st Round of the playoffs.

Special stipulations for this game included: No NBA or ABA MVP winners eligible. Each team had to start (and play 24 minutes) 2 players who did not play a single game after 1990. Additionally, each player is judged on the a single season/the best season of their career, as selected by the GM.

Please look at the teams and vote for which team you think would win in a 7 game series.

Team Redrum has home court advantage for the series:

Team Redrum:

PG: Alvin Robertson
SG: Reggie Miller
SF: Rudy Tomjanovich
PF: Bobby Jones
C: Patrick Ewing

B: Kyle Lowry
B: Kevin Johnson
B: Jimmy Butler
B: Detlef Schrempf
B: Al Horford

vs.

Azkaban Dementors:

G: Mark Price (36) - Kirk Hinrich (6) - Brandon Roy (6)
G: Scottie Pippen (33) - Brandon Roy (12) - Dan Majerle (3)
F: Grant Hill (28) - Dan Majerle (15) - Scottie Pippen (5)
F: Dan Roundfield (24) - Carlos Boozer (18) - Grant Hill (6)
C: Walt Bellamy (30) - Vlade Divac (18)

Redrum187
09-28-2017, 07:32 PM
Azkaban lacks a true alpha scorer. Whichever player gets hot will have DPOY Alvin Robertson, Bobby Jones, and Jimmy Butler locked on them. Not to mention, Ewing will be protecting the rim seeing as most of Azkaban's players are slashers/non spacers. Team Redrum has the 2 best scoring options in the series with versatile forwards who play defense and can switch when needed. When it comes to depth, Team Redrum's bench is arguably on par with some of Azkaban's starters. In one year prime: Lowry > Price/Hinrich, Butler > Roy/Majerle, Detlef => Roundfield/Boozer.

I'll do a more in depth write up when I get more time.

Shammyguy3
09-28-2017, 08:41 PM
Let me first drop this here:


"The Ewing Theory"

http://proxy.espn.com/espn/page2/story?id=1193711

Shammyguy3
09-28-2017, 09:20 PM
First thing is first, congrats to Redrum on making a good team.

But here is why they lose this matchup:
(1) Reason #1 why Azkaban wins this matchup
Patrick Ewing as a number 1 option: = gross

This is NOT a good thing. Why you ask? Surely, Patrick Ewing should (based on legend) be a formidable offensive force. Right? Meh, not really.

Patrick Ewing has never been a very impressive playoff performer. And this here, is the playoffs. And he's going up against a guy in Walt Bellamy, a legit 7 footer from the 60s/70s that would be the greatest big of his generation if not for three top-10 players ever in Russell, Wilt, and Kareem.

Every time Patrick Ewing has faced a legit 7 footer, his game has taken a nose dive. Sure, he's great in the regular season (his prime shows he can average nearly 29ppg a game on 55% field goal rate. But when it comes to crunch time against formidable bigs, he's a disappointment.

Do YOU want a disappointment as your #1 option? Give me non-traditional alpha male offensive players that live up to the hype without turning the ball over and killing your team's offensive efficiency.

Patrick Ewing's lone appearance in the finals against Hakeem:
44mpg
18.9ppg
36.3 field goal %
1.7 assists
3.1 turnovers


Patrick Ewing versus David Robinson (19 games)
35.1mpg
19.8ppg
43.4 field goal %
2.2 assists
3.2 turnovers

Patrick Ewing versus Alonzo Mourning in the playoffs (23 games)
37.6mpg
19.4ppg
46.5 field goal %
1.2 assists
1.9 turnovers

Patrick Ewing versus Shaq (26 games)
35.4mpg
21.4ppg
44.4 field goal %
1.8 assists
2.8 turnovers




But wait! Has anyone noticed that, Patrick Ewing in the playoffs for his career has a NEGATIVE Offensive Box Plus Minus (OBPM)? Even if you look at only ages 25-31, his best statistical seasons, he's still nearly negative at only 0.1 !!!!

Some "Number 1 option" right? A guy that doesn't show up in the playoffs, has a SIGNIFICANT drop in field goal rate, turns the ball over far more often than he assists his desperate teammates, and may actually hurt his team.

Now, you might be saying: "But Shammy, he's not going up against those guys. He's going up against a guy named Walter White, uh I mean Walt Bellamy from the 60s when there wasn't any good centers."

But that isn't true. Walt Bellamy has played against Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, and others. And he's done very well.


Walt Bellamy through a five year stretched averaged 25.5ppg 16.0rpg 2.5apg shooting nearly 52% from the field. His best statistical season, he averaged 31.6ppg 19.0rpg 2.7apg.

The biggest competition for Walt Bellamy ever was Wilt Chamberlain, arguably the best scorer ever. They played 90 games against each other in the regular season, and 10 in the playoffs. And guess what? Wilt was Wilt, of course. But Wilt didn't embarrass him anymore than Wilt didn't embarrass Bill Russell, the best defensive player ever.

Wilt against Walt: 31.2ppg (90 total games)
Wilt against Russell: 29.9ppg (94 total games)


So, if Walt Bellamy can play Wilt Chamberlain as well as Bill Russell, then why in the world can't he play against an under-achieving Patrick Ewing that hates playing players his own size?


Bellamy's five year prime playoff ts% is 55.7%
Ewing's five year prime playoff ts% is 51.9%

Now now, I know this is a ONE YEAR PRIME game, but this is a terrible trend to have as a team's number one option.

Verdict: Give me Walt Bellamy over Patrick Ewing.



Reason number 2 coming up late tonight

Redrum187
09-28-2017, 09:40 PM
Let me first drop this here:


"The Ewing Theory"

http://proxy.espn.com/espn/page2/story?id=1193711

It uses his college days and 99' season to support the 'Ewing Theory'... The dude was 36 years old that season. That's even giving the theory the benefit of the doubt that it's true (which it's not), this was not prime Ewing. It's not Ewing's fault he didn't have the personnel to compete with the Bulls. In fact, before Dirk won the ship in 11', there wouldn't be many other superstars you could say that carried their team to the finals with no other star support. Ewing is not only a better number 1 star than anyone on Azkaban, but he is way mor efficient as well. With the offensive firepower of Miller, Butler, Lowry, Detleft, etc... I wouldn't be surprised to see Ewing score slightly fewer points but on even higher efficiency.

This theory is garbage and everyone knows it. :P

Redrum187
09-28-2017, 09:47 PM
He list the all time great Bigs who were MVP and NOT in this game, but it's pointless. Ewing overachieved considering his supporting cast against superstars who were better. Bellamy is not David Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem, etc...

Furthermore, Team Redrum isn't just made up of one superstar... It has a great #1 and #2 scoring punch that beats Azkabans. It has 2 of the best defenders in NBA history in Alvin Robertson and Bobby Jones. One of the most clutch and efficient shooters/scorers in Miller. A super 6th man in Jimmy Butler who is able to lock down opponents, shoot the 3, facilitate, slash, etc... They don't have enough offense to compete against Team Redrum.

Ebbs
09-29-2017, 02:01 PM
Saying Pippen isn't an alpha when the Bulls barely missed a step post-Jordan feels wack lol.

Also, Grant Hill in a one year game is definitely an alpha.

This is a coin toss for me, I'm leaning Shammy but I'll wait on some more back n forth.

KnicksorBust
09-29-2017, 02:30 PM
First thing is first, congrats to Redrum on making a good team.

But here is why they lose this matchup:
(1) Reason #1 why Azkaban wins this matchup
Patrick Ewing as a number 1 option: = gross
t

Starks as a number 2 option = gross

KnicksorBust
09-29-2017, 02:32 PM
It is funny Miller is probably the worst person for Pippen to guard to maximize his skills. Its just running around through screens. Pippen is a GOAT candidate at iso and help defense. Ewing and Miller makes me cringe but I like that duo here.

I take RR.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 03:45 PM
It's funny that Pippen guarding Milller wouldn't be maximizing his skills. Because Scottie Pippen has done a GREAT job guarding Miller in their careers.

Reggie Miller, a career 40% shooter from deep, shoots only 34.4% from deep against Scottie Pippen in their careers. In those match-ups, Pippen actually shoots better from deep at 36%.

So, Offensive Option #1 is an under-achieving inefficient Patrick Ewing going up against someone in Walt Bellamy who held his own against Wilt Chamberlain (a far superior player than Patrick Ewing), and a #2 offensive option being guarded by the best perimeter defender of all time and proving he has less success against.


I'm sorry, but how in the world can that offense be successful if their top 2 options aren't going to be successful against my team?




Further more - Scottie Pippen is a better player than Patrick Ewing. Grant Hill is a better player than Reggie Miller. And Mark Price is better than Alvin Robertson. And Dan Roundfield is no worse than Bobby Jones defensively. And that leaves Walt Bellamy, who is better than any #3 option the opposing team has.



Mark Price versus Steve Nash per36 minutes

Price over a 3 year span posted 20.5/9.0 while shooting 48.3% from the field, 40.1% from deep taking 4 a game, had a 120 ORtg, a 60.1ts%, a 39.4ast% and 14.3tov%, a 3.17 ast/tov ratio, and a 22.5 PER.

Nash over a 3 year span posted 18.2/11.5 while shooting 51.6% from the field, 44.3% from deep taking 4 a game, had a 123 ORtg, a 63.1ts%, a 47.8ast%, and a 20.1tov%, a 3.18 ast/tov ratio, and a 23.0 PER


But who did Mark Price ever play with? He was always the best player on his team, with Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance as the #2 and #3. Now Mark Price is arguably the 3rd or 4th best player on my team. So, he gets to focus on a run & gun system the way Nash was able to in Phoenix. He will push the ball in transition, and like Redrum said I have two phenomenal slashers/rim attackers in Pippen and Hill that will CRUSH Reggie Miller and Rudy Tomjanovich (a player who was only 6'8 and forced to play PF because he wasn't fast enough in transition, and in this matchup is playing SF against two of the best combinations of speed/athleticism/strength in Grant Hill & Scottie Pippen this game has ever seen) in transition.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 03:52 PM
These claims that Lowry > Price, Butler > Roy, and Detlef > either Roundfield/Boozer is ridiculous.

Lowry has never been able to run an offense the way that Price has shown he is able to. Roy dragged a depleted Blazers team to the playoffs in the tough Western Conference, Butler's Bulls missed the Eastern Conference playoffs multiple times, and Boozer's best offensive season is no worse than Detlef's is, and Roundfield is a significantly better all-around player.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 04:00 PM
Here are dozens of quotes of Redrum stating how phenomenal Dan Roundfield is. And here, he is my 5th best player (with matchup variations in bold to further my case):



Roundfield was a team-first player, willing to make the pass (about 3 ast/game) and do the blue collar dirty work

Dan Roundfield is an elite two-way player who would guard the better Forward. He was 5x All NBA Defense and would guard perimeter players as well as post players... granted, he was an even better post defender. Guarding [Bobby Jones], who is probably a 5th option would be a cakewalk for him, allowing him to use his energy for the moments he had to cover or switch on [Patrick Ewing, an under-performing center who has a history of offensive issues in the playoffs.

[So if Bobby Jones decides to guard Grant Hill, then who in the world will guard Dan Roundfield who put up 19/11 against really good PFs? Or if [Bobby Jones] guards Pippen or Hill, then who is [Reggie Miller] gonna guard?


Wes Unseld didn't get a ton of blocks, but he was nevertheless a force defensively. Dan Roundfield was probably a better rim protector/shot blocker

[Further evidence that Patrick Ewing will struggle immensely


Meh... there's a difference between "literally nobody else would start" versus "nobody should start." We all (myself included) undervalue older players, but as long as I have older players who are underrated, I'm going to do my best to point out how in spite of the people who wouldn't start them, they are better than a lot of actual starters people DO use (that are more modern).

As for Dan Roundfield, the fact most people aren't aware of the fact he was a 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 ast/2 blks and 5x All Defense PF doesn't mean nobody SHOULD start him. He's absolutely capable of starting... [And in this matchup, he's my 5th option versus Rudy Tomjanovich ----
that is a big advantage for Azkaban


Here is Redrum's old CO-GM sprouting Roundfield love, just imagine Roundfield going off in this matchup if Jones is used to guard Pippen or Hill leaving Reggie Miller guarding Mark Price and setting up our offense, or guarding Roundfield:


Roundfield becomes a dominate player in this match up because of [Reggie Miller]. He's not erased like he should be. Which would have happened if there was one real pf on the roster. Instead roundfield owns this series with rebounding.


PSK and others have tried taking a dump on Dan Roundfield. I ask, how is a 3 year prime of 19 ppg/11 rbg/3 apg/2 bpg with 5x All Defense NOT starter worthy? Is it because you aren't familiar with him or is it because those stats suck?


You're absolutely right, KoB. I appreciate your objectivity and honesty answering the question too.

That's my goal anyways. I am trying not to sound hyperbolic when talking about Dan Roundfield but one of the many reasons I love doing ATRD is because I get to learn about new players when I research players to draft/buy.

I think wing players would have more of a transition to modern day ball than post players. However, Roundfield played in the late 70's all the way through the mid-to-late 80's. Furthermore, his game would transition perfectly to today's game because he was strong and quick enough to guard SF/PF/C (depending on the center).


I just see people in chatzy say things like "Yeah older guys are underrated, it shouldn't be this way...." then come in here with "Dan Roundfield might be the worst starter." *****, Roundfield is better than Charles Oakley... offensively it's not even close and defensively more sites list Roundfield as better there too. lol

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/135029-best-defensive-forwards-of-all-time



You don't have to agree with the list but he is at least in consideration of one of the greatest defensive Forwards of all time... just don't try to take a dump on Dan Roundfield when in reality you're just ignorant of who he is.


Now then, I don't think Dan Roundfield = Duncan. Duncan is the greatest PF of all time, but peak Roundfield was a poor man's Duncan from what I've read/seen. It's not a bad thing to be a poor man's Tim Duncan... They both had post games, both could shoot midrange, both were amazing lock down defenders (Duncan could guard centers better, but Roundfield was quick enough to guard small forwards), both were good passers, both were unselfish team-first players. Duncan just did those things even better than Dan... well, he did them better than any other PF too, so nothing against Dan.


My personal comparison would be Elton Brand. Per 36 minutes in their 3 year prime, Brand and Roundfield are very close with similar offense. Brand scores 1.3 points more per 36 minutes, Roundfield gets 2 more rebounds though, virtually identical assists. Both could shoot midrange and had good post moves. Where Roundfield separates himself from Brand is on the defensive end. While Brand was a good defender, he was not nearly as good as Roundfield was on that end of the floor.

Should we take a dump on Elton Brand now? I don't think so... I think Brand was a pretty good PF.


His 3 year peak is in the early to mid 80s though. Granted he also played in the late 70's, he didn't start racking up All D teams until the 80's. I would say his peak is about 3 or 4 years before Magic's 3 year peak. I don't fault anyone for not knowing who Dan Roundfield is, I just want to do what we all talked about in chatzy and kill the "old timer" negative bias... especially since Roundfield isn't even Joe Fulks old. :P

But as Valade DIDN'T point out, it's far more than just 19/11, for a big he got about 3 assists/game, 2 blocks, and a steal. The guys he listed were either 1 dimensional or didn't even come close to Roundfield's raw stats. I don't care if a player's name was Gaylord Focker, if he averaged 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 aspg/2 bpg/1 spg and was All D 5x times (All D 1st team 3x during his 3 year peak) then why wouldn't anyone buy Gaylord Focker as a legit starter?


More love from an objective poster for Dan Roundfield on his defense:


I think the defense helps differentiate him from the Rulands/Cliffy/BobLove group. Just look at the 82-83 all nba defensive 1st team:

Dennis Johnson / Cheeks
Sidney Moncrief
Bobby Jones
Dan Roundfield
Moses Malone

Thats a legit defensive team and I know squid/dj/moses get credit.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 04:06 PM
Just wait for more Redrum posts regarding Dan Roundfield's tremendous defense and all-around game.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 04:20 PM
Defensive Strategy:

Fortunately for Team RR, they have the perfect PF to guard Sheed in the 5x All Defense team, 5th place finisher in MVP votes, the 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 apg/1 spg/1 bpg, the Duncan-lite player we now know as Dan “freaking” Roundfield. [B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Larry Bird has accredited 2 people for giving him the most fits… Michael Cooper (in spite of the size difference) and Dan “freaking” Roundfield. Due to Roundfields athletic ability and strength, he was quick enough to guard Bird on the perimeter and in the post. Now, as much as I like Sheed, he is NO Larry Bird! If Roundfield gave Bird fits, he will be a nightmare for Baltimores 3rd or 4th scoring option in Rasheed Wallace. Guarding a stretch 4 is nothing new to Duncan-lite.


Roundfield had a good midrange shot as well as post game (hence, Duncan-lite). He will pull [Bobby Jones if Red goes that way away from the rim to allow the slashers/penetrators [Pippen/Hill]more room to attack the rim, putting pressure on [Patrick Ewing who already has a difficult time carrying an offensive load, but now has to worry about these fellas too]. In their respective peaks, Dan “freaking” Roundfield scored the exact same points per game as Sheed on fewer shot attempts and on fewer minutes. [Nobody will] get to relax against Dan “freaking” Roundfield. What makes Roundfield even more dangerous offensive is his willingness to pass just like all the other starters on Azkaban.


Here is Redrum stating how bad Alvin Robertson was at guarding bigger wing defenders in RED. Now, how will he do against Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill? And more Dan Roundfield love beneath it and how he faired against Kareem (who is wayyyy better than Ewing)



In 30 head-to-head games, Michael Jordan averaged 34.7 points, 5.1 assist, 6.4 rebounds, 2.8 steals, .9 blocks, on .608 TS% against Team Jon’s Alvin Robertson. Alvin was a great defender, but at 6’3, proved he could do absolutely NOTHING to hender Jordan in their NBA careers.

Defense:
RRoundfield guarded the opposing teams best Forward or Center, and in 17 games, limited Kareem to only 23.4 points per game, which is far below his average.


Other users on-sight having a difficult time with Alvin Robertson starting on a team that had a far superior #1 and a just as capable #2 (Kareem and Peja respectively)





I can't believe these 2 teams made it so far. Both so flawed. I never liked Jon's team because I think their scoring would be awful. KAJ and Peja is basically the #2 in an ATRD? Oakley AND Robertson starting? I'll take the PSD wet dream team, and predict they lose in the finals to whoever wins the other matchup.


Alvin Robertson and Oakley are essentially non-scorers on top of that. Terrible efficiency and low volume. The only time Alvin scored more than 17.7 points a game was when his team went 31-51. His second highest scoring season was 17.7 and he won 28 games. His third best year offensively 17.3, they won 21 games. That's where his offense gets you. Every shot those two take is a win for the defense.

So with this above ^ how will a Reggie Miller who plays worse against Pippen and a Ewing who will be guarded heavily all the time by Bellamy & Roundfield respectively fair when essentially a mediocre 3rd option is left to carry the scoring load?


It's more so underestimating the power of Dan "freaking" Roundfield and his 5x All Defense teams.

dhopisthename
09-29-2017, 04:22 PM
lol dan roundfield playing against redrum is so funny.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 04:31 PM
If Dan Roundfield was able to guard and give fits to the 2nd best SF of all time,
then there is no way in hell he won't be able to cover Bobby Jones,
Rudy whoever at SF, and still help Bellamy guard the underwhelming Patrick Ewing. Here, we also see Redrum making a fantastic case for Roundfield being better than Elvin Hayes on offense, and a lot of people view him as a 2nd or 3rd option in all-time games. But guess what, Roundfield is my 5th:



I will concede that Elvin Hayes was a good defender. He was 2x All Defense… pretty good right? Well, we don’t have to speculate how well Hayes would be guarding Roundfield because we can, once again, look at their head-to-head numbers.
http://i.imgur.com/1kBcDVI.png
They didn’t include FGA, so we can’t see that Roundfield scored 16.2 points more efficiently than Elvin’s did his 18.8 points. This is my #3 or #4 scoring option keeping up with Team Monstars’ #2 scoring option. Dan “freaking” Roundfield was a more efficient scorer, a better and willing passer, and a team-first mentality. He isn’t Duncan-lite for nothing.

Larry Bird himself accredited Michael Cooper and Dan Roundfield for giving him fits.

[/B]There will be spots when Dan “freaking” Roundfield covers Bird and give him fits.



Hayes was a 2x All Defense player who only scores 2.6 points more (probably on worse efficiency though) Roundfield who isn’t Team RR’s #1 or #2 option. Roundfield’s 5x All Defense is just better.

More respect to Dan Roundfield as a well above average starter, and pheneomenal all-around player. And in RED Redrum states that Dan Roundfield was what saved a previous championship team. You wanna call Roundfield an X-factor? He's perhaps just as important of an X-factor as other all-time glue guys like Rasheed Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Manu Ginobili, and so forth


Dan Roundfield holding his own against Hayes irl with 5x All Defense on better efficiency isn't a starter, but Elvin Hayes averaging .460 TS%, 25.7 shots to get 28 points and literally said he isn't passing the ball (Bird is his #2 scorer) IS a starter?



I'm just curious if I had any sort of positive impact on Dan moving forward in the ATRD. No way is Elvin Hayes significantly better than him (if at all even). Since they started doing OBPM, Hayes only had 4 seasons where he didn't have a negative OBPM... not #2 scoring material whatsoever. Dan sort of saved me in all seriousness.


Here is KoB giving more love to Roundfield's all-around play:


Wouldn't surprise me. That is an accomplishment in and of itself! But his combination of defense and scoring always should play well. Either way it will be pure entertainment to see how he is viewed in the next all-time game.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 04:38 PM
So, the following is true:

1) Scottie Pippen > Patrick Ewing as an overall player, as a number #1 option with the Bulls not skipping a beat after Jordan retired, as an offensive presence (with Ewing only having a couple of good post-seasons with a non-negative OBPM), and the way he fits my offense

2) Grant Hill > Reggie Miller as an overall player, someone who had great success as a #1 option before he was hurt. Hill's ability to play off the ball and lead the fast-break as evidence by his assist rate and assist numbers means he will fit in perfectly next to Pippen and Mark Price.

1997 Grant Hill: 21.4ppg - 9.0rpg - 7.3apg - 1.8spg - 0.6bpg - 114 ORtg - 7.9 VORP (1st in '97) - 8.0 BPM (2nd in '97) - 25.5 PER (4th in '97) - 55.6ts% - 36.0ast% - 28.31usg% - 0.223 WS/48 (5th in '97)

3) Mark Price finally has players better than him. He will dominate the ball in the half-court for our offense, but more importantly he will push the ball in transition and set us up in pick & rolls with Pippen/Hill. How can Redrum's team guard that pick and roll if Reggie Miller is caught in the middle of it?

It will be like Steve Nash playing with other offensive scorers: Amare stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, etc.

4) Mark Price > Alvin Robertson, and not only can Price be relied on to run an offense and space the floor, but Alvin Robertson isn't even a typical point guard. He's a SG playing out of position.

Redrum's team is relying on an underwhelming #1 option in Patrick Ewing (being guarded by a large legit 7 footer in Bellamy who held his own against Wilt, and being doubled by Dan Roundfield a 5x all-defensive player), Reggie Miller as his #2 being guarded by Scottie Pippen (the best perimeter defender ever who has shown to be effective guarding Miller before), and a SG playing out of position at PG.

How effective will his offense be without a true point guard setting up the offense with underwhelming offensive options at #1 and #2

5) Walt Bellamy & Dan Roundfield >>>> Bobby Jones & Rudy Tomjanovich

I don't think i need to say any more. Azkaban wins this in 5 games, 6 at the most.

Shammyguy3
09-29-2017, 04:43 PM
Just in case anyone is wondering what Azkaban's players are capable of (Single-season primes):



Starting Primes:
1994 Scottie Pippen: 22.0ppg - 8.7rpg - 5.6apg - 2.9spg - 0.8bpg - 109 ORtg - 7.2 VORP (3rd) - 8.3 BPM (2nd) - 23.2 PER (4th) - 54.4ts% - 24.6ast% - 27.1usg% - 0.194 WS/48 (9th)
1997 Grant Hill: 21.4ppg - 9.0rpg - 7.3apg - 1.8spg - 0.6bpg - 114 ORtg - 7.9 VORP (1st in '97) - 8.0 BPM (2nd in '97) - 25.5 PER (4th in '97) - 55.6ts% - 36.0ast% - 28.31usg% - 0.223 WS/48 (5th in '97)
1993 Mark Price: 18.2ppg - 2.7rpg - 8.0apg - 1.2spg - 3.07 AST/TOV - 41.6 3pt% - 120 ORtg - 3.1 VORP - 3.2 BPM - 22.1 PER (8th in '93) - 60.9ts% (7th in '93)- 38.1ast% (6th in '93) - 24.5usg% - 0.197 WS/48 (7th in '93)
1962 Walt Bellamy: 31.6ppg (2nd) - 19.0rpg (3rd) - 2.7apg - 26.3 PER (3rd) - 55.4ts% (1st) - 20.4usg% - 0.233 WS/48 (2nd) - 13.4 OWS - 16.3 WS (2nd)
1980 Dan Roundfield: 16.5ppg - 10.3rpg - 2.3apg - 1.2spg - 1.7bpg - 108 ORtg - 4.3 VORP (10th) - 4.6 BPM (8th) 19.7 PER - 55.1ts% - 22.8usg% - 0.169 WS/48

BenchPrimes:
2007 Kirk Hinrich: 16.6ppg - 3.4rpg - 6.3apg - 1.3spg - 2.61 AST/TOV - 41.5% from deep on 4.2 attempts a game - 113 ORtg - 17.0 PER - 55.9ts% - 0.171 WS/48 - 2.9 BPM - 3.5 VORP
2009 Brandon Roy: 22.6ppg - 4.7rpg - 5.1apg - 1.1spg - 2.63 AST/TOV - 37.7% from deep on 4.2 attempts a game - 123 ORtg (6th in '09) - 5.7 VORP (4th in '09) - 5.8 BPM (4th in '09) 24.0 PER (7th in '09 - 57.3ts% - 27.4usg% - 0.223 WS/48 (6th in '09)
1993 Dan Majerle - 16.9ppg - 4.7rpg - 3.8apg - 1.7spg - 2.33 AST/TOV - 38.1% from deep on 5.3 attempts a game - 120 ORtg - 4.9 VORP - 4.0 BPM - 57.3ts% 0.147 WS/48
2007 Carlos Boozer: 20.9ppg - 11.7rpg - 3.0apg - 114 ORtg - 24.1 PER (10th) - 58.8ts% - 0.185 WS/48 - 4.6 BPM - 4.3 VORP
1995 Vlade Divac: 16.0ppg - 10.4rpg - 4.1apg - 1.4spg - 2.2 bpg - 114 ORtg - 20.5 PER - 56.8ts% - 20.4usg% - 0.162 WS/48 - 3.6 DBPM (7th) - 5.3 BPM (10th) 5.1 VORP (10th)


Player's Prime Accolades:
1994 Scottie Pippen: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-Defense, All-Star
1997 Grant Hill: 3rd in MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, All-Star
1993 Mark Price: 8th in MVP voting , 1st team All-NBA, All-Star
1980 Dan Roundfield: 5th in MVP voting, 2nd Team All-NBA, 1st team All-Defense, All-star
1962 Walt Bellamy: All-Star, ROY
2009 Brandon Roy: 9th in MVP voting, 2nd team All-NBA, All-star
1993 Dan Majerle - 2nd team All-Defense, All-star
2007 Kirk Hinrich - 2nd team All-Defense
2007 Carlos Boozer - 9th in MVP voting, All-star,

Ebbs
09-29-2017, 05:30 PM
LMAO. Roundfield is the MVP of these games so.. Shammy it is.

Shammyguy3
10-01-2017, 06:51 PM
I guess i won that debate with Redrum

mightybosstone
10-01-2017, 08:25 PM
Totally would have voted for Redrum in this, but Shammy made some good points in this thread.

KnicksorBust
10-02-2017, 11:23 AM
If you didn't already love Shammy you should after this thread.

Shammyguy3
10-02-2017, 11:36 AM
If you didn't already love Shammy you should after this thread.

:laugh2: thanks, enough to change your vote possibly?

valade16
10-02-2017, 11:52 AM
Yeah Shammy went scorched earth lol.

Shammy wins.

Shammyguy3
10-02-2017, 12:04 PM
Typically I don't care as much anymore about debating for a victory, but with Redrum's first post about him winning this matchup and me knowing deep down that his team wouldn't stand a chance IRL, I went full throttle for the firs time in years lol

Shammyguy3
10-02-2017, 10:20 PM
Why Azkaban wins:

1) Scottie Pippen is the best player on the court. When Jordan retired, the Bulls' were still their usual selves with Pippen not only increasing his usage rate, but he also increased his efficiency across the board without losing a step defensively. Now I'm not sure who will guard him. Ebbs' team has two great defenders in Frazier and George, but Frazier is a good 4-5 inches smaller than Scottie Pippen. So I suspect Paul George to guard Scottie. But, a player in today's game in Kawhi Leonard has had success against George in head to head matchups. It's a very small sample, but over the last 2 years they've played H2H three times and Leonard has averaged 28.7ppg 7.7rpg and 2.3apg. Leonard's average output the last two years is 23.4ppg 6.3rpg 3.1apg on a 55.2efg%, so he clearly wasn't slowed down significantly.

When you factor in Pippen's ability to make a pass in the half-court, I think it's a difficult assignment.

2) Grant Hill is the #2 option offensively for Azkaban. This kind of ties in with point #1 above. So, if Paul George is guarding Scottie Pippen, then who is gonna guard Grant Hill? He himself was an alpha scorer in his prime. Heck, Ebbs agreed with that in the last round:


Saying Pippen isn't an alpha when the Bulls barely missed a step post-Jordan feels wack lol.

Also, Grant Hill in a one year game is definitely an alpha.

So, is Ebbs' team relying on Gail Goodrich to guard Grant Hill, or will they use Walt Frazier? If they use Frazier, then that's simply a larger height and weight difference he will have to make up for. If they use Gail Goodrich, then I have a heard time not seeing Hill averaging 30ppg in this series. Why? Well, Goodrich was a poor defender. Since DBPM has been calculated started in the '74 season, he never had a season close to a + DBPM. His best season was -1.9 actually.

3) Mark Price is pretty damn close to Steve Nash offensively. Mark Price versus Steve Nash per36 minutes:

Price over a 3 year span posted 20.5/9.0 while shooting 48.3% from the field, 40.1% from deep taking 4 a game, had a 120 ORtg, a 60.1ts%, a 39.4ast% and 14.3tov%, a 3.17 ast/tov ratio, and a 22.5 PER.

Nash over a 3 year span posted 18.2/11.5 while shooting 51.6% from the field, 44.3% from deep taking 4 a game, had a 123 ORtg, a 63.1ts%, a 47.8ast%, and a 20.1tov%, a 3.18 ast/tov ratio, and a 23.0 PER


So, I think Price running an offense with two juggernaut slashers that are also fantastic finishers and passers will be difficult for Ebbs' team to defend. And when you factor in Mark Price gets a huge upgrade in the #1 and #2 options offensively to set up (going from Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance to Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill), I don't see why he wouldn't perform as well as Steve Nash had his best years.

I plan to have Price/Pippen/Hill pick & rolls, to take advantage of whoever Goodrich is guarding. Now Mark Price is arguably the 3rd or 4th best player on my team. So, he gets to focus on a run & gun system the way Nash was able to in Phoenix. He will push the ball in transition as much as possible to try and mitigate Alonzo Mourning in the game.


4) Walt Bellamy held his own against all-time greats. Walt Bellamy has played against Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, and others. And he's done very well.


Walt Bellamy through a five year stretched averaged 25.5ppg 16.0rpg 2.5apg shooting nearly 52% from the field. His best statistical season, he averaged 31.6ppg 19.0rpg 2.7apg.

The biggest competition for Walt Bellamy ever was Wilt Chamberlain, arguably the best scorer ever, and Bill Russell, arguably the best defender ever. Bellamy played Wilt 90 games against each other in the regular season, and 10 in the playoffs. And guess what? Wilt was Wilt, of course. But Wilt didn't embarrass him anymore than Wilt didn't embarrass Bill Russell, the best defensive player ever. So, Mourning won't necessarily take advantage of a poor defensive center, because Bellamy isn't one of those.

Wilt against Walt: 31.2ppg (90 total games)
Wilt against Russell: 29.9ppg (94 total games)

Now Walt Bellamy played 75 games against Bill Russell. Of those 75 games, we have 35 box-scores that tallied both FGA and FGM for Bellamy against Russell. Here are those numbers:

He shot 281/579 or 48.5% while shooting 389/599 or 64.9% from the charity stripe. That's good for a true shooting percentage of 56.4%. That's pretty darn good against the greatest defensive center ever.

So, if Walt Bellamy can play against Bill Russell and post those efficiency numbers, then he should be able to play against Alonzo Mourning. And what will make it tougher on Mourning, is that he will have to worry about Hill/Pippen slashing. This is tough because of how great a passer Bellamy was. He averaged nearly 3 assists a game. So it isn't like the ball is gonna die once it enters the post.


5) Dan Roundfield is a far better player than Tom Chambers. To remind everyone about how good Dan Roundfield is:

Dan Roundfield was an elite two-way player who would guard the better Forward. He was 5x All NBA Defense and would guard perimeter players as well as post players... granted, he was an even better post defender. Guarding Tom Chambers, who is probably a 4th option in this matchup, wouldn't be challenging. This allows him to stop penetration by Frazier/Goodrich/George and even double up on Mourning if needed.

Dan Roundfield is one of the best well-rounded 4s to ever play the game. Most people aren't aware of the fact he was a 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 ast/2 blks and 5x All Defense PF. He played in the late 70's all the way through the mid-to-late 80's. Furthermore, his game would transition perfectly to today's game because he was strong and quick enough to guard SF/PF/C (depending on the center - here, Walt Bellamy will be able to handle Mourning, and the few times he needs help Roundfield can provide it).

At his peak, Dan Roundfield was a poor man's Duncan. They both had post games, both could shoot midrange, both were amazing lock down defenders (with Duncan guarding centers better than small forwards, vice versa for Dan due to his quickness). Both were good passers, both were unselfish team-first players. Roundfield is a great fit next to the rest of the unselfish players that can pass the ball on Azkaban's roster.


Here's a peak at how great his defense was, as evidenced by the company he shares on this All-Defensive 1st team from the 82-83 season:

Dennis Johnson / Cheeks
Sidney Moncrief
Bobby Jones
Dan Roundfield
Moses Malone


Larry Bird has accredited 2 people for giving him the most fits… Michael Cooper (in spite of the size difference) and Dan “freaking” Roundfield.[/COLOR][/B] Due to Roundfields athletic ability and strength, he was quick enough to guard Bird on the perimeter and in the post. Now, as much as Chambers was a good offensive player, he is NO Larry Bird! If Roundfield gave Bird fits, he will be a nightmare for Chambers.

Roundfield did not shoot 3 pointers, but he was good from beyond the elbows a la Tim Duncan, and will be able to partake in pick & pops and touch passes off of Mark Price to slashers Pippen and Hill. Chambers guarding Roundfield is a matchup we can exploit.

Let's not forget previous users on this site bringing up how Dan Roundfield was a better offensive player than Elvin Hayes: Hayes' career high ts% was 54.4% accompanied by a 19.8 PER, a 1.9 OBPM, and 6.6 OWS. Roundfield has a career high ts% of 57.5% accompanied by a 20.7 PER, a 2.5 OBPM, and 4.2 OWS.

So we need to give respect to Roundfield as an offensive player, not just a 5x All-NBA defender (3 of which were 1st team). He's perhaps just as important of an X-factor as other all-time glue guys like Rasheed Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Manu Ginobili, and so forth.

6) I have 4 two-way players, Ebbs has 3 two-way players. When it comes to these all-time games, all-around players matter. And the only defensive liability I have is Mark Price, playing perhaps the least important defensive position. Ebbs has two defensive liabilities in Gail Goodrich and Tom Chambers. I have zero offensive liabilities, and Ebbs also has zero offensive liabilities.

7) Spacing. Neither team has phenomenal spacing, but let's compare the two teams:

Azkaban's 4 best shooters
1993 Mark Price: 41.6 3pt% on 3.9 attempts a game
2009 Brandon Roy: 37.7% from deep on 4.2 attempts a game
1993 Dan Majerle: 38.1% from deep on 5.3 attempts a game
2007 Kirk Hinrich: 41.5% from deep on 4.2 attempts a game


Ebbs' 4 best shooters
2017 Paul George - 39.3% from three on 6.6 attempts a game
2007 Michael Redd - 38.2% from three on 5.8 attempts a game
1987 Kiki Vandeweghe - 48.1% from three on 1.0 attempts a game
1987 Tom Chambers - 37.2% from three on 1.8 attempts a game


I don't see a huge edge on either side here. I will say though, that Dan Roundfield's ability to guard small forwards and stretch 4s (i.e. Larry Bird) mitigates Tom Chambers as a stretch 4.

ewing
10-07-2017, 08:45 AM
Saying Pippen isn't an alpha when the Bulls barely missed a step post-Jordan feels wack lol.

Also, Grant Hill in a one year game is definitely an alpha.

This is a coin toss for me, I'm leaning Shammy but I'll wait on some more back n forth.


really I thought they lost in the 2nd round. That's a pretty big step back from 3 consecutive titles IMO. I also thought he played on a stacked Houston and a totally stacked Portland team and had disappointing results. Pip is a clear HOFer but gets way too much credit for the Bulls over achieving for a year when MJ left.

valade16
10-07-2017, 10:49 AM
really I thought they lost in the 2nd round. That's a pretty big step back from 3 consecutive titles IMO. I also thought he played on a stacked Houston and a totally stacked Portland team and had disappointing results. Pip is a clear HOFer but gets way too much credit for the Bulls over achieving for a year when MJ left.

You're correct, Chicago lost in the 2nd round. Houston was a dissapointment, but Portland?

They lost in Game 7 of the WCF to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Not sure how that's a disappointment?

ewing
10-07-2017, 02:06 PM
You're correct, Chicago lost in the 2nd round. Houston was a dissapointment, but Portland?

They lost in Game 7 of the WCF to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Not sure how that's a disappointment?

they choked