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HandsOnTheWheel
09-26-2017, 04:44 PM
1.) Lebron James
2.) Kevin Durant
3.) Kawhi Leonard
4.) Stephen Curry
5.)

Hawkeye15
09-26-2017, 04:47 PM
I will take Westbrook here. I can stomach Harden here as well, as much as I despise everything about his basketball existence..

Htownballa1622
09-26-2017, 05:01 PM
Harden is better than Westbrook.

FlashBolt
09-26-2017, 05:01 PM
Russ for me. I believe 100% that if Russ had Harden's squad, he would have had at least 3+ more assists and his efficiency would be higher. Houston would probably be a better team as well. Harden wouldn't have as good of a season playing under OKC. Who is the guy passing it to? Oladipo? I mean, Rockets had some of the best shooters while OKC had the worst.

mrblisterdundee
09-26-2017, 05:07 PM
I went with Harden over Westbrook, because I like to judge players within the context of their team. Westbrook was such a force of will on his (s)crappy little team that he deserved the MVP award. But Harden, as another lone star, put up insane stats and helped the Rockets overachieve as the league's second-best offense. If you equalize their usage rates, Harden owns the comparison statistically.
This year will be a much better comparison between the two. I expect Harden's shooting to improve more than Westbrook's. Harden will also show more on defense now that he doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting on offense. On the flip side, if Westbrook wanted to, he could probably go full-on Patrick Beverley and force his way into the DPOY conversation.

Chronz
09-26-2017, 05:26 PM
Cp3 until these 2 do more in the playoffs

FlashBolt
09-26-2017, 05:32 PM
Cp3 until these 2 do more in the playoffs

This is a joke, right?

Heediot
09-26-2017, 06:26 PM
Cp3 until these 2 do more in the playoffs

A part of me agrees, as Paul's efficiency for a perimeter guy stays close to his regular season average. LeBron's stays close and Kawhi possibly does better. Guys like Curry, KD, Harden and Westy all take a dip. The first two did better last year because the team is too stacked.

Still Paul has never been to a CF. I think he is on the decline (I might be wrong) as well, that's why I got Westy here.

JAZZNC
09-27-2017, 03:10 AM
I'll have to go Westbrook. What he did last year was incredible even if the stats were semi-inflated. Also have to give him credit for being an iron man (and Harden deserves credit for this as well even if he doesn't exert near the energy as Westbrook).

Raidaz4Life
09-27-2017, 09:27 AM
Westbrook because of defense

WaDe03
09-27-2017, 11:48 AM
Wade now that he's on the Cavs.

kdspurman
09-27-2017, 12:01 PM
Went w/WB

Vee-Rex
09-27-2017, 12:41 PM
I like Harden's efficiency (on much less shot attempts and USG%) and the fact that he was 2 rebounds short per game of averaging the arbitrary triple double himself.

valade16
09-27-2017, 12:45 PM
It is interesting to see so many people taking Westbrook. If there was an NBA draft for just next season and the top 4 players had already been picked, would everyone really be drafting Westbrook here over guys like Giannis or Anthony Davis?

Vee-Rex
09-27-2017, 01:06 PM
It is interesting to see so many people taking Westbrook. If there was an NBA draft for just next season and the top 4 players had already been picked, would everyone really be drafting Westbrook here over guys like Giannis or Anthony Davis?

Both Giannis and AD are unique in that they're younger talent. The NBA Draft scenario involves more factors (such as youth and potential) and so it may end up slightly different than a list trying to declare who the very best players are as of this moment.

valade16
09-27-2017, 01:19 PM
Both Giannis and AD are unique in that they're younger talent. The NBA Draft scenario involves more factors (such as youth and potential) and so it may end up slightly different than a list trying to declare who the very best players are as of this moment.

That's why I said for 1 year. I still think that for a single season people would be drafting other players over Westbrook here.

Vee-Rex
09-27-2017, 03:06 PM
That's why I said for 1 year. I still think that for a single season people would be drafting other players over Westbrook here.

I see.

Even then you would have to account for something like injury (which might be cause for second thought when taking someone like AD), whereas I assumed these threads were going strictly off the best player/talent.

Giannis IMO is still a tier below guys like AD and Westbrook but he has immense potential. Westbrook pretty much carried his team to the playoffs entirely on his own. Oladipo was 2nd on the team in FGAs. I think he's easily in the 5-7'ish range.

mngopher35
09-27-2017, 03:57 PM
It is interesting to see so many people taking Westbrook. If there was an NBA draft for just next season and the top 4 players had already been picked, would everyone really be drafting Westbrook here over guys like Giannis or Anthony Davis?

For just next season, yes I would take Westy (and Harden/CP3 probably too). At this point in time I don't think either of those guys are on the same level/ability to carry an offense as effectively. Gianniss is closest there but to me having elite gravity type players offensively like the 3 I mentioned is more important than having very good 2 way players.

I think there could be an argument made Gianniss is hitting that level I would just want to see it more. Right now though I think the impact a guy like Westy makes is just a little bit higher since I value offense more, we saw how bad the OKC team looked without him (especially come playoffs).

mrblisterdundee
09-27-2017, 05:13 PM
I see.

Even then you would have to account for something like injury (which might be cause for second thought when taking someone like AD), whereas I assumed these threads were going strictly off the best player/talent.

Giannis IMO is still a tier below guys like AD and Westbrook but he has immense potential. Westbrook pretty much carried his team to the playoffs entirely on his own. Oladipo was 2nd on the team in FGAs. I think he's easily in the 5-7'ish range.

Westbrook's ability to do it all puts him over guys like Davis and Giannis. They're better defensively, but I can't see either running an offense or carrying a team like Wesbrook. Davis couldn't even get his team to the playoffs with the addition Cousins, who's way more talented than anyone Westbrook has played with since Durant.
Giannis might get there some day, but the Bucks were a team based on overall ball movement. Three guys got more than four assists per game. After Westbrook, Oladipo was the biggest distributor, with 2.6 assists per game.
This year will be a much better comparison between all these players and Westbrook, who is no longer a one-man circus show.

Htownballa1622
09-27-2017, 06:28 PM
Last year, Russell had a phenomenal season. He also was said to not have enough help(even though before the season he had plenty of help). OKC has added talent this year.

Does adding PG and Melo give Russell the help he needs?

I just want to ask this now to set the record straight so the narrative doesn't change if something goes wrong.

I didn't want to make a new thread because I just wanted to gauge yalls thoughts.

mrblisterdundee
09-27-2017, 07:30 PM
Last year, Russell had a phenomenal season. He also was said to not have enough help(even though before the season he had plenty of help). OKC has added talent this year.
Does adding PG and Melo give Russell the help he needs?
I just want to ask this now to set the record straight so the narrative doesn't change if something goes wrong.
I didn't want to make a new thread because I just wanted to gauge yalls thoughts.

It gives him enough help to get the fourth seed, beat Minnesota or Denver in the first round and get demolished by Golden State in the second.

FlashBolt
09-27-2017, 08:11 PM
Last year, Russell had a phenomenal season. He also was said to not have enough help(even though before the season he had plenty of help). OKC has added talent this year.

Does adding PG and Melo give Russell the help he needs?

I just want to ask this now to set the record straight so the narrative doesn't change if something goes wrong.

I didn't want to make a new thread because I just wanted to gauge yalls thoughts.

Who the hell said before the season that he had plenty of help? No one expected us to legitimately be a good team but we were because Russell was pulling off an historic season. Literally, you won't find a single person who thought he had help. We traded for Oladipo before KD wanted out and that was our biggest move of the offseason.

Does adding PG and Melo help? Of course it does. This is more help than Russ had last year and that is not even a debate. We've boosted up defensively and Russ no longer has to worry about doing everything for the team. I think people are underrating the Rockets right now but to me, we are neck-and-neck with you guys. Your advantage comes from your better overall shooting and system but we have the better defenders.

FlashBolt
09-27-2017, 08:12 PM
It is interesting to see so many people taking Westbrook. If there was an NBA draft for just next season and the top 4 players had already been picked, would everyone really be drafting Westbrook here over guys like Giannis or Anthony Davis?

If you're talking about future years as well, LeBron wouldn't be #1.

tredigs
09-27-2017, 11:24 PM
Who the hell said before the season that he had plenty of help? No one expected us to legitimately be a good team but we were because Russell was pulling off an historic season. Literally, you won't find a single person who thought he had help. We traded for Oladipo before KD wanted out and that was our biggest move of the offseason.

Does adding PG and Melo help? Of course it does. This is more help than Russ had last year and that is not even a debate. We've boosted up defensively and Russ no longer has to worry about doing everything for the team. I think people are underrating the Rockets right now but to me, we are neck-and-neck with you guys. Your advantage comes from your better overall shooting and system but we have the better defenders.
In their last preseason power ranking by ESPN OKC ranked 7th. Houston 14th. SI had the Rockets 15th just before the season tipped off, OKC 9th. Numberfire (a statistical model based system) had OKC at 8th, the Rockets at 17th. The Westgate preseason win-total for 16/17 opened with the Rockets at 41.5 wins, the Thunder at 45.5 wins.

Granted, Westbrook was expected to put up ridiculously high usage (he smashed the all time record) along with subsequently ridiculously high point/rebound/assist totals (we know how that went) and was the preseason favorite for MVP as a result (due to those projected #'s plus Curry/KD/Lebron not expected to be in the running for #1). Thinking OKC was not expected to be a better team than Houston before the season began is revisionist history. Long story short, OKC was expected to be in that 47 win range (where they were) and a first round knockout (which they were). Houston is the team that heavily outperformed expectations.

My choice is Harden here. Just the smarter, better player IMO.

LA_Raiders
09-27-2017, 11:49 PM
Westbrick no question. KD should be #1 he man handled your PSD #1 in the finals.

ewing
09-28-2017, 06:03 AM
It is interesting to see so many people taking Westbrook. If there was an NBA draft for just next season and the top 4 players had already been picked, would everyone really be drafting Westbrook here over guys like Giannis or Anthony Davis?

i would.

Htownballa1622
09-28-2017, 10:18 AM
In their last preseason power ranking by ESPN OKC ranked 7th. Houston 14th. SI had the Rockets 15th just before the season tipped off, OKC 9th. Numberfire (a statistical model based system) had OKC at 8th, the Rockets at 17th. The Westgate preseason win-total for 16/17 opened with the Rockets at 41.5 wins, the Thunder at 45.5 wins.

Granted, Westbrook was expected to put up ridiculously high usage (he smashed the all time record) along with subsequently ridiculously high point/rebound/assist totals (we know how that went) and was the preseason favorite for MVP as a result (due to those projected #'s plus Curry/KD/Lebron not expected to be in the running for #1). Thinking OKC was not expected to be a better team than Houston before the season began is revisionist history. Long story short, OKC was expected to be in that 47 win range (where they were) and a first round knockout (which they were). Houston is the team that heavily outperformed expectations.

My choice is Harden here. Just the smarter, better player IMO.

Thank you for providing the evidence I didn't attempt to look up.

That's what I meant about having enough help and then the narrative flipping halfway through the season.

Rivera
09-28-2017, 11:05 AM
went with RWB and I think harden wins the next round rather easily. after that, it will get interesting

valade16
09-28-2017, 12:01 PM
For just next season, yes I would take Westy (and Harden/CP3 probably too).


i would.

Well Anthony Davis went over Russell Westbrook in the last 2 NBA Re-Drafts on this site lol.

It just seems to me that in these sort of general discussions people will pick guys like Westbrook and then when picking the team they will magnify his problems (extreme usage, lack of shooting, etc.) and take a more well rounded player or a player with incredibly efficiency over him even if they aren't as impactful.

FlashBolt
09-28-2017, 12:38 PM
Thank you for providing the evidence I didn't attempt to look up.

That's what I meant about having enough help and then the narrative flipping halfway through the season.

ESPN does it for ratings. How else did they put Lonzo over Melo in their ranking? It hasn't been reputable for years. You could check the general consensus from most OKC fans and I will tell ya, most were just betting on Russ getting the MVP and triple double moreso than our chances of contending. It was a fun season because of that but I had zero expectations of making it deep.

Vee-Rex
09-28-2017, 12:38 PM
In their last preseason power ranking by ESPN OKC ranked 7th. Houston 14th. SI had the Rockets 15th just before the season tipped off, OKC 9th. Numberfire (a statistical model based system) had OKC at 8th, the Rockets at 17th. The Westgate preseason win-total for 16/17 opened with the Rockets at 41.5 wins, the Thunder at 45.5 wins.

Granted, Westbrook was expected to put up ridiculously high usage (he smashed the all time record) along with subsequently ridiculously high point/rebound/assist totals (we know how that went) and was the preseason favorite for MVP as a result (due to those projected #'s plus Curry/KD/Lebron not expected to be in the running for #1). Thinking OKC was not expected to be a better team than Houston before the season began is revisionist history. Long story short, OKC was expected to be in that 47 win range (where they were) and a first round knockout (which they were). Houston is the team that heavily outperformed expectations.

My choice is Harden here. Just the smarter, better player IMO.

Agreed. My choice is Harden as well.

And I'm still eating crow from my projections prior to last season. I had Houston missing the playoffs. I knew their offense would be potent but I thought they would have the worst defense in the league with D'Antoni and the pieces they added. They were slightly below average on defense.

Htownballa1622
09-28-2017, 01:59 PM
ESPN does it for ratings. How else did they put Lonzo over Melo in their ranking? It hasn't been reputable for years. You could check the general consensus from most OKC fans and I will tell ya, most were just betting on Russ getting the MVP and triple double moreso than our chances of contending. It was a fun season because of that but I had zero expectations of making it deep.

Ok so who has more help this year? Harden or Westbrook? And which team will be better between okc and Houston? I don't want any switching sides to fit narrative like last year and how it helped propel one person to mvp.

I just want to gauge this for what happens throughout the season.

mngopher35
09-28-2017, 02:08 PM
Well Anthony Davis went over Russell Westbrook in the last 2 NBA Re-Drafts on this site lol.

It just seems to me that in these sort of general discussions people will pick guys like Westbrook and then when picking the team they will magnify his problems (extreme usage, lack of shooting, etc.) and take a more well rounded player or a player with incredibly efficiency over him even if they aren't as impactful.

I don't remember that but part of it could easily be related to people knowing guys like Westbrook/Harden have some negativity on here. Another could just be poor choices lol.

I think when you have a team of all time guys already in place looking for the right fit makes sense if either was an all time game though. Like ya AD makes more sense as a 3rd or 4th option than Westy. If it's just todays NBA though and I am building my own team Westy makes a lot more sense to me. Yes I will need to work around his skill set to build it right but that skill set/ability is more impactful than AD's (at least at this moment in time).


EDIT: I just looked at the last auction game I played for normal redraft and Westbrook was like the 4th highest bid after Lebron/Curry/Durant and his average bid was actually 2nd overall it appears. I feel like people do value him highly in those games still even if it is more varied...

valade16
09-28-2017, 02:26 PM
I don't remember that but part of it could easily be related to people knowing guys like Westbrook/Harden have some negativity on here. Another could just be poor choices lol.

I think when you have a team of all time guys already in place looking for the right fit makes sense if either was an all time game though. Like ya AD makes more sense as a 3rd or 4th option than Westy. If it's just todays NBA though and I am building my own team Westy makes a lot more sense to me. Yes I will need to work around his skill set to build it right but that skill set/ability is more impactful than AD's (at least at this moment in time).

If AD is your 3rd or 4th option it likely doesn't matter what the fit is, because your team is freaking stacked lol

Vee-Rex
09-28-2017, 02:28 PM
If AD is your 3rd or 4th option it likely doesn't matter what the fit is, because your team is freaking stacked lol

Crazy because he'd be the 3rd option on the Warriors.

Shows how stacked that team is.

mngopher35
09-28-2017, 02:28 PM
If AD is your 3rd or 4th option it likely doesn't matter what the fit is, because your team is freaking stacked lol

haha true, even not a #1 option helps make a case for him is probably the best way to put it. If you already drafted your go to guy a 2nd option with defense like AD might make sense is the point.

I also just edited that post, I think Westy does get love in those games at times at the very least. Extremely high value in that auction game.


Edit again: Looks like in that all time game AD was with Westy/Tmac (and Harden off the bench) so he actually was the 3rd option and the team was not voted very high if I recall right (poor AI).

FlashBolt
09-28-2017, 03:08 PM
Ok so who has more help this year? Harden or Westbrook? And which team will be better between okc and Houston? I don't want any switching sides to fit narrative like last year and how it helped propel one person to mvp.

I just want to gauge this for what happens throughout the season.

What does all this have to do with LAST year? Clearly, people can see OKC has improved drastically as well as Houston. I would say we're probably slightly better but Houston is no joke as well. No one changed narratives. You just seem to think OKC had a comparable squad to that of Harden and while most people would otherwise disagree. If you need ESPN to "rank" who the top teams are, then can you really have your own insight on anything?

Vinsanity115
09-28-2017, 03:17 PM
Gotta go Westbrook here. His motor to bring it every night is beyond valuable for his team.

Here's my #1 though, and I feel confident saying this now after last year.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqHBnUpHOCU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgE-ukMOyQo

Lebron is an insanely close 2nd, no problem with ranking him 1st either, but Kawhi is on this insane tier of both offense and defense right now and always comes through ALWAYS. Durant as much as I hate him, brings a nightmare offensively.

Giannis is the new superstar this year.

mngopher35
09-28-2017, 04:08 PM
Ok so who has more help this year? Harden or Westbrook? And which team will be better between okc and Houston? I don't want any switching sides to fit narrative like last year and how it helped propel one person to mvp.

I just want to gauge this for what happens throughout the season.

They are overall pretty similar this year I would say.

As for last season part of the pre-season rankings were due to how big of a down year the rockets had before (coach turmoil/changeover) and lost Dwight. People also thought they would be bottom of the league defensively and instead they were much closer to middle of the pack. So the entire team picked it up more than expected on one end (was Dantoni COY? many had him in convo for said reason) and probably underrated them initially due to a very poor previous season.

When it comes to help actually on the court etc. last season we saw Houston play at a +3.9 difference in ortd/drtg when Harden was off the court. They were still a positive team without him. Thunder on the other hand were at a -8.5 when Westbrook was off the court and this only gets drastically worse in the short playoff run. It was pretty clear which team struggled more without their star in the game and who was needed to carry the bigger load. To me this on court ability/play is much more important than people forgetting Houston won 56 games 2 seasons before without the turmoil and were just returning to that level of play with their additions of Gordon/Anderson and Dwight not being as big of an impact.

So yes people did underrate Houston due to the turmoil and down year but the changing of narratives or whatever you want to call it was justified based on what was obvious on the court not some predictions off of the previous (down) year.

valade16
09-28-2017, 04:17 PM
Can we even use the term "help" when talking about Harden and Westbrook anymore? It's more like co-leaders between Harden/CP3 and Westy/PG.

FlashBolt
09-28-2017, 07:28 PM
Damn, I just watched a video of AD's interview. Dude looks friggin huge. Underrated as hell in terms of physique.

tredigs
09-28-2017, 07:36 PM
ESPN does it for ratings. How else did they put Lonzo over Melo in their ranking? It hasn't been reputable for years. You could check the general consensus from most OKC fans and I will tell ya, most were just betting on Russ getting the MVP and triple double moreso than our chances of contending. It was a fun season because of that but I had zero expectations of making it deep.

Why would ESPN rank OKC above Houston for ratings? Lonzo over Melo OK... but even then frankly I don't have a hard time imagining Lonzo being a higher level performer than Melo. And regardless, you're disregarding the 3 other rankings I listed including the Vegas odds. OKC was expected to be better than Houston across the board going into last season - there is no way around that.

JordansBulls
09-29-2017, 11:52 PM
How did Lebron get the top spot without the best stats, nor the best record, nor the league mvp, nor the finals mvp? Is he getting the Kobe treatment from 2006-2008?

FlashBolt
09-29-2017, 11:58 PM
How did Lebron get the top spot without the best stats, nor the best record, nor the league mvp, nor the finals mvp? Is he getting the Kobe treatment from 2006-2008?

Why do you still hate someone who's been in the league for 15 seasons? get over it.

tredigs
09-30-2017, 03:47 AM
Why do you still hate someone who's been in the league for 15 seasons? get over it.
Shhh.