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HandsOnTheWheel
09-22-2017, 04:04 PM
Take into account careers (Accolades/Rings/Awards/Accomplishments/Peak/Longevity) of each of the available players and take your pick

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.) Lebron James
4.)

dhopisthename
09-22-2017, 04:08 PM
I think its wilt here.

mightybosstone
09-22-2017, 04:21 PM
This is where things get really tough for me. You could make a really strong case for a handful of guys here. For me, it's probably between Wilt and Duncan. Although the homer in me wants to take Hakeem here, I know he's probably not top 5. I'll weigh my options before voting, but I'm probably leaning slightly toward Wilt as of right now.

kdspurman
09-22-2017, 04:31 PM
This is where things get really tough for me. You could make a really strong case for a handful of guys here. For me, it's probably between Wilt and Duncan. Although the homer in me wants to take Hakeem here, I know he's probably not top 5. I'll weigh my options before voting, but I'm probably leaning slightly toward Wilt as of right now.

Yea.. I got Wilt here, then TD.

valade16
09-22-2017, 04:34 PM
Just curious, why is everyone so enamored with Wilt? His stats? By that measure, why isn't Russell Westbrook a legitimate Top 10 candidate as he also has outstanding advanced stats? If your argument is Westbrook's stats were somewhat hollow and didn't contribute as much to winning as they indicate, that is the exact argument people said about Wilt back when he was playing.

Just bizarre we give Wilt a pass for things we hold players' feet over the fire for today.

valade16
09-22-2017, 04:36 PM
Fun fact: Wilt's TS% for seasons he averaged over 30 PPG is .529. Russell Westbrook's career TS% is .533.

dhopisthename
09-22-2017, 04:55 PM
Fun fact: Wilt's TS% for seasons he averaged over 30 PPG is .529. Russell Westbrook's career TS% is .533.

yeah, but what was the league average for those years? he lead the league in fg% four of those years and was second two of the other years so that leaves just his rookie year where I think you can give him a break. He was also top 5 in TS% 3 times.

tredigs
09-22-2017, 04:59 PM
Fun fact: Wilt's TS% for seasons he averaged over 30 PPG is .529. Russell Westbrook's career TS% is .533.

When comparing era's with different rules/styles/players, etc I think it's more effective to measure stats by their deviation (+ or -) from the mean at the time. He led the league in FG% for the majority of his career and was almost always top-10 in TS% despite the poor foul shooting. Bill Russell in the ~44% FG range was top 5 there quite a few times as well. Consequently the leading rebounder in today's time wouldn't crack the top-5 in rpg then. It's all relative. It's tough to argue between era's due to all the changes in the game (rules wise and strategy wise specifically), which is why - imo - it's much important to focus on how much a player dominated their own era, and then continue the debate from there. Russell was considered to have the most on-court impact of that era by many if not most accounts, followed by Wilt and then Oscar. Then came Kareem in his crossover era (with Wilt and Oscar), followed by Dr. J then Bird and Magic, next MJ followed by Hakeem/Barkley, etc, followed by Shaq, then Kobe/Duncan, and now Lebron followed by KD/Curry.

mightybosstone
09-22-2017, 05:01 PM
Just curious, why is everyone so enamored with Wilt? His stats? By that measure, why isn't Russell Westbrook a legitimate Top 10 candidate as he also has outstanding advanced stats? If your argument is Westbrook's stats were somewhat hollow and didn't contribute as much to winning as they indicate, that is the exact argument people said about Wilt back when he was playing.

Just bizarre we give Wilt a pass for things we hold players' feet over the fire for today.


Fun fact: Wilt's TS% for seasons he averaged over 30 PPG is .529. Russell Westbrook's career TS% is .533.

Yes, but Wilt has the Finals appearances and titles, which is why his ridiculous numbers don't feel as hollow as someone like Westbrook. Also, I don't take TS% nearly as seriously for players in the 60s. All-time greats in that era had some truly atrocious stats from an efficiency standpoint. Russell posted a 50+ TS% one time in his entire career.

But this is why these debates are so much fun—there isn't a a clear cut answer. I see Jordan, Lebron and Kareem as the clear top three in whatever order you want to put them in. But after those guys, there is no clear cut No. 4. I could feasibly see a solid case for five guys and a halfway decent argument for probably another 2-3 guys if you were so inclined to do so.

And depending on what barometers I was using to judge a player or how I felt on a random day, my 4-8 might look totally different.

mngopher35
09-22-2017, 05:52 PM
Just curious, why is everyone so enamored with Wilt? His stats? By that measure, why isn't Russell Westbrook a legitimate Top 10 candidate as he also has outstanding advanced stats? If your argument is Westbrook's stats were somewhat hollow and didn't contribute as much to winning as they indicate, that is the exact argument people said about Wilt back when he was playing.

Just bizarre we give Wilt a pass for things we hold players' feet over the fire for today.

If I like Westy more than other people then I can legit have Wilt here right? Haha. Honestly it does come down to how much he dominated on an individual level aka stats to an extent.

I will wait to vote till Im back later this weekend but Wilt/Shaq/Duncan are probably my next 3.

valade16
09-22-2017, 06:51 PM
When comparing era's with different rules/styles/players, etc I think it's more effective to measure stats by their deviation (+ or -) from the mean at the time. He led the league in FG% for the majority of his career and was almost always top-10 in TS% despite the poor foul shooting. Bill Russell in the ~44% FG range was top 5 there quite a few times as well. Consequently the leading rebounder in today's time wouldn't crack the top-5 in rpg then. It's all relative. It's tough to argue between era's due to all the changes in the game (rules wise and strategy wise specifically), which is why - imo - it's much important to focus on how much a player dominated their own era, and then continue the debate from there. Russell was considered to have the most on-court impact of that era by many if not most accounts, followed by Wilt and then Oscar. Then came Kareem in his crossover era (with Wilt and Oscar), followed by Dr. J then Bird and Magic, next MJ followed by Hakeem/Barkley, etc, followed by Shaq, then Kobe/Duncan, and now Lebron followed by KD/Curry.

That doesn't necessarily work because even by that measurement, Westbrook is historically good based on stats such as BPM and VORP.

My point is, why do we use Wilt's stats to put him Top 5 and then dismiss the arguments for other such dominant stats because of reasons that equally apply to Wilt. Westbrook grabbed a lot of uncontested rebounds because he was chasing the triple double. Many said Wilt scored a ton of points because he was more interested in padding his stats than winning.

Why do we accept Wilt's impact at face value from his stats?

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2017, 07:05 PM
It's MAGIC JOHNSON you youngsters! Lol

More-Than-Most
09-22-2017, 08:41 PM
It's MAGIC JOHNSON you youngsters! Lol

this is the excuse you are using but they are voting WILT who played before magic thus making that comment moronic.... Id probably have magic right here or next if we are being honest.

FlashBolt
09-22-2017, 09:41 PM
Just curious, why is everyone so enamored with Wilt? His stats? By that measure, why isn't Russell Westbrook a legitimate Top 10 candidate as he also has outstanding advanced stats? If your argument is Westbrook's stats were somewhat hollow and didn't contribute as much to winning as they indicate, that is the exact argument people said about Wilt back when he was playing.

Just bizarre we give Wilt a pass for things we hold players' feet over the fire for today.

The thing with Wilt is he had legitimate physical attributes that would allow him to dominate in any generation. His physical feats is right up there with everyone but behind LeBron, IMO. The advanced stats may be a bit misleading. Wilt's TS% is low due to how the game was being played back then. Everything was pretty much chuck up as many shots as you could as close to the basket as you can. Often times, they meant random shots such as guys chucking threes up in today's game. His accomplishments stretches far past stats, though. Just what he was able to do physically is just too imposing to ignore and that's where I think Wilt has a step above most guys in. Could you imagine Wilt in today's league? Dude would be a horror story. Not as inflated as the numbers back then but 30/15 would be his stature.


It's MAGIC JOHNSON you youngsters! Lol

One of my fave players but Magic would be lucky to be in anyone's top five at this point.. Duncan/Kobe/Shaq are ahead of him quite easily.

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2017, 10:42 PM
I just feel watching him change the game and put the NBA on the world map is just unmatched. MJ carried that torch in the 90's, Shaq/Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, the NBA blew up because of Magic/Bird.

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2017, 10:44 PM
this is the excuse you are using but they are voting WILT who played before magic thus making that comment moronic.... Id probably have magic right here or next if we are being honest.

Why do you even comment on my post? It's obvious you have some sort of vendetta towards me.

FlashBolt
09-22-2017, 10:55 PM
I just feel watching him change the game and put the NBA on the world map is just unmatched. MJ carried that torch in the 90's, Shaq/Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, the NBA blew up because of Magic/Bird.

Do you think LeBron didn't do the same? He has elevated NBA just as much as anyone else. What he's done for the league in general and being part of the Player's Union is largely responsible for these contracts being handed out. Magic and Bird needed each other to get the NBA on a global stage - which the league milked like a cow.

valade16
09-22-2017, 10:58 PM
The thing with Wilt is he had legitimate physical attributes that would allow him to dominate in any generation. His physical feats is right up there with everyone but behind LeBron, IMO. The advanced stats may be a bit misleading. Wilt's TS% is low due to how the game was being played back then. Everything was pretty much chuck up as many shots as you could as close to the basket as you can. Often times, they meant random shots such as guys chucking threes up in today's game. His accomplishments stretches far past stats, though. Just what he was able to do physically is just too imposing to ignore and that's where I think Wilt has a step above most guys in. Could you imagine Wilt in today's league? Dude would be a horror story. Not as inflated as the numbers back then but 30/15 would be his stature.

One of my fave players but Magic would be lucky to be in anyone's top five at this point.. Duncan/Kobe/Shaq are ahead of him quite easily.

I mean those are also arguments for Westbrook right? He would be on the shortlist (Top 10 all-time) in terms of physical freakishness. I mean, Westbrook in Wilt's league would be equally as dominating as Wilt in today's league no?

More-Than-Most
09-22-2017, 11:04 PM
Why do you even comment on my post? It's obvious you have some sort of vendetta towards me.

why do you post outlandish things?

FlashBolt
09-22-2017, 11:08 PM
I mean those are also arguments for Westbrook right? He would be on the shortlist (Top 10 all-time) in terms of physical freakishness. I mean, Westbrook in Wilt's league would be equally as dominating as Wilt in today's league no?

If Westbrook could do what he did last season for ten seasons, yes, there is a case. But can he? I doubt it. I mean, RWB wasn't even considered the best player on his own team for 8/9 seasons and he was/is never the best player and won't be for a season. Wilt was undisputedly, the best player of his generation.

valade16
09-22-2017, 11:31 PM
If Westbrook could do what he did last season for ten seasons, yes, there is a case. But can he? I doubt it. I mean, RWB wasn't even considered the best player on his own team for 8/9 seasons and he was/is never the best player and won't be for a season. Wilt was undisputedly, the best player of his generation.

Actually at the time the undisputed best player was Bill Russell. The majority of older lists had Russell clearly over Wilt, it was only until recently Wilt started being ranked ahead of Russell.

Chamberlain won MVP his rookie year and then Russell won 4/5 MVPs and Wilt didn't win his second MVP until Russell was 31 and clearly not at his peak.

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2017, 11:37 PM
Do you think LeBron didn't do the same? He has elevated NBA just as much as anyone else. What he's done for the league in general and being part of the Player's Union is largely responsible for these contracts being handed out. Magic and Bird needed each other to get the NBA on a global stage - which the league milked like a cow.

I wrote all the players in my previous post about who I believe had major influence in creating and helping the game... lol I think you took my post out of context?

FlashBolt
09-23-2017, 12:03 AM
Actually at the time the undisputed best player was Bill Russell. The majority of older lists had Russell clearly over Wilt, it was only until recently Wilt started being ranked ahead of Russell.

Chamberlain won MVP his rookie year and then Russell won 4/5 MVPs and Wilt didn't win his second MVP until Russell was 31 and clearly not at his peak.

At the time, stats was barely recorded and no one really understood the game of basketball. So their interpretation is probably way off. We have more resources to judge a player than people back then. Majority of older lists having Bill doesn't really prove anything. Their criteria is probably based on winning only - which is misleading. Wilt was clearly the superior player.

I'm not sure what we're getting at. I can tell you're a huge Bill Russell fan but he's not a better player than Wilt. There really is no argument for him. It's all hearsay with those old folks. I mean, some say Big O is the GOAT.. he's not even on most Top 10's by a long mile.

I wrote all the players in my previous post about who I believe had major influence in creating and helping the game... lol I think you took my post out of context?

You said the NBA blew up because of Magic/Bird.. whatever, you have no arguments for Magic anyways.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2017, 12:10 AM
It's Magic here, if the entire NBA universe voted it easily would be Magic Johnson.

But, I'll let you guys get back to your debate and let 15 total votes decide :laugh2:

FlashBolt
09-23-2017, 12:12 AM
It's Magic here, if the entire NBA universe voted it easily would be Magic Johnson.

But, I'll let you guys get back to your debate and let 15 total votes decide :laugh2:

You have no argument because you aren't capable of making one.. so run along now.

Lakers + Giants
09-23-2017, 02:42 AM
went with wilt because i see him as lebron before lebron, and I had lebron 3rd. IF that makes sense :laugh2:

tredigs
09-23-2017, 03:47 AM
At the time, stats was barely recorded and no one really understood the game of basketball. So their interpretation is probably way off. We have more resources to judge a player than people back then. Majority of older lists having Bill doesn't really prove anything. Their criteria is probably based on winning only - which is misleading. Wilt was clearly the superior player.

I'm not sure what we're getting at. I can tell you're a huge Bill Russell fan but he's not a better player than Wilt. There really is no argument for him. It's all hearsay with those old folks. I mean, some say Big O is the GOAT.. he's not even on most Top 10's by a long mile.


You said the NBA blew up because of Magic/Bird.. whatever, you have no arguments for Magic anyways.
You're growing more bravado despite a lack of understanding with age - touche'. You know who probably DID understand the game? The players and commentators of the time; And the man who the vast majority of professional basketball players said owned their soul and won MVP's/Ship's year after year? Russell.

Eras tend to know who their best/most-dominant players were. And that era knew it was Russell.

tredigs
09-23-2017, 03:49 AM
went with wilt because i see him as lebron before lebron, and I had lebron 3rd. IF that makes sense :laugh2:

It doesn't ; )

More-Than-Most
09-23-2017, 04:05 AM
You're growing more bravado despite a lack of understanding with age - touche'. You know who probably DID understand the game? The players and commentators of the time; And the man who the vast majority of professional basketball players said owned their soul and won MVP's/Ship's year after year? Russell.

Eras tend to know who their best/most-dominant players were. And that era knew it was Russell.

Really? Because Kyrie thinks the world is flat..... Now just imagine what players without all of the information we have thought in the 60s etc etc.

tredigs
09-23-2017, 04:12 AM
Really? Because Kyrie thinks the world is flat..... Now just imagine what players without all of the information we have thought in the 60s etc etc.

Lol... and everybody else disagrees. Kyrie is the Wilt vote of 1970. Case in point.

More-Than-Most
09-23-2017, 06:03 AM
Lol... and everybody else disagrees. Kyrie is the Wilt vote of 1970. Case in point.

Alright well what about those that in basketball would try to argue Kobe over Lebron or Duncan year after year even year after year those players were just better but because Kobe shot a ton and these guys looked up to him... My point is then/now/or in the future players opinions are meaningless because they go by things that mean little in a team game. Players will go by the guy they had more trouble against... or a person they like and about 100 other things that are meaningless when determining best player. Players are stupid.

mightybosstone
09-23-2017, 12:40 PM
I just feel watching him change the game and put the NBA on the world map is just unmatched. MJ carried that torch in the 90's, Shaq/Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, the NBA blew up because of Magic/Bird.

The whole "changed the game" narrative is so tired, though, dude. At the end of the day, I care less about what a player did for the game as a mainstream sport and media sensation and more about what they did on the court. Yao made the game insanely popular in China; does that mean we should rank him ahead of superior centers? No.

I'm not old enough to say that I could appreciate Magic's game in the 80s, nor can I say that I know enough about Wilt that I could describe how he played in the 60s and 70s. So I have to go off the numbers and the accolades, and those tell me that Magic simply isn't in the same realm as Wilt and some of the other guys who deserve to go ahead of him. His lack of longevity really hurts he and Bird in these discussions, and his peak isn't so great that it should push him ahead of guys with similar peaks who played for longer. That's why I typically have he and Bird in that 8-10 range behind guys like Wilt, Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem.

But there's no wrong answers in these discussions, and you're certainly entitled to make a case for Magic here. You could make a pretty strong one, but I think it's got to be more than "he made the sport more popular."

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2017, 01:33 PM
Yea everyone has different opinions and the game keeps producing amazing generational players. With modern medicine, training and science study food/vitamins etc the players are better, bigger, faster, smarter.

When I was a kid, I saw Magic play, I'm old enough to have witnessed the absolute beauty of what he brought to the table. Probably why I still post people up nowadays and hit em with hook shots :p

Wilt and Bill were two dominant once in a life time type of players and absolutely dominated an era.

MJ, took competitive drive and willed it to a whole new level.

Shaq and Kobe were the best duo I have ever seen and could have won 8 titles.

Duncan, best PF I have ever seen, and I've seen some great ones growing up. He led by example and as much as I hated the Spurs over the wars and battles, I've always respected Duncan.

Lebron, I never liked Lebron, his personality bugged me from the get-go but no denying he's one of the greatest to ever play this game and he still has a chance to get to the top of the ladder.

All I'm saying is, with the way the game has evolved and the how the players keep getting better, we're going to have to have top 10's for each 40/50 years of NBA Bball.

I can go Bball reference all the info on Magic and make a case but why bother? Everyone's mind is already made up on who's next on their list. On my list it's easily Magic. :)

Chronz
09-23-2017, 08:05 PM
Wilt took the Warriors from the basement to going toe to toe with a dynasty. His championship in 67 is quite possibly the greatest ever won by any individual.

Shaq was a better version of that guy

Chronz
09-23-2017, 08:06 PM
**** longevity btw. Let's make actually being the better player matter more

mightybosstone
09-23-2017, 11:33 PM
Yea everyone has different opinions and the game keeps producing amazing generational players. With modern medicine, training and science study food/vitamins etc the players are better, bigger, faster, smarter.

When I was a kid, I saw Magic play, I'm old enough to have witnessed the absolute beauty of what he brought to the table. Probably why I still post people up nowadays and hit em with hook shots :p

Wilt and Bill were two dominant once in a life time type of players and absolutely dominated an era.

MJ, took competitive drive and willed it to a whole new level.

Shaq and Kobe were the best duo I have ever seen and could have won 8 titles.

Duncan, best PF I have ever seen, and I've seen some great ones growing up. He led by example and as much as I hated the Spurs over the wars and battles, I've always respected Duncan.

Lebron, I never liked Lebron, his personality bugged me from the get-go but no denying he's one of the greatest to ever play this game and he still has a chance to get to the top of the ladder.

All I'm saying is, with the way the game has evolved and the how the players keep getting better, we're going to have to have top 10's for each 40/50 years of NBA Bball.

I can go Bball reference all the info on Magic and make a case but why bother? Everyone's mind is already made up on who's next on their list. On my list it's easily Magic. :)

And that's fine. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I just think the eye test and media popularity are kinda weak barometers to judge players in an all-time contest. You want to bring up the guy's transcendent playmaking ability, how he made those around him substantially better, his five rings, his three MVPs and his three finals MVPs? Now there's an argument to made there.

As to whether my mind is made up, I can assure you it's not. This league is older than my parents and nearly as old as my grandparents. I'm constantly learning things about the sport and athletes that played before my time. It doesn't hurt to have some solid debate and lay all our cards on the table in these discussions. You never know when a piece of data or evidence will sway you in an opposite direction.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2017, 11:51 PM
You open minded intelligent man, that's why I love ya :)

tredigs
09-24-2017, 05:35 PM
Wilt took the Warriors from the basement to going toe to toe with a dynasty. His championship in 67 is quite possibly the greatest ever won by any individual.

Shaq was a better version of that guy

Lmfao - won by any individual? Dude had Hal Greer and Chet Walker on his team. BEASTS of that age (for those watching - PERENNIAL All Stars who were at their peak) . Pretty sure he had Billy Cunningham too (another budding future perennial All Star). That team was stacked as ****. Reel it in Chronz.

Bill Russell was considered the better player of the time - and it was not a debate.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-24-2017, 06:26 PM
Wilt or Duncan.

Dade County
09-24-2017, 11:31 PM
It's MAGIC JOHNSON you youngsters! Lol

Shaq & then Magic

FlashBolt
09-25-2017, 12:54 AM
**** longevity btw. Let's make actually being the better player matter more

AKA, let's put T-Mac as an option?

LA_Raiders
09-25-2017, 01:16 AM
LeFlop 3? Lol

tredigs
09-25-2017, 01:22 AM
**** longevity btw. Let's make actually being the better player matter more

All things being relatively equal most people clearly do, but longevity matters. A lot. If you're not at peak form then your value is limited, and if you're not on the court at all then your value is zero. That is why Bill Walton is not in the top-10 All Time discussion, and why a season from Joel Embiid is still a pipe dream for fans. The ability to stay on the court is THE most important attribute a player can have. It should not go unnoticed in All-Time rankings (and frankly should probably be more highly regarded).

HandsOnTheWheel
09-25-2017, 02:15 AM
Ask and you shall receive :)

Hawkeye15
09-25-2017, 10:02 AM
it's Wilt

valade16
09-25-2017, 12:31 PM
Lmfao - won by any individual? Dude had Hal Greer and Chet Walker on his team. BEASTS of that age (for those watching - PERENNIAL All Stars who were at their peak) . Pretty sure he had Billy Cunningham too (another budding future perennial All Star). That team was stacked as ****. Reel it in Chronz.

Bill Russell was considered the better player of the time - and it was not a debate.

To add to this, in the playoffs that year Hal Greer averaged 27.7 PPG, Wilt 21.7 PPG and Chet 21.7 PPG. Cunningham was indeed on that team as well.

Ebbs
09-25-2017, 01:26 PM
Unpopular opinion: Larry Bird.

valade16
09-25-2017, 01:34 PM
If anything this solidifies how wide open the order of the best ever is, 8 different players have all received a vote for #4.

hugepatsfan
09-25-2017, 03:19 PM
Shaq IMO. Maybe his longevity wasn't up there with some other guys but his prime was long enough for me to put him in discussions like this and at his peak not sure anyone in the history of the game was better.

kdspurman
09-25-2017, 03:26 PM
If anything this solidifies how wide open the order of the best ever is, 8 different players have all received a vote for #4.

#5 should be interesting

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2017, 09:36 PM
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
Bird
Wilt
Dream
Russell

Chronz
09-26-2017, 12:44 AM
Lmfao - won by any individual? Dude had Hal Greer and Chet Walker on his team. BEASTS of that age (for those watching - PERENNIAL All Stars who were at their peak) . Pretty sure he had Billy Cunningham too (another budding future perennial All Star). That team was stacked as ****. Reel it in Chronz.

Bill Russell was considered the better player of the time - and it was not a debate.

Pretty stacked but not as stacked as the Celtics without Russell imo but its arguable . Wilt had good teammates but him reaching that level of play is why that team was considered the greatest for so long. Values change over time, I value peak play more now and Russell never won in such dominant fashion

Chronz
09-26-2017, 12:45 AM
To add to this, in the playoffs that year Hal Greer averaged 27.7 PPG, Wilt 21.7 PPG and Chet 21.7 PPG. Cunningham was indeed on that team as well.
Necessary when the Celtics had their run of terror

More-Than-Most
09-26-2017, 01:36 AM
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
Bird
Wilt
Dream
Russell

Let me ask you this... I assume you have kobe where he is because of longevity but then you have guys like Shaq and magic where they are who lacked the longevity of say a Duncan or dream. I am kind of curious on your reasoning on why a guy like Magic/Shaq is better than a guy like Duncan? Or how a Kobe/Bird is better than a dream?

More-Than-Most
09-26-2017, 01:38 AM
Let me ask you this... I assume you have kobe where he is because of longevity but then you have guys like Shaq and magic where they are who lacked the longevity of say a Duncan or dream. I am kind of curious on your reasoning on why a guy like Magic/Shaq is better than a guy like Duncan? Or how a Kobe/Bird is better than a dream?

If you are going by unstoppable play with having magic and Shaq on there then kobe cant really be ahead of Wilt/Dream etc... If you are going by championship like I am sure your will fall back on then how can a guy with 11 not be a top 2 player?

Edit- NVM after seeing you post this in your forum it kind of waters down your opinion.

They're doing the All-Time Player Rankings in The NBA Forum, soon we all gotta go in there and vote Kobe in the top 10 because you know everyone seems to hate Kobe.