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View Full Version : If Stockton played today



JasonJohnHorn
09-21-2017, 03:07 PM
What kind of numbers would he post?

Amazing 3pt shooter. Amazing passer. Guards the passing lanes like crazy in a league that relies increasingly on passing.

If seems like he was born about 20 years too early.

I realize that most would assume his steals numbers would go down, but unlike guys like Jordan and Alvin Robertson, who many claim were allowed to rip people's arms off in pursuit of a steal, Stocking usually picked off bad passes. The league now relies on passing more than ever.

Back then, he wasn't given many 3pt shots; Sloan went with the PnR. Now, he'd be allowed to exploit that.

His passing? With the increase number of possessions, it seems like he could get more, or at least as many; but teams rely more on team-passing and not a conventional PG (see SAS, GSW), but we've seen teams like Houston and OKC last year the Celtics in 08, and Nash's Suns rely on one passer more than others.


What kind of stat line would Stockton post today?

Heediot
09-21-2017, 03:43 PM
One of the smartest players in history. He'd put up similar numbers. I think if he wanted to he could score more. He could be Nash with defense, but I don't know if he has that scorer's mentality ingrained into him. He seems like one of the purest play makers ever.

He's too smart not adapt and exploit whatever rules are in front of him. I think He'd be a better version of Nash.

JasonJohnHorn
09-21-2017, 04:09 PM
One of the smartest players in history. He'd put up similar numbers. I think if he wanted to he could score more. He could be Nash with defense, but I don't know if he has that scorer's mentality ingrained into him. He seems like one of the purest play makers ever.

He's too smart not adapt and exploit whatever rules are in front of him. I think He'd be a better version of Nash.


I feel the same way about his scoring. He didn't have a scorer's mentality, even though it seemed like he could score at will. He was like somes chess wizard: you see a pawn come out, and a knight get brought out, and then you see the bishop coming and you're like "I don't know what's going on... it looks like I got this, but I feel like there is a trap being set."


He's one of those guys who when you are playing against in high school, you just feel like they can score whenever they want, but they aren't just scorers: they utilize the entire team around them. They are looking for the pass, and you know they are going to break you down, get you to commit defensively to something, and then kick the ball out, or score themselves.

There were two guys I played with/against like that. When I played one-on-one with most people, I'd beat them or be competitive (this was a pretty much all-white high school in a small town, so that isn't saying much mind you). But these two dudes... it was just like they could beat me 21-0. It was embarrassing. And when I was on the same team as them in pick-up games, I was always so much more effective. We're just talking street ball among a bunch of kids, none of whom are much more than 6 feet mind you... but it's that same dichotomy.

There were guys on the high school team that scored more than these guys, but they were always clearly the best players on their teams. They set the tone and opened everything up for everybody else.


I've no clue what Stockton's stat lines would be... I feel like nearly the same, but I know for sure he would be kicking @$$ and taking names, and I feel like he'd get more appreciation in this era than he did in his own, and that's saying a lot because though he would walk around Barcelona when playing for the Dream Team and not get hassled by casual fans, everybody who knew the game thought he was the $#!t. He was your favorite player's favorite player.

Heediot
09-21-2017, 04:21 PM
The PG's role have changed as well. In today's game and today's rules, the PG is asked to do more in terms of scoring. It seems like you have almost 10 pg's putting up 20 plus or close to twenty.

RWB-Curry-Harden-Wall-Lillard-Kyrie-IT-Kemba-Lowry-Conley, maybe even more Cp3, Dragic...

PG usage is crazy high nowadays.

Historically you did have PG's that could score, but there would be 1-2 PG's in every era that could average 20, not to the degree as it is today. Typical the ball just brought the ball up and initiated the offense.

I think Stockton would be smart enough to adapt to the changing role and climate of today's game. He'd probably be closer to a Chris Paul in terms of impact. Play-maker first, Scorer second, and he'd give you that defense, dirty-cleverness- grit- and toughness as well.

ewing
09-21-2017, 04:27 PM
One of the smartest players in history. He'd put up similar numbers. I think if he wanted to he could score more. He could be Nash with defense, but I don't know if he has that scorer's mentality ingrained into him. He seems like one of the purest play makers ever.

He's too smart not adapt and exploit whatever rules are in front of him. I think He'd be a better version of Nash.

I agree the only thing I disagree with the OP is the impression he left that Stockton wasn't a hacker. Dude was physical as **** and got away with a lot on his way to all those steals

WaDe03
09-21-2017, 05:30 PM
Honestly, just another TJ McConnell if he played in today's league.

Heediot
09-21-2017, 05:46 PM
Honestly, just another TJ McConnell if he played in today's league.

LOL. Too crafty, smart, and competitive to be compared like that. He's like a Draymond for PG's, kinda dirty, smart, tough, and just makes the right plays. Gets the most of his talent. Can shoot better then dray though,

ewing
09-21-2017, 05:52 PM
Honestly, just another TJ McConnell if he played in today's league.

both clutch as ****

WaDe03
09-21-2017, 05:56 PM
both clutch as ****

My point exactly!

Heediot
09-21-2017, 06:26 PM
My point exactly!

I thought because he was white and not the most physically imposing.

MJNetsIsles
09-21-2017, 07:04 PM
I thought because he was white and not the most physically imposing.

That makes you a heediot.

Scoots
09-21-2017, 07:09 PM
I agree the only thing I disagree with the OP is the impression he left that Stockton wasn't a hacker. Dude was physical as **** and got away with a lot on his way to all those steals

I loved to watch him play, and he was easily one of the dirtiest players I've ever seen.

Heediot
09-21-2017, 08:21 PM
That makes you a heediot.

maybe i got the balls to call out another poster, or at least make him clarify. dude just dick rode ewings comment. i don't see the tj mcconell comparison at all.

WaDe03
09-21-2017, 08:21 PM
I thought because he was white and not the most physically imposing.

All the above lol.

WaDe03
09-21-2017, 08:22 PM
maybe i got the balls to call out another poster, or at least make him clarify. dude just dick rode ewings comment. i don't see the tj mcconell comparison at all.

Called me out how?

Heediot
09-21-2017, 08:26 PM
Called me out how?

i just don't see the comparison bro. yeah i went a little too far, but you have to give me more then just agree with ewing clutch comment.

WaDe03
09-21-2017, 09:13 PM
i just don't see the comparison bro. yeah i went a little too far, but you have to give me more then just agree with ewing clutch comment.

Tbh it was just a joke because anytime you ask an older player about the current players they say "he would be near as good in my era" or "he would just be a role player in my era."

R. Johnson#3
09-21-2017, 09:14 PM
John Stockton is one of the best point guards ever to play the game. Just insanely smart, always remained calm, always made the right decision with the ball and if all else failed he could score too. He was a pesky defender and a dirty little bastard. Despite the latter, I'm still a fan.

Stock was phenomenal and if he played today he'd be even better. The biggest difference is he wouldn't get away with nearly as much on defence. That's really the only downside I could think of for him. He'd eat every single PGs lunch if he played today.

JasonJohnHorn
09-21-2017, 09:31 PM
I agree the only thing I disagree with the OP is the impression he left that Stockton wasn't a hacker. Dude was physical as **** and got away with a lot on his way to all those steals

I will agree with you to an extent. Everybody in the league was a hacker. But guys like Robertson and Jordan (not a knock on them at all; that was just the climate of the league) relies heavily on them (almost exclusively); Stockton did that as well (you are fair to suggest that I understated that). However, Stockton relies heavily on guarding the passing lanes as well. Especially when he was coming over to help on double teams (guys like Hakeem, or Sampson, or Ewing way back in the day, and even guys like Shaq later on among others). He's watch for their pass out and pick it off. Or when guys were bringing the ball off the court, he's slack off until they got into shooting range, and if they'd pass it up court before them, he'd leap at the ball.

He did his share of hacking: yes. But he knew how to watch those passing lanes with his peripheral vision as well.

Heediot
09-21-2017, 09:38 PM
Tbh it was just a joke because anytime you ask an older player about the current players they say "he would be near as good in my era" or "he would just be a role player in my era."

cool. couldn't tell if you were joking with the honestly word to start out that post.

JasonJohnHorn
09-21-2017, 09:39 PM
Historically you did have PG's that could score, but there would be 1-2 PG's in every era that could average 20, not to the degree as it is today. Typical the ball just brought the ball up and initiated the offense. .

I think they were more common than that. In the late 80's early 90s I remember Zeke, KJ, Magic, Payton all scoring 20+ and other guys like Fat Lever, Derek Harper posting 18 or 19 a game... hell.. even Michael Adams (5'10 mind you) had a season where he posted 26 a game!

That's not mentioning guys like Mark Price and Mookie who often got in the high teens.

The game has change in terms of conventional 'positions' (it is almost a positionless game now) so you see BIGGER scorers (HArden and Westy going around 30 a game playing 'point' but their 'PG' is like Jordan's 'PG', but there are always a dozen or so PG posting around 20 a game.

Heediot
09-21-2017, 09:54 PM
I think they were more common than that. In the late 80's early 90s I remember Zeke, KJ, Magic, Payton all scoring 20+ and other guys like Fat Lever, Derek Harper posting 18 or 19 a game... hell.. even Michael Adams (5'10 mind you) had a season where he posted 26 a game!

That's not mentioning guys like Mark Price and Mookie who often got in the high teens.

The game has change in terms of conventional 'positions' (it is almost a positionless game now) so you see BIGGER scorers (HArden and Westy going around 30 a game playing 'point' but their 'PG' is like Jordan's 'PG', but there are always a dozen or so PG posting around 20 a game.

I don't think it was as common. There was Thomas and Magic in the 80's when he played. Payton, KJ and Tim Hardaway in the early to mid 90's. Iverson after that. Harper and Price had their moment and so did others, but there was never more then a handful in any era (averaging 20 or more) IIRC.

Even if you take out Harden, guys like Eric Bledsoe are scoring.

Edit: I forgot about Penny. He was a scorer for a pg.

JasonJohnHorn
09-21-2017, 10:18 PM
I don't think it was as common. There was Thomas and Magic in the 80's when he played. Payton, KJ and Tim Hardaway in the early to mid 90's. Iverson after that. Harper and Price had their moment and so did others, but there was never more then a handful in any era (averaging 20 or more) IIRC.

Even if you take out Harden, guys like Eric Bledsoe are scoring.

Edit: I forgot about Penny. He was a scorer for a pg.

Good points... I think it's a little closer, especially accounting for pacing, but it is certainly true that front court players were more the focus of offenses in general; guards and wings get far more scoring opportunities now. Outside of a few teams like Chi-town, Detroit, Portland, and GSW back then, wings and points were augmenting the Cs and PFs. Now it's certainly the other way around.


I still can't get over Michael Adams: 5'10 and averages 26/10 a game (granted, in a high-octane gimmick offense) and STILL didn't make an All-Star team. How d you post 26/10 and not get on the all-Star team?

Heediot
09-22-2017, 01:14 AM
Good points... I think it's a little closer, especially accounting for pacing, but it is certainly true that front court players were more the focus of offenses in general; guards and wings get far more scoring opportunities now. Outside of a few teams like Chi-town, Detroit, Portland, and GSW back then, wings and points were augmenting the Cs and PFs. Now it's certainly the other way around.


I still can't get over Michael Adams: 5'10 and averages 26/10 a game (granted, in a high-octane gimmick offense) and STILL didn't make an All-Star team. How d you post 26/10 and not get on the all-Star team?

I was too young to remember his big season, but looking at the stats he averaged 26 on 39 fg and 29 3 fg? lolol

JasonJohnHorn
09-22-2017, 09:19 AM
I was too young to remember his big season, but looking at the stats he averaged 26 on 39 fg and 29 3 fg? lolol

Yeah... there are some horrid elements to that season... he shot under .300 from the arc, but was taking almost 9 3pters a game... I guess people kept daring him to shoot and he said "fine".

He was short, so his FG% is naturally low because he gets blocked a lot and it's easier for guys to contest his shots. Also... he was a liability on D due to his size. That said, he was a great playmaker and was great at drawing fouls. He wasn't a 'superstar' like Harden or Westy, but he still managed to get 8 fts a game that year. That said, it's not surprising that team was dead last with that kind of low efficiency.

If you look at Iverson's MVP season though, the stats Adams put up are actually quite competitive with that. per36, Iverson posted 26 on 21 shots, which is what Adams did, and Iverson shot .420 FG% and .320 3tp%, which is only about 3% more than Adams. He also only got 4 assists to Adams' 10.


Adams was certainly an inefficient scorer, but great play makers (Westy got 30/10 with almost 2 more turnovers than Adams 26/10; Harden for 29/11 and got almost 2.5 more turnovers a game than Adams: those turnovers can really hurt a team, though no more than Adams' missed FGs).

I would certainly not argue that Adams is anywhere near as good as any of those guys, and he only really managed that for a single season, but his first three seasons in Denver, he was a solid 3pt shooter and was a strong playmaker through his career.

He's just one of those little guys I remember fondly because I was a kid when I was watching him (guys like Spudd Webb and Muggsy are always fan favorites among kids), but when you consider what he managed to pull off with his size, it's pretty impressive. Especially when he also managed to stay in the league for 11 years. A lot of guys his size are just brought in for a couple season, bounce around from team to team coming off the bench when foul trouble comes up, but he was a full-time starter for seven seasons, and made an All-Star team.

Interesting player.

Hawkeye15
09-22-2017, 09:30 AM
Nash with defense is a good call. Stockton would probably be the best PG in the game. I think he would be a mix of Nash, and CP3.

People want to talk about how physical he was, but imagine him in the era where 180 lb men can't be touched and have freedom? His passing angles would be even easier, and he would seriously shred most PG's today.

He is one of the guys that would translate anytime, anywhere.