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HandsOnTheWheel
09-17-2017, 04:15 AM
Figured I'd keep this going to liven this place a bit

1.) Lebron James
2.)

I know the guy who did this before had a system to elect future players but feel free to post suggestions on who should be available to pick next on players not available for selection

HandsOnTheWheel
09-17-2017, 02:16 PM
Poll closes in 3 days

Allphakenny1
09-17-2017, 05:24 PM
Argument here is for Curry or Durant as they should be #2 and #3. Should it be Durant who is simply the better basketball player, or Curry who has the much larger effect on winning and making everyone around him better. Kawhi should not be in the conversation yet, until the #4 spot. He still has a lot more to prove to surpass both Curry and Durant.

tp13baby
09-17-2017, 07:04 PM
Argument here is for Curry or Durant as they should be #2 and #3. Should it be Durant who is simply the better basketball player, or Curry who has the much larger effect on winning and making everyone around him better. Kawhi should not be in the conversation yet, until the #4 spot. He still has a lot more to prove to surpass both Curry and Durant.

Yeah KD for me but I fully agree Currys ceiling when it comes to outcome is higher than KDs.

TO Rapz
09-17-2017, 07:13 PM
For me, its 2) Durant, 3) Curry

kdspurman
09-17-2017, 09:15 PM
Argument here is for Curry or Durant as they should be #2 and #3. Should it be Durant who is simply the better basketball player, or Curry who has the much larger effect on winning and making everyone around him better. Kawhi should not be in the conversation yet, until the #4 spot. He still has a lot more to prove to surpass both Curry and Durant.

Why not tho? He's got a legit argument in anyway you want to measure it.

mrblisterdundee
09-17-2017, 10:29 PM
Argument here is for Curry or Durant as they should be #2 and #3. Should it be Durant who is simply the better basketball player, or Curry who has the much larger effect on winning and making everyone around him better. Kawhi should not be in the conversation yet, until the #4 spot. He still has a lot more to prove to surpass both Curry and Durant.

Here's a classic example of taking an individual's success out of the context of their team. Kawhi has proven plenty, whether it's winning finals MVP and beating the Heatles, or effectively taking it to the Warriors as the only superstar on his team. That's more than Durant has proven, even though I still voted him in as the second-best player after LeBron.

tredigs
09-18-2017, 02:11 AM
Lol there's a reason why the Warriors are demonstratively better when Curry is on the court rather than KD - as great as he is - and it is as simple as that. The Finals were a great situation for KD - but Curry was the best player in the playoffs for arguably the best team in history. 0 votes at #2. You guys are lost.

Vee-Rex
09-18-2017, 10:52 AM
Lol there's a reason why the Warriors are demonstratively better when Curry is on the court rather than KD - as great as he is - and it is as simple as that. The Finals were a great situation for KD - but Curry was the best player in the playoffs for arguably the best team in history. 0 votes at #2. You guys are lost.

Are you really gonna throw a fit about Curry being ranked lower than KD? I mean it's pretty close - and their playoff numbers are pretty close. I'd give the edge to KD in that situation. He was more efficient offensively and better defensively. KD clearly took command as the primary option and "go-getter" in the finals as well.

And KD has the regular season edge over Curry. He was more efficient offensively and better defensively.

The Cavs were once "better" with Delly on the court than Kyrie for an entire season - doesn't mean jack **** about who is the better player. Curry's familiarity with the system undoubtedly helps in that aspect, considering KD has only spent one year there (actually less than a year when you factor in games missed). Context is EVERYTHING with impact/on-off numbers and you can't simply gloss over it while declaring Curry is better because of that one thing.

I wouldn't be upset if people picked Curry over KD, but your reaction towards people picking KD over Steph is pretty mind-boggling and I think there's probably some bias involved there.

Vee-Rex
09-18-2017, 10:57 AM
IMO,

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Kawhi/Steph
4. Steph/Kawhi

The fact that Steph is even considered at as high as #2 overall is testament to his insane impact on offense, considering all 3 other players (Bron, KD, Kawhi) are ELITE two-way players on both ends of the court. Elite offensively, elite defensively. Steph is not elite defensively - yet I would not even be mad if he was voted in at #2. Again, testament to his offensive impact #'s and value on the court.

tredigs
09-18-2017, 11:10 AM
Are you really gonna throw a fit about Curry being ranked lower than KD? I mean it's pretty close - and their playoff numbers are pretty close. I'd give the edge to KD in that situation. He was more efficient offensively and better defensively. KD clearly took command as the primary option and "go-getter" in the finals as well.

And KD has the regular season edge over Curry. He was more efficient offensively and better defensively.

The Cavs were once "better" with Delly on the court than Kyrie for an entire season - doesn't mean jack **** about who is the better player. Curry's familiarity with the system undoubtedly helps in that aspect, considering KD has only spent one year there (actually less than a year when you factor in games missed). Context is EVERYTHING with impact/on-off numbers and you can't simply gloss over it while declaring Curry is better because of that one thing.

I wouldn't be upset if people picked Curry over KD, but your reaction towards people picking KD over Steph is pretty mind-boggling and I think there's probably some bias involved there.
Context is very much taken into account with advanced on/off metrics.

KD was more efficient offensively than Curry in the Finals, and better on D than Curry as well (those #'s being reflected in the aggregate playoff stats). That statement goes for KD over Lebron in the Finals/playoffs/regular-season as well mind you. However, like the rest of the post-season, the bulk of the attention in the Finals was still primed on Curry, and Curry was unquestionably the teams driving force/best player in all of the previous series (KD missing time on the run as well). If the team has an internal playoff MVP, there is no question as to who earned it.

In the regular season we saw Curry sort of over-compensate for KD's arrival and just tried to let him do his thing in the early going. Part of this is just his nature as a PG, and part of it was him probably knowing that they were going to win the vast majority of the games in the regular season regardless and it was best to assimilate KD quicker than later. When KD went down, the switch was hit and we saw Curry and the team reach a higher level (rattling off their longest winning streak, etc). When KD returned, they found a way to co-exist much more seamlessly with Curry now being the driving force, and that continued through the playoffs (until the Finals where the Cavs made a more concerted effort to stop Curry... which did not work in the slightest... but much credit to KD as he stomped all over them for it).

Long story short, the b2b and unanimous MVP in his peak is being highly underestimated if I click on "View Poll results" and there are 4 players garnering votes, with none of them being for the guy who garners the most attention from opposing coaches in the NBA for the past 3 seasons and was the driving force for maybe the best team in history.

tredigs
09-18-2017, 11:31 AM
IMO,

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Kawhi/Steph
4. Steph/Kawhi

The fact that Steph is even considered at as high as #2 overall is testament to his insane impact on offense, considering all 3 other players (Bron, KD, Kawhi) are ELITE two-way players on both ends of the court. Elite offensively, elite defensively. Steph is not elite defensively - yet I would not even be mad if he was voted in at #2. Again, testament to his offensive impact #'s and value on the court.

There were very few stretches where Kawhi and especially Lebron were ELITE defensively last season. Kawhi took a massive step back on that end (mostly due to his workload offensively obviously... but it is what it is... we don't ever think about that for Curry), and Lebron is just not a high impact defender at this point by and large. He certainly was not able to slow down Durant in the slightest (highest shooting efficiency in NBA Finals history from KD along with an ultra efficient 27/9/8 from Steph). So, what exactly is the criteria for this supposed 2 way dominance?

WaDe03
09-18-2017, 11:39 AM
Was going to vote KD but he got caught making multiple twitter accounts to defend himself and got caught because he posted on his main account without knowing lol. He's so damn sensitive and soft, can't stand him.

909768300330209281

909628458761846784

909629515600732160

There was a tweet with a link where Reddit users found other fake accounts but I didn't post it because I didn't know if that was allowed.

Vee-Rex
09-18-2017, 11:44 AM
Context is very much taken into account with advanced on/off metrics.


Some context, sure. But not all. It's literally impossible to quantify the fact that KD was introduced to a new system, compared to Steph who had already played in that system for years. Draymond had better advanced on/off metrics than KD too - hell, Iggy wasn't THAT far behind KD on RPM. I don't think it's entirely fair to KD especially considering his RPM was higher in each of the last two full seasons (2013-14 and 2015-16) than it was this past year. Not Steph-high, but still higher regardless.

Even so, the argument that player X has a higher RPM than player Y so he's better is a very poor one when player Y has been more efficient offensively (in the past year) and considerably better defensively.



KD was more efficient offensively then Curry in the Finals, and better on D than Curry as well (those #'s being reflected in the aggregate playoff stats). That statement goes for KD over Lebron in the Finals/playoffs as well. However, like the rest of the post-season, the bulk of the attention in the Finals was still primed on Curry, and Curry was unquestionably the teams driving force/best player in all of the previous series (KD missing time on the run as well). If the team has an internal playoff MVP, there is no question as to who earned it.


I can't speak for the Blazers/Jazz/Spurs, but I feel I can definitely speak for the Cavs on their defensive philosophy. Initially we gave the attention to all the shooters (particularly Steph and Klay, but mostly Steph) since it had some success in the previous finals. KD ripped that apart. Then we TRIED to shift that focus to KD. We TRIED to trap KD and hedge hard on PnRs, we tried shifting the defense in KD's direction, and he absolutely ANNIHILATED us. Similar to how Paul George did in the 1st round (but obviously much more difficult vs. KD), we couldn't trap him at all. His length and passing destroyed any attempt to give him extra attention.

The simple fact of the matter is, we were better off sticking one defender on KD and living/dying with the results. You can't double that man on GS because he doesn't force turnovers, not nearly to the extent that Steph will.

Yes, we mostly gave Steph our attention - and it's not because Steph is just the better player. It's because Steph is more prone to turnovers, mistakes, bad shots, etc..., whereas KD was just more unstoppable. Why double him and give all our attention to him when he's gonna score anyway or give open shots to the other deadly shooters. Double/trap Steph and the ball might not find its way to others as easily.



Long story short, the b2b and unanimous MVP in his peak is being highly underestimated if I click on "View Poll results" and there is 4 players garnering votes, and none of them being for the guy who garners the most attention from opposing coaches in the NBA for the past 3 seasons.

Idk... I don't see it as him being underestimated. I mean, LeBron is pretty much universally regarded as the best player in the world, but from an actual statistical and basketball standpoint KD, Steph, and Kawhi are at that dude's heels. I mean, I won't shoot down a dude if he claimed KD was better, even if I disagree. So just because KD has 6 votes and Steph none doesn't mean people don't think they're extremely close.

tredigs
09-18-2017, 11:56 AM
Good post Rex, I'm in line with the vast majority of it. What you're underestimating is that the gameplan for the vast majority of teams for the past 4 seasons has been on Curry - then figure out the rest later. That did not seem to change nearly as much as I anticipated with KD's arrival. Granted, the Cavs attempted it eventually, but yes it was a fruitless attempt and just opened up the shooting more (KD is not a better playmaker than Curry by any stretch, but he's a smart 7 footer who can make the right and even difficult pass).

The Curry dismissal is much more than this threads 12 votes or whatever pathetic amount PSD has on it, it's my take on his perception by the media/public at large recently. Those menial votes echo my sentiments that he is being highly underestimated of late. Imo it is extremely close between Kawhi/KD/Curry AND Lebron, and again despite public sentiment of late, I consider Westbrook/Harden in that 2nd tier.

Edit: Also, again that 2-way dominance mantra is thrown around far too flippantly based on rep. I see being an effective cog on a team defense as the far more valuable/tangible/reliable trait, which is what all 4 display regularly.

Vee-Rex
09-18-2017, 12:07 PM
There were very few stretches where Kawhi and especially Lebron were ELITE defensively last season. Kawhi took a massive step back on that end (mostly due to his workload offensively obviously... but it is what it is... we don't ever think about that for Curry), and Lebron is just not a high impact defender at this point by and large. He certainly was not able to slow down Durant in the slightest (highest shooting efficiency in NBA Finals history from KD along with an ultra efficient 27/9/8 from Steph). So, what exactly is the criteria for this supposed 2 way dominance?

Yet, all 3 of KD, LBJ, Kawhi had superior DRPM numbers than Steph. All 3 players were superior defenders. Curry has average defensive impact.

All 3 of KD, LBJ, and Kawhi were superior man-to-man defenders from SportVu tracking than Steph (Kawhi really slipped a lot indeed and was only marginally better than Steph this year, but you see my rankings have him and Steph interchangeably). KD and LeBron however were vastly superior man-to-man defenders than Steph.

All 3 are elite two-way players. Steph isn't. And if you want to argue Kawhi is no longer an elite defensive player then good luck with that. His man-to-man defense sky-rocketed in the playoffs and he was easily elite defensively, while posting even BETTER offensive numbers than he did in the regular season.

tredigs
09-18-2017, 12:15 PM
Yet, all 3 of KD, LBJ, Kawhi had superior DRPM numbers than Steph. All 3 players were superior defenders. Curry has average defensive impact.

All 3 of KD, LBJ, and Kawhi were superior man-to-man defenders from SportVu tracking than Steph (Kawhi really slipped a lot indeed and was only marginally better than Steph this year, but you see my rankings have him and Steph interchangeably). KD and LeBron however were vastly superior man-to-man defenders than Steph.

They're all elite two-way players, and if you want to argue Kawhi is no longer an elite defensive player then good luck with that. His man-to-man defense sky-rocketed in the playoffs and he was easily elite defensively, while posting even BETTER offensive numbers than he did in the regular season.

DRPM and RPM in general is not season to season - they use prior years analysis and that's why you don't see a bigger slip than you might expect. It also does not account for the defenders they line up with. DRPM IMO is the lesser of the two RPM stats for that reason. They unquestionably have elite potential over a guy like Curry and showcase it here and there (KD much more so than Kawhi or Lebron last season from what I saw), but it's not a day to day thing and when it mattered most in the Finals, Lebron - be it attrition or aptitude or a combo of the both - did not have what it took to accomplish it on both ends; He got torched.

I'm much more concerned with a players overall impact on the opposition and more importantly his own teams ability to win games. Curry has a very strong case as being as important as any player in the NBA in that regard. Other coaches certainly get that. Fans should get back on board.


Concerning Kawhi in particular, I think we got robbed by not being able to see a full series of him versus Golden State. I wanted to see the adjustments and gameplans and everything else. I still am not convinced Zaza did that BS on purpose, but regardless, it was a damn shame. Next season will be his true showcase.

hugepatsfan
09-18-2017, 12:16 PM
KD making a PSD account right to argue he should be #1.

Vee-Rex
09-18-2017, 12:21 PM
Good post Rex, I'm in line with the vast majority of it. What you're underestimating is that the gameplan for the vast majority of teams for the past 4 seasons has been on Curry - then figure out the rest later. That did not seem to change nearly as much as I anticipated with KD's arrival. Granted, the Cavs attempted it eventually, but yes it was a fruitless attempt and just opened up the shooting more (KD is not a better playmaker than Curry by any stretch, but he's a smart 7 footer who can make the right and even difficult pass).

The Curry dismissal is much more than this threads 12 votes or whatever pathetic amount PSD has on it, it's my take on his perception by the media/public at large recently. Those menial votes echo my sentiments that he is being highly underestimated of late. Imo it is extremely close between Kawhi/KD/Curry AND Lebron, and again despite public sentiment of late, I consider Westbrook/Harden in that 2nd tier.

Edit: Also, again that 2-way dominance mantra is thrown around far too flippantly based on rep. I see being an effective cog on a team defense as the far more valuable/tangible/reliable trait, which is what all 4 display regularly.

I hear you, and I do think that, regardless of Steph's likelihood of forcing turnovers compared to KD's, there's a scarier element to his offense in that it seems to propel GS to more unstoppable heights. Sounds weird, but the high RPM is an accurate reflection of just how deadly his gravity/impact is. Honestly, I think it's just so damn demoralizing. It's also a factor in him being the natural focus of opponent coaches.

Generally, I do think Steph gets underestimated more than the others. Particularly his defense - I think he's an average/slightly above-average defender, and a lot of it is his smarts. If he had the athleticism, length, and size of Kawhi/LeBron/KD then he'd be a much better defender overall.

As you mentioned, KD's ability to beat traps is due to not only his skill but just his physical stature. Pound-for-pound, I could definitely see the argument of Steph over KD (especially since I see it even without measuring pound-for-pound), and maybe even LeBron.

I think it's fun comparing them all though. I can't wait to see how things go next season.

valade16
09-18-2017, 12:30 PM
DRPM and RPM in general is not season to season - they use prior years analysis and that's why you don't see a bigger slip than you might expect. It also does not account for the defenders they line up with. DRPM IMO is the lesser of the two RPM stats for that reason. They unquestionably have elite potential over a guy like Curry and showcase it here and there (KD much more so than Kawhi or Lebron last season from what I saw), but it's not a day to day thing and when it mattered most in the Finals, Lebron - be it attrition or aptitude or a combo of the both - did not have what it took to accomplish it on both ends; He got torched.

I'm much more concerned with a players overall impact on the opposition and more importantly his own teams ability to win games. Curry has a very strong case as being as important as any player in the NBA in that regard. Other coaches certainly get that. Fans should get back on board.

Concerning Kawhi in particular, I think we got robbed by not being able to see a full series of him versus Golden State. I wanted to see the adjustments and gameplans and everything else. I still am not convinced Zaza did that BS on purpose, but regardless, it was a damn shame. Next season will be his true showcase.

LeBron being worked by KD actually sort of helps your point about Curry, it was very obvious throughout the series their defensive attention was designed to stop Curry, to the point where KD was getting wide open lanes on the fastbreak as several defenders rushed out to guard Curry.

Jetsguy
09-18-2017, 12:37 PM
Lebron
Curry
KD

for me personally

mngopher35
09-18-2017, 01:13 PM
Lebron
Curry
Kawhi/Durant

I don't think it's a coincidence that Durante playoff numbers shot up given his situation. IMO this doesn't make him a better individual player he just gets easier opportunities now (teams game plan and adjust more to curry still). Honestly given kawhis performance up until injury I am not sure who I take between him and Durant.

KingPosey
09-18-2017, 02:03 PM
I don't have curry here. I really think KL might steal the 3 spot this year and could even nip at the 2 spot shortly.

tredigs
09-18-2017, 02:52 PM
I don't have curry here. I really think KL might steal the 3 spot this year and could even nip at the 2 spot shortly.

Fair of course but any reasons?

tredigs
09-18-2017, 04:13 PM
A round of applause for reaching 20 votes. We're almost at a public middle-school classroom level boys and girls!

valade16
09-18-2017, 04:26 PM
A round of applause for reaching 20 votes. We're almost at a public middle-school classroom level boys and girls!

So long as we are above the intellect level of a public-middle school classroom I'd say were good lol.

tredigs
09-18-2017, 04:26 PM
So long as we are above the intellect level of a public-middle school classroom I'd say were good lol.

I think we have about as many votes who pass. Unfortunately most did not vote : (

FlashBolt
09-18-2017, 07:17 PM
This is probably the toughest one. #1 lacked any discussion as it was mostly LeBron-voters. This one can realistically go to three guys. Four if you are a RWB fanatic. I voted Durant here just because I think his Finals performance above Curry was the biggest difference to the Warriors winning. Stephen Curry might have the better indirect impact of how the Warriors system works but Durant is just unstoppable. You can also vote Kawhi here. I contemplated that but if I really had to choose between KD and Kawhi, I still gotta go KD. Won't have any debate if you choose Kawhi, though.

JAZZNC
09-19-2017, 12:49 AM
I'd have to vote Curry here. I feel like he's been crazy good for long enough now that it shouldn't be a question. His offensive impact is second to none. He is average to slightly above average on the defensive end so he is far from a one deminsional player as some would suggest. And one thing that always impresses me is the amount of rebounds he gets being the smallest guy on the court and not being an athletic specimen. There is a reason KD joined him, simple as that if you ask me.

Chronz
09-19-2017, 01:07 PM
Voting Kawhi or Curry, tho all have questions to answer

Hawkeye15
09-19-2017, 02:17 PM
voted Leonard.

FlashBolt
09-19-2017, 02:24 PM
I'm curious as to what the list was two years ago. Anyone have it?

Lakers + Giants
09-19-2017, 02:53 PM
2. KD 3 Kawhi

Accidentally voted Kawhi. My vote was meant for KD

kdspurman
09-19-2017, 03:08 PM
2. KD 3 Kawhi

Accidentally voted Kawhi. My vote was meant for KD

You got it right tho.. :smoking:

But I'll modify the results

mngopher35
09-19-2017, 03:30 PM
Probably too late but I still question KD more than the other 2 in the conversation for this. KD lead his own team in RPM one time and it was the season Westy was injured half the year (this goes back to at least 2012 with RAPM as well). His on/off numbers for his career are +3.6 RS and +3.0 post season. Westy is better, Curry is better, even a young Kawhi is better here (and his likely gets higher as he peaks).

When KD didn't have Curry/Klay/Green or Westy/Harden/Ibaka for 3 post seasons he had: PER:22.6, WS/48:.155, BPM:4.4. As a quick comparison Harden the last 3 years has a PER:23.7, WS/48:.172, BPM: 7.6 the last 3 years in the playoffs and is generally considered an under performer come playoffs.

To me KD is one of the best scorers for sure but is not a "gravity" type player like even a RW. He doesn't create a ton for his team, he plays off their creation and takes advantage of mismatches. He put himself in the perfect situation to capitalize on this but to me that doesn't shoot him up as an individual. I am not saying he isn't in the conversation or anything I just haven't seen many reasons to pick him over the other guys outside of FMVP stuff which is more situational than anything imo (and even that series we saw open lanes, 1v1 vs Kyrie or Love with no help, how Cle plays Curry etc).

Lakers + Giants
09-19-2017, 08:19 PM
You got it right tho.. :smoking:

But I'll modify the results

I think KD offensively is still on another level despite how good Kahwi is on offense too. And Defensively I do think KD is underrated, and this is coming from a huge Kawhi fan. I know Kawhi is basically a DPOY every year, but I got KD here. He's just too good offensively while still being a great defender too.

I got Kawhi third tho, so I'll vote him next.

kdspurman
09-19-2017, 08:33 PM
I think KD offensively is still on another level despite how good Kahwi is on offense too. And Defensively I do think KD is underrated, and this is coming from a huge Kawhi fan. I know Kawhi is basically a DPOY every year, but I got KD here. He's just too good offensively while still being a great defender too.

I got Kawhi third tho, so I'll vote him next.

Yea i respect that man, I mean being a top 3 player in the league is nothing to sneeze at, he caught a lot of people off guard.

I kinda think Kawhi's offense is a bit underrated too, similarly to KDs defense. He's got that MJ/Kobe look at times, and quite efficient.

Everyone has a different kind of criteria when it comes to these, which is cool, and obviously I may be biasedly, but I think the dude has a legit shot as #1 very soon with the way he's impoved each year.

Lakers + Giants
09-19-2017, 08:59 PM
Yea i respect that man, I mean being a top 3 player in the league is nothing to sneeze at, he caught a lot of people off guard.

I kinda think Kawhi's offense is a bit underrated too, similarly to KDs defense. He's got that MJ/Kobe look at times, and quite efficient.

Everyone has a different kind of criteria when it comes to these, which is cool, and obviously I may be biasedly, but I think the dude has a legit shot as #1 very soon with the way he's impoved each year.

Completely agree. And I don't think it's wrong to vote for Kawhi 2nd either.

Saddletramp
09-19-2017, 11:50 PM
Durant (much like Lebron but on a smaller scale) would succeed on any team with any teammates and any coach/system. To me, he's been the clear #2 player in the league just about since he was drafted. Kawhi is probably third based off of that (but Popovich, though....). Then again, Curry can be just so dynamic so often.


When I look at rankings like this, it comes down to who I think is just the better player regardless of teammates/coaches/schemes. And that's Kevin Durant.