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View Full Version : ESPN Ranking: Melo ranked at #64 of top 100 players; Lonzo #63



FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 04:55 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/carmelo-anthony-news-espn-nba-rankings-stats-2017-demar-derozan-si/ujsr9k3249of1fdnt3og4cecc

The sheer disrespect for Melo is absurd right now by some of these media outlets.. That's just pathetic. They had Wade at like 90, too. What!

Lakers + Giants
09-12-2017, 05:07 PM
Lmfao. Damn. Don't worry. Lavar probably did the rankings

GiantsSwaGG
09-12-2017, 05:10 PM
He's ranked too high

tredigs
09-12-2017, 05:17 PM
Why is Melo's ESPN ranking such a big deal every year? It's 2017. Carmelo is not an elite player by any stretch of the imagination. Is the mid 30 year old one-dimensional inefficient scorer who hasn't been to the playoffs in half a decade top 25 to you? Lol? The funny thing is he always proves his low-ish ranking to be correct, or an overstatement.

THE MTL
09-12-2017, 05:31 PM
Just lost all credibility. I mean you can't be serious with these rankings. Covington, Bradley, Ball, Danny Green, Gordon all better than Melo??

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 05:31 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/carmelo-anthony-news-espn-nba-rankings-stats-2017-demar-derozan-si/ujsr9k3249of1fdnt3og4cecc

The sheer disrespect for Melo is absurd right now by some of these media outlets.. That's just pathetic. They had Wade at like 90, too. What!

Actually Wade didn't make the top 100, every ESPN list is terrible though. It's every year and their all time list is garbage too. There's not near 100 players better than Wade in the league.

FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 05:34 PM
Just lost all credibility. I mean you can't be serious with these rankings. Covington, Bradley, Ball, Danny Green, Gordon all better than Melo??

I'll take Bradley over Melo if he's healthy but everyone else is just laughable. I mean, Danny Green is literally a 3&D guy who plays best off the bench and Ball has potential but it seems they are already misguided on where to judge him. Covington.. lol, dude is just a defender at this point.

FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 05:34 PM
Actually Wade didn't make the top 100, every ESPN list is terrible though. It's every year and their all time list is garbage too. There's not near 100 players better than Wade in the league.

My bad, on Sports Illustrated, Wade is like 90th. He's like two spots ahead of robin Lopez.. HAHA

LaVar Ball
09-12-2017, 05:35 PM
Lmfao. Damn. Don't worry. Lavar probably did the rankings

No I didn't!

LaVar Ball
09-12-2017, 05:36 PM
Why is Melo's ESPN ranking such a big deal every year? It's 2017. Carmelo is not an elite player by any stretch of the imagination. Is the mid 30 year old one-dimensional inefficient scorer who hasn't been to the playoffs in half a decade top 25 to you? Lol? The funny thing is he always proves his low-ish ranking to be correct, or an overstatement.

This basically sums it up. Dude doesn't make his teammates better, plays with zero heart and intelligence, doesn't play an defense, and is an inefficient chucker and ball stopper.

FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 05:37 PM
This basically sums it up. Dude doesn't make his teammates better, plays with zero heart and intelligence, doesn't play an defense, and is an inefficient chucker and ball stopper.

All that being said, he's still much better than Danny Green and Robert Covington - which automatically makes ESPN's list a gigantic joke.

LaVar Ball
09-12-2017, 05:40 PM
All that being said, he's still much better than Danny Green and Robert Covington - which automatically makes ESPN's list a gigantic joke.

Honestly, I actually think at this point of each of their careers, Danny Green brings more intangibles to the table. Better shooter, better defender, moves the ball to the open guy, doesn't force anything in Pop's system, is highly intelligent. Everything that Carmelo isn't.

hugepatsfan
09-12-2017, 05:42 PM
Melo isn't good enough to be a volume scorer on a good team and that's all he brings skill set wise. He'd beat guys like Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Covington, etc. one on one but those guys do more tonhelpbteams won.

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 05:45 PM
Advanced stats help in some areas but imo have ruined the way players are viewed. It shows so much on lists like these, literally every list and I can't tell you the amount of terrible takes I see from NBA reporters on twitter.

Most recent terrible takes:

JR Smth is better than Devin Booker because he has a higher VORP

Jokic is a top 10 player in the league.

Comparing Jokic advanced stats to LeBron and Jordan's their first 2 years in the league to try and show Jokic is or will be on that level.

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 05:45 PM
My bad, on Sports Illustrated, Wade is like 90th. He's like two spots ahead of robin Lopez.. HAHA

Lmao well SI lost all credibility too.

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 05:46 PM
Melo isn't good enough to be a volume scorer on a good team and that's all he brings skill set wise. He'd beat guys like Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Covington, etc. one on one but those guys do more tonhelpbteams won.

If you swap Melo with any of those players their teams get better. Put him in their roles and he would be pretty efficient.

FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 06:15 PM
Melo isn't good enough to be a volume scorer on a good team and that's all he brings skill set wise. He'd beat guys like Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Covington, etc. one on one but those guys do more tonhelpbteams won.

Lmao, no they don't. What you mean is, those guys aren't 1st option players so their only other role is to 3&D. Having Melo on the court is more valuable than any of those guys you just mentioned. The narrative Melo doesn't have any skills to help a team win is a disgusting rumor. It's funny because if Melo goes to the Rockets or Cavs, they are both significantly better teams. Yet, we're supposed to believe Melo is just a scorer and negative value player? Stop it, man. If Celtics had Melo, they would probably be favorites to win the East. He's not someone who can lead a team as the 1st option but as a 3rd option on a championship team? You won't find more than 20 people better.

GREATNESS ONE
09-12-2017, 07:03 PM
Lonzo will be top 20 after this year.

Jamiecballer
09-12-2017, 07:12 PM
Melo is getting big time overrated here

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ManRam
09-12-2017, 07:36 PM
I can't really feign outrage over any list like this. While I agree that there are some players I wouldn't have ahead of Melo, I think he's in the right realm. He's not a #1 player. He's probably not a #2 option. He's a #3 (what he'd be on Houston). The 64th ranked player is like top-15% in the league. That's a 3rd option, fringe #2. It feels fine.

But people whine about his rankings every year and every year it seems pretty justified in the end.

Sadds The Gr8
09-12-2017, 07:48 PM
I can't really feign outrage over any list like this. While I agree that there are some players I wouldn't have ahead of Melo, I think he's in the right realm. He's not a #1 player. He's probably not a #2 option. He's a #3 (what he'd be on Houston). The 64th ranked player is like top-15% in the league. That's a 3rd option, fringe #2. It feels fine.

But people whine about his rankings every year and every year it seems pretty justified in the end.

yup. remember that kobe one every *****ed about like 4 yrs ago and he ended up being super washed?

Cal827
09-12-2017, 08:15 PM
:laugh2: Wade bordering around 100, Melo at 64, Derozan at 36.... these rankings are hilariously bad..

I think Melo is overrated, but 64 is pretty damn low... and how he **** does an unproven rookie end up ahead of Wade? Wade still put up pretty solid numbers last year and is still a borderline all star.

I would've prefered Lavar Ball make the rankings :D

FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 08:33 PM
I can't really feign outrage over any list like this. While I agree that there are some players I wouldn't have ahead of Melo, I think he's in the right realm. He's not a #1 player. He's probably not a #2 option. He's a #3 (what he'd be on Houston). The 64th ranked player is like top-15% in the league. That's a 3rd option, fringe #2. It feels fine.

But people whine about his rankings every year and every year it seems pretty justified in the end.

Kevin Love was a third option. So was Draymond Green. In a league in which there are so many stacked teams, being a 3rd option on a championship team is still a high quality player. Isn't/wasn't Klay a third option last season for the Warriors? It's criminal to put Melo down this low. He's a top 10% player in the league, easily.

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 08:49 PM
I feel like I would have a very hard time naming even 40 players better than Melo or Wade.

mrblisterdundee
09-12-2017, 09:49 PM
I think it was a pretty harsh ranking. If traded to a contender, Anthony would probably be the second-best third option in league after Klay, and think of how high he will go. Part of the issue is Anthony needing to play power forward full-time. He's too damn old and slow to be a small forward in today's NBA.
But he would kill as a small-ball power forward in Houston. I'd argue that he still has similar value to a guy like Beal.

Jeffy25
09-12-2017, 09:51 PM
Every single year ESPN surprises us with their extreme stupidity with their rankings. Why even have the thread every year at this point?

Hawkeye15
09-12-2017, 09:59 PM
I would take a ton of guys over Melo for this year. Why is anyone *****ing about a has been, overrated chucker? Modern day Nique declined by 33. Oh well

FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 10:00 PM
I would take a ton of guys over Melo for this year. Why is anyone *****ing about a has been, overrated chucker? Was Nique elite at 33? Same ****

Cause there aren't 63 players better than him. if you think otherwise, make a list.

Hawkeye15
09-12-2017, 10:02 PM
Cause there aren't 63 players better than him. if you think otherwise, make a list.

There are 60 guys who help win more. In a vaccum Melo has always been good. But he is the definition of a stats guy that doesn't do **** to help win.

JordansBulls
09-12-2017, 10:04 PM
Melo should be top 10 in the league.

FlashBolt
09-12-2017, 10:13 PM
There are 60 guys who help win more. In a vaccum Melo has always been good. But he is the definition of a stats guy that doesn't do **** to help win.

That isn't really the criteria they are going by.

mrblisterdundee
09-12-2017, 10:17 PM
I would take a ton of guys over Melo for this year. Why is anyone *****ing about a has been, overrated chucker? Modern day Nique declined by 33. Oh well

Wilkins was scoring nearly 30 points per 36 minutes and shooting 38 percent from three, along with 6.6 rebounds and three assists per game, at age 33. I don't think Anthony will or should get the same usage or score that much in his proper role a really good third option but he's still pretty good. I could see him topping 40 percent from three and scoring 20 to 23 points per game as a third option in Houston or Portland.
This is coming from a non-Anthony fan who doesn't want him on the Blazers.

ManRam
09-12-2017, 10:23 PM
Kevin Love was a third option. So was Draymond Green. In a league in which there are so many stacked teams, being a 3rd option on a championship team is still a high quality player. Isn't/wasn't Klay a third option last season for the Warriors? It's criminal to put Melo down this low. He's a top 10% player in the league, easily.

Those are extreme examples. And love and Draymond are far superior players.

If Melo is your first option your team isn't making the playoffs.
If Melo is your second option, well, depends on who the #1 guy is. Plenty of better #2s.
If Melo is your third option you're doing pretty good.

:shrug:

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 10:34 PM
There are 60 guys who help win more. In a vaccum Melo has always been good. But he is the definition of a stats guy that doesn't do **** to help win.

No there aren't.

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 10:35 PM
Those are extreme examples. And love and Draymond are far superior players.

If Melo is your first option your team isn't making the playoffs.
If Melo is your second option, well, depends on who the #1 guy is. Plenty of better #2s.
If Melo is your third option you're doing pretty good.

:shrug:

I wouldn't say Love is far superior by any means. He may or may not be better but it's not by much.

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 10:46 PM
Melo should be top 10 in the league.

What's your top 10 in order?

5ass
09-12-2017, 11:04 PM
Lonzo will be the worst starting PG in the NBA next season IMO, but theyre just looking for clicks. Lakers fans will be happy.

WaDe03
09-12-2017, 11:25 PM
Lonzo will be the worst starting PG in the NBA next season IMO, but theyre just looking for clicks. Lakers fans will be happy.

Worse than Kris Dunn or Jerian Grant?

Chronz
09-12-2017, 11:39 PM
Should dion waiters rank higher?

GREATNESS ONE
09-12-2017, 11:43 PM
Lonzo will be the worst starting PG in the NBA next season IMO, but theyre just looking for clicks. Lakers fans will be happy.

Lolz

5ass
09-12-2017, 11:56 PM
Worse than Kris Dunn or Jerian Grant?

Nope, probably not. You have the Knicks with Ntilikina too. I guess third or so worst. Most likely bottom 5 PG IMO.

FlashBolt
09-13-2017, 12:04 AM
Those are extreme examples. And love and Draymond are far superior players.

If Melo is your first option your team isn't making the playoffs.
If Melo is your second option, well, depends on who the #1 guy is. Plenty of better #2s.
If Melo is your third option you're doing pretty good.

:shrug:

Love is not superior to Melo.

JordansBulls
09-13-2017, 12:34 AM
What's your top 10 in order?

Melo is in the top 10.

mrblisterdundee
09-13-2017, 12:40 AM
Lonzo will be the worst starting PG in the NBA next season IMO, but theyre just looking for clicks. Lakers fans will be happy.

Starting point guards who likely won't be as prolific/good as Ball:

Kris Dunn
Frank Nkilitina
Elfrid Payton
Dejounte Murray
Jameer Nelson/Jamal Murray
Darren Collison/Lance Stephenson
Derrick Rose
Reggie Jackson

Sadds The Gr8
09-13-2017, 12:45 AM
Melo is in the top 10.

:facepalm:

rhino17
09-13-2017, 01:42 AM
Melo is better than some of those guys, but the ranking is not that outlandish. 50-70 seems about right to me.

jaydubb
09-13-2017, 04:14 AM
Seems about right

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Heediot
09-13-2017, 08:35 AM
As much as I don't like his game, is Derozan really 39th best?

TheDish87
09-13-2017, 08:46 AM
All that being said, he's still much better than Danny Green and Robert Covington - which automatically makes ESPN's list a gigantic joke.

to be fair Covs D is as good/impactful as Melos O. that said i still find that ranking off. Im not a Melo guy at all but he should prob be closer to 40-45ish

Hawkeye15
09-13-2017, 08:59 AM
That isn't really the criteria they are going by.

my criteria buddy :)

Hawkeye15
09-13-2017, 09:00 AM
Wilkins was scoring nearly 30 points per 36 minutes and shooting 38 percent from three, along with 6.6 rebounds and three assists per game, at age 33. I don't think Anthony will or should get the same usage or score that much in his proper role a really good third option but he's still pretty good. I could see him topping 40 percent from three and scoring 20 to 23 points per game as a third option in Houston or Portland.
This is coming from a non-Anthony fan who doesn't want him on the Blazers.

yep, I edited it. He is the modern Nique, he just gave up caring by 30.

Melo isn't trash, but the problem is, he likely still thinks he is a core piece to a great team, which is far from the case.

WaDe03
09-13-2017, 09:14 AM
Melo is in the top 10.

Ok but that wasn't the question.

Vinylman
09-13-2017, 09:20 AM
people are such sheep ... these lists are created to create controversy so they have something to talk about on that putrid network...

don't take the bait.

Anyone who doesn't think it was intentional to rank those two side by side will never understand marketing

hugepatsfan
09-13-2017, 09:29 AM
Lmao, no they don't. What you mean is, those guys aren't 1st option players so their only other role is to 3&D. Having Melo on the court is more valuable than any of those guys you just mentioned. The narrative Melo doesn't have any skills to help a team win is a disgusting rumor. It's funny because if Melo goes to the Rockets or Cavs, they are both significantly better teams. Yet, we're supposed to believe Melo is just a scorer and negative value player? Stop it, man. If Celtics had Melo, they would probably be favorites to win the East. He's not someone who can lead a team as the 1st option but as a 3rd option on a championship team? You won't find more than 20 people better.

Is an inefficient, volume scorer who thrives off of ISOs run for him really a championship caliber 3rd option though? I don't think Melo's game really fits into that mold is my point. Like you said, he's not good enough to be a #1 or even a #2 option but his game basically necessitates him being that. And once you get past your top offensive threats do you really want a guy who contributes nothing else besides scoring? If you're not a top 1 or 2 offensive threat I don't think you really want an all-offense guy if on that end he's just a supporting player.

I just don't see how Melo fits into a championship winning puzzle. He's not good enough to be a top offensive threat on a team that wins because he's too inefficient. His offensive game doesn't fit a supporting role. And then he's a negative in basically every other facet of the game.

JasonJohnHorn
09-13-2017, 09:35 AM
I don't know if I could list 60 guys who are better than Melo, but I could list 100 guys I'd rather have on my team.

Heediot
09-13-2017, 09:38 AM
people are such sheep ... these lists are created to create controversy so they have something to talk about on that putrid network...

don't take the bait.

Anyone who doesn't think it was intentional to rank those two side by side will never understand marketing

True say. I did take the DD bait, maybe they are trying to rile up the Canadian readers with that one.

Heediot
09-13-2017, 09:40 AM
Y'all sleepiong on Melo. Like Kyrie I don't think he is an ideal number 1 on a championship team, but he's the type of guy that can put you over the top. Coaches and defenses still game plan and account hard for a guy like him, I don't care what the advanced stats say.

WaDe03
09-13-2017, 10:00 AM
Is an inefficient, volume scorer who thrives off of ISOs run for him really a championship caliber 3rd option though? I don't think Melo's game really fits into that mold is my point. Like you said, he's not good enough to be a #1 or even a #2 option but his game basically necessitates him being that. And once you get past your top offensive threats do you really want a guy who contributes nothing else besides scoring? If you're not a top 1 or 2 offensive threat I don't think you really want an all-offense guy if on that end he's just a supporting player.

I just don't see how Melo fits into a championship winning puzzle. He's not good enough to be a top offensive threat on a team that wins because he's too inefficient. His offensive game doesn't fit a supporting role. And then he's a negative in basically every other facet of the game.


Team USA Melo is pretty damn good so I disagree. He would be good as a 3rd option.

kdspurman
09-13-2017, 10:20 AM
people are such sheep ... these lists are created to create controversy so they have something to talk about on that putrid network...

don't take the bait.

Anyone who doesn't think it was intentional to rank those two side by side will never understand marketing

Yup, pretty much this.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2017, 10:38 AM
people are such sheep ... these lists are created to create controversy so they have something to talk about on that putrid network...

don't take the bait.

Anyone who doesn't think it was intentional to rank those two side by side will never understand marketing

You mean the guys who wrote the article didn't spend hours researching who should be ranked #454, versus #453?

Vee-Rex
09-13-2017, 11:09 AM
Melo should be top 10 in the league.

Yep.

My top 10 in order:

1. LeBron
2. Kawhi
3. CP3
4. Westbrook
5. Harden
6. Davis
7. Wade
8. Melo
9. Cousins
10. George

Then you got guys like Butler, Giannis, Gobert, Griffin, Irving, etc.. to fill out the rest.

***

Vee-Rex
09-13-2017, 11:09 AM
***j/k :laugh2:

colinskik
09-13-2017, 11:24 AM
If you look at the parts of the list that have been released, their rankings are pretty laughable. Clearly it's a ploy by ESPN to get clicks and stir up controversy so they have something to talk about over there.

Here are some that I plucked out cause they made me laugh in comparison to Melo. (Mind you, I've been critical of Melo and am very aware of this deficiencies.)


#62 Eric Gordon -- bench player and almost always injured except for last year, on a team that's tailor made for shooters
#60 Devin Booker -- he's a young mold of Melo who hasn't reached that level yet, same flaws to his game as well (defense)
#58 Harrison Barnes -- no way
#54 Gallo -- really? try staying on the court for a full season
#53 Drummond -- jokes ... hit a free throw and then we'll talk
#48 Ricky RUbio -- great passer, but for a facilitator who is supposed to make his teammates better, his team has always been bad
#43 Iggy -- bench player in an ideal situation. not taking anything away from him, but could he still be a starter on another NBA team?

If ESPN were to defend this list, it seems like they're putting more weight in potential than actual production. I'm sorry, but rookies have to prove their worth in the NBA before being listed above future HOFers. Also, is team success indicative of a player's talent? If Melo were on the W's how high would he be ranked?

Vinylman
09-13-2017, 11:41 AM
You mean the guys who wrote the article didn't spend hours researching who should be ranked #454, versus #453?

nah... they leave that up to the AS guys on PSD... pretty sure I could name names but I will show some restraint lol

DanG
09-13-2017, 11:42 AM
Obviously this was a cheap *** marketing trick to get these sports shows a topic to talk about. There's nothing to talk about right now because the pre-season is still weeks away. Like please #38 Jae Crowder #39 DeMar DeRozan.

Melo is still a top 30 player.

Bostonjorge
09-13-2017, 01:51 PM
Obviously this was a cheap *** marketing trick to get these sports shows a topic to talk about. There's nothing to talk about right now because the pre-season is still weeks away. Like please #38 Jae Crowder #39 DeMar DeRozan.

Melo is still a top 30 player.

Crowder is finally getting the respect he's earned with his hustle plays.

WaDe03
09-13-2017, 01:59 PM
Yep.

My top 10 in order:

1. LeBron
2. Kawhi
3. CP3
4. Westbrook
5. Harden
6. Davis
7. Wade
8. Melo
9. Cousins
10. George

Then you got guys like Butler, Giannis, Gobert, Griffin, Irving, etc.. to fill out the rest.

***

I like this list. I would probably put Wade at 1 and have everyone else move down a spot and would put Jimmy in Cousins spot, other than that great job!

WaDe03
09-13-2017, 01:59 PM
Crowder is finally getting the respect he's earned with his hustle plays.

And that's nice, he's definitely a tough solid player but he's not better than Derozan.

Jamiecballer
09-13-2017, 02:33 PM
That isn't really the criteria they are going by.Is that what they say? Because that begs the question why the heck not.

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Jamiecballer
09-13-2017, 02:37 PM
people are such sheep ... these lists are created to create controversy so they have something to talk about on that putrid network...

don't take the bait.

Anyone who doesn't think it was intentional to rank those two side by side will never understand marketingI can buy that. Like maybe they had Melo at 61 and Ball at 66 and were like let's change them to 63/64.

I don't believe you actually implying something larger than that


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Driven
09-13-2017, 03:03 PM
Melo should be top 10 in the league.

I thought that this was great...


Melo is in the top 10.

But I thought that this was greater

Driven
09-13-2017, 03:04 PM
I like Melo, and think that he's stangely overrated by the media and underrated by general fans. Although this article would show otherwise, I guess.

Melo is not top 10. He's also not #63. Honestly, he's probably somewhere right in the middle.

aman_13
09-13-2017, 03:34 PM
Crowder is finally getting the respect he's earned with his hustle plays.

Lol

elledaddy
09-13-2017, 03:46 PM
Smh, a shame.

WaDe03
09-13-2017, 04:44 PM
Just looked at the list through 31, so disrespectful lol. Pure garbage.

HeartOfStarks
09-13-2017, 05:49 PM
Just looked at the list through 31, so disrespectful lol. Pure garbage.

All Melo has to do is play 25 games a season like Embiid does and he can be 32nd.

HeartOfStarks
09-13-2017, 05:50 PM
I mean seriously I pick apart Melo's game as much as anyone, and there is a LOT to pick apart, but this list is a joke. ESPN might as well be Bleacher Report at this point

WaDe03
09-13-2017, 06:18 PM
I mean seriously I pick apart Melo's game as much as anyone, and there is a LOT to pick apart, but this list is a joke. ESPN might as well be Bleacher Report at this point

Bleacher report is by far the worst lol. They're all garbage at this point though advanced stats have ruined the way the game is viewed.

WaDe03
09-13-2017, 06:19 PM
All Melo has to do is play 25 games a season like Embiid does and he can be 32nd.

That's true lol I need him to bust his *** for half the season and then stop playing. That will probably get him in the top 15.

YAALREADYKNO
09-13-2017, 06:37 PM
Everytime espn does rankings it's always whack

5ass
09-13-2017, 10:36 PM
Starting point guards who likely won't be as prolific/good as Ball:

Kris Dunn
Frank Nkilitina
Elfrid Payton
Dejounte Murray
Jameer Nelson/Jamal Murray
Darren Collison/Lance Stephenson
Derrick Rose
Reggie Jackson

i mentioned kris dunn and Frank. Payton wasnt that bad last year. He actually closed out the season well. After trading Ibaka and giving him more spacing, and upping the pace, he averaged like 13-8-7 on 50%FG in the last 25 games. Like i said, i expect Ball to be terrible next season. It doesnt mean that he will bust, PGs are going to take time to develop. His raw stats might look good because im sure the Lakers will have the ball in his hands a lot, but not going to win you as many games as he loses you.

i dont think Murray is going to start for SA, is he? they just signed Mills and Parker.
Nelson is pretty bad. Murray should take over the starting spot, but you're right he wont be good. So yeah add one more.
Collison is solid.
Rose will start until thomas comes back.
Jackson when healthy isnt that bad.

So yeah most likely bottom 5 IMO

LA4life24/8
09-13-2017, 10:52 PM
This list is crazy absurd lol. Melo gettin no love

FlashBolt
09-14-2017, 12:39 AM
Some of you guys hate Melo and deservingly view him as a high volume shooter who lacks leadership, defense, and heart. You're right. But the guy is not the 64th best player in the NBA.. he's much higher than that. He was stuck on a putrid team with a lack of direction. Noah can't stay healthy and their third best player is Hernangomez. I stated it before, if Melo is on some of these teams trying to climb past the Warriors such as Pelicans, Houston, Cavs, Portland, or Celtics, he could make a huge difference. That's not something the 64th best player should be able to do. If he came to OKC, I would be ecstatic. He's undeserving of a first option role and I think he realizes that. He's a third option player on a championship contender.

Someone said advanced statistics is ruining things. I disagree. It's the misinterpretation of those stats that ruin it. Some of these guys would say, "LeBron has a PER of 27 so he is 2x better than someone who has a PER of 13." They're clueless... but I do believe advanced stats has changed the game to where most teams are adjusting their style of play to be the most efficient they can be.

More-Than-Most
09-14-2017, 03:36 AM
Some of you guys hate Melo and deservingly view him as a high volume shooter who lacks leadership, defense, and heart. You're right. But the guy is not the 64th best player in the NBA.. he's much higher than that. He was stuck on a putrid team with a lack of direction. Noah can't stay healthy and their third best player is Hernangomez. I stated it before, if Melo is on some of these teams trying to climb past the Warriors such as Pelicans, Houston, Cavs, Portland, or Celtics, he could make a huge difference. That's not something the 64th best player should be able to do. If he came to OKC, I would be ecstatic. He's undeserving of a first option role and I think he realizes that. He's a third option player on a championship contender.

Someone said advanced statistics is ruining things. I disagree. It's the misinterpretation of those stats that ruin it. Some of these guys would say, "LeBron has a PER of 27 so he is 2x better than someone who has a PER of 13." They're clueless... but I do believe advanced stats has changed the game to where most teams are adjusting their style of play to be the most efficient they can be.

If Embiid could stay healthy he would be number so and so
If Butler had help last year he would be number so and so
If Curry were on the Nets he wouldnt be Number so and so

How come we always take the facts we have for just about every other player but when it comes to Melo its he would do this and he would do that and if he played defense he would be here and if he had help he would be there.... He has become a lazy streaking player who has always been overrated and now is quite frankly not even a top 50 player... He is always mad and some kind of ranking and we always make excuses for why he is where he is and why he should be mad but he should stop complaining and go back to the Melp who gave a **** on both ends of the floor.

FlashBolt
09-14-2017, 04:24 AM
If Embiid could stay healthy he would be number so and so
If Butler had help last year he would be number so and so
If Curry were on the Nets he wouldnt be Number so and so

How come we always take the facts we have for just about every other player but when it comes to Melo its he would do this and he would do that and if he played defense he would be here and if he had help he would be there.... He has become a lazy streaking player who has always been overrated and now is quite frankly not even a top 50 player... He is always mad and some kind of ranking and we always make excuses for why he is where he is and why he should be mad but he should stop complaining and go back to the Melp who gave a **** on both ends of the floor.

Who said anything about him playing defense? He's not a 1st option player so it only makes sense that he could impact the game more efficiently as a third option. None of what you said validates anything. Melo makes your team better if he is used accordingly. Knicks tried to build him as a 1st option player and instead of trading him away or finding a better player, they kept resigning him hoping Melo would change.

More-Than-Most
09-14-2017, 05:05 AM
Who said anything about him playing defense? He's not a 1st option player so it only makes sense that he could impact the game more efficiently as a third option. None of what you said validates anything. Melo makes your team better if he is used accordingly. Knicks tried to build him as a 1st option player and instead of trading him away or finding a better player, they kept resigning him hoping Melo would change.

Every player makes a team better if they are used accordingly and to their strengths... Melo takes offense like people on here do because he and they think he is a top 25 player... Top 25 players make their teams better because their skill sets can be used nomatter the situation.... I wont say there is 60 plus players better than melo but I would take 45 plus guys over him... I do agree melo shouldnt be a first option and the knicks dont bring out the best in him but even if he is in the perfect situation he still would find a way to play under peoples expectations and have excuses made for him. Hes not that good anymore :shrug:

WaDe03
09-14-2017, 09:19 AM
Some of you guys hate Melo and deservingly view him as a high volume shooter who lacks leadership, defense, and heart. You're right. But the guy is not the 64th best player in the NBA.. he's much higher than that. He was stuck on a putrid team with a lack of direction. Noah can't stay healthy and their third best player is Hernangomez. I stated it before, if Melo is on some of these teams trying to climb past the Warriors such as Pelicans, Houston, Cavs, Portland, or Celtics, he could make a huge difference. That's not something the 64th best player should be able to do. If he came to OKC, I would be ecstatic. He's undeserving of a first option role and I think he realizes that. He's a third option player on a championship contender.

Someone said advanced statistics is ruining things. I disagree. It's the misinterpretation of those stats that ruin it. Some of these guys would say, "LeBron has a PER of 27 so he is 2x better than someone who has a PER of 13." They're clueless... but I do believe advanced stats has changed the game to where most teams are adjusting their style of play to be the most efficient they can be.

Advanced stats are the reason Melo is 64th and why people in this world think Middleton is better or think Patrick Patterson is at least 25 spots better than Wade.

WaDe03
09-14-2017, 10:50 AM
Y'all make sure to give 11-30 a look today, there's definitely some head scratchers in there.

Kyrie at 25
Kristaps at 22
Gobert ahead of Wall

KnicksorBust
09-14-2017, 11:46 AM
Is an inefficient, volume scorer who thrives off of ISOs run for him really a championship caliber 3rd option though? I don't think Melo's game really fits into that mold is my point. Like you said, he's not good enough to be a #1 or even a #2 option but his game basically necessitates him being that. And once you get past your top offensive threats do you really want a guy who contributes nothing else besides scoring? If you're not a top 1 or 2 offensive threat I don't think you really want an all-offense guy if on that end he's just a supporting player.

I just don't see how Melo fits into a championship winning puzzle. He's not good enough to be a top offensive threat on a team that wins because he's too inefficient. His offensive game doesn't fit a supporting role. And then he's a negative in basically every other facet of the game.

I'm assuming you just mean now. At his peak I do think Melo could have been the #1 option on a DEEP balanced team. His scoring ability was elite. Now he needs to go to Houston. I actually think he would thrive there. When he had great PGs like Billups or Iverson his game only got better. When he has Raymond Felton-Jose Calderon-Jerian Grant-Derrick Rose then he's ALL iso and he becomes so much worse from an efficiency stand-point. The fact is he can shoot so playing off the ball with a stud point guard like Chris Paul or James Harden he would score less but his percentages would shoot up. Plus, and this is part compliment/part insult, I do think as a 3rd option in a playoff series he would be a much better defender than as a 1st option on a bad team during the regular season.

KnicksorBust
09-14-2017, 11:49 AM
As the certified idiot with Melo in his avatar I'm not outraged. I think Melo is ranked incorrectly but the days of him being a top 30 player are long gone. Maybe I could debate him back into the top 50 but even that is questionable. Not worth the outrage imo. Fun to debate? Yes. But I'm not losing sleep over picking and choosing to try and find 15 guys that he should be ranked above.

Vee-Rex
09-14-2017, 12:09 PM
As the certified idiot with Melo in his avatar I'm not outraged. I think Melo is ranked incorrectly but the days of him being a top 30 player are long gone. Maybe I could debate him back into the top 50 but even that is questionable. Not worth the outrage imo. Fun to debate? Yes. But I'm not losing sleep over picking and choosing to try and find 15 guys that he should be ranked above.

I think 64 is rough for Melo. I'd put him at 50-55'ish (I know some don't really like it).

I mean, advanced stats opened things up and allowed us to see the kind of impact guys would have that isn't easily seen through the eye test. They're pretty wonderful. But pure talent is needed to succeed in the NBA, and guys like Danny Green and RoCo and Lonzo (even though he never played a game yet) being above Melo is kinda bad, IMO.

Glue-like guys that help keep the team afloat are spectacular, but they are completely dependent on the more talented players to carry the team. Swap Melo with RoCo and the Knicks are worse. Swap Melo with Danny Green and and they're worse.

I agree with Flash that the interpretation of advanced stats are really poor and lead people to draw bad conclusions.

FlashBolt
09-14-2017, 12:14 PM
Every player makes a team better if they are used accordingly and to their strengths... Melo takes offense like people on here do because he and they think he is a top 25 player... Top 25 players make their teams better because their skill sets can be used nomatter the situation.... I wont say there is 60 plus players better than melo but I would take 45 plus guys over him... I do agree melo shouldnt be a first option and the knicks dont bring out the best in him but even if he is in the perfect situation he still would find a way to play under peoples expectations and have excuses made for him. Hes not that good anymore :shrug:

Not a single person made a case that Melo is a top 25 player. Top 40-50 is proper but 64 and behind Lonzo is an absolute joke. The disrespect Melo has been getting is getting to a point where putting everything aside, there is no way he still isn't useful as a player. Not sure why some of you guys are expecting anything else. I expect someone to score 20 PPG and have the ability to be a force on the offensive end. If Cavs got him, do you know how much more firepower they would have against the Warriors? Are you telling me Melo+LeBron wouldn't be relevant?

Vinylman
09-14-2017, 12:39 PM
I think 64 is rough for Melo. I'd put him at 50-55'ish (I know some don't really like it).

I mean, advanced stats opened things up and allowed us to see the kind of impact guys would have that isn't easily seen through the eye test. They're pretty wonderful. But pure talent is needed to succeed in the NBA, and guys like Danny Green and RoCo and Lonzo (even though he never played a game yet) being above Melo is kinda bad, IMO.

Glue-like guys that help keep the team afloat are spectacular, but they are completely dependent on the more talented players to carry the team. Swap Melo with RoCo and the Knicks are worse. Swap Melo with Danny Green and and they're worse.

I agree with Flash that the interpretation of advanced stats are really poor and lead people to draw bad conclusions.

In terms of what he can do for a contender... he is higher than 50-55... I have him in the low 40s at worse...

As for the Advance Stats (AS) analysis you are spot on... when teams scheme against the knicks... their primary focus is melo... those other guys ahead of him aren't the focus of any game planning... AS can't factor that into their metrics because there is no ACCURATE way of measuring it.

the most glaring indictment of AS is when a glue guy or role player gets a big deal in FA and has to become a primary contributor and falls on his face ... it happens every year and people are surprised because they don't realize that the game is easy for them when surrounded by great players...

there is a reason so many teams covet Melo... that's because they understand his value

tredigs
09-15-2017, 02:28 AM
In terms of what he can do for a contender... he is higher than 50-55... I have him in the low 40s at worse...

As for the Advance Stats (AS) analysis you are spot on... when teams scheme against the knicks... their primary focus is melo... those other guys ahead of him aren't the focus of any game planning... AS can't factor that into their metrics because there is no ACCURATE way of measuring it.

the most glaring indictment of AS is when a glue guy or role player gets a big deal in FA and has to become a primary contributor and falls on his face ... it happens every year and people are surprised because they don't realize that the game is easy for them when surrounded by great players...

there is a reason so many teams covet Melo... that's because they understand his value

Lmfao. How many teams covet Melo to give up anything of value? None. Think it through.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2017, 03:18 AM
Lmfao. How many teams covet Melo to give up anything of value? None. Think it through.

I am trying to understand it as well... The knicks are trying their hardest to get rid of him... Some will take him but they wont be parting with **** so where is their teams coveting him? I cant figure out why this dude is always rated higher than he is... On top of it its the same thing every year... Some sports thing puts melo where he belongs... Melo erupts with anger and or laughs at how stupid he thinks it is.. Fans cry... The season goes on and Melo is meh and its rinse/repeat in the off season with excuses being mad constantly.

More-Than-Most
09-15-2017, 03:21 AM
by the end of his career Melo will end up as this decades Iverson but with size.. One way player who people always assumed greatness but is far overvalued because he can score and the rest of the game and the selfish play gets ignored. People say well he is what other teams try to stop.... YOU KNOW HOW HE CAN HELP HIMSELF WITH THAT... PASS THE ****ING BALL... 2-4 assists for a dude with his ability in a scoring/passing league is utterly moronic... he takes a back seat to nobody... Harden/Durant/Lebron/CP3/Curry/Kobe/IVERSON etc etc etc... They can pass or score and do both extremely well and makes players around them that much better... Melo has never added that to his game. A player of his caliber should not be dishing out 4 assists a game year after year in his ****ing prime and people then complain how he needs help... You know how many times I watched a knicks game last year and he just flat out refused to pass the ball to porz when he was hot

Vinylman
09-15-2017, 05:58 AM
Lmfao. How many teams covet Melo to give up anything of value? None. Think it through.

not surprising that a dubs fan wouldn't understand the point... trade rules have nothing to do with a players on court value which is why he is still a knick... between his NTC and current salary a trade is untenable ... that has nothing to do with his value as a player...

like I said ... not surprised you don't get it...

TheDish87
09-15-2017, 08:40 AM
by the end of his career Melo will end up as this decades Iverson but with size.. One way player who people always assumed greatness but is far overvalued because he can score and the rest of the game and the selfish play gets ignored. People say well he is what other teams try to stop.... YOU KNOW HOW HE CAN HELP HIMSELF WITH THAT... PASS THE ****ING BALL... 2-4 assists for a dude with his ability in a scoring/passing league is utterly moronic... he takes a back seat to nobody... Harden/Durant/Lebron/CP3/Curry/Kobe/IVERSON etc etc etc... They can pass or score and do both extremely well and makes players around them that much better... Melo has never added that to his game. A player of his caliber should not be dishing out 4 assists a game year after year in his ****ing prime and people then complain how he needs help... You know how many times I watched a knicks game last year and he just flat out refused to pass the ball to porz when he was hot

please do not put Melo and AI in the same breath, thats disrespectful.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 11:51 AM
not surprising that a dubs fan wouldn't understand the point... trade rules have nothing to do with a players on court value which is why he is still a knick... between his NTC and current salary a trade is untenable ... that has nothing to do with his value as a player...

like I said ... not surprised you don't get it...

Your mindless trolling aside, if he was a supreme talent that teams coveted, they would care less about the few million in salary he makes over a Harrison Barnes, Chandler Parsons, JJ Reddick, Steven Adams, etc etc. He's on a 1+1 and if that's a player you think can bring you a title, there are no shortage of teams that we would hear about going after him and convincing him to waive his NTC. It just is not the case. It's no surprise that a poster who spends all his time on the internet trolling a fanbase over-values the worth of an ever-overrated mid 30 year old no defense playing inefficient chucker in Melo. A stat like RPM has a tendency to overrate certain role-players in the right situation, but rarely if ever does it underrate the actual game changers. Coming in at 29th in RPM for small forwards last season, Carmelo Anthony. Hint: He is NOT a good player, and you are NOT a smart poster.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 11:55 AM
Draymond Green coming in at #10 on both the SI and ESPN rankings. 2-3 spots ahead of where I'd have him I think, but surprisingly accurate. They've done a good job in the past couple seasons of understanding what actually constitutes a winning player, and have proven able of separating the chuckers from the competition.

valade16
09-15-2017, 12:17 PM
Melo isn't coveted because of his contract, it has nothing to do with his talent. One need only look at how many NBA players who are actively recruiting him to play for their team. If he were on a more modest contract or didn't have a NTC, he'd be more valued.

Boston couldn't unload Al Horford on anyone if they wanted to and many fans are actively talking about waiting until his contract expires so they can sign someone else. That has nothing to do with his talent and everything to do with his albatross of a contract.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 12:25 PM
Melo isn't coveted because of his contract, it has nothing to do with his talent. One need only look at how many NBA players who are actively recruiting him to play for their team. If he were on a more modest contract or didn't have a NTC, he'd be more valued.

Boston couldn't unload Al Horford on anyone if they wanted to and many fans are actively talking about waiting until his contract expires so they can sign someone else. That has nothing to do with his talent and everything to do with his albatross of a contract.

It's a confluence of factors, and if Melo was a true game-changer, teams would look to pay for his 1+1 and actively seeked him out during all his NYK turmoil, it is as simple as that. He's proven to be a weak leader of a weak team, and his game dips every season as he's now in his mid 30's. That's simply not a player teams want, and for good reason. His NIKE buddies want him? Cool. Also meaningless. The stats and records don't lie, we know what Melo is, and it is certainly not a winning player at this point of his career. Horford's now into his 30's himself, has only above-average impact (worse in the playoffs... which in Melo's case we can't compare as he is never in the playoffs) and is paid more + on a longer contract then Melo. Of course other teams don't want him either.

Bottom line: Carmelo Anthony- not a sought after high impact player in 2017. The fact that this shocks some on here is pretty funny to me.

Heediot
09-15-2017, 12:34 PM
Bottom line: Carmelo Anthony- not a sought after high impact player in 2017. The fact that this shocks some on here is pretty funny to me.

Your acting like people are saying he is a top 10-20 player.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 12:35 PM
Your acting like people are saying he is a top 10-20 player.

No, I'm acting like he is not a top 50 impact player. Which - DING - he is not.

Enough Melo talk for one day from me though. Rather talk about players that actually matter than focus on the has beens.

Vinylman
09-15-2017, 12:45 PM
Your mindless trolling aside, if he was a supreme talent that teams coveted, they would care less about the few million in salary he makes over a Harrison Barnes, Chandler Parsons, JJ Reddick, Steven Adams, etc etc. He's on a 1+1 and if that's a player you think can bring you a title, there are no shortage of teams that we would hear about going after him and convincing him to waive his NTC. It just is not the case. It's no surprise that a poster who spends all his time on the internet trolling a fanbase over-values the worth of an ever-overrated mid 30 year old no defense playing inefficient chucker in Melo. A stat like RPM has a tendency to overrate certain role-players in the right situation, but rarely if ever does it underrate the actual game changers. Coming in at 29th in RPM for small forwards last season, Carmelo Anthony. Hint: He is NOT a good player, and you are NOT a smart poster.

LMFAO

truly clueless because you don't understand cause and effect...

Valade handled it so I won't waste my time repeating what he wrote.

The bolded is hilarious though... thought I would just highlight the stupidity of a comment like that.

valade16
09-15-2017, 12:50 PM
It's a confluence of factors, and if Melo was a true game-changer, teams would look to pay for his 1+1 and actively seeked him out during all his NYK turmoil, it is as simple as that. He's proven to be a weak leader of a weak team, and his game dips every season as he's now in his mid 30's. That's simply not a player teams want, and for good reason. His NIKE buddies want him? Cool. Also meaningless. The stats and records don't lie, we know what Melo is, and it is certainly not a winning player at this point of his career. Horford's now into his 30's himself, has only above-average impact (worse in the playoffs... which in Melo's case we can't compare as he is never in the playoffs) and is paid more + on a longer contract then Melo. Of course other teams don't want him either.

Bottom line: Carmelo Anthony- not a sought after high impact player in 2017. The fact that this shocks some on here is pretty funny to me.

Yes if he were a superstar or star player teams would pay whatever salary he has to get him. But nobody here is saying that.

It's really this simple: Carmelo Anthony isn't being traded because of his contract. Period, end of story. If he were on a vet minimum deal he would be signed by all 30 teams in the league in a heartbeat.

He currently has the 12th most expensive contract in the NBA. No one here is saying he's near the 12th best player.

Bottom line: Not a sought after player due to his contract. The fact that some can't understand that is pretty funny to me.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 12:54 PM
LMFAO

truly clueless because you don't understand cause and effect...

Valade handled it so I won't waste my time repeating what he wrote.

The bolded is hilarious though... thought I would just highlight the stupidity of a comment like that.

Yeah buddy - that guy out there putting up 22/5.9/2.9 on 43% from the field who no longer attacks the paint, doesn't play defense, and leads his 30 win teams every season is just out there CRUSHING it ay? If his box-score stats don't blow you away, surely his gutter-level RPM, -0.7 BPM, .089 WS/48 and 0.8 VORP will.

You. Are. Clueless. #classover

valade16
09-15-2017, 12:59 PM
Yeah buddy - that guy out there putting up 22/5.9/2.9 on 43% from the field who no longer attacks the paint, doesn't play defense, and leads his 30 win teams every season is just out there CRUSHING it ay? If his box-score stats don't blow you away, surely his gutter-level RPM, -0.7 BPM, .089 WS/48 and 0.8 VORP will.

You. Are. Clueless. #classover

So you concede that based Westbrook's superior box-score and advanced states that he is a better player than Steph Curry?

Vinylman
09-15-2017, 01:10 PM
Yeah buddy - that guy out there putting up 22/5.9/2.9 on 43% from the field who no longer attacks the paint, doesn't play defense, and leads his 30 win teams every season is just out there CRUSHING it ay? If his box-score stats don't blow you away, surely his gutter-level RPM, -0.7 BPM, .089 WS/48 and 0.8 VORP will.

You. Are. Clueless. #classover

wait... wait... I am tredigs... I have to change the subject because I can't follow basic logic...

watching you crash and burn is worth the price of admission

tredigs
09-15-2017, 01:12 PM
So you concede that based Westbrook's superior box-score and advanced states that he is a better player than Steph Curry?

Lol nice strawman. What I concede is that Carmelo is an objectively non +impact player at this stage of his career, and all stats point to that. Concerning your derail, Curry registered a better RPM, a higher WS/48 and obviously significantly better shooting percentages across the board. Defensively he was better across the board again as well. Lest not forget, Curry dominated in the post-season while Westbrook simply entered a new realm of chucking in his 5 game loss to the Rox. By and large obviously Westbrook had better reg season stats than Curry and Lebron and everyone else, and he IS great, but no not quite at their level. Meanwhile, in reality, Melo just sucks across the board and there is zero debate as to whether he is a high impact player or not.


wait... wait... I am tredigs... I have to change the subject because I can't follow basic logic...

watching you crash and burn is worth the price of admission

Oh trust me, watching you lean on Valade's weak strawman's as you struggle to put yourself back together is much more fun.

Vinylman
09-15-2017, 01:16 PM
there is a reason so many teams covet Melo... that's because they understand his value

This is what tredigs quoted .... how that comment has tredigs spiraling out of control is beyond hilarious

how that comment I made has turned into the tredigs current narrative is truly awe inspiring

valade16
09-15-2017, 01:18 PM
Lol nice strawman. What I concede is that Carmelo is an objectively non +impact player at this stage of his career, and all stats point to that. Concerning your derail, Curry registered a better RPM, a higher WS/48 and obviously significantly better shooting percentages across the board. Defensively he was better across the board again as well. Lest not forget, Curry dominated in the post-season while Westbrook simply entered a new realm of chucking in his 5 game loss to the Rox. By and large obviously Westbrook had better reg season stats than Curry and Lebron and everyone else, and he IS great, but no not quite at their level. Meanwhile, in reality, Melo just sucks across the board and there is zero debate as to whether he is a high impact player or not.

Oh trust me, watching you lean on Valade's weak strawman's as you struggle to put yourself back together is much more fun.

It is a strawman, I just wanted to see if out of context stats count for all things or only this one. Turns out you believe only this one.

I'm sure you are of the opinion that Porzingis is terrible as well because of his bad WS/48, BPM and VORP? Or does context once again count in that case?


Yes or no: If Melo were on a more modest contract would he be more highly coveted by other teams? Or are you going to find a way to deflect from that fact once again?

valade16
09-15-2017, 01:19 PM
This is what tredigs quoted .... how that comment has tredigs spiraling out of control is beyond hilarious

how that comment I made has turned into the tredigs current narrative is truly awe inspiring

He is incapable of conceding that if he were on a more modest contract he'd be more highly coveted.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 01:19 PM
This is what tredigs quoted .... how that comment has tredigs spiraling out of control is beyond hilarious

how that comment I made has turned into the tredigs current narrative is truly awe inspiring

Brother, I'm sure there is a nice thread on old Friends episodes in the Entertainment section if you're not comfortable discussing basketball here. You got harsher posts because you trolled me. Simple as that. Respect me, and you just may earn the same. You don't, and I CERTAINLY don't respect you or your BBIQ, so don't expect undo kindness after you spew on irrationally about the stupidity of Warriors fans in a post I'm talking about Melo in. Moving on.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 01:25 PM
He is incapable of conceding that if he were on a more modest contract he'd be more highly coveted."Incapable" lol.

Hint kiddo: That's what a "confluence of factors" in my previous post implies. If he was highly sought after, teams would look to go after him despite the NTC. That contract is certainly not unbearable in this climate of 110+ mm team salaries. There's a simple underlying point - it's a response to the entire point of this thread and many of the posts in it - Carmelo Anthony is NOT a good basketball player at this stage of this career. I roughly defined good as a "Top 50 player". He's not there any more. Those are what my stats illustrate. Those stats - along with innumerable others that highlight his porous play, are not really debatable. They simply showcase a guy who doesn't help teams win games. And guess what? Despite playing in as weak a conference as you can imagine, he does not lead the Knicks to many wins on a basketball court. He's not even the best player on that terrible squad either.

valade16
09-15-2017, 01:29 PM
"Incapable" lol.

Hint kiddo: That's what a "confluence of factors" in my previous post implies. There's a simple underlying point - it's a response to the entire point of this thread and many of the posts in it - Carmelo Anthony is NOT a good basketball player at this stage of this career. I roughly defined good as a "Top 50 player". He's not there any more. Those are what my stats illustrate. Those stats - along with innumerable others that highlight his porous play, are not really debatable. They simply showcase a guy who doesn't help teams win games. And guess what? Despite playing in as weak a conference as you can imagine, he does not lead the Knicks to many wins on a basketball court. He's not even the best player on that terrible squad either.

And yet your confluence of factors is completely devoid of context that might have contributed to those facts.

It's been a whopping year since Melo posted the highest BPM and VORP for the Knicks at 2.6 and 2.9. He did it the very season before last year.

The underlying point here is simple: you don't want to apply context to his situation and his skillset.

But we're done here kiddo, I don't have the time to give you a lesson on such things right now.

valade16
09-15-2017, 01:34 PM
In 2016 Melo's VORP of 2.9 was 24th highest in the entire NBA. Clearly he is done as a contributor.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 01:35 PM
And yet your confluence of factors is completely devoid of context that might have contributed to those facts.

It's been a whopping year since Melo posted the highest BPM and VORP for the Knicks at 2.6 and 2.9. He did it the very season before last year.

The underlying point here is simple: you don't want to apply context to his situation and his skillset.

But we're done here kiddo, I don't have the time to give you a lesson on such things right now.
Only 2 seasons ago the aging veteran was arguably the best player on a terrible team? Well now I have some re-thinking to do. I appreciate your continued insight.

valade16
09-15-2017, 01:37 PM
Only 2 seasons ago the aging veteran was he the best player on a terrible team? Well now I have some re-thinking to do.

This is a logical fallacy, it would imply you thought about this subject at all to begin with.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 01:43 PM
This is a logical fallacy, it would imply you thought about this subject at all to begin with.

Never been confused with a comedian ay.

Anyway, if either of you actually have a tenable reason to argue my stance of Melo as a non +impact, non top-50 player in the NBA and can actually bring up some stats to back up your cause, have at it. Until then, probably best to stop de-railing the thread.

FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 01:45 PM
Can you guys stop quoting him? It's disturbing having to read his damn quoted posts. Defeeats the purpose of ignoring him. No one has taken him seriously like two years ago. It's just a guy who has a huge ego and a boner from the Warriors.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 01:51 PM
I think I'm smarter than most of you clowns because, well, I am. And hint: I didn't start the trolling here. But sure, continue the de-rail of your own thread. I apologize for providing the stats to make you look like an even bigger clown for creating it.

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 01:53 PM
If Melo was on the Warriors, Cavs, Celtics, Rockets, Thunder, etc. (teams he's the 3rd or maybe even less best player his advanced stats would be good and the stat geeks would have him top 30. Since he's on the Knicks surrounded by a bunch of scrubs he has bad stats.

For example, I bet Warriors fans think Iggy is better, he isn't.

Another example, Patrick Beverly is ranked 14 spots higher than Melo because he was on a very good team last year. That wouldn't be the case if you swapped the two. Anyone who thinks Beverly has more impact on winning than Melo is a fool and I don't care what numbers you throw at me.

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 01:55 PM
To be honest if you want to see the best rankings for 2018 just buy 2k18 lol. They honestly have the best rankings I've seen. Better than ESPN, SI, Live, BR, Slam, etc. I disagree with a few of them but on point for the most part.

valade16
09-15-2017, 01:58 PM
Never been confused with a comedian ay.

Anyway, if either of you actually have a tenable reason to argue my stance of Melo as a non +impact, non top-50 player in the NBA and can actually bring up some stats to back up your cause, have at it. Until then, probably best to stop de-railing the thread.

I just did. You dismissed them. It's easy to say "I see no tenable reason against my stance if I dismiss all tenable reasons".

Carmelo proved in 2016 he can be a positive contributor in the league. He had the same TS% in 2016 as he did in 2017. His shooting %'s across the board were nearly identical. Last year the entire team sucked and yes, Melo sucked at leading it. He is no longer a #1 scorer, nor should he be. Any team he is the leader of will suck.

You used the aging veteran excuse, but he is only 32 and his game isn't reliant on extreme athleticism. He was better in 2016 than he was in 2015. If you truly think he got better, then got worse, then got better, then got worse well, you fundamentally don't know how to understand what stats are telling us. His impact was less or more depending upon the situation, but he was mostly the same player.

But determining whether a person has any value based off whether they can be a number 1 scorer and #1 option on a team and lead them to a winning record is a terrible way to judge whether a player can provide value. By that measure Andre Iguodala sucks because if he were the #1 option on a team (say NY) he wouldn't be very good. No, that's now how it goes.

Melo can be a positive contributor if he is no longer the #1 offensive option on a team. If he were to embrace being a 3rd scorer on a team he would easily provide value simply because he is still capable of creating his own shot and he is a very good catch and shoot guy. He is someone offensively you have to account for.

He would be far better as a 3rd option than he would as a #1 option. And if he had a contract that was more in line with a #3 best player on a team compared to a top 15 player, he'd already have been traded to Houston. Or Portland. Or Cleveland. Or the Clippers. or a any one of the half dozen places that have shown an interest in acquiring him.

If you disagree fine. I don't care. But to say you haven't been provided with a tenable argument is wrong. You have. You're just too arrogant to see it.

valade16
09-15-2017, 02:00 PM
I think I'm smarter than most of you clowns because, well, I am. And hint: I didn't start the trolling here. But sure, continue the de-rail of your own thread. I apologize for providing the stats to make you look like an even bigger clown for creating it.

I may not have ever been confused for a comedian, but it seems you have been lol

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 02:05 PM
I just did. You dismissed them. It's easy to say "I see no tenable reason against my stance if I dismiss all tenable reasons".

Carmelo proved in 2016 he can be a positive contributor in the league. He had the same TS% in 2016 as he did in 2017. His shooting %'s across the board were nearly identical. Last year the entire team sucked and yes, Melo sucked at leading it. He is no longer a #1 scorer, nor should he be. Any team he is the leader of will suck.

You used the aging veteran excuse, but he is only 32 and his game isn't reliant on extreme athleticism. He was better in 2016 than he was in 2015. If you truly think he got better, then got worse, then got better, then got worse well, you fundamentally don't know how to understand what stats are telling us. His impact was less or more depending upon the situation, but he was mostly the same player.

But determining whether a person has any value based off whether they can be a number 1 scorer and #1 option on a team and lead them to a winning record is a terrible way to judge whether a player can provide value. By that measure Andre Iguodala sucks because if he were the #1 option on a team (say NY) he wouldn't be very good. No, that's now how it goes.

Melo can be a positive contributor if he is no longer the #1 offensive option on a team. If he were to embrace being a 3rd scorer on a team he would easily provide value simply because he is still capable of creating his own shot and he is a very good catch and shoot guy. He is someone offensively you have to account for.

He would be far better as a 3rd option than he would as a #1 option. And if he had a contract that was more in line with a #3 best player on a team compared to a top 15 player, he'd already have been traded to Houston. Or Portland. Or Cleveland. Or the Clippers. or a any one of the half dozen places that have shown an interest in acquiring him.

If you disagree fine. I don't care. But to say you haven't been provided with a tenable argument is wrong. You have. You're just too arrogant to see it.

It's this advanced stats movement. It has a place but goodness it has ****ed up everyone's view of the game. It's the reason people think Iggy and Patrick Beverly are better than Melo.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 02:08 PM
I just did. You dismissed them. It's easy to say "I see no tenable reason against my stance if I dismiss all tenable reasons".

Carmelo proved in 2016 he can be a positive contributor in the league. He had the same TS% in 2016 as he did in 2017. His shooting %'s across the board were nearly identical. Last year the entire team sucked and yes, Melo sucked at leading it. He is no longer a #1 scorer, nor should he be. Any team he is the leader of will suck.

You used the aging veteran excuse, but he is only 32 and his game isn't reliant on extreme athleticism. He was better in 2016 than he was in 2015. If you truly think he got better, then got worse, then got better, then got worse well, you fundamentally don't know how to understand what stats are telling us. His impact was less or more depending upon the situation, but he was mostly the same player.

But determining whether a person has any value based off whether they can be a number 1 scorer and #1 option on a team and lead them to a winning record is a terrible way to judge whether a player can provide value. By that measure Andre Iguodala sucks because if he were the #1 option on a team (say NY) he wouldn't be very good. No, that's now how it goes.

Melo can be a positive contributor if he is no longer the #1 offensive option on a team. If he were to embrace being a 3rd scorer on a team he would easily provide value simply because he is still capable of creating his own shot and he is a very good catch and shoot guy. He is someone offensively you have to account for.

He would be far better as a 3rd option than he would as a #1 option. And if he had a contract that was more in line with a #3 best player on a team compared to a top 15 player, he'd already have been traded to Houston. Or Portland. Or Cleveland. Or the Clippers. or a any one of the half dozen places that have shown an interest in acquiring him.

If you disagree fine. I don't care. But to say you haven't been provided with a tenable argument is wrong. You have. You're just too arrogant to see it.
What you provided (now) was only to propose that in a hypothetical he could possibly actually be a positive on one side of the floor with decreased usage + multiple better players along side him. That I am fine with. Guess who else could do that? A **** ton of players: Otto Porter, Danny Green, K Love, Jae Crowder, Trevor Ariza, Khris Middleton, etc etc. And many of them will also contribute on the other end, which Melo simply has not/does not. His value came as a #1 option who could handle double teams and still score at a fairly reasonable clip. He doesn't have that value going forward (and currently struggles as a co-#1 in that role), and by mitigating his potential value and essentially dropping him into a role as a 3 and No-D option who can offer spot up scoring when necessary (but why would you want that as it's an inefficient shot and he would be the third best offensive weapon on the floor), you remove his worth as a potential top 50 guy in the league. Any way you want to slice it, he's not going to bring you top 50 impact in the NBA. Melo is 33 by the way.

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 02:14 PM
What you provided (now) was only to propose that in a hypothetical he could possibly actually be a positive on one side of the floor with decreased usage + multiple better players along side him. That I am fine with. Guess who else could do that? A **** ton of players: Otto Porter, Danny Green, K Love, Jae Crowder, Trevor Ariza, Khris Middleton, etc etc. And many of them will also contribute on the other end, which Melo simply has not/does not. His value came as a #1 option who could handle double teams and still score at a fairly reasonable clip. He doesn't have that value going forward (and currently struggles as a co-#1 in that role), and by mitigating his potential value and essentially dropping him into a role as a 3 and No-D option who can offer spot up scoring when necessary (but why would you want that as it's an inefficient shot and he would be the third best offensive weapon on the floor), you remove his worth as a potential top 50 guy in the league. Any way you want to slice it, he's not going to bring you top 50 impact in the NBA. Melo is 33 by the way.

Some of the players you listed are viewed as better than Melo because that's the exact situation they're already in. All of them except maybe Love would see a dip in their numbers all around and as a result, wouldn't be viewed as highly.

valade16
09-15-2017, 02:16 PM
What you provided (now) was only to propose that in a hypothetical he could possibly actually be a positive on one side of the floor with decreased usage + multiple better players along side him. That I am fine with. Guess who else could do that? A **** ton of players: Otto Porter, Danny Green, K Love, Jae Crowder, Trevor Ariza, Khris Middleton, etc etc. And many of them will also contribute on the other end, which Melo simply has not/does not. His value came as a #1 option who could handle double teams and still score at a fairly reasonable clip. He doesn't have that value going forward (and currently struggles as a co-#1 in that role), and by mitigating his potential value and essentially dropping him into a role as a 3 and No-D option who can offer spot up scoring when necessary (but why would you want that as it's an inefficient shot and he would be the third best offensive weapon on the floor), you remove his worth as a potential top 50 guy in the league. Any way you want to slice it, he's not going to bring you top 50 impact in the NBA. Melo is 33 by the way.

First Bolded: I didn't offer you only a hypothetical of how he could be a positive. I showed you factually he was a positive in 2016. Ignore it all you want, but it happened, and it's not ancient history either.

Second Bolded: You said a ton of players and then half the list was people everyone would say is above Melo at this point. You did bring up Trevor Ariza, if Melo were swapped for Ariza on Houston he would be better for Houston and better than Ariza. Heck, if they had identical contracts and NY agreed to the trade, Melo would have been in Houston for Ariza the very second the deal was proposed.

Third Bolded: His value may have come from being that, but that is no longer where is value is. His value now is being a scorer who can both catch and shoot as well as create his own shot and who may occasionally demand a double team and who can take pressure off the #1 scoring option.

Fourth Bolded: Any way you slice it, he did in 2016 and he can do so again.

valade16
09-15-2017, 02:17 PM
Some of the players you listed are viewed as better than Melo because that's the exact situation they're already in. All of them except maybe Love would see a dip in their numbers all around and as a result, wouldn't be viewed as highly.

Like I said in my post below, it's ironic he mentioned Ariza who is in a similar role Houston envisions for Melo should he go. Morey would be salivating at the idea of swapping Ariza for Melo.

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 02:23 PM
Like I said in my post below, it's ironic he mentioned Ariza who is in a similar role Houston envisions for Melo should he go. Morey would be salivating at the idea of swapping Ariza for Melo.

Trevor Ariza is actually a guy one of these verified advanced stats twitter guys was trying to claim is better than Melo. It's gotten out of hand.

Jamiecballer
09-15-2017, 02:23 PM
He is incapable of conceding that if he were on a more modest contract he'd be more highly coveted.I'm not so sure he would be. Like it would have to be a really good contract at this point in melos career

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 02:25 PM
Like I said in my post below, it's ironic he mentioned Ariza who is in a similar role Houston envisions for Melo should he go. Morey would be salivating at the idea of swapping Ariza for Melo.

Lmao, it's unbelievable. Melo hasn't succeeded precisely due to him being looked upon as a 1st option player. If Melo is willing to waive his clause to go to Houston/Cavs/Portland, it tells everyone that he wants to win and would not mind playing behind better players than himself. Swap Ariza to the Knicks and force him to be your first option player. Guarantee he would look atrocious and would be out of the league before someone can say trade. Melo is stuck in that situation in that he's not a first option player but he's still good enough to where he is a threat. But seriously, why do you guys try and "debate" with someone who has solidified his argument and won't change it regardless of what is given? I've tried. It's a total waste of time with the same terms being thrown around.

Kid
You don't know anything about basketball
I gamble and brag about all my wins
I am the best and you all suck

That's who you're dealing with. Give up.

KingPosey
09-15-2017, 02:29 PM
Lmfao. Damn. Don't worry. Lavar probably did the rankings

Hes not #1 so I doubt it

tredigs
09-15-2017, 02:35 PM
First Bolded: I didn't offer you only a hypothetical of how he could be a positive. I showed you factually he was a positive in 2016. Ignore it all you want, but it happened, and it's not ancient history either.

Second Bolded: You said a ton of players and then half the list was people everyone would say is above Melo at this point. You did bring up Trevor Ariza, if Melo were swapped for Ariza on Houston he would be better for Houston and better than Ariza. Heck, if they had identical contracts and NY agreed to the trade, Melo would have been in Houston for Ariza the very second the deal was proposed.

Third Bolded: His value may have come from being that, but that is no longer where is value is. His value now is being a scorer who can both catch and shoot as well as create his own shot and who may occasionally demand a double team and who can take pressure off the #1 scoring option.

Fourth Bolded: Any way you slice it, he did in 2016 and he can do so again.

My list was not a better then/worse then. It's an off the cuff group you are trying to lump him with in your new hypothetical in order to make him a + player. Your point is to neuter his role, and you think that it provides him with more value to a team. It does do so, but it also maximizes his potential impact.

What you and many don't seem to get is that even 2 years ago in 2015/16 (in a completely different role than the one you are describing mind you), he was still barely top 50 from an impact standpoint. He was putting up an inefficient 21.8 PPG (53% TS... his new norm the past few seasons), wasn't providing consistent defense, had a VORP and BPM nowhere remotely close to the top 10 leaderboard. His RPM wasn't yet in the dumpster, but it was certainly not among any of the leagues elite (not even top 10 for small forwards), his WS/48 was a **** .121, and he was "leading" a 30 some odd win team. That's the player you're describing as some force in the league. He has not been for some time. He certainly never will be again.

valade16
09-15-2017, 02:44 PM
My list was not a better then/worse then. It's an off the cuff group you are trying to lump him with in your new hypothetical in order to make him a + player. Your point is to neuter his role, and you think that it provides him with more value to a team. It does do so, but it also maximizes his potential impact.

What you and many don't seem to get is that even 2 years ago in 2015/16 (in a completely different role than the one you are describing mind you), he was still barely top 50 from an impact standpoint. He was putting up an inefficient 21.8 PPG (53% TS... his new norm the past few seasons), wasn't providing consistent defense, had a VORP and BPM nowhere remotely close to the top 10 leaderboard. His RPM wasn't yet in the dumpster, but it was certainly not among any of the leagues elite (not even top 10 for small forwards), his WS/48 was a **** .121, and he was "leading" a 30 some odd win team. That's the player you're describing as some force in the league. He has not been for some time. He certainly never will be again.

You're all over the place. Your proof that he was "barely" top 50 in terms of impact was he wasn't top 10 in terms of impact. What a terrible argument.

He was 24th in VORP. His BPM was 37th. His RPM was actually 7th for SFs:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

And his RPM was 51st overall (and was in Top 50 for players who played more than 15 MPG).

His impact was by the majority of measures most definitely Top 50.


Your last bolded shows you don't get what we're saying. Who said he was a "force"? We are saying he was a positive contributor, which he undeniably was and can be.

KingPosey
09-15-2017, 02:45 PM
Why is Melo's ESPN ranking such a big deal every year? It's 2017. Carmelo is not an elite player by any stretch of the imagination. Is the mid 30 year old one-dimensional inefficient scorer who hasn't been to the playoffs in half a decade top 25 to you? Lol? The funny thing is he always proves his low-ish ranking to be correct, or an overstatement.

I'm not the biggest Melo fan honestly, but I think his inefficiency is blown out of proportion and as a third option away from a Knicks team where he didn't have a lot of help and was extremely unhappy professionally last year really didn't help him.

I know there are a lot more methods to round out efficiency but if you look at last years TS% and really limit it to volume scorers and guys closer to what a true number one option is he really was still in the 30-40 range in TS%. I just think with the right mind set he still has a lot to offer a team offensively, and have a hard time believing hed go to a team like Houston and not understand hes buying into a different role an d concept there.

KingPosey
09-15-2017, 02:45 PM
They aren't beating GSW though regardless.

valade16
09-15-2017, 02:46 PM
I'm not so sure he would be. Like it would have to be a really good contract at this point in melos career

I don't think so. Remember what is holding the deal with Houston up isn't that Houston doesn't want Melo or his contract, it's that New York doesn't like what Houston has. Houston is willing to take Melo with his current contract. Many other teams are as well.

FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 02:53 PM
You're all over the place. Your proof that he was "barely" top 50 in terms of impact was he wasn't top 10 in terms of impact. What a terrible argument.

He was 24th in VORP. His BPM was 37th. His RPM was actually 7th for SFs:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

And his RPM was 51st overall (and was in Top 50 for players who played more than 15 MPG).

His impact was by the majority of measures most definitely Top 50.


Your last bolded shows you don't get what we're saying. Who said he was a "force"? We are saying he was a positive contributor, which he undeniably was and can be.

Yeah, but you're a kid and I gamble and win money so you don't know basketball.

-Tredigs

tredigs
09-15-2017, 02:54 PM
You're all over the place. Your proof that he was "barely" top 50 in terms of impact was he wasn't top 10 in terms of impact. What a terrible argument.

He was 24th in VORP. His BPM was 37th. His RPM was actually 7th for SFs:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

And his RPM was 51st overall (and was in Top 50 for players who played more than 15 MPG).

His impact was by the majority of measures most definitely Top 50.


Your last bolded shows you don't get what we're saying. Who said he was a "force"? We are saying he was a positive contributor, which he undeniably was and can be.
I just looked at bbref's top 10 for VORP and BPM and plainly Melo was not close to them (thank you for highlighting that he indeed was not with an average of 31st between the two). RPM I did not realize they did not filter by RPM on their page, that's my bad. So yes, 7th among SF's and 51st in the league overall. WS/48 of .121 likely in the 50 range as well. So where do those numbers along with his poor shooting as a #1 equate him to you? 35th best? Strong argument.

If your contention is just that he was a + player, but not a force, two years ago in a completely different role than you are projecting him to be a + impact player in the future, so be it. It's tenuous at best. And wake me up when Melo actually accepts and excels in said role for an entire regular season. You're basing your argument on years in the past and hypotheticals in the future. I'm here in reality, where Melo is 33 and not providing top 50 impact.

kdspurman
09-15-2017, 02:56 PM
You're all over the place. Your proof that he was "barely" top 50 in terms of impact was he wasn't top 10 in terms of impact. What a terrible argument.

He was 24th in VORP. His BPM was 37th. His RPM was actually 7th for SFs:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

And his RPM was 51st overall (and was in Top 50 for players who played more than 15 MPG).

His impact was by the majority of measures most definitely Top 50.


Your last bolded shows you don't get what we're saying. Who said he was a "force"? We are saying he was a positive contributor, which he undeniably was and can be.

We've also seen guys who are not in winning situations, go to a team/organization that is in a winning situation, and be more efficient/impactful, etc...

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:07 PM
I just looked at bbref's top 10 for VORP and BPM and plainly Melo was not close to them (thank you for highlighting that he indeed was not with an average of 31st between the two). RPM I did not realize they did not filter by RPM on their page, that's my bad. So yes, 7th among SF's and 51st in the league overall. WS/48 of .121 likely in the 50 range as well. So where do those numbers along with his poor shooting as a #1 equate him to you? 35th best? Strong argument.

If your contention is just that he was a + player, but not a force, two years ago in a completely different role than you are projecting him to be a + impact player in the future, so be it. It's tenuous at best. And wake me up when Melo actually accepts and excels in said role for an entire regular season. You're basing your argument on years in the past and hypotheticals in the future. I'm here in reality, where Melo is 33 and not providing top 50 impact.

Which is again a piss poor argument for why he wasn't Top 50 in impact. He wasn't Top 10 therefore he's not top 50. It's the opposite of logic.

Where do they equate for me? Top 50. Which is what I said he was, and you said he wasn't.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 03:08 PM
Which is again a piss poor argument for why he wasn't Top 50 in impact. He wasn't Top 10 therefore he's not top 50. It's the opposite of logic.

Where do they equate for me? Top 50. Which is what I said he was, and you said he wasn't. It is a strong argument in that it is factually true, unlike your claim he wasn't Top 10 in RPM for SFs that season...

I'm basing my argument on indicators of performance based on context and observation of his role and the team he was on. That is reality. The reality is you backed yourself into an untenable position and now due to your arrogance are incapable of admitting there's a possibility someone else could be right.

We all know it. No need to comment further.

Actually, my point on your derail of Melo's performance in years past was that he was "barely top 50 even then", which those numbers align with swimmingly. Keep reaching, you'll find a point eventually.

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:10 PM
We've also seen guys who are not in winning situations, go to a team/organization that is in a winning situation, and be more efficient/impactful, etc...

And it's especially bizarre that him as a Warriors fan can't see how a team and role can affect statistics, production and impact.

Javale McGree had a BPM of -5.9, -5.6 and -3.5 the 3 seasons before joining the Warriors and last year had a BPM of 0.8 and became a quality contributor.

Clearly it's possible for guys who have the necessary skills to have a negative impact in the wrong role and team but have a positive impact on a better fit and team.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 03:11 PM
And it's especially bizarre that him as a Warriors fan can't see how a team and role can affect statistics, production and impact.

Javale McGree had a BPM of -5.9, -5.6 and -3.5 the 3 seasons before joining the Warriors and last year had a BPM of 0.8 and became a quality contributor.

Clearly it's possible for guys who have the necessary skills to have a negative impact in the wrong role and team but have a positive impact on a better fit and team.

Javale McGee plays 9 mpg on what is essentially a super-cohesive All Star team. It is a dream scenario, much like your thoughts on Melo.

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:12 PM
Actually, my point on your derail of Melo's performance in years past was that he was "barely top 50 even then", which those numbers align with swimmingly. Keep reaching, you'll find a point eventually.

They actually don't, but it's unsurprising you'd think that coming from the guy who incorrectly read the numbers to think Melo wasn't Top 10 in RPM for SFs that year. Keep reaching, you'll find a fact eventually...

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:14 PM
Javale McGee plays 9 mpg on what is essentially a super-cohesive All Star team. It is a dream scenario, much like your thoughts on Melo.

I could find a dozen other examples if you want. Do you seriously want to deny that a player's impact cannot increase if he goes to a different team with a better role and fit? Is that where you've reduced yourself to defending? That it isn't possible. By all means hoss, make the claim.

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 03:15 PM
One thing being underrated is that if Melo ends up on the Rockets he's playing next to 2 elite playmakers. He will be getting less shots I would say but he will have so many easy looks that his PPG may not even drop.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 03:15 PM
They actually don't, but it's unsurprising you'd think that coming from the guy who incorrectly read the numbers to think Melo wasn't Top 10 in RPM for SFs that year. Keep reaching, you'll find a fact eventually...

Yes, what an extremely strong argument that was for you. Being that he was 7th among his own position and 51st in the league overall in a debate where I'm saying that even then he was barely top 50. You're crushing it.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 03:21 PM
I could find a dozen other examples if you want. Do you seriously want to deny that a player's impact cannot increase if he goes to a different team with a better role and fit? Is that where you've reduced yourself to defending? That it isn't possible. By all means hoss, make the claim.

OOOH A DARE! Kiddo was fitting I see.

As I already stated, Melo could and likely would have a more positive impact if he took the Jae Crowder, Otto Porter role on a great team (something we have no clue if he can actually allow his ego to pull off effectively). But even assuming he would for the sake of argument, it still would not make him a top 50 player in the league. It would just potentially make him a good shooter on a great team. Though he still would not offer the other facets at a high level one would like from the position like, say, defense. Hence, a capped ceiling on his impact. One that would be, let's say, short of the top 50 in the NBA.

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 03:32 PM
908713804120309761

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:35 PM
Yes, what an extremely strong argument that was for you. Being that he was 7th among his own position and 51st in the league overall in a debate where I'm saying that even then he was barely top 50. You're crushing it.

Yes because that is the only stat that matters.

And yes, I would say it was a strong argument for me considering you said it was untrue and I proved you factually incorrect.

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:39 PM
OOOH A DARE! Kiddo was fitting I see.

As I already stated, Melo could and likely would have a more positive impact if he took the Jae Crowder, Otto Porter role on a great team (something we have no clue if he can actually allow his ego to pull off effectively). But even assuming he would for the sake of argument, it still would not make him a top 50 player in the league. It would just potentially make him a good shooter on a great team. Though he still would not offer the other facets at a high level one would like from the position like, say, defense. Hence, a capped ceiling on his impact. One that would be, let's say, short of the top 50 in the NBA.

I didn't dare you. I encouraged you to make the preposterous claim you tried to make. Smart of you to not continue to make it.

I get your point. But your arrogance prevents you from acknowledging anyone else's could be valid. You called me kiddo, but the only child I see right now is you.

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:39 PM
908713804120309761

Draymond Green is a Kiddo who knows nothing about basketball.

FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 03:46 PM
Tredigs said Melo is not a top 50 player in the league. I have yet to see a list from him.. Go, try it. Make a top 50 list of players better than Melo currently for everyone to see.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 03:46 PM
Yes because that is the only stat that matters.

And yes, I would say it was a strong argument for me considering you said it was untrue and I proved you factually incorrect.

Did I say it was the only stat that matters? You're literally the only person bringing it back up. And I simply mis-read the page and said "my bad, yes he was actually 7th for SF's and 51st in the league". You're stuck on a nothing point because you think you "got me" there. It's strange, move on. He ranked 51st. It's a bad look for you to keep bringing it up.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 03:51 PM
Tredigs said Melo is not a top 50 player in the league. I have yet to see a list from him.. Go, try it. Make a top 50 list of players better than Melo currently for everyone to see.

Go ahead and post yours and I'll decide if it's worth my time to do the same (I would imagine I would have at least 45 of ESPN's top 50 I would take over Melo, and at least 5 more from the other 13 ahead of him). Or just go back to yelling at the clouds. Whatever you see fit.

FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 03:52 PM
You correctly said that I incorrectly read the page. I said, "my bad - yes he was in fact 7th among SF's and 51st overall". That goes right in line with my underlying point. I'm not sure what you're stuck on here, or why you keep bringing it up.


Go ahead and post yours and I'll decide if it's worth my time. Or just go back to yelling at the clouds. Whatever you see fit.

Cause you want me to do all the work so you can then nitpick and see who fits so you can alter your list a bit and take Melo out? LMAO, you are so predictable and lame.

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:53 PM
Did I say it was the only stat that matters? You're literally the only person bringing it back up. And I simply mis-read the page and said "my bad, yes he was actually 7th for SF's and 51st in the league". You're stuck on a nothing point because you think you "got me" there. It's strange, move on. He ranked 51st. It's a bad look for you to keep bringing it up.

You were the one that got it wrong and it's a bad look for me to keep bringing it up? LOL, you just brought it up! Seriously, you're a mess Tre.

You just brought it up. You. Not me. You.

Yes, what an extremely strong argument that was for you. Being that he was 7th among his own position and 51st in the league overall in a debate where I'm saying that even then he was barely top 50. You're crushing it.

That's what you posted. And then you have the nerve to say "Did I say that's the only stat that matters"? Well, your argument is he was barely Top 50 in impact and you keep hanging your hat on this one stat. BPM and VORP definitely show he was Top 50.

I couldn't imagine having this big an ego where I couldn't simply say "yeah, maybe you have a point".

valade16
09-15-2017, 03:54 PM
Cause you want me to do all the work so you can then nitpick and see who fits so you can alter your list a bit and take Melo out? LMAO, you are so predictable and lame.

It's not worth his time to defend his point when he's been defending his point for the past hour lol.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 04:01 PM
You were the one that got it wrong and it's a bad look for me to keep bringing it up? LOL, you just brought it up! Seriously, you're a mess Tre.

You just brought it up. You. Not me. You.

Yes, what an extremely strong argument that was for you. Being that he was 7th among his own position and 51st in the league overall in a debate where I'm saying that even then he was barely top 50. You're crushing it.

That's what you posted. And then you have the nerve to say "Did I say that's the only stat that matters"? Well, your argument is he was barely Top 50 in impact and you keep hanging your hat on this one stat. BPM and VORP definitely show he was Top 50.

I couldn't imagine having this big an ego where I couldn't simply say "yeah, maybe you have a point".

You're not this dense are you? I was RESPONDING TO YOU about that exact stat. Never once did I bring it back up on my own accord. There is a difference. I mentioned 4 aggregate stats that averaged out in the 40ish range, and complemented those stats with the fact that in his supposed #1 asset - scoring the basketball as a #1 - he put up 21.8 PPG on a porous 53% TS. That to me all rounds out to barely top-50 impact (somewhere in the 40ish range, so exactly around where I implied he was). It's also all a somewhat meaningless sidebar about the past production of an aging veteran. His best case scenario on a team like Houston is the Jae Crowder role, but with maybe 6 more PPG (likely not better efficiency than Jae last year at 46/40/81... which he would need a massive increase in efficiency just to match) and FAR, FAR worse defense. Is that a top 50 player in the NBA? Not to me it isn't.

Vee-Rex
09-15-2017, 05:00 PM
you guyyyyz

Jamiecballer
09-15-2017, 10:24 PM
I don't think so. Remember what is holding the deal with Houston up isn't that Houston doesn't want Melo or his contract, it's that New York doesn't like what Houston has. Houston is willing to take Melo with his current contract. Many other teams are as well.The NBA landscape has changed though, or seems to be changing. First there were big 3's, then Golden State. I feel like we are seeing a lot of desperation in the air with anyone willing to try just about anything. What I mean is people are more willing to take foolish risks than ever and this just seems like proof of it.

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Jamiecballer
09-15-2017, 10:27 PM
Tredigs said Melo is not a top 50 player in the league. I have yet to see a list from him.. Go, try it. Make a top 50 list of players better than Melo currently for everyone to see.Is it really that hard? That's only 2 players per team avg? For some reason that doesn't sound crazy.

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FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 10:46 PM
Is it really that hard? That's only 2 players per team avg? For some reason that doesn't sound crazy.

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Some teams don't have 2 players better than Melo.

Lakers
Bulls
Heat (Whiteside hasn't shown enough to be put ahead of Melo. He's just a huge body.)
76ers (Embiid if healthy belongs above but he's never healthy).
Nets
Mavericks
Suns (Booker is debatable.. I still say not yet)
Pistons (Drummond? No thanks)
Kings
Pacers
Hawks
Bobcats (arguable. Kemba is good but definitively better than Melo?)
Magic

There's 13 teams where I don't think they have a better player than Melo. A few players are debatable but that's it. And it would only be that ONE player on the team. Where's the other better player on those respective teams?

He's ranked somewhere around late 30's to early 40's.

The only teams that definitively have two players better than Melo are:

Warriors
Cavs
OKC
HOU
Celtics (Debatable. Not willing to put Hayward over him just yet)
Raptors
Pelicans
Wolves
Trailblazers
Wizards
Memphis

I can't think of anyone else.

You can't just divide it by the amount of teams and then try to pick the best two players on that team. How many of them also played with what was one of the worst NBA management and coaching in the league?

tredigs
09-15-2017, 10:48 PM
Is it really that hard? That's only 2 players per team avg? For some reason that doesn't sound crazy.

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2 players from every team, then subtract the worst ten from that list (30 teams). Now add all the teams with 3+ better players from each team. Suffice to say, not hard to piece together that he's not top 50. Specifically considering the list is more about the projections for 2017/18. Unless 22/6/2 on terrible defense and weak efficiency is your thing of course.

WaDe03
09-15-2017, 10:53 PM
Some teams don't have 2 players better than Melo.

Lakers
Bulls
Heat (Whiteside hasn't shown enough to be put ahead of Melo. He's just a huge body.)
76ers (Embiid if healthy belongs above but he's never healthy).
Nets
Mavericks
Suns (Booker is debatable.. I still say not yet)
Pistons (Drummond? No thanks)
Kings
Pacers
Hawks
Bobcats (arguable. Kemba is good but definitively better than Melo?)
Magic

There's 13 teams where I don't think they have a better player than Melo. A few players are debatable but that's it. And it would only be that ONE player on the team. Where's the other better player on those respective teams?

He's ranked somewhere around late 30's to early 40's.

The only teams that definitively have two players better than Melo are:

Warriors
Cavs
OKC
HOU
Celtics (Debatable. Not willing to put Hayward over him just yet)
Raptors
Pelicans
Wolves
Trailblazers
Wizards
Memphis

I can't think of anyone else.

You can't just divide it by the amount of teams and then try to pick the best two players on that team. How many of them also played with what was one of the worst NBA management and coaching in the league?

I think Whiteside is better, the rest I agree with.

Why don't you both list the players you believe are better than Melo and go from there?

tredigs
09-15-2017, 11:24 PM
Just read "Not willing to put Hayward over him yet". Jesus titty ****ing Christ. WAKE UP KID.

FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 11:26 PM
Just read "Not willing to put Hayward over him yet". Jesus titty ****ing Christ. WAKE UP KID.

And you still have no list but you criticize someone who can at least come up with something. You're real mature. Again with the insulting. And you wonder why no one here takes you serious. How did it go that amost1er was the troll to Tredigs? LMAO, amazing how this *** works. Back to ignore you go. It's where you've always belonged.

tredigs
09-15-2017, 11:32 PM
And you still have no list but you criticize someone who can at least come up with something. You're real mature. Again with the insulting. And you wonder why no one here takes you serious. How did it go that amost1er was the troll to Tredigs? LMAO, amazing how this *** works. Back to ignore you go. It's where you've always belonged.

I was reading your list and actually about to compile one for the group. Then I read that you still have Carmelo No-D terrible shooting Anthony ahead of prime Gordon Hayward. We live in different paradigms in our understanding of NBA basketball, and suffice to say, you are lost. I don't know how else to put it. That comment could not come from somebody with a fundamentally sound understanding of the game.

You make fun of the fact that I gamble on the NBA, but dear lord, I would love you to try it. You might wake up.

FlashBolt
09-15-2017, 11:34 PM
I think Whiteside is better, the rest I agree with.

Why don't you both list the players you believe are better than Melo and go from there?

Klay
Curry
Draymond
Durant
LeBron
Kevin Love
Kawhi
Porzingis
Paul George
Westbrook
Kyrie
CP3
Harden
Lowry
DeRozan
Giannis
Blake
DJ
Cousins
AD
McCollum
Lillard
Beal
Wall
Towns
Butler
Conley
Marc Gasol
Jokic
Gobert

There's 30 players who I think are better than Carmelo.

I said late 30's to early 40's but that was before I actually made a list. It's pretty accurate from what I believe are the best players. Then you can toss around guys who are probably comparable or just about equal to Melo:

Hayward
Horford
Thomas
LaMarcus
Whiteside
Embiid (if healthy, he's a top 20 player probably).
Booker
Wiggins? I don't think so but some of you might.
Kemba Walker

If some of you guys have more names, feel free to add to it but from my OWN opinion, that's the list I have.

WaDe03
09-16-2017, 12:47 AM
Klay
Curry
Draymond
Durant
LeBron
Kevin Love
Kawhi
Porzingis
Paul George
Westbrook
Kyrie
CP3
Harden
Lowry
DeRozan
Giannis
Blake
DJ
Cousins
AD
McCollum
Lillard
Beal
Wall
Towns
Butler
Conley
Marc Gasol
Jokic
Gobert

There's 30 players who I think are better than Carmelo.

I said late 30's to early 40's but that was before I actually made a list. It's pretty accurate from what I believe are the best players. Then you can toss around guys who are probably comparable or just about equal to Melo:

Hayward
Horford
Thomas
LaMarcus
Whiteside
Embiid (if healthy, he's a top 20 player probably).
Booker
Wiggins? I don't think so but some of you might.
Kemba Walker

If some of you guys have more names, feel free to add to it but from my OWN opinion, that's the list I have.

I would take Wiggins out for now, hopefully that's not the case this year because that would make the Wolves pretty interesting. So let's say we take all those players over Melo, some definitely debatable but that puts him at 39 excluding Wiggins. That's pretty reasonable as I probably have him late 30s to early 40s.

Maybe Drummond but he's disappointed.

I'll take Millsap proabably.

Not many more after that.

FlashBolt
09-16-2017, 01:44 AM
I would take Wiggins out for now, hopefully that's not the case this year because that would make the Wolves pretty interesting. So let's say we take all those players over Melo, some definitely debatable but that puts him at 39 excluding Wiggins. That's pretty reasonable as I probably have him late 30s to early 40s.

Maybe Drummond but he's disappointed.

I'll take Millsap proabably.

Not many more after that.

Yup. When you actually list it out instead of dividing it by teams and or just guessing, Melo is certainly not the 64th best player but around the 35th-40th area. Knicks aren't winning so the guy gets disrespected so much. Bad defense, got it. Can't create for others or lead, got it. But he's just on a dysfunctional team with terrible players. Can Klay save the Knicks or do any better than Melo? I doubt it. But I bet many of us here puts him top 20. Just ridiculous considering if Cavs had Melo and you told Klay to stop Melo, we all know Melo drops like 30 every night. It's funny because all these guys saying Melo deserves that spot because of X reason still can't make a list. They'll just criticize everything Melo does wrong when the majority of the league outside of the top 50 players all have issues in areas of their game. I've yet to hear someone say Klay isn't top 20 because he can't create for others/rebound/lead. I mean, the same reasons they criticize Melo for is the exact player Kyrie is. What does Kyrie do better than Melo? Score better, what else? He's not a leader, can't rebound, can't pass. But who has Kyrie top 20? Almost everyone. Some people just lack comprehension.

More-Than-Most
09-16-2017, 03:11 AM
Melo is a 1 way high usage player... whatever he is what he is... Lets go with a guy like covington and Noel who are really great defenders... Who myself personally would take over melo any day of the week... Are they better offensive players of course no... But all around i would prefer them over melo because defense/defense/defense... There are other guys as well... we dont know how melo would be as a 3rd option because we havent seen it in the NBA... we dont know if melo would change his game and actually be good but yet we should just assume?

Noel/Covington would be much better for a contending team and make that team much beter in my opinion because they know their roles... they know how to defend and they dont need to try and be the guy... we cant just keep assuming melo would do this and this and this when he has never once shown in the nba he could be that unselfish 2 way player or a 3rd option on a top team... he is what he is and last year says he isnt very good.

HeartOfStarks
09-16-2017, 04:35 AM
Melo is a 1 way high usage player... whatever he is what he is... Lets go with a guy like covington and Noel who are really great defenders... Who myself personally would take over melo any day of the week... Are they better offensive players of course no... But all around i would prefer them over melo because defense/defense/defense... There are other guys as well... we dont know how melo would be as a 3rd option because we havent seen it in the NBA... we dont know if melo would change his game and actually be good but yet we should just assume?

Noel/Covington would be much better for a contending team and make that team much beter in my opinion because they know their roles... they know how to defend and they dont need to try and be the guy... we cant just keep assuming melo would do this and this and this when he has never once shown in the nba he could be that unselfish 2 way player or a 3rd option on a top team... he is what he is and last year says he isnt very good.

I'm a defense guy. As a Knicks fan on these forums, I'd say I value D more than most Knicks fans (and likely most fans in general). Not all but most. As a player I was always a defense first guy.

I'd take Noel on my team right now before Melo 10 times out of ten.

That said... how many games are Noel & Covington helping their teams actually win? Cause at my count they haven't helped any team crack 25-30 wins. Usually less.

I want to trade Melo (for the right deal). Meaning I'd like to see the Knicks move on. But you take Melo off the Knicks, they lose 10-15 more games easy.

Noel, Covington etc. haven't shown that kind of impact in the W-L column unless I'm mistaken. Not sure how anyone can really argue that...

And oh yeah, as talented as Embiid is, the dude has averaged about 10 games a season through his first 3 years. Think about that for a moment...