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View Full Version : What if T-Mac never left Toronto?



aman_13
09-09-2017, 09:14 PM
It's T-Mac HOF week, so let's keep the theme rolling.

T-Mac has said in the past, that he wonders about what could of been had he not left Toronto. He felt confident the Raptors would have never lost to the Sixers in 2001, if he stayed. He was open about his regrets after Kobe Bryant told Slam Magazine; the Raptors could of won championships had they stayed together.

Here is a quote from T-Mac:

"I look back on how good I was when I left here and played in Orlando. I look at how great Vince was. I look at that team that they had when they faced Philly. What was is it, Game 7? When (Carter) missed that shot in the corner? There’s no doubt if I was part of that team what we could have done. But that’s hindsight looking back man, ya know?"

Old article:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1756396-what-if-vince-carter-and-tracy-mcgrady-had-stayed-with-the-toronto-raptors

So what do you all think? Could they have won championships? Should T-Mac have stayed?

FlashBolt
09-09-2017, 10:02 PM
I would say no. Kobe+Shaq>T-Mac+Vince and then you get to 2005 Pistons/Heat, I'm not sure they win.

LOb0
09-09-2017, 10:21 PM
Yeah because T-Mac and VC were such individual winners.

I'm torn to believe if they could have even beat the 2002 Nets. They would have beat Philly in 2001. But got crushed by LA.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-09-2017, 10:24 PM
They would have been good but they wouldn't have been able to beat those Lakers team. By the time they are peaking together in 2003-2005ish, they would have needed to go against the Spurs or Pistons, who would've made them their little *****.

aman_13
09-09-2017, 10:55 PM
I would say no. Kobe+Shaq>T-Mac+Vince and then you get to 2005 Pistons/Heat, I'm not sure they win.

NBA TV had the Raptors and Cavs on when they played together and they both put on a show. I was tempted to make a thread since then. Both were very good passers so I figured it could work.

It was interesting to hear Kobe acknowledge that team knowing they could of been a potential finals opponent.

aman_13
09-09-2017, 10:57 PM
I'm with you guys though, I don't think they would of been able to beat the Lakers. However I'm fairly certain they could of beat the Nets.

Jamiecballer
09-09-2017, 11:27 PM
Even though I'm a raptors fan in his 30's and it crushed me to see him go they are not a fit. T-Mac didn't become HOF T-Mac because he drank something on the flight from Toronto to Orlando, he became HOF T-Mac because he got a team where he could be THE Vince Carter if you get what I mean. He was already exceptional in a supporting player role his final year in TO.

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JasonJohnHorn
09-10-2017, 12:12 AM
Well... the Raptors were a bucket away from beating the 76ers without T-Mac... I feel like that series would have been Toronto's for sure, and that the Bucks wouldn't have been a problem.

A finals appearance would have been great. A title, unlikely, though I think they would have put up more of a fight than the 76ers. They didn't have anybody like Mutumbo to put on Shaq, but they did have a few big bodies: Antonio Davis, Oakley, Keon Clark, Kevin Willis.

Likewise, Kobe couldn't guard T-Mac and Carter, and with both of them attacking the rim, Shaq might have been put into foul trouble.

It would have been an interesting series, and it would have been a great run to build on.


With Lenny Wilkens coaching, I feel like their dynamic and development would have been better. However, at the end, both players, especially at that point in their careers, were about individual play. I don't know that even Wilkens could have tamed them. They'd have needed Phil Jackson.

I see a finals appearance in 2001 and a couple of runs after. But who knows. As a Raptors fan, we've been wondering about this for decades.

LA4life24/8
09-10-2017, 12:26 AM
Yeah he shoulda stayed. If he'd of stayed vc woulda stayed and theyda prolly made the finals once. Woulda got swept by the lakers but still, for a franchise like the raptors just making the finals would be huuuge

Chronz
09-10-2017, 09:21 AM
Even though I'm a raptors fan in his 30's and it crushed me to see him go they are not a fit. T-Mac didn't become HOF T-Mac because he drank something on the flight from Toronto to Orlando, he became HOF T-Mac because he got a team where he could be THE Vince Carter if you get what I mean. He was already exceptional in a supporting player role his final year in TO.

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Lol you make it sound as if stars have never developed alongside other stars. Tmac could've developed the aspect of his game he loved the most, his passing game alongside Vince, would've been more efficient with selective shooting.

mike_noodles
09-10-2017, 10:17 AM
There could have been a lot of deep playoff runs if they were together. I don't know if there's a ship in there or not. But it would have become an attractive place for ring chasers at least. Man that was an exciting team.

JasonJohnHorn
09-10-2017, 11:03 AM
Yeah he shoulda stayed. If he'd of stayed vc woulda stayed and theyda prolly made the finals once. Woulda got swept by the lakers but still, for a franchise like the raptors just making the finals would be huuuge

This makes no sense at all. I'd agree that LA would have won the series, but if you are suggesting that they would have been good enough to beat the 76ers, who weren't swept, then wouldn't the Raptors have stood a better chance a winning a couple of games instead of one?

Heediot
09-10-2017, 11:26 AM
Keep TMAC, trade whatever assets you have for Kidd, and that would of been of heck of a big 3 and would be killer in transition. Throw in some ring chasers and you never know.

Jamiecballer
09-10-2017, 12:12 PM
Lol you make it sound as if stars have never developed alongside other stars. Tmac could've developed the aspect of his game he loved the most, his passing game alongside Vince, would've been more efficient with selective shooting.

really? that's what i make it sound like? i think you need to read a little (read: a lot) closer next time Chronz. there is not room for 2 Russell Westbrooks on a team, or 2 Kobe's, or 2 Iversons, etc. that's what makes a team like Golden State unreal, they've got stars that all play different roles and fit well around each other. There is little wasted talent, KD obviously not-withstanding.

a decent example is Kevin Love. some people are still waiting for Minnesota Kevin Love to bounce back and his reputation is still sort of propping him up here. but Kevin Love wouldn't have that reputation if he had played with Lebron all those years. that Kevin Love wouldn't exist -- he has evolved into exactly the player that Lebron allows him to be considering the talents that he has. sure he would pass more but that's really about it.

Chronz
09-10-2017, 02:58 PM
This makes no sense at all. I'd agree that LA would have won the series, but if you are suggesting that they would have been good enough to beat the 76ers, who weren't swept, then wouldn't the Raptors have stood a better chance a winning a couple of games instead of one?
In a vacuum sure but do not forget the long layoff the Lakers had while waiting for Iverson to steal the series. That Toronto team doesn't take quite as long and the Lakers stay in stride

Chronz
09-10-2017, 03:06 PM
really? that's what i make it sound like? i think you need to read a little (read: a lot) closer next time Chronz. there is not room for 2 Russell Westbrooks on a team, or 2 Kobe's, or 2 Iversons, etc. that's what makes a team like Golden State unreal, they've got stars that all play different roles and fit well around each other. There is little wasted talent, KD obviously not-withstanding.

a decent example is Kevin Love. some people are still waiting for Minnesota Kevin Love to bounce back and his reputation is still sort of propping him up here. but Kevin Love wouldn't have that reputation if he had played with Lebron all those years. that Kevin Love wouldn't exist -- he has evolved into exactly the player that Lebron allows him to be considering the talents that he has. sure he would pass more but that's really about it.

You're not making sense and I stand by my initial comment. Wtf are you talking about, 2 kobes would be dope but vc and Mac are prolly a better mesh considering Vince became a great spot up shooter and tmac had much more potential with his passing game, if only he wasn't forced into carrying franchises. Look at Wade n Bron, stats dipped but were still elite and more efficient than before. Not seeing your point About gs, their individual stats declined too, what makes them special is the sheer amount of talent and yes, less overlapping skill sets. You named kobe n Kobe as if Vince and tmac are identical. How old were you back then btw?

mrblisterdundee
09-10-2017, 04:00 PM
Carter and McGrady were the Raptors' best chance at a championship. All that 1999-00 team really needed to contend was a younger, better center.

Jamiecballer
09-10-2017, 05:01 PM
You're not making sense and I stand by my initial comment. Wtf are you talking about, 2 kobes would be dope but vc and Mac are prolly a better mesh considering Vince became a great spot up shooter and tmac had much more potential with his passing game, if only he wasn't forced into carrying franchises. Look at Wade n Bron, stats dipped but were still elite and more efficient than before. Not seeing your point About gs, their individual stats declined too, what makes them special is the sheer amount of talent and yes, less overlapping skill sets. You named kobe n Kobe as if Vince and tmac are identical. How old were you back then btw?

dude. we already saw them together, we aren't exactly guessing here. and my guess is considerably older than you.

aman_13
09-10-2017, 05:39 PM
We saw them together but we didn't see what they could be as they developed together.

Jamiecballer
09-10-2017, 07:19 PM
Agree to disagree friend

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ewing
09-10-2017, 08:41 PM
^ he's wrong

JasonJohnHorn
09-10-2017, 08:48 PM
dude. we already saw them together, we aren't exactly guessing here. and my guess is considerably older than you.

We didn't see them together when both were in full command of their abilities and hitting their full potential.

Jeffy25
09-10-2017, 09:24 PM
I mean, we can't assume they ever get Bosh in 03

But Carter and McGrady likely don't have enough fire power to ever win together. They would have needed more help.

aman_13
09-10-2017, 10:24 PM
I mean, we can't assume they ever get Bosh in 03

But Carter and McGrady likely don't have enough fire power to ever win together. They would have needed more help.

Absolutely. I don't disagree with the take that their ceiling together is limited but Tracy was at the peak of his athleticism when he was with the Raptors. Playing along Vince would probably have aleviated some of the wear and tear that comes with being the number guy.

I believe they could of been a force because T-Mac was a very good playmaker and as Chronz stated, Vince showed that he was capable of playing off ball and spotting up.

It's ironic because both wanted to be the lead option so they parted ways, but they could of extended their peak yrs had they stuck together.

Chronz
09-11-2017, 09:00 AM
dude. we already saw them together, we aren't exactly guessing here. and my guess is considerably older than you.
Lol right because everyone knows a players apex is at that stage in their careers lmfaooooo


Act your age then, tmac n vc would've meshed better than bron n wade yet you think having only one ball would stop them from growing together? Why? Can you at least provide some shred of evidence that a teenage me wouldn't destroy

Chronz
09-11-2017, 09:01 AM
We saw them together but we didn't see what they could be as they developed together.

Lol right.

Chronz
09-11-2017, 09:02 AM
We didn't see them together when both were in full command of their abilities and hitting their full potential.
Ahhh so you're telling me a teen/20 year old isn't at the peak of a players abilities? Shocking ****

Jamiecballer
09-11-2017, 09:16 PM
It's ironic because both wanted to be the lead option so they parted ways, but they could of extended their peak yrs had they stuck together.

This isn't irony, this is exactly my point. We already know Mac did not have any interest in being Pippen to Vince's MJ. There was no room for Vince to be Vince and Tracy to be Tracy on that Raptors team. You guys are acting like we don't already know exactly how that was gonna work out lol for Christ's sake t-mac left for exactly this reason

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R. Johnson#3
09-11-2017, 10:18 PM
That 2000/2001 Raptor team was so great to watch. Everyone on that team understood that it was the Vince Carter show and nobody was allowed to touch him. Kevin Willis, Oak, JYD, Antonio Davis and even Alvin Williams would immediately have his back if anything went down. I can only imagine T-Mac would've made that team even better.

If T-Mac never left and played alongside Vince I think there'd be a few finals appearances. It may have even saved us from getting Hakeem.

aman_13
09-11-2017, 11:31 PM
This isn't irony, this is exactly my point. We already know Mac did not have any interest in being Pippen to Vince's MJ. There was no room for Vince to be Vince and Tracy to be Tracy on that Raptors team. You guys are acting like we don't already know exactly how that was gonna work out lol for Christ's sake t-mac left for exactly this reason

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But in hindsight, he and Vince have a different perspective on the situation in Toronto, hence the reason for this thread.

And just to be clear, the irony is based on the perception of their personal careers. Many feel both players should of had longer peaks and accomplished a lot more.

Sly Guy
09-12-2017, 06:49 PM
to those saying they wouldn't have been good because they played in similar fashions, I say that's a faulty argument.

TMac was playing the 3, VC the 2. Yeah, they both attacked the rim, but both could hit the open shot as well. Basically, having two elite wings on your team means to stand any chance against them, you had to have two elite wing defenders, or guys who could at least score on par with them. That's a tough thing to ask of any team. One could rest in the corner while the other attacked the rim. Or you could split their time to have one on the floor with the rest of the bench at all times. What team had a lockdown defender capable of dealing with them coming off the bench or a pair of guys capable of scoring 25-30ppg from both those positions?

Were they a championship team? No. They were one solid big who could rebound and shot block away from making it happen. But they would have been a threat if not the favorite in every series not called the finals. And with the ring-chasing nature of the NBA, who's to say after a deep run or two together that they wouldn't have attracted that one big they needed either through free agency or a blockbuster trade?

Jamiecballer
09-13-2017, 02:53 PM
I didn't say they wouldn't be good. They already were good. I assumed we all remembered that point. And again, when I said bad fit I was obviously talking about the fact that Tracy McGrady never becomes the level of player he was in Orlando & Houston. It's not championship fit, and really in these discussions isn't that implied?

T-Mac was already a fantastic player in his 3rd season in Toronto. That's a relevant point. He didn't transform into a megastar over the summer after playing for the raptors. But Tracy never wanted to be 2nd fiddle. Now Tracy isn't a guy who lacked for confidence so why would he need to leave? Because he knew there is no such thing as truly sharing the job of being "the man". Vince was the man already. Vince was going to get the plays drawn up. Vince was going to take the Kobe shot to end the game.

Vince and Tracy probably looks a lot like their last year together but more likely ends with divorce.


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Cal827
09-13-2017, 03:41 PM
They would have beaten Philly, but I'm not so sure about the Bucks. The main reason Philly got by the Bucks was their elite defense neutralizing their big 3.

But I feel we would become the Nets for the few years in between before the Pistons/Heat/Cavs come up. No chance in hell to beat the Lakers/Spurs.