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View Full Version : Is Harden better than T-mac was?



LOb0
09-07-2017, 07:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that Harden is better but for some strange reason it doesn't feel right...

Who you got: T-mac or Harden?

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 07:39 PM
If we are going by peak years, T-Mac.

If who I would take overall knowing injuries, etc., Harden.

T-Mac's defense wins it for me here and he would excel under today's league. KD before KD was in the league.

LOb0
09-07-2017, 08:19 PM
If we are going by peak years, T-Mac.

If who I would take overall knowing injuries, etc., Harden.

T-Mac's defense wins it for me here and he would excel under today's league. KD before KD was in the league.

Wasn't T-Mac a bad defender?

j-bay
09-07-2017, 08:25 PM
If we are going by peak years, T-Mac.

If who I would take overall knowing injuries, etc., Harden.

T-Mac's defense wins it for me here and he would excel under today's league. KD before KD was in the league.

To add to that Mac was also more explosive then Harden.

WaDe03
09-07-2017, 09:01 PM
Wasn't T-Mac a bad defender?

No lol not even close.

WaDe03
09-07-2017, 09:01 PM
Rockets Tmac, yes. Magic Tmac, no.

LA4life24/8
09-07-2017, 09:14 PM
It depends... in dantonis system i think harden is more valuable than tmac but in just about any other system id take tmac.

Tmacs prime was frikkin ridiculous

Shawn2timer
09-07-2017, 09:19 PM
I mean it's close...

mightybosstone
09-07-2017, 09:19 PM
Yes. Harden was the superior scorer and playmaker. McGrady's peak season (which he sometimes gets way too much credit for on this site) is possibly better than anything Harden has accomplished, but that was one season. Harden was been remarkably consistent since coming to Houston and infinitely more efficient. Any edge McGrady gets defensively (and he was hardly spectacular), doesn't make up Harden's edge offensively in my book.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-07-2017, 09:21 PM
Easily.

aman_13
09-07-2017, 09:22 PM
It depends... in dantonis system i think harden is more valuable than tmac but in just about any other system id take tmac.

Tmacs prime was frikkin ridiculous

This is what it comes down to for me. Harden as the primary ball handler is more valuable than T-Mac, but how they play in different systems could change the discussion.

JasonJohnHorn
09-07-2017, 09:42 PM
I'm not a T-Mac fan. Like Kobe, I respect his work ethic and ability, and I concede that he was immensely talented, but their approach to the game (and this is more Kobe than T-Mac) was too much hero ball and ball dominant.

Harden doesn't seem that way when I watch him play. He likes to share the ball and doesn't mind other guys shooting, but statistically, I think he is as or more ball dominant (though I feel like this season was more 'Antoni's coaching that Harden, what with the move to PG).

The defense.... T-Mac was clearly a better defender. His first 9 seasons, if you averaged them out, he was posting over a steal and a block a game. That's impressive.

Offensively, and pretty much everything else goes to Harden.

He scored 29 points on 19 shots. T-Mac scored 32 on 24 during 'the year'. Literally half as many assists, and almost two fewer rebounds.

And Harden is far more efficient. Almost .500 on 2pter for his career (let alone peak seasons) to Mac .480 during his best season and .460 on his career, and Harden's 3's blow T-Mac out of the water. Also a better FT shooter. But more turnovers.

So here are the issues.

Harden: more assists, more rebounds, higher percentages.

T-Mac: clearly better defender (not not a legendary defender), doesn't turn the ball over nearly as much.


Drawing fouls? About equal, though a clear edge to Harden.

Any arguments are going to hinge on those key differences, and I think that is enough to suggest that T-Mac's prime is in the conversation.

Career stats are pointless here because TMac has his college days in the NBA and so those stats (like guys like Kobe and Garnett) drag down his averages, and TMac also had the VERY rough injury seasons that completely tanks his career stats.

So really have to look at TMac's peak (21-25) and put that against Harden's peak (23-27+?).

I think when you stretch the averages over those seasons, it becomes more of a debate.

I'm don't even know why I'm still typing because I don't even really think either player, despite their immense talents, were effective in a team setting. I'd take a health Grant Hill over either of them, or Chris Paul if we are looking at different positions.

basch152
09-07-2017, 09:44 PM
Tmac in his prime while healthy and it is not even close.

basch152
09-07-2017, 09:52 PM
Tmac was always injured though, so if were talking for a few season, it's harden and I don't even think twice.

Basically, if you're talking about a 7 game series in a vacuum i go tmac easily easily, if it's a 7 game series at the end of an 80 game season, harden easily.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 10:31 PM
Wasn't T-Mac a bad defender?

When injuries started getting to him, yeah, he pretty much never played defense again. But when he was healthy and had those peak seasons, he was one of the better perimeter defenders. It's just a shame the guy could never stay healthy at all.

Vinsanity115
09-08-2017, 12:25 AM
Prime Tmac?

No WAY. Even with the bogus fouls he gets handed. Tmac was an offensive God

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ewing
09-08-2017, 12:34 AM
Wasn't T-Mac a bad defender?

No

ewing
09-08-2017, 12:36 AM
Anyway, where's Chroz?

Vinsanity115
09-08-2017, 12:49 AM
Wasn't T-Mac a bad defender?Compared to Har_en?

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LA_Raiders
09-08-2017, 12:49 AM
No, T-Mac played decent D.

Jeffy25
09-08-2017, 12:49 AM
No

JAZZNC
09-08-2017, 01:14 AM
Anyway, where's Chroz?
He probably had an aneurysm after somebody suggested his boy was even possibly inferior to the beard....or he just hasn't quite figured out how to use this thread to call KD a *****.

OT, I think you almost have to take Harden. He isn't as good of a defender but he does literally everything else better. He also has made it past the 1st round which means something despite what some on here would have you believe.

Chronz
09-08-2017, 01:19 AM
F no. Just more durable game to game

More-Than-Most
09-08-2017, 03:09 AM
Imagine if tmac got every single call in the world any time he was touched? Oh yea and before he was injured he played defense... Its not even close... I am sorry... Harden is great but there is no player in all of basketball that gets more love from the refs then this dude. I dont think Tmac could excel in a dantoni system like Harden could but give me tmac all day everyday.

IKnowHoops
09-08-2017, 07:07 AM
I'll take Prime Tmac...but I admit, James has made this one debatable. That game James had this year with like 53/16/17...maybe the best statistical game in the modern era.

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 09:17 AM
A healthy T-Mac? No, Harden was not better. But the fact is, McGrady suffered from a lot of injuries, it hampered his durability, and his effectiveness. So I would take Harden over a long period of time, but if I needed one of them for a single season, give me T-Mac. If that makes sense.

WaDe03
09-08-2017, 09:24 AM
KD is SOFT!!!!

WaDe03
09-08-2017, 10:21 AM
All this "if Tmac was healthy talk" has me thinking about how Wade is top 20 all time despite many serious injuries and 1 meniscus and how he would be in the GOAT conversation without those injuries.

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 10:59 AM
All this "if Tmac was healthy talk" has me thinking about how Wade is top 20 all time despite many serious injuries and 1 meniscus and how he would be in the GOAT conversation without those injuries.

right but T-Mac wasn't healthy, therefore he wasn't what he could have been. You are what you produce, and just because we all know T-Mac would have been better if not hurt a lot, tough cookies, he is where he is. Same goes for Wade. He isn't top 20 ever. Everyone and their sister knew his decline would be rapid, with his style of play, and refusal to ever develop 3 point range.

FlashBolt
09-08-2017, 11:03 AM
All this "if Tmac was healthy talk" has me thinking about how Wade is top 20 all time despite many serious injuries and 1 meniscus and how he would be in the GOAT conversation without those injuries.

What?

WaDe03
09-08-2017, 11:10 AM
right but T-Mac wasn't healthy, therefore he wasn't what he could have been. You are what you produce, and just because we all know T-Mac would have been better if not hurt a lot, tough cookies, he is where he is. Same goes for Wade. He isn't top 20 ever. Everyone and their sister knew his decline would be rapid, with his style of play, and refusal to ever develop 3 point range.

I can't name 20 better, I'm sure you couldn't name 20 that are for sure better.

WaDe03
09-08-2017, 11:10 AM
What?

He would be top 10 all time with no injuries. Possibly higher than Kobe.

WaDe03
09-08-2017, 11:20 AM
But yes Hawkeye I agree, you are what you produce.

mrblisterdundee
09-08-2017, 11:23 AM
Rockets Tmac, yes. Magic Tmac, no.

There ya go. It's all about health. A healthy McGrady combined George's defense with Harden's offense.

Shawn2timer
09-08-2017, 11:27 AM
I don't know how you compare their efficiency and ft attempts. The way they call fouls now, Tmac would be dropping 40 a game in his prime. Both his efficiency and ft numbers take a big bump.

aman_13
09-08-2017, 01:09 PM
A healthy T-Mac? No, Harden was not better. But the fact is, McGrady suffered from a lot of injuries, it hampered his durability, and his effectiveness. So I would take Harden over a long period of time, but if I needed one of them for a single season, give me T-Mac. If that makes sense.

You could make the case that T-Mac never had a better season than the one Harden just had. VORP, RPM, TS% all favor Harden. I'm just not convinced T-Mac would be the better choice even over the course of one season.

Now if you want filter the conversation through eras and systems, then I can see an argument for T-Mac.

To me it's not just about health.

valade16
09-08-2017, 01:31 PM
You could make the case that T-Mac never had a better season than the one Harden just had. VORP, RPM, TS% all favor Harden. I'm just not convinced T-Mac would be the better choice even over the course of one season.

Now if you want filter the conversation through eras and systems, then I can see an argument for T-Mac.

To me it's not just about health.

Could you?

Yes, Harden's VORP, TS% and BPM all say Harden was better (not by much), but that's because in the case of BPM they rate McGrady's season defensively at -0.1 and Harden's at 1.5.

I don't think anyone would say Harden was a huge plus on the defensive end this season let alone that much better than McGrady. In terms of Offensive BPM, McGrady's 02/03 was actually higher than Harden's (9.8 to 8.7)

McGrady outscored Harden per 100 possessions (42 to 38) and had a better WS/48 (.262 to .245).

Then we get to Harden's superior assist numbers and realize the byproduct of that is he turned the ball over an insane amount. Harden's AST/TO ratio per 100 possessions last season was 1.94 (14.8 Assists / 7.6 Turnovers). McGrady's AST/TO ratio per 100 possessions in 02/03 was 2.11 (7.2 Assists / 3.4 Turnovers).

Once you factor in the era's I don't think it's particularly close, McGrady's 02/03 was the superior season. Especially because Harden's biggest + (his scoring efficiency) is in large part a byproduct of the era.

Dade County
09-08-2017, 01:39 PM
I will roll with T Mac, but Harden has shown to be the more dependable player when it comes to health.

rhino17
09-08-2017, 01:50 PM
T-Mac was not better than Harden at ANYTHING, this shouldn't even be close

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 01:53 PM
You could make the case that T-Mac never had a better season than the one Harden just had. VORP, RPM, TS% all favor Harden. I'm just not convinced T-Mac would be the better choice even over the course of one season.

Now if you want filter the conversation through eras and systems, then I can see an argument for T-Mac.

To me it's not just about health.

I glanced earlier, and all I had to see what McGrady, in his peak season, had a negative defensive rating, while Harden had a positive one last year. That was enough for me haha, sorry. Harden SUCKS defensively, McGrady was a good defender. The modern era is tailor made for skilled players to put forth excessive offensive metrics, because coaches have essentially removed the stupid midrange shot for them, while inflating the assist results with tons more 3's.

Peak McGrady over last years Harden for me.

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 01:55 PM
Could you?

Yes, Harden's VORP, TS% and BPM all say Harden was better (not by much), but that's because in the case of BPM they rate McGrady's season defensively at -0.1 and Harden's at 1.5.

I don't think anyone would say Harden was a huge plus on the defensive end this season let alone that much better than McGrady. In terms of Offensive BPM, McGrady's 02/03 was actually higher than Harden's (9.8 to 8.7)

McGrady outscored Harden per 100 possessions (42 to 38) and had a better WS/48 (.262 to .245).

Then we get to Harden's superior assist numbers and realize the byproduct of that is he turned the ball over an insane amount. Harden's AST/TO ratio per 100 possessions last season was 1.94 (14.8 Assists / 7.6 Turnovers). McGrady's AST/TO ratio per 100 possessions in 02/03 was 2.11 (7.2 Assists / 3.4 Turnovers).

Once you factor in the era's I don't think it's particularly close, McGrady's 02/03 was the superior season. Especially because Harden's biggest + (his scoring efficiency) is in large part a byproduct of the era.

and coach. Mike D gets a hold of a skilled offensive player, and they peak out, period. His style inflates great offensive players into supermen, on paper.

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 02:01 PM
I can't name 20 better, I'm sure you couldn't name 20 that are for sure better.

MJ
Wilt
Jabbar
LeBron
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic
Kobe
Bird
Russell
Moses Malone
D-Rob
Dr J
Jerry West
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Oscar
Dirk

all for sure better. Then Stockton, Karl Malone, Pettit, and modern guys like Paul, Durant all have cases.

Wade borders top 20-25 for me.

aman_13
09-08-2017, 02:05 PM
Could you?

Yes, Harden's VORP, TS% and BPM all say Harden was better (not by much), but that's because in the case of BPM they rate McGrady's season defensively at -0.1 and Harden's at 1.5.

I don't think anyone would say Harden was a huge plus on the defensive end this season let alone that much better than McGrady. In terms of Offensive BPM, McGrady's 02/03 was actually higher than Harden's (9.8 to 8.7)

McGrady outscored Harden per 100 possessions (42 to 38) and had a better WS/48 (.262 to .245).

Then we get to Harden's superior assist numbers and realize the byproduct of that is he turned the ball over an insane amount. Harden's AST/TO ratio per 100 possessions last season was 1.94 (14.8 Assists / 7.6 Turnovers). McGrady's AST/TO ratio per 100 possessions in 02/03 was 2.11 (7.2 Assists / 3.4 Turnovers).

Once you factor in the era's I don't think it's particularly close, McGrady's 02/03 was the superior season. Especially because Harden's biggest + (his scoring efficiency) is in large part a byproduct of the era.

I can accept the argument based on Era but the turnovers and defense is a byproduct of the pace and space Era that Harden plays in. The game is far less conventional today. Defense is so hard to measure and it's even harder now with the way the game is played. That it is not to excuse Harden's defense, it's just his lack of defense is not much of factor in Houston's win/loss record.

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 02:06 PM
I can accept the argument based on Era but the turnovers and defense is a byproduct of the pace and space Era that Harden plays in. The game is far less conventional today. Defense is so hard to measure and it's even harder now with the way the game is played. That it is not to excuse Harden's defense, it's just his lack of defense is not much of factor in Houston's win/loss record.

god forbid he is asked to be a 2 way stud, like....McGrady was in his Orlando days.

Harden's amazing offrtg, can also be attributed to his era, so it goes both ways.

WaDe03
09-08-2017, 02:08 PM
MJ
Wilt
Jabbar
LeBron
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic
Kobe
Bird
Russell
Moses Malone
D-Rob
Dr J
Jerry West
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Oscar
Dirk

all for sure better. Then Stockton, Karl Malone, Pettit, and modern guys like Paul, Durant all have cases.

Wade borders top 20-25 for me.

I disagree with West Barkley Garnett and Dirk. There's no case for Paul other than longevity, everything else is clear cut in Wades favor, Durant had to run to the team with the best record ever to win and couldn't win before that so I disagree there as well. Wades 06 season was better than anything the others have done.

That's fine if you have him 20-25 although I would say there are definitely some questionable guys listed there. I still think with no injuries he's top 10 and possibly passes Kobe. He said we would be mentioning him in the same sentence as LeBron/Magic/Bird/Kobe if not for injuries. I agree.

He came into the league ****ing guys up.

valade16
09-08-2017, 02:09 PM
I can accept the argument based on Era but the turnovers and defense is a byproduct of the pace and space Era that Harden plays in. The game is far less conventional today. Defense is so hard to measure and it's even harder now with the way the game is played. That it is not to excuse Harden's defense, it's just his lack of defense is not much of factor in Houston's win/loss record.

I can see both sides of the debate. Though I would say his turnovers and defense is more a byproduct of the coach and system he's in than the era in general. Almost every other superstar wing player in todays game is a superior defender to Harden.

aman_13
09-08-2017, 02:11 PM
I glanced earlier, and all I had to see what McGrady, in his peak season, had a negative defensive rating, while Harden had a positive one last year. That was enough for me haha, sorry. Harden SUCKS defensively, McGrady was a good defender. The modern era is tailor made for skilled players to put forth excessive offensive metrics, because coaches have essentially removed the stupid midrange shot for them, while inflating the assist results with tons more 3's.

Peak McGrady over last years Harden for me.

I was surprised to see the negative rating as well. I personally don't think individual defense is as important as it once was though. Largely because of the reasons you mentioned. With that said, I can't disagree with era argument, it's just to me it was surprising to see some say that it's easily T-Mac.

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 02:13 PM
I was surprised to see the negative rating as well. I personally don't think individual defense is as important as it once was though. Largely because of the reasons you mentioned. With that said, I can't disagree with era argument, it's just to me it was surprising to see some say that it's easily T-Mac.

oh it's not easily either haha. Both were fantastic. I personally HATE Harden's style, and find it difficult to watch him, but the dude can flat out ball.

rhino17
09-08-2017, 02:16 PM
Idk what some of you are remembering, T-Mac was a dog **** defender, at least he was in Houston. He played just as little defense as Harden

aman_13
09-08-2017, 02:18 PM
I can see both sides of the debate. Though I would say his turnovers and defense is more a byproduct of the coach and system he's in than the era in general. Almost every other superstar wing player in todays game is a superior defender to Harden.

Fair enough, but my argument is based on Harden as a pg.

Silent
09-08-2017, 02:19 PM
T-Mac would of been the next goat

Jamiecballer
09-08-2017, 02:23 PM
I'll take McGrady in his prime over Harden without question. Harden is a great player but T-mac might be the most complete jack of all trades in history. I say this without much to reference pre-1985

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aman_13
09-08-2017, 02:25 PM
oh it's not easily either haha. Both were fantastic. I personally HATE Harden's style, and find it difficult to watch him, but the dude can flat out ball.

Yeah the way he draws fouls makes him tough to watch sometimes.

WaDe03
09-08-2017, 02:25 PM
Idk what some of you are remembering, T-Mac was a dog **** defender, at least he was in Houston. He played just as little defense as Harden

We're talking about Orlando TMac.

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 02:26 PM
Idk what some of you are remembering, T-Mac was a dog **** defender, at least he was in Houston. He played just as little defense as Harden

there are 29 other teams outside the city of Houston. Perhaps you didn't watch him in Orlando. And no, he wasn't a poor defender in Houston, until his later years when his shoulder went to crap and he stopped caring. And nobody, and I mean nobody, is as bad defensively for a star player as James Harden. Nobody.

LOb0
09-08-2017, 02:35 PM
Idk what some of you are remembering, T-Mac was a dog **** defender, at least he was in Houston. He played just as little defense as Harden

He was never at Harden level, but I'm very surprised he's being remembered as such a good defender when I remember him to be quite bad to average at best.

krazylegz
09-08-2017, 02:40 PM
as someone above mentioned,IF you take out the injury bug....tracy mcgrady was the better overall player. He was alot more explosive....harden is a scoring machine,but is awkward looking and depends on the 3 ball...also depends alot on foul calls

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 02:45 PM
as someone above mentioned,IF you take out the injury bug....tracy mcgrady was the better overall player. He was alot more explosive....harden is a scoring machine,but is awkward looking and depends on the 3 ball...also depends alot on foul calls

Harden is a great player, but I can say, with confidence, he would not be as good in previous era's. The flopping, and zero defense at an individual level, are something of today, and would get you nowhere years ago. Harden doesn't have the lift, or explosiveness, to score at the level he currently does without being able to act his way into 200 FTA's a year.

rhino17
09-08-2017, 03:26 PM
I'll take McGrady in his prime over Harden without question. Harden is a great player but T-mac might be the most complete jack of all trades in history. I say this without much to reference pre-1985

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Can you define this?

as I said earlier, there is not a single aspect of basketball that Tmac was better than Harden at. I would like to hear a single example (defense doesn't count, both are bad defenders).

valade16
09-08-2017, 03:36 PM
Can you define this?

as I said earlier, there is not a single aspect of basketball that Tmac was better than Harden at. I would like to hear a single example (defense doesn't count, both are bad defenders).

First, just because people are bad doesn't mean they are the same degree of bad. I am just as good as Trevor Ariza because we both suck compared to other NBA players. That's not how it works. T-Mac was a better defender than Harden.

But besides that, T-Mac was better at not turning the ball over, as Harden is perhaps the most prolific turnover machine of our lifetime whereas T-Mac has one of the lowest rates of turning the ball over in NBA history.

If 'assisting' is a measure of the ability to dish assists to your teammates without turning the ball over then T-Mac is better than Harden since at his peak he had a better AST/TO ratio.

T-Mac was also a better midrange jump shooter with both a higher career 16-23' FG% and a better peak %.

He was also a better rebounder. I know Harden has the better RPG this season but that is heavily inflated. T-Mac has both a higher career rebounds per 100 possessions and peak rebounds per 100 possessions.

T-Mac was also better at blocking other players shots.

T-Mac was better at a plethora of skills compared to Harden.

LOb0
09-08-2017, 03:42 PM
Can you define this?

as I said earlier, there is not a single aspect of basketball that Tmac was better than Harden at. I would like to hear a single example (defense doesn't count, both are bad defenders).

Statistically speaking. It looks like T-mac had one season where he was better (Congrats on that 8th seed that year T-mac) The rest Harden was on par or better, if we're talking about in prime years.

rhino17
09-08-2017, 03:46 PM
Statistically speaking. It looks like T-mac had one season where he was better (Congrats on that 8th seed that year T-mac) The rest Harden was on par or better, if we're talking about in prime years.
This. Harden over his career has been a far more efficient scorer and has among the best passing/vision of his generation. Harden has already accomplished more than Tmac ever did on the court as an alpha. Whatever tmac did well, Harden did better.

Bottom line to me is that Tmac's skills were never even enough to win a single playoff series in his entire career. In basketball, that is absolutely atrocious. Not to mention he quit on multiple teams when he was the guy to blame. The guy was never a player a legitimate contender could be built around.

Chronz
09-08-2017, 04:12 PM
Imagine if tmac got every single call in the world any time he was touched? Oh yea and before he was injured he played defense... Its not even close... I am sorry... Harden is great but there is no player in all of basketball that gets more love from the refs then this dude. I dont think Tmac could excel in a dantoni system like Harden could but give me tmac all day everyday.
He could have, just played in it too late

Chronz
09-08-2017, 04:22 PM
Idk what some of you are remembering, T-Mac was a dog **** defender, at least he was in Houston. He played just as little defense as Harden

Nah you're thinking of washed up Mac. Before that his length was useful, he constantly clamped down in the loffs, even that year in Houston he drew praise from opposing coaches for his defense vs dirk.

Harden could be twice the defender he is now and still not touch tmac defensively. Mac would murder this era if he was at his apex athletically

Hawkeye15
09-08-2017, 04:29 PM
This. Harden over his career has been a far more efficient scorer and has among the best passing/vision of his generation. Harden has already accomplished more than Tmac ever did on the court as an alpha. Whatever tmac did well, Harden did better.

Bottom line to me is that Tmac's skills were never even enough to win a single playoff series in his entire career. In basketball, that is absolutely atrocious. Not to mention he quit on multiple teams when he was the guy to blame. The guy was never a player a legitimate contender could be built around.

it wasn't because of T-Mac, unless he was hurt. He played against the best competition, year in, year out, the west ever produced (remember you needed 50 wins to make it out west one year). Either Yao was hurt, or T-Mac was hurt, or they weren't on the same level as their opponent. Outside of 06-07', and 07-08', McGrady was great in the playoffs. And those 2 years were when his shoulder started quitting on him.

YAALREADYKNO
09-08-2017, 04:47 PM
Tmac in this era would be ridiculous

Chronz
09-08-2017, 05:13 PM
it wasn't because of T-Mac, unless he was hurt. He played against the best competition, year in, year out, the west ever produced (remember you needed 50 wins to make it out west one year). Either Yao was hurt, or T-Mac was hurt, or they weren't on the same level as their opponent. Outside of 06-07', and 07-08', McGrady was great in the playoffs. And those 2 years were when his shoulder started quitting on him.

Truly a dumb comment when you consider hardens vastly inferior first round losses and him making it further was in part due to his team's benching of him. Benching harden literally won them the game, should prove how much of a team game this is and how unimpressive harden has been as a leader. Definitely a better regular season player tho

Jamiecballer
09-08-2017, 05:36 PM
Tmac was basically a LeBron talent with the scoring mindset of a kobe. His ability to get off the ground a second time was insane. He was already a force on both ends by the time he left toronto. I have no doubt he took his foot off the pedal on that end when he got full reign on offense but he couldn't have dropped that much. He was also able to look like he wasn't trying most of the time on both ends, maybe that was misleading some.

If it wasn't for LeBron I'd say tmac was the most gifted player in the post MJ era.

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FlashBolt
09-08-2017, 05:44 PM
Lmfao, is someone here actually speaking of Harden's playoff abilities? I'm starting to like Harden but c'mon, the guy has been known for being a playoff choker since that NBA Finals performance wayyy back. He has yet to redeem himself for that one.

Prime T-Mac was one of the best perimeter defenders because of his length and athleticism. He would fit in today's game like a puzzle. Unfortunately, he was always injured so the answer is Harden here.

LOb0
09-08-2017, 05:45 PM
Truly a dumb comment when you consider hardens vastly inferior first round losses and him making it further was in part due to his team's benching of him. Benching harden literally won them the game, should prove how much of a team game this is and how unimpressive harden has been as a leader. Definitely a better regular season player tho

I'd take T-mac over Harden in a PO series any day. That's how much of an epic choke artist Harden is.

LeonFSU
09-08-2017, 05:47 PM
Why would anyone care to compare a healthy player to an injured player or a player who declined after injuries? They wouldn't. Which is why there is no reason to compare McGrady when he was injured (or his post-injury years) to Harden when healthy. Does anyone really want to compare post-injury Grant Hill to a healthy Gordon Hayward? No, that would be pointless. But when both were healthy and at their peak? Then it's more interesting.

FlashBolt
09-08-2017, 05:47 PM
Tmac was basically a LeBron talent with the scoring mindset of a kobe. His ability to get off the ground a second time was insane. He was already a force on both ends by the time he left toronto. I have no doubt he took his foot off the pedal on that end when he got full reign on offense but he couldn't have dropped that much. He was also able to look like he wasn't trying most of the time on both ends, maybe that was misleading some.

If it wasn't for LeBron I'd say tmac was the most gifted player in the post MJ era.

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I would say Durant is probably the most gifted player. Dude is 7 ft almost and look at what he can do.

Jamiecballer
09-08-2017, 05:50 PM
I would say Durant is probably the most gifted player. Dude is 7 ft almost and look at what he can do.Yes, I suppose that's got to be the other player in contention for that.

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Bartlee23
09-08-2017, 07:06 PM
Things Harden is better than T-Mac.......

1. Growing a beard

2. Best supporting actor " Shaqtin a Fool "

jaydubb
09-08-2017, 07:56 PM
Easily Tracy McGrady

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WaDe03
09-08-2017, 08:26 PM
Lmfao, is someone here actually speaking of Harden's playoff abilities? I'm starting to like Harden but c'mon, the guy has been known for being a playoff choker since that NBA Finals performance wayyy back. He has yet to redeem himself for that one.

Prime T-Mac was one of the best perimeter defenders because of his length and athleticism. He would fit in today's game like a puzzle. Unfortunately, he was always injured so the answer is Harden here.

Wade put the locks on him.

JordansBulls
09-08-2017, 09:25 PM
The league is much easier now to dominate in compared to the Tmac era.

SirSkyHook
09-08-2017, 10:51 PM
Not as explosive. Not as athletic. Not as entertaining. T-mac was no gimmick, just baller.......... But overall James got him. He's the better scorer, better playmaker, he's led his team to the Western conference finals, and T-mac couldn't lead his out the first in the East, and when he had Yao ****ing Ming against DWill, Booze and Fisher, he couldn't get out the first round losing in seven I believe against them. It can't always be about who you face geeze.

The Beard is a better winner, and overall player, but I'm picking T-mac over him in 2k

Edit : I don't count him getting out the first in 09 I think, because he was injured our with the Spurs because he road the bench

basch152
09-08-2017, 11:59 PM
Wade put the locks on him.

I'm calling poes law

IKnowHoops
09-09-2017, 02:40 AM
Can you define this?

as I said earlier, there is not a single aspect of basketball that Tmac was better than Harden at. I would like to hear a single example (defense doesn't count, both are bad defenders).

Tmack was A better finisher, and was a better scorer. The only argument Harden has over Tmac offensively is based on his ability to catch fouls.

Harden is a great player, and it's close now, but Tmac with his supreme athletic ability and length give him the edge IMO.

FlashBolt
09-09-2017, 04:26 AM
How is Harden a better player than T-Mac's prime? You're underestimating T-Mac's playing ability. Back then, PG's were a real thing. You didn't have a dominant SG+PG combo who you just pass the ball to and they create every play. If T-Mac had his way in today's league, he'd be KD but less efficient. I'm talking about ultimate peak T-Mac, though. If we bring injuries into this, T-Mac isn't even a top 50 player IMO based on career. His lack of longevity is just too silly when you start comparing him to the rest of the pack. And if you still think T-Mac is a bad defender during his prime, you clearly never watched him. The dude could defend. Harden can't and doesn't seem like he will ever be able to. Plus, T-Mac was one of very few players actually taking advantage of the 3P% before it became huge. Dude was taking 7 per game in 2003.

WaDe03
09-09-2017, 11:27 AM
I'm calling poes law

Check the numbers then.

dnl123
09-09-2017, 12:19 PM
Listen, I was the biggest T-Mac fan in the world when I was younger, but I can promise you that he was not a great defender. He got less and less interested in defense as his career went on. He was average at best!

FlashBolt
09-09-2017, 12:35 PM
Listen, I was the biggest T-Mac fan in the world when I was younger, but I can promise you that he was not a great defender. He got less and less interested in defense as his career went on. He was average at best!

At his peak, he was willing to defend. When it got to the latter of his career, his injuries caused him to preserve his energy so he wasn't as able to defend.

Sadds The Gr8
09-09-2017, 01:14 PM
I think it's really close but give Tmac the slight edge. I feel in the playoffs he's not a gimmicky player like Harden, and would be harder to stop.

Chronz
09-09-2017, 04:03 PM
Listen, I was the biggest T-Mac fan in the world when I was younger, but I can promise you that he was not a great defender. He got less and less interested in defense as his career went on. He was average at best!

True to a degree, I know in his best regular season he was subpar throughout the year, choosing only to get up for certain matchups (just like Kobe when he was stealing those awards) but come post season when he was laser focused, he laid it all on the court, that goes for old man Mac too. That said he had some stellar defensive seasons and was rightly recognized for his Pippen like versatility and length. GM tallies considered him the 2nd most versatile defender at one point (behind only kg) and the dude was forced into being a center/rim protector in certain zone schemes. Then injuries and years of carrying loads that most stars of today would have hissy fits over took their toll on his genetically frail back. I remember watching him try to block everything in his youth, had he pulled a James haren throughout, maybe his longevity improves but he's rarely had the cast and by the time he did, the damage was done.


I got tapes (yes vhs) and mpegs of some of his best defensive stuff somewhere. Rs games where he locks up pierce, vince. Ps series where he locks down big dog (all while talking **** about doing just that to him), the defense on Dirk drew high praise from coaches, he also shut down Stackhouse whenever he came in iirc.

don't remember the cha series much but I think he was an anchor but i do remember him having to switch onto baron because he was just posting up lil Darrel and snuffing that out a bit but by no means stopping him. Against the piston he switched onto either rip or Chauncey and had some success in a few of those games. Tmacs teams have always over achieved

He defended like mad in Toronto too