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View Full Version : LBJ and KD had higher 2pt% this year than prime Shaq



JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2017, 02:28 AM
Saw this in another forum and had to take a look at it.

Really blew my mind when you consider the range these guys have. Shaq was a dominant force in the paint and franky got away with a lot of offensive fouls bulling guys on his way to the basket.

But throughout his prime, he never averaged over .601. KD averaged .608 inside the arc, and LBJ posted .611 this year. This is mind boggling to me. Guys like Chandler and DaJ can do this on dunks, sure... but on mid-range jumpers, slashing to the rim, and post ups? That kind of efficiency is crazy.


As dominant as Shaq was, when you look at KD and LBJ's efficiency inside the arc and the range of offensive weapons and diversity they used to achieve this, it is just incredible to think that these SFs can score as efficiently on a combination of jump shots, lay-ups, and and post-ups as perhaps the most dominant C in NBA history scored essentially inside the paint about about a meter within the basket.


Just speaks to how amazing these two guys are.

Thoughts?

goingfor28
09-03-2017, 03:00 AM
Definitely surprising. Though more D was played and the game was certainly more physical when prime Shaq was around compared to now.

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eDush
09-03-2017, 07:23 AM
Definitely surprising. Though more D was played and the game was certainly more physical when prime Shaq was around compared to now.

Sent from my SM-G920V using TapatalkThe game was also different back then where the 5 takes center stage than now where it's all finessed thanks to my Dubs flow offense, so not really.

:dance2:

JAZZNC
09-03-2017, 07:35 AM
The game was also different back then where the 5 takes center stage than now where it's all finessed thanks to my Dubs flow offense, so not really.

:dance2:

You mean thanks to the Spurs flow offense. Some of you goobers make it seem like this GS team invented the game of basketball, the wheel, electricity, and came up with democracy.

GREATNESS ONE
09-03-2017, 07:45 AM
You mean thanks to the Spurs flow offense. Some of you goobers make it seem like this GS team invented the game of basketball, the wheel, electricity, and came up with democracy.

:laugh2:

archdevil84
09-03-2017, 08:17 AM
lebron is already shooting over 0.500 average for his career. thats pretty insane imo

Dade County
09-03-2017, 09:26 AM
Different rules different play styles.... if Shaq was playing now who the hell would guard him???

I think all you forget how crazy young Shaq was, no one would be able to do anything, to slow him down.

ewing
09-03-2017, 10:15 AM
the game is soft

Scoots
09-03-2017, 10:38 AM
You mean thanks to the Spurs flow offense. Some of you goobers make it seem like this GS team invented the game of basketball, the wheel, electricity, and came up with democracy.

Don't take anything he says seriously.

Scoots
09-03-2017, 10:45 AM
The modern NBA's focus on efficiency leads to players maximizing their effectiveness. With KD last year hitting at that rate despite shooting a lot in the mid-range, but for the first time where he didn't have to create his own shot nearly as much and with more room than before it's not surprising that his efficiency went up.

LeBron doing it while running the team and in his 14th year is just ... impossible?

The stat along those lines I find most amazing is that Curry's eFG% 2 years ago was .630 for the season, before he had KD to draw defensive attention. That too seems impossible.

IndyRealist
09-03-2017, 10:52 AM
Saw this in another forum and had to take a look at it.

Really blew my mind when you consider the range these guys have. Shaq was a dominant force in the paint and franky got away with a lot of offensive fouls bulling guys on his way to the basket.

But throughout his prime, he never averaged over .601. KD averaged .608 inside the arc, and LBJ posted .611 this year. This is mind boggling to me. Guys like Chandler and DaJ can do this on dunks, sure... but on mid-range jumpers, slashing to the rim, and post ups? That kind of efficiency is crazy.


As dominant as Shaq was, when you look at KD and LBJ's efficiency inside the arc and the range of offensive weapons and diversity they used to achieve this, it is just incredible to think that these SFs can score as efficiently on a combination of jump shots, lay-ups, and and post-ups as perhaps the most dominant C in NBA history scored essentially inside the paint about about a meter within the basket.


Just speaks to how amazing these two guys are.

Thoughts?

Though his first 13 years, Shaq averaged 10.46 free throws a game. Lebron has only averaged more than 10 free throws 3 times, Durant once. Shaq's 2pt FG% is artifically low because teams had no choice but to hang on his arms and send him to the line. Any normal foul and Shaq would score anyway.

We all know Shaq was a terrible FT shooter, so his TS% doesn't reflect how unstoppable he really was. Teams would run out of guys to foul Shaq, because if you sent a smaller guy he'd get hurt, trying to intentionally foul O'Neal.

nastynice
09-03-2017, 11:26 AM
Though his first 13 years, Shaq averaged 10.46 free throws a game. Lebron has only averaged more than 10 free throws 3 times, Durant once. Shaq's 2pt FG% is artifically low because teams had no choice but to hang on his arms and send him to the line. Any normal foul and Shaq would score anyway.

We all know Shaq was a terrible FT shooter, so his TS% doesn't reflect how unstoppable he really was. Teams would run out of guys to foul Shaq, because if you sent a smaller guy he'd get hurt, trying to intentionally foul O'Neal.

Yea, he was a whole nother animal. That's why it's always hard comparing across eras, this stat completely downplays what that man was on the court during his time.

Balltime
09-03-2017, 11:28 AM
Shaq just dunked the ball too. That is pretty impressive.

JAZZNC
09-03-2017, 11:34 AM
Don't take anything he says seriously.
He's obviously a clown but it gets too annoying to not respond sometimes.

JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2017, 11:51 AM
Though his first 13 years, Shaq averaged 10.46 free throws a game. Lebron has only averaged more than 10 free throws 3 times, Durant once. Shaq's 2pt FG% is artifically low because teams had no choice but to hang on his arms and send him to the line. Any normal foul and Shaq would score anyway.

We all know Shaq was a terrible FT shooter, so his TS% doesn't reflect how unstoppable he really was. Teams would run out of guys to foul Shaq, because if you sent a smaller guy he'd get hurt, trying to intentionally foul O'Neal.

Fair points here, but Shaq was also given free reign to commit offensive fouls. He threw his *** around, creating contact that would knock people over (MaHorn used to pull the chair out from under him and watch Shaq fall on his *** to show the officials how hard he was hitting guys: did it twice in one game and Shaq got furious, but officials let Shaq get away with murder), and officials turned a blind eye to that all the time.

In all fairness, had Shaq been called for O-fouls the way, say, Dwight was in the NBA finals, Shaq would have had to develop an entirely different approach to his post up game. He would have still been dominant, yes, but he was treated like a super star more than most. Keeping in mind especially, the he came in after the back-to-the-basket rules that the league set up to make it harder for post players like Barkley to score, and then ignored those rules when Shaq became a star.

Chronz
09-03-2017, 12:05 PM
Nah. If the refs called the game square, Shaq would've averaged 20 fta/gm .

Balltime
09-03-2017, 12:07 PM
Shaq would dominate @ the free throw line too :eyebrow:

ewing
09-03-2017, 12:17 PM
Nah. If the refs called the game square, Shaq would've averaged 20 fta/gm .

No doubt JJH makes some good points but some guys he seems to like to tear down. Shaq was so big and strong that you couldn't recover from a simple drop step forget it if he caught the ball with a decent seal. He was so physically dominate that simple fundamental post play was ungradable and the league reacted by fouling the **** out of him.

IndyRealist
09-03-2017, 12:19 PM
Fair points here, but Shaq was also given free reign to commit offensive fouls. He threw his *** around, creating contact that would knock people over (MaHorn used to pull the chair out from under him and watch Shaq fall on his *** to show the officials how hard he was hitting guys: did it twice in one game and Shaq got furious, but officials let Shaq get away with murder), and officials turned a blind eye to that all the time.

In all fairness, had Shaq been called for O-fouls the way, say, Dwight was in the NBA finals, Shaq would have had to develop an entirely different approach to his post up game. He would have still been dominant, yes, but he was treated like a super star more than most. Keeping in mind especially, the he came in after the back-to-the-basket rules that the league set up to make it harder for post players like Barkley to score, and then ignored those rules when Shaq became a star.

The refs had no idea how to fairly call fouls on/for Shaq. He once fell on Vern Fleming and knocked out a bunch of his teeth. He could do the exact same move as Mahorn and send a guy flying. How do you ref that?

Vinsanity115
09-03-2017, 05:32 PM
the game is softWould Shaq shoot 90% in today's league?

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JAZZNC
09-03-2017, 05:57 PM
Shaq and LeBron are the two most difficult people to ref ever. They both got/get fouled all the time and it didn't/doesn't get called because they are just so much bigger and stronger than everybody else, plus they aren't *****es and try to finish the play. Shaq also had a tremendous control over his temper. The fact he never ended a man's life on the court is amazing to me. The way he constantly got hammered and was able to keep his cool is a tremendous feat.

Scoots
09-03-2017, 06:12 PM
He's obviously a clown but it gets too annoying to not respond sometimes.

I understand.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2017, 06:25 PM
Fair points here, but Shaq was also given free reign to commit offensive fouls. He threw his *** around, creating contact that would knock people over (MaHorn used to pull the chair out from under him and watch Shaq fall on his *** to show the officials how hard he was hitting guys: did it twice in one game and Shaq got furious, but officials let Shaq get away with murder), and officials turned a blind eye to that all the time.

In all fairness, had Shaq been called for O-fouls the way, say, Dwight was in the NBA finals, Shaq would have had to develop an entirely different approach to his post up game. He would have still been dominant, yes, but he was treated like a super star more than most. Keeping in mind especially, the he came in after the back-to-the-basket rules that the league set up to make it harder for post players like Barkley to score, and then ignored those rules when Shaq became a star.


I disagree on the "Shaq would offensive foul if they called him like Dwight". Shaq had the post move to get around you. Dwight is a log.

FlashBolt
09-03-2017, 06:42 PM
It's possible Shaq would be more dominant but less impactful than he was today than during his team.

1) Defensively, he would be annoyed and quit chasing P&R's. He was never one to chase.
2) Shaq would be dominant offensively but the game has changed to where he's going to be asked to set picks and dish out to the shooters.
3) I'd rather pass the ball to Curry than Shaq.
4) Back then, it was better to pass the ball to Shaq than to take a mid-range shot. Now, it's probably better to pass it to Curry for a three than to attempt a fastbreak shot.

Game has changed. Dominant centers didn't disappear for a reason. Game doesn't require one.

ewing
09-03-2017, 07:14 PM
Would Shaq shoot 90% in today's league?

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Probably


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LeonFSU
09-03-2017, 07:21 PM
Fair points here, but Shaq was also given free reign to commit offensive fouls. He threw his *** around, creating contact that would knock people over (MaHorn used to pull the chair out from under him and watch Shaq fall on his *** to show the officials how hard he was hitting guys: did it twice in one game and Shaq got furious, but officials let Shaq get away with murder), and officials turned a blind eye to that all the time.

In all fairness, had Shaq been called for O-fouls the way, say, Dwight was in the NBA finals, Shaq would have had to develop an entirely different approach to his post up game. He would have still been dominant, yes, but he was treated like a super star more than most. Keeping in mind especially, the he came in after the back-to-the-basket rules that the league set up to make it harder for post players like Barkley to score, and then ignored those rules when Shaq became a star.

The chair pull move works because of a post-up player's momentum going backwards. Not necessarily because the player is "hitting hard." And it obviously couldn't be used a ton against Shaq since he could just turn around and dunk. It was worth a try occasionally because defending Shaq in the post one on one was impossible. Also, some of those "offensive fouls" (whether called or not), really were not fouls. Shaq could send a guy flying by barely making contact.

LaVar Ball
09-03-2017, 08:48 PM
the game is soft
This is the answer to the thread.

JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2017, 10:19 PM
No doubt JJH makes some good points but some guys he seems to like to tear down. Shaq was so big and strong that you couldn't recover from a simple drop step forget it if he caught the ball with a decent seal. He was so physically dominate that simple fundamental post play was ungradable and the league reacted by fouling the **** out of him.

I don't mean to be overly critical of Shaq. He was a great player. It does bother me that he relied too much on his physical gifts, and not enough on his skill and conditioning. I say this being fully aware that he had a significant amount of skill and that not everybody with his frame can do what he did. I don't mean to discredit the work he did.

But I have objectively watched games where he commits horrendous and obvious offensive fouls, and then seen the defender get called for a foul. I've seen him commit over-the-back fouls to get offensive boards, and refs hold their whistle. People say that guys manhandled him, but then at the same time say people were throwing fouls at him to get him to the line.

When I see a guy like that, I hate when he gets a clear officiating advantage on top of it, and hate it even more when the guy complains about officials.

I'll concede that he was a difficult playing to officiate. That is very true.

But those suggesting that his FG% would have been even higher, or that he was some how better at drawing fouls, they simply are inflating a player who doesn't need to be inflated. Shaq didn't 'draw fouls' (not that you have said this, but others have). He was a horrid FT shooter, so people fouled him intentionally because his 50% shooting at the FT was less than his 60% form the floor. And at the end of the day, Shaq, as a marquee player, got more help from the officials than he did calls going against him.

He was dominant. He was great. Among the best ever at his position. Great rebounder. Great passer once he got to LA, and a great persona for the league. Not taking any of that away from him.

But Shaq shooting .600 on shots in the paint, to me, is far less impressive than KD and LBJ shooting .600 with the shots they were taking. I'll stand by that.

JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2017, 10:22 PM
The refs had no idea how to fairly call fouls on/for Shaq. He once fell on Vern Fleming and knocked out a bunch of his teeth. He could do the exact same move as Mahorn and send a guy flying. How do you ref that?

I will admit that he was difficult to officiate. That is very true. But I would suggest that when it came to officiating Shaq, they officials, over his career, sided with him favourably, just as they did with Jordan, and James, and Magic, and Bird. And Kobe.

I don't feel like there is an argument to be made that 'Shaq would have been even more dominant if officials called him fairly". I feel like Shaq did about as well as he ought to have done in most instances with respect to the officials, and more often than not, in situations where it was unclear, was given the benefit of the doubt.

He got the star treatment. Stanley Roberts never got treated like that. He was just as difficult to officiate.

JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2017, 10:23 PM
The chair pull move works because of a post-up player's momentum going backwards. Not necessarily because the player is "hitting hard." And it obviously couldn't be used a ton against Shaq since he could just turn around and dunk. It was worth a try occasionally because defending Shaq in the post one on one was impossible. Also, some of those "offensive fouls" (whether called or not), really were not fouls. Shaq could send a guy flying by barely making contact.

This is fari. But Shaq committed a lot of offensive fouls that he didn't get called for.

JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2017, 10:26 PM
I disagree on the "Shaq would offensive foul if they called him like Dwight". Shaq had the post move to get around you. Dwight is a log.

That's reasonable. Shaq had FAR more skill than Dwight. But both got calls going their way in important series and in the regular season.

The point with Dwight is that when he went against Cleveland, officials were fine with giving him those shoulder spears. When he went against LA and Kobe, it was suddenly a problem. He didn't get the calls.


The Lakers got a LOT of calls. That series against Portland and then against Sac-Town should have gone the other way, but officials were practically fellating Shaq and Kobe while fisting guys in Kings and Trailblazer uniforms.

It's frustrating as a fan of the game to see that.

JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2017, 10:33 PM
It's possible Shaq would be more dominant but less impactful than he was today than during his team.

1) Defensively, he would be annoyed and quit chasing P&R's. He was never one to chase.
2) Shaq would be dominant offensively but the game has changed to where he's going to be asked to set picks and dish out to the shooters.
3) I'd rather pass the ball to Curry than Shaq.
4) Back then, it was better to pass the ball to Shaq than to take a mid-range shot. Now, it's probably better to pass it to Curry for a three than to attempt a fastbreak shot.

Game has changed. Dominant centers didn't disappear for a reason. Game doesn't require one.

Some interesting points here.

Shaq was a fine defender when the game was a little slower, and more touches went into the paint. But we saw when he played Sabonis that his defense was limited. He couldn't step out.

Were he guarding the Nash/Amare PNR, he'd let guys get open. He let Sabonis shoot three's. He'd struggle to defend DMC.

The quick pace of the game would make it hard for him to defend effectively as well.

Offensively, he would be a lethal weapon with his passing. His efficiency (60% in the paint) gets you as many points on 10 shots as 40% from the arc gets you. So were he paired with a guard combo like Curry/Klay, it would be crazy.

And his FG% would likely be higher. If DaJ can shoot 60% now... Shaq might shoot as high as 70%. Who would guard him? Bogut is a big body. DaJ has some height to block shots. Guys woudl adjust and find a way to slow him down, but double teams would be needed, and that would open things up for 3-pt shooters on his team.

The defense would be the question.

IndyRealist
09-03-2017, 10:34 PM
I will admit that he was difficult to officiate. That is very true. But I would suggest that when it came to officiating Shaq, they officials, over his career, sided with him favourably, just as they did with Jordan, and James, and Magic, and Bird. And Kobe.

I don't feel like there is an argument to be made that 'Shaq would have been even more dominant if officials called him fairly". I feel like Shaq did about as well as he ought to have done in most instances with respect to the officials, and more often than not, in situations where it was unclear, was given the benefit of the doubt.

He got the star treatment. Stanley Roberts never got treated like that. He was just as difficult to officiate.

Sure he got the star treatment. So does Lebron and Durant, so it's a fair comparison. It's also fair to say that if -any- other player went up for a dunk and the defender wrapped his arms around the shooter's arm and yanked down as hard as they could, it would be a flagrant 1 because anyone but Shaq would have been thrown to the floor. On Shaq it was a common foul.

IndyRealist
09-03-2017, 10:36 PM
Some interesting points here.

Shaq was a fine defender when the game was a little slower, and more touches went into the paint. But we saw when he played Sabonis that his defense was limited. He couldn't step out.

Were he guarding the Nash/Amare PNR, he'd let guys get open. He let Sabonis shoot three's. He'd struggle to defend DMC.

The quick pace of the game would make it hard for him to defend effectively as well.

Offensively, he would be a lethal weapon with his passing. His efficiency (60% in the paint) gets you as many points on 10 shots as 40% from the arc gets you. So were he paired with a guard combo like Curry/Klay, it would be crazy.

And his FG% would likely be higher. If DaJ can shoot 60% now... Shaq might shoot as high as 70%. Who would guard him? Bogut is a big body. DaJ has some height to block shots. Guys woudl adjust and find a way to slow him down, but double teams would be needed, and that would open things up for 3-pt shooters on his team.

The defense would be the question.

I'm not sure post-rookie-contract Shaq could defend at all in today's NBA.

goingfor28
09-03-2017, 10:37 PM
That's reasonable. Shaq had FAR more skill than Dwight. But both got calls going their way in important series and in the regular season.

The point with Dwight is that when he went against Cleveland, officials were fine with giving him those shoulder spears. When he went against LA and Kobe, it was suddenly a problem. He didn't get the calls.


The Lakers got a LOT of calls. That series against Portland and then against Sac-Town should have gone the other way, but officials were practically fellating Shaq and Kobe while fisting guys in Kings and Trailblazer uniforms.

It's frustrating as a fan of the game to see that.That series against the Kings was complete ********. That's one time I absolutely 100% felt the league rigged something.

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Vinsanity115
09-03-2017, 10:49 PM
Shaq and LeBron are the two most difficult people to ref ever. They both got/get fouled all the time and it didn't/doesn't get called because they are just so much bigger and stronger than everybody else, plus they aren't *****es and try to finish the play. Shaq also had a tremendous control over his temper. The fact he never ended a man's life on the court is amazing to me. The way he constantly got hammered and was able to keep his cool is a tremendous feat.LeBron tried to finish every play and not be a *****?...idk about that.

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europagnpilgrim
09-03-2017, 11:23 PM
You mean thanks to the Spurs flow offense. Some of you goobers make it seem like this GS team invented the game of basketball, the wheel, electricity, and came up with democracy.

you mean thanks to the free flow of the old timers way before the Spurs replicated it?

europagnpilgrim
09-03-2017, 11:25 PM
Saw this in another forum and had to take a look at it.

Really blew my mind when you consider the range these guys have. Shaq was a dominant force in the paint and franky got away with a lot of offensive fouls bulling guys on his way to the basket.

But throughout his prime, he never averaged over .601. KD averaged .608 inside the arc, and LBJ posted .611 this year. This is mind boggling to me. Guys like Chandler and DaJ can do this on dunks, sure... but on mid-range jumpers, slashing to the rim, and post ups? That kind of efficiency is crazy.


As dominant as Shaq was, when you look at KD and LBJ's efficiency inside the arc and the range of offensive weapons and diversity they used to achieve this, it is just incredible to think that these SFs can score as efficiently on a combination of jump shots, lay-ups, and and post-ups as perhaps the most dominant C in NBA history scored essentially inside the paint about about a meter within the basket.


Just speaks to how amazing these two guys are.

Thoughts?

If Orlando or Lakers 3peat version Shaq played in todays game where the 4 man mask as a 5 then he would probably break the 70pct mark, seriously

bbq chicken x5

europagnpilgrim
09-03-2017, 11:28 PM
That series against the Kings was complete ********. That's one time I absolutely 100% felt the league rigged something.

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all it takes is for one time to open up the flood gates to many many on top of many, its all a game, whoever the script is favored for is the hero/champion

Balltime
09-04-2017, 12:20 AM
That series against the Kings was complete ********. That's one time I absolutely 100% felt the league rigged something.

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The kings had every opportunity to win that series. They choked in game 4 and game 7, let it go.

FlashBolt
09-04-2017, 01:02 AM
Some interesting points here.

Shaq was a fine defender when the game was a little slower, and more touches went into the paint. But we saw when he played Sabonis that his defense was limited. He couldn't step out.

Were he guarding the Nash/Amare PNR, he'd let guys get open. He let Sabonis shoot three's. He'd struggle to defend DMC.

The quick pace of the game would make it hard for him to defend effectively as well.

Offensively, he would be a lethal weapon with his passing. His efficiency (60% in the paint) gets you as many points on 10 shots as 40% from the arc gets you. So were he paired with a guard combo like Curry/Klay, it would be crazy.

And his FG% would likely be higher. If DaJ can shoot 60% now... Shaq might shoot as high as 70%. Who would guard him? Bogut is a big body. DaJ has some height to block shots. Guys woudl adjust and find a way to slow him down, but double teams would be needed, and that would open things up for 3-pt shooters on his team.

The defense would be the question.

DJ only took shots when there was a high possibility he'd really make them. If you make DJ the focal point of your offense like Shaq was, there is no way he shoots even close to 60%. Shaq might be more efficient (which is why I said dominant) but they're not going to hand him the ball in the paint every play. The game has seriously changed. Cousins would have changed his game ages ago to one like Shaq's if the game didn't focus so much on the three. It's just how it is. Do you know how many centers are probably out of the league for the sole reason they can't shoot? I'm a huge believer in that players develop from the system they are playing under and that's honestly why we won't see another Shaq soon. The three point game just killed any Shaq's.

Chronz
09-04-2017, 12:32 PM
Probably


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If Shaq were coming up today, it would force teams to go bigger and toughen up this small ball era. He would crush today's pf posing for centers but it wouldn't be too long before the influx of beefy 7ft stiffs came back just to offer him some resistance and boom we're back to a more cramped floor

Chronz
09-04-2017, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure post-rookie-contract Shaq could defend at all in today's NBA.

Ridiculous.

jaydubb
09-04-2017, 12:35 PM
Prime shaq would average 70% in today's NBA

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jaydubb
09-04-2017, 12:37 PM
That's ba buh coo chicken.

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Chronz
09-04-2017, 12:38 PM
If Orlando or Lakers 3peat version Shaq played in todays game where the 4 man mask as a 5 then he would probably break the 70pct mark, seriously

bbq chicken x5
You couldn't stop him with twigs like today, not with his agility and quickness to go with that power. Imagine double teaming him with no true center out there, lmfao he would dunk or create the most consistently open shots for a team ever witnessed.

Chronz
09-04-2017, 12:40 PM
That series against the Kings was complete ********. That's one time I absolutely 100% felt the league rigged something.

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The refs favored the kings all series. They just choked

LaVar Ball
09-04-2017, 01:02 PM
Dwight Howard sucks

ewing
09-04-2017, 11:57 PM
If Shaq and Brad Lohuas played in today's game Brad take would him outside on the PnR and Shaq would stink. the game has gotten better.

YAALREADYKNO
09-05-2017, 10:07 AM
Bbq chicken 🍗

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 10:14 AM
long 2's are a unicorn now is why. So guys like LeBron, and Durant, who are elite finishers, are going to shoot an insanely high 2 point percentage. Just glanced at LeBron's shot chart, the dude rarely takes long 2's.

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 10:15 AM
You couldn't stop him with twigs like today, not with his agility and quickness to go with that power. Imagine double teaming him with no true center out there, lmfao he would dunk or create the most consistently open shots for a team ever witnessed.

rosters would be built totally different if Shaq were playing. They were in his era, teams out west, especially teams expecting to make the playoffs, always carried an extra big body, just for Shaq.

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 10:15 AM
f Shaq and Brad Lohuas played in today's game Brad take him outside on the RnR and Shaq would stink. the game has gotten better.

Hawkeye shoutout, nice

Vinsanity115
09-05-2017, 11:12 AM
long 2's are a unicorn now is why. So guys like LeBron, and Durant, who are elite finishers, are going to shoot an insanely high 2 point percentage. Just glanced at LeBron's shot chart, the dude rarely takes long 2's.People, analysts, stat geeks, hate long 2s... But they open up the game more and sometimes that effect makes up for the less efficient shot. It's harder to plan for a guy who can also pull up, fade, and not just drive or shoot a 3.

I miss mid range so much... Was always my favorite art of many of the scorers


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Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 11:34 AM
People, analysts, stat geeks, hate long 2s... But they open up the game more and sometimes that effect makes up for the less efficient shot. It's harder to plan for a guy who can also pull up, fade, and not just drive or shoot a 3.

I miss mid range so much... Was always my favorite art of many of the scorers


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it just simply gets lost in the era of efficiency. Nothing can be done about it. There will always be guys who shoot from there, if they hit at a high enough clip. But it's a lost art, and kind of for a good reason.

Yeah, I miss it too, but only because it reminds me of yesterday..

Scoots
09-05-2017, 12:50 PM
If Shaq and Brad Lohuas played in today's game Brad take would him outside on the PnR and Shaq would stink. the game has gotten better.

All cross era comparisons come down to the same thing ... which eras officiating are you using? Shaq's bull move to the hoop would probably be outlawed in today's game.

The current Warriors would look at Shaq and say, "well, we've got 30 fouls to use on him"

Scoots
09-05-2017, 12:55 PM
People, analysts, stat geeks, hate long 2s... But they open up the game more and sometimes that effect makes up for the less efficient shot. It's harder to plan for a guy who can also pull up, fade, and not just drive or shoot a 3.

I miss mid range so much... Was always my favorite art of many of the scorers

The Warriors had the top offense in the NBA and were not nearly the top 3 shooting team in volume or accuracy, they had a lot of mid-range too. It just has to be the best shot in that possession.

Vinylman
09-05-2017, 01:03 PM
All cross era comparisons come down to the same thing ... which eras officiating are you using? Shaq's bull move to the hoop would probably be outlawed in today's game.

The current Warriors would look at Shaq and say, "well, we've got 30 fouls to use on him"

except he wouldn't need the bull move in this ***** environment with shrimps playing the 5

FlashBolt
09-05-2017, 01:17 PM
The refs favored the kings all series. They just choked

Plenty of people came out saying it was rigged... so choke or not, the refs admitted to helping the Lakers. The video shows blatant calls being ignored.

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2017, 01:30 PM
If Shaq were coming up today, it would force teams to go bigger and toughen up this small ball era. He would crush today's pf posing for centers but it wouldn't be too long before the influx of beefy 7ft stiffs came back just to offer him some resistance and boom we're back to a more cramped floor

I think this is an important point.

Teams use to sign two big guys and leave them at the end of the bench just in case they played Shaq in the playoffs.

The Pacers, for instance, had Smits... and Antonio Davis and Dale Davis. And Sam Perkins and Zan Tabak. Most teams into today's NBA would trade one of those guys off the roster. The Pacers kept them around because they needed them.

The Trailblazers Sheed, Sabonis, Brian Grant, Jermaine O'Neal. No way a team keeps four guys like that today.


If Shaq were still around, or guys like him, then teams would give guys like Tabak a roster spot, and keep a couple extra bigs around to throw bodies at him. I don't think it would change how a lot of teams play. The Warriors would have stayed the Warriors because Shaq's lack of ability to defend against that style of play would make them more efficient, and they would just be sure have guys like Bogut on the floor.

Also, guys looking for contracts would look to bulk up to offer that kind of defense, and work on their 3-ball. There have been a number of C's that could shoot three's and effectively man up on Shaq (relatively), such as Sabonis (who did a very good job against Shaq), Laimbeer, and Perkins.


Shaq was a beast. He's be dominant in any era, but it's not like teams today would just fold up. They'd make adjustments. True contenders would keep a couple of guys on their roster as insurance policies. And he would have issues making defensive adjustments to bigs with 3s, which would be an achilles heel from him added onto his poor FT shooting.

But people talk like Shaq never played against jump shooting teams. The Spurs did very well moving the ball around while playing against Shaq's teams. The Steven Nash Suns did very well. Shaq's Heat team lost to the Pistons one year and barely beat them the next.

There are a lot of big bodies that don't have a job in the league right now because, even though they can defend and rebound, they can't shoot and pass. A few of those guys would have jobs right now is Shaq was in the league.

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 01:31 PM
except he wouldn't need the bull move in this ***** environment with shrimps playing the 5

not at all. Look, Shaq would destroy any era, anytime, anyday. However, in the modern era, you could get him matching up and trying to defend players you would never want him defending too. I guess it just comes down to this: Do you try and gang guard Shaq, and make him guard guys on the other side with range? Or do you just try and go traditional, play a big on him, and hope for the best.

nastynice
09-05-2017, 01:44 PM
not at all. Look, Shaq would destroy any era, anytime, anyday. However, in the modern era, you could get him matching up and trying to defend players you would never want him defending too. I guess it just comes down to this: Do you try and gang guard Shaq, and make him guard guys on the other side with range? Or do you just try and go traditional, play a big on him, and hope for the best.

give em 2, take 3.

That's a tough call but I think at the end he would get way too exposed on the defensive side.

I'm glad he played when he did. The big man era was beautiful. Shaq, alonzo, ewing, mutombo, robinson, olajuwan, hell even rik smits, duckworth, sean bradley, seikaly....all kindsa bigs, and big bodies around the league to try and slow em down

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 01:47 PM
give em 2, take 3.

That's a tough call but I think at the end he would get way too exposed on the defensive side.

I'm glad he played when he did. The big man era was beautiful. Shaq, alonzo, ewing, mutombo, robinson, olajuwan, hell even rik smits, duckworth, sean bradley, seikaly....all kindsa bigs, and big bodies around the league to try and slow em down

I mean, Shaq would kill the Warriors. But they have the firepower to withstand giving him 40-18 a night for the series.

Vinylman
09-05-2017, 01:51 PM
not at all. Look, Shaq would destroy any era, anytime, anyday. However, in the modern era, you could get him matching up and trying to defend players you would never want him defending too. I guess it just comes down to this: Do you try and gang guard Shaq, and make him guard guys on the other side with range? Or do you just try and go traditional, play a big on him, and hope for the best.

you have to play a big against him or it would just be a point blank dunk fest every time down court...

If they put a stretch on him... good luck ... dude would either give up buckets every time down or be in foul trouble within 5 minutes

Vinsanity115
09-05-2017, 01:54 PM
The Warriors had the top offense in the NBA and were not nearly the top 3 shooting team in volume or accuracy, they had a lot of mid-range too. It just has to be the best shot in that possession.They also have Curry, Thompson, Durant.. They could do just about anything they want and still have a top ranked offense.

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Vinsanity115
09-05-2017, 01:56 PM
I mean, Shaq would kill the Warriors. But they have the firepower to withstand giving him 40-18 a night for the series.Warriors struggled with Memphis the past few years in playoffs.. While steam rolling about everyone else. That's with a Zbo causing them fits inside and slowing it down. It always got into Curry's and Klay's rhythm. Imagine doing the same slow down with Shaq.

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Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 01:57 PM
you have to play a big against him or it would just be a point blank dunk fest every time down court...

If they put a stretch on him... good luck ... dude would either give up buckets every time down or be in foul trouble within 5 minutes

Oh I know it. What I mean is, do you just concede Shaq's dunks, and make him pay on the other end to some degree? Look, you are never going to equal Shaq's production with a single player, outside maybe 2-3 guys in history. But in today's game, they probably go small-ish, and just try and force him to guard anything outside the paint.

None of it matters, if he was playing, the league would be different regardless. There is no reason to stockpile bigs anymore, but there was when Shaq played. And if he played in his prime now, he would make teams employ two 7 footers or more, just as insurance.

Vinylman
09-05-2017, 02:01 PM
Oh I know it. What I mean is, do you just concede Shaq's dunks, and make him pay on the other end to some degree? Look, you are never going to equal Shaq's production with a single player, outside maybe 2-3 guys in history. But in today's game, they probably go small-ish, and just try and force him to guard anything outside the paint.

None of it matters, if he was playing, the league would be different regardless. There is no reason to stockpile bigs anymore, but there was when Shaq played. And if he played in his prime now, he would make teams employ two 7 footers or more, just as insurance.

the bolded is the point... the league would have to change... not Shaq... they can throw small ball lineups at him all you want his team would just slow it down to a grind...

of course the league would then step in and officiate it differently "to improve the product" :rolleyes:

IndyRealist
09-05-2017, 03:52 PM
The Warriors had the top offense in the NBA and were not nearly the top 3 shooting team in volume or accuracy, they had a lot of mid-range too. It just has to be the best shot in that possession.

This is what gets lost on people who don't take the time to understand what analytics are saying. There are times to take a long 2. A long 2 has a better % chance of going in than a 3, defenses being equal. The value of a make is just different.

What analytics HATES is the off-the-dribble, 20ft contested fadeaway with 18 on the shot clock. You have 18 seconds to find a better shot. Guess what Paul George called his "go to move" btw?

LeonFSU
09-05-2017, 04:03 PM
Some interesting points here.

Shaq was a fine defender when the game was a little slower, and more touches went into the paint. But we saw when he played Sabonis that his defense was limited. He couldn't step out.

Were he guarding the Nash/Amare PNR, he'd let guys get open. He let Sabonis shoot three's. He'd struggle to defend DMC.

The quick pace of the game would make it hard for him to defend effectively as well.

Offensively, he would be a lethal weapon with his passing. His efficiency (60% in the paint) gets you as many points on 10 shots as 40% from the arc gets you. So were he paired with a guard combo like Curry/Klay, it would be crazy.

And his FG% would likely be higher. If DaJ can shoot 60% now... Shaq might shoot as high as 70%. Who would guard him? Bogut is a big body. DaJ has some height to block shots. Guys woudl adjust and find a way to slow him down, but double teams would be needed, and that would open things up for 3-pt shooters on his team.

The defense would be the question.

How exactly would Shaq struggle to defend Cousins? He'd probably let him shoot a bunch of outside shots...

Shawn2timer
09-05-2017, 04:20 PM
Shaq and LeBron are the two most difficult people to ref ever. They both got/get fouled all the time and it didn't/doesn't get called because they are just so much bigger and stronger than everybody else, plus they aren't *****es and try to finish the play. Shaq also had a tremendous control over his temper. The fact he never ended a man's life on the court is amazing to me. The way he constantly got hammered and was able to keep his cool is a tremendous feat.


Lebron makes up for it though by flopping like a lil b**** all the time. Imagine Shaq flopping? Lol, would crack the hardwood

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 04:53 PM
This is what gets lost on people who don't take the time to understand what analytics are saying. There are times to take a long 2. A long 2 has a better % chance of going in than a 3, defenses being equal. The value of a make is just different.

What analytics HATES is the off-the-dribble, 20ft contested fadeaway with 18 on the shot clock. You have 18 seconds to find a better shot. Guess what Paul George called his "go to move" btw?

you basically described Andrew Wiggins, only you left out the part where he stands around on defense and gets outrebounded by 5 foot nothing girls

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 04:55 PM
Lebron makes up for it though by flopping like a lil b**** all the time. Imagine Shaq flopping? Lol, would crack the hardwood

LeBron makes up for what? He is indeed the hardest player to ref in the current era. Similar to Shaq. Guys with outlandish size and speed for their position are incredibly hard to ref.

Shawn2timer
09-05-2017, 05:17 PM
Lebron makes up for it though by flopping like a lil b**** all the time. Imagine Shaq flopping? Lol, would crack the hardwood

LeBron makes up for what? He is indeed the hardest player to ref in the current era. Similar to Shaq. Guys with outlandish size and speed for their position are incredibly hard to ref.

Yeah I mean it's the NBA the majority of these guys have outlandish size and speed. I think it's a bs argument but fine.

From what I remember one of the reasons Shaq was so hard to ref was that he was literally getting fouled ALL the time. Like literally on every play, game was called a bit different then sure. Post games were nothing but complaints about how many calls Shaq didn't get.

The eyeball test says this, he didn't sell the calls enough. A legit hard foul and the dude would barely move so how is a poor ref to judge the severity of the contact.

Enter Lebron James
https://youtu.be/4fSlLdXNzPw

Just saying, given he's by far the best player in the game, just some shameful shite

Vinsanity115
09-05-2017, 05:21 PM
you basically described Andrew Wiggins, only you left out the part where he stands around on defense and gets outrebounded by 5 foot nothing girlsTo be fair, Andrew Wiggins makes me not miss the mid-range much.. Russell Westbrook can join too.

It's just a shame when you watch guys like Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Mcgrady who absolutely take over sometimes with their mid range

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Vinsanity115
09-05-2017, 05:22 PM
Yeah I mean it's the NBA the majority of these guys have outlandish size and speed. I think it's a bs argument but fine.

From what I remember one of the reasons Shaq was so hard to ref was that he was literally getting fouled ALL the time. Like literally on every play, game was called a bit different then sure. Post games were nothing but complaints about how many calls Shaq didn't get.

The eyeball test says this, he didn't sell the calls enough. A legit hard foul and the dude would barely move so how is a poor ref to judge the severity of the contact.

Enter Lebron James
https://youtu.be/4fSlLdXNzPw

Just saying, given he's by far the best player in the game, just some shameful shiteThey all do it. LeBron does look even worse though with his frame and drama queen tendencies.

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Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 05:24 PM
Yeah I mean it's the NBA the majority of these guys have outlandish size and speed. I think it's a bs argument but fine.

From what I remember one of the reasons Shaq was so hard to ref was that he was literally getting fouled ALL the time. Like literally on every play, game was called a bit different then sure. Post games were nothing but complaints about how many calls Shaq didn't get.

The eyeball test says this, he didn't sell the calls enough. A legit hard foul and the dude would barely move so how is a poor ref to judge the severity of the contact.

Enter Lebron James
https://youtu.be/4fSlLdXNzPw

Just saying, given he's by far the best player in the game, just some shameful shite

there has never been a combination of speed and strength in the skillset that LeBron has, is what I mean. Nobody 6'8", 265 lbs, has ever taken guys off the dribble like a guard, and come at your bigs off the dribble with that velocity. When you bump him, he isn't going to feel it. You can bring up flopping all you want, the stupid **** works, refs call that bs, players do it, period. It doesn't change the fact that guys like LeBron, and Shaq before him, are incredibly hard to ref. When they bump someone, that person legit gets uprooted. When they are bumped, nothing happens to them. I guarantee the only reason LeBron even started flopping in the first place is to sell a bump that does nothing to him.

Shaq was difficult, because at times, what would be a flagrant on your center, literally didn't even bother him or impede his shot, ie, it wasn't a foul. But then on the other end, if he glanced a guard on the way by trying to chase a man baseline, the guard would bounce 5 feet into the stands. Shaq complained that he was getting hammered with no call because he was strong and it didn't bother him, and him just barely moving and touching someone was called a foul. He isn't wrong.

Hawkeye15
09-05-2017, 05:25 PM
They all do it. LeBron does look even worse though with his frame and drama queen tendencies.

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the only reason LeBron looks worse is because we know a truck would need to hit him to actually knock him over. When a reach in sends him to his knee's, we all go, "cmon LeBron, ****ing stop".

Vinsanity115
09-05-2017, 05:31 PM
the only reason LeBron looks worse is because we know a truck would need to hit him to actually knock him over. When a reach in sends him to his knee's, we all go, "cmon LeBron, ****ing stop".Exactly.

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FlashBolt
09-05-2017, 06:49 PM
What I noticed with many teams lately is they try and abuse the fact that LeBron is difficult to ref by inserting a much smaller player to guard LeBron on the post and on the elbow. I've seen it many times particularly with the Warriors in that they send Curry over to LeBron and hope to draw some offensive fouls. It's downright silly that the refs even call it. A smaller player should never be guarding a much bigger player and then be able to draw offensive fouls (unless it is blatantly obvious and excessive). LeBron is about 50 lbs bigger than Curry so obviously the guy is going to knock Curry down when he drives to the basket. Common sense tells you that it's the result of bad coaching but the fact it is being used intentionally and refs fall for it needs to be addressed. LeBron's possibly the most difficult to ref, too. Defenders foul him but he's the one causing them to fall or bounce off. Even Russ is difficult to ref these days. The guy blows past everyone and gets hit but because all the refs see is Russ bowling balling everyone away, he gets less calls then he deserves. Yes, I am aware he's ranked high in the FTA but that doesn't mean he's getting enough calls.

IndyRealist
09-05-2017, 06:56 PM
To be fair, Andrew Wiggins makes me not miss the mid-range much.. Russell Westbrook can join too.

It's just a shame when you watch guys like Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Mcgrady who absolutely take over sometimes with their mid range

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The game was different then. Without zone, you could force an isolation by sending everybody else to one side of the court. Then wherever you were was the high percentage shot, as long as you shook your defender.

Plus, coaches didn't buy into the 3 really until the early 2000's. Everyone took long 2s because that's the play that was drawn up, with maybe a single outlet guy standing at the top of the arc, like Kerr.

Chronz
09-05-2017, 09:04 PM
Plenty of people came out saying it was rigged... so choke or not, the refs admitted to helping the Lakers. The video shows blatant calls being ignored.

Lol nothing you said was true

Scoots
09-05-2017, 10:36 PM
What I noticed with many teams lately is they try and abuse the fact that LeBron is difficult to ref by inserting a much smaller player to guard LeBron on the post and on the elbow. I've seen it many times particularly with the Warriors in that they send Curry over to LeBron and hope to draw some offensive fouls. It's downright silly that the refs even call it. A smaller player should never be guarding a much bigger player and then be able to draw offensive fouls (unless it is blatantly obvious and excessive). LeBron is about 50 lbs bigger than Curry so obviously the guy is going to knock Curry down when he drives to the basket. Common sense tells you that it's the result of bad coaching but the fact it is being used intentionally and refs fall for it needs to be addressed. LeBron's possibly the most difficult to ref, too. Defenders foul him but he's the one causing them to fall or bounce off. Even Russ is difficult to ref these days. The guy blows past everyone and gets hit but because all the refs see is Russ bowling balling everyone away, he gets less calls then he deserves. Yes, I am aware he's ranked high in the FTA but that doesn't mean he's getting enough calls.

LeBron is about 80 pounds bigger than Curry :)

I wish all the ticky tack stuff wasn't called. At the same time, I wish the defensive rules were cleaned up and called consistently.

FlashBolt
09-06-2017, 12:48 AM
Lol nothing you said was true

It's all documented. The absurd amount of FTA and lack of calls for the Kings on the other end was downright embarrassing and lopsided. I don't know why you argue otherwise. Do you have any evidence that suggests that game was being fairly called for both sides in game 6? The blatant poor officiating would lead no other option other than it was rigged. I watched it live and rooted for the Lakers. There was no way I walked away watching that game believing it was even remotely fair for the Kings.

FlashBolt
09-06-2017, 12:49 AM
LeBron is about 80 pounds bigger than Curry :)

I wish all the ticky tack stuff wasn't called. At the same time, I wish the defensive rules were cleaned up and called consistently.

Which is even more of a reason as to why LeBron should stop getting called for offensive fouls against much smaller guards. Pick&Roll situations often leads a smaller defender on LeBron and he'll get called for it when it's plain stupid.

Chronz
09-07-2017, 12:15 AM
It's all documented. The absurd amount of FTA and lack of calls for the Kings on the other end was downright embarrassing and lopsided. I don't know why you argue otherwise. Do you have any evidence that suggests that game was being fairly called for both sides in game 6? The blatant poor officiating would lead no other option other than it was rigged. I watched it live and rooted for the Lakers. There was no way I walked away watching that game believing it was even remotely fair for the Kings.
One game? I saw the Lakers get the short end of the stick all series, pretty sure the kings got way more calls all around tho. Lol at documented, I remember some articles declaring nothing to see here stuff but feel free to refresh my memory on that one. Had the series been called fairly, the Lakers win sooner

Vinsanity115
09-07-2017, 12:51 AM
Which is even more of a reason as to why LeBron should stop getting called for offensive fouls against much smaller guards. Pick&Roll situations often leads a smaller defender on LeBron and he'll get called for it when it's plain stupid.

Then they should start calling travels and arm extension charges on LeBron. Have to remember they let those slide for whatever reason too.

While we're at it can we start calling step backs like Harden's travels as well? Dude takes several steps to do his shimmy step back move.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 01:14 AM
One game? I saw the Lakers get the short end of the stick all series, pretty sure the kings got way more calls all around tho. Lol at documented, I remember some articles declaring nothing to see here stuff but feel free to refresh my memory on that one. Had the series been called fairly, the Lakers win sooner

Regardless of what you felt about the other games, there is a substantial amount of evidence that game 6 was so poorly officiated that it led to accusations of it being rigged. The reason media and closely related individuals kept quiet is obviously due to the NBA's stature in the world. Bad calls happen every game but game 6 was unbelievably terrible. I had walked away from that game not sure what I was exactly watching.


Then they should start calling travels and arm extension charges on LeBron. Have to remember they let those slide for whatever reason too.

While we're at it can we start calling step backs like Harden's travels as well? Dude takes several steps to do his shimmy step back move.

Plenty of players travel and get away with it. Refs don't really call that on transition/drives to the basket because it's impossible. A blatant call against larger offensive players is unfair.

L8kers4life
09-07-2017, 01:39 AM
lebron is already shooting over 0.500 average for his career. thats pretty insane imo

Not really when your as athletic as LeBron and are stronger and faster than almost everyone, it's not hard to imagine. He gets to the rim at will. Even if he goes 2-10 from 3 and mid range he usually is like 9-10 or 10-10 at the rim. For the game he shoots 11-20 and that's on a bad night shooting. In a good night he is shooting close to 70%. Freaking beast man

L8kers4life
09-07-2017, 02:33 AM
One game? I saw the Lakers get the short end of the stick all series, pretty sure the kings got way more calls all around tho. Lol at documented, I remember some articles declaring nothing to see here stuff but feel free to refresh my memory on that one. Had the series been called fairly, the Lakers win sooner

All Vlade had to do was grab the rebound. Kings could have stopped the Lakers, Big Shot Bob had to make that shot, the rest is history. Just like the lucky tap to Ray Allen, San Antonio should have had Duncan in to grab that board

JAZZNC
09-07-2017, 03:55 AM
All Vlade had to do was grab the rebound. Kings could have stopped the Lakers, Big Shot Bob had to make that shot, the rest is history. Just like the lucky tap to Ray Allen, San Antonio should have had Duncan in to grab that board

But without that tap out to Allen we may have not witnessed some of, if not the best basketball ever played the next year by the Spurs.

valade16
09-07-2017, 01:17 PM
One game? I saw the Lakers get the short end of the stick all series, pretty sure the kings got way more calls all around tho. Lol at documented, I remember some articles declaring nothing to see here stuff but feel free to refresh my memory on that one. Had the series been called fairly, the Lakers win sooner

Location: LA

Wonder if that has anything to do with this opinion lol?

In all seriousness, Game 6 was pretty terrible. I don't think there is a single instance in NBA history one could point to that was more one sided than that single game.

Chronz
09-07-2017, 01:41 PM
Location: LA

Wonder if that has anything to do with this opinion lol?

In all seriousness, Game 6 was pretty terrible. I don't think there is a single instance in NBA history one could point to that was more one sided than that single game.

Watch a few games prior, even that game where they fouled Shaq out with all that flopping they stopped calling as they reviewed their bad calls. The entire series is what I care about most tho

Chronz
09-07-2017, 01:46 PM
All Vlade had to do was grab the rebound. Kings could have stopped the Lakers, Big Shot Bob had to make that shot, the rest is history. Just like the lucky tap to Ray Allen, San Antonio should have had Duncan in to grab that board
Maybe but it was a contested rebound. Better reason , Peja could do the one thing he's suppose to be the best at, hit his open shots. Shaq should have never shot better from the line than him in the most crucial game. Webber was an infamous choker.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 04:19 PM
Watch a few games prior, even that game where they fouled Shaq out with all that flopping they stopped calling as they reviewed their bad calls. The entire series is what I care about most tho

That's not the point. Bad plays and calls happen every game. Game 6 was undoubtedly so blatant it had to be some sort of rigging done. I'm not talking about bad calls in game 1-5/7. Those happen frequently. Game 6? No, that does not happen frequently. If it happened today, the blowback would be enormous. NBA knows they screwed up. I mean, this is the same commissioner who rigged the draft back during Ewing's year.

THE_LOGO
09-07-2017, 06:07 PM
That's not the point. Bad plays and calls happen every game. Game 6 was undoubtedly so blatant it had to be some sort of rigging done. I'm not talking about bad calls in game 1-5/7. Those happen frequently. Game 6? No, that does not happen frequently. If it happened today, the blowback would be enormous. NBA knows they screwed up. I mean, this is the same commissioner who rigged the draft back during Ewing's year.

So what only matters is what supports YOUR argument? It was a horribly called series. Lakers made plays when they needed to, Kings did not. Peja's airball for a 3 to win the game? Just grab the rebound and Horry doesn't hit the 3? Like someone else brought up, if the series was officiated fairly and consistently, Lakers would've won in less games.

Heediot
09-07-2017, 06:32 PM
With hand checking and goons hacking you at the rim, I don't know if those guys can pull **** off like they do back in the 90's. Hand checking isn't everything, but it does make things more difficult and make u work harder to create your own.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 06:35 PM
So what only matters is what supports YOUR argument? It was a horribly called series. Lakers made plays when they needed to, Kings did not. Peja's airball for a 3 to win the game? Just grab the rebound and Horry doesn't hit the 3? Like someone else brought up, if the series was officiated fairly and consistently, Lakers would've won in less games.

No, that's not what I said. Learn to comprehend.

The other games weren't completely lopsided. I already told you, games are called poorly frequently. Game 6 on the other hand was awful enough to where there are legitimate concerns on the integrity of refereeing.

I mean, just look at THIS one play:

https://youtu.be/oBnoHLc1qVU?t=2168

Are you telling me the REF with a clear UNOBSTRUCTED view seriously missed that elbow from Kobe? You're telling me the Lakers getting 27 FT's in the FOURTH QUARTER alone while refs put Chris Web/Divac on the bench via foul trouble was a coincidence? It wasn't even that it was a questionable refereeing job for the game. It was the fact that the majority of calls went against the Kings. Blatant obvious calls.

And what does Peja airballing a three have anything to do with game 6? Irrelevant.

THE_LOGO
09-07-2017, 07:55 PM
No, that's not what I said. Learn to comprehend.

The other games weren't completely lopsided. I already told you, games are called poorly frequently. Game 6 on the other hand was awful enough to where there are legitimate concerns on the integrity of refereeing.

I mean, just look at THIS one play:

https://youtu.be/oBnoHLc1qVU?t=2168

Are you telling me the REF with a clear UNOBSTRUCTED view seriously missed that elbow from Kobe? You're telling me the Lakers getting 27 FT's in the FOURTH QUARTER alone while refs put Chris Web/Divac on the bench via foul trouble was a coincidence? It wasn't even that it was a questionable refereeing job for the game. It was the fact that the majority of calls went against the Kings. Blatant obvious calls.

And what does Peja airballing a three have anything to do with game 6? Irrelevant.

Apparently, I don't know how to comprehend. Except that you keep pointing to game 6. Peja airballing that game winner was relevant because it could have won them the series. You'd have to look at the series as a whole. If the NBA wanted the Lakers to win, how come they kept favoring the Kings the other games? Why not just call the whole series in favor of the Lakers? So you point to one play? So what? Even you said bad calls happen. The Lakers getting 27FTs in the 4th? And how many of those are Hack a Shaq? Hence, Webber/Divac in foul trouble. Did you factor those in? Of course not, because it doesn't help your argument.

No matter how you slice it, why can't you comprehend that the Lakers made the necessary plays in the series and Cowtown could not? The refs didn't help Horry make that 3, even if Vlade called it luck. I didn't see any refs guarding Peja for that game winner. As a matter of fact, there were no Lakers near him either. He choked. Kings choked. It happens. Lakers choked in 04 when they were heavily favored against the Pistons. I live. I move on. Accept it. Live in the now.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 08:08 PM
Apparently, I don't know how to comprehend. Except that you keep pointing to game 6. Peja airballing that game winner was relevant because it could have won them the series. You'd have to look at the series as a whole. If the NBA wanted the Lakers to win, how come they kept favoring the Kings the other games? Why not just call the whole series in favor of the Lakers? So you point to one play? So what? Even you said bad calls happen. The Lakers getting 27FTs in the 4th? And how many of those are Hack a Shaq? Hence, Webber/Divac in foul trouble. Did you factor those in? Of course not, because it doesn't help your argument.

No matter how you slice it, why can't you comprehend that the Lakers made the necessary plays in the series and Cowtown could not? The refs didn't help Horry make that 3, even if Vlade called it luck. I didn't see any refs guarding Peja for that game winner. As a matter of fact, there were no Lakers near him either. He choked. Kings choked. It happens. Lakers choked in 04 when they were heavily favored against the Pistons. I live. I move on. Accept it. Live in the now.

1) Comprehension issues from you are lacking.
2) You don't remember the game, apparently. hack-a-Shaq wasn't even used.

I can tell you don't have a clear representation of the game so I'll just let you believe what you want. You're the one pointing to one play.. aka Peja airballing. I said game 6 was notoriously famous for what many believed was rigged. Not games 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 7. Why bring up games that weren't blatantly rigged? I don't need it to help my argument. It's on a video for you to watch on Youtube. And maybe you don't understand a simple fact that I NEVER mentioned that the league wanted the Lakers to win the series. They simply rigged it so it could go to seven games.. winner of that series is irrelevant to me - which is why I said Peja missing the gamewinner in game 7 is irrelevant as it does not change the blatant horrible calls in game 6. Understand, amigo?

Chronz
09-08-2017, 01:15 AM
No, that's not what I said. Learn to comprehend.

The other games weren't completely lopsided. I already told you, games are called poorly frequently. Game 6 on the other hand was awful enough to where there are legitimate concerns on the integrity of refereeing.

I mean, just look at THIS one play:

https://youtu.be/oBnoHLc1qVU?t=2168

Are you telling me the REF with a clear UNOBSTRUCTED view seriously missed that elbow from Kobe? You're telling me the Lakers getting 27 FT's in the FOURTH QUARTER alone while refs put Chris Web/Divac on the bench via foul trouble was a coincidence? It wasn't even that it was a questionable refereeing job for the game. It was the fact that the majority of calls went against the Kings. Blatant obvious calls.

And what does Peja airballing a three have anything to do with game 6? Irrelevant.

The ref defended that play. Do you remember what his reasoning was?

His point was sound, badly officiated series in favor of the kings is all it was. You've yet to provide any of your alleged documentation

Chronz
09-08-2017, 01:17 AM
That's not the point. Bad plays and calls happen every game. Game 6 was undoubtedly so blatant it had to be some sort of rigging done. I'm not talking about bad calls in game 1-5/7. Those happen frequently. Game 6? No, that does not happen frequently. If it happened today, the blowback would be enormous. NBA knows they screwed up. I mean, this is the same commissioner who rigged the draft back during Ewing's year.
They were all badly officiated. You've yet to prove any of your theories so I'll stick to what I saw. Kings were favored by the officials and still choked that series away

FlashBolt
09-08-2017, 01:21 AM
They were all badly officiated. You've yet to prove any of your theories so I'll stick to what I saw. Kings were favored by the officials and still choked that series away

Which part don't you understand? Which was the worst officiated game of the series? Game 6. By far. You ask for evidence but you've yet to provide that the refs favored the Kings. Do that for me, will ya?

valade16
09-08-2017, 12:04 PM
They were all badly officiated. You've yet to prove any of your theories so I'll stick to what I saw. Kings were favored by the officials and still choked that series away

In Game 6? lol