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FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 11:51 PM
I forgot how we did it last year but thought it'd be just in-time to the top 20 NBA players by the time the NBA season begins. One vote per user.

Please vote based on expectations for next season + what happened last season.

Ex:
Judge Kyrie based on last year and how he'll play next year with his new team.
Judge Westbrook based on last year and how he'll co-exist with PG this upcoming season.

It's a bit more work but it'll lead to better discussions. Poll ends in three days so please get your votes in.

Scoots
09-01-2017, 12:34 AM
KD, from mid-december when the team started to figure out how to play together until he got hurt was incredible.

LeBron's work load has gone up, particularly early in the season so his efficiency stats may slip some.

Kawhi is going to have to do too much this year but he'll still be incredible.

5ass
09-01-2017, 01:05 AM
is this best player or best 2016- 2017 season?

FlashBolt
09-01-2017, 01:47 AM
is this best player or best 2016- 2017 season?

Use your best judgement I guess. It's for 2016-2017 and any predictions you have coming forward taking into consideration age, team situation, conference, health, etc.,

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 09:33 AM
LeBron easily, next!

Chronz
09-01-2017, 01:22 PM
Bron or kawhi easily

XshaqattackX
09-01-2017, 02:01 PM
I want to pick Kawhi because he's the most consistent two-way player in the nba right now but I'll give the slight edge to Durant since he's much more polished offensively

Allphakenny1
09-01-2017, 02:20 PM
Before the injury, Durant was having an amazing season. LeBron out played Durant through most of the playoffs, but Durant was definitely better in the finals. So if we are going off of last year I have Durant and I think he will continue it this season.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 02:23 PM
If you're not saying LeBron you're clearly fooling yourself. Come on guys, I thought we were better than this now. It's clear as day LeBron is still the best in the world.

DanG
09-01-2017, 02:28 PM
LeBron, based on last season.

This season Durant will most likely have insane efficiency numbers and win the championship again. Will that make him the best player? I don't know. I think he's the same player just in a better situation.

Kawhi is #3 for me. He's a beast on defense, but I think LeBron is a better passer, rebounder and has a higher basketball IQ.

FlashBolt
09-01-2017, 02:29 PM
If you're not saying LeBron you're clearly fooling yourself. Come on guys, I thought we were better than this now. It's clear as day LeBron is still the best in the world.

It's a discussion to be had. "LeBron is the best and you are fooling yourself" isn't convincing anyone. Anyhow, these threads seem dead. If there aren't at least 40 votes by the time the #1 is decided, I won't be continuing it.

XshaqattackX
09-01-2017, 03:33 PM
Yes, Lebron could very well still be the best player but I feel like he might limit himself next season and not overexert his body. He knows his team is still good enough to make the finals so he'll be relaxed this season and flip the switch when he needs too. Longevity is key. I think it's a big reason why he likes to play with other stars. Not only does it make it easier to win a championship or to play with his friends but it's less of a physical/mental stress on him

XshaqattackX
09-01-2017, 03:37 PM
If you're not saying LeBron you're clearly fooling yourself. Come on guys, I thought we were better than this now. It's clear as day LeBron is still the best in the world.

Yes, Lebron could very well still be the best player but I feel like he might limit himself next season and not overexert his body. He knows his team is still good enough to make the finals so he'll be relaxed this season and flip the switch when he needs too. Longevity is key. I think it's a big reason why he likes to play with other stars. Not only does it make it easier to win a championship or to play with his friends but it's less of a physical/mental stress on him

valade16
09-01-2017, 03:49 PM
LeBron in the playoffs: 30.1 PER | .649 TS% | 31.6 USG% | .275 WS/48 | 11.5 BPM | 2.5 VORP
Durant in the playoffs: 27.5 PER | .683 TS% | 28.3 USG% | .280 WS/48 | 8.7 BPM | 1.4 VORP
Kawhi in the playoffs: 31.5 PER | .672 TS% | 28.2 USG% | .314 WS/48 | 11.3 BPM | 1.4 VORP

tredigs
09-01-2017, 05:37 PM
Bron/Curry/Kawhi/KD are the top 4 in the league.

Scoots
09-01-2017, 11:21 PM
If you're not saying LeBron you're clearly fooling yourself. Come on guys, I thought we were better than this now. It's clear as day LeBron is still the best in the world.

For the regular season LeBron is not the best ... for the playoffs he is.

tredigs
09-01-2017, 11:50 PM
For the regular season LeBron is not the best ... for the playoffs he is.

When he's still top 1-5 every year in the reg season and leads teams to 1 or 2 seeds every year + going to the Finals every year (granted, East) and is going into year 15... that means he's the best period. It's not like he's taking 20 games off a year.

tredigs
09-01-2017, 11:54 PM
KD, from mid-december when the team started to figure out how to play together until he got hurt was incredible.

LeBron's work load has gone up, particularly early in the season so his efficiency stats may slip some.

Kawhi is going to have to do too much this year but he'll still be incredible.

Finals aside (where both were incredible but KD left open quite a bit more), Curry's still clearly the most important and impactful player on the Warriors, so KD doesn't make much sense as #1 to me. Especially considering Curry was the best player 3/4ths of the playoffs.

Dade County
09-02-2017, 12:13 AM
LeBron, based on last season.

This season Durant will most likely have insane efficiency numbers and win the championship again. Will that make him the best player?

Hell no... The man playing on a team were you can't help off of 4 of their players, along with they have the best 3 point duo EVER.

Also, in some games I didn't even see sweat on his face in the playoffs and Final's. .

LA4life24/8
09-02-2017, 12:15 AM
I think its still lebron but KD is right there. Kawhi and russ close behind them tho

FlashBolt
09-02-2017, 01:19 AM
Personally, I don't think it's close.

Regular season, LeBron doesn't even hide that he doesn't care. It's not fair to the others but I think every game he plays in = he's the best player.

Playoffs, same story here. Kevin Durant seems to be the consensus #2 but this is the same KD who just last year, was choking and forgotten as the 2nd best because of Stephen Curry. All of a sudden, he's on some incredibly stacked team and people act as if Durant is the savior of the Warriors. Can't attribute that much of that to KD.

Until there is an obvious drop-off in LeBron's ability where he isn't the best player every game, I'm sticking with that guy.

FlashBolt
09-02-2017, 01:21 AM
For the regular season LeBron is not the best ... for the playoffs he is.

Regular season has become a joke, tbh. It's feeling more and more irrelevant as the season runs through. Players/teams take games off just because they can. It's come to a point where we applaud a basketball player for actually playing hard out there - why is why RWB gets so much love around NBA fans. I mean, RWB was terrible in the playoffs.

Scoots
09-02-2017, 01:55 AM
Regular season has become a joke, tbh. It's feeling more and more irrelevant as the season runs through. Players/teams take games off just because they can. It's come to a point where we applaud a basketball player for actually playing hard out there - why is why RWB gets so much love around NBA fans. I mean, RWB was terrible in the playoffs.

From your OP I took it to mean who was best to start the 2017-2018 season ... that would be the regular season so LeBron's reasonable habit of playing at 80% for the regular season has to reduce his rating to start the season a bit.

mngopher35
09-02-2017, 12:07 PM
Lebron was still the best last year IMO. After that it gets tricky with curry/kawhi/Durant.

Durant is an interesting one because if people think he's the best in the league it would have to be the first time ever the best player in the league had someone on his own team better on each end of the floor right? Curry is the offensive engine and green defensive anchor on that team.

I feel like kawhi has a good chance to take over given he seems to keep improving, would be awesome if he improved even just a little bit from last season.

sens#11fan
09-02-2017, 01:00 PM
Lebron----KD/Kahwi------Russ/Curry/Harden

Jamiecballer
09-02-2017, 02:34 PM
It's interesting to hear so many people give voice to something I brought up last year and got lambasted for on here - how do you know just how good KD and Curry really are now.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

tredigs
09-03-2017, 12:22 AM
Lebron----KD/Kahwi------Russ/Curry/Harden
Oh how soon you guys forget.

tredigs
09-03-2017, 12:25 AM
It's interesting to hear so many people give voice to something I brought up last year and got lambasted for on here - how do you know just how good KD and Curry really are now.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

They're not playing college kids Jaime. You're a smart dude and know the game, you can see where they are at. They are two of the top offensive players in history at their peak. Their dominance alongside each other does not negate their worth. They won. Easily. That's what a contrarian would need to see in order to maintain their position, right?

Saddletramp
09-03-2017, 01:58 AM
Yes, Lebron could very well still be the best player but I feel like he might limit himself next season and not overexert his body. He knows his team is still good enough to make the finals so he'll be relaxed this season and flip the switch when he needs too. Longevity is key. I think it's a big reason why he likes to play with other stars. Not only does it make it easier to win a championship or to play with his friends but it's less of a physical/mental stress on him.

You started out talking about Lebron but then it morphed into talking about KD.

HandsOnTheWheel
09-03-2017, 03:23 AM
Lebron----KD/Kahwi------Russ/Curry/Harden

I have KL 2A and KD 2B but good post

XshaqattackX
09-03-2017, 09:53 AM
Yes, Lebron could very well still be the best player but I feel like he might limit himself next season and not overexert his body. He knows his team is still good enough to make the finals so he'll be relaxed this season and flip the switch when he needs too. Longevity is key. I think it's a big reason why he likes to play with other stars. Not only does it make it easier to win a championship or to play with his friends but it's less of a physical/mental stress on him.

You started out talking about Lebron but then it morphed into talking about KD.

Actually, I was only talking about Lebron but I can see how you can get them both confused lol

FlashBolt
09-03-2017, 01:00 PM
Not enough interest so I think it'll end at #1. If someone else wants to continue it, go for it.

Vinsanity115
09-06-2017, 10:05 PM
Leonard.

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JordansBulls
09-06-2017, 10:44 PM
Durant won finals mvp and outplayed Lebron in the finals including hitting the game winner on him.

Bostonjorge
09-06-2017, 11:37 PM
I got Westbrook. I feel like again he has a team to take down anyone including San Antonio, Cleveland or Houston. Only team that's to much is GS but he can steal a game or two with George and Adams as help.

Westbrook can take Durant off the dribble and finsh over Green. Don't know if any other player can do that without being overwhelmed by GS amazing defense.

KD/James/Leonard are all tied for second with the edge going to KD.

FlashBolt
09-06-2017, 11:53 PM
I got Westbrook. I feel like again he has a team to take down anyone including San Antonio, Cleveland or Houston. Only team that's to much is GS but he can steal a game or two with George and Adams as help.

Westbrook can take Durant off the dribble and finsh over Green. Don't know if any other player can do that without being overwhelmed by GS amazing defense.

KD/James/Leonard are all tied for second with the edge going to KD.

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.

Bostonjorge
09-06-2017, 11:58 PM
In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.
I got them 2a, 2b and 2c.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 12:01 AM
I got them 2a, 2b and 2c.

Then they aren't all tied..

valade16
09-07-2017, 12:06 AM
Durant won finals mvp and outplayed Lebron in the finals including hitting the game winner on him.

Yes he did. And if LeBron were on GS and KD on Cleveland LeBron would have outplayed KD. Something about being on a vastly superior team just makes the game easier.

Allphakenny1
09-07-2017, 12:36 AM
Yes he did. And if LeBron were on GS and KD on Cleveland LeBron would have outplayed KD. Something about being on a vastly superior team just makes the game easier.

Not necessarily, LeBron's stats would take a huge dive if he were on a team like the Warriors. He is absolutely one of the best players in the league, but he has not proven he can be as effective an off ball player as Durant and Curry. Both these players have proven to dominate with or without the ball. That is what makes the Warriors work. Either player could have much better stats, but it is their unselfishness to sacrifice stats that allows the Warriors to perform at their peak level. LeBron has never shown he can play and be elite in this style of basketball.

KD absolutely outplayed LeBron in the finals head to head. Also, at this point in their careers, KD is the far superior defender.

Allphakenny1
09-07-2017, 12:38 AM
I got Westbrook. I feel like again he has a team to take down anyone including San Antonio, Cleveland or Houston. Only team that's to much is GS but he can steal a game or two with George and Adams as help.

Westbrook can take Durant off the dribble and finsh over Green. Don't know if any other player can do that without being overwhelmed by GS amazing defense.

KD/James/Leonard are all tied for second with the edge going to KD.

Westbrook is not even a top five player in the league. Grant you I have him at number six, so he is close, but very far from number one.

JAZZNC
09-07-2017, 01:09 AM
Durant won finals mvp and outplayed Lebron in the finals including hitting the game winner on him.
You're such a LeBron hating clown. It's pretty obvious to any sane person that what you said is based on circumstance. But whatever, you're just a hater so this won't change your bias.

LeBron IMO is still the best basketball player on the planet. The next 3 players are the ones that the discussion gets difficult.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 01:21 AM
Not necessarily, LeBron's stats would take a huge dive if he were on a team like the Warriors. He is absolutely one of the best players in the league, but he has not proven he can be as effective an off ball player as Durant and Curry. Both these players have proven to dominate with or without the ball. That is what makes the Warriors work. Either player could have much better stats, but it is their unselfishness to sacrifice stats that allows the Warriors to perform at their peak level. LeBron has never shown he can play and be elite in this style of basketball.

KD absolutely outplayed LeBron in the finals head to head. Also, at this point in their careers, KD is the far superior defender.

Was KD the far superior defender last year? Nope.
Was KD outplaying LeBron last year? Nope.

The teams changed while the players both played at the same level. It's funny how Durant is elevated as #1 to some of you guys when just last year, the guy was choking the hell out of the last three games.

If LeBron was on the Warriors and KD on the Cavs, the beatdown would be unimaginable. Cavs would lose by thirty every game. No question about that.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 01:30 AM
You're such a LeBron hating clown. It's pretty obvious to any sane person that what you said is based on circumstance. But whatever, you're just a hater so this won't change your bias.

LeBron IMO is still the best basketball player on the planet. The next 3 players are the ones that the discussion gets difficult.

Westbrook vs Curry vs Durant vs Kawhi are all viable #2 players. But I think this season has been more difficult than ever judging a player. Circumstances surrounding these players are just too difficult to quantify.

valade16
09-07-2017, 01:18 PM
Not necessarily, LeBron's stats would take a huge dive if he were on a team like the Warriors. He is absolutely one of the best players in the league, but he has not proven he can be as effective an off ball player as Durant and Curry. Both these players have proven to dominate with or without the ball. That is what makes the Warriors work. Either player could have much better stats, but it is their unselfishness to sacrifice stats that allows the Warriors to perform at their peak level. LeBron has never shown he can play and be elite in this style of basketball.

KD absolutely outplayed LeBron in the finals head to head. Also, at this point in their careers, KD is the far superior defender.


Was KD the far superior defender last year? Nope.
Was KD outplaying LeBron last year? Nope.

The teams changed while the players both played at the same level. It's funny how Durant is elevated as #1 to some of you guys when just last year, the guy was choking the hell out of the last three games.

If LeBron was on the Warriors and KD on the Cavs, the beatdown would be unimaginable. Cavs would lose by thirty every game. No question about that.

Don't really need to add anything here. Flashbolt is 100% right on this one.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2017, 01:31 PM
Was KD the far superior defender last year? Nope.
Was KD outplaying LeBron last year? Nope.

The teams changed while the players both played at the same level. It's funny how Durant is elevated as #1 to some of you guys when just last year, the guy was choking the hell out of the last three games.

If LeBron was on the Warriors and KD on the Cavs, the beatdown would be unimaginable. Cavs would lose by thirty every game. No question about that.

even more simple:

Remove Durant from the Warriors, they still are favored to win it all
Remove James from Cleveland, they would fight to even make the playoffs (out west they would never make it)

mngopher35
09-07-2017, 02:14 PM
Ya I think with Durant it's tough because while he did play great in the finals it seemed like Curry is still the focal point of defenses and it leads to easy baskets/less attention leading to those better numbers. When he was on a team that truly needed him to help carry them or help win a series he tended to drop off big time the last couple playoffs. It's great he can succeed when things are this easy but I will always question his ability to lift up his game/team to another level until I actually see it.

I think some people just overrate him a little bit more due to the move of teams he made like Flash pointed to. It has less to do with him and more to do with the situation he put himself in.

Allphakenny1
09-07-2017, 02:35 PM
Was KD the far superior defender last year? Nope.
Was KD outplaying LeBron last year? Nope.

The teams changed while the players both played at the same level. It's funny how Durant is elevated as #1 to some of you guys when just last year, the guy was choking the hell out of the last three games.

If LeBron was on the Warriors and KD on the Cavs, the beatdown would be unimaginable. Cavs would lose by thirty every game. No question about that.

KD absolutely outplayed LeBron in the finals last year and played much better defense on LeBron than LeBron played on him.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2017, 02:42 PM
KD absolutely outplayed LeBron in the finals last year and played much better defense on LeBron than LeBron played on him.

imagine having Klay, Curry, and Green on your team. Ah, the freedom you would have...

Seriously, Durant had unimpeded lanes to the rim relentlessly. That never happens for anyone else.

BGeer091
09-07-2017, 02:45 PM
I think it's LeBron still. I think if LeBron was on the Warriors instead of Durant they'd lose at or around 5 games. While not losing a single playoff game.

Bostonjorge
09-07-2017, 03:17 PM
Westbrook led the league in scoring while being 3rd in assists.

The crazy part is he lead in scoring with zero floor spacing on his team. Adams and Roberson are good players(they do other things to help win games)but cant shoot. Olidepo can't shoot. So his SG and SF can't space anything yet Westbrook got to the rim and most games almost took the rim off the backboard.

He also found away to have elite passing with his offensive challenge team he had. He was the definition of carrying a offense and making something out of nothing.

The stats favor Westbrook. He also did it on a playoff team not a "good stats on a losing team". Only player KD is scared of.

valade16
09-07-2017, 03:21 PM
even more simple:

Remove Durant from the Warriors, they still are favored to win it all
Remove James from Cleveland, they would fight to even make the playoffs (out west they would never make it)

There are so many fun games you could play with this. Here's another. If you lined up all the players on GS and Cleveland by how good they are best to worst, and gave each team the option to swap the same numbered player (so 2nd best for 2nd best or 5th best for 5th best) how far down the list would the Warriors go outside Bron before they swapped someone?

Bron - KD
Kyrie - Steph (GS not swapping)
Love - Dray (GS not swapping)
TT - Klay (GS not swapping)
JR Smith - Iggy (GS not swapping)

After that would GS swap Livingston, West, Pachulia or Javale for any of the rest of Cleveland's roster? How far down before GS says "OK your guy is as good or better than our guy'?

Bostonjorge
09-07-2017, 03:24 PM
Westbrook is not even a top five player in the league. Grant you I have him at number six, so he is close, but very far from number one.
No way 5 guys out played him last year. He's easily the most important player to a team then anyone else in the league. Even Leonard had Manu win them a playoff game. No one is doing that in Okc.

Allphakenny1
09-07-2017, 03:41 PM
No way 5 guys out played him last year. He's easily the most important player to a team then anyone else in the league. Even Leonard had Manu win them a playoff game. No one is doing that in Okc.

By stats, of course not, but stats do not make you the better player. I take LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard and Harden over Westbrook.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 04:11 PM
KD absolutely outplayed LeBron in the finals last year and played much better defense on LeBron than LeBron played on him.

Yes, it's the result of stacking the teams so hard that your output and effectiveness increases. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. When you're at the park, you have to do more when you're on a bad team whereas if you're playing with the best players at the park, you're picking and choosing where you want to make elite impact at. It's funny you say KD outplayed LeBron in the Finals last year and that he played much better defense when the Warriors threw Iggy/Draymond/Klay on LeBron and all Cavs had in response to guarding KD was Shumpert and Richard Jefferson. Are you being remotely fair at all whatsoever?

XshaqattackX
09-07-2017, 04:24 PM
So if Lebron is the best player in the league. Who do you guys think impacts their team the most? Him? Westbrook? Harden? Leonard? Could Wall be in the discussion? And from the conversation I assume KD is not one of them which is duly noted lol.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2017, 04:26 PM
So if Lebron is the best player in the league. Who do you guys think impacts their team the most? Him? Westbrook? Harden? Leonard? Could Wall be in the discussion? And from the conversation I assume KD is not one of them which is duly noted lol.

Individually, nobody impacts the win column like LeBron James. Maybe ever. However, a counter discussion can be made, that his teams are overly dependent on his production, because of the way he plays and demands to be used, which causes some of his biggest failures as well.

mngopher35
09-07-2017, 04:36 PM
So if Lebron is the best player in the league. Who do you guys think impacts their team the most? Him? Westbrook? Harden? Leonard? Could Wall be in the discussion? And from the conversation I assume KD is not one of them which is duly noted lol.

Lebron could be the answer here again for sure. I will say what Westbrook did in carrying that team was unreal though, they were a -60.1 when he was off the court in the playoffs last year, +2.7 when he was on. They lost Durant yet still only lost 8 more games than the year before (remember cle after Lebron)?

All the guys you named are good options and Lebron could still be the answer but given his surroundings and the insane impact he had Westy has a solid case imo.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 04:42 PM
Individually, nobody impacts the win column like LeBron James. Maybe ever. However, a counter discussion can be made, that his teams are overly dependent on his production, because of the way he plays and demands to be used, which causes some of his biggest failures as well.

That's an old story, though. If you had any legitimate superstar on your team, the obvious strategy in today's game would be to surround your team with shooters. I used to have that same reaction to LeBron in that perhaps maybe his team suffering a huge drop-off when he isn't playing is strictly due to the system revolving basically on LeBron. Then I realized, well, what would you surround Kyrie with? Shooters. What does Houston surround Harden with? Shooters. What did OKC fail to do when they would have been a much better team? Get shooters. So why is it any different when it's LeBron out there vs Kyrie? If Kyrie and Love are truly great players, they wouldn't need to depend on LeBron. Great players always find a way to contribute. There is no counter argument - at least not anymore. To win in this league, you need to surround your team with shooters and an elite playmaker. It just so happens Warriors have more elite playmakers and that is why they won.

Hawkeye15
09-07-2017, 05:04 PM
That's an old story, though. If you had any legitimate superstar on your team, the obvious strategy in today's game would be to surround your team with shooters. I used to have that same reaction to LeBron in that perhaps maybe his team suffering a huge drop-off when he isn't playing is strictly due to the system revolving basically on LeBron. Then I realized, well, what would you surround Kyrie with? Shooters. What does Houston surround Harden with? Shooters. What did OKC fail to do when they would have been a much better team? Get shooters. So why is it any different when it's LeBron out there vs Kyrie? If Kyrie and Love are truly great players, they wouldn't need to depend on LeBron. Great players always find a way to contribute. There is no counter argument - at least not anymore. To win in this league, you need to surround your team with shooters and an elite playmaker. It just so happens Warriors have more elite playmakers and that is why they won.

Just because some teams have copied the LeBron formula doesn't make it the correct one. None of the teams you are describing win ****, nor will they. To win consistently, you need balance. But we know that.

XshaqattackX
09-07-2017, 05:06 PM
So if Lebron is the best player in the league. Who do you guys think impacts their team the most? Him? Westbrook? Harden? Leonard? Could Wall be in the discussion? And from the conversation I assume KD is not one of them which is duly noted lol.

Individually, nobody impacts the win column like LeBron James. Maybe ever. However, a counter discussion can be made, that his teams are overly dependent on his production, because of the way he plays and demands to be used, which causes some of his biggest failures as well.

To your counter discussion, you're right. Coaches, general managers, presidents of ops, and players themselves are starting to realize (for a while now) that having 1 star does not mean their good enough to win a championship. It happened to Lebron in his early Cleveland days, Paul George in Indiana, and I was a bit concerned OKC was going to do that to Westbrook before the PG13 trade.

I'm digressing a little bit but I think the main reason why OKC traded for Paul George is because they are afraid of Westbrook leaving. If Russell had committed already I believe they would have been the same team as last season with some minor changes. In other words, agreeing that teams are overly dependant on their production

XshaqattackX
09-07-2017, 05:18 PM
So if Lebron is the best player in the league. Who do you guys think impacts their team the most? Him? Westbrook? Harden? Leonard? Could Wall be in the discussion? And from the conversation I assume KD is not one of them which is duly noted lol.

Lebron could be the answer here again for sure. I will say what Westbrook did in carrying that team was unreal though, they were a -60.1 when he was off the court in the playoffs last year, +2.7 when he was on. They lost Durant yet still only lost 8 more games than the year before (remember cle after Lebron)?

All the guys you named are good options and Lebron could still be the answer but given his surroundings and the insane impact he had Westy has a solid case imo.

Were they really -60.1 without Westbrook lmao. And you made a good point. Cleveland after Lebron left was atrocious and frankly speaking OKC without Westbrook would be a lot worse especially them being in the west.

FlashBolt
09-07-2017, 05:44 PM
Just because some teams have copied the LeBron formula doesn't make it the correct one. None of the teams you are describing win ****, nor will they. To win consistently, you need balance. But we know that.

Warriors are winning, aren't they? I'm not sure what particular team you surround X player with other than shooters in this generation of basketball. The formula works because threes are what wins games these days. To win consistently, you do need balance. But shooting has to be the #1 priority. How else do you think the Warriors are winning? If they only took two's all game, do you think they would be as effective?

Allphakenny1
09-07-2017, 10:45 PM
Yes, it's the result of stacking the teams so hard that your output and effectiveness increases. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. When you're at the park, you have to do more when you're on a bad team whereas if you're playing with the best players at the park, you're picking and choosing where you want to make elite impact at. It's funny you say KD outplayed LeBron in the Finals last year and that he played much better defense when the Warriors threw Iggy/Draymond/Klay on LeBron and all Cavs had in response to guarding KD was Shumpert and Richard Jefferson. Are you being remotely fair at all whatsoever?

Couple of points here:

1. I do not think I am being unfair. LeBron has not been the best player in the regular season for four or five years now. People say it is because he does not try in the regular season and I absolutely buy that reasoning. However, they claim he is still the best in the league because he starts trying and outplaying those players who outplayed him in the regular season in the playoffs/finals.

In this case LeBron did not outplay Durant in the finals so that excuse is gone. Obviously, Durant has a better team, but why should we just say it does not count because he has a better team. That is what sounds unfair to me. I get that people hate Durant for the decision he made, but in the end he was better than LeBron this season. Also, LeBron is an all time great, but it seems like we find every excuse to keep him on top when others are not given that same respect.

2. Every time LeBron loses in a finals he is given credit for having crazy stats. People credit the stats and excuse the loss because he has inferior teammates. the problem with this logic is if LeBron had better teammates to win, his stats would be nowhere near as strong. The crazy stats do not mean as much in a loss, but LeBron constantly gets as much credit as possible for the stats without people understanding they mean less in losses.

3. Forget about any other defenders. Durant clearly was a better defender all year than LeBron and clearly better in the finals.

Allphakenny1
09-07-2017, 10:56 PM
Warriors are winning, aren't they? I'm not sure what particular team you surround X player with other than shooters in this generation of basketball. The formula works because threes are what wins games these days. To win consistently, you do need balance. But shooting has to be the #1 priority. How else do you think the Warriors are winning? If they only took two's all game, do you think they would be as effective?

I would argue two way players are far more important than shooters. Yes, that two way player is most likely a shooter, but I would sacrifice some shooting ability for a much better defender. The Warriors do not just simply outscore their opponents, they have been one of the best defensive teams in the league since Mark Jackson was their coach. They are arguably the best team in league history because they do not sacrifice on either end of the court with the vast majority of their rotation. Just shooters (like Korver for example) are not the answer if they suck on the defensive end. Green is the perfect example of this as he is just an ok three point shooter and he is usually left wide open to take them, but he is arguably the best defender in the league.

valade16
09-08-2017, 12:08 PM
Couple of points here:

1. I do not think I am being unfair. LeBron has not been the best player in the regular season for four or five years now. People say it is because he does not try in the regular season and I absolutely buy that reasoning. However, they claim he is still the best in the league because he starts trying and outplaying those players who outplayed him in the regular season in the playoffs/finals.

In this case LeBron did not outplay Durant in the finals so that excuse is gone. Obviously, Durant has a better team, but why should we just say it does not count because he has a better team. That is what sounds unfair to me. I get that people hate Durant for the decision he made, but in the end he was better than LeBron this season. Also, LeBron is an all time great, but it seems like we find every excuse to keep him on top when others are not given that same respect.

2. Every time LeBron loses in a finals he is given credit for having crazy stats. People credit the stats and excuse the loss because he has inferior teammates. the problem with this logic is if LeBron had better teammates to win, his stats would be nowhere near as strong. The crazy stats do not mean as much in a loss, but LeBron constantly gets as much credit as possible for the stats without people understanding they mean less in losses.

3. Forget about any other defenders. Durant clearly was a better defender all year than LeBron and clearly better in the finals.

Nobody is saying it doesn't count. You don't seem to understand the principle of cause and effect. Having a better team will cause someone to be able to outplay their opponents.

You seem to misunderstand the argument entirely. Nobody is saying KD didn't outplay LeBron in the Finals. They are saying his play is a direct result of having the far superior team.

Think of it as a shooting competition. You are given a pistol with no sight and told to hit a target 300 yards away as many times as you can. I am given a sniper rifle with a laser scope and told to do the same. Who is going to hit the target more? Obviously me.

Your argument is because I outshot you I am the superior shooter. Our argument is I outshot you because I had superior equipment.

Allphakenny1
09-08-2017, 02:22 PM
Nobody is saying it doesn't count. You don't seem to understand the principle of cause and effect. Having a better team will cause someone to be able to outplay their opponents.

You seem to misunderstand the argument entirely. Nobody is saying KD didn't outplay LeBron in the Finals. They are saying his play is a direct result of having the far superior team.

Think of it as a shooting competition. You are given a pistol with no sight and told to hit a target 300 yards away as many times as you can. I am given a sniper rifle with a laser scope and told to do the same. Who is going to hit the target more? Obviously me.

Your argument is because I outshot you I am the superior shooter. Our argument is I outshot you because I had superior equipment.

But how do you know that is the only reason why Durant outplayed LeBron? I have understood what they were saying the whole time, but I do not see it as a fact. It seems like they just want to give LeBron the benefit of the doubt, where where others do not get that same respect.

valade16
09-08-2017, 03:24 PM
But how do you know that is the only reason why Durant outplayed LeBron? I have understood what they were saying the whole time, but I do not see it as a fact. It seems like they just want to give LeBron the benefit of the doubt, where where others do not get that same respect.

Because their head to head numbers are virtually identical except for that one series. At that point we need to ask ourselves, what changed?

That is even true of recent history. The season before when KD was in OKC their head to head LeBron outplayed KD.

G1:
Bron: 25 pts, 11/22 FG, 7 reb., 11 ast, 3 stl, +22 +/-
KD: 26 pts, 10/21 FG, 5 reb., 3 ast, 3 blck, -17 +/-

G2:
Bron: 33 pts, 12/27 FG, 9 reb, 11 ast, 2 stl, +5 +/-
KD: 25 pts, 7/17 FG, 3 reb, 5 ast, 2 blck, -2 +/-


We have an entire careers worth of evidence saying when they play head to head LeBron generally outplays KD and then a 5 game sample size with the most talented team ever where KD outplays Bron and we are going to say that wasn't a massive factor in the difference?

More-Than-Most
09-08-2017, 03:46 PM
Because their head to head numbers are virtually identical except for that one series. At that point we need to ask ourselves, what changed?

That is even true of recent history. The season before when KD was in OKC their head to head LeBron outplayed KD.

G1:
Bron: 25 pts, 11/22 FG, 7 reb., 11 ast, 3 stl, +22 +/-
KD: 26 pts, 10/21 FG, 5 reb., 3 ast, 3 blck, -17 +/-

G2:
Bron: 33 pts, 12/27 FG, 9 reb, 11 ast, 2 stl, +5 +/-
KD: 25 pts, 7/17 FG, 3 reb, 5 ast, 2 blck, -2 +/-


We have an entire careers worth of evidence saying when they play head to head LeBron generally outplays KD and then a 5 game sample size with the most talented team ever where KD outplays Bron and we are going to say that wasn't a massive factor in the difference?

It wasnt hard to see lebron cant sit where KD rests a good bit of the 3rd and the warriors either maintain or extend their lead... then a gassed lebron who plays the majority has to carry the load for his team offensively and guard a fresh KD... Seems legit.

FlashBolt
09-08-2017, 05:39 PM
But how do you know that is the only reason why Durant outplayed LeBron? I have understood what they were saying the whole time, but I do not see it as a fact. It seems like they just want to give LeBron the benefit of the doubt, where where others do not get that same respect.

Newsflash: LeBron gets the benefit of the doubt because he has earned it. What did KD exactly earn? A championship that was foregone before he ever actually played a game for the Warriors? See, that's why NBA fans are upset about his decision. They felt he was great enough to win on another competitive team but chose a team that would create a lopsided advantage. Btw, go check the facts. LeBron sits in the Finals, his team gives up a +/- of 12 within two minutes. Durant sits and his team ends up ahead. You tell me who's getting the better treatment.

More-Than-Most
09-08-2017, 06:00 PM
Newsflash: LeBron gets the benefit of the doubt because he has earned it. What did KD exactly earn? A championship that was foregone before he ever actually played a game for the Warriors? See, that's why NBA fans are upset about his decision. They felt he was great enough to win on another competitive team but chose a team that would create a lopsided advantage. Btw, go check the facts. LeBron sits in the Finals, his team gives up a +/- of 12 within two minutes. Durant sits and his team ends up ahead. You tell me who's getting the better treatment.

the best part is that he would have likely made the finals if he didnt choke... so he made sure he went to a team that he could rest a good bit of the game and destroy when needed. It was smart but it was/will be a ***** move.

Chronz
09-08-2017, 07:55 PM
Nobody is saying it doesn't count. You don't seem to understand the principle of cause and effect. Having a better team will cause someone to be able to outplay their opponents.

You seem to misunderstand the argument entirely. Nobody is saying KD didn't outplay LeBron in the Finals. They are saying his play is a direct result of having the far superior team.

Think of it as a shooting competition. You are given a pistol with no sight and told to hit a target 300 yards away as many times as you can. I am given a sniper rifle with a laser scope and told to do the same. Who is going to hit the target more? Obviously me.

Your argument is because I outshot you I am the superior shooter. Our argument is I outshot you because I had superior equipment.
Remember when Paul pierce "outplayed " Kobe that one year? Or when either Chauncey or Rip did?

FlashBolt
09-08-2017, 09:21 PM
Didn't Kyrie outplay Curry in 2016 Finals? Could've swore he did...

JordansBulls
09-08-2017, 09:24 PM
You're such a LeBron hating clown. It's pretty obvious to any sane person that what you said is based on circumstance. But whatever, you're just a hater so this won't change your bias.

LeBron IMO is still the best basketball player on the planet. The next 3 players are the ones that the discussion gets difficult.

How so? Lebron didn't have the best stats in the season nor playoffs nor did he win the title.

tredigs
09-09-2017, 12:22 AM
Warriors are winning, aren't they? I'm not sure what particular team you surround X player with other than shooters in this generation of basketball. The formula works because threes are what wins games these days. To win consistently, you do need balance. But shooting has to be the #1 priority. How else do you think the Warriors are winning? If they only took two's all game, do you think they would be as effective?

The Warriors are incredible defensively and have maybe the top 2 3pt shooters in history, but they definitely don't take the most threes. That goes to the Rox and Cavs along with a couple other teams. And the Warriors don't shoot the highest percentage either. That's the Spurs and again the Cavs. The Warriors dominance is heavily balanced between defense, transition dominance, 3pt shooting and the half court game + midrange/paint security. Beyond their talent level they currently have over everyone, that is why they have established a dominance over the league the past 4 years. No weaknesses.

Bostonjorge
09-09-2017, 01:28 PM
Because their head to head numbers are virtually identical except for that one series. At that point we need to ask ourselves, what changed?

That is even true of recent history. The season before when KD was in OKC their head to head LeBron outplayed KD.

G1:
Bron: 25 pts, 11/22 FG, 7 reb., 11 ast, 3 stl, +22 +/-
KD: 26 pts, 10/21 FG, 5 reb., 3 ast, 3 blck, -17 +/-

G2:
Bron: 33 pts, 12/27 FG, 9 reb, 11 ast, 2 stl, +5 +/-
KD: 25 pts, 7/17 FG, 3 reb, 5 ast, 2 blck, -2 +/-


We have an entire careers worth of evidence saying when they play head to head LeBron generally outplays KD and then a 5 game sample size with the most talented team ever where KD outplays Bron and we are going to say that wasn't a massive factor in the difference?

It was more then just "out playing". KD's god like efficiency alone made Jordan even question if he could of done the same. KD made history and when history is made it's a HUGE deal.

No worries tho. James will get his revenge in 2019.

Bostonjorge
09-27-2017, 06:55 AM
I vote Westbrook here at #1. Look up last years seaon triple double average.

JordansBulls
09-29-2017, 11:53 PM
You're such a LeBron hating clown. It's pretty obvious to any sane person that what you said is based on circumstance. But whatever, you're just a hater so this won't change your bias.

LeBron IMO is still the best basketball player on the planet. The next 3 players are the ones that the discussion gets difficult.

Is what I said false?

JordansBulls
09-29-2017, 11:54 PM
How did Lebron get the top spot without the best stats, nor the best record, nor the league mvp, nor the finals mvp? Is he getting the Kobe treatment from 2006-2008?

More-Than-Most
09-30-2017, 04:10 AM
How did Lebron get the top spot without the best stats, nor the best record, nor the league mvp, nor the finals mvp? Is he getting the Kobe treatment from 2006-2008?

look at the playoffs... then look at his lack of help... then use your brain and use logic... and then look at how the teams suffers horribly when he isnt on the floor... I will wait.

JordansBulls
09-30-2017, 08:12 PM
look at the playoffs... then look at his lack of help... then use your brain and use logic... and then look at how the teams suffers horribly when he isnt on the floor... I will wait.

Who can't beat those teams he played? In the West he would not even had HCA in any series and would had played GSW in round 2. And what do you mean look at his help? Kyrie, Love, Deron Williams, JR Smith, Tristan Thompson, that squad was loaded. He had a dude who averaged 29 ppg in the finals on his squad.

More-Than-Most
10-02-2017, 05:27 AM
Who can't beat those teams he played? In the West he would not even had HCA in any series and would had played GSW in round 2. And what do you mean look at his help? Kyrie, Love, Deron Williams, JR Smith, Tristan Thompson, that squad was loaded. He had a dude who averaged 29 ppg in the finals on his squad.

that didnt play defense... loved to ISO and never was able to get the cavs wins while lebron was sitting because of his one way play... His squad wasnt loaded.. the warriors are loaded... the thunder were loaded... the cavs were the 4th best team in most peoples eyes behind the thunder/warriors and right there with the spurs... The cavs are only considered loaded because Lebron.

tredigs
10-02-2017, 06:43 PM
that didnt play defense... loved to ISO and never was able to get the cavs wins while lebron was sitting because of his one way play... His squad wasnt loaded.. the warriors are loaded... the thunder were loaded... the cavs were the 4th best team in most peoples eyes behind the thunder/warriors and right there with the spurs... The cavs are only considered loaded because Lebron.

Lol the Cavs are/were loaded. If you have multiple All Stars in your prime outside of your best player - especially in a weak conference - you are loaded. The Cavs have been the preseason title favorites in Vegas 2 of the past 3 seasons.

More-Than-Most
10-02-2017, 07:22 PM
Lol the Cavs are/were loaded. If you have multiple All Stars in your prime outside of your best player - especially in a weak conference - you are loaded. The Cavs have been the preseason title favorites in Vegas 2 of the past 3 seasons.

without lebron they dont make the playoffs... they are loaded because of lebron... Love is a bad fit and kyrie is a 1 way player that cant carry the load... its not even remotely close to a loaded team without Lebron.

tredigs
10-02-2017, 07:33 PM
without lebron they dont make the playoffs... they are loaded because of lebron... Love is a bad fit and kyrie is a 1 way player that cant carry the load... its not even remotely close to a loaded team without Lebron.

Lmfao - Yes, with a Jae Crowder level small forward in Lebron's stead they certainly make the playoffs in the East, most likely HCA. Name me even 5 teams in the East in the past 3 seasons that you can take away their top player and they have a better cast than the Cavs. I'll be waiting (HINT: There are none).

tredigs
10-02-2017, 07:39 PM
^Bear in mind this is a team built specifically by Lebron for Lebron.

FlashBolt
10-03-2017, 10:44 PM
^Bear in mind this is a team built specifically by Lebron for Lebron.

That's a terrible argument. A team built specifically for LeBron is pretty much shooters. That's literally every contender in the league... This notion that the team is built for him makes zero sense when you consider that if you were building around Kyrie, that would be the exact same team you would want. It's just Kyrie doesn't understand how to utilize them and stop playing ISO so it never works out. And I'm not sure how you would build around K.Love but we found out in Minny that it isn't a good idea anyways.

tredigs
10-03-2017, 11:34 PM
That's a terrible argument. A team built specifically for LeBron is pretty much shooters. That's literally every contender in the league... This notion that the team is built for him makes zero sense when you consider that if you were building around Kyrie, that would be the exact same team you would want. It's just Kyrie doesn't understand how to utilize them and stop playing ISO so it never works out. And I'm not sure how you would build around K.Love but we found out in Minny that it isn't a good idea anyways.

Lmao - "The notion that you that this team is built for him makes zero sense", until you realize that obviously the team was built for him and everybody knows this. Love is a far better compliment for Lebron than Andrew Wiggins. Hence that trade going down for his arrival (we can pretend like Lebron did not sign off on this before making his decision, but we all know otherwise). Love himself was certainly not utilized to the best of his personal abilities - we know that much - but it benefited Lebron and the team to play the way they did so that is what they did. He wanted JR/TT, they signed/resigned JR/TT. He complained publicly about a lack of shooting so they sent pieces + a 1st for Kyle Korver. He complained publicly about a lack of playmaking so they got Deron Williams. The list goes on.

They've gone WAY above any other team in terms of the salary cap in order to keep him happy. It's not necessarily a good or bad thing (except they now have no future if he leaves), it's just a reality.

FlashBolt
10-04-2017, 01:20 AM
Lmao - "The notion that you that this team is built for him makes zero sense", until you realize that obviously the team was built for him and everybody knows this. Love is a far better compliment for Lebron than Andrew Wiggins. Hence that trade going down for his arrival (we can pretend like Lebron did not sign off on this before making his decision, but we all know otherwise). Love himself was certainly not utilized to the best of his personal abilities - we know that much - but it benefited Lebron and the team to play the way they did so that is what they did. He wanted JR/TT, they signed/resigned JR/TT. He complained publicly about a lack of shooting so they sent pieces + a 1st for Kyle Korver. He complained publicly about a lack of playmaking so they got Deron Williams. The list goes on.

They've gone WAY above any other team in terms of the salary cap in order to keep him happy. It's not necessarily a good or bad thing (except they now have no future if he leaves), it's just a reality.

It was built for him just like it should have been built if you had to surround a team around KD, Russ, Harden, etc.,
It's literally the system of "Surround LeBron with spacing" and that's what Harden was surrounded with, too. Yes, those moves were done because LeBron pressured them but Kyrie should excel under the same roster but he never really did when LeBron was off the court. I mean, what would you surround Kyrie with? Shooters, right? That's literally the option most teams take when they have a ball dominant player.

More-Than-Most
10-04-2017, 06:46 AM
^Bear in mind this is a team built specifically by Lebron for Lebron.

gtfo with this stupid argument... always the same dumb argument time and time again... a team built for lebron is a team built for the majority of other top players... its basically shooters... Such a stupid discussion to even have

IKnowHoops
10-06-2017, 11:24 AM
Lmao - "The notion that you that this team is built for him makes zero sense", until you realize that obviously the team was built for him and everybody knows this. Love is a far better compliment for Lebron than Andrew Wiggins. Hence that trade going down for his arrival (we can pretend like Lebron did not sign off on this before making his decision, but we all know otherwise). Love himself was certainly not utilized to the best of his personal abilities - we know that much - but it benefited Lebron and the team to play the way they did so that is what they did. He wanted JR/TT, they signed/resigned JR/TT. He complained publicly about a lack of shooting so they sent pieces + a 1st for Kyle Korver. He complained publicly about a lack of playmaking so they got Deron Williams. The list goes on.

They've gone WAY above any other team in terms of the salary cap in order to keep him happy. It's not necessarily a good or bad thing (except they now have no future if he leaves), it's just a reality.

Dude, they are are the Cavs. They had nothin going before him either. They are absurdly blessed to have him. Not all in on your "team built for Lebron" argument. Switch him with KD and that it a much better team "built for lebron". And when compared to Warriors, the team is not stacked. Bron is the only player on the Cavs who could start on the warriors so at the end of the day, with the Warriors current construction, nobody is stacked accept them. Unless we have to come up with a word bigger and stronger than stacked. And keep it real, without Lebrun on the floor, Cavs couldn't even play even ball for 30 sec no matter who was on the court for the Dubs. The two teams minus there best player are so far apart.

tredigs
10-06-2017, 11:32 AM
Wow - I don't have time for the stan nonsense. Here, argue with those instead you three:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everyones-a-role-player-when-they-play-with-lebron/

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/lebron-built-the-cavaliers-roster-and-now-is-complaining-about-it-012617

Chronz
10-06-2017, 12:51 PM
No sense in talking to these stans tre, they love bron more than I love Shaq and tmac combined I guess

WaDe03
10-06-2017, 01:00 PM
The only people that claim LeBron isn't the best player in the world are people who either don't like him, or people just trying to be different and claiming they're "woke." It's still pretty easily LeBron.

FlashBolt
10-06-2017, 01:34 PM
LeBron complained about a lack of PG options.. which is true. When Kyrie went to the bench, they didn't have Deron yet so they had to go to Felder or force Shump to play PG. He also took a look at the Warriors and was disgruntled at the fact that they didn't get better at all. It doesn't take a genius to see that a team built for LeBron, is a team that you would want to build around your first option. You guys act as if Kyrie is going to dominate now in Boston because LeBron isn't there. And the reason Kevin Love struggles is because he has obvious issues with defense and he's too slow for a small-ball team. He doesn't score efficiently enough to where you can throw him the ball and expect results. But you still haven't answered the question:

If you were building around KD, who do you surround him with? Westbrook? Harden? One guy who can handle the ball and score, draws all the attention, and gets shooters involved. What type of NBA have you guys been watching? The atmosphere involves shooting #1 to win a championship. When's the last time a team won that wasn't good at shooting the ball?