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View Full Version : Cavs and Celtics finalize deal after Boston adds 2nd round pick in 2020 - WOJ



FlashBolt
08-30-2017, 10:31 PM
To clarify everything:

Cavs get:
2018 1st round pick
2020 2nd round pick
Isaiah Thomas
Jae Crowder
Ante Zicic

Boston get:
Kyrie Irving

Source:
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903082455355330560

Link is to Woj's twitter account if you hate clicking links.

Midnightbottle
08-30-2017, 10:32 PM
That second round pick was well worth wasting eight days

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kobe4thewinbang
08-30-2017, 10:35 PM
Still so weird to see the Celtics get only one item in return. Granted, it's the highest value item involved, but atypical. Glad it's done!

FlashBolt
08-30-2017, 10:36 PM
That second round pick was well worth wasting eight days

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Hey, you never know when that 2nd round pick might be the deal-breaker in a trade.

Balltime
08-30-2017, 10:36 PM
lol 2nd round pick

Bostonjorge
08-30-2017, 10:41 PM
Cleveland got a great deal

BoSox47
08-30-2017, 10:42 PM
I wonder how bad IT4 his really is if Cavs balked like this for so long. Hearing he could miss up to half the season if not more. Brooklyn pick is the biggest part of this deal. Could even argue that Crowders contract makes him more valuable than IT4 too.

BoSox47
08-30-2017, 10:45 PM
Cleveland got a great deal

Really depends on what happens with the Brooklyn pick and IT4.

There is also a pretty good chance the Brooklyn pick outside the top 5 and IT4 doesnt play a majority of the year/ struggles post injury.

europagnpilgrim
08-30-2017, 10:46 PM
lol 2nd round pick

Never know it could get you a Cliff Robinson/Draymond Green/Rashard Lewis/D Jordan/Millsap/Gilbert Arenas/Ginobili type, I know its a long shot but gotta throw the dice on the crap table when drafting in any sport

those 2nd round picks go a long way when you have top notch scouting/GM's

Scoots
08-30-2017, 10:53 PM
2020 ... that's a real game changer.

PAOboston
08-30-2017, 10:53 PM
I think both teams did okay here.

The C's get the best player in deal who's age makes fits their developmental timeline.

Cavs get 1 season of IT (or some of it at least), a cost controlled role player, and a possible lottery pick, and luxury tax savings.

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likemystylez
08-30-2017, 11:04 PM
How long until the cavs come back to the table and try to re negotiate again? wtf does a second round pick do for the cavs if IT is as bad as they say he is?

likemystylez
08-30-2017, 11:05 PM
2020 ... that's a real game changer.

my thoughts exactly, LOL if IT is playing in mid November the cavs are gonna look so petty

5ass
08-30-2017, 11:05 PM
when you try to play hardball with danny ainge... LOL

Still a good trade for the Cavs though. you just need thomas to come back 100% by play off. Whats the update? is he going to have surgery?

mrblisterdundee
08-30-2017, 11:06 PM
I though the Cavaliers could have pushed for Rozier.

LA4life24/8
08-30-2017, 11:08 PM
Wow all that for a 2nd rounder lol... whatevs both teams ended up getting what they wanted and the big part

THE DEAL DIDNT FALL THROUGH

Neither team could really afford for it to fall thru at this point anyway. Glad its done

likemystylez
08-30-2017, 11:12 PM
Wow all that for a 2nd rounder lol... whatevs both teams ended up getting what they wanted and the big part

THE DEAL DIDNT FALL THROUGH

Neither team could really afford for it to fall thru at this point anyway. Glad its done

it may not be done, cavs might come back to the table again

Jeffy25
08-30-2017, 11:12 PM
If Irving extends with Boston, great deal for them, totally justified.

If he walks, and they don't win a chip in these 2 years....ouch



If IT is useless, and Bron walks, then that pick is essential for the Cavs.
If IT is good, the Cavs have a real shot in the Finals, and can maybe talk both into continuing in Cle.


I see more upside for the Celtics, and feel like they bailed the Cavs out of bad situation. If Bron really walks this off-season, then you have that top pick, let IT walk, and the Cavs are no longer the issue next year. The Celtics would be walking into the Finals for years to come without issue.


But they are a better team with Kyrie.

They are now dependent on Kyrie being healthy and extending for this deal to have made sense.

likemystylez
08-30-2017, 11:13 PM
I though the Cavaliers could have pushed for Rozier.

LOl theres still time, I wouldnt be suprised if the cavs have 3rd thoughts and want to re negotiate tomorrow

Dade County
08-30-2017, 11:16 PM
I think both teams did okay here.

The C's get the best player in deal who's age makes fits their developmental timeline.

Cavs get 1 season of IT (or some of it at least), a cost controlled role player, and a possible lottery pick, and luxury tax savings.

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If Kyrie leaves after two season, how would you look back at this deal/ judge this deal?



If Irving extends with Boston, great deal for them, totally justified.

If he walks, and they don't win a chip in these 2 years....ouch

Yes very tough in need.

And you have tp factor in the Media will be on Boston side, so they will try to vilify Kyrie. Even though they know that Boston wasn't on Kyrie list and his camp already informed everyone that he isnt committing to any team.



If IT is useless, and Bron walks, then that pick is essential for the Cavs.
If IT is good, the Cavs have a real shot in the Finals, and can maybe talk both into continuing in Cle.

I believe Lbj has already planned everything out. So if he already set things up, IT balling out want really factor in. The moves Lbj makes are all business moves, corporation style.



I see more upside for the Celtics, and feel like they bailed the Cavs out of bad situation. If Bron really walks this off-season, then you have that top pick, let IT walk, and the Cavs are no longer the issue next year.

We'll if Cav's do trade the Nets pick for an All Star player, and Lbj, IT & that All star player ar back on the Cav's next season. Then way, Lbj will be going back to the Final's again & again.



The Celtics would be walking into the Finals for years to come without issue.

I'm pretty sure Miami will have something to say about that.

IKnowHoops
08-30-2017, 11:22 PM
PG IT, Rose
SG Bron, Wade, JR
SF Melo, Crowder, Green
PF Love, TT
C Cousins, Zizeck

This could be the playoff squad. If this team gets together and doesn't win, which very well could/ would happen...then lololololololololol

dhopisthename
08-30-2017, 11:24 PM
lol 2020 2nd round pick

PAOboston
08-30-2017, 11:25 PM
If Kyrie leaves after two season, how would you look back at this deal/ judge this deal?Well, that would be bad. But I don't think it will happen since the Cs will likely extend him since hell be 27 at that point.

Time will ultimately tell for both sides.

How would the deal look like for Cleveland if IT misses most of this year, Cavs get bounced in the playoffs, IT/LeBron leave next summer, and the Brooklyn picks ends up closer to 10th pick rather than 1st?

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bagwell368
08-30-2017, 11:26 PM
The return shows that the C's didn't try to pull a fast one.

The Cavs are going to suffer in the future for this move, probably well in excess of the value of the deal.

Get Rozier? He's the only true PG on the roster outside of IT - who would probably just opt for surgery rather than return.

I get a kick out of people claiming the Cavs won the deal.

IT - broken down, undersized player for 1 year cheap, might be good value, not at all clear, doubt he matches last year

Crowder - nice player, a blocking factor in Boston.

Z - not ready for the NBA this year, maybe develops into a fair back up in 2-3 years.

Pick - draft the next Tim Duncan - big time win; draft the next Darko? C's kill it.

Irving will be a better player in Boston IMO - Stevens will get him to play D, and Stevens will get him to shoot at least twice as many 3's. KY is already an elite playoff performer - something nobody coming from the C's is.

If IT can't play the first 30 games of the year, you have two old PG's to hold the fort, that 2nd rounder will help..... not.

metswon69
08-30-2017, 11:32 PM
So why did the Cavs play hard ball here? For a 2nd round pick in 2020?

IKnowHoops
08-30-2017, 11:33 PM
The return shows that the C's didn't try to pull a fast one.

The Cavs are going to suffer in the future for this move, probably well in excess of the value of the deal.

Get Rozier? He's the only true PG on the roster outside of IT - who would probably just opt for surgery rather than return.

I get a kick out of people claiming the Cavs won the deal.

IT - broken down, undersized player for 1 year cheap, might be good value, not at all clear, doubt he matches last year

Crowder - nice player, a blocking factor in Boston.

Z - not ready for the NBA this year, maybe develops into a fair back up in 2-3 years.

Pick - draft the next Tim Duncan - big time win; draft the next Darko? C's kill it.

Irving will be a better player in Boston IMO - Stevens will get him to play D, and Stevens will get him to shoot at least twice as many 3's. KY is already an elite playoff performer - something nobody coming from the C's is.

If IT can't play the first 30 games of the year, you have two old PG's to hold the fort, that 2nd rounder will help..... not.

I guess you fail to realize that the Cavs are often a better team without a Kyrie on the floor. Game 3 Indiana I think it was. Down all game by 15 with Kyrie. Take him out and just put in a pass first PG and they run the Pacers off the court. Kyrie will never be as good or as efficient as IT was last year. Gonna be fun watching Boston fans come to that realization next season.

j-bay
08-30-2017, 11:34 PM
PG IT, Rose
SG Bron, Wade, JR
SF Melo, Crowder, Green
PF Love, TT
C Cousins, Zizeck

This could be the playoff squad. If this team gets together and doesn't win, which very well could/ would happen...then lololololololololol

It would be stupid of the Cavs to trade the Brooklyn pick for one year of Cousins. I'm telling you, Washington will probably clear cap space for a Wall-Cousins reunion.

Dade County
08-30-2017, 11:38 PM
Well, that would be bad. But I don't think it will happen since the Cs will likely extend him since hell be 27 at that point.

Time will ultimately tell for both sides.


?

All depends if Kyrie wants to be there or not.




How would the deal look like for Cleveland if IT misses most of this year, Cavs get bounced in the playoffs, IT/LeBron leave next summer, and the Brooklyn picks ends up closer to 10th pick rather than 1st?

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Lbj isn't getting bounced in the East conference playoff round. IT can miss half the year, and that wouldn't be a problem for the Cav's.

& the Nets pick could be a 5-7 pick, I don't believe the 10th pick though.

IKnowHoops
08-30-2017, 11:39 PM
Furthermore, Kyrie's b-ball IQ is laughably bad. He's like Kobe in that he decides he's gonna shoot before the shot clock starts and no defense will make him alter that plan. Thomas is much smarter and a better shooter. Kyrie has more ball skills than anyone, but what good is brainless skill that has no clue how to play winning basketball. Cavs will beat the Celtics worse this year than last.

IKnowHoops
08-30-2017, 11:41 PM
It would be stupid of the Cavs to trade the Brooklyn pick for one year of Cousins. I'm telling you, Washington will probably clear cap space for a Wall-Cousins reunion.

You act like the Cavs have any other choice than to play to win a ring today and not care about tomorrow.

M.L.G.A.
08-30-2017, 11:48 PM
I guess you fail to realize that the Cavs are often a better team without a Kyrie on the floor. Game 3 Indiana I think it was. Down all game by 15 with Kyrie. Take him out and just put in a pass first PG and they run the Pacers off the court. Kyrie will never be as good or as efficient as IT was last year. Gonna be fun watching Boston fans come to that realization next season.

"you DON'T know hoops"

It was never about pulling a fast one, it is the art of negotiations. It was Cleveland trying to squeeze as much as they can since they put Cs at a point of no return. I mentioned this in the other thread, there were no surprises about IT's hip, Ainge came out the following day admittely saying his hip had a little to do something with trading him (it really was not having to choose to pay a fan favorite 5'9" pg $25M+ was the real reason); this was as expected in terms of Cs providing further assets...

FINALLY Ainge made a good transaction....guppy

homie564
08-30-2017, 11:54 PM
I guess you fail to realize that the Cavs are often a better team without a Kyrie on the floor. Game 3 Indiana I think it was. Down all game by 15 with Kyrie. Take him out and just put in a pass first PG and they run the Pacers off the court. Kyrie will never be as good or as efficient as IT was last year. Gonna be fun watching Boston fans come to that realization next season.

Funny.. a lot of people said the same about IT in Boston... the Celtics won a playoff game in Cleveland without Isaiah... it was crazy then And it's crazy now. If you think you're getting a pass first PG too, you have a major disappointment in store.

Also side note: everyone who was in love with Crowder and bashing Smart... I actually heard today an interesting stat that Smart was actually a better 3 point shooter than Crowder in the post season... Crowder actually shot 35% from 3 in playoffs and Smart shot nearly 40%. It actually feels that Smart tends to show up more than Crowder for bigger games too. I know, random, but I thought this was interesting...Kind of shows a little insight into why Celtics fans were just saying that Crowder is an overrated player just because of his great contract.


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FlashBolt
08-30-2017, 11:59 PM
PG IT, Rose
SG Bron, Wade, JR
SF Melo, Crowder, Green
PF Love, TT
C Cousins, Zizeck

This could be the playoff squad. If this team gets together and doesn't win, which very well could/ would happen...then lololololololololol

Dude, are you just throwing names out there? How do they even get Cousins? I can see Melo and Wade IF there are buyouts but Cavs aren't getting Cousins just by giving a 2018 pick.. you're gonna need to at least throw in Love or something. I'd entertain throwing IT, the 1st round 2018, and Shumpert to Pelicans for Cousins but I think Pelicans wants to see how they are doing midseason first. That's just an unfair team.. if LeBron and his Cavs squad lose with that, I'd have to demote LeBron as not a top ten player.

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 12:04 AM
Funny.. a lot of people said the same about IT in Boston... the Celtics won a playoff game in Cleveland without Isaiah... it was crazy then And it's crazy now. If you think you're getting a pass first PG too, you have a major disappointment in store.

Also side note: everyone who was in love with Crowder and bashing Smart... I actually heard today an interesting stat that Smart was actually a better 3 point shooter than Crowder in the post season... Crowder actually shot 35% from 3 in playoffs and Smart shot nearly 40%. It actually feels that Smart tends to show up more than Crowder for bigger games too. I know, random, but I thought this was interesting...Kind of shows a little insight into why Celtics fans were just saying that Crowder is an overrated player just because of his great contract.


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That's very misleading because some games, Crowder took more threes than he should have and he missed a bunch in that ONE game. Anyhow, it's a small sample size. Crowder is one of the best spot-up and corner three shooters in the game right now. Do you know who makes the most passes to the corner three? Cavs. Also, Crowder is there so LeBron can rest up on defense against the Warriors. The issue I saw is that LeBron couldn't guard KD (who can?) at all because he'd already spent a bunch of his energy trying to get the offense running/he rarely had any rest. Crowder's only role would be to 3&D and it's insane how valuable those guys are these days.

IMO, we're going to see Crowder become the Cavs #1 defensive stopper (outside of a fully healthy LeBron, ofc). I think Boston lost on this trade BIG TIME (assuming IT becomes healthy). Boston fans will be disappointed by Kyrie's lack of team skillset and lackluster defense. Yes, IT's defense is bad but now, you lost Bradley - who I believe was a top notch defender. Who covers Kyrie's mistakes? Smart? Dude is too reckless to stay on the court offensively.

goingfor28
08-31-2017, 12:13 AM
Cavs deserve an A+ for their return
Celtics a D for giving up so damn much, but at least they still have the historically great Al Horford on the roster.

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redsox12
08-31-2017, 12:13 AM
Great trade for both sides.

CLE gets a great trade chip, or the next face of the franchise with the BYN pick

BOS gets the new face of the franchise.

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 12:13 AM
Here's what I see:

IT knows when to give the ball up. I've seen the guy give up the ball and let other guys handle the offense.
Kyrie doesn't do that unless LeBron is on the court. Go watch a video of Kyrie when LeBron is on the bench. The reason they give the lead up so often is because the Cavs squad just watches Kyrie play 5v1. Usually it is, dribble, dribble, dribble, attack the basket, layup, boom. But that's demoralizing for a team filled with shooters who feel bored when all they're doing is playing defense and not touching the ball play after play.

IT doesn't play defense. Neither does Kyrie. Both are bad defenders and in the league of amazing PG's, points are going to be scored regardless of your defense. I see this as a small issue for the Cavs against the Warriors because Kyrie is not stopping Steph, anyways.

Let's be honest here, in terms of basketball skillset, Kyrie is like Allen Iverson except without the ferocity. He's too mellow out there whereas AI's heart matches any other athlete I've ever seen. Kyrie wants to be like Kobe but he doesn't play any defense or want to pass the ball AT ALL. Kobe was a ball-hog but he'd pass when he saw an opportunity. Trust me, I speak for ALL Cavs fans, Kyrie DOES NOT pass the ball unless he gets stuck and doesn't want to travel. If LeBron is there, he'll pass it to him but otherwise, good luck getting the guy to make a pass.

Lastly, like I said before, Cavs won this trade by virtue of them being a better squad than last year's Finals team vs the Warriors. I think Boston got worse. Sorry, we'll find out but I just don't like the fit they have and I think Hayward was overrated in Utah.

When I look at the Cavs last year, Kyrie should have excelled when LeBron was on the bench. The shooters on that team are capable of making shots all over the place. Kyrie's dribbling creates problems for opposing defenders in that he's able to hit the three, midrange, and no one is better than him at finishing around the rim. It's incredibly disappointing that a team filled with shooters never had an impact with Kyrie handling the ball. People say, "Cavs are built around LeBron." Really? A team filled with shooters = what the game demands today. Imagine if Westbrook had the shooters Cleveland had. No one ever says that Houston was built for Harden. If you're a superstar, a team filled with shooters is how you win games. That's how it is and should be built.

M.L.G.A.
08-31-2017, 12:15 AM
That's very misleading because some games, Crowder took more threes than he should have and he missed a bunch in that ONE game. Anyhow, it's a small sample size. Crowder is one of the best spot-up and corner three shooters in the game right now. Do you know who makes the most passes to the corner three? Cavs. Also, Crowder is there so LeBron can rest up on defense against the Warriors. The issue I saw is that LeBron couldn't guard KD (who can?) at all because he'd already spent a bunch of his energy trying to get the offense running/he rarely had any rest. Crowder's only role would be to 3&D and it's insane how valuable those guys are these days.

IMO, we're going to see Crowder become the Cavs #1 defensive stopper (outside of a fully healthy LeBron, ofc). I think Boston lost on this trade BIG TIME (assuming IT becomes healthy). Boston fans will be disappointed by Kyrie's lack of team skillset and lackluster defense. Yes, IT's defense is bad but now, you lost Bradley - who I believe was a top notch defender. Who covers Kyrie's mistakes? Smart? Dude is too reckless to stay on the court offensively.

No one can ***** a clear winner or loser of this trade until a few questions are answered:
1. Does IT resign wit Cavs or does he walk in FA? (if he walks, Cs win trade as they walk a way with a top 10 draft pick for proven top 5 point guard)...
2. Whether or not IT stays, where does that first round pick land? (if it lands #1, maybe Cavs win even with IT walking)....
3. Do Cavs draft a franchise player with that pick, wherever it lands?
4. Does Ante Zizic become a franchise player irrespective of where the pick lands or if IT resigns?
Note:
Crowder is just a throw in as he does not make any impact on the team (adds another big body to throw at KD on D). He is an inconsistent 3 point shooter but does shoot the 3 at the very least. Not a good rebounder, just a small forward trodder who will 99% walk at the end of his contract.

Based on these questions, it seems the variables are in Cavs court (pun intended). Until some of these questions are answered, it is clear Cs win the trade, trading away a pick for a proven top 3 PG that is on the books for at the very least 2 years (trade able asset in his contract year at the very least) vs dealing with the DECISION of signing a fan favorite 5'9" point guard...Cs are the Winner...

redsox12
08-31-2017, 12:16 AM
Lastly, like I said before, Cavs won this trade by virtue of them being a better squad than last year's Finals team vs the Warriors. I think Boston got worse. Sorry, we'll find out but I just don't like the fit they have and I think Hayward was overrated in Utah.

He put up great numbers in the loaded west, should be even better in the east

homie564
08-31-2017, 12:17 AM
That's very misleading because some games, Crowder took more threes than he should have and he missed a bunch in that ONE game. Anyhow, it's a small sample size. Crowder is one of the best spot-up and corner three shooters in the game right now. Do you know who makes the most passes to the corner three? Cavs. Also, Crowder is there so LeBron can rest up on defense against the Warriors. The issue I saw is that LeBron couldn't guard KD (who can?) at all because he'd already spent a bunch of his energy trying to get the offense running/he rarely had any rest. Crowder's only role would be to 3&D and it's insane how valuable those guys are these days.

IMO, we're going to see Crowder become the Cavs #1 defensive stopper (outside of a fully healthy LeBron, ofc). I think Boston lost on this trade BIG TIME (assuming IT becomes healthy). Boston fans will be disappointed by Kyrie's lack of team skillset and lackluster defense. Yes, IT's defense is bad but now, you lost Bradley - who I believe was a top notch defender. Who covers Kyrie's mistakes? Smart? Dude is too reckless to stay on the court offensively.

I disagree on Smart. Crowder is also well beyond one game. He's just a streaky shooter. He bricks shot after shot then he'll knock down 7 in a row... I would take Smart of Crowder without actually thinking much about it. Smart is the better defender, and in games where he is clicking offensively he's a dominant player... just needs more consistency from that end. He's still only 23...

As far as losing Bradley... yes that's a bad loss, but smart and Rozier are both good defensive players that can fill his minutes. Avery's health was also a legitimate concern. He struggled to stay on the court last year and there were some concerns of him potentially milking some extra time. Celtics also got Morris and have Jaylen Brown getting more minutes. Brown could honestly be better than Crowder defensively as early as this season, and Morris to me is essentially a wash on Crowder as a player. Let's not forget we upgraded the defense at the 5 spot tremendously too... Olynyk was a black hole there.. maybe one of the worst defensive centers in the game (maybe THE worst honestly)


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Cal827
08-31-2017, 12:17 AM
Finally.... 8 days and destroying Clevelands reputation later :laugh2:

As I said, I think Cleveland wins the trade, because I admit I don't think that Irving is that type of player (Basically think IT is about the same, and Irving's not tied down for a ton of time)... but after this... Cleveland better hope this team is good enough cause they're going to have fun in future trades thanks to this ordeal

M.L.G.A.
08-31-2017, 12:18 AM
He put up great numbers in the loaded west, should be even better in the east

Hayward is probably a top 7 small forward, certainly a top 10. Can't say he is over rated based on the dollars he was offered verses the dollars offered to others this year and last (especially vs the dollars offered to other small fowards and where they rank at their position)...

zn23
08-31-2017, 12:20 AM
2nd Round picks flame out most of the time, and it's in 3 years so Boston was like w/e.

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 12:23 AM
No one can ***** a clear winner or loser of this trade until a few questions are answered:
1. Does IT resign wit Cavs or does he walk in FA? (if he walks, Cs win trade as they walk a way with a top 10 draft pick for proven top 5 point guard)...
2. Whether or not IT stays, where does that first round pick land? (if it lands #1, maybe Cavs win even with IT walking)....
3. Do Cavs draft a franchise player with that pick, wherever it lands?
4. Does Ante Zizic become a franchise player irrespective of where the pick lands or if IT resigns?
Note:
Crowder is just a throw in as he does not make any impact on the team (adds another big body to throw at KD on D). He is an inconsistent 3 point shooter but does shoot the 3 at the very least. Not a good rebounder, just a small forward trodder who will 99% walk at the end of his contract.

Based on these questions, it seems the variables are in Cavs court (pun intended). Until some of these questions are answered, it is clear Cs win the trade, trading away a pick for a proven top 3 PG that is on the books for at the very least 2 years (trade able asset in his contract year at the very least) vs dealing with the DECISION of signing a fan favorite 5'9" point guard...Cs are the Winner...

1) IT is only there for short-term purposes in trying to help LeBron get a ring. Cavs aren't signing IT if LeBron leaves. If they win, then yes.

2) Where the pick lands help but remember, Cleveland can still TRADE this pick. It's valuable. They might not get a player like Kyrie back but what if they trade Love+pick for Cousins? Lots of options for Cavs now whereas before, all they had were Kyrie+Love.

3) Irrelevant as of now. Point is, it's worth a lot. If the Cavs get a top 5 pick in that stacked draft, this would look like a complete robbery.

4) No one cares about Zizic right now. He's there as a young piece Cavs are willing to gamble for AND because Zizic has size. Cavs lacked that considering they lost Bogut and Frye is not a true C, IMO.

5) Dude, what are you talking about? Crowder is just a throw in? I can bet you the Cavs will call off the trade if Crowder was not included.. He's no throw-in. He's one of the best players in terms of VALUE right now. Find someone getting paid $8 million for the next three seasons as good as Crowder.. I'll wait. Crowder is there to 3&D. Rebounding is a non-issue for the Cavs considering they have Tristan+Love. How are you saying Crowder is a throw in but then mention Zizic as if Cavs are expecting him to be Arvydas Sabonis? What?

redsox12
08-31-2017, 12:28 AM
1) IT is only there for short-term purposes in trying to help LeBron get a ring. Cavs aren't signing IT if LeBron leaves. If they win, then yes.


I think CLE goes for Chris Paul

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 12:33 AM
He put up great numbers in the loaded west, should be even better in the east
If we take out Gordon Hayward from the respective Boston/Jazz team, Jazz had a better roster. I don't think it's even close, to be honest. Gobert/Hill vs Horford/Irving, I'd take Gobert/Hill if I'm trying to win a championship.
I don't think stats changes much by conference. LeBron actually has better career numbers vs Western Conference teams.


I disagree on Smart. Crowder is also well beyond one game. He's just a streaky shooter. He bricks shot after shot then he'll knock down 7 in a row... I would take Smart of Crowder without actually thinking much about it. Smart is the better defender, and in games where he is clicking offensively he's a dominant player... just needs more consistency from that end. He's still only 23...

As far as losing Bradley... yes that's a bad loss, but smart and Rozier are both good defensive players that can fill his minutes. Avery's health was also a legitimate concern. He struggled to stay on the court last year and there were some concerns of him potentially milking some extra time. Celtics also got Morris and have Jaylen Brown getting more minutes. Brown could honestly be better than Crowder defensively as early as this season, and Morris to me is essentially a wash on Crowder as a player. Let's not forget we upgraded the defense at the 5 spot tremendously too... Olynyk was a black hole there.. maybe one of the worst defensive centers in the game (maybe THE worst honestly)


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1) Crowder has a much higher BBIQ than Smart. Smart is a locker room mess.
2) Smart is a good wing defender against comparable size. Crowder is a much better defender overall and will be when the Cavs face the Warriors. When he is clicking? Uhm, when is that? Once every four games? He's too inefficient. When a guy shoots 36% as his average and can't get above 45% in 2P% shots while not being able to shoot the three, I think it's worse than a player who can't play defense but can score. E.G., I'd rather have Derrick Rose than Smart - which is why Smart is not a good option for the Cavs.
3) Again, Smart and Rozier are horrible offensively. Young? Sure. But young =/= success. Morris is a good player. I like Brown/Tatum. They lost Olynyk - who I think was huge for them despite what you say. He was tough and knew how to play his role very well.

But think about it, do you think the Celtics are a better team than last season? I don't think so. People are banking on Brown/Tatum's development because I think they know that Hayward+Irving =/= Thomas+Bradley+Crowder.

M.L.G.A.
08-31-2017, 12:37 AM
1) IT is only there for short-term purposes in trying to help LeBron get a ring. Cavs aren't signing IT if LeBron leaves. If they win, then yes.

2) Where the pick lands help but remember, Cleveland can still TRADE this pick. It's valuable. They might not get a player like Kyrie back but what if they trade Love+pick for Cousins? Lots of options for Cavs now whereas before, all they had were Kyrie+Love.

3) Irrelevant as of now. Point is, it's worth a lot. If the Cavs get a top 5 pick in that stacked draft, this would look like a complete robbery.

4) No one cares about Zizic right now. He's there as a young piece Cavs are willing to gamble for AND because Zizic has size. Cavs lacked that considering they lost Bogut and Frye is not a true C, IMO.

5) Dude, what are you talking about? Crowder is just a throw in? I can bet you the Cavs will call off the trade if Crowder was not included.. He's no throw-in. He's one of the best players in terms of VALUE right now. Find someone getting paid $8 million for the next three seasons as good as Crowder.. I'll wait. Crowder is there to 3&D. Rebounding is a non-issue for the Cavs considering they have Tristan+Love. How are you saying Crowder is a throw in but then mention Zizic as if Cavs are expecting him to be Arvydas Sabonis? What?

lol these were rhetorical questions (for the obvious reasons since we do not know what will happen), but if IT walks and they end up drafting the next Jordan wherever the pick lands then clearly Cavs win, or if Zizic becomes the next Dirk, Cavs win...point is there is no clear winner or loser as there can be arguments made on any side...

Crowder is certainly a value contract especially in these NBA days, however, he is not the missing piece to any championship contender, especially these Cavs...potentially a trade asset for a 1st rounder (i.e. Lou Williams), however just further propels my point that there are too many unanswered questions to determine a clear winner or loser...

we honestly won't have a good idea until after next years draft at the very least [will give us a direction at the very least; does IT resign (IT was top 5 MVP candidate, it would be incompetent to say him resigning with Cavs is irrelevant), where does the pick land, who do they draft, etc....

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 12:41 AM
lol these were rhetorical questions (for the obvious reasons since we do not know what will happen), but if IT walks and they end up drafting the next Jordan wherever the pick lands then clearly Cavs win, or if Zizic becomes the next Dirk, Cavs win...point is there is no clear winner or loser as there can be arguments made on any side...

Crowder is certainly a value contract especially in these NBA days, however, he is not the missing piece to any championship contender, especially these Cavs...potentially a trade asset for a 1st rounder (i.e. Lou Williams), however just further propels my point that there are too many unanswered questions to determine a clear winner or loser...

we honestly won't have a good idea until after next years draft at the very least [will give us a direction at the very least; does IT resign (IT was top 5 MVP candidate, it would be incompetent to say him resigning with Cavs is irrelevant), where does the pick land, who do they draft, etc....

You're honestly the only one who thinks Crowder is not the missing piece to any championship contender since he's one of the better 3&D players in the league. His contract is amazing and he performs well enough to justify being a starter. I'm not sure why you hate Crowder so much but I would say an overwhelming majority think Crowder is a key piece for the Cavs.

More-Than-Most
08-31-2017, 12:54 AM
lol the rape is real. Its just a 2nd round pick but holy **** they already gave up to much there is 0 reason to add more.

More-Than-Most
08-31-2017, 12:55 AM
To clarify everything:

Cavs get:
2018 1st round pick
2020 2nd round pick
Isaiah Thomas
Jae Crowder
Ante Zicic

Boston get:
Kyrie Irving

Source:
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903082455355330560

Link is to Woj's twitter account if you hate clicking links.

its insane... IT and Kyrie are damn near the same ****ing player

IndyRealist
08-31-2017, 01:13 AM
Cavs considered backing out of the deal because of the blowback, then they talked to other teams and realized they're not getting a better deal than this. Cavs won this trade regardless. Boston simply has the pieces to sacrifice.

IndyRealist
08-31-2017, 01:14 AM
its insane... IT and Kyrie are damn near the same ****ing player

Except one is injured and 3 years older.

More-Than-Most
08-31-2017, 01:21 AM
Furthermore, Kyrie's b-ball IQ is laughably bad. He's like Kobe in that he decides he's gonna shoot before the shot clock starts and no defense will make him alter that plan. Thomas is much smarter and a better shooter. Kyrie has more ball skills than anyone, but what good is brainless skill that has no clue how to play winning basketball. Cavs will beat the Celtics worse this year than last.

this... and before people run in here and say wah wah wah... celtics fans and so on down the list were saying the same ****ing thing months ago that he is saying in this post... Irving BB IQ is horrid... He is literally a slightly better defender... I have been adamant how over rated both ****ing players are.

Lol Stevens is going to get kyrie to play defense is what someone above said... LMFAO.

IndyRealist
08-31-2017, 01:24 AM
Smart vs Crowder.

Crowder is hands down the better player. An 82 game sample size is always better than an 18 game sample size, especially for something that only happens 5 times a game. In an 82 game sample, Marcus Smart is a horrible shooter and Crowder is an excellent one.

More-Than-Most
08-31-2017, 01:25 AM
Except one is injured and 3 years older.

if he is really injured and misses next year and it hurts him long term id agree with this trade... Kyrie is younger and also has knee issues remember? Both ****ing players are top 20-30 players... both players can score where is IT is smarter offensively but worse defensively... Neither is worth a max... Neither should be given up for the other with a top 5 pick added/crowder/z/2nd rounder... Its a horrible ****ing deal.

It should have been IT plus 2nd rounder and a future celtic first... nothing more. They just traded a package that is literally twice that of what the butler and PG13 trade went for and they got a worse player

More-Than-Most
08-31-2017, 01:27 AM
there are not 2 players that are more overrated in the entire NBA... Damn good players but **** that.

redsox12
08-31-2017, 01:38 AM
If we take out Gordon Hayward from the respective Boston/Jazz team, Jazz had a better roster. I don't think it's even close, to be honest. Gobert/Hill vs Horford/Irving, I'd take Gobert/Hill if I'm trying to win a championship.
I don't think stats changes much by conference. LeBron actually has better career numbers vs Western Conference teams.

Gordon Hayward made the Jazz last year, you'll see how far the Jazz gets without Hayward. Gordon made all of this possible, if Hayward doesn't come to Boston, none of this even happens.


lol these were rhetorical questions (for the obvious reasons since we do not know what will happen), but if IT walks and they end up drafting the next Jordan wherever the pick lands then clearly Cavs win, or if Zizic becomes the next Dirk, Cavs win...point is there is no clear winner or loser as there can be arguments made on any side...

some high expectations there.

IT resigning in CLE is not happening. They either get Chris Paul, or LeBron leaves and they get alot younger.

redsox12
08-31-2017, 01:41 AM
It should have been IT plus 2nd rounder and a future celtic first... nothing more. They just traded a package that is literally twice that of what the butler and PG13 trade went for and they got a worse player

Your comparing apples to oranges. George put his team in a position to get barely anything as OKC is taking the chance George leaves after one year. Chicago likes Lavine enough for the bulls to believe in was worth it.

CLE gets a great potential star player but then again, they also drafted Anthony Bennett number one overall and you see how that turned out.

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 01:58 AM
He put up great numbers in the loaded west, should be even better in the east


Gordon Hayward made the Jazz last year, you'll see how far the Jazz gets without Hayward. Gordon made all of this possible, if Hayward doesn't come to Boston, none of this even happens.



some high expectations there.

IT resigning in CLE is not happening. They either get Chris Paul, or LeBron leaves and they get alot younger.

You're giving Hayward too much credit here. Was he that much better in year 2015-2016? Nope. He shot more efficiently but that had to do with inserting George Hill into the team. Issue is George was injured for 33 games but in those 33 games, Jazz had a record of 18-15. Hayward didn't really improve as a player to where some people think he can lead a team. I mean, Jazz's roster was pretty darn good. They had a top three NBA defense in the league led by Gobert. If we're taking Hayward out of the Celtics/Jazz, there is no doubt Jazz has a better team, IMO. Celtics, you're gambling on youth and inexperience with Brown+Tatum. If Hayward doesn't go to Boston, you're right, it wouldn't happen. Celtics think Hayward is the guy to take them to the next level. I don't think he is. I see a very good player but who if you're telling him to be your first option, prepare to be disappointed. Kyrie's probably the first option on that team now and guess what? He's a terrible first option. Also, with Bradley, Thomas, and Crowder out, guess who just lost their three best three point shooters? Celtics. They were already an average shooting team. Now, they're going to be worse.

redsox12
08-31-2017, 02:09 AM
You're giving Hayward too much credit here. Was he that much better in year 2015-2016? Nope. He shot more efficiently but that had to do with inserting George Hill into the team. Issue is George was injured for 33 games but in those 33 games, Jazz had a record of 18-15. Hayward didn't really improve as a player to where some people think he can lead a team. I mean, Jazz's roster was pretty darn good. They had a top three NBA defense in the league led by Gobert. If we're taking Hayward out of the Celtics/Jazz, there is no doubt Jazz has a better team, IMO. Celtics, you're gambling on youth and inexperience with Brown+Tatum. If Hayward doesn't go to Boston, you're right, it wouldn't happen. Celtics think Hayward is the guy to take them to the next level. I don't think he is. I see a very good player but who if you're telling him to be your first option, prepare to be disappointed. Kyrie's probably the first option on that team now and guess what? He's a terrible first option. Also, with Bradley, Thomas, and Crowder out, guess who just lost their three best three point shooters? Celtics. They were already an average shooting team. Now, they're going to be worse.

Kyrie is finally out of LeBron's shadow and able to take way more shots. Kyrie has also shown to be clutch, without his three pointer in game 7, we might have seen a warrior's threepeat.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2017, 02:14 AM
"you DON'T know hoops"

It was never about pulling a fast one, it is the art of negotiations. It was Cleveland trying to squeeze as much as they can since they put Cs at a point of no return. I mentioned this in the other thread, there were no surprises about IT's hip, Ainge came out the following day admittely saying his hip had a little to do something with trading him (it really was not having to choose to pay a fan favorite 5'9" pg $25M+ was the real reason); this was as expected in terms of Cs providing further assets...

FINALLY Ainge made a good transaction....guppy


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=crgIpAhUjpU

What in the s--- are you talking about son?

Next time you quote me, make sure you rebut MY WORDS.

I can't come back at single point you made because I never went there with any of that "hypothesis" bs because i don't know and don't care. I'm talking about on the court boi. WTF are you talking bout?

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 02:16 AM
Kyrie is finally out of LeBron's shadow and able to take way more shots. Kyrie has also shown to be clutch, without his three pointer in game 7, we might have seen a warrior's threepeat.

1) Him being out of LeBron's shadow actually hurts Kyrie more. He doesn't believe so but LeBron doesn't need Kyrie as much as Kyrie needed LeBron.
2) Kyrie already took 20 shots last season - which ranked fifth in the league. How many more shots does he need and want? He wants to be #1 in shots attempted? Good for him. He'll be scoring at a less efficient rate and if not that, he'll just be playing ISO all game. We've seen LeBron win without Kyrie. We haven't seen much of Kyrie winning without LeBron.
3) Kyrie is clutch, no doubt. But the fact Cleveland needs him in these clinching moments of the game so often is a sign that they aren't playing as well in the other three quarters. That can be attributed to Kyrie's lack of overall gameplay for the betterment of the team. Too much ISO, lack of defense, lack of leadership, and incapable of understanding how to utilize his teammates. Warriors threepeat? I'd argue that if Kyrie's knees weren't so weak, Cavs should have won their first NBA Finals vs the Warriors.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2017, 02:17 AM
Dude, are you just throwing names out there? How do they even get Cousins? I can see Melo and Wade IF there are buyouts but Cavs aren't getting Cousins just by giving a 2018 pick.. you're gonna need to at least throw in Love or something. I'd entertain throwing IT, the 1st round 2018, and Shumpert to Pelicans for Cousins but I think Pelicans wants to see how they are doing midseason first. That's just an unfair team.. if LeBron and his Cavs squad lose with that, I'd have to demote LeBron as not a top ten player.

I heard lots of chatter about shapert +pick+ somthing else that was on shrimps level for cousins I thought on PSD. I thought someone even said Woj had said something like this.

redsox12
08-31-2017, 02:22 AM
Well the great thing is Kyrie is only 25, and can say he's not even in his prime yet and can still learn more with a actual coach now in Stevens.

Ainge would never have traded his picks unless he got a young great player like Kyrie. It was the perfect situation for us Celtics.

redsox12
08-31-2017, 02:25 AM
I heard lots of chatter about shapert +pick+ somthing else that was on shrimps level for cousins I thought on PSD. I thought someone even said Woj had said something like this.

New Orleans is not trading Cousins, they will try to compete this year with Holliday, Rondo, Davis and Cousins.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2017, 02:34 AM
Here's what I see:

IT knows when to give the ball up. I've seen the guy give up the ball and let other guys handle the offense.
Kyrie doesn't do that unless LeBron is on the court. Go watch a video of Kyrie when LeBron is on the bench. The reason they give the lead up so often is because the Cavs squad just watches Kyrie play 5v1. Usually it is, dribble, dribble, dribble, attack the basket, layup, boom. But that's demoralizing for a team filled with shooters who feel bored when all they're doing is playing defense and not touching the ball play after play.

IT doesn't play defense. Neither does Kyrie. Both are bad defenders and in the league of amazing PG's, points are going to be scored regardless of your defense. I see this as a small issue for the Cavs against the Warriors because Kyrie is not stopping Steph, anyways.

Let's be honest here, in terms of basketball skillset, Kyrie is like Allen Iverson except without the ferocity. He's too mellow out there whereas AI's heart matches any other athlete I've ever seen. Kyrie wants to be like Kobe but he doesn't play any defense or want to pass the ball AT ALL. Kobe was a ball-hog but he'd pass when he saw an opportunity. Trust me, I speak for ALL Cavs fans, Kyrie DOES NOT pass the ball unless he gets stuck and doesn't want to travel. If LeBron is there, he'll pass it to him but otherwise, good luck getting the guy to make a pass.

Lastly, like I said before, Cavs won this trade by virtue of them being a better squad than last year's Finals team vs the Warriors. I think Boston got worse. Sorry, we'll find out but I just don't like the fit they have and I think Hayward was overrated in Utah.

When I look at the Cavs last year, Kyrie should have excelled when LeBron was on the bench. The shooters on that team are capable of making shots all over the place. Kyrie's dribbling creates problems for opposing defenders in that he's able to hit the three, midrange, and no one is better than him at finishing around the rim. It's incredibly disappointing that a team filled with shooters never had an impact with Kyrie handling the ball. People say, "Cavs are built around LeBron." Really? A team filled with shooters = what the game demands today. Imagine if Westbrook had the shooters Cleveland had. No one ever says that Houston was built for Harden. If you're a superstar, a team filled with shooters is how you win games. That's how it is and should be built.

You hit it on the head. This is why I feel the way I do about the situation. The only hang up is the Hip. If Isaiah is 100% healthy and playing comfortably within the system by the start of the second round of the playoffs, then this deal has made the Cavs a better team then last year by a good margin most notably there team chemistry.

FlashBolt
08-31-2017, 02:51 AM
I heard lots of chatter about shapert +pick+ somthing else that was on shrimps level for cousins I thought on PSD. I thought someone even said Woj had said something like this.

It depends. Cousins is on his last year so if Pelicans continue losing and won't make the playoffs, having Cousins there is a waste of asset. Maybe Cavs think he's their missing piece and Pelicans would be willing to take the pick and Shumpert. still, hard to see Pelicans giving up Cousins if they make the playoffs - which they 100% should.

ciaban
08-31-2017, 05:45 AM
1) Him being out of LeBron's shadow actually hurts Kyrie more. He doesn't believe so but LeBron doesn't need Kyrie as much as Kyrie needed LeBron.
2) Kyrie already took 20 shots last season - which ranked fifth in the league. How many more shots does he need and want? He wants to be #1 in shots attempted? Good for him. He'll be scoring at a less efficient rate and if not that, he'll just be playing ISO all game. We've seen LeBron win without Kyrie. We haven't seen much of Kyrie winning without LeBron.
3) Kyrie is clutch, no doubt. But the fact Cleveland needs him in these clinching moments of the game so often is a sign that they aren't playing as well in the other three quarters. That can be attributed to Kyrie's lack of overall gameplay for the betterment of the team. Too much ISO, lack of defense, lack of leadership, and incapable of understanding how to utilize his teammates. Warriors threepeat? I'd argue that if Kyrie's knees weren't so weak, Cavs should have won their first NBA Finals vs the Warriors.

Well if the Cavs also had Kevin Love that would have helped quite a bit too.

Heediot
08-31-2017, 05:58 AM
If IT doesn't miss 1/3 of the year to start and or doesn't have surgery, it's a bad look for Cleveland (If reports are true that they used his injury as leverage). Boston didn't give up much more, but it was still sleazy tactics by the opps.

bagwell368
08-31-2017, 06:20 AM
I guess you fail to realize that the Cavs are often a better team without a Kyrie on the floor. Game 3 Indiana I think it was. Down all game by 15 with Kyrie. Take him out and just put in a pass first PG and they run the Pacers off the court. Kyrie will never be as good or as efficient as IT was last year. Gonna be fun watching Boston fans come to that realization next season.

Wow, one example.

Perhaps you should realize that that the C's have a better Coach than who had KY in Cle. Perhaps you'll see that Stevens will have KY take more 3's, play more D, and do more pick and rolls.

Perhaps you'll notice that LBJ and IT don't really get along (see IT's mocking tweet in '10 after LBJ took the gas pipe vs the C's). You'll see that Stevens was able to get more out of IT than the Cavs win (even setting aside the hip).

Crowder plays hard, but is easily upset by playing time issues.

Perhaps you'll also see that Crowder isn't as good in the playoffs as the regular season and that IT is half the player that KY is in the playoffs - I.E. KY is one of the two dozen best playoff performers in NBA history and IT's WS48 is half of that and well below average.

Ainge could have had PG, or Butler for less, and passed on both. I submit DA knows his team and the league better than we do. And oh yes, DA avoided the fans pleading for a max deal for IT whom would never earn it in Boston or anywhere.

bagwell368
08-31-2017, 06:33 AM
If we take out Gordon Hayward from the respective Boston/Jazz team, Jazz had a better roster. I don't think it's even close, to be honest. Gobert/Hill vs Horford/Irving, I'd take Gobert/Hill if I'm trying to win a championship.
I don't think stats changes much by conference. LeBron actually has better career numbers vs Western Conference teams.



1) Crowder has a much higher BBIQ than Smart. Smart is a locker room mess.
2) Smart is a good wing defender against comparable size. Crowder is a much better defender overall and will be when the Cavs face the Warriors. When he is clicking? Uhm, when is that? Once every four games? He's too inefficient. When a guy shoots 36% as his average and can't get above 45% in 2P% shots while not being able to shoot the three, I think it's worse than a player who can't play defense but can score. E.G., I'd rather have Derrick Rose than Smart - which is why Smart is not a good option for the Cavs.
3) Again, Smart and Rozier are horrible offensively. Young? Sure. But young =/= success. Morris is a good player. I like Brown/Tatum. They lost Olynyk - who I think was huge for them despite what you say. He was tough and knew how to play his role very well.

But think about it, do you think the Celtics are a better team than last season? I don't think so. People are banking on Brown/Tatum's development because I think they know that Hayward+Irving =/= Thomas+Bradley+Crowder.

Bradley can't create his own shot, misses about 20 games a year, is a very erratic shooter. He can be elite on D, but is never elite on O and D at the same time. His deal is up after this year and it's said he's going to command $22.5M per for his next deal. C's keep that then they can't get GH or KY.

IT just had his career year. No type of player has a worse time in their 30s then sub 6' guards. His hip has been a life long issues. If he loses even an inch on his vertical he'll increase his lead as the most blocked player in the NBA. Don't forget to back up the Brinks Truck - he is expecting it. Meh playoff performer - and compared to hs last two regular seasons - pathetic. His USG% in Cle will go down too, so basically he's going from being the only go to scorer on his old team to #3 on his new team. His D is brutal and he'll be posted constantly.

Crowder - blocking two younger players whom both project to be better player and in short order. Also easily upset by various issues. Meh playoff performer.

Both Hayward and KY if healthy will outplay those 3 using WS48.

Smart a locker room mess? No that's Crowder. Smart fakes fouls an acts like an idiot on the court - but is also very intense and strong for his size. He's clearly outstripped AB on D. Crowder plays a different set of players so is harder to compare but when he concentrates he's damn good on D, spotty on O, but better than Smart there is no doubt. This is Smart's last chance to prove himself in Boston. If Brown takes over the 2 and dominates playing time I don't like Smart's chances. Oh well. Welcome to todays NBA.

ewing
08-31-2017, 06:46 AM
Celtics got raped

PAOboston
08-31-2017, 06:59 AM
Celtics got rapedThey gave up an injured PG that is due a max deal, a role player, a rookie Euro big man, and a draft pick for a top pg who's got 2 years left on deal.

It's really not that lopsided. We'll know next summer when we find out where the Brooklyn pick lands.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

ewing
08-31-2017, 07:03 AM
They gave up an injured PG that is due a max deal, a role player, a rookie Euro big man, and a draft pick for a top pg who's got 2 years left on deal.

It's really not that lopsided. We'll know next summer when we find out where the Brooklyn pick lands.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

good luck in 2022.

PAOboston
08-31-2017, 07:10 AM
good luck in 2022.Huh? What does that even mean?

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Heediot
08-31-2017, 07:45 AM
Shadiness aside, Great move by the Cavs. This opens up a lot of options for them moving forward. I think they go all in and trade that BK pick eventually.

Scoots
08-31-2017, 08:00 AM
my thoughts exactly, LOL if IT is playing in mid November the cavs are gonna look so petty

They already look petty. They were shouting it from the rooftops when Griffin wasn't renewed.

ewing
08-31-2017, 08:00 AM
Huh? What does that even mean?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

Seems you guys have a 5 year plan


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Dade County
08-31-2017, 08:23 AM
good luck in 2022.Huh? What does that even mean?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


LMAO... For real

PAOboston
08-31-2017, 08:24 AM
Seems you guys have a 5 year plan


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe Irving deal was always about the long term plan with Boston. Fits in with the development of Brown/Tatum/LAL 18 pick.

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Dade County
08-31-2017, 08:32 AM
Seems you guys have a 5 year plan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know about that... Irving can hit it after two seasons.

BoSox47
08-31-2017, 08:34 AM
PG IT, Rose
SG Bron, Wade, JR
SF Melo, Crowder, Green
PF Love, TT
C Cousins, Zizeck

This could be the playoff squad. If this team gets together and doesn't win, which very well could/ would happen...then lololololololololol

This roster would not be possible to achieve.

lakers squad
08-31-2017, 08:37 AM
Wow a 2nd rd pick im 2020, that will fall in the 55,60 range, Dan Gilbert becomes more of a laughing stock every passing day!

TheDish87
08-31-2017, 08:45 AM
after all that this is what it took? I feel like the Cavs should have gotten another late or protected first. Itll really come down to how much time IT misses.

likemystylez
08-31-2017, 08:53 AM
Wow a 2nd rd pick im 2020, that will fall in the 55,60 range, Dan Gilbert becomes more of a laughing stock every passing day!

its a game changer :bs:

ewing
08-31-2017, 08:56 AM
The Irving deal was always about the long term plan with Boston. Fits in with the development of Brown/Tatum/LAL 18 pick.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

hopefully things pan out next decade.

likemystylez
08-31-2017, 08:58 AM
Shadiness aside, Great move by the Cavs. This opens up a lot of options for them moving forward. I think they go all in and trade that BK pick eventually.

problem is that when you trade a pick, you usually have to take back additional salary unless you attach the pick with a bad contract (IE Jr smith or TT). if they attach the pick with one of those guys then the pick becomes a little bit less attractive

likemystylez
08-31-2017, 09:02 AM
2nd Round picks flame out most of the time, and it's in 3 years so Boston was like w/e.

I think IT was late second round pick

likemystylez
08-31-2017, 09:03 AM
I think CLE goes for Chris Paul

not sure houston is shopping chris paul, cav chance to go for paul was when he was still with the clippers

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 09:07 AM
I'll be really interested to see the break-down of Kyrie's shots last year vs. this upcoming one. I don't just mean volume. I mean types of shots. In CLE it felt like most of his shots came on kick-out 3s and ISOs as the shot clock was winding down after Lebron ran the offense. I can't see Stevens running that kind of offense. So I wonder if he'll move without the ball more and/or run plays at the start of the shot clock more.

Just as a basketball fan I think that will be an interesting thing to analytically break down.

likemystylez
08-31-2017, 09:09 AM
lol the rape is real. Its just a 2nd round pick but holy **** they already gave up to much there is 0 reason to add more.

yup, because the cavs were dragging their feet and the celtics needed to stop wasting time. teams can buy late first round picks or early second round picks any time they want (warriors do it all the time). also typically, you can find better talent scouting the d league than with late second round picks

If the cavs were really concerned about ITs status, I honestly dont see what a second round pick does to make them feel better

IndyRealist
08-31-2017, 09:10 AM
I think IT was late second round pick

What you said in no way contradicts what he said.

warfelg
08-31-2017, 09:19 AM
I'll be really interested to see the break-down of Kyrie's shots last year vs. this upcoming one. I don't just mean volume. I mean types of shots. In CLE it felt like most of his shots came on kick-out 3s and ISOs as the shot clock was winding down after Lebron ran the offense. I can't see Stevens running that kind of offense. So I wonder if he'll move without the ball more and/or run plays at the start of the shot clock more.

Just as a basketball fan I think that will be an interesting thing to analytically break down.

I pointed this out in the Sixers forum but when playing with LeBron:
Kyrie took 45% of his shots in an ISO, where overall he was a 48.6% shooter (counts drives, jump shots, and 3's as well as shots at the line from and 1).

He only took 14% of his shots in a catch and shoot situations, but was over 20% better of a shooter in those situations. Before LeBron in catch and shoot he was only about 10% better over his ISO.

So as good as he is ISO, he's even better in catch and shoot situations; but he doesn't do that as often as you would like. In a way it reminds me of Melo. Great catch and shoot but falls in love with ISO play. Remains to be seen how much like him he is. This Boston team reminds me some of Melos early Denver years. Very good, it depends on what the star player (Kyrie) ends up doing.

likemystylez
08-31-2017, 09:25 AM
What you said in no way contradicts what he said.

just saying the center piece of the deal was a second round pick so maybe the cavs think they just duplicated it

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 09:31 AM
Big picture on the trade, I think you gotta look short-term and long-term for both sides...

CLE

Kyrie is flawed but he's a top ~20 player in the game. It was going to be very difficult for them to not take a big step back in this deal. With IT/Crowder, I think they managed to pull it off dependent on IT's health/fit but more on that later... Crowder will probably play around 30 minutes per game and that will come out of the playing time of Jefferson, Shumpert, Frye, etc. That's going to be a very nice upgrade. IT is the big part though. He'll need to get healthy enough to play, then get into game shape all while assimilating himself into CLE's offense with Lebron. Probably without a training camp that's gonna take some time. But once it happens, he's a great replacement for Kyrie. He was probably a little bit of a downgrade if fully healthy and you'd expect maybe some negative impact of the hip injury but he'd have to decline a good amount for the downgrade from Kyrie to outweigh the improvement Crowder brings. So while it might be a regular season downgrade overall as IT gets healthy and finds his fit, come playoff time CLE should be better off for this deal short-term. I'm leaving Zizic out of the short-term impact because I don't think he's ready for significant minutes yet. I think he needs G-League time first.

Long-term for CLE, this gives them great upside as a contender if Lebron stays or for rebuilding if he leaves. Between the deadline this year and the draft next year, that BRK pick could be moved for a star player if packaged with some contracts. Zizic is another asset to throw in there as well. Crowder on a cheap contract has trade value but not for a star IMO because that's not the type of asset that a team trading a star usually looks for (CLE in this case was unique). In the end, CLE could move the pick and Zizic for an all-star, re-sign IT, keep Crowder and be a lot better than they were. Sure, Kyrie to IT would be a drop off to some degree but Crowder would be a big role player improvement and they'd be adding another all-star without having to subtract a guy like Love as had been rumored in talks this past offseason. And then of course if Lebron leaves or they suspect he will that pick (and Zizic) give them some pieces to develop going forward.

So in the end, I think there's positive short-term and long-term impact for CLE in this deal, assuming IT eventually gets to full health. If he isn't able to get back healthy by the playoffs (or suffers some HUGE drop off) then it does hurt them short-term but I don't expect that.

BOS

Short-term BOS upgrades from IT to Kyrie but downgrades from Crowder to.... well, IDK exactly. They have Kyrie/Rozier at PG, Brown/Smart at SG, Hayward/Tatum at SF and then Morris/Horford/Baynes as 3 PF/C rotation spots. Whether from within or an outside signing with the one roster spot they now have, they'll add a 10th player to the rotation in the slot Crowder would have been. It will be a downgrade and probably bigger than the upgrade from IT to Kyrie. So over a full regular season with everyone healthy I think this would make BOS worse. But with IT likely missing at least a portion of the regular season I think having Kyrie will make their record better by virtue of having a starting caliber PG for the whole year instead of just some or most. Come playoff time, I think BOS will benefit from having a better top of the roster player. They can shorten the rotation by extending minutes of the other 9 guys and bump that 10th spot out altogether if they need to. So I don't love this for BOS short-term but I think it's a marginal improvement, at least break-even on their own roster. But considering it makes CLE better too I think you gotta consider this a short-term loss for BOS.

Long-term, it doesn't seem like BOS wanted to re-sign IT. If they did, I don't think they do this. So you gotta look at it considering that. They were either gonna let IT walk for nothing or trade him for an alternative package and not sure they could have gotten much for him. BRK pick, Crowder, Zizic, 2020 2nd rounder (lol), and the opportunity cost of whatever they could have gotten for IT (not a ton, IMO) is a good price to pay for a top ~20 player that's 25. I consider BOS having 4 assets with greta long-term value - Brown, Tatum, BRK pick, LAL/SAC pick. Trades like Butler/cousins would have cost two of those top pieces. Because CLE was in a unique situation of being a contender even after dealing their star they actually valued Crowder/IT in the package. Most teams dealing a star and rebuilding wouldn't value those guys like that. So I think BOS was able to get a good price for a young star in that sense. At 25 Kyrie will still be in his prime when Brown/Tatum and hopefully a good player with the LAL/SAC pick are. And we'll have salary flexibility around those guys too down the line.

So I think BOS maybe take a slight step back short-term but I think they're in better long-term position now. And since I didn't think they were gonna beat CLE as they were so I'm ok with that.

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 09:33 AM
I pointed this out in the Sixers forum but when playing with LeBron:
Kyrie took 45% of his shots in an ISO, where overall he was a 48.6% shooter (counts drives, jump shots, and 3's as well as shots at the line from and 1).

He only took 14% of his shots in a catch and shoot situations, but was over 20% better of a shooter in those situations. Before LeBron in catch and shoot he was only about 10% better over his ISO.

So as good as he is ISO, he's even better in catch and shoot situations; but he doesn't do that as often as you would like. In a way it reminds me of Melo. Great catch and shoot but falls in love with ISO play. Remains to be seen how much like him he is. This Boston team reminds me some of Melos early Denver years. Very good, it depends on what the star player (Kyrie) ends up doing.

I don't think Melo ever had a player as good as Hayward or even Horford with him in those early years. I don't even think Kyrie is their best player, TBH. I rank Hayward ahead of him.

I'd think his ISO percentage goes down playing in Stevens' system and other good ball handlers (Hayward, Horford). Overall I'm just really curious to see how the offense is worked out. As a basketball fan I think it could be really pretty to watch. A lot of talent and a coach that I think has great philosophies. Hopefully allthe players buy in.

ballallday
08-31-2017, 09:36 AM
I pointed this out in the Sixers forum but when playing with LeBron:
Kyrie took 45% of his shots in an ISO, where overall he was a 48.6% shooter (counts drives, jump shots, and 3's as well as shots at the line from and 1).

He only took 14% of his shots in a catch and shoot situations, but was over 20% better of a shooter in those situations. Before LeBron in catch and shoot he was only about 10% better over his ISO.

So as good as he is ISO, he's even better in catch and shoot situations; but he doesn't do that as often as you would like. In a way it reminds me of Melo. Great catch and shoot but falls in love with ISO play. Remains to be seen how much like him he is. This Boston team reminds me some of Melos early Denver years. Very good, it depends on what the star player (Kyrie) ends up doing.

Great breakdown / research and summary.

The only thing not accounted for in stats like you stated is the space that lebron creates on the floor just by being out there and the better iso shots that come from it. There is no way to measure it... If lebron is setting back screens / picks or even slightest movement, players on defence need to be paying attention to it as lebron is the biggest distraction to any defence. Someone said it best, he made mo willliams look like an all star but then he was garbage once he left lebrons side. Hopefully kyrie doesn't face the same or similar fate but i do think his value is overstated due to the lebron effect. (btw i am a lebron hater, however you can't deny what he does for players around him / talent).

Anyway just wanted to mention that, again great post.

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 09:39 AM
Great breakdown / research and summary.

The only thing not accounted for in stats like you stated is the space that lebron creates on the floor just by being out there and the better iso shots that come from it. There is no way to measure it... If lebron is setting back screens / picks or even slightest movement, players on defence need to be paying attention to it as lebron is the biggest distraction to any defence. Someone said it best, he made mo willliams look like an all star but then he was garbage once he left lebrons side. Hopefully kyrie doesn't face the same or similar fate but i do think his value is overstated due to the lebron effect. (btw i am a lebron hater, however you can't deny what he does for players around him / talent).

Anyway just wanted to mention that, again great post.

Does Lebron do that though? From what I've seen, he handles the ball full-time except a few positions where he decides he's going to take a possession off so he stands at the 3 point line, where I wouldn't say he's a great floor spacer but he does draw attention like one out of fear he'll get the ball back and drive it to the rim if you leave him open.

My view of Lebron is that he helps get others open 3s on offense but he doesn't exactly open up their games in other ways.

warfelg
08-31-2017, 09:50 AM
Great breakdown / research and summary.

The only thing not accounted for in stats like you stated is the space that lebron creates on the floor just by being out there and the better iso shots that come from it. There is no way to measure it... If lebron is setting back screens / picks or even slightest movement, players on defence need to be paying attention to it as lebron is the biggest distraction to any defence. Someone said it best, he made mo willliams look like an all star but then he was garbage once he left lebrons side. Hopefully kyrie doesn't face the same or similar fate but i do think his value is overstated due to the lebron effect. (btw i am a lebron hater, however you can't deny what he does for players around him / talent).

Anyway just wanted to mention that, again great post.

The article pointed it out that when they did ISO it's a situation in which no one else cleared any space. I don't disagree with what you said but the ISO numbers include games with LeBron sitting out too.

warfelg
08-31-2017, 09:52 AM
I don't think Melo ever had a player as good as Hayward or even Horford with him in those early years. I don't even think Kyrie is their best player, TBH. I rank Hayward ahead of him.

I'd think his ISO percentage goes down playing in Stevens' system and other good ball handlers (Hayward, Horford). Overall I'm just really curious to see how the offense is worked out. As a basketball fan I think it could be really pretty to watch. A lot of talent and a coach that I think has great philosophies. Hopefully allthe players buy in.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything your saying here, just something that's interesting to watch.

homie564
08-31-2017, 09:57 AM
Hugepatsfan is the goat of posting lol. Love reading some of your analysis man


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IndyRealist
08-31-2017, 10:05 AM
just saying the center piece of the deal was a second round pick so maybe the cavs think they just duplicated it

Um, no.

Vinylman
08-31-2017, 10:08 AM
Funny.. a lot of people said the same about IT in Boston... the Celtics won a playoff game in Cleveland without Isaiah... it was crazy then And it's crazy now. If you think you're getting a pass first PG too, you have a major disappointment in store.

Also side note: everyone who was in love with Crowder and bashing Smart... I actually heard today an interesting stat that Smart was actually a better 3 point shooter than Crowder in the post season... Crowder actually shot 35% from 3 in playoffs and Smart shot nearly 40%. It actually feels that Smart tends to show up more than Crowder for bigger games too. I know, random, but I thought this was interesting...Kind of shows a little insight into why Celtics fans were just saying that Crowder is an overrated player just because of his great contract.


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lol

Smart is a horrible shooter in general... not just from 3

As for his playoff performance (small sample size) he had one great game 7-10 game against Cleveland. I wonder which defensive stalwart was guarding him in that game...

Neither guy is that good at the offensive end...

what I did find funny though your conclusion is that he shows up based on that but fail to mention that his 2pt shooting was only 29.5% in the playoffs vs 42% in the regular season...

His TS% was 1% higher in the playoffs... I guess that is showing up

homie564
08-31-2017, 10:37 AM
lol

Smart is a horrible shooter in general... not just from 3

As for his playoff performance (small sample size) he had one great game 7-10 game against Cleveland. I wonder which defensive stalwart was guarding him in that game...

Neither guy is that good at the offensive end...

what I did find funny though your conclusion is that he shows up based on that but fail to mention that his 2pt shooting was only 29.5% in the playoffs vs 42% in the regular season...

His TS% was 1% higher in the playoffs... I guess that is showing up

Didn't say Smart was a good shooter, what I said is he was a more efficient 3 point shooter in the playoffs (he was... Crowder iirc had one good game and was actually pretty average or worse the rest of the way). I personally like Smart's defense better, I just think Crowder has been overrated by a lot of non-Celtics fans (for the most part Celtics fans knew he wasn't THAT good). I also like that Smart is younger and has more upside going forward. His intensity in big games is a factor whether people want to believe that or not.


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hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 10:41 AM
https://twitter.com/AdamMKaufman/status/903259391398473728

I don't believe in judging a trade by going all the way back and saying "well we really gave up X". That's not the point of that chart. I just think it's interesting to see the overall transformation.

Vinylman
08-31-2017, 11:02 AM
Didn't say Smart was a good shooter, what I said is he was a more efficient 3 point shooter in the playoffs (he was... Crowder iirc had one good game and was actually pretty average or worse the rest of the way). I personally like Smart's defense better, I just think Crowder has been overrated by a lot of non-Celtics fans (for the most part Celtics fans knew he wasn't THAT good). I also like that Smart is younger and has more upside going forward. His intensity in big games is a factor whether people want to believe that or not.


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going forward? he is only a good value at this point because he is on a rookie deal... when you have to pay smart $12 million a year starting next year you will hate his value... You are the guy who criticizes others for talking about Crowder in terms of his contract/value ... smart is no different at this point...

As for upside... probably not much their unless he learns how to shoot all of a sudden

AllBall
08-31-2017, 11:18 AM
Boston got fleeced, lawd.

mavwar53
08-31-2017, 11:23 AM
Boston got fleeced, lawd.

That traded the piece the was holding them back on the defensive end. Kyrie is not good defensively but his size alone isn't a disadvantage. Plus Boston now doesn't have to feel forced to offer a stupid contract to IT.

ewing
08-31-2017, 11:27 AM
I pointed this out in the Sixers forum but when playing with LeBron:
Kyrie took 45% of his shots in an ISO, where overall he was a 48.6% shooter (counts drives, jump shots, and 3's as well as shots at the line from and 1).

He only took 14% of his shots in a catch and shoot situations, but was over 20% better of a shooter in those situations. Before LeBron in catch and shoot he was only about 10% better over his ISO.

So as good as he is ISO, he's even better in catch and shoot situations; but he doesn't do that as often as you would like. In a way it reminds me of Melo. Great catch and shoot but falls in love with ISO play. Remains to be seen how much like him he is. This Boston team reminds me some of Melos early Denver years. Very good, it depends on what the star player (Kyrie) ends up doing.

good post War

IndyRealist
08-31-2017, 11:44 AM
good post War

+1

IKnowHoops
08-31-2017, 11:46 AM
Wow, one example.

Perhaps you should realize that that the C's have a better Coach than who had KY in Cle. Perhaps you'll see that Stevens will have KY take more 3's, play more D, and do more pick and rolls.

Perhaps you'll notice that LBJ and IT don't really get along (see IT's mocking tweet in '10 after LBJ took the gas pipe vs the C's). You'll see that Stevens was able to get more out of IT than the Cavs win (even setting aside the hip).

Crowder plays hard, but is easily upset by playing time issues.

Perhaps you'll also see that Crowder isn't as good in the playoffs as the regular season and that IT is half the player that KY is in the playoffs - I.E. KY is one of the two dozen best playoff performers in NBA history and IT's WS48 is half of that and well below average.

Ainge could have had PG, or Butler for less, and passed on both. I submit DA knows his team and the league better than we do. And oh yes, DA avoided the fans pleading for a max deal for IT whom would never earn it in Boston or anywhere.

Hey, good luck to you. There are many many many examples. Based on what I've seen from Kyrie, you will never be as happy with Kyrie as you were with IT at his highest this last year. Time will tell.

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 11:53 AM
Wow, one example.

Perhaps you should realize that that the C's have a better Coach than who had KY in Cle. Perhaps you'll see that Stevens will have KY take more 3's, play more D, and do more pick and rolls.

Perhaps you'll notice that LBJ and IT don't really get along (see IT's mocking tweet in '10 after LBJ took the gas pipe vs the C's). You'll see that Stevens was able to get more out of IT than the Cavs win (even setting aside the hip).

Crowder plays hard, but is easily upset by playing time issues.

Perhaps you'll also see that Crowder isn't as good in the playoffs as the regular season and that IT is half the player that KY is in the playoffs - I.E. KY is one of the two dozen best playoff performers in NBA history and IT's WS48 is half of that and well below average.

Ainge could have had PG, or Butler for less, and passed on both. I submit DA knows his team and the league better than we do. And oh yes, DA avoided the fans pleading for a max deal for IT whom would never earn it in Boston or anywhere.

Disagreed on Butler. PG was a unique situation with the contract expiring and it seems that IND turned down better offers from CLE and BOS so I don't really count that the same.

But Butler went (with a 1st) for the #5 pick last year, the #7 pick this year and the LaVine who's coming off injury and going into a contract year (RFA though, not unrestricted) but proven himself as a good NBA player.

Based on that package, I think that butler would have cost two of Brown/Tatum/2018 BRK pick along with another piece like Smart or Rozier.

I consider that to be more value than we gave up for Kyrie. I said before that as a team still trying to contend after dealing a star CLE was in a unique situation where they actually valued Crowder/IT. Rebuilding teams (like CHI after dealing Butler) wouldn't have been in that scenario and would have demanded long-term chips in the deal rather than guys like IT/Crowder.

homie564
08-31-2017, 11:55 AM
going forward? he is only a good value at this point because he is on a rookie deal... when you have to pay smart $12 million a year starting next year you will hate his value... You are the guy who criticizes others for talking about Crowder in terms of his contract/value ... smart is no different at this point...

As for upside... probably not much their unless he learns how to shoot all of a sudden

So you're saying that a 23 year old can't develop any further than he has after playing a bench role for the first 3 years of his career? I have a hard time believing he can't get better. Crowder is 27 and pretty much is what he is.. I'm not saying he's not a good player, just that I would rather have Smart going forward, I think Smart can be very Avery Bradley esque.


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bagwell368
08-31-2017, 11:57 AM
Furthermore, Kyrie's b-ball IQ is laughably bad. He's like Kobe in that he decides he's gonna shoot before the shot clock starts and no defense will make him alter that plan. Thomas is much smarter and a better shooter. Kyrie has more ball skills than anyone, but what good is brainless skill that has no clue how to play winning basketball. Cavs will beat the Celtics worse this year than last.

IT who just passed through his peak season is a better shooter than KY who is 3 years short of his prime? How about IT's ability to deal with being trapped - see end of Game 6 Washington. The smurf was trapped. Why not look at playoff records? KY >>> IT. How long will IT last and with the Cavs pay the price to keep him?

Horford '17-'18 >> Celts starting C's '16-'17
Morris '17-'18 < Horford '16-'17
GH '17-'18 >> Crowder '16-'17
JB <= AB
KY >= IT ('16-'17) but >> IT ('17-'18)

C's were about 3 games won over what they should have been last year (I think it was 53), this year should be 57 wins +/- 2 for the C's, having lost well know playoff chokes IT, AB, Crowder from last years team can only help.

Love IMO is the deciding factor, if he warms up to being #2, they'll be hard to beat, and if LBJ can stay focused knowing he's leaving that joke of a team, then yeah this year and this year only they'll be tough for ECF Champ, but, the C's are clearly better than last year. The SRS should go up at least 1.5 per game.

Scoots
08-31-2017, 11:59 AM
I pointed this out in the Sixers forum but when playing with LeBron:
Kyrie took 45% of his shots in an ISO, where overall he was a 48.6% shooter (counts drives, jump shots, and 3's as well as shots at the line from and 1).

He only took 14% of his shots in a catch and shoot situations, but was over 20% better of a shooter in those situations. Before LeBron in catch and shoot he was only about 10% better over his ISO.

So as good as he is ISO, he's even better in catch and shoot situations; but he doesn't do that as often as you would like. In a way it reminds me of Melo. Great catch and shoot but falls in love with ISO play. Remains to be seen how much like him he is. This Boston team reminds me some of Melos early Denver years. Very good, it depends on what the star player (Kyrie) ends up doing.

I think it depends on what the coach gets all of the players to do. If Kyrie can't find his way for a coach who uses the system rather than individual greatness to create space and "good" shots then he could bring the team down with him.

KnicksorBust
08-31-2017, 12:24 PM
The 2020 draft is supposed to be really strong in the 40-60 range. Someone has been scouting a lot of JV high school games. Savvy move by Cleveland.

Vee-Rex
08-31-2017, 12:39 PM
I pointed this out in the Sixers forum but when playing with LeBron:
Kyrie took 45% of his shots in an ISO, where overall he was a 48.6% shooter (counts drives, jump shots, and 3's as well as shots at the line from and 1).

He only took 14% of his shots in a catch and shoot situations, but was over 20% better of a shooter in those situations. Before LeBron in catch and shoot he was only about 10% better over his ISO.

So as good as he is ISO, he's even better in catch and shoot situations; but he doesn't do that as often as you would like. In a way it reminds me of Melo. Great catch and shoot but falls in love with ISO play. Remains to be seen how much like him he is. This Boston team reminds me some of Melos early Denver years. Very good, it depends on what the star player (Kyrie) ends up doing.

Sounds perfectly in line with the eye test for me.

Believe it or not, Kyrie doesn't have a fast release. He passes up a lot of open shots to put the ball on the floor because a late hand from a defender makes him uncomfortable. He'll dribble up and take the mid-range shot.

valade16
08-31-2017, 12:41 PM
I really think this was a good trade for both teams.

Cleveland was able to get building blocks for the future and impact players now while obtaining flexibility to go in whichever direction LeBron forces them to.

Boston was able to cash in on some of their tradable assets for a star player while avoiding the possibility of letting IT walk next summer without compensation.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2017, 12:42 PM
IT who just passed through his peak season is a better shooter than KY who is 3 years short of his prime? How about IT's ability to deal with being trapped - see end of Game 6 Washington. The smurf was trapped. Why not look at playoff records? KY >>> IT. How long will IT last and with the Cavs pay the price to keep him?

Horford '17-'18 >> Celts starting C's '16-'17
Morris '17-'18 < Horford '16-'17
GH '17-'18 >> Crowder '16-'17
JB <= AB
KY >= IT ('16-'17) but >> IT ('17-'18)

C's were about 3 games won over what they should have been last year (I think it was 53), this year should be 57 wins +/- 2 for the C's, having lost well know playoff chokes IT, AB, Crowder from last years team can only help.

Love IMO is the deciding factor, if he warms up to being #2, they'll be hard to beat, and if LBJ can stay focused knowing he's leaving that joke of a team, then yeah this year and this year only they'll be tough for ECF Champ, but, the C's are clearly better than last year. The SRS should go up at least 1.5 per game.

Well, we will see who's prediction on this subject is more accurate during next season. I wish the best for a Kyrie and C's, but I just trust Kyrie so little. You will see what I'm talkin bout.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2017, 12:42 PM
The 2020 draft is supposed to be really strong in the 40-60 range. Someone has been scouting a lot of JV high school games. Savvy move by Cleveland.

Lolololololololololololololololololololoololo....y our a fool...lololololololololololololol

homie564
08-31-2017, 12:46 PM
Lolololololololololololololololololololoololo....y our a fool...lololololololololololololol

Pretty sure he was joking......


He was joking.... right?... [emoji15]


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Vee-Rex
08-31-2017, 12:49 PM
I'll be really interested to see the break-down of Kyrie's shots last year vs. this upcoming one. I don't just mean volume. I mean types of shots. In CLE it felt like most of his shots came on kick-out 3s and ISOs as the shot clock was winding down after Lebron ran the offense. I can't see Stevens running that kind of offense. So I wonder if he'll move without the ball more and/or run plays at the start of the shot clock more.

Just as a basketball fan I think that will be an interesting thing to analytically break down.

The more Kyrie moves on offense, the less he'll move on defense.

He's a very stubborn player and doesn't work hard on the court unless it's in like the last 5 minutes of a close game - then he becomes a surprisingly decent/average defender.

If Brad has some sort of magic formula to get Kyrie to completely change his play-style, I'll be shocked. Part of what makes him an assassin is his mental make-up. Just plugging him into a pass-heavy system isn't gonna do anything but make him worse and keep him chained (see David Blatt's system vs. Tyronn Lue having no options but to resort to 'unleashing' him). It'll be interesting to see how this plays out for Boston and if they can manage to find a perfect balance.

But you guys will definitely have to get used to getting really frustrated with his shot selection at times - that just won't change.

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 01:44 PM
The more Kyrie moves on offense, the less he'll move on defense.

He's a very stubborn player and doesn't work hard on the court unless it's in like the last 5 minutes of a close game - then he becomes a surprisingly decent/average defender.

If Brad has some sort of magic formula to get Kyrie to completely change his play-style, I'll be shocked. Part of what makes him an assassin is his mental make-up. Just plugging him into a pass-heavy system isn't gonna do anything but make him worse and keep him chained (see David Blatt's system vs. Tyronn Lue having no options but to resort to 'unleashing' him). It'll be interesting to see how this plays out for Boston and if they can manage to find a perfect balance.

But you guys will definitely have to get used to getting really frustrated with his shot selection at times - that just won't change.

It will definitely be interesting. I think we've infused a LOT of individual offensive talent into the team. Kyrie is an upgrade over IT, even if not by a huge margin. Hayward is worlds better than AB on the offensive end. Marcus Morris is a more skilled individual offensive player than Crowder from what I've read into him. Jaylen Brown in year 2 should be better than in year 1. Tatum is a very gifted offensive rookie and you'd hope he's better than Gerald Green. I guess Smart and Rozier should be somewhat better. Horford is Horford - I'd say year 2 in the system would make him better but with so much change it could be year 1 again lol. The only downgrade offensively I'd say is Olynyk to Baynes, but that should be a small role.

Brad has work cut out for him building a team offense that enables all of those guys to shine.

j-bay
08-31-2017, 02:13 PM
According to multiple sources that spoke with The Ringer, Dan Gilbert was in charge of the decision-making on the Cleveland Cavaliers' trade of Kyrie Irving to the Boston Celtics for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, Brooklyn's 2018 first round pick and Miami's 2020 second round pick.

The Cavaliers hired Koby Altman as general manager after Chauncey Billups decided not to take the job as president of basketball operations.

“A state of organizational chaos is Gilbert’s M.O.,” one executive told The Ringer. “Gilbert thinks he’s the protagonist in the story of the Cavaliers, when, in reality, he’s the antagonist.”

The Cavaliers sought extra assets from the Celtics following Thomas' physical. For the Cavaliers, however, the most coveted assets in the deal were Crowder and Brooklyn's pick.

According to a source, the Celtics priced Thomas' injury into the initial offer of the Nets' pick and Crowder.


https://basketball.******.com/wiretap-amp/247299/Report-Dan-Gilbert-Was-In-Charge-Of-Cavs-Negotiations-On-Kyrie-Irving-Trade

IKnowHoops
08-31-2017, 02:23 PM
Pretty sure he was joking......


He was joking.... right?... [emoji15]


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Hell yeah he was joking

warfelg
08-31-2017, 02:53 PM
I think it depends on what the coach gets all of the players to do. If Kyrie can't find his way for a coach who uses the system rather than individual greatness to create space and "good" shots then he could bring the team down with him.

Hence my last sentence. It hinges on Kyrie buying in and doing what's needed.

warfelg
08-31-2017, 02:53 PM
Sounds perfectly in line with the eye test for me.

Believe it or not, Kyrie doesn't have a fast release. He passes up a lot of open shots to put the ball on the floor because a late hand from a defender makes him uncomfortable. He'll dribble up and take the mid-range shot.

Agreed on eye test part.

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 03:25 PM
As a BOS fan it'll be interesting to see who the next star that becomes available is.

I have a hard time seeing Kyrie or Hayward dealt just because realistically I don't see a trade that would make sense. I think those guys are here for at least their contracts, if not extensions beyond that. Ainge seems to really like Brown and Tatum so I wouldn't think either gets moved unless we're talking a real superstar like AD. But I just can't see them moving a player of that caliber with 4 years left on hsi deal. That's a guy you ride it out with unless you know there's no shot he stays.

Horford probably wouldn't be in a deal either but maybe in a Kyrie type scenario where a team is moving an all star caliber player but still trying to complete. The only scenario I can think of is Cousins. Maybe the pairing with AD doesn't work and they decide to move him because they think he'll walk. They still want to compete over the next 4 years while AD is under contract. So they view Horford as a good player who can help them while also getting young talent with him, i.e. the Lakers pick. BOS would also take on Asik. But BOS would need to think they'll extend Cousins too. But stepping back, that's the only scenario I could see Horford moved in - to a team that wants to compete even after trading their star. Otherwise, they'd have 0 interest in him.

Beyond that unlikely scenario though, BOS has contracts to match salaries in pretty much any trade with some combination of Smart, Morris, Baynes, Rozier, Yabusele, Larkin, Nader, Ojeyle and then they can throw the LAL/SAC/PHI pick, their own 1sts, an LAC 1st and/or a MEM 1st on top of it. I don't think you're getting a top of the market star or anything for that package but you can make some competitive offers.

IndyRealist
08-31-2017, 04:25 PM
https://basketball.******.com/wiretap-amp/247299/Report-Dan-Gilbert-Was-In-Charge-Of-Cavs-Negotiations-On-Kyrie-Irving-Trade

I'm never exactly right on these things, but I was exactly right on this one (so were a lot of people).

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 04:33 PM
https://twitter.com/NO_TATS_B/status/903082341819658240

https://twitter.com/Juice4theStack/status/900137283042648065

https://twitter.com/kenmemphis21/status/900125310615736321

https://twitter.com/gilbertura/status/900137438743592961

:laugh2: at these

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 04:35 PM
I'm actually really interested to hear these press conferences. I want to hear what the Front Offices have to say about the hold-up. I want to hear Kyrie explain more why he wanted out. I don't want to hear IT talk about how it hurt him to be traded though because it'll make me cry.

hugepatsfan
08-31-2017, 04:37 PM
https://twitter.com/celticsblog/status/903236570572050432

4 short years ago! lol

Hayward is supposed to be in Boston tomorrow too and he never did an actual press conference (just a call) and it'd be awesome to get a nice group photo with players a little better than that last one lol

ewing
08-31-2017, 07:08 PM
It will definitely be interesting. I think we've infused a LOT of individual offensive talent into the team. Kyrie is an upgrade over IT, even if not by a huge margin. Hayward is worlds better than AB on the offensive end. Marcus Morris is a more skilled individual offensive player than Crowder from what I've read into him. Jaylen Brown in year 2 should be better than in year 1. Tatum is a very gifted offensive rookie and you'd hope he's better than Gerald Green. I guess Smart and Rozier should be somewhat better. Horford is Horford - I'd say year 2 in the system would make him better but with so much change it could be year 1 again lol. The only downgrade offensively I'd say is Olynyk to Baynes, but that should be a small role.

Brad has work cut out for him building a team offense that enables all of those guys to shine.

i think you will see more isolation offensive in Boston next year. I also Brad is a great coach and will get these guys to move the ball. Last year you only had one guy that could create for himself and others. I actually think having more individually skilled offensive players and playing a little more isolation offensive as result will benefit Boston defensive. moving the ball that quickly and shooting that many thress all the time makes matching up a nightmare.

Scoots
08-31-2017, 07:15 PM
The 2020 draft is supposed to be really strong in the 40-60 range. Someone has been scouting a lot of JV high school games. Savvy move by Cleveland.

:nod:

CELTICS4LYFE
08-31-2017, 08:52 PM
Sooo last year IT was Mr. 4th quarter with 10 ppg in the 4th and avg 30 for the season and people are worrying about how Kyrie will fit into the system??

Sounds like exactly what he wants.

Can't wait to see Kyrie running plays Brad draws up for him or PnR with Horford.

bagwell368
08-31-2017, 09:11 PM
As a BOS fan it'll be interesting to see who the next star that becomes available is.

I have a hard time seeing Kyrie or Hayward dealt just because realistically I don't see a trade that would make sense. I think those guys are here for at least their contracts, if not extensions beyond that. Ainge seems to really like Brown and Tatum so I wouldn't think either gets moved unless we're talking a real superstar like AD. But I just can't see them moving a player of that caliber with 4 years left on hsi deal. That's a guy you ride it out with unless you know there's no shot he stays.

Horford probably wouldn't be in a deal either but maybe in a Kyrie type scenario where a team is moving an all star caliber player but still trying to complete. The only scenario I can think of is Cousins. Maybe the pairing with AD doesn't work and they decide to move him because they think he'll walk. They still want to compete over the next 4 years while AD is under contract. So they view Horford as a good player who can help them while also getting young talent with him, i.e. the Lakers pick. BOS would also take on Asik. But BOS would need to think they'll extend Cousins too. But stepping back, that's the only scenario I could see Horford moved in - to a team that wants to compete even after trading their star. Otherwise, they'd have 0 interest in him.

Beyond that unlikely scenario though, BOS has contracts to match salaries in pretty much any trade with some combination of Smart, Morris, Baynes, Rozier, Yabusele, Larkin, Nader, Ojeyle and then they can throw the LAL/SAC/PHI pick, their own 1sts, an LAC 1st and/or a MEM 1st on top of it. I don't think you're getting a top of the market star or anything for that package but you can make some competitive offers.

Next big deal DA pulls of will be something like Horford, JB, body, 2 high 1sts, 2 low 1sts for Davis.

Vinylman
09-01-2017, 08:22 AM
So you're saying that a 23 year old can't develop any further than he has after playing a bench role for the first 3 years of his career? I have a hard time believing he can't get better. Crowder is 27 and pretty much is what he is.. I'm not saying he's not a good player, just that I would rather have Smart going forward, I think Smart can be very Avery Bradley esque.


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ah... the old ... he is only XX and can develop argument... :rolleyes:

What does he do today better than his rookie year? Nothing... his shooting has gotten worse...

The only part of his game that he can significantly improve is his shooting... he has fundamentally regressed in that area from his rookie year.


no real point in worrying about it if you are a celts fan anyway... he won't be around after this year unless he has an injury and they can get him to play for the QO next year

PAOboston
09-01-2017, 08:46 AM
ah... the old ... he is only XX and can develop argument... :rolleyes:

What does he do today better than his rookie year? Nothing... his shooting has gotten worse...

The only part of his game that he can significantly improve is his shooting... he has fundamentally regressed in that area from his rookie year.


no real point in worrying about it if you are a celts fan anyway... he won't be around after this year unless he has an injury and they can get him to play for the QO next yearSmart is such a frustrating player.

He's drastically improved his FT shooting so I still think he has the potential to be at least an average 3 pt shooter one day. He has improved his ball handling and become pretty good at running the offense (compared to rookie year).

That being said, he's a defensive beast and makes big time plays when it matters. I'm one of those people who wants Smart on the floor in crunch time. That's where his value is. He's a 6th man/first guard off the bench type of guy.

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homie564
09-01-2017, 09:08 AM
Smart is such a frustrating player.

He's drastically improved his FT shooting so I still think he has the potential to be at least an average 3 pt shooter one day. He has improved his ball handling and become pretty good at running the offense (compared to rookie year).

That being said, he's a defensive beast and makes big time plays when it matters. I'm one of those people who wants Smart on the floor in crunch time. That's where his value is. He's a 6th man/first guard off the bench type of guy.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

Agreed. He has improved both his defense and free throw shooting. I am holding out hope that he can some day be a 35% 3 point shooter


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PAOboston
09-01-2017, 09:21 AM
Agreed. He has improved both his defense and free throw shooting. I am holding out hope that he can some day be a 35% 3 point shooter


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAll things considered, he averaged 11 pts, 4 rbs and 5 ast while guarding the other team's best offensive players most nights in 30 mpg. That's pretty good right there.

Maybe it clicks for him offensively one day. Kind of think his game could benefit by adding a floater. I also believe the Cs don't utilize him enough down low against other guards. He's incredibly effective in those situations.

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basch152
09-01-2017, 10:01 AM
All things considered, he averaged 11 pts, 4 rbs and 5 ast while guarding the other team's best offensive players most nights in 30 mpg. That's pretty good right there.

Maybe it clicks for him offensively one day. Kind of think his game could benefit by adding a floater. I also believe the Cs don't utilize him enough down low against other guards. He's incredibly effective in those situations.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

The guy is 23 and going into his 3rd year.

Zero reason to believe he won't continue to improve.

Vinylman
09-01-2017, 10:13 AM
Smart is such a frustrating player.

He's drastically improved his FT shooting so I still think he has the potential to be at least an average 3 pt shooter one day. He has improved his ball handling and become pretty good at running the offense (compared to rookie year).

That being said, he's a defensive beast and makes big time plays when it matters. I'm one of those people who wants Smart on the floor in crunch time. That's where his value is. He's a 6th man/first guard off the bench type of guy.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

I hear ya... he is a good player... I was mostly commenting on him vis a vis Crowder in that their contributions on a macro level are very similar yet Crowder gets a lot more grief...

Same will happen with smart if they sign him after his rookie contract where he will start making around $12 million a year...

he is probably gone in a big package this year anyway when they unload horford and more of those picks

Vinylman
09-01-2017, 10:13 AM
The guy is 23 and going into his 3rd year.

Zero reason to believe he won't continue to improve.

ummm no... he is headed into his 4th year and guys who can shoot pretty much can shoot by that age

mrblisterdundee
09-01-2017, 10:27 AM
So why did the Cavs play hard ball here? For a 2nd round pick in 2020?

It was a game of chicken. Boston won.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 10:44 AM
So apparently LeBron and Lue aren't too happy with the trade after hearing Thomas won't be ready to start the season. I think all should be well if he can return in December or January and play the season out. LeBron needs to get the Wade buyout done, sign him and get a top 3 seed and call it a day. You're still going to the finals, just make sure everyone is healthy when you get there.

hugepatsfan
09-01-2017, 11:18 AM
Un-do this trade. Watching this press conference and I don't need this peace, love and happiness hippy ******** on my favorite team smfh

Heediot
09-01-2017, 11:36 AM
So apparently LeBron and Lue aren't too happy with the trade after hearing Thomas won't be ready to start the season. I think all should be well if he can return in December or January and play the season out. LeBron needs to get the Wade buyout done, sign him and get a top 3 seed and call it a day. You're still going to the finals, just make sure everyone is healthy when you get there.

Load of crap to help take the heat off the front office. They don't make this trade without consulting lebron

hugepatsfan
09-01-2017, 11:40 AM
Hayward and Irving seem pretty close for guys just joining a team. Talked about how Kyrie recruited him before Lebron went back.

Vee-Rex
09-01-2017, 11:42 AM
Un-do this trade. Watching this press conference and I don't need this peace, love and happiness hippy ******** on my favorite team smfh

I meant to listen to that press conference. Oh well.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 11:45 AM
Load of crap to help take the heat off the front office. They don't make this trade without consulting lebron

Wouldn't LeBron and Lue not liking the trade put more heat on the FO?

hugepatsfan
09-01-2017, 11:45 AM
I meant to listen to that press conference. Oh well.

Haha he seems like a nice guy but man he's a little out there. I can totally see him thinking the world is flat.

europagnpilgrim
09-01-2017, 12:22 PM
Haha he seems like a nice guy but man he's a little out there. I can totally see him thinking the world is flat.

With more recent research we are in a cosmic egg on a flat plane, it goes way back in the ancient teachings of the cosmos, its the ying and yang balance, as above so below- as within so without

Vee-Rex
09-01-2017, 12:25 PM
https://twitter.com/Steve_R_Walker/status/903645579980546048

:laugh2:

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 12:50 PM
Kyrie is a p**** to be honest.

hugepatsfan
09-01-2017, 12:53 PM
i think you will see more isolation offensive in Boston next year. I also Brad is a great coach and will get these guys to move the ball. Last year you only had one guy that could create for himself and others. I actually think having more individually skilled offensive players and playing a little more isolation offensive as result will benefit Boston defensive. moving the ball that quickly and shooting that many thress all the time makes matching up a nightmare.

That's an interesting concept. I saw you mention it before but it got buried by the time I was at a computer to respond. That would be great if it can help our defense.

I love ball movement offense but that won't work all the time. Sometimes plays break down and you'd like to have multiple guys who if it gets stuck with them can create a good shot. I like that we have more guys who I think can do that.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
09-01-2017, 12:54 PM
Any chance IT is packaged with a Cavs pick and flipped for a win now piece? Chance IT may not be ready till very late in the season then if he doesn't heal properly then done for the season. He should of had surgery right after playoffs. His stock is dropping. More less negative trade value now. LeBron should be pissed.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 12:57 PM
Any chance IT is packaged with a Cavs pick and flipped for a win now piece? Chance IT may not be ready till very late in the season then if he doesn't heal properly then done for the season. He should of had surgery right after playoffs. His stock is dropping. More less negative trade value now. LeBron should be pissed.

LeBron isn't too happy from what I've seen.

ewing
09-01-2017, 01:09 PM
That's an interesting concept. I saw you mention it before but it got buried by the time I was at a computer to respond. That would be great if it can help our defense.

I love ball movement offense but that won't work all the time. Sometimes plays break down and you'd like to have multiple guys who if it gets stuck with them can create a good shot. I like that we have more guys who I think can do that.

think about it, when you iso the other team is match up with you on D so you do not need to scramble to when you transition from offensive to defensive- you just take who got you. Great defensive teams have most often been half court teams that isolate in the post. the reason is b/c generally when these team shoot they are already match up, they have guys at the top ready to get back, and they have fewer long rebounds. it limits transition, means you have a rim protector in most cases, and allows you to be set up and ready for the team attacking you. The notion that Boston went from near the top of the heap on D year before last to not that good this year b/c people finally realized IT is short is laughable. the biggest change the team made was they increased pace, ball movement, and 3 point attempts. it effects you ability to play D. Ball movement is great and a huge part of being good but the idea that you cant go one on one and that one on one is just bad is wrong as well

Celticsfan2007
09-01-2017, 01:11 PM
Any chance IT is packaged with a Cavs pick and flipped for a win now piece? Chance IT may not be ready till very late in the season then if he doesn't heal properly then done for the season. He should of had surgery right after playoffs. His stock is dropping. More less negative trade value now. LeBron should be pissed.

Two things to consider:

1. What teams out there are looking for a guy like IT who is on a cheap 1 year expiring deal that gonna flip you a "win now" piece? IT is a "win now" piece who is injured so I'm not sure what team out there that is in "win now" mode would want to give something of value to get IT

2. CLE absolutely DESTROYED ITs VALUE. They dragged this guys name through the mud for 5 straight days before agreeing to the trade. CLE did themselves no favors if they have any intentions of flipping IT in another deal.

FlashBolt
09-01-2017, 01:25 PM
Cavs should contact Knicks for an IT+Love+2018 1st round for Melo and KP.

LeBron
Crowder
Wade
Melo
KP
J.R. Smith
Rose
Shumpert
Frye
Richard J.
Korver
TT

Basically giving up Love+Kyrie for Melo+KP+Crowder.

hugepatsfan
09-01-2017, 01:26 PM
Cavs should contact Knicks for an IT+Love+2018 1st round for Melo and KP.

What would your next move be after the Knicks laugh and hang up?

If the Knicks would deal KP for Love then that'd already be done.

Vee-Rex
09-01-2017, 01:28 PM
That's an interesting concept. I saw you mention it before but it got buried by the time I was at a computer to respond. That would be great if it can help our defense.

I love ball movement offense but that won't work all the time. Sometimes plays break down and you'd like to have multiple guys who if it gets stuck with them can create a good shot. I like that we have more guys who I think can do that.

As crazy as this may sound, I think ISO is sometimes underrated.

The 2015 Hawks had like, zero ISO, and LeBron dominated them. There are times (especially in the playoffs) where the defense is gonna play FLAWLESSLY for stretches at a time, and if you don't have individual talent that can ISO and score over this flawless defense, your offense will stagnate.

There are even elements of this in the 2016 finals, where Curry was "hurt" and they had no one else that could reliably create their own shot. Kyrie dominated over perfect defense by Klay quite a bit. There's just nothing you can do about it.

I have grown accustomed to Kyrie's ISO and TBH, believe that every shot he put up will go in, even if some were bad. It'll be interesting to see it from an opposing viewpoint and if I feel the same way.

FlashBolt
09-01-2017, 01:29 PM
What would your next move be after the Knicks laugh and hang up?

If the Knicks would deal KP for Love then that'd already be done.

1) No guarantee KP resigns.
2) Melo is gone soon and you have no good offers at this point.
3) Still a possibility IT can be healthy and with K.Love there, he might be willing to resign.
4) You have a 1st pick in 2018.

It's much better than losing Melo for an asset no one wants (Ryan Anderson? Really?) and I doubt KP resigns now. There's too much turmoil with the Knicks. If Knicks hang up, it's on them. They have no leverage whatsoever.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 01:36 PM
IT Love TT Shumpert BKN pick for Conley Ennis and Gasol?

Conley/Rose
Wade/Smith
Crowder/Korver
LeBron/Green or Jefferson or Ennis
Gasol/???

FlashBolt
09-01-2017, 01:38 PM
IT Love TT Shumpert BKN pick for Conley Ennis and Gasol?

Why would Memphis do that? Gasol > Love+TT and Memphis loves Conley. Makes zero sense for the Cavs long-term, too, which is what I believe they want to be prepared for as well.

hugepatsfan
09-01-2017, 01:40 PM
1) No guarantee KP resigns.
2) Melo is gone soon and you have no good offers at this point.
3) Still a possibility IT can be healthy and with K.Love there, he might be willing to resign.
4) You have a 1st pick in 2018.

It's much better than losing Melo for an asset no one wants (Ryan Anderson? Really?) and I doubt KP resigns now. There's too much turmoil with the Knicks. If Knicks hang up, it's on them. They have no leverage whatsoever.

If they deal KP they're not gonna do it for late 20s players. They're just not. That's very clear based on the discussions they've already had, despite the turmoil.

valade16
09-01-2017, 01:42 PM
If Memphis trades with Cleveland it will an admission they are rebuilding and they'd want the 2018 Brooklyn pick.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 01:43 PM
Why would Memphis do that? Gasol > Love+TT and Memphis loves Conley. Makes zero sense for the Cavs long-term, too, which is what I believe they want to be prepared for as well.

Gasol said he might be looking for a change if they don't start winning more, Conley has a huge contract, LeBron isn't leaving that team. Swap TT out for some expirings if they would rather that.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 01:44 PM
Cavs should contact Knicks for an IT+Love+2018 1st round for Melo and KP.

LeBron
Crowder
Wade
Melo
KP
J.R. Smith
Rose
Shumpert
Frye
Richard J.
Korver
TT

Basically giving up Love+Kyrie for Melo+KP+Crowder.

Not even close if that's not the BKN pick.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 01:48 PM
That Memphis deal would have to happen at the trade deadline when IT is healthy and playing well and they have a better idea of where the pick will land.

Memphis looking at something like:

IT
???
Bagley/Porter/Doncic
Love
TT

Unless they want to package the pick and filler for an all star.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2017, 01:48 PM
Why would Memphis do that? Gasol > Love+TT and Memphis loves Conley. Makes zero sense for the Cavs long-term, too, which is what I believe they want to be prepared for as well.

I'll take Love over Gasol never mind Love +TT. I don't want Gasol. I do like Conley though.

hugepatsfan
09-01-2017, 02:10 PM
think about it, when you iso the other team is match up with you on D so you do not need to scramble to when you transition from offensive to defensive- you just take who got you. Great defensive teams have most often been half court teams that isolate in the post. the reason is b/c generally when these team shoot they are already match up, they have guys at the top ready to get back, and they have fewer long rebounds. it limits transition, means you have a rim protector in most cases, and allows you to be set up and ready for the team attacking you. The notion that Boston went from near the top of the heap on D year before last to not that good this year b/c people finally realized IT is short is laughable. the biggest change the team made was they increased pace, ball movement, and 3 point attempts. it effects you ability to play D. Ball movement is great and a huge part of being good but the idea that you cant go one on one and that one on one is just bad is wrong as well

I don't think people blame IT for the fall-off. He was bad and continued to be bad. He's an issue on defense no doubt but not a part of the year over year change.

Bradley played 21 less games. Amir definitely showed signs of aging. Evan Turner was a good, versatile defender for us and he was gone. Crowder I thought regressed. Those I would say were the biggest reasons on the defensive end for our fall-off as far as guys actually playing on that end.

But you make a great point about the ball movement and 3s. Long rebounds hurt in transition off missed 3s and running around as part of set plays can make you tired and hurt you on the other end. We should be able to do less of that this year and let some more individual talent shine. Just gotta find that healthy balance.


As crazy as this may sound, I think ISO is sometimes underrated.

The 2015 Hawks had like, zero ISO, and LeBron dominated them. There are times (especially in the playoffs) where the defense is gonna play FLAWLESSLY for stretches at a time, and if you don't have individual talent that can ISO and score over this flawless defense, your offense will stagnate.

There are even elements of this in the 2016 finals, where Curry was "hurt" and they had no one else that could reliably create their own shot. Kyrie dominated over perfect defense by Klay quite a bit. There's just nothing you can do about it.

I have grown accustomed to Kyrie's ISO and TBH, believe that every shot he put up will go in, even if some were bad. It'll be interesting to see it from an opposing viewpoint and if I feel the same way.

Extremes are rarely a good path. Like you said, sometimes the defense clamps down on you. You need guys that can make something happen in those spots. You can't just give up on those possessions. And unfortunately the play won't always break down while your best player has the ball. Sometimes your secondary options need to do it too.

WaDe03
09-01-2017, 02:22 PM
I'll take Love over Gasol never mind Love +TT. I don't want Gasol. I do like Conley though.

Gasol is arguably the best stretch 5 in the league though, good passer and defender. It puts LeBron at the 4 which is his best position and they get a big upgrade at PG with Conley who is very good on both ends.

redsox12
09-01-2017, 02:25 PM
I think CLE is going to make a huge push for Chris Paul in the off season. I could see the BYN pick going to Memphis for Gasol. Love traded out somewhere.

Cavs 18/19

SG Wade
PG Paul
SF LeBron
PF Thompson
C Gasol

likemystylez
09-01-2017, 06:22 PM
I think CLE is going to make a huge push for Chris Paul in the off season. I could see the BYN pick going to Memphis for Gasol. Love traded out somewhere.

Cavs 18/19

SG Wade
PG Paul
SF LeBron
PF Thompson
C Gasol

They dont have cap space to go after chris paul or to just absorb gasols contract trading a draft pick.

Also lebrons gone next summer, so not sure everyone is gonna wanna come

homie564
09-01-2017, 07:01 PM
1) No guarantee KP resigns.
2) Melo is gone soon and you have no good offers at this point.
3) Still a possibility IT can be healthy and with K.Love there, he might be willing to resign.
4) You have a 1st pick in 2018.

It's much better than losing Melo for an asset no one wants (Ryan Anderson? Really?) and I doubt KP resigns now. There's too much turmoil with the Knicks. If Knicks hang up, it's on them. They have no leverage whatsoever.

The Knicks asked for #3, 2018 Nets Pick, Jaylen Brown, and Jae Crowder for Porzingis alone... that's not even close to enough


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

basch152
09-01-2017, 09:26 PM
ummm no... he is headed into his 4th year and guys who can shoot pretty much can shoot by that age

I meant 4th year and you have no idea what you're talking about. there's a long history of players that couldn't shoot early in their careers and became far better later in their career.

Both MJs come directly to mind.

To think someone can't improve at 23 is ****ing ********.

More-Than-Most
09-02-2017, 01:33 AM
I hate the notion that the team with said best player has no leverage... much like teams were saying the cavs had no leverage because kyrie wanted out so accept a deal like the pacers got lol... When in all actuality they did have leverage and bent ainge over.

Will porz resign? Probably not... but the leverage comes from having the best player... The knicks should be able to get a similar package that the cavs just got for kyrie... meaning a young talented player like a tatum/fultz and a few draft picks.

IKnowHoops
09-02-2017, 02:01 AM
Gasol is arguably the best stretch 5 in the league though, good passer and defender. It puts LeBron at the 4 which is his best position and they get a big upgrade at PG with Conley who is very good on both ends.

I'll take Conley all day. Give me cousins or Davis. Keep Gasoline.

eDush
09-02-2017, 10:16 AM
I think CLE is going to make a huge push for Chris Paul in the off season. I could see the BYN pick going to Memphis for Gasol. Love traded out somewhere.

Cavs 18/19

SG Wade
PG Paul
SF LeBron
PF Thompson
C Gasol

They dont have cap space to go after chris paul or to just absorb gasols contract trading a draft pick.

Also lebrons gone next summer, so not sure everyone is gonna wanna comeTrue on the cap space but why would Lebron leave next season? Lebron will be hated if he ever leaves Cleveland again, trust me on this. You are better Stylez :nod:

Vinylman
09-05-2017, 08:05 AM
I meant 4th year and you have no idea what you're talking about. there's a long history of players that couldn't shoot early in their careers and became far better later in their career.

Both MJs come directly to mind.

To think someone can't improve at 23 is ****ing ********.

keep telling yourself that... he has shown no improvement in his shooting over the first 3 years...

both MJ's ... yep ... when I think of smart that is the company I put him in... truly absurd

CELTICS4LYFE
09-05-2017, 09:10 AM
keep telling yourself that... he has shown no improvement in his shooting over the first 3 years...

both MJ's ... yep ... when I think of smart that is the company I put him in... truly absurd


Smarts not going to become a great shooter.

2 things he'll benefit from this year, 1. Playing his role, defense/2nd unit ball handler, not trying to step up for and underdog/scrappy team and 2. Shooting % would look much better if he didn't chuck shots at the end of the clock/quarters which he loves to do.

So better shot selection and playing his role will benefit him more than anything. Nobody is looking for him to be a big scorer anyway, what he does on defense changes the game enough.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
09-05-2017, 09:19 AM
Its nice to have a elite defender. But even when Bucks had Moute he couldn't shoot to save his life. So on offense it was like playing 4 vs 5. Just before Bucks finally got rid of Moute. He started shooting corner threes. It was scary. He made some though. But that was 5 years later after rookie season. I wouldn't want Smart on his next contract. Moute was nice on rookie contract. Then on the MLE us fans wanted him gone. Plus he got the case of the injury bug and his defense slipped.

Vinylman
09-05-2017, 09:49 AM
Smarts not going to become a great shooter.

2 things he'll benefit from this year, 1. Playing his role, defense/2nd unit ball handler, not trying to step up for and underdog/scrappy team and 2. Shooting % would look much better if he didn't chuck shots at the end of the clock/quarters which he loves to do.

So better shot selection and playing his role will benefit him more than anything. Nobody is looking for him to be a big scorer anyway, what he does on defense changes the game enough.

The conversation has evolved over the last 6-7 pages... it all started with the shiitting on crowder and my point was simple... Smart is not a good shooter... never will be... he is a great defender, scrappy as hell, a glue guy which is all nice when you are on a rookie deal... when his next contract is going to be a 4/$48 million commitment he is really no different in terms of total contribution than crowder....

the same people shiitting on crowder will be shiiting on smart once he signs a new deal

homie564
09-05-2017, 09:55 AM
The conversation has evolved over the last 6-7 pages... it all started with the shiitting on crowder and my point was simple... Smart is not a good shooter... never will be... he is a great defender, scrappy as hell, a glue guy which is all nice when you are on a rookie deal... when his next contract is going to be a 4/$48 million commitment he is really no different in terms of total contribution than crowder....

the same people shiitting on crowder will be shiiting on smart once he signs a new deal

I don't think anyone is "********" on Crowder... people are just saying he's not as good as fans around the league believe he is... he's a streaky shooter with slightly overrated defense. Smart is a bad shooter with great defense... my personal opinion is that a prefer the great defensive player as as opposed to the "master of none" so to speak. I think Smart could end up as an Avery Bradley type player but will end up making less money at least in the short term.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Vinylman
09-05-2017, 10:10 AM
I don't think anyone is "********" on Crowder... people are just saying he's not as good as fans around the league believe he is... he's a streaky shooter with slightly overrated defense. Smart is a bad shooter with great defense... my personal opinion is that a prefer the great defensive player as as opposed to the "master of none" so to speak. I think Smart could end up as an Avery Bradley type player but will end up making less money at least in the short term.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

reasonable... probably at best though on the offensive end.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
09-05-2017, 10:20 AM
I wouldn't mind Crowder on the Bucks for Delly and second round pick. Delly is close with LeBron yet anyway. They were like buddies before. But I think LeBron would prefer Bledsoe first to win. Delly would be a bench piece not a starter. Delly doesn't start for the Bucks either with Brogdon. Also Crowder was from Marquette.

Green_Monster
09-05-2017, 10:31 AM
I wouldn't mind Crowder on the Bucks for Delly and second round pick. Delly is close with LeBron yet anyway. They were like buddies before. But I think LeBron would prefer Bledsoe first to win. Delly would be a bench piece not a starter. Delly doesn't start for the Bucks either with Brogdon. Also Crowder was from Marquette.

That deal isn't getting you Crowder.