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View Full Version : Who Has The More Pressure/More Despera To Complete the Deal? -- Boston or Cleveland?



LaVar Ball
08-29-2017, 01:49 PM
People say that Boston has all the leverage has they don't have to part with any extra assets to get Kyrie. Some say they're still in good shape and can contend in the East if they keep Thomas, Crowder and Zizic to go along with Horford and Hayward. Many say that Cleveland has to get rid of Kyrie because no way that LeBron-Kyrie can be a duo anymore.



I look at it a different way, and it in some sorts reminds of the Chis Paul veto trade back in 2011 that consisted of a 3 way trade between the Lakers, NOLA and Houston. Lamar Odom was supposed to be traded to NOLA, but instead, was brought back to the Lakers, and the Lakers knew he was damaged goods emotionally and traded him to the Mavericks for a first round pick and a $8.9M TPE.



There's no way Boston can bring back a vetoed Isaiah Thomas (bad hip and now emotionally scarred after giving his heart and soul to the organization following his sister's untimely death). Boston loses leverage as other teams know that Isaiah's value has deeply plummeted. And say Isaiah does come back healthy for the '17-18 season in Boston, it just won't be the same because now that trust is broken.



I think at this point for the Celtics, it has now become more of getting rid of Thomas over acquiring Irving.



Your thoughts.

R. Johnson#3
08-29-2017, 01:53 PM
If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2017, 01:58 PM
If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.

yeah not a bad take. I agree

Jamiecballer
08-29-2017, 01:58 PM
I say definitely Cleveland. This move was never expected, if it falls apart I don't think it will affect Thomas after he's had a few weeks to digest it. Cleveland however absolutely cannot bring Irving back.

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Heediot
08-29-2017, 02:14 PM
If back to square one Cleveland.

Worst case scenario for Boston here is they let IT expire with no return. He's going to play hard because of the contract year. Crowder is a pro and he is wired to play hard and play with grit, that's just his character. Both of these guys value might take a hit, but Boston can take the worse scenarios with these guys. Thomas is still tradable because he is an expiring. Crowder is tradable because he has one of the best contracts in the league. The only thing is if they are disgruntled their values go down. But even a trade with another team using these two as filler with the BK pick and Zizic will still get you a premium asset in return IMO given the precedent of the Butler/Cp/DMC/PG trades.

For Boston no one is under pressure to do anything. Stevens job is one of the safest in the league and so is Ainge's. They have assets and flexibility galore.

Boston can let things come to them and not force the issue. You never know when a Cousins or Marc Gasol becomes available. You never know when someone else gets disgruntled. You never know when a team flops and someone becomes available.

Cleveland OTOH is under pressure and desperate no matter what. If they take the Millwaukee and Phoenix trades, they are sweating to see if the team is good enough for LeBron to re-sign. Out of the three trades, the one with Boston is the best trade if LeBron decides to dip. the Brooklyn pick gives you the best rebuild asset. Out of the three trades, the Boston pick gives you the most flexibility to improve even further at the deadline as well if you want to go all in.

Cleveland is under pressure period. Any Kyrie trade is magnified because of the LeBron situation at the end of the year. Cleveland has to tread carefully and precisely within a shorter time frame. Boston isn't forced to do anything.

hugepatsfan
08-29-2017, 02:27 PM
Instead of Kyrie, BOS ends up with BRK pick, Zizic and Crowder to build with for the future if the deal falls through (assuming IT is allowed to walk or traded for whatever value they can salvage).

Instead of IT/Crowder/Zizic/BRK pick, the Cavs likely get Middleton and Brogden along with a non-premium 1st rounder from MIL. That's the rumored "runner-up" package.

For BOS, there's actually the upside that they end up better. The BRK pick could be a stud, Zizic could develop well, Crowder is a solid player/trade chip and they have extra salary flexibility in a few years to add around the young rookie contract guys (Brown, Tatum, 2018 BRK pick, LAL/SAC pick, Zizic, Yabusele) once Horford and Hayward expire in 3 years. The benefit of the deal for BOS is that Kyrie still fits into that timeline along with making them more formidable short-term and he's a known thing unlike that BRK pick, Zizic and what they could land with extra salary flexibility. So that's their loss - not turning some unknown assets into a known quantity and gambling they can match or exceed Irving.

CLE if they do the MIL deal might arguably be better short-term if they can work out the chemistry on offense. Because they're certainly better on D by virtue of not replacing Kyrie with an even worse defender (assuming IT plays at all). But realistically if they are better, it doesn't at all make them a threat to catch GS. And unlike with the BRK pick, there wouldn't appear to be a package of assets that would enable to trade for a star to help them do that. And then of course in the event that Lebron leaves I think you'd rather have the BRK pick to build with than a role player who will require an extension in 2 years (Middleton), a limited upside guy in Brogden that will be an RFA in 2 years and then a projected to be late 1st. So that's their loss - settling for kind of a "no man's land" deal that doesn't really help push them past GS or give them flexibility to nor does it help a potential rebuild as much if Lebron leaves.

LOb0
08-29-2017, 02:36 PM
Cavs.

Good luck getting a pick as good as the Nets.

We'll take back IT and work it out. The only thing he cares about is money anyway. He's going to the highest bidder, and with his health he might not be getting as much as he hoped. At worst IT walks and we keep our Nets pick.

Cavs future is totally f***ed after Bron leaves this year, they've traded away their picks and have horrible contracts.

cheddar08
08-29-2017, 03:05 PM
To me Boston has the leverage simply because they are probably the only team in the NBA who can send back win now talent coupled with a very nice draft pick. I get the fact that Boston would have a tough time bringing back IT and Crowder, but at the same time they play for the guys in the locker room so I am sure they would go along to get along with their teammates. Kyrie has an issue with his teammate(s) and that can cause issues in the locker room.

Back to the trade though, there is basically no other team that can offer the Cavs a solid PG, decent wing on a great contract, and a top lotto in one package. Other teams can either offer a nice pick/young players or solid win now talent but not both. Therefore I think Boston has the advantage.

Green_Monster
08-29-2017, 03:08 PM
If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.

IT is playing for his next contract. He'll be upset, but still a good player. He knows a bad season means he won't get paid as much.

Rivera
08-29-2017, 03:12 PM
neither

Cavs hold Kyries rights and dont have to move him

Boston will have the crap ton of assets back

Feelings will be smooted over between today and the start of the season. Its not like Crowder or IT are going to boycott the Cs they are professionals and when its time to ball they will.

If I had a guess, id say Cleveland more because I dont think they can get a better deal and it would be harder to bring back Kyrie than IT and Crowder. I could see Kyrie genuinely holding out, IT is playing for a contact and Jae is emotional, he will be fine

hugepatsfan
08-29-2017, 03:26 PM
BOS is unlikely to get an opportunity for a proven top ~20 player like Kyrie for only one of Brown/Tatum/2018 BRK pick/LAL or SAC pick. It's unlikely a team moving a player like Kyrie would be in the position CLE is to value someone like Crowder to the extent they do to where it won't take a second younger, high upside asset.

dhopisthename
08-29-2017, 03:28 PM
If Kyrie goes back to Cleveland then they're in the exact same situation they were in before. If IT goes back then Boston's FO has to deal with a player who embraced the team and city only to get shoved out the door. There will definitely be tension and it could be a huge problem for a franchise trying to contend. The pressure is on Boston.

yeah I think this way as well. i think Thomas might demand a trade or something if it gets cancelled.

Green_Monster
08-29-2017, 03:41 PM
yeah I think this way as well. i think Thomas might demand a trade or something if it gets cancelled.

He has no leverage though. He needs to prove he can play with the hip injury if he wants to get paid. Playing in Boston with Brad Stevens is where he'll likely put up his best numbers.

Cal827
08-29-2017, 04:00 PM
Next Season: Boston. Without Irving, and getting back two disgruntled players and a physically hurt Thomas would likely mean that they either remain stagnant having to set a new system up without a starting guard and plenty of new players or possibly get upset by a team that just under them but have had a few years together as a Core (Washington, Toronto, Milwaukee). It'll likely be a temporary issue, as they have a ton of high picks (including the one that would go back to them) to either use or trade for a franchise guard that might become available.

After next season, and overall: Cleveland. They were somehow able to get Boston to part with an UNPROTECTED Brooklyn Nets pick as well as another first rounder in Zizic... They even got Crowder, who's a pretty good 3/D player and his size can be valuable for different systems for a guy who is basically having a hissy fit in order to get out of Cleveland.. . They can develop both players within THEIR system and not worry about resetting anything within them. This puts them in a perfect position considering they don't know what Lebron is opting to.... Frankly, if they feel that he's leaving at this point, they should not GAF about what he wants around him and focus on the future, and draft another guy who they can build around and anything extra this season would be nice; neither team is getting by Golden State or a few other teams in the West pending injuries.

As hard as it is to say this as he's one of the greatest of all time, time always wins. Lebron has been playing basketball non stop since 2003. Constant deep playoff runs, olympics, etc....He's going to be 33 this year. He probably won't be able to carry a team near as much as he does now in 2019-2020, especially considering much of his game relies on his athleticism and durability. Cleveland needs to be looking at developing/acquiring a star to develop at this point, regardless of whether or not Lebron stays; if you can get a top 5 pick in a top heavy draft, you take it. As we saw with another durable player who played so much from when he was drafted in Kobe, injuries can hit with a ton of bricks.

Of course, if they choose to mortgage the future, and go all out in hopes that Lebron resigns, then that Brooklyn pick is probably the biggest asset in trying to trade for another star. Not sure if they would even stay, seeing that Cleveland's reputation is being dragged for essentially pulling this crap despite reports saying they had all of the information.

IndyRealist
08-29-2017, 04:06 PM
Cleveland hands down. Boston has all the assets. No offer they get for Irving will replace him as well as Thomas would. They're not getting that level of pick from anyone else either because anyone else with a pick that high does not need a win-now player on a max deal. And Crowder is exactly what they need on their bench, at a reasonable price.

Boston does not have to trade Thomas. They can lose him in free agency and still have multiple picks and players to reload with via draft or trade. At some point, Sacramento will be selling on George Hill, for instance, once they are confident that De'Aaron Fox can take the wheel.

dhopisthename
08-29-2017, 04:25 PM
He has no leverage though. He needs to prove he can play with the hip injury if he wants to get paid. Playing in Boston with Brad Stevens is where he'll likely put up his best numbers.

probably, but Irving already wanted out, but now Thomas and Crowder are going to want out and having two players that want out is going to be a problem in the locker room. they might have to trade both if a deal can't ever get done. Cleveland is in a much worse spot then the Celtics overall, but this deal falling though hurts the Celtics more.

corky831
08-29-2017, 04:55 PM
Cleveland, it will look bad that the deal was called off after a week of being in limbo with a rookie GM. They won't get an asset as good as Nets pick/zizic/Crowder. Brogdon/Middleton/and a 20 something 1st rounder is not bad, but I don't think that's what Cleveland would want, with no real possibility of obtaining a superstar. They will most likely have that chance with obtaining the Nets pick. If the trade falls through, Boston will get another great pick next yr (possibly 2 if LA sucks), Zizic, and crowder. IT will either play or not play, but I like rozier and would like to see what he can do with extended minutes

hugepatsfan
08-29-2017, 04:56 PM
Cleveland hands down. Boston has all the assets. No offer they get for Irving will replace him as well as Thomas would. They're not getting that level of pick from anyone else either because anyone else with a pick that high does not need a win-now player on a max deal. And Crowder is exactly what they need on their bench, at a reasonable price.

Boston does not have to trade Thomas. They can lose him in free agency and still have multiple picks and players to reload with via draft or trade. At some point, Sacramento will be selling on George Hill, for instance, once they are confident that De'Aaron Fox can take the wheel.

Just gonna speak on the Boston part of your post...

The bolded is key. Don't get me wrong, letting IT go from top 5 MVP vote getter to gone for nothing would be a huge loss of value. HUGE. But let's just go on the assumption that that's what will happen if the deal falls through - IT walks for nothing.

Option 1) Kyrie

Option 2) Crowder, BRK pick, Zizic, some extra cap flexibility down the road compared to if Kyrier were traded for and eventually extended

I personally would prefer Kyrie at age 25 with what seems a realistic shot at an extension BUT...

1) It's realistic that the BRK pick could land a very good player.
2) It's realistic that Zizic could down the line develop into a rotational player.
3) It's realistic that Crowder could be flipped for something of value now or later.
4) It's realistic that down the line a team with jaylen Brown on an RFA cap hold and Tatum/2018 BRK pick/future LAL or SAC pick/Zizic/Yabusele all on rookie deals and Brad Stevens coaching could be a FA draw.

It's realistic that BOS could end up better off for the deal falling through. But it puts a ton of faith in unknowns - where picks land, player development, which FAs become available, etc.

I think the value in this deal for BOS is that Kyrie is a sure thing. He's a top ~20 player at only 25 years old and seems to be interested in staying long-term by reports. I think it's a very good value for cashing some (not nearly all) of the assets in. But BOS is still in great position going forward if the deal collapses and IT ends up walking for nothing. It's not do or die is what I'm saying.

hugepatsfan
08-29-2017, 05:03 PM
Cleveland, it will look bad that the deal was called off after a week of being in limbo with a rookie GM. They won't get an asset as good as Nets pick/zizic/Crowder. Brogdon/Middleton/and a 20 something 1st rounder is not bad, but I don't think that's what Cleveland would want, with no real possibility of obtaining a superstar. They will most likely have that chance with obtaining the Nets pick. If the trade falls through, Boston will get another great pick next yr (possibly 2 if LA sucks), Zizic, and crowder. IT will either play or not play, but I like rozier and would like to see what he can do with extended minutes

That MIL offer in th immediate aftermath makes CLE better though. Heck, Middleton/Brodgen arguably make them btter than IT/Crowder because of defense.

But you're right about what that BRK pick could ultimately land them. Kyrie out and Middleton/Brogden doesn't get CLE over the top vs. GS and still leaves them struggling to put together the assets to add a player that does IMO.

Even if IT misses the entire year I still think Crowder and a star player acquired via trade w/out giving up a guy like Love would make CLE better than Middleton/Brogden. The BRK pick could allow them to work that out potentially. And then they still have bird rights on IT to get him once he's recovered from surgery as an added bonus. Could help keep Lebron. or if he goes they could have a jump start on the rebuild with the BRK pick.

There are uncertainties in there though. I'm not gonna play the game of "who has more to lose" because in reality I think both teams agreed to the deal because it bettered them. In the end I think both are settling for lesser options if this deal is called of.

corky831
08-29-2017, 05:12 PM
I also believe the Cs never wanted to keep IT long term either because they were trying to get another pick in the lottery this past draft to take Dennis Smith Jr. Boston worked him out twice. If the trade falls through, I wouldn't be surprised to see Boston take Collin Sexton if the Nets pick falls out of the top 4 or 5.

Oakmont_4
08-29-2017, 05:56 PM
The Celtics can't lose here.

A. The vast majority agree this was an overpayment by the Celtics, though still worth it. Add me in that category. They paid more than they should have, but ultimately got the better player who is only 25 so I was good with it. If it doesn't go through, BOS gets back the better pieces. They weren't true contenders before or after the trade...Vetoing the trade changes nothing for this season. Nothing at all.

B. IT can mope and be heartbroken but the fact is, he HAS to work his way back from injury because he's in a contract year. If he wants that brinks truck he's been talking about for 1.5 years. Sucking it up and playing well is his only option. It's unfortunate that it may come to that, he doesn't deserve to be in that situation, but it is what it is. Moping and being a locker room cancer is not an option. If he does it, he'll be sent home away from the team and that WILL NOT help him get a maximum value contract, whatever that may end up being.

C. Crowder. He's not damaged goods at all. Any playoff team would love to have a guy like him. It would be understandable if he didn't want to come back to BOS. He can easily be traded in a smaller deal for something of value for the Celtics. If that became the case, I'd take a draft pick from someone and keep planning long term.

D. BRK and Zizic. Both of these can be utilized in the future to build this team around Brown and Tatum. Great assets to have.

BOS is in a fine position. CLE on the other hand would have to turn around and accept a lesser deal. Considering their working with a 1 year plan, that is not ideal. If LBJ leaves, they're going to look really bad for walking away from that BRK pick. If he stays, they'd be able to improve the team around him much better with that BRK pick than without it.

CLE has higher expectations this year and next year have far more question marks about their future. Walking away from this deal would not be a good look for them. Part of me wants them to, because I really want that BRK pick...Even if it only ends up being #5-6, it still has immense value. Especially for a team who's future is not 2017 but more like 2020-2021 and beyond.

Celticsfan2007
08-29-2017, 06:16 PM
The Celtics can't lose here.

A. The vast majority agree this was an overpayment by the Celtics, though still worth it. Add me in that category. They paid more than they should have, but ultimately got the better player who is only 25 so I was good with it. If it doesn't go through, BOS gets back the better pieces. They weren't true contenders before or after the trade...Vetoing the trade changes nothing for this season. Nothing at all.

B. IT can mope and be heartbroken but the fact is, he HAS to work his way back from injury because he's in a contract year. If he wants that brinks truck he's been talking about for 1.5 years. Sucking it up and playing well is his only option. It's unfortunate that it may come to that, he doesn't deserve to be in that situation, but it is what it is. Moping and being a locker room cancer is not an option. If he does it, he'll be sent home away from the team and that WILL NOT help him get a maximum value contract, whatever that may end up being.

C. Crowder. He's not damaged goods at all. Any playoff team would love to have a guy like him. It would be understandable if he didn't want to come back to BOS. He can easily be traded in a smaller deal for something of value for the Celtics. If that became the case, I'd take a draft pick from someone and keep planning long term.

D. BRK and Zizic. Both of these can be utilized in the future to build this team around Brown and Tatum. Great assets to have.

BOS is in a fine position. CLE on the other hand would have to turn around and accept a lesser deal. Considering their working with a 1 year plan, that is not ideal. If LBJ leaves, they're going to look really bad for walking away from that BRK pick. If he stays, they'd be able to improve the team around him much better with that BRK pick than without it.

CLE has higher expectations this year and next year have far more question marks about their future. Walking away from this deal would not be a good look for them. Part of me wants them to, because I really want that BRK pick...Even if it only ends up being #5-6, it still has immense value. Especially for a team who's future is not 2017 but more like 2020-2021 and beyond.

This. This is why I hope CLE is dumb enough to cancel this trade.

Kyrie does nothing to move the needle next season. Let the young guys (Brown and Tatum) continue to develop, keep punting and hope that BKLYN pick/Lakers pick turn into solid picks or can be used to bring a true superstar to boston (i.e. Anthony Davis)

IndyRealist
08-29-2017, 06:36 PM
Just gonna speak on the Boston part of your post...

The bolded is key. Don't get me wrong, letting IT go from top 5 MVP vote getter to gone for nothing would be a huge loss of value. HUGE. But let's just go on the assumption that that's what will happen if the deal falls through - IT walks for nothing.

Option 1) Kyrie

Option 2) Crowder, BRK pick, Zizic, some extra cap flexibility down the road compared to if Kyrier were traded for and eventually extended

I personally would prefer Kyrie at age 25 with what seems a realistic shot at an extension BUT...

1) It's realistic that the BRK pick could land a very good player.
2) It's realistic that Zizic could down the line develop into a rotational player.
3) It's realistic that Crowder could be flipped for something of value now or later.
4) It's realistic that down the line a team with jaylen Brown on an RFA cap hold and Tatum/2018 BRK pick/future LAL or SAC pick/Zizic/Yabusele all on rookie deals and Brad Stevens coaching could be a FA draw.

It's realistic that BOS could end up better off for the deal falling through. But it puts a ton of faith in unknowns - where picks land, player development, which FAs become available, etc.

I think the value in this deal for BOS is that Kyrie is a sure thing. He's a top ~20 player at only 25 years old and seems to be interested in staying long-term by reports. I think it's a very good value for cashing some (not nearly all) of the assets in. But BOS is still in great position going forward if the deal collapses and IT ends up walking for nothing. It's not do or die is what I'm saying.

For next year, I think the value Thomas + Crowder brings is greater than the value Irving brings. Long term, Crowder + Brown/Tatum + the pick is a better value that Irving for 2 years. It's not a sure thing that Irving would resign in Boston any more than it is that the pick pans out.

mrblisterdundee
08-29-2017, 07:15 PM
The team losing Lebron.

hugepatsfan
08-29-2017, 07:32 PM
Ainge gonna trade Kyrie to Brooklyn mid season to ruin the pick. Then he'll sign Lebron in the offseason. Lebron gets to **** over Kyrie and Gilbert and stay in the east. Stay woke.

R. Johnson#3
08-29-2017, 07:36 PM
IT is playing for his next contract. He'll be upset, but still a good player. He knows a bad season means he won't get paid as much.

True but he can still sand bag it on D even more than he already does. Everyone already knows he can't play defence so if he just stopped trying altogether it probably wouldn't effect his pay day. IT is clearly hurt by the move, I have a hard time believing he wipes the slate clean if he went back.

LA4life24/8
08-29-2017, 08:10 PM
I think cleveland they are in a more desparate situation w lebrons fa looming. That nets pick provides them a possible future superstar to build around cuz no superstar is gonna choose cleveland via fa.

It'd be different if lebron was signed long term or had said he's in the land for good.

As previously stated IT would go back to boston w a chip on his hip (lolz) and wanna show boston what they are gonna miss when be leaves.

j-bay
08-29-2017, 08:14 PM
Well it appears we know who is more desperate


Cleveland and Boston officials started to engage each other on a solution on Tuesday, league sources told ESPN. Cleveland is no longer seeking one of the Celtics' top young players or significant draft picks, league sources said. The Cavaliers could be inclined to complete the deal for a late first-round pick or second-round considerations, league sources said.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20501325/isaiah-thomas-says-return-hip-injury-same-player

Close thread

IKnowHoops
08-29-2017, 10:07 PM
Cleveland, it will look bad that the deal was called off after a week of being in limbo with a rookie GM. They won't get an asset as good as Nets pick/zizic/Crowder. Brogdon/Middleton/and a 20 something 1st rounder is not bad, but I don't think that's what Cleveland would want, with no real possibility of obtaining a superstar. They will most likely have that chance with obtaining the Nets pick. If the trade falls through, Boston will get another great pick next yr (possibly 2 if LA sucks), Zizic, and crowder. IT will either play or not play, but I like rozier and would like to see what he can do with extended minutes

If I'm Cleveland, I try and get Brogdon,Middleton, and Parker. I'd take that package easily over the Boston Package.

PG Brogdon/Rose
SG Middleton/Wade/JR
SF Melo/Shumpert
PF Lebron/Parker
C Love/TT

I'd ride with that squad 100% healthy. If they can get the chemistry, they have a shot against GS.

LOb0
08-29-2017, 10:13 PM
If I'm Cleveland, I try and get Brogdon,Middleton, and Parker. I'd take that package easily over the Boston Package.

PG Brogdon/Rose
SG Middleton/Wade/JR
SF Melo/Shumpert
PF Lebron/Parker
C Love/TT

I'd ride with that squad 100% healthy. If they can get the chemistry, they have a shot against GS.

Parker blows out his knee on the way to Ohio.

homie564
08-29-2017, 10:27 PM
Ainge gonna trade Kyrie to Brooklyn mid season to ruin the pick. Then he'll sign Lebron in the offseason. Lebron gets to **** over Kyrie and Gilbert and stay in the east. Stay woke.

Trades Kyrie to Brooklyn for their 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 first (some of those are pick swaps), they trade for Carmelo Anthony. Kyrie bolts for Free agency and Brooklyn sucks again in 2020 giving Boston 4 more lottery picks and screws over the Cavs in one fell swoop


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FlashBolt
08-29-2017, 11:04 PM
I honestly don't like Jabari. He doesn't fit on the Cavs. Bad defense, slow footed, doesn't make any threes, and his health will always be a huge concern out there. I think Cavs should try and get Delly back on the team but Cavs are already filled on the PG spot. They need some frontcourt guys capable of sizing up vs the Warriors.

Firefistus
08-30-2017, 01:27 PM
One thing absolutely zero people have talked about.

IT is in a contract year (everyone has said this). That means you will be renting IT for 1 year, in which most of the season he will be injured (if he plays at all). Then you get the opportunity to pay max money for him IF he's willing to play on your team afterwards.

It's the same situation with Paul George and the Thunder, except Isiah Thomas was 5th in the MVP votes last year, Paul George wasn't on that list.

I just don't see how Cleveland is on the wire here. They have 2 other teams lining up to take Irving (Phoenix and Milwaukee). They still have 2 weeks before pre-season, longer before the season starts, still plenty of time to trade Irving.

Now on the flip side for Boston.

Boston fans have already burned IT's jersey, despite it not being IT's decision. He's going to be pissed off, and he's not going to play half the season already. So he's going to be sitting the bench seething.

Crowder was already upset that the Boston fans wanted Hayward over Crowder, this isn't going to help the situation.

If this trade doesn't happen I wouldn't be surprised if both of them want out. IT is REALLY hard to trade at this point, and Crowder isn't worth a whole lot asset wise, and every team will know they have to trade those 2.

Like I said earlier, Cleveland already has other deals lined up waiting to go, they have no NEED to trade with the Celtics, and I understand why they want more than an injured almost MVP point guard (they already have an injury prone MVP PG in Derrick Rose) and the possibility of landing a top 5 draft pick. Sure it has the chance to be a number 1 pick, but even if you get that number 1 pick, it's still not guaranteed that pick will be a stud.

LaVar Ball
08-30-2017, 01:28 PM
I just don't see how Cleveland is on the wire here. They have 2 other teams lining up to take Irving (Phoenix and Milwaukee). They still have 2 weeks before pre-season, longer before the season starts, still plenty of time to trade Irving.





Actually, Phoenix isn't in the fold unless they're willing to give up Josh Jackson, which they're not.

Oakmont_4
08-30-2017, 01:54 PM
One thing absolutely zero people have talked about.

Pretty much all of this has been talked about here.


IT is in a contract year (everyone has said this). That means you will be renting IT for 1 year, in which most of the season he will be injured (if he plays at all). Then you get the opportunity to pay max money for him IF he's willing to play on your team afterwards.

IT is not the valuable piece in this deal, the BRK pick is. No team can match the BRK pick in a package right now.


It's the same situation with Paul George and the Thunder, except Isiah Thomas was 5th in the MVP votes last year, Paul George wasn't on that list.

IND fetched far less for George. The BRK pick, Crowder and Zizic would be a better package than what IND got.


I just don't see how Cleveland is on the wire here. They have 2 other teams lining up to take Irving (Phoenix and Milwaukee). They still have 2 weeks before pre-season, longer before the season starts, still plenty of time to trade Irving.

Neither teams offer is better past this season for CLE. Bledsoe isn't a building block and they're not going to offer Jackson. Crowder and the BRK pick is a better deal. Middleton, Brogdon and a first is pretty decent. But again, none of those pieces or building blocks nor more valuable in a trade than the BRK pick.



Boston fans have already burned IT's jersey, despite it not being IT's decision. He's going to be pissed off, and he's not going to play half the season already. So he's going to be sitting the bench seething.

How does a couple of fans burning a jersey factor into anything? Plenty (the majority) still love and adore IT. Him being pissed and moping and being a locker room cancer gets him a MAX contract how? It's in his best interest to play very well next season no matter where he is.


Crowder was already upset that the Boston fans wanted Hayward over Crowder, this isn't going to help the situation.

Crowder can be traded in a smaller deal very easily. Not an issue.



If this trade doesn't happen I wouldn't be surprised if both of them want out. IT is REALLY hard to trade at this point, and Crowder isn't worth a whole lot asset wise, and every team will know they have to trade those 2.

Crowder, an above average 3 and D player on a very nice contract has value. IT not so much, my guess is BOS would have him play in BOS if he came back. Again, him not playing well only screws himself.


Like I said earlier, Cleveland already has other deals lined up waiting to go, they have no NEED to trade with the Celtics, and I understand why they want more than an injured almost MVP point guard (they already have an injury prone MVP PG in Derrick Rose) and the possibility of landing a top 5 draft pick. Sure it has the chance to be a number 1 pick, but even if you get that number 1 pick, it's still not guaranteed that pick will be a stud

The BRK pick has more value than any piece PHO or MIL are offering. The conversation ends right there. If it didn't, CLE would have voided this trade 5 days ago. They want that pick.

Kyben36
08-30-2017, 02:24 PM
Cavs to me. I do not think they get anything close to that offer from another team. it would look terrible for the Celtics to have top 10 pick next year while the Cavs watch LeBron walk. I think Boston will be fine with some of their backup guards but Cleveland is now tied to moving Kyrie and I just see no real deal that would be close.

I think Boston could sit and get a solid player next year in the draft. it seems loaded. you can also try and move some smaller assets for a pg of you need to. trade Crowder for a PG maybe. and in 4 years have a core of

Brown
Tatum
2018 nets
2018/19 lakes or kings

hugepatsfan
08-30-2017, 02:41 PM
Cavs to me. I do not think they get anything close to that offer from another team. it would look terrible for the Celtics to have top 10 pick next year while the Cavs watch LeBron walk. I think Boston will be fine with some of their backup guards but Cleveland is now tied to moving Kyrie and I just see no real deal that would be close.

I think Boston could sit and get a solid player next year in the draft. it seems loaded. you can also try and move some smaller assets for a pg of you need to. trade Crowder for a PG maybe. and in 4 years have a core of

Brown
Tatum
2018 nets
2018/19 lakes or kings

I disagree. Without IT at some reasonable approximation of what he was last year by the playoffs or obviously the Kyrie dealing going through I think BOS can kiss away and ECF hopes. It'd be a crushing blow in the short-term.

That's all short-term though. I agree that long-term keeping the BRK pick, Zizic and Crowder would be a fine consolation prize to have moving forward. It feels like they'd let IT walk over extending him but that doesn't affect that we'd still have the BRK pick, Zizic and Crowder long-term.

What makes Kyrie so attractive though is that he still fits in that core. He's only 25. In 4 years he'll still be in his prime with another 3 or 4 years left of top play based on other players' career arcs. And he only costs one of those "core" pieces as opposed to a guy like Jimmy Butler who would have cost 2 and had less prime years left on that timeline.

I think CLE can get good offers still. Probably even better for next season. But that BRK pick has the chance ot land them an all-star that keeps Lebron and maybe makes a dent in the gap between them and GS. And maybe IT takes a while to get back but they'd still have his bird rights and an injury would only suppress his value. I think the BOS offer gives them much greater upside as a team, but they can get a good return.

In the end, I think both teams will be fine without a deal. But the deal got agreed on because it helped each team advance their interests. So we can argue urgency one way or another but in the end they agreed to it because each team thought it helped them. So in the end I think both miss out if it falls through.

mariner4life
08-31-2017, 08:46 AM
To all the people who thought the Cavs had all the leverage.......
You were wrong!
Celtics basically told them to go to hell but were nice enough to let them save face a bit by giving them a token pick.
Cleveland needed this deal more then the celtics.