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valade16
08-08-2017, 05:42 PM
So in honor of Chronz's "most underrated of the 00's" thread, I decided to see in what order people rank these PFs.

That time period was generally considered the "golden age" of PFs in that you had all-timers like Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki and then other all-time greats like old Karl Malone, Pau Gasol and Chris Webber.

But there were so many good PFs after them during the early part of that time period. So my question is, rank these other Power Forwards from that time period:

Rasheed Wallace
Elton Brand
Jermaine O'Neal
Antonio McDyess
Shareef Abdur-Rahim

Scoots
08-08-2017, 05:54 PM
That's a brutal cast of characters to rank.

Sheed
O'Neal
Brand
McDyess
Abdur-Rahim

That's my first rank, but I can easily convinced to change up the order of the bottom 3.

Scoots
08-08-2017, 05:55 PM
For the reference of others as a starting point:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Rasheed+Wallace&player_id1_select=Rasheed+Wallace&player_id1=wallara01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Elton+Brand&player_id2_select=Elton+Brand&player_id2=brandel01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Jermaine+O%27Neal&player_id3_select=Jermaine+O%27Neal&player_id3=onealje01&idx=players&player_id4_hint=Antonio+McDyess&player_id4_select=Antonio+McDyess&player_id4=mcdyean01&idx=players&player_id5_hint=Shareef+Abdur-Rahim&player_id5_select=Shareef+Abdur-Rahim&player_id5=abdursh01&idx=players

europagnpilgrim
08-08-2017, 06:24 PM
Sheed


McDyess
O'Neal
Rahim
Brand

mrblisterdundee
08-08-2017, 07:01 PM
1. Rasheed Wallace
2. Jermaine O'Neal
3. Elton Brand
4. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
5. Antonio McDyess

TrueFan420
08-08-2017, 08:32 PM
Sheed is the clear 1
Jermaine Is the clear 2
Brand is clear 3
Toss up for the last two

IndyRealist
08-08-2017, 09:19 PM
Jermaine O'Neal as a PF is #2, as a C he's #5 easily. Bulking up combined with playing internationally every summer ruined his career.

COOLbeans
08-08-2017, 09:33 PM
Wallace
Oneal
Mcdyess
Abdur Rahim
Brand

FlashBolt
08-08-2017, 09:40 PM
Rasheed Wallace 1
Elton Brand 3
Jermaine O'Neal 2
Antonio McDyess 5
Shareef Abdur-Rahim 4

TrueFan420
08-09-2017, 12:10 AM
Rasheed Wallace 1
Elton Brand 3
Jermaine O'Neal 2
Antonio McDyess 5
Shareef Abdur-Rahim 4

This is basically what I'd say. McDyess was unlucky with the knee injury otherwise I think he could have been higher.

TrueFan420
08-09-2017, 12:22 AM
If Sheed had a better mindset he'd have been in the group being excluded. He could do it all. Defend, post up, spot up, pass, block shots. He was just a mad hatter.

Lakers + Giants
08-09-2017, 05:03 AM
1. Elton Brand
2. Rasheed
3. JO
4. SAR
5. McDyess

YAALREADYKNO
08-09-2017, 01:27 PM
If Sheed had a better mindset he'd have been in the group being excluded. He could do it all. Defend, post up, spot up, pass, block shots. He was just a mad hatter.

My thoughts exactly. Had all the talent to be on the same level as Duncan Dirk KG

Hawkeye15
08-09-2017, 01:53 PM
If Sheed had a better mindset he'd have been in the group being excluded. He could do it all. Defend, post up, spot up, pass, block shots. He was just a mad hatter.

Sheed wasn't mentally there, which does, and should, exclude him from the top tier guys. No credit earned on what could have been.

TrueFan420
08-09-2017, 03:23 PM
Sheed wasn't mentally there, which does, and should, exclude him from the top tier guys. No credit earned on what could have been.

Completely agree. Sheed could have been all time great and never reached it for a very important reason. Just wanted to bring up that fact. As bill romanoski once said...
Game is 10% physical and 90% mental

Heediot
08-09-2017, 03:33 PM
AS a main option and to start a team Jermaine O'neal.

AS a complementary guy like Dray, I'd take Sheed.

Overall

Sheed
JO
Brand
McDyess
Reef

if McDyess never had knee issues he may have posed a challenge for the top spot.

Heediot
08-09-2017, 03:35 PM
Jermaine O'Neal as a PF is #2, as a C he's #5 easily. Bulking up combined with playing internationally every summer ruined his career.

I was thinking the same. Jermaine was 80 percent a 5.

rhino17
08-09-2017, 03:41 PM
Rasheed and Jermaine O'Neal were a lot better than the other 3

THE_LOGO
08-09-2017, 04:21 PM
1. Elton Brand
2. Rasheed
3. JO
4. SAR
5. McDyess

Agreed for the most part. I'd flip flop 3 and 4. By any chance, did you rank them by who you would've wanted to be on the Lakers? That's how I came up with my rankings.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2017, 04:24 PM
Brand being underrated here, not his fault his team was such a damn mess.

ewing
08-09-2017, 04:33 PM
O'Neil is the clear guy IMO

ewing
08-09-2017, 04:34 PM
Brand being underrated here, not his fault his team was such a damn mess.

he had alligator arms though

JAZZNC
08-09-2017, 09:01 PM
Yeah, Sheed should have been the best PF ever but mentally he just didn't have it to be that guy.

1.Sheed
2.JO
3.Brand
4.McDyess
5.Shareef

GREATNESS ONE
08-09-2017, 09:28 PM
1. Elton Brand
2. Rasheed
3. JO
4. SAR
5. McDyess

Lolol :laugh2: I hate Brand now!

mightybosstone
08-09-2017, 10:23 PM
It's insane how underrated Brand is in this conversation. I'd easily put him at No. 1. Peak Brand crushes everyone else on the list. He had six seasons of at least 20/9 with advanced numbers that are just totally superior. And later in his career, he carved out a role as one of the best defensive role players in the league.

Sheed's my No. 2 as arguably the most complete overall player on the list, but he couldn't touch peak Brand in terms of overall dominance. O'Neal was an excellent defensive player, but never had the kind of offensive efficiency that warranted legitimate superstardom. McDyess' peak was just way too short to be in the same conversation with those three guys, and Abdur-Rahim kind of just epitomizes "great stats, bad team" guy. They're in some order of 4 and 5, but I definitely rank them a tier below the other three guys in the conversation.

Hawkeye15
08-10-2017, 10:02 AM
It's insane how underrated Brand is in this conversation. I'd easily put him at No. 1. Peak Brand crushes everyone else on the list. He had six seasons of at least 20/9 with advanced numbers that are just totally superior. And later in his career, he carved out a role as one of the best defensive role players in the league.

Sheed's my No. 2 as arguably the most complete overall player on the list, but he couldn't touch peak Brand in terms of overall dominance. O'Neal was an excellent defensive player, but never had the kind of offensive efficiency that warranted legitimate superstardom. McDyess' peak was just way too short to be in the same conversation with those three guys, and Abdur-Rahim kind of just epitomizes "great stats, bad team" guy. They're in some order of 4 and 5, but I definitely rank them a tier below the other three guys in the conversation.

exactly (the take on Brand). I can't believe people forget how good he really was.

I have bias to McDyess (used to love him for some reason), but the next guy after Brand is a toss up between Sheed, and Jermaine.

Shareef was basically Rudy Gay

Scoots
08-10-2017, 10:24 AM
It's interesting that Brand was a stud but Abdur-Rahim was a good stats-bad team guy.

Brand was incredible for his size, and maybe it was unlucky that he was on bad teams (Clippers curse) ... but in his prime he was one of the top paid players on his teams and he was choosing where he was playing ... and good stats, bad teams.

I know Brand was efficient and a decent defender and all that ... but in his prime he played in 12 total playoff games and in all-time comparisons winning matters.

ewing
08-10-2017, 10:26 AM
It's interesting that Brand was a stud but Abdur-Rahim was a good stats-bad team guy.

Brand was incredible for his size, and maybe it was unlucky that he was on bad teams (Clippers curse) ... but in his prime he was one of the top paid players on his teams and he was choosing where he was playing ... and good stats, bad teams.

I know Brand was efficient and a decent defender and all that ... but in his prime he played in 12 total playoff games and in all-time comparisons winning matters.

He was a good player but a total lane clogger. He didn't play in transition well and was a ball stopper. good player but i think some of the guys that didn't actually see him play are overrating his impact based on stats. Peak vs peak I think O'Neil was clearly a better player.

Hawkeye15
08-10-2017, 10:30 AM
It's interesting that Brand was a stud but Abdur-Rahim was a good stats-bad team guy.

Brand was incredible for his size, and maybe it was unlucky that he was on bad teams (Clippers curse) ... but in his prime he was one of the top paid players on his teams and he was choosing where he was playing ... and good stats, bad teams.

I know Brand was efficient and a decent defender and all that ... but in his prime he played in 12 total playoff games and in all-time comparisons winning matters.

go look at his rosters dude. Seriously. Shareef didn't even pretend to involve teammates or guard anyone.

COOLbeans
08-10-2017, 10:54 AM
Brand was overrated imo. Never effective, often injured. And in the time that he played a so called dominant big man shouldve had more success on his teams despite not having the most ideal supporting cast. Not to mention, other guys didnt flock to play with him. Kind of a reprieve on his reputation around the league. He was talented, but wasnt very good.

mightybosstone
08-10-2017, 11:56 AM
It's interesting that Brand was a stud but Abdur-Rahim was a good stats-bad team guy.

Brand was incredible for his size, and maybe it was unlucky that he was on bad teams (Clippers curse) ... but in his prime he was one of the top paid players on his teams and he was choosing where he was playing ... and good stats, bad teams.

I know Brand was efficient and a decent defender and all that ... but in his prime he played in 12 total playoff games and in all-time comparisons winning matters.

Brand actually had a standout playoff moment with that 2006 Clippers team. That dude put up some insane numbers and came within one game of the WCF despite an ancient Sam Cassell and Corey freaking' Maggette as its second and third best players. Abdur-Rahim doesn't have anything close to that.

Edit: Also, when you really look at Abdur-Rahim's numbers compared with Brand's numbers, they're not close. Brand had six seasons with at least nine WS. Abdur-Rahim had one. Brand topped 4+ BPM six times in his career, and Abdur-Rahim never topped 2.5. Brand had six straight seasons of a 4+ VORP, which Abdur-Rahim never accomplished.

Brand was just a far more efficient player who was exponentially better on defense than Abdur-Rahim.

Also, I don't think winning alone should be the barometer by which we judge guys. Sheed may be the best all-around player on this list with the best postseason resume, but he was never really the No. 1 guy on a team and never had that offensive responsibility. O'Neal was a No. 1 guy in Indiana, but his postseason resume isn't exactly something worth writing home about, and his offensive inefficiency is a pretty big issue to me.

FlashBolt
08-10-2017, 06:14 PM
Brand had insane talent and was a smart player. But he never led his team to anything. Even though the West was tough as nails, you would think he'd be able to get his team more than 25+ wins. I felt Rasheed was the best because he was one of the first big men shooting from three (relatively good for his size/era). Jermaine was on stacked teams but he was also more impactful than Brand, IMO.

jphysics
08-10-2017, 07:31 PM
1. Elton Brand
2. Rasheed
3. JO
4. SAR
5. McDyess

I agree, though I'd swap 4 and 5.

To be fair it depends on how you value longevity. Wallace was productive for the longest period of time, but Elton Brand 2005-2006 was the best single season from any of these players.

Jermaine shot a crappy fg%. It's between Brand and Wallace. I'd take Brand.

Scoots
08-11-2017, 12:53 AM
Brand actually had a standout playoff moment with that 2006 Clippers team. That dude put up some insane numbers and came within one game of the WCF despite an ancient Sam Cassell and Corey freaking' Maggette as its second and third best players. Abdur-Rahim doesn't have anything close to that.

Edit: Also, when you really look at Abdur-Rahim's numbers compared with Brand's numbers, they're not close. Brand had six seasons with at least nine WS. Abdur-Rahim had one. Brand topped 4+ BPM six times in his career, and Abdur-Rahim never topped 2.5. Brand had six straight seasons of a 4+ VORP, which Abdur-Rahim never accomplished.

Brand was just a far more efficient player who was exponentially better on defense than Abdur-Rahim.

Also, I don't think winning alone should be the barometer by which we judge guys. Sheed may be the best all-around player on this list with the best postseason resume, but he was never really the No. 1 guy on a team and never had that offensive responsibility. O'Neal was a No. 1 guy in Indiana, but his postseason resume isn't exactly something worth writing home about, and his offensive inefficiency is a pretty big issue to me.

I wasn't comparing Shareef to Elton, just noting that for Shareef the appellation of "good stats, bad teams" is applied and that the same can be said of Brand.

Brand was a tremendous player, and was often the best player on his team ... but he played in a time of free agency and changed teams 6 times ... he was choosing where he was going so at some point you have to lay the losing at his feet just like with Shareef.

That said, after Sheed the decisions were not easy.

mightybosstone
08-11-2017, 04:38 PM
I wasn't comparing Shareef to Elton, just noting that for Shareef the appellation of "good stats, bad teams" is applied and that the same can be said of Brand.

Brand was a tremendous player, and was often the best player on his team ... but he played in a time of free agency and changed teams 6 times ... he was choosing where he was going so at some point you have to lay the losing at his feet just like with Shareef.

That said, after Sheed the decisions were not easy.

If I'm building a team to win a championship and I have a choice between Elton Brand and Rasheed Wallace, I'm taking Brand. The guy was a better basketball player. Yes, Sheed won more titles. That doesn't mean he was the better NBA player.

Also, Sheed played in the same era as Brand and played for five different teams in his career.

ewing
08-11-2017, 09:41 PM
If I'm building a team to win a championship and I have a choice between Elton Brand and Rasheed Wallace, I'm taking Brand. The guy was a better basketball player. Yes, Sheed won more titles. That doesn't mean he was the better NBA player.

Also, Sheed played in the same era as Brand and played for five different teams in his career.

I am partial to Duke guys and I love Brand ability to seal and finish. I just don't think he was an easy guy to build around. Heck of a player though. you guys are winning me over a little

Chronz
08-15-2017, 02:08 PM
I know Im abit biased here but only alittle because Brand became persona non grata for most Clipper fans after how he betrayed the team. I cant help but feel you guys are blaming Brand alil too much for his lack of post season play. This was an era where a guy like KG could go from missing the playoffs to winning the chip depending on his cast from one year to the next. In fact, both KG and Brand had their most success in the West when both had Sam Cassell. KG didn't get much out of Marko Jaric but Sam got the most out of both KG and Brand.

Its too tough to rank these guys, great thread for that reason. Without looking into it, I would prolly go Jermaine (cuz I truly believe he was that dominant defensively for awhile there) and had a decent, albeit inefficient offensive game. Shareef is easily the worst of the bunch. Horrendous defender, mediocre stats by comparison, didn't command doubles, provided less on the glass than most, never won **** and he either declined by the time he finally had the support (in Sac) OR he never had it in him.

Sheed is the big question mark. The type of role player who could raise his game at the highest of moments but also shied away from the responsibility when forced into the #1 role. His value comes in his glueness factor. I dont think Detroit wins that title with any of the guys above outside of Jermaine.

Vinsanity115
08-26-2017, 11:48 AM
1. Jermaine (defense)
2. Rasheed
Gap
3. Brand
4. McDyess
5. Shareef

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Vinsanity115
08-26-2017, 11:49 AM
I also thought if Jermaine as a center.

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allen45
08-29-2017, 03:27 AM
I also thought if Jermaine as a center.

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Jermaine could be 4th or 5th as center.

PowerHouse
08-29-2017, 08:55 AM
he had alligator arms though

:confused:

Im prolly responding to a joke but Brand had arms like a friggin sloth.

How else was he such a shot-blocking beast at only 6'7?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2017, 09:40 AM
I am partial to Duke guys and I love Brand ability to seal and finish. I just don't think he was an easy guy to build around. Heck of a player though. you guys are winning me over a little

and I think most Duke guys suck in the NBA. Or at least don't play up to their college level of dominance. Obvious exceptions, but for the most part, Coach K's guys don't translate as well as many other coaches who get those 5 star recruits.

Heediot
08-29-2017, 11:18 AM
and I think most Duke guys suck in the NBA. Or at least don't play up to their college level of dominance. Obvious exceptions, but for the most part, Coach K's guys don't translate as well as many other coaches who get those 5 star recruits.

UCLA and Kentucky seem to have the pro's that translate or do better then projected.

dee85
08-29-2017, 09:00 PM
Rasheed
Elton
Jermaine
Shareef
McDyess

allen45
08-30-2017, 03:42 AM
Rasheed
Elton
Jermaine
Shareef
McDyess

Good choices on your top 3.