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KnicksorBust
07-27-2017, 10:16 PM
Who ya got?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-27-2017, 10:25 PM
Well we don't even know if Kyrie's entered his prime yet...

KnicksorBust
07-27-2017, 10:56 PM
Well we don't even know if Kyrie's entered his prime yet...

Dont dodge the question Bais

ewing
07-27-2017, 11:21 PM
Well we don't even know if Kyrie's entered his prime yet...

Agreed. I dont think he is. Melo at his best is better then KI right now


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LaVar Ball
07-28-2017, 01:31 AM
Kyrie hasn't even hit his prime and is already better than Melo ever was. Kyrie is a winner, a more explosive scorer and the better handles. And I would say that Kyrie is a better (underrated) defender at his position than Melo is at his position. Melo doesn't even try on defense.

More-Than-Most
07-28-2017, 02:21 AM
Melo was a better Defender when he actually tried than Kyrie has ever been.. Melo has been a much better offensive player as well. This isnt a smart thread because its melo without a 2nd thought and kyrie is just entering a prime.

europagnpilgrim
07-28-2017, 04:40 AM
Well when Melo entered the league in a much tougher conference he had his team in the playoffs while Irving couldn't get that accomplished prior to Lebron returning

if I had to draft a player first it would be Melo in a landslide over Kryie

More-Than-Most
07-28-2017, 05:03 AM
Well when Melo entered the league in a much tougher conference he had his team in the playoffs while Irving couldn't get that accomplished prior to Lebron returning

if I had to draft a player first it would be Melo in a landslide over Kryie

Its the same reason why a player like Kat cant drive the wolves to the playoffs... or why i wouldnt have drafted ball top 3 and why i would want no parts of an Isiah Thomas... Certain players need a deep *** team around them because of how bad they are defensively... Id rather have a lesser offensive player if he could play defense... Kyrie is a damn good player but there is a reason why some of us had him outside of the top 15 and got trolled for it...Kat now has the team around him and the wolves can get by quite easily with a lack of his defense.

mightybosstone
07-28-2017, 05:07 AM
This last season from Kyrie rivals pretty much most of Melo's best years, but it's ultimately one year of which Melo has had many.

They play different positions and are very different players, but Kyrie has a pretty long way to go to be in the same conversation historically as Melo, who was an all-time great scorer at his peak. Kyrie may have a ring as a No. 2, but he's yet to prove he can lead a team to a decent record as a No. 1, which Melo has had to prove most of his career.

More-Than-Most
07-28-2017, 06:01 AM
This last season from Kyrie rivals pretty much most of Melo's best years, but it's ultimately one year of which Melo has had many many.

They play different positions and are very different players, but Kyrie has a pretty long way to go to be in the same conversation historically as Melo, who was an all-time great scorer at his peak. Kyrie may have a ring as a No. 2, but he's yet to prove he can lead a team to a decent record as a No. 1, which Melo has had to prove most of his career.

Except Melo never had a lebron... Melo always was what the other team tried to stop... I hate melo... Kyrie best year was this past year no doubt but Melo played defense.. Kyrie like me and hawk and several others stated would fall right back down to earth on that end after the finals.

Leftcoast_yg
07-28-2017, 06:18 AM
Melo was a better Defender when he actually tried than Kyrie has ever been.. Melo has been a much better offensive player as well. This isnt a smart thread because its melo without a 2nd thought and kyrie is just entering a prime.

Denver Melo...I echo this. Him and Kobe had some battles. Can't say the same for Kyrie vs ___ because of his lack of defensive play.

bagwell368
07-28-2017, 06:35 AM
Kyrie is a much better passer, and a far greater playoff performer. We will have to see if Kyrie ends up like Melo has been the last few years - an overpaid lump with cooties nobody wants.

ball4reel
07-28-2017, 07:21 AM
Kyrie is a much better passer, and a far greater playoff performer. We will have to see if Kyrie ends up like Melo has been the last few years - an overpaid lump with cooties nobody wants.

Seems like the Cavs And Rockets want him, And what is a lump with Cooties?

KnicksorBust
07-28-2017, 08:36 AM
Denver Melo...I echo this. Him and Kobe had some battles. Can't say the same for Kyrie vs ___ because of his lack of defensive play.

Was Denver Melo the best Melo? When he played PF for the Knicks I thought he was phenomenal. Led the league in points per game.

KnicksorBust
07-28-2017, 08:43 AM
Offensively isn't what Kyrie does more valuable these days? He can score at an efficient level AND create for teammates in pick and roll. Melo is nowhere near the ball handler that Kyrie is and I don't see what skill Melo brings to the table that makes up for that loss in play-making. Off-ball Kyrie is a better pure shooter too.

WaDe03
07-28-2017, 09:30 AM
Easily Melo, might change when Kyrie actually hits his prime.

KnicksorBust
07-28-2017, 12:34 PM
Easily Melo. :laugh: What does Melo do easily better than Kyrie?

Kyrie is just as good at scoring and a far better play-maker for his teammates.

WaDe03
07-28-2017, 12:37 PM
Easily Melo. :laugh: What does Melo do easily better than Kyrie?

Kyrie is just as good at scoring and a far better play-maker for his teammates.

Just as good at scoring based on what? His career high is Melos career average. Kyrie playmaking isn't that good. Melo has done more as the lead man on a team than I ever saw Kyrie do, maybe Kyrie will have his own team again soon.

Scoots
07-28-2017, 01:55 PM
It is not close. Prime Melo over Irving.

Prime Melo went for a LONG time, just age for age Melo is better. Irving's one saving grace is that he's not yet in his prime so he still has a chance to be better.

People have forgotten how good Melo was at his best.

Compare them at 22 years old:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&y1=2007&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&y2=2015

Compare them at 24 years old (one of Melo's "down" seasons):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&y1=2009&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&y2=2017

But look what Melo was still doing 5 years later compared to Kyrie's peak year:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&y1=2014&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&y2=2017

KnicksorBust
07-28-2017, 03:09 PM
I should have used the word peak. The debate is distorted. Anyone who thinks I am arguing careers or 3-4 year windows is missing my goal.

Kyrie's talent right now vs Melo's at his best

europagnpilgrim
07-28-2017, 04:13 PM
Easily Melo, might change when Kyrie actually hits his prime.

What do you mean when he hits his prime? he was the same exact player at Duke who could fill it up but was injured for most of his only season there, then he gets to the nba and deals with injuries but really didn't impact the w-l column but showed what he was capable of, then Lebron returns and Irving has his best team success while still doing what he did from day 1 and when Lebron sits they barely win games which is pretty much what happened in Irving first 2-3 yrs in the league

you guys on here and abroad use the term prime like it means he will transform into a whole different entire player or something, dude has won all star mvp and has been on Olympic teams, being prime to me means being young and showcasing your natural ability/game at whatever you are capable of doing, Irving is not going to get no better than what he has already showed you for the years he has been in the league, he plays the same way/style with or without Lebron but with Lebron he obviously has a chance to reach Finals each year as to where he couldn't even sniff a 8th seed without him, prime has nothing to do with that at all, his game is his game which is a guy who can get buckets inside out as very few can do with that type of balance

its who he was at Duke and I am sure prior, not because of a prime

Scoots
07-28-2017, 04:18 PM
I should have used the word peak. The debate is distorted. Anyone who thinks I am arguing careers or 3-4 year windows is missing my goal.

Kyrie's talent right now vs Melo's at his best

Peak Melo to current Kyrie is still Melo.

mrblisterdundee
07-28-2017, 06:10 PM
It's unfair to do any comparison in which one player has LeBron and the other doesn't. Your efficiency is bound to go up playing next to a top-two all-time player. Carmelo's peak was at 28 in New York, and he was slightly better than Kyrie was last year. But that's without LeBron, so I don't know what would happen to his scoring, rebounding, etc. next to the King. Kyrie's usage and scoring actually jumped with all those open looks, so maybe Carmelo gets even better.

cheetos185
07-28-2017, 07:02 PM
Which one is a more scary duo prime Melo or Kyrie with current LeBron?

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Chronz
07-28-2017, 07:08 PM
What do you mean when he hits his prime? he was the same exact player at Duke who could fill it up but was injured for most of his only season there, then he gets to the nba and deals with injuries but really didn't impact the w-l column but showed what he was capable of, then Lebron returns and Irving has his best team success while still doing what he did from day 1 and when Lebron sits they barely win games which is pretty much what happened in Irving first 2-3 yrs in the league

you guys on here and abroad use the term prime like it means he will transform into a whole different entire player or something, dude has won all star mvp and has been on Olympic teams, being prime to me means being young and showcasing your natural ability/game at whatever you are capable of doing, Irving is not going to get no better than what he has already showed you for the years he has been in the league, he plays the same way/style with or without Lebron but with Lebron he obviously has a chance to reach Finals each year as to where he couldn't even sniff a 8th seed without him, prime has nothing to do with that at all, his game is his game which is a guy who can get buckets inside out as very few can do with that type of balance

its who he was at Duke and I am sure prior, not because of a prime
Nobody, not even the players themselves subscribe to your theories

Jamiecballer
07-28-2017, 11:19 PM
They both give you pretty much the same thing. Pretty even imo

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JordansBulls
07-28-2017, 11:22 PM
Kyrie for sure. Hit the game winner in the finals creating his own shot with the league mvp player guarding him.

JasonJohnHorn
07-29-2017, 10:40 AM
The best chance either of them has to get out fo the first round is by playing each other. Then one of them will get through for sure!

If we are talking one-on-one, Melo wins. Neither is a terribly good defender, but Melo has a huge size advantage and was pretty quick back then too, even if not as quick as Kyrie.


If we are talking about leading a team... I'm going with Melo, though neither is in my top ten for first options among current players in their prime (likely not even top 25).

Melo led the Nuggets to the playoffs every year and stayed healthy. In reality, my 'prime' Kyrie is just going to post some nice personal stats and then get injured before the playoffs, and the team will more than likely end up in the lottery or knocked out of the playoffs in the first round.

That's the reality. Neither is going to help you get much done on their own.

eDush
07-29-2017, 10:51 AM
Kyrie for sure. Hit the game winner in the finals creating his own shot with the league mvp player guarding him.Kyrie is more clutch for sure :nod:

mightybosstone
07-29-2017, 12:23 PM
I should have used the word peak. The debate is distorted. Anyone who thinks I am arguing careers or 3-4 year windows is missing my goal.

Kyrie's talent right now vs Melo's at his best
This is a fair point. But, which the exception of that short stint with AI, Melo has pretty much always been the sole focus of a defense's attention his entire career, yet he still put up 25+ a game seven times in his career, which is a remarkable feat. Kyrie has the benefit of playing on the same court offensively with probably the second greatest player in the history of the NBA.

If we just take their numbers at face value, I'd agree that Kyrie's season last year was up there with pretty much any of Melo's best years. But the guy is still a No. 2 in my book. I want to see him do this as a No. 1.


Kyrie for sure. Hit the game winner in the finals creating his own shot with the league mvp player guarding him.
But it's pretty easy to be clutch when the defense is keying in on Lebron freaking James and James is carrying your team to the Finals every year. "Clutchness" is overrated, especially in the context of small sample sizes. Let's see Kyrie carry another team without Lebron on it before we start putting him in the same conversation as a Hall of Famer like Melo.

KnicksorBust
07-29-2017, 12:36 PM
The best chance either of them has to get out fo the first round is by playing each other. Then one of them will get through for sure!

If we are talking one-on-one, Melo wins. Neither is a terribly good defender, but Melo has a huge size advantage and was pretty quick back then too, even if not as quick as Kyrie.


If we are talking about leading a team... I'm going with Melo, though neither is in my top ten for first options among current players in their prime (likely not even top 25).

Melo led the Nuggets to the playoffs every year and stayed healthy. In reality, my 'prime' Kyrie is just going to post some nice personal stats and then get injured before the playoffs, and the team will more than likely end up in the lottery or knocked out of the playoffs in the first round.

That's the reality. Neither is going to help you get much done on their own.

But lets add some more context to that "run" in Denver. First we have to recognize the talent Melo had in Denver.

Andre Miller / Veshon Leonard / Nene / Camby core right from the start. Added Kenyon Martin. Added Iverson and Jr Smith. Then flipped Iverson with Finals MVP Chauncey Billups who went unconscious in the playoffs to help take them to WCF.

He always had depth and help on both ends of the floor and he really only "led" them to a ton of 1st round exits. Is that really proof that he has an edge on Kyrie? I don't buy it. Put Kyrie on those teams and put a Chauncey Billups level SF in that lineup and I bet they can win 45 games and lost in the 1st round too.

KnicksorBust
07-29-2017, 12:42 PM
I should have used the word peak. The debate is distorted. Anyone who thinks I am arguing careers or 3-4 year windows is missing my goal.

Kyrie's talent right now vs Melo's at his best
This is a fair point. But, which the exception of that short stint with AI, Melo has pretty much always been the sole focus of a defense's attention his entire career, yet he still put up 25+ a game seven times in his career, which is a remarkable feat. Kyrie has the benefit of playing on the same court offensively with probably the second greatest player in the history of the NBA.

If we just take their numbers at face value, I'd agree that Kyrie's season last year was up there with pretty much any of Melo's best years. But the guy is still a No. 2 in my book. I want to see him do this as a No. 1.


Kyrie for sure. Hit the game winner in the finals creating his own shot with the league mvp player guarding him.
But it's pretty easy to be clutch when the defense is keying in on Lebron freaking James and James is carrying your team to the Finals every year. "Clutchness" is overrated, especially in the context of small sample sizes. Let's see Kyrie carry another team without Lebron on it before we start putting him in the same conversation as a Hall of Famer like Melo.

This argument is fair but it always drives me crazy. You are arguing that Kyrie is a #2 because that is the only role we have seen him succeed. That is just because thats what he had to be on his team. Wouldn't a superstar like Kawhi be victim to the same argument if he was on the same team as Lebron? Yet we know he is more than a #2. Ironically there is no better player to refute this than your own superstar James Harden. He was a 6th man / #3 option in OKC and yet that didn't mean that is all he can be. We are too smart to be narrow minded about player roles by simply looking at current situation. Look at their skills and production.

mightybosstone
07-29-2017, 12:53 PM
This argument is fair but it always drives me crazy. You are arguing that Kyrie is a #2 because that is the only role we have seen him succeed. That is just because thats what he had to be on his team. Wouldn't a superstar like Kawhi be victim to the same argument if he was on the same team as Lebron? Yet we know he is more than a #2. Ironically there is no better player to refute this than your own superstar James Harden. He was a 6th man / #3 option in OKC and yet that didn't mean that is all he can be. We are too smart to be narrow minded about player roles by simply looking at current situation. Look at their skills and production.

I'm not saying the guy is incapable of being a No. 1. Far from it. I think he's more than capable. But when Lebron has missed time and he's had a chance to step up and lead that Cavs team, they have completely cratered, and that admittedly really concerns me.

I just want to see him actually do this as a No. 1 on a winning team before I'm willing to put him in the same conversation as a guy like Melo, who has led teams to the playoffs more often than he hasn't and was six-time All-NBA. Because we've only ever seen Kryie be successful playing Robin to Lebron's Batman.

KnicksorBust
07-29-2017, 01:39 PM
This argument is fair but it always drives me crazy. You are arguing that Kyrie is a #2 because that is the only role we have seen him succeed. That is just because thats what he had to be on his team. Wouldn't a superstar like Kawhi be victim to the same argument if he was on the same team as Lebron? Yet we know he is more than a #2. Ironically there is no better player to refute this than your own superstar James Harden. He was a 6th man / #3 option in OKC and yet that didn't mean that is all he can be. We are too smart to be narrow minded about player roles by simply looking at current situation. Look at their skills and production.

I'm not saying the guy is incapable of being a No. 1. Far from it. I think he's more than capable. But when Lebron has missed time and he's had a chance to step up and lead that Cavs team, they have completely cratered, and that admittedly really concerns me.

I just want to see him actually do this as a No. 1 on a winning team before I'm willing to put him in the same conversation as a guy like Melo, who has led teams to the playoffs more often than he hasn't and was six-time All-NBA. Because we've only ever seen Kryie be successful playing Robin to Lebron's Batman.

Are you impressed with Melo's resume as a #1? Would be interested to hear your reply to my post above the one you quoted. It is about adding context to the teams Melo "led" to "success" as their leading scorer.

mightybosstone
07-29-2017, 02:03 PM
Are you impressed with Melo's resume as a #1? Would be interested to hear your reply to my post above the one you quoted. It is about adding context to the teams Melo "led" to "success" as their leading scorer.
I both am and am not impressed. Yes, I would have preferred that Melo have a ring or at least a Finals appearance or two on his resume. But look at the history of the league and how many great players never ended up with a ring or the many who never even played in the NBA Finals? Does it completely kill George Gervin or Dominique Wilkins' resumes? How about McGrady's or Paul's?

To me, guys like Gervin and Wilkins are perfect comparisons to Melo historically: great scorers who could help their teams win games but never had quite enough talent around them or versatile enough games individually to regularly get further than the first or second round. But there's something to be said for that, and I think it's definitely deserving of our respect. There are a lot of good players who have put up big stats on bad teams in their careers. But it takes a special player to be able to elevate a team to consistent postseason appearances year-in and year-out.

Personally, I've always thought rings have been overrated. They're nice, but they shouldn't make or break a player's career because NBA players are ultimately still dependent on the talent around them.

KnicksorBust
07-29-2017, 06:32 PM
Are you impressed with Melo's resume as a #1? Would be interested to hear your reply to my post above the one you quoted. It is about adding context to the teams Melo "led" to "success" as their leading scorer.
I both am and am not impressed. Yes, I would have preferred that Melo have a ring or at least a Finals appearance or two on his resume. But look at the history of the league and how many great players never ended up with a ring or the many who never even played in the NBA Finals? Does it completely kill George Gervin or Dominique Wilkins' resumes? How about McGrady's or Paul's?

To me, guys like Gervin and Wilkins are perfect comparisons to Melo historically: great scorers who could help their teams win games but never had quite enough talent around them or versatile enough games individually to regularly get further than the first or second round. But there's something to be said for that, and I think it's definitely deserving of our respect. There are a lot of good players who have put up big stats on bad teams in their careers. But it takes a special player to be able to elevate a team to consistent postseason appearances year-in and year-out.

Personally, I've always thought rings have been overrated. They're nice, but they shouldn't make or break a player's career because NBA players are ultimately still dependent on the talent around them.

Respectfully disagree. Again your Rockets are the perfect example. If Hakeem loses to the Knicks in 94 and Magic in 95 is he still a top 10 player of all-time?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-29-2017, 06:39 PM
I think 2012-13 Carmelo is better than Kyrie right now, but Kyrie could easily become the better all-time player.

Kyben36
07-29-2017, 06:53 PM
I would prolly take kyrie by. a hair. I think it's easier to get away with bad d at oh then wing.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-29-2017, 07:23 PM
I would prolly take kyrie by. a hair. I think it's easier to get away with bad d at oh then wing.

Definitely, but in Melo's best season he was kinda good at defense.

mightybosstone
07-29-2017, 07:49 PM
Respectfully disagree. Again your Rockets are the perfect example. If Hakeem loses to the Knicks in 94 and Magic in 95 is he still a top 10 player of all-time?
No. But it's not that he won the ring, it's how he won it. A ring by itself doesn't really matter to me if the performance is so-so. Hakeem was one of the greatest postseason performers in the history of the league. He was one of those rare players that just had an extra gear in the playoffs. And in those two postseason runs to win those two titles, he had some pretty legendary moments and series, completely destroying the other two elite centers of his era in Ewing and Robinson.

But my point isn't that rings shouldn't matter at all. It's that they shouldn't be a primary barometer by which we judge athletes. For example, when I compare the career of Charles Barkley and Kevin Garnett, I kind of toss the ring out the window because KG won it on a super team later in his career, and he kind of had a previous history of not showing up at times in the playoffs whereas Barkley had some solid postseason production despite not ever winning a title. But if I compare Dirk and KG, Dirk's ring has more significance to me than KG's does.

Basically, postseason performance and individual moments should matter more than the actual title. Wade's two titles with Lebron don't matter nearly as much as his first with Shaq, Kobe's first three titles with Shaq don't matter as much as his last two, etc.

KnicksorBust
07-29-2017, 10:54 PM
It is a lot of talk MBT. Rank Barkley, KG, and Dirk.

Scoots
07-30-2017, 12:53 AM
It is a lot of talk MBT. Rank Barkley, KG, and Dirk.

I love Barkley ... but

KG
Barkley
Dirk

KnicksorBust
07-30-2017, 12:11 PM
It is a lot of talk MBT. Rank Barkley, KG, and Dirk.

I love Barkley ... but

KG
Barkley
Dirk

Humor me. Throw Karl Malone in there.

YAALREADYKNO
07-30-2017, 12:15 PM
It is a lot of talk MBT. Rank Barkley, KG, and Dirk.

Dirk
Kg
Barkley

Vee-Rex
07-30-2017, 12:30 PM
I'm not saying the guy is incapable of being a No. 1. Far from it. I think he's more than capable. But when Lebron has missed time and he's had a chance to step up and lead that Cavs team, they have completely cratered, and that admittedly really concerns me.

I just want to see him actually do this as a No. 1 on a winning team before I'm willing to put him in the same conversation as a guy like Melo, who has led teams to the playoffs more often than he hasn't and was six-time All-NBA. Because we've only ever seen Kryie be successful playing Robin to Lebron's Batman.

I dislike this argument. The Cavs are completely built around LeBron's talents/tastes, through and through. Kyrie needs a team built around him (similar to how IT was surrounded by defensive juggernauts) and he'd do muuuuch better than the small stints when he's on the court w/o LeBron.

His role with the Cavs is to simply get buckets. That's it. He has demonstrated he is capable of being able to involve his teammates better than what we normally see.

xxplayerxx23
07-30-2017, 12:30 PM
Melo 2012-2013 >Kyrie now
Melo at 25>Kyrie
It isn't by a lot and Kyrie might be ready to take over his own team(on the right team I can see 27-8) but as of right now it's prime Melo imo

KnicksorBust
07-30-2017, 01:28 PM
It is a lot of talk MBT. Rank Barkley, KG, and Dirk.

Dirk
Kg
Barkley

I think most people will have Barkley last because of rings.

KnicksorBust
07-30-2017, 01:34 PM
Melo 2012-2013 >Kyrie now
Melo at 25>Kyrie
It isn't by a lot and Kyrie might be ready to take over his own team(on the right team I can see 27-8) but as of right now it's prime Melo imo

Why?

prodigy
07-31-2017, 10:26 AM
Who ya got?


read post wrong lol.

Melo. but neither can lead a team.

xxplayerxx23
07-31-2017, 11:11 AM
Why?

He's a better scorer rebounder defender. Kyrie is a better play maker but it's not like he lights the world up in that faset of the game. I don't know man I'd personally take Melo. Kyrie is good tho, Melo is a HOF. Kyrie also can still stay better

JasonJohnHorn
07-31-2017, 11:30 AM
But lets add some more context to that "run" in Denver. First we have to recognize the talent Melo had in Denver.

Andre Miller / Veshon Leonard / Nene / Camby core right from the start. Added Kenyon Martin. Added Iverson and Jr Smith. Then flipped Iverson with Finals MVP Chauncey Billups who went unconscious in the playoffs to help take them to WCF.

He always had depth and help on both ends of the floor and he really only "led" them to a ton of 1st round exits. Is that really proof that he has an edge on Kyrie? I don't buy it. Put Kyrie on those teams and put a Chauncey Billups level SF in that lineup and I bet they can win 45 games and lost in the 1st round too.

That's fair.... but the LBJ-less Cavs (which feature Kyrie, Love, and TT, as well as Smith-who was on that Nuggets team) are a winning percentage that ther 76ers could top: 4-18? I mean... how do you explain that.

https://labs.statmuse.com/stories/0c1a44f4-0e8e-4596-bfc7-47bdcba24773

I'm not saying one is any better than the other. I just don't feel that either can 'be the man' on a championship team. At least not without substantial help.

And first round exits in a competitive west is FAR more impressive than lottery entries in a weak east. Melo did get out of the first round twice. Kyrie had a small sample size pre-LBJ; I don't want to dismiss him outright, especially given how impressive his stats are. But given his record without LBJ and with a talented roster, and the +/- with LBJ off the court... I'm not terribly confident that Kyrie can lead a team, impressive stats or not.


And that's not even mentioning the injury bug that hold him back.

tredigs
07-31-2017, 02:02 PM
It is not close. Prime Melo over Irving.

Prime Melo went for a LONG time, just age for age Melo is better. Irving's one saving grace is that he's not yet in his prime so he still has a chance to be better.

People have forgotten how good Melo was at his best.

Compare them at 22 years old:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&y1=2007&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&y2=2015

Compare them at 24 years old (one of Melo's "down" seasons):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&y1=2009&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&y2=2017

But look what Melo was still doing 5 years later compared to Kyrie's peak year:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&y1=2014&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&y2=2017

The thread is about their best vs best, not a longevity debate. And I'm not sure your age v age links achieved the proper response for the "easily Melo" case. Kyrie comes off better in both in both years statistically. Unless you're just looking at PPG?

mightybosstone
07-31-2017, 02:27 PM
The thread is about their best vs best, not a longevity debate. And I'm not sure your age v age links achieved the proper response for the "easily Melo" case. Kyrie comes off better in both in both years statistically. Unless you're just looking at PPG?

Not really. The thread is "prime," not "peak." And the longevity and consistency of a player's prime are often what make that player's prime so impressive. Kobe is a great example. There are other wings who had arguably stronger peaks, Wade clearly being one of them. But Kobe's prime was so strong and so consistent, that any NBA analyst or fan would almost certainly take his prime over Wade's.

There's something to be said for a guy like Melo, who was really, really good for a decade. That's hard to come by in professional sports.

Scoots
07-31-2017, 02:29 PM
The thread is about their best vs best, not a longevity debate. And I'm not sure your age v age links achieved the proper response for the "easily Melo" case. Kyrie comes off better in both in both years statistically. Unless you're just looking at PPG?

The OP said "prime" not "peak".

And in the year by year comparisons, Melo drew far more fouls and got far more rebounds, and he was doing it as the focus of opposing defenses.

But the "easily" part is that Melo's prime was so incredibly long and we have no idea what Kyrie's is going to be like yet.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2017, 02:29 PM
I think most people will have Barkley last because of rings.

I actually have Barkley ahead of KG, and Dirk. That is my order in fact

Hawkeye15
07-31-2017, 02:30 PM
I want to say Melo over Irving, but Melo never played any huge games, on the biggest stage. Not his fault entirely, but we have no clue if we can trust him in the biggest games, where as Irving went nuts in the finals.

It's not really worth the argument to me, both are perennial all stars who can't be your best player, or anything close to it, if you want to win a ring.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2017, 02:32 PM
Not really. The thread is "prime," not "peak." And the longevity and consistency of a player's prime are often what make that player's prime so impressive. Kobe is a great example. There are other wings who had arguably stronger peaks, Wade clearly being one of them. But Kobe's prime was so strong and so consistent, that any NBA analyst or fan would almost certainly take his prime over Wade's.

There's something to be said for a guy like Melo, who was really, really good for a decade. That's hard to come by in professional sports.

Yeah, Melo was a man when he came into the league, he contributed right away as a very good player. It's not easy to be a top 20 player for a decade, and Melo was. Irving is only 24, and has never shown he can do anything without LeBron there, so it's a bit early to have this debate anyways.

tredigs
07-31-2017, 03:55 PM
The OP said "prime" not "peak".

And in the year by year comparisons, Melo drew far more fouls and got far more rebounds, and he was doing it as the focus of opposing defenses.

But the "easily" part is that Melo's prime was so incredibly long and we have no idea what Kyrie's is going to be like yet.

Right, but he said "Prime Kyrie Vs Prime Melo - Who ya got?". That to me just means who's better, not who had a more sustained prime as it would pertain to some all-time ranking debate. OP clarified that that is what he meant. In both comparisons you gave us Kyrie fared better than Melo in shooting efficiency, assist volume/efficiency, BPM, WS and VORP. Kyrie at 20 (as the opposing teams focus on defense and with the ~30% USG rate while putting up ~23/4/6) also put up a better TS%, WS/48, BPM and VORP than the seasons you listed for Melo.

So yeah, there's definitely nothing open/shut about you saying that Melo was better at the same age given those links lol - and in fact it they show Kyrie as better. The only "clear cut" case for Melo is that his prime was longer (as Kyrie is 25), but again that wasn't really the question.

FlashBolt
07-31-2017, 04:20 PM
This isn't really close at all. The only thing Kyrie is better than at Melo is attacking the rim and handles. Melo has a more complete offensive scoring ability because of his size.

Melo is simply a better overall player. Kyrie doesn't play defense whatsoever and we all saw what happened when LeBron was benched/inactive... leads turn to ashes and deficits continue plunging. Kyrie was lucky as hell LeBron came back. Let's be honest, Kyrie can't lead a team and wouldn't have been in the playoffs even now. His ME-ME-ME mentality is terrible and the fact he thinks he has a Kobe mentality is ridiculous. Kobe was many things - including ballhog, but he was also an elite defender, top playmaker, and he had a better understanding of the game than Kyrie ever will.

I just gotta add, a prime Melo+LeBron is far more enticing than a prime Kyrie (which doesn't change anything.. Kyrie at his prime will STILL be the same player he was his rookie season). Like I said.. Kyrie was lucky as hell LeBron came back. He would have been injured years ago and never had sniffed a championship.

tredigs
07-31-2017, 04:59 PM
That's fair.... but the LBJ-less Cavs (which feature Kyrie, Love, and TT, as well as Smith-who was on that Nuggets team) are a winning percentage that ther 76ers could top: 4-18? I mean... how do you explain that.

https://labs.statmuse.com/stories/0c1a44f4-0e8e-4596-bfc7-47bdcba24773


It's actually pretty easy to explain. First of all, Lebron is going to bring as much or more value to a team than anyone in the league, and with the extremely Lebron-centric system they run, when he is out, it throws the entire team out of whack with the roles they have been asked (forced?) to play alongside him. Secondly, many of these games were played without Kyrie and/or K Love. This is not a record of "Lebron out, everybody else in". Next, consider how many of these were on the 2nd leg of road b2b's (hint: often).


Doing a quick look at the 7 games he did not play last season, exactly zero of them were with K Love + Kyrie playing and it not being the 2nd leg of a road b2b. That = recipe for a loss.

FlashBolt
07-31-2017, 05:09 PM
Both players never making it to the playoffs with underwhelming team record is more than enough proof that these two players aren't capable of leading a team. Kyrie has been given many opportunities to carry a team and it never ends well collectively. He gets his numbers but he's not a PG - which is hilarious considering he wants the ball IN HIS HANDS but doesn't generate enough impact for it to be a realistic scenario. Kevin Love has seen his role become more of a floor spacer and rebounder type of player and that's not by design - the guy isn't good enough to contribute in the other areas for a system to revolve otherwise. If he's dominating the paint and destroying guys defensively, he wouldn't be forced to stand by the three point line. As good as both of these players are individually, I have no sensed an ounce of team accomplishment from them by their own doing. They were just two very good players generating numbers on a poorly led team.

The reality of the situation is, Irving is a great pairing with LeBron but he thinks he's better than he really is. That's fine. Love is a terrible pairing in that he's not capable of dominating offensively and doesn't contribute much defensively. These guys WANT the ball and a high USG% but it almost never equates to WINNING basketball games - which is why this team is so LeBron-centric. There's no other way for them to have a higher % of winning than when LeBron has the ball. And that's his fault for choosing two players who were captains of a sinking boat before he got there.

Scoots
07-31-2017, 05:52 PM
Right, but he said "Prime Kyrie Vs Prime Melo - Who ya got?". That to me just means who's better, not who had a more sustained prime as it would pertain to some all-time ranking debate. OP clarified that that is what he meant. In both comparisons you gave us Kyrie fared better than Melo in shooting efficiency, assist volume/efficiency, BPM, WS and VORP. Kyrie at 20 (as the opposing teams focus on defense and with the ~30% USG rate while putting up ~23/4/6) also put up a better TS%, WS/48, BPM and VORP than the seasons you listed for Melo.

So yeah, there's definitely nothing open/shut about you saying that Melo was better at the same age given those links lol - and in fact it they show Kyrie as better. The only "clear cut" case for Melo is that his prime was longer (as Kyrie is 25), but again that wasn't really the question.

I posted that when the prime/peak change hadn't happened yet.

FlashBolt
07-31-2017, 05:57 PM
It doesn't matter what Kyrie's prime/peak is because you're getting the same player. Would scoring five more points on better efficiency change the type of player Kyrie is? Scorers are just scorers. Any improvements made to their game will be minimal unless it involves an improvement on all parts of the game.

tredigs
07-31-2017, 06:01 PM
I posted that when the prime/peak change hadn't happened yet.

You still did not highlight Melo as better with those links is the point, despite writing as much.

FlashBolt
07-31-2017, 06:01 PM
Most would agree Melo and Kyrie have a similar style of basketball. Let's look back at Melo's career. Would anyone say his game has changed at all compared to when he was 24-25? He's still the very same player. Peak or prime is irrelevant when they are just elite scorers.

kdspurman
07-31-2017, 09:22 PM
Most would agree Melo and Kyrie have a similar style of basketball. Let's look back at Melo's career. Would anyone say his game has changed at all compared to when he was 24-25? He's still the very same player. Peak or prime is irrelevant when they are just elite scorers.

I think Melo has certainly made improvements defensively and as a rebounder as he's gotten older.

FlashBolt
07-31-2017, 09:46 PM
I think Melo has certainly made improvements defensively and as a rebounder as he's gotten older.

Defensively and as a passer, he definitely improved. As a rebounder, he's right in line with his PER36 rebounding in his younger years. It's really minimal, though. We're not seeing huge changes to where we can say "Melo was the best this year because of X and Y." It's more like, Melo has improved but he's still the same player. A very good scorer who as a result of that, was never able to take his team deep or will ever be. We've seen this with many players, too. How many pure scorers have led a team as a first option and won? VERY VERY few. Look at Allen Iverson. Guys like that just don't win. Even with Jordan in his later years, he just became a scorer but still, very capable leader and defender. And I'm afraid we're seeing that with Irving. A very great scorer suitable as a 2nd/3rd option role but will never have the overall basketball capacity/intellect to become a sufficient 1st option. He may improve and his prime/peak or whatever terminology we want to throw out there will be later on his career but I'm not expecting much. He's had more than enough years to become a passer, defender, and leader. I'm not willing to bet he becomes much better in any of those areas.