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Scoots
07-20-2017, 08:47 PM
Let's be real for a minute.

Andrew Bogut sets illegal screens, but if he was on your team getting your shooters wide open you'd appreciate it.

KD chose to go to a team that was already the best team in the NBA, but if if was your team that was that good you'd appreciate it.

LeBron learned that letting the Owner/GM run the team doesn't result in good enough teams for him to win so he left to go somewhere he could ... twice ... but if he joined your team and tore up the roster to build a winner you'd appreciate it.

Lonzo Ball has a REALLY REALLY REALLY annoying father, but if he comes CLOSE to meeting the hype and he was on your team, you'd appreciate it.

Draymond Green is an arrogant ***, but if he was killing it for your team you'd appreciate it.

meanwhile ...

There are a lot of players who are paid BIG money to put up numbers and not win ... and unlike the guys above, people love them.

So ... who is hated but you'd love to have them, and who is loved that you don't want on your team?

WaDe03
07-20-2017, 09:13 PM
Prime Noah, Draymond, Steph, KD, prime Barea when he locked up LeBron, Harden, IT, Cousins, prime Rondo, Pierce, KG, Rose....

Scoots
07-20-2017, 09:22 PM
Prime Noah, Draymond, Steph, KD, prime Barea when he locked up LeBron, Harden, IT, Cousins, prime Rondo, Pierce, KG, Rose....

Noah was really good ... people forget because he's been SO bad. Supposedly he's getting healthy again for the first time in years. I'll believe it when I see it.

WaDe03
07-20-2017, 09:30 PM
Noah was really good ... people forget because he's been SO bad. Supposedly he's getting healthy again for the first time in years. I'll believe it when I see it.

Yea I think Noah is done, definitely won't live up to his contract.

tredigs
07-20-2017, 10:57 PM
Let's be real for a minute.

Andrew Bogut sets illegal screens, but if he was on your team getting your shooters wide open you'd appreciate it.

KD chose to go to a team that was already the best team in the NBA, but if if was your team that was that good you'd appreciate it.

LeBron learned that letting the Owner/GM run the team doesn't result in good enough teams for him to win so he left to go somewhere he could ... twice ... but if he joined your team and tore up the roster to build a winner you'd appreciate it.

Lonzo Ball has a REALLY REALLY REALLY annoying father, but if he comes CLOSE to meeting the hype and he was on your team, you'd appreciate it.

Draymond Green is an arrogant ***, but if he was killing it for your team you'd appreciate it.

meanwhile ...

There are a lot of players who are paid BIG money to put up numbers and not win ... and unlike the guys above, people love them.

So ... who is hated but you'd love to have them, and who is loved that you don't want on your team?

The "bad" traits of all players are put on blast when a team actually wins. In 2013 Andrew Bogut had never set an illegal screen in his life as far as the internet/casual fan crowd is concerned. That's just how it is. As a Warrior fan I'm sure you understand that our teams could have been hated on for any number of reasons during the We Believe run. They were extremely cocky, fairly dirty on occasion, and just in every teams face. But, they were never a threat to win it all. Hence: beloved by almost everyone. But if they were a contender? Oh man, would they have been scrutinized and hated.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown etc. Enjoy the salt. I'm loving the comedic value at this point personally.

ChiSox219
07-20-2017, 11:52 PM
I stopped being a loyal fan of teams and I just follow the people I find interesting, players, coaches, executives. This change was inspired by the Bulls miserable 2012 offseason and everything that followed with the final nail in the coffin being Thibs unwarranted firing. I wrote somewhere on here that the Bulls would not be getting my money anymore as I realized it makes no sense to be loyal to a business that isnt employing me.

Instead I've spent that money to take trips to see other teams in other cities, like the 2015 Warriors in Milwaukee, the Thibs coached Twolves vs the Rose led Knicks in NY, and Anthony Davis in New Orleans.

Very happy with my decision

Chronz
07-21-2017, 12:54 PM
Stopped reading at kd joining my team. I would be mocking the **** out of him regardless. The only benefit is that I would boo him in person

Oakmont_4
07-21-2017, 01:05 PM
I generally agree. The only time I would not support is (let me preface that it would never happen) LeBron joining my Celtics. I've spent my entire adult life rooting against him. I can't stand him, he's a complete tool. He'll go down as one of the GOAT and I respect that fact...But I would never condone him coming to Boston and I would never root for him if he did. I just can't.

No different than if Peyton Manning went to the Patriots or Alex Rodriguez to the Red Sox or Crosby to the Bruins. Some players I just can't root for under any circumstances.

Vee-Rex
07-21-2017, 02:51 PM
I think it's often difficult to discern what 'hate' means over the internet.

For example - from a basketball standpoint, I 'hate' Draymond Green. The sole reason is because of his comments towards the Cavs and the fans.

Other than that, he's cool with me. Seems to be the type of dude that I'd get along with.

I question KD's competitive nature and think it's fair that some people think he's a *****, but other than that it doesn't bother me.

LeBron annoys me with his antics, and in a weird way I'll be relieved once he retires and we can move past him. Despite that, I can't help but appreciate his talent and dedication to bringing a championship to Cleveland. Not only that, but he has done a lot of things for Cleveland and I feel like I understand him.

LaVar Ball can be annoying but I got an uncle like him, so I have no bad feelings towards him.

Bogut's illegal screens are so blatantly horrible and utterly game-breaking when he's playing for the Warriors, but it wouldn't seem bad when he's playing for MY team and EVERYONE ELSE does it too. :laugh2:

That's just the mentality most fans will have with players regarding refereeing, so I definitely agree with you there Scoots.

tredigs
07-21-2017, 03:08 PM
Stopped reading at kd joining my team. I would be mocking the **** out of him regardless. The only benefit is that I would boo him in person

The more times you say this does not make it any less bull ****. But if you are indeed sincere (and make no mistake you have no basis for comparison so you don't know how you would react) and think you would be in the Clip stands booing him, you'd be the only one.

tucksoe
07-21-2017, 03:34 PM
I stopped being a loyal fan of teams and I just follow the people I find interesting, players, coaches, executives. This change was inspired by the Bulls miserable 2012 offseason and everything that followed with the final nail in the coffin being Thibs unwarranted firing. I wrote somewhere on here that the Bulls would not be getting my money anymore as I realized it makes no sense to be loyal to a business that isnt employing me.

Instead I've spent that money to take trips to see other teams in other cities, like the 2015 Warriors in Milwaukee, the Thibs coached Twolves vs the Rose led Knicks in NY, and Anthony Davis in New Orleans.

Very happy with my decision
You should hang out with eDush

One Nut Kruk
07-21-2017, 05:25 PM
The more times you say this does not make it any less bull ****. But if you are indeed sincere (and make no mistake you have no basis for comparison so you don't know how you would react) and think you would be in the Clip stands booing him, you'd be the only one.

Good post. It is complete horseshit.

Scoots
07-21-2017, 05:25 PM
I think it's often difficult to discern what 'hate' means over the internet.

For example - from a basketball standpoint, I 'hate' Draymond Green. The sole reason is because of his comments towards the Cavs and the fans.

Other than that, he's cool with me. Seems to be the type of dude that I'd get along with.

I question KD's competitive nature and think it's fair that some people think he's a *****, but other than that it doesn't bother me.

LeBron annoys me with his antics, and in a weird way I'll be relieved once he retires and we can move past him. Despite that, I can't help but appreciate his talent and dedication to bringing a championship to Cleveland. Not only that, but he has done a lot of things for Cleveland and I feel like I understand him.

LaVar Ball can be annoying but I got an uncle like him, so I have no bad feelings towards him.

Bogut's illegal screens are so blatantly horrible and utterly game-breaking when he's playing for the Warriors, but it wouldn't seem bad when he's playing for MY team and EVERYONE ELSE does it too. :laugh2:

That's just the mentality most fans will have with players regarding refereeing, so I definitely agree with you there Scoots.

Yeah, LeBron's passive aggressive stuff and his "who me" act on the court when something happens with him bug me, but anybody who questions his talent really hasn't been paying attention.

You know, I think I finally understand some of the KD haters from this year. KD and the Warriors could win without joining the same team, and LeBron could win without the cheap shots both on and off the court. So what's the point.

I think KD wanted to play a certain style of the game and the only stable team he could join that played that way was the Warriors, and he knew full well he'd catch some flack for it and didn't give a damn.

Bogut's illegal screens, when they were called, stopped immediately. It's just that they were not usually called. The man is a basketball genius who doesn't usually get his due respect ... but a lot of that is because of what the injuries took from him. It's kind of amazing that he's managed to stay in the NBA as long as he has with significant numbness and nerve damage in his shooting arm.

Ball has already taken a little step back. Now the biggest issue with Lonzo is the Lakers fans all on his D when he's done nothing yet. It's like they've been taking lessons from LaVar.

I've always appreciated the guys who got by on guile in the NBA. Rodman, Stockton, Mullin, etc. They were great players only because they maximized the grey areas in the game ... just like Draymond does ... too short, too fat, too slow, can't shoot ... All NBA, DPOY, 2 titles, and can still list all of the players drafted before him.

LOb0
07-21-2017, 05:45 PM
Stopped reading at kd joining my team. I would be mocking the **** out of him regardless. The only benefit is that I would boo him in person

I agree. I'd love how good we are but I'd never debate or defend KD for what he did.

Chronz
07-22-2017, 12:26 AM
The more times you say this does not make it any less bull ****. But if you are indeed sincere (and make no mistake you have no basis for comparison so you don't know how you would react) and think you would be in the Clip stands booing him, you'd be the only one.

Make no mistake, there will NEVER be a basis for comparison for the kind of trans op KD achieved nor do I need one when the act goes against the very essence of my soul to the highest degree. I've never been ****ed in the *** either but Im pretty sure thats off the table for life in terms of enjoyment.

And since you seem so worried about me being alone, you should remember Im a Clippers fan and I'm used to being out numbered in my own building. Remember, Im the guy that mocked the dub fans that day, I actually talked to quite a few of your ilk about if they feel alil dirty from the defection and you'd be surprised at some of the answers I got. Im sure the Laker fans in the arena would cheer for KD but I know of quite a few die hards who wouldn't, hes that much of a *****.

AllBall
07-22-2017, 12:29 AM
The whole idea is stupid to begin with.

All these players are best friends off the court.

It's been reported that Draymond Green is friends with Lebron.

They just post all that foolishness on social media to draw followers, etc which makes them money.

It's all like WWE, fake drama for ratings.

Fans who fall for that crap are getting played.

Chronz
07-22-2017, 12:34 AM
I agree. I'd love how good we are but I'd never debate or defend KD for what he did.

We were already champions and a record breaking team before this prick ever hopped on, I wouldn't respect the success. I'd be happy to see the city celebrate but living in LA/Boston, is that even really that special anymore? Maybe all the success has deluded me but I want to say its a result of being a Clippers fan as well, its not like my team is catching the C's/Lakers in titles. I'd rather have a healthy/enjoyable league than have to watch like 20 hyped up must see games a year when I used to enjoy every other night of ball.

LOb0
07-22-2017, 01:57 AM
We were already champions and a record breaking team before this prick ever hopped on, I wouldn't respect the success. I'd be happy to see the city celebrate but living in LA/Boston, is that even really that special anymore? Maybe all the success has deluded me but I want to say its a result of being a Clippers fan as well, its not like my team is catching the C's/Lakers in titles. I'd rather have a healthy/enjoyable league than have to watch like 20 hyped up must see games a year when I used to enjoy every other night of ball.

I certainly wouldn't enjoy winning as much. It takes away the feeling of earning it when every series is basically over before it starts.

Chronz
07-22-2017, 02:16 AM
You think KD was truly mad in that gif or was he playing the role? Really wish he would just embrace it and be like yeah, I might join that team too.

LOb0
07-22-2017, 02:27 AM
You think KD was truly mad in that gif or was he playing the role? Really wish he would just embrace it and be like yeah, I might join that team too.

Oh he was pissed. He's extremely sensitive to this criticism. Which is strange, like he didn't know this was coming?

Only hope is he'll get so sick of it he'll leave after next year.

I wish Manning, after seeing Durant's reaction would have said "Durant, please don't get mad and join another awards show"

goingfor28
07-22-2017, 03:55 AM
I generally agree. The only time I would not support is (let me preface that it would never happen) LeBron joining my Celtics. I've spent my entire adult life rooting against him. I can't stand him, he's a complete tool. He'll go down as one of the GOAT and I respect that fact...But I would never condone him coming to Boston and I would never root for him if he did. I just can't.

No different than if Peyton Manning went to the Patriots or Alex Rodriguez to the Red Sox or Crosby to the Bruins. Some players I just can't root for under any circumstances.You would change your tune real quick if LeBron went to Boston.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Saddletramp
07-22-2017, 04:11 AM
You think KD was truly mad in that gif or was he playing the role? Really wish he would just embrace it and be like yeah, I might join that team too.

But he wouldn't because even he knows it was a ***** move.

FlashBolt
07-22-2017, 04:12 AM
There's a limit to what Bogut, KD, etc., can do.

I like Draymond for his ability to defend and establish presence. Not for his kicking nuts talent. That's not something I will support as a fan - which is mindboggling because many of his fans do support it. They're probably females because I can't imagine anyone sympathizing with a man who kicks nuts.

I hate Bogut. Plain and simple, I don't want him on the team. He's a dirty player who would make me root against my team.

The KD one is tricky because there is no right/wrong answer. As a fan of the game, I thought it was bad for the league. If I were a fan of the Warriors, then clearly I would have a more biased approach. Either way, we're all basketball fans before we're a fan of a certain team and quite frankly, even though I'd like to have a stacked team to support as my own team, if it means competition turns to absolute trash, no thanks.. I'd rather have KD+Westbrook against duos like Curry+Klay, LeBron+Irving, CP3+Harden, Kawhi+LMA, Wall+Beal, AD+Cousins, than a super stacked KD+Curry+Klay+Green vs two all-stars and two bums - which is in reality, the case for some teams. The hardcore reality is that some teams have ZERO All-Stars and the Warriors have four.. You can't possibly tell me that as a basketball fan, that's exciting to watch.

FlashBolt
07-22-2017, 04:14 AM
The whole idea is stupid to begin with.

All these players are best friends off the court.

It's been reported that Draymond Green is friends with Lebron.

They just post all that foolishness on social media to draw followers, etc which makes them money.

It's all like WWE, fake drama for ratings.

Fans who fall for that crap are getting played.

Being friends doesn't mean you can't compete against one another. If you want to treat it as WWE, go ahead. But there isn't much of an incentive for them to create unnecessary drama considering their salary is not dependent on creating it.

Oakmont_4
07-22-2017, 09:18 AM
You would change your tune real quick if LeBron went to Boston.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Nope. No I wouldn't. I'd root for Minnesota until he's gone.

WaDe03
07-22-2017, 10:59 AM
Oh he was pissed. He's extremely sensitive to this criticism. Which is strange, like he didn't know this was coming?

Only hope is he'll get so sick of it he'll leave after next year.

I wish Manning, after seeing Durant's reaction would have said "Durant, please don't get mad and join another awards show"

The whole thing was staged, it's been reported. It just makes KD look like an even bigger ***** because he's playing along with it. He himself knows he made the biggest ***** move in sports history and he won't even deny it.

AllBall
07-22-2017, 12:07 PM
The whole thing was staged, it's been reported. It just makes KD look like an even bigger ***** because he's playing along with it. He himself knows he made the biggest ***** move in sports history and he won't even deny it.

That's what I'm trying to get you all to realize. Most of the drama is all fake!! It's like wrestling nowadays, lol

LOb0
07-22-2017, 01:19 PM
The whole thing was staged, it's been reported. It just makes KD look like an even bigger ***** because he's playing along with it. He himself knows he made the biggest ***** move in sports history and he won't even deny it.

I've heard conflicting things on it. I don't think it was staged at all. The fact that his mom was laughing so hard in the moment and then was upset later makes me think it was legit.

Scoots
07-22-2017, 02:00 PM
The whole idea is stupid to begin with.

All these players are best friends off the court.

It's been reported that Draymond Green is friends with Lebron.

They just post all that foolishness on social media to draw followers, etc which makes them money.

It's all like WWE, fake drama for ratings.

Fans who fall for that crap are getting played.

It's been that way all along. Just enjoy the game and don't get caught up in the TMZ stuff.

Chronz
07-22-2017, 02:00 PM
"We"? I didn't realize you were a member of an NBA team.
I am, I wash their jock straps

Scoots
07-22-2017, 02:01 PM
We were already champions and a record breaking team before this prick ever hopped on, I wouldn't respect the success. I'd be happy to see the city celebrate but living in LA/Boston, is that even really that special anymore? Maybe all the success has deluded me but I want to say its a result of being a Clippers fan as well, its not like my team is catching the C's/Lakers in titles. I'd rather have a healthy/enjoyable league than have to watch like 20 hyped up must see games a year when I used to enjoy every other night of ball.

"We"? I didn't realize you were a member of an NBA team.

Scoots
07-22-2017, 02:09 PM
There's a limit to what Bogut, KD, etc., can do.

I like Draymond for his ability to defend and establish presence. Not for his kicking nuts talent. That's not something I will support as a fan - which is mindboggling because many of his fans do support it. They're probably females because I can't imagine anyone sympathizing with a man who kicks nuts.

I hate Bogut. Plain and simple, I don't want him on the team. He's a dirty player who would make me root against my team.

The KD one is tricky because there is no right/wrong answer. As a fan of the game, I thought it was bad for the league. If I were a fan of the Warriors, then clearly I would have a more biased approach. Either way, we're all basketball fans before we're a fan of a certain team and quite frankly, even though I'd like to have a stacked team to support as my own team, if it means competition turns to absolute trash, no thanks.. I'd rather have KD+Westbrook against duos like Curry+Klay, LeBron+Irving, CP3+Harden, Kawhi+LMA, Wall+Beal, AD+Cousins, than a super stacked KD+Curry+Klay+Green vs two all-stars and two bums - which is in reality, the case for some teams. The hardcore reality is that some teams have ZERO All-Stars and the Warriors have four.. You can't possibly tell me that as a basketball fan, that's exciting to watch.

I can't imagine anyone being a fan of Dray kicking nuts either.

I dislike Bogut for his fragility, but his game I love. Even with the limitations his injuries put on him.

As for enjoying the Warriors ... well, back in the 80s the 49ers were so good it was a straight up shock every time they lost, and a couple of those losses are in lists of worst officiated games of all time. They won 18 road games in a row in the NFL. They were so good the players said they could see defeat in the opposing players before the game had started. The result? They were one of the most popular NFL teams of all time, and had more to do with spreading the game internationally than any other team. They were beautiful to watch. They didn't win every title and neither have these Warriors. If you put KD on any team he's a star, but that's not true of any of the other Warriors. They had to build a team and a system around them and that system, as MANY players and coaches have said "is the way basketball should be played". Hell even Doc Rivers threw CP3 under the bus and said he had always wanted to play like the Warriors do but CP3 was keeping him from that.

I'm amazed by LeBron, Westbrook, Kyrie, and the spectacular skills they have ... but we've never seen them play a complete team game. I would LOVE to see that. I don't care what team they are on to do it, but I would watch ... and if they had 8 all-stars as teammates I'd still watch.

Scoots
07-22-2017, 02:11 PM
I am, I wash their jock straps

Do you use your hands?

tredigs
07-22-2017, 03:45 PM
Chronzie you should switch fandom to the world's most popular sport and start following the premier league. I hear there's a ton more parity in that sport : )

tredigs
07-23-2017, 10:49 PM
There's a limit to what Bogut, KD, etc., can do.

I like Draymond for his ability to defend and establish presence. Not for his kicking nuts talent. That's not something I will support as a fan - which is mindboggling because many of his fans do support it. They're probably females because I can't imagine anyone sympathizing with a man who kicks nuts.

I hate Bogut. Plain and simple, I don't want him on the team. He's a dirty player who would make me root against my team.

The KD one is tricky because there is no right/wrong answer. As a fan of the game, I thought it was bad for the league. If I were a fan of the Warriors, then clearly I would have a more biased approach. Either way, we're all basketball fans before we're a fan of a certain team and quite frankly, even though I'd like to have a stacked team to support as my own team, if it means competition turns to absolute trash, no thanks.. I'd rather have KD+Westbrook against duos like Curry+Klay, LeBron+Irving, CP3+Harden, Kawhi+LMA, Wall+Beal, AD+Cousins, than a super stacked KD+Curry+Klay+Green vs two all-stars and two bums - which is in reality, the case for some teams. The hardcore reality is that some teams have ZERO All-Stars and the Warriors have four.. You can't possibly tell me that as a basketball fan, that's exciting to watch.
Hilarious that you have no idea Bogut does not play for the Warriors. You are the perfect clown.

FlashBolt
07-24-2017, 12:38 AM
Hilarious that you have no idea Bogut does not play for the Warriors. You are the perfect clown.

Where in my post does it even imply that Bogut was on the Warriors? Hilarious that you are still alive. I would have thought someone would have gotten sick of you IRL. You are just a terrible person to associate with.

Scoots
07-24-2017, 10:18 AM
Hilarious that you have no idea Bogut does not play for the Warriors. You are the perfect clown.

WTH is the point of this post? Not only is it insulting it's incorrect. Do you get some kind of thrill from it?

R. Johnson#3
07-24-2017, 10:32 AM
Although he's not a star by any means I think the player that best fits this description is Matthew Dellavedova. I absolutely hate the guy but would be ecstatic if he ever became the Raps backup PG. The dude is a bonafide pest who gets under everyone's skin.

BKLYNpigeon
07-24-2017, 10:38 AM
Yes we are all homers to a certain extent. It's sports entertainment.

Most people who post on PSD or Reddit are fans who are a bit more knowledgeable.

Most people who post on twitter, FB or message boards etc. are trolls who have nothing constructive to say.

Chronz
07-24-2017, 10:41 AM
If the Warriors were plateauing as 50 win team I would have no problem with his defection, if they were a 60 win team I'd consider it the weakest move a star of his caliber has ever accomplished but I would have prolly gotten over it eventually, that he joined a ready made contender that had already proven so much without him makes it incredibly hard to respect him as a competitor. That he joined the exact team that was hurting/injuring his former teammates and had clowned him in his 3-1 series advantage only makes it look worse but its not the death-knell.

eibram
07-25-2017, 05:27 AM
As a Laker fan personally, I hated it when the Lakers tried their Big 3 experiment even before they started failing. And I'm constantly being annoyed by all these Photoshops of different players going to LA. I just think it'd be a greater victory for us if we raised these young guys to be champs.

Scoots
07-25-2017, 09:04 AM
Although he's not a star by any means I think the player that best fits this description is Matthew Dellavedova. I absolutely hate the guy but would be ecstatic if he ever became the Raps backup PG. The dude is a bonafide pest who gets under everyone's skin.

Good example ... dude is straight dirty.

Patrick Beverley is better in every way and also hated by many.

Scoots
07-25-2017, 09:06 AM
If the Warriors were plateauing as 50 win team I would have no problem with his defection, if they were a 60 win team I'd consider it the weakest move a star of his caliber has ever accomplished but I would have prolly gotten over it eventually, that he joined a ready made contender that had already proven so much without him makes it incredibly hard to respect him as a competitor. That he joined the exact team that was hurting/injuring his former teammates and had clowned him in his 3-1 series advantage only makes it look worse but its not the death-knell.

A 60 win team IS a contender. We all know you hate KD and there is no way you will change your mind. We also know KD doesn't care and you are not going to convince anyone else to hate KD. At some point you are just yelling at the wind.

Ahriman
07-25-2017, 09:13 AM
Pat Beverley is a guy I'd love to see on the T'Wolves for his hustle, even though I hate him when I see him play :laugh2:

CJ McCollum on the other hand is the archetype of a guy who puts up empty stats imo and who I'd hate to see in Minny

prodigy
07-25-2017, 09:18 AM
As a cavs fan what annoys me most about lebron isn't him complaining to officials. Every single player in the NBA and their moms complain about fouls. My issue with Lebron is he Supposedly cares so much about winning but he is making 33 million a season. Currently thats 1/3 of the teams payroll. He demanded publicly for the cavs to resign Thompson and JR to crazy money. He seems not to recruit very often. Thats what annoys me more then anything.

Draymond Green is a piece of ****. yes he has talent (thankfully for him hes always been around great players). I would never want him on my team. If he was i would be disgusted. I don't care about trash talking on the court, But when you personally attack a city for no reason thats 2 far. I don't want his ugly donkey *** face on my team. we can find someone else to shoot 41% from the field.

Scoots
07-25-2017, 09:29 AM
As a cavs fan what annoys me most about lebron isn't him complaining to officials. Every single player in the NBA and their moms complain about fouls. My issue with Lebron is he Supposedly cares so much about winning but he is making 33 million a season. Currently thats 1/3 of the teams payroll. He demanded publicly for the cavs to resign Thompson and JR to crazy money. He seems not to recruit very often. Thats what annoys me more then anything.

Draymond Green is a piece of ****. yes he has talent (thankfully for him hes always been around great players). I would never want him on my team. If he was i would be disgusted. I don't care about trash talking on the court, But when you personally attack a city for no reason thats 2 far. I don't want his ugly donkey *** face on my team. we can find someone else to shoot 41% from the field.

Who were Draymond's great teammates when he won in Michigan in high school? Who were his great teammates when he got Michigan State to the final 4?

I agree Green talks too much and is too emotional and is a bad shooter. But he makes his teams better, and he does that better than a lot of superstars do. And it was evident from when he was still in college.

prodigy
07-25-2017, 01:15 PM
Who were Draymond's great teammates when he won in Michigan in high school? Who were his great teammates when he got Michigan State to the final 4?

I agree Green talks too much and is too emotional and is a bad shooter. But he makes his teams better, and he does that better than a lot of superstars do. And it was evident from when he was still in college.

high school? STFU every NBA player good or bad dominated HS basketball. i avg'ed 15-7-4 in high school and i only played to stay in shape for football. BTW- I clearly stated Greens a good player. don't act like i didn't. But i def don't believe he can be the #1 option on a team and take them anywhere.

tredigs
07-25-2017, 06:00 PM
high school? STFU every NBA player good or bad dominated HS basketball. i avg'ed 15-7-4 in high school and i only played to stay in shape for football. BTW- I clearly stated Greens a good player. don't act like i didn't. But i def don't believe he can be the #1 option on a team and take them anywhere.

He led Michigan St to the Final 4 as a 1st Team All American and led the Warriors to a series win over the Rockets without Curry a couple years back. That's what we have to go on with him as the teams best player, and he was excellent. There is a big difference between being a teams #1 option offensively and being their best player. You would not want him as your #1, but elite teams could easily be built with Draymomd as the best player. He's a Swiss Army knife on both ends. I'm not sure there is more than two or three players in the game who could just be plopped into any team and immediately gel with whatever their system is/drastically improve the team.

Scoots
07-25-2017, 07:08 PM
high school? STFU every NBA player good or bad dominated HS basketball. i avg'ed 15-7-4 in high school and i only played to stay in shape for football. BTW- I clearly stated Greens a good player. don't act like i didn't. But i def don't believe he can be the #1 option on a team and take them anywhere.

Every player doesn't win their state championship twice. Every player doesn't drag their mediocre team to the final four. Green is an odd player in that he just wins and always has and that is an elite skill. It's just one we don't have a metric for. And I believe he would bring that with him regardless of who is around him. He wouldn't win as much, but he would DRIVE any team he's on forward. In the finals (I think) Curry was fouled and was complaining to the ref instead of getting back on D and Green was yelling at him the length of the court to move his ***. He demands effort from his teammates and every coach would love to have him.

It's frankly amazing he's as famous as he is since he has so many bad traits for the NBA.

What's more, he's earned the respect of his opponents. The best in the game know he is one of them. It's just NOT in scoring.

tredigs
07-25-2017, 07:53 PM
Every player doesn't win their state championship twice. Every player doesn't drag their mediocre team to the final four. Green is an odd player in that he just wins and always has and that is an elite skill. It's just one we don't have a metric for. And I believe he would bring that with him regardless of who is around him. He wouldn't win as much, but he would DRIVE any team he's on forward. In the finals (I think) Curry was fouled and was complaining to the ref instead of getting back on D and Green was yelling at him the length of the court to move his ***. He demands effort from his teammates and every coach would love to have him.

It's frankly amazing he's as famous as he is since he has so many bad traits for the NBA.

What's more, he's earned the respect of his opponents. The best in the game know he is one of them. It's just NOT in scoring.

He is regularly on the top of the leaderboard for rpm, has done nothing but help his teams absolutely dominate since he has been a starter, and is b2b All NBA + either DPOY or runner up every year now. If you don't get Draymond's dominance, you just don't understand basketball, period.

Hustla23
07-25-2017, 08:09 PM
Who cares? Basketball is ultimately a game and is essentially meaningless when it comes to how it affects one's day to day living (except if you're a Clevelander and your economy goes to **** when Lebron isn't around.)

People complaining about all this crap is what generates buzz and revenue.

When you think about it, it's pretty stupid to support your "home team" since you don't gain any benefit whatsoever. But without that emotional investment, it's not worth watching anyway.

tredigs
07-25-2017, 08:11 PM
@flashbolt

Which is why the Lebron Cavs in '08 were so much more popular than the Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat, ay! Hmmm...

Totally misread your Bogut comment though, so apologies on that. Funny how nuts you got though, you ****ing little weirdo.

FlashBolt
07-25-2017, 09:45 PM
I can't imagine anyone being a fan of Dray kicking nuts either.

I dislike Bogut for his fragility, but his game I love. Even with the limitations his injuries put on him.

As for enjoying the Warriors ... well, back in the 80s the 49ers were so good it was a straight up shock every time they lost, and a couple of those losses are in lists of worst officiated games of all time. They won 18 road games in a row in the NFL. They were so good the players said they could see defeat in the opposing players before the game had started. The result? They were one of the most popular NFL teams of all time, and had more to do with spreading the game internationally than any other team. They were beautiful to watch. They didn't win every title and neither have these Warriors. If you put KD on any team he's a star, but that's not true of any of the other Warriors. They had to build a team and a system around them and that system, as MANY players and coaches have said "is the way basketball should be played". Hell even Doc Rivers threw CP3 under the bus and said he had always wanted to play like the Warriors do but CP3 was keeping him from that.

I'm amazed by LeBron, Westbrook, Kyrie, and the spectacular skills they have ... but we've never seen them play a complete team game. I would LOVE to see that. I don't care what team they are on to do it, but I would watch ... and if they had 8 all-stars as teammates I'd still watch.

That's not a legitimate representation of basketball ability, though. I've stacked teams in pickup games and had them stacked against me in the same fashion. But we all knew who was good and who wasn't. My only grime with KD is simply the choice of team. I support making your situation better but as a fan, I felt he significantly destroyed the talent gap.

Scoots
07-25-2017, 10:58 PM
Who cares? Basketball is ultimately a game and is essentially meaningless when it comes to how it affects one's day to day living

So then why do you have 33k posts talking about something "meaningless"? Rings hollow to me.

Scoots
07-25-2017, 11:01 PM
That's not a legitimate representation of basketball ability, though. I've stacked teams in pickup games and had them stacked against me in the same fashion. But we all knew who was good and who wasn't. My only grime with KD is simply the choice of team. I support making your situation better but as a fan, I felt he significantly destroyed the talent gap.

The same issue people had with LeBron (not the same situation, I know) ... KD just didn't have the good grace to lose his first attempt at a title like LeBron did. I really think LeBron losing that first try went a long way to getting him into a better situation with the casual fans. I think the magnifying glass LeBron lives under is to some extent his own doing.

FlashBolt
07-25-2017, 11:05 PM
The same issue people had with LeBron (not the same situation, I know) ... KD just didn't have the good grace to lose his first attempt at a title like LeBron did. I really think LeBron losing that first try went a long way to getting him into a better situation with the casual fans. I think the magnifying glass LeBron lives under is to some extent his own doing.

Yes, when you're good, you're going to get more hate. Which is why KD gets so much hate as well. Too good to be joining an already historic team like that and ruining all competition. The guy could sit for the entire season and his team makes the NBA Finals without him. That's silly.

tredigs
07-25-2017, 11:23 PM
Yes, when you're good, you're going to get more hate. Which is why KD gets so much hate as well. Too good to be joining an already historic team like that and ruining all competition. The guy could sit for the entire season and his team makes the NBA Finals without him. That's silly.

If only Westbrook wasn't... exactly who he proved to be (literally the most ME-FIRST player in NBA history. Did he break his own USG% record or was Kobe in '06 #2 before he crushed that? I forget). Can't imagine why KD sought greener pastures when given the opportunity... An opportunity that literally no other star in history has had the chance to capitalize on (CRAZY that no other player has made a decision like his, though, right?). hmm.

Gibby23
07-25-2017, 11:30 PM
He led Michigan St to the Final 4 as a 1st Team All American and led the Warriors to a series win over the Rockets without Curry a couple years back. That's what we have to go on with him as the teams best player, and he was excellent. There is a big difference between being a teams #1 option offensively and being their best player. You would not want him as your #1, but elite teams could easily be built with Draymomd as the best player. He's a Swiss Army knife on both ends. I'm not sure there is more than two or three players in the game who could just be plopped into any team and immediately gel with whatever their system is/drastically improve the team.
Alot of that had to do with the fact that He was a 4 year college player and Michigan State usually has older teams. Either really talented teams do well in college or teams that are older. Kind of like South Carolina, Gonzaga, Oregon, and even North Carolina this season.

I mean Josh Hart was an all American at Nova and won a national championship, he wasn't a good NBA prospect this draft. Drayton wouldn't be viewed close to the same if he was on teams like the Lakers, Suns, Kings, or Sixers to start his career.

tredigs
07-26-2017, 12:05 AM
Alot of that had to do with the fact that He was a 4 year college player and Michigan State usually has older teams. Either really talented teams do well in college or teams that are older. Kind of like South Carolina, Gonzaga, Oregon, and even North Carolina this season.

I mean Josh Hart was an all American at Nova and won a national championship, he wasn't a good NBA prospect this draft. Drayton wouldn't be viewed close to the same if he was on teams like the Lakers, Suns, Kings, or Sixers to start his career.

Lol you just don't understand how good Draymond is dude. It's OK, most don't. He doesn't have flashy scoring moves, we get it.

I was about to write out again all that he does, but erased mid sentence. He's a proven All-NBA DPOY/champion at this point. You get it or you don't.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 12:08 AM
Lol you just don't understand how good Draymond is dude. It's OK, most don't. He doesn't have flashy scoring moves, we get it.

I was about to write out again all that he does, but erased mid sentence. He's a proven All-NBA DPOY/champion at this point. You get it or you don't.

I know how good he is. He is like a Rodman and Ben Wallace type player to a championship team and isn't really worth much to a bad team.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 12:10 AM
You could even throw in Lamar Odom for what he did with the Lakers. He isn't a superstar player.

tredigs
07-26-2017, 12:26 AM
I know how good he is. He is like a Rodman and Ben Wallace type player to a championship team and isn't really worth much to a bad team.

He's like Rodman or Wallace defensively (better at some aspects, worse at others, but still the apex of the sport), but SO much better offensively than them. This is a ball handling PF who dishes out 6+ assists a night and can hit 3's. Do you not get how powerful/dominant a player like that is? It's hilarious to me that some still don't get how good he is.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 12:27 AM
He's like Rodman or Wallace defensively (better at some aspects, worse at others, but still the apex of the sport), but SO much better offensively than them. This is a ball handling PF who dishes out 6+ assists a night and can hit 3's. Do you not get how powerful/dominant a player like that is? It's hilarious to me that some still don't get how good he is.

I know he is good. He is a very valuable piece to a championship team, but not worth much to a bad team.

mngopher35
07-26-2017, 12:30 AM
He doesn't score major ppg, Green will always be undervalued to a chunk of people simply for that reason

tredigs
07-26-2017, 12:36 AM
I know he is good. He is a very valuable piece to a championship team, but not worth much to a bad team.

I mean he would immediately make every team extremely better/more dynamic defensively and offer them a stretch 4 with elite playmaking ability. Also not an automatic injury concern ala Anthony Davis or Blake Griffin. He is the most impactful power forward in the NBA.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 12:39 AM
I mean he would immediately make every team extremely better/more dynamic defensively and offer them a stretch 4 with elite playmaking ability. Also not an automatic injury concern ala Anthony Davis or Blake Griffin. He is the most impactful power forward in the NBA.

The Pelicans and Clippers would have a worse record if you replaced Davis or Griffin with Green. Clippers would flat out suckered with that switch. Curry and Kay ain't going with him.

tredigs
07-26-2017, 12:44 AM
The Pelicans and Clippers would have a worse record if you replaced Davis or Griffin with Green. Clippers would flat out suckered with that switch. Curry and Kay ain't going with him.

Unsubstantiated conjecture for the win. Granted yes, AD and BG can both definitely put up more points than Draymond.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 12:47 AM
Unsubstantiated conjecture for the win. Granted yes, AD and BG can both definitely put up more points than Draymond.

No GM in the NBA would trade AD or Blake for Dray. Like I said, he helps good team tremendously, doesn't move the needle for bad teams, especially if you try and replace their star player at the same position for Dray.

tredigs
07-26-2017, 12:56 AM
No GM in the NBA would trade AD or Blake for Dray. Like I said, he helps good team tremendously, doesn't move the needle for bad teams, especially if you try and replace their star player at the same position for Dray.

Lol bro BG has never had his own team (other than as a 21 year old where they won 30 games), and AD has snuck into one playoff appearance (where they were swept). That's what they've shown as a #1. Give me Draymond as a co-star over them as a star every day of the week. Specifically when injuries are brought into the mix. Both of these guys can't be trusted.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 12:56 AM
Lol bro BG has never had his own team (other than as a 21 year old where they won 30 games), and AD has snuck into one playoff appearance (where they were swept). That's what they've shown as a #1. Give me Draymond as a co-star over them as a star every day of the week.
Replace them with Dre on those teams and they don't win that many. Dray was garbage when he came in. He got better as steph became a stat. Why Co star? You compared them to those 2 guys. 2 guys nobody would trade for Dray.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 12:59 AM
Again, you have no clue what they would look like or what they would win in this parallel universe. All we DO know is they have not won **** with BG and AD as their best player.

You have no idea either. Lol. Just making **** up. I do know they Dray doesn't get you AD or Blaken Griffin straight up. That is a fact.

tredigs
07-26-2017, 01:00 AM
Replace them with Dre on those teams and they don't win that many. Dray was garbage when he came in. He got better as steph became a stat. Why Co star? You compared them to those 2 guys. 2 guys nobody would trade for Dray.

Again, you have no clue what they would look like or what they would win in this parallel universe. All we DO know is they have not won **** with BG and AD as their best player.

Chronz
07-26-2017, 01:32 AM
A 60 win team IS a contender.
I know, hence why I would have thought it was the weakest move from a player of his caliber, then he found a way to clear the bar.


We all know you hate KD and there is no way you will change your mind.
He could try growing a pair.


We also know KD doesn't care and you are not going to convince anyone else to hate KD. At some point you are just yelling at the wind.
Im not convinced you know what KD thinks, I get the exact opposite impression from him and thats really how subjective he's left it. Hell just this morning one of the talking shows (prolly more) were talking about how KD cant stop responding to his trolls, some on the panel saw it as pathetic/cringe worthy practice and plenty of fans see it as a sign of his sensitivity(at best) or realization that they have a point(at worst). I remember a report a few years ago about him getting ticked off at how the media criticized his play, or getting mad at his twitter reel etc.... Given how he joined a record breaking team+champion without him, I think its easy to see where e stands but hey, keep thinking its just mindless chatter from biased fans of other teams/haters.

And plz dont make a habit of speaking on behalf of others, not that it matters because its the debate I enjoy (especially on an open and shut case like KD's cowardice) but I've convinced the minds of others before (including an actual Dubs fan in attendance) so I'll pass on your false assumption.

Again, KD didn't just top what Bron did, he blew it out of the water to a degree that will never be possible again, even if someone were as scared as KD, they couldn't achieve the same sex change operation.

Chronz
07-26-2017, 01:46 AM
I know how good he is. He is like a Rodman and Ben Wallace type player to a championship team and isn't really worth much to a bad team.
Even if that were true, is it really much more about how a player shines on a bad team vs how they shine on a champ?

I disagree tho, I saw how ****** the Pistons played without Rodman and how he turned them into championship contenders in various years. The influence a single player can have is sometimes very situational tho.

Chronz
07-26-2017, 01:55 AM
The Pelicans and Clippers would have a worse record if you replaced Davis or Griffin with Green. Clippers would flat out suckered with that switch. Curry and Kay ain't going with him.

Shows how little you actually pay attention to that other LA team. The Clips have always lost because of their lack of defense, particularly in the interior more than anything else. The fit between their former big-3 was always awkward because none were 3pt shooters and only CP3 was even close.

Imagine the spacing CP3/DJ have with another 3pt shooter out there, we already saw how they upped their production when we swapped Blake with Mbah Moute as the defensive/stretch-4, now swap that guy with an actual DPOY with ball handling skills to boot. Blake is more important to the Clippers now(prolly) cuz they need point-Blake to begin his career but when CP3 was around, there is no doubt they would have had a better record with the more durable, superior defending/shooting player. It would have been the glue that brought the pieces together instead of the overlap between 2-PG's. CP3 left in part because he will FINALLY have supreme spacing around him, the last time he came close to this was when he was a speedster with Peja/West as outlet options.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 02:08 AM
Shows how little you actually pay attention to that other LA team. The Clips have always lost because of their lack of defense, particularly in the interior more than anything else. The fit between their former big-3 was always awkward because none were 3pt shooters and only CP3 was even close.

Imagine the spacing CP3/DJ have with another 3pt shooter out there, we already saw how they upped their production when we swapped Blake with Mbah Moute as the defensive/stretch-4, now swap that guy with an actual DPOY with ball handling skills to boot. Blake is more important to the Clippers now(prolly) cuz they need point-Blake to begin his career but when CP3 was around, there is no doubt they would have had a better record with the more durable, superior defending/shooting player. It would have been the glue that brought the pieces together instead of the overlap between 2-PG's. CP3 left in part because he will FINALLY have supreme spacing around him, the last time he came close to this was when he was a speedster with Peja/West as outlet options.

My argument is as they are constructed. Dray is good with other stats. He would be good with CP3, DJ, Reddick. He wouldn't have a bigger impact than Blake on the team right now.

Chronz
07-26-2017, 11:50 AM
My argument is as they are constructed. Dray is good with other stats. He would be good with CP3, DJ, Reddick. He wouldn't have a bigger impact than Blake on the team right now.
You're prolly right about that but is that really so much more important than turning a good team into a true contender, which is what these players who can dominate without producing much in the way of individual stats? Those guys just don't grow on trees so why belittle them?

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-26-2017, 11:58 AM
The KD thing can't be justified. He destroyed the competitive balance of the league in a move that showed more cowardice than anything sports related I had ever seen in my life.

Scoots
07-26-2017, 12:01 PM
Yes, when you're good, you're going to get more hate. Which is why KD gets so much hate as well. Too good to be joining an already historic team like that and ruining all competition. The guy could sit for the entire season and his team makes the NBA Finals without him. That's silly.

More than just being good though. There are plenty of very famous people who don't have every thing they say or do analyzed like LeBron. Maybe it's that he was kind of aggressive looking for the spotlight early in his career, or maybe it's his social media presence, or maybe it's giving himself a nickname. I don't know ... but it's not just that he's good.

Scoots
07-26-2017, 12:06 PM
I know how good he is. He is like a Rodman and Ben Wallace type player to a championship team and isn't really worth much to a bad team.

He was drafted in 2012, the Warriors won the Vegas Summer league, the team went from 23 wins to 47 in his first year, then 51, then 67 and a title. And yeah, he didn't start his first 2 years, but his teammates then talk about his value to the team even then.

He WAS on a bad team, and he meant a lot.

Scoots
07-26-2017, 12:10 PM
I know, hence why I would have thought it was the weakest move from a player of his caliber, then he found a way to clear the bar.


He could try growing a pair.


Im not convinced you know what KD thinks, I get the exact opposite impression from him and thats really how subjective he's left it. Hell just this morning one of the talking shows (prolly more) were talking about how KD cant stop responding to his trolls, some on the panel saw it as pathetic/cringe worthy practice and plenty of fans see it as a sign of his sensitivity(at best) or realization that they have a point(at worst). I remember a report a few years ago about him getting ticked off at how the media criticized his play, or getting mad at his twitter reel etc.... Given how he joined a record breaking team+champion without him, I think its easy to see where e stands but hey, keep thinking its just mindless chatter from biased fans of other teams/haters.

And plz dont make a habit of speaking on behalf of others, not that it matters because its the debate I enjoy (especially on an open and shut case like KD's cowardice) but I've convinced the minds of others before (including an actual Dubs fan in attendance) so I'll pass on your false assumption.

Again, KD didn't just top what Bron did, he blew it out of the water to a degree that will never be possible again, even if someone were as scared as KD, they couldn't achieve the same sex change operation.

So, people online can troll and find it entertaining and not be pathetic *cough cough* ... but KD can't?

Okay man ... I get that you hate him, more power to you. :)

Scoots
07-26-2017, 12:27 PM
The KD thing can't be justified. He destroyed the competitive balance of the league in a move that showed more cowardice than anything sports related I had ever seen in my life.

Kermit Washington sucker punching Rudy Tomjonavich.
All of the blatant cheating in baseball.
The Black Sox.
Tyson and the Ear.
Running up the score on hopelessly outmatched opponents in college football (Georgia Tech 222, Cumberland 0 ... in FOOTBALL).
Ndamukong Suh.
Romanowski's racist comments, spitting in a players face, and beating a man so bad he ended his career.
Scottie quitting on the Bulls.
Chris Simon being suspended 55 games in 1 year for multiple cheap shots in the NHL
The Malice in the Palace
Zidane's head butt
Tonya Harding.
"No mas"

And I'm sure there are others I couldn't think of. If you don't know what any of them are google them.

prodigy
07-26-2017, 01:30 PM
He led Michigan St to the Final 4 as a 1st Team All American and led the Warriors to a series win over the Rockets without Curry a couple years back. That's what we have to go on with him as the teams best player, and he was excellent. There is a big difference between being a teams #1 option offensively and being their best player. You would not want him as your #1, but elite teams could easily be built with Draymomd as the best player. He's a Swiss Army knife on both ends. I'm not sure there is more than two or three players in the game who could just be plopped into any team and immediately gel with whatever their system is/drastically improve the team.

once again and for the last time did i say he was trash? for real answer this question with a yes or no please. Thank you.

When did Green dominate the rockets without Curry? 2015 Curry put up 31-4-5 vs rockets and played all 5 games. 2016 Klay thompson went off. Green played well hes a good player. But if ur telling me he effects a game like Lebron then save ur breath. DM ur buddies and talk about it but i won't listen lol. Green DOES have a very strong effect on games def with his defense and attitude. i honestly believe he scares people. But he's not a superstar.

ewing
07-26-2017, 01:31 PM
Kermit Washington sucker punching Rudy Tomjonavich.
All of the blatant cheating in baseball.
The Black Sox.
Tyson and the Ear.
Running up the score on hopelessly outmatched opponents in college football (Georgia Tech 222, Cumberland 0 ... in FOOTBALL).
Ndamukong Suh.
Romanowski's racist comments, spitting in a players face, and beating a man so bad he ended his career.
Scottie quitting on the Bulls.
Chris Simon being suspended 55 games in 1 year for multiple cheap shots in the NHL
The Malice in the Palace
Zidane's head butt
Tonya Harding.
"No mas"

And I'm sure there are others I couldn't think of. If you don't know what any of them are google them.

you don't seem to know what cowardice means

tredigs
07-26-2017, 01:44 PM
once again and for the last time did i say he was trash? for real answer this question with a yes or no please. Thank you.

When did Green dominate the rockets without Curry? 2015 Curry put up 31-4-5 vs rockets and played all 5 games. 2016 Klay thompson went off. Green played well hes a good player. But if ur telling me he effects a game like Lebron then save ur breath. DM ur buddies and talk about it but i won't listen lol. Green DOES have a very strong effect on games def with his defense and attitude. i honestly believe he scares people. But he's not a superstar.
Who are you talking to? Take your own advice and tell me where I quoted you saying he was trash? Next tell me where I said he effects the game like a top-5 player in history. You're just making your own narrative and talking to yourself at this point.

You may not have seen the Warriors/Rockets series after Curry went down for a couple weeks, but it was Draymond - not Klay - who was the best player on the court. He was the one driving the team as both the facilitator offensively with his 7 apg (another facet of his game people think magically goes away without Curry... guess not) and absolutely dominating on the defensive end. Klay was solid/efficient as a scorer and his defense was fine (not close to the level we saw in his playoff run this year... which somewhat made up for his shooting woes), but Draymond was the better facilitator/rebounder/defender and the key to the Warriors easy 5 game win. It's not a fluke that Draymond has been top-10 in RPM each of the last 3 seasons. His impact on the game (read: the game, not scoring) is unquestionably superstar level.

Gibby23
07-26-2017, 01:46 PM
He was drafted in 2012, the Warriors won the Vegas Summer league, the team went from 23 wins to 47 in his first year, then 51, then 67 and a title. And yeah, he didn't start his first 2 years, but his teammates then talk about his value to the team even then.

He WAS on a bad team, and he meant a lot.

Are you sure that 2012 season didn't have to do with Steph playing 52 games more than the previous season and having his best season up to that point, his scoring going from 14 to 22 points? Or 2nd year Klay getting better and scoring 4 more ppg than the year before from 12 to 16 and playing 82 games compared to 66 the year before?

Or was it Dray's 13mpg and the negative value he brought his rookie year?

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-26-2017, 02:03 PM
Kermit Washington sucker punching Rudy Tomjonavich.
All of the blatant cheating in baseball.
The Black Sox.
Tyson and the Ear.
Running up the score on hopelessly outmatched opponents in college football (Georgia Tech 222, Cumberland 0 ... in FOOTBALL).
Ndamukong Suh.
Romanowski's racist comments, spitting in a players face, and beating a man so bad he ended his career.
Scottie quitting on the Bulls.
Chris Simon being suspended 55 games in 1 year for multiple cheap shots in the NHL
The Malice in the Palace
Zidane's head butt
Tonya Harding.
"No mas"

And I'm sure there are others I couldn't think of. If you don't know what any of them are google them.

Most of those aren't acts of cowardice so much as they are immaturity or some other unethical behaviour. The Malice in the Palace wasn't cowardice for instance. That was Ron Artest and his teammates losing their heads and acting like psychos. The Black Sox issue was more about greed. As far as cowardice is concerned, the Durant decision is definitely up there among all sports related issues.

Zidane head butting someone was an example of a man who lost his temper and did a highly inappropriate thing. Durant had time to sit back and think about his decision. He made his decision because he was afraid of what his legacy would look like if he never won a championship, so he took the easiest path possible. It was not a heat of the moment thing nor was it an example of some other short coming in his personality. He doesn't have self control issues with his temper for example. He's just a coward who took the easy way out.

tredigs
07-26-2017, 02:17 PM
Most of those aren't acts of cowardice so much as they are immaturity or some other unethical behaviour. The Malice in the Palace wasn't cowardice for instance. That was Ron Artest and his teammates losing their heads and acting like psychos. The Black Sox issue was more about greed. As far as cowardice is concerned, the Durant decision is definitely up there among all sports related issues.

The only reason you - and everyone with this view - thinks this is because this is not a situation that ever presents itself. If a championship caliber (albeit losing) team had the opportunity to sign an MVP caliber player every off-season, rest assure, it would happen all the time.

As for his list i have no idea wtf he was going for there. ZIdane's headbutt? Lol. Made no sense but regardless, while KD's decision did come off as off-color as far as NBA circles are concerned, it's again simply because superstars are never actually afforded that opportunity. You're living in a fairy tale if you actually think players give a **** about making sure there is enough competitive balance for the other teams when they make the decision to sign somewhere. And frankly I think KD would have preferred that the Warriors lost in the first round the year he signed. He was clearly done playing with Westbrook and just loved what Golden State had to offer as an organization from both management on down to their playing style. I think it had FAR more to do with those factors than some secret veiled attempt by him to simply create a juggernaut that would make fans like yourself cower and curse his name at every turn.

Saddletramp
07-26-2017, 02:22 PM
Who are you talking to? Take your own advice and tell me where I quoted you saying he was trash? Next tell me where I said he effects the game like a top-5 player in history. You're just making your own narrative and talking to yourself at this point.

You may not have seen the Warriors/Rockets series after Curry went down for a couple weeks, but it was Draymond - not Klay - who was the best player on the court. He was the one driving the team as both the facilitator offensively with his 7 apg (another facet of his game people think magically goes away without Curry... guess not) and absolutely dominating on the defensive end. Klay was solid/efficient as a scorer and his defense was fine (not close to the level we saw in his playoff run this year... which somewhat made up for his shooting woes), but Draymond was the better facilitator/rebounder/defender and the key to the Warriors easy 5 game win. It's not a fluke that Draymond has been top-10 in RPM each of the last 3 seasons. His impact on the game (read: the game, not scoring) is unquestionably superstar level.

That second year where they met in the first round? Something was way off that whole year for the Rockets. Not taking anything away from the Warriors, but the Rockets weren't beating anyone that year.

tredigs
07-26-2017, 02:30 PM
That second year where they met in the first round? Something was way off that whole year for the Rockets. Not taking anything away from the Warriors, but the Rockets weren't beating anyone that year.

I realized the Rockets were nothing special, but it's what we have to go on, Draymond showed up as the best player in an easy series win (5 game beatdown with the last two games being ~30 point wins) where the league MVP went down after 1 half of 1 game. Point being, it's simply more evidence of his superstar level impact on the game.

Saddletramp
07-26-2017, 04:17 PM
No argument from me about Green's level of play. He's a monster.

prodigy
07-29-2017, 09:44 AM
Who are you talking to? Take your own advice and tell me where I quoted you saying he was trash? Next tell me where I said he effects the game like a top-5 player in history. You're just making your own narrative and talking to yourself at this point.

You may not have seen the Warriors/Rockets series after Curry went down for a couple weeks, but it was Draymond - not Klay - who was the best player on the court. He was the one driving the team as both the facilitator offensively with his 7 apg (another facet of his game people think magically goes away without Curry... guess not) and absolutely dominating on the defensive end. Klay was solid/efficient as a scorer and his defense was fine (not close to the level we saw in his playoff run this year... which somewhat made up for his shooting woes), but Draymond was the better facilitator/rebounder/defender and the key to the Warriors easy 5 game win. It's not a fluke that Draymond has been top-10 in RPM each of the last 3 seasons. His impact on the game (read: the game, not scoring) is unquestionably superstar level.

You are listing his teams accomplishments as if I said hes horrible and couldn't play basketball. Green is a good player. But what brought this all up was somebody said everyone would want him on their team. I said not me and mentioned why. Then i had you acting like i said he's a bad player. not the case. I hate players who talk Crap to people who cant defend themselves and doesn't involve basketball. Its dirty and wimpy. Thats what cowards do. I'll Sign someone else who shoots 41% from field.

Chronz
07-30-2017, 02:06 PM
Most of those aren't acts of cowardice so much as they are immaturity or some other unethical behaviour. The Malice in the Palace wasn't cowardice for instance. That was Ron Artest and his teammates losing their heads and acting like psychos. The Black Sox issue was more about greed. As far as cowardice is concerned, the Durant decision is definitely up there among all sports related issues.

Zidane head butting someone was an example of a man who lost his temper and did a highly inappropriate thing. Durant had time to sit back and think about his decision. He made his decision because he was afraid of what his legacy would look like if he never won a championship, so he took the easiest path possible. It was not a heat of the moment thing nor was it an example of some other short coming in his personality. He doesn't have self control issues with his temper for example. He's just a coward who took the easy way out.

Crushed it

goingfor28
08-01-2017, 04:56 AM
A 60 win team IS a contender. We all know you hate KD and there is no way you will change your mind. We also know KD doesn't care and you are not going to convince anyone else to hate KD. At some point you are just yelling at the wind.Doesn't change the fact that KD is still a ***** tho

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

PurpleLynch
08-01-2017, 09:36 AM
I hate Green's attitude and dirty plays, but man, he's the best PF in the world right now.

Hawkeye15
08-01-2017, 10:14 AM
cowardice, and impulsive reaction, can be totally different things. Durant took a long, calculate approach to making a pansy decision. Was it the best decision for him, and his family? That is up to him to decide. But his decision, decided the outcome of the NBA for a few years, and because of a cap loophole, allowed a superstar in free agency to join an all time team already in place. He will be viewed as a coward by many/most, there is nothing any of his fans, teammates, family, or anyone else can do about it. Just the way it is.

The best part about being human, and being American, is we generally get to make our own decisions. With those decisions, come impact to others many times.

The dude made a puss move. Oh well, is what it is, he will continue to get slammed, life goes on.

Hawkeye15
08-01-2017, 10:16 AM
Green, on a team where he is the #1, would be exposed imo. His offensive game is very versatile, but his scoring isn't near elite, and he would get a ton taken away from him if he were given more attention, in which case he would on any other team in the league. He is a top 15 player, but I can't put him with the elite of the elite.

Scoots
08-01-2017, 10:46 AM
Green, on a team where he is the #1, would be exposed imo. His offensive game is very versatile, but his scoring isn't near elite, and he would get a ton taken away from him if he were given more attention, in which case he would on any other team in the league. He is a top 15 player, but I can't put him with the elite of the elite.

Don't be kind. Green's scoring is BAD.

Hawkeye15
08-01-2017, 10:49 AM
Don't be kind. Green's scoring is BAD.

yeah he would be exposed badly if he was actually an option teams had to worry about.

For the Warriors, he is PERFECT. As a top 1-2 option, sorry, but he wouldn't be considered a top 15 player, like at all. If you are that inefficient scoring the ball with no attention given to you, imagine if teams actually tried to stop you...eeck

Scoots
08-01-2017, 11:36 AM
yeah he would be exposed badly if he was actually an option teams had to worry about.

For the Warriors, he is PERFECT. As a top 1-2 option, sorry, but he wouldn't be considered a top 15 player, like at all. If you are that inefficient scoring the ball with no attention given to you, imagine if teams actually tried to stop you...eeck

Thankfully Curry, Klay, and KD are good enough Green, Zaza, and Iguodala's scoring issues are well hidden, and if one of them "goes off" the Warriors essentially always win.

tredigs
08-01-2017, 11:36 AM
yeah he would be exposed badly if he was actually an option teams had to worry about.

For the Warriors, he is PERFECT. As a top 1-2 option, sorry, but he wouldn't be considered a top 15 player, like at all. If you are that inefficient scoring the ball with no attention given to you, imagine if teams actually tried to stop you...eeck
Shortsighted logic imo. He was actually far less efficient offensively last year than he was the prior two seasons with less offensive talent and more field goal attempts. And that sort of flies right in the face of your theory, right?

I'm any regard, scoring is the least important/potent of his game, and to It would never ask or need him to be a high volume scorer in order to unlock everything that he offers on the floor. Hence why he could be a low efficiency scorer in low volume like last season, yet still provide top 10 level impact. I don't see why being on another team changes that at all.

Hawkeye15
08-01-2017, 11:48 AM
Shortsighted logic imo. He was actually far less efficient offensively last year than he was the prior two seasons with less offensive talent and more field goal attempts. And that sort of flies right in the face of your theory, right?

I'm any regard, scoring is the least important/potent of his game, and to It would never ask or need him to be a high volume scorer in order to unlock everything that he offers on the floor. Hence why he could be a low efficiency scorer in low volume like last season, yet still provide top 10 level impact. I don't see why being on another team changes that at all.

on a team that is in need of scoring from a so called top 10 player, yes, it would matter that he isn't an efficient scorer. He was able to completely ignore scoring this past year, to concentrate on other things. That wouldn't be the case on many other teams. Prior year, when he with "less talent", he was still with the 2 greatest shooters in the game, and had PLENTY of freedom. He wasn't exactly on my Wolves for example.

Look, there are probably countless examples of all time greats who would be viewed much worse, and countless examples of forgotten players that would be considered much better, if their rosters where different. Green is not a player we can just toss on any team or situation, and he is elite. Not like a Steph Curry, KD, Leonard, etc.

His defensive impact likely drops if he is shouldered with more scoring/playmaking responsibility. He is another example in the list of many that benefit exponentially from a roster that makes up his deficiencies, and promotes his efficiencies.

prodigy
08-01-2017, 12:50 PM
I hate Green's attitude and dirty plays, but man, he's the best PF in the world right now.

TF? no. lol. Many players at the C-PF spots that are much better scorers and rebounders than Green. Greens a good defender but hes also not a true PF. more of a SF but with the NBA changing styles he can play PF. He's good but the best in the world? lets not forget who his teammates are. Green roams free a lot because how great Curry, Thompson and now Durant are. I think thats what people forget.

Once again, because i know people will put words in my mouth. Green is a talented player. But lets not act crazy now. He benefits from great players around him. Which is fine nothing wrong with that, but you can't be the best in the world if you cant lead a team. Which we have no proof he can do that. He shot 41% last season with 3 possible HOF'ers next to him. Prob not someone who can be a 1st option.

mrblisterdundee
08-01-2017, 01:42 PM
So ... who is hated but you'd love to have them, and who is loved that you don't want on your team?

I feel like a lot of the good defensive players are often hated. Artest was always annoying and somewhat dirty, but I'd love to have him on the Blazers hitting threes and defending point guard through power forward same with guys like Draymond and Barnes.
Obviously I'd love to have LeBron, although he doesn't take enough blame for pressuring Cleveland into mortgaging its future.
Durant doesn't fit well in this discussion. The only reason he's hated is for joining a team that was already probably the best in the NBA. If he had joined any team other than Golden State, San Antonio or Cleveland, I don't think he'd be hated beyond any usual rivalry. It's not like he didn't try in Oklahoma, which screwed itself out of a dynasty by trading Harden.

Vee-Rex
08-01-2017, 02:24 PM
I think there's a general flaw in the way people compare players, and it leads to statements such as, "Draymond over any other PF".

A team starts off with zero superstar talent. It's hard to acquire that 1st superstar, let alone pair him with other superstar/all-star level talents. If I'm a team in this situation, I'm taking Anthony Davis over Draymond Green 24/7 and twice on Sundays. IMO, NBA GMs would do the same.

The only reason there are even people arguing in favor of Draymond is because he has had wonderful success with his skillset in the Warriors system. However, that does not mean he would have the exact same success in another system surrounded by other players, and neither does it mean that the Warriors wouldn't have won 2 of the last 3 championships if they had AD instead of Draymond.

Certain advanced stats favor Green, but contextual logic would suggest that AD's advanced stats would most likely be more shiny if he was in the same situation.

Draymond is NOT a better player than Anthony Davis.

Hawkeye15
08-01-2017, 02:32 PM
I think there's a general flaw in the way people compare players, and it leads to statements such as, "Draymond over any other PF".

A team starts off with zero superstar talent. It's hard to acquire that 1st superstar, let alone pair him with other superstar/all-star level talents. If I'm a team in this situation, I'm taking Anthony Davis over Draymond Green 24/7 and twice on Sundays. IMO, NBA GMs would do the same.

The only reason there are even people arguing in favor of Draymond is because he has had wonderful success with his skillset in the Warriors system. However, that does not mean he would have the exact same success in another system surrounded by other players, and neither does it mean that the Warriors wouldn't have won 2 of the last 3 championships if they had AD instead of Draymond.

Certain advanced stats favor Green, but contextual logic would suggest that AD's advanced stats would most likely be more shiny if he was in the same situation.

Draymond is NOT a better player than Anthony Davis.

agreed. I also wouldn't even consider trading KAT for Green, despite the fact that Green is better right now for instance. I just think there are better talents/players than Green, even if what he is doing is probably all NBA material.

eDush
08-02-2017, 06:09 AM
I think there's a general flaw in the way people compare players, and it leads to statements such as, "Draymond over any other PF".

A team starts off with zero superstar talent. It's hard to acquire that 1st superstar, let alone pair him with other superstar/all-star level talents. If I'm a team in this situation, I'm taking Anthony Davis over Draymond Green 24/7 and twice on Sundays. IMO, NBA GMs would do the same.

The only reason there are even people arguing in favor of Draymond is because he has had wonderful success with his skillset in the Warriors system. However, that does not mean he would have the exact same success in another system surrounded by other players, and neither does it mean that the Warriors wouldn't have won 2 of the last 3 championships if they had AD instead of Draymond.

Certain advanced stats favor Green, but contextual logic would suggest that AD's advanced stats would most likely be more shiny if he was in the same situation.

Draymond is NOT a better player than Anthony Davis.

agreed. I also wouldn't even consider trading KAT for Green, despite the fact that Green is better right now for instance. I just think there are better talents/players than Green, even if what he is doing is probably all NBA material.I would lean towards Dray but it depends on the team and glad I am in no position to make such decisions. I would trade the entire front court Dubs roster for KAT besides Dray right now but that's not saying much lol

prodigy
08-02-2017, 09:43 AM
If u think for a second Green is better then Kat then may god have mercy on ur sports soul lol. I get being a homer, but sometimes you gotta remove the D from ur A.

prodigy
08-02-2017, 09:48 AM
I think there's a general flaw in the way people compare players, and it leads to statements such as, "Draymond over any other PF".

A team starts off with zero superstar talent. It's hard to acquire that 1st superstar, let alone pair him with other superstar/all-star level talents. If I'm a team in this situation, I'm taking Anthony Davis over Draymond Green 24/7 and twice on Sundays. IMO, NBA GMs would do the same.

The only reason there are even people arguing in favor of Draymond is because he has had wonderful success with his skillset in the Warriors system. However, that does not mean he would have the exact same success in another system surrounded by other players, and neither does it mean that the Warriors wouldn't have won 2 of the last 3 championships if they had AD instead of Draymond.

Certain advanced stats favor Green, but contextual logic would suggest that AD's advanced stats would most likely be more shiny if he was in the same situation.

Draymond is NOT a better player than Anthony Davis.

Very well said. Green is a really good player when nobody cares about him. Which lets be honest when teams play Warriors they don't game plan for green. I even look at Kevin love has a better player then Green. Love is a better scorer and rebounder neither can be argued. Love is a excellent passer as well hes just not asked to do it much. Love is a poor defender. But Green fits perfect in GS offense because they don't need a scorer they need a passer and defender. Although Love would fit great in GS system also lol.

prodigy
08-02-2017, 09:50 AM
For my Dibs, Green is more valuable then KAT which is what I am referring to. And I have some homer in me but a reasonable one :nod:

Yes Green is wayyyyyy more valuble for the Warriors. Considering kat players for a different team lol

eDush
08-02-2017, 09:51 AM
If u think for a second Green is better then Kat then may god have mercy on ur sports soul lol. I get being a homer, but sometimes you gotta remove the D from ur A.For my Dibs, Green is more valuable then KAT which is what I am referring to. And I have some homer in me but a reasonable one :nod:

Scoots
08-02-2017, 09:52 AM
I would lean towards Dray but it depends on the team and glad I am in no position to make such decisions. I would trade the entire front court Dubs roster for KAT besides Dray right now but that's not saying much lol

You know the front court includes KD right?

tredigs
08-02-2017, 10:27 AM
on a team that is in need of scoring from a so called top 10 player, yes, it would matter that he isn't an efficient scorer. He was able to completely ignore scoring this past year, to concentrate on other things. That wouldn't be the case on many other teams. Prior year, when he with "less talent", he was still with the 2 greatest shooters in the game, and had PLENTY of freedom. He wasn't exactly on my Wolves for example.

Look, there are probably countless examples of all time greats who would be viewed much worse, and countless examples of forgotten players that would be considered much better, if their rosters where different. Green is not a player we can just toss on any team or situation, and he is elite. Not like a Steph Curry, KD, Leonard, etc.

His defensive impact likely drops if he is shouldered with more scoring/playmaking responsibility. He is another example in the list of many that benefit exponentially from a roster that makes up his deficiencies, and promotes his efficiencies.

He's not ever going to be your go-to scorer, that is the point. He provides essentially everything else you want out of a big (and much more), the scoring onus has to be outsourced. I could not disagree more that he would not make every team significantly better (you can put him in a bench role, he would still dominate in that role and bring top-10 level impact). It's surprising to me that of all people you are so ultra-focused on PPG and see that as a hang up, especially concerning a versatile big (and with how many singularly focused scorers there are in the NBA to fill that role).

Granted, if Draymond Green had the scoring ability of Nikola Jokic, or Jokic had the defense/motor of Green, you would have the best player in the NBA on your hands. As is, he's just ~top 10.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 11:04 AM
He's not ever going to be your go-to scorer, that is the point. He provides essentially everything else you want out of a big (and much more), the scoring onus has to be outsourced. I could not disagree more that he would not make every team significantly better (you can put him in a bench role, he would still dominate in that role and bring top-10 level impact). It's surprising to me that of all people you are so ultra-focused on PPG and see that as a hang up, especially concerning a versatile big (and with how many singularly focused scorers there are in the NBA to fill that role).

Granted, if Draymond Green had the scoring ability of Nikola Jokic, or Jokic had the defense/motor of Green, you would have the best player in the NBA on your hands. As is, he's just ~top 10.

then you can't start a team with Draymond Green. Hence why I won't put him as the elite of the elite. Meaning, you can start with KAT moving forward. There are certain skillsets you MUST have to be a guy that fits anywhere, anytime.

Green will make any team better. I would never argue that. In fact, he is exactly the type of player you WANT next to superstars. Doesn't care if he gets a shot, does all the dirty work, etc. But there is a name for those types, and it isn't superstar.

When I read someone say he is the best PF, I say no. Anthony Davis anyday over Green for me.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 11:06 AM
I think there's a general flaw in the way people compare players, and it leads to statements such as, "Draymond over any other PF".

A team starts off with zero superstar talent. It's hard to acquire that 1st superstar, let alone pair him with other superstar/all-star level talents. If I'm a team in this situation, I'm taking Anthony Davis over Draymond Green 24/7 and twice on Sundays. IMO, NBA GMs would do the same.

The only reason there are even people arguing in favor of Draymond is because he has had wonderful success with his skillset in the Warriors system. However, that does not mean he would have the exact same success in another system surrounded by other players, and neither does it mean that the Warriors wouldn't have won 2 of the last 3 championships if they had AD instead of Draymond.

Certain advanced stats favor Green, but contextual logic would suggest that AD's advanced stats would most likely be more shiny if he was in the same situation.

Draymond is NOT a better player than Anthony Davis.
Green is better than AD in many ways, and again while he will never be your #1 option offensively, he can very easily be the best player on far better teams than AD has led. He is a far better, more dynamic defender (IE ability to switch/rotate back with much more ease), he is a far better playmaker, and his motor/health blows AD out of the water (there is no more important fact/attribute). AD will give you more PPG and has proven to be able to be the best player on a team that has never won a playoff game. So there is that. But I'd much rather have the defensive minded monster with floor running/playmaking ability that can stretch to 3pt land and you can trust to stay on the court. Green is certainly in a great spot, but we're conveniently ignoring the fact that no other big in the NBA could fill his role better than he can, including AD. I think he is the #1 big you would want in the NBA to turn a very good team into a contender/champion. That would go for the Warriors, Cavs, Celtics, Rockets, Raptors, Wizards, Thunder, Bucks, etc imo. Essentially every good/great team in the NBA, I'm taking Draymond over every other big.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 11:08 AM
then you can't start a team with Draymond Green. Hence why I won't put him as the elite of the elite. Meaning, you can start with KAT moving forward. There are certain skillsets you MUST have to be a guy that fits anywhere, anytime.

Green will make any team better. I would never argue that. In fact, he is exactly the type of player you WANT next to superstars. Doesn't care if he gets a shot, does all the dirty work, etc. But there is a name for those types, and it isn't superstar.

When I read someone say he is the best PF, I say no. Anthony Davis anyday over Green for me.

If you need to start with a premier scorer, fair enough. I don't. With AD the Pels are going into year 6 and have made the playoffs once/were swept. I would rather have the much more flexible, dynamic, reliable, impactful force and find the scoring in other ways.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 11:14 AM
Hmm, maybe the best way for me to put it- I would take Green over nearly any other star if I need a piece to finish off building a contender. But I am not starting one with him...

make sense Tre?

tredigs
08-02-2017, 11:35 AM
Hmm, maybe the best way for me to put it- I would take Green over nearly any other star if I need a piece to finish off building a contender. But I am not starting one with him...

make sense Tre?

I understand your logic, I just don't necessarily subscribe to it in this scenario. Draymond is sort of a "unicorn" when it comes to his skill set and how replicable his impact is. AD's going to give you 24-28 PPG (essentially all inside the arc) on solid but not amazing efficiency. It's the level of scoring we've seen out of Cousins, Carmelo, K Love, etc. We know we need a ton more for a team to win (as AD has also shown us).

If I could trust AD to stay healthy and knew his defense could be ~10% better, I would be much less reluctant to shy away from him here. But as is, give me the ultra dynamic defensive big who can run the floor and dish out 7APG and hit 39% from three in the playoffs - over his last 40 games - on high volume if left to shoot (and while most teams don't have GS's shooting to be sure, most teams now have enough shooting that they would take the risk with Draymond). He's just a player that ultimately does more and scares me more if I'm the opposition (again, despite him not being a serious threat as a scorer, but there is no team where I don't think that's the case. It's not like he'd be asked to be. Think Gobert on Utah).

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 11:53 AM
I understand your logic, I just don't necessarily subscribe to it in this scenario. Draymond is sort of a "unicorn" when it comes to his skill set and how replicable his impact is. AD's going to give you 24-28 PPG (essentially all inside the arc) on solid but not amazing efficiency. It's the level of scoring we've seen out of Cousins, Carmelo, K Love, etc. We know we need a ton more for a team to win (as AD has also shown us).

If I could trust AD to stay healthy and knew his defense could be ~10% better, I would be much less reluctant to shy away from him here. But as is, give me the ultra dynamic defensive big who can run the floor and dish out 7APG and hit 39% from three in the playoffs - over his last 40 games - on high volume if left to shoot (and while most teams don't have GS's shooting to be sure, most teams now have enough shooting that they would take the risk with Draymond). He's just a player that ultimately does more and scares me more if I'm the opposition (again, despite him not being a serious threat as a scorer, but there is no team where I don't think that's the case. It's not like he'd be asked to be. Think Gobert on Utah).

to be fair, hard to gauge how Green would do on a **** team, since as he grew, so did his incredible roster. It's much easier to say a guy's play translates to winning, when he is on a team that has the talent to win, and the players to make up for inefficiencies, and then some.

Green reminds me a bit of Rodman. While Rodman is absolutely necessary to win chips, he isn't the most necessary piece.

prodigy
08-02-2017, 12:19 PM
Green is better than AD in many ways, and again while he will never be your #1 option offensively, he can very easily be the best player on far better teams than AD has led. He is a far better, more dynamic defender (IE ability to switch/rotate back with much more ease), he is a far better playmaker, and his motor/health blows AD out of the water (there is no more important fact/attribute). AD will give you more PPG and has proven to be able to be the best player on a team that has never won a playoff game. So there is that. But I'd much rather have the defensive minded monster with floor running/playmaking ability that can stretch to 3pt land and you can trust to stay on the court. Green is certainly in a great spot, but we're conveniently ignoring the fact that no other big in the NBA could fill his role better than he can, including AD. I think he is the #1 big you would want in the NBA to turn a very good team into a contender/champion. That would go for the Warriors, Cavs, Celtics, Rockets, Raptors, Wizards, Thunder, Bucks, etc imo. Essentially every good/great team in the NBA, I'm taking Draymond over every other big.

I never understood homers. I love the cavs, browns and Indians those are my teams. but i never understood falling in love with players to the point you become blind. Im sorry but the lack of knowledge someone has to say Green is better then AD is incredible. Green is great for a system. Its not like he makes elite passes, dude dishes to the 3 best shooters in the NBA lmao! I can avg 8 assist in the NBA on GS no lie i truly believe that. I believe anyone who has decent handles could.

he is not a top 2 option on any elite teams. He's a grinder and a hustle player. Every team would love to have him. But you don't build around green. He's a piece you add that can help you.

I understand hes a member on GS and you love him. Thats great. But common lol.

prodigy
08-02-2017, 12:23 PM
If green is in ur top 10 can i see ur list please?

Vee-Rex
08-02-2017, 12:26 PM
Green is better than AD in many ways, and again while he will never be your #1 option offensively,

Offense is the most important part of the game for an individual player. You can't really just dismiss it as, "he will never be your #1 option offensively" as if it doesn't mean much. That's a BIG deal that is just getting brushed over in every argument that favors Draymond Green.


He is a far better, more dynamic defender (IE ability to switch/rotate back with much more ease), he is a far better playmaker, and his motor/health blows AD out of the water (there is no more important fact/attribute).


Indeed, he is a better and more dynamic defender (AD isn't a bad defender, though). He is also a better playmaker and tends to be more healthy.

But let me raise this question: Just how much would Draymond Green be able to maintain his elite defense if he played on a team where he was the only legit superstar? How much would the load of carrying his team impact his defensive ability on a nightly basis? Can we reasonably conclude that he might be a slightly worse defender as a result of all the burden?

I think it's fair to draw that conclusion.

Now how much BETTER would AD's defense be if he had Steph, KD, and Klay to carry the offensive load? How much BETTER could he focus his energy and attention to the defensive end?

Also, I think it would be reasonable to conclude that AD would be a decent play-maker for a big man if he were on the Warriors. He played point guard in high school before his enormous growth spurt. He's one of the quickest 6'10 big men in the league and he's able to dominate with his speed and first step.

As far as durability goes, keep in mind that AD has never ever had a major injury. It has all been minor mishaps. He has missed games at the end of more than one season just because of minor/non-serious injuries (Pels completely shut him down at the end of the 2014 season because of back spasms, as an example). He's nowhere as durable as Green, who is built like a bowling ball, but his missed games count isn't a true indication of his own durability.

AD has played on a crap team for most of his career, and that crap team has been plagued by injuries. It's inevitable that the Pels would handle AD with kiddy gloves and shut him down often just to be cautious.

Swap Green and AD and I'd bet everything I own that AD would see an enormous boost in advanced statistics and his defense + playmaking would be noticeably better than what it is now. For the majority of his career AD saw nothing but double teams, he'd annihilate defenses with the amount of space he'd have in the Warriors offense.



AD will give you more PPG and has proven to be able to be the best player on a team that has never won a playoff game. So there is that. But I'd much rather have the defensive minded monster with floor running/playmaking ability that can stretch to 3pt land and you can trust to stay on the court. Green is certainly in a great spot, but we're conveniently ignoring the fact that no other big in the NBA could fill his role better than he can, including AD.


I hear you and I agree that no other big could fit his role better. I'm not diminishing what Green is - he's a top 10-15 player, depending on who is giving the ranking. I'm only nit-picking when it comes to comparing him to AD.

prodigy
08-02-2017, 12:27 PM
But let me raise this question: Just how much would Draymond Green be able to maintain his elite defense if he played on a team where he was the only legit superstar? How much would the load of carrying his team impact his defensive ability on a nightly basis? Can we reasonably conclude that he might be a slightly worse defender as a result of all the burden?

Bam! Green has a great job with GS. Roam around and focus ur energy on defense. Throw passes to 3 best shooters the NBA has to offer maybe ever. Then hey hit open dunks and shots from time to time. I'm not saying this to take anything away from green. Its still the NBA and he needs to bring it every night.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 12:40 PM
I think where you guys fall short in comprehending just how impactful Green is (and why stats like BPM/VORP/RPM coincidentally always have him near the top of their leaderboards) is that you simply over-value scoring (it's extremely important, but as a big specifically there are MANY things that are extremely important) and in concurrence with that often relate offense to simply PPG. If you're looking for me to defend Draymond as your #1 or #2 option, it's not going to happen. But put him on a team with scoring threats like say the level of love/Kyrie and not only will that team be very good (ignore the fact that Love/Green play the same position for the most part and focus on the scoring load), but Green will be their most impactful player. Stop focusing on PPG. Draymond is a far better player than a Demar Derozan, PPG be damned. Gobert was the Jazz best player last season despite not being their #1 option or even an All Star. You have to be able to get over that hurdle for this debate to work. On another team he still would not be their #1 option, and I have no reason to believe he would not have just as much impact. "But he'd be so tired!". No, he wouldn't. He would not be shouldering the scoring load, and he already has a greater motor than 99.9% of the players in this game (Westbrook and Jimmy Butler are the only two players that come to mind with higher motors day in/day out than Green), so it's a terrible narrative to begin with.

Underrating how smart of a passer he is is a mistake. It's why I often bring up the Rockets series without Curry (or KD obviously) 2 years ago where Klay shouldered the scoring load and Draymond was easily the teams best player en route to an easy 5 game victory (with multiple huge blowouts... they couldn't compete with the Warriors with Green as their best player, period).

I understand that many can't grasp how good he is and that the Warriors dominance serves as a nice scapegoat for simply irrationally undermining his dominance (rather than realizing that much of their dominance is precisely because of him), but rest assure, many stats understand it, and those with a high BBIQ who watch him every game fully understand it.

Vee-Rex
08-02-2017, 12:55 PM
Essentially what you're saying is: Green + #1 option +#2 option is better than AD.

That's your entire argument.

Edit: I mean, I can easily do the same in return to cover up for AD as well.

AD + #1 defender + #1 play-maker is better than Green.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 01:03 PM
Essentially what you're saying is: Green + #1 option +#2 option is better than AD.

That's your entire argument.

Edit: I mean, I can easily do the same in return to cover up for AD as well.

AD + #1 defender + #1 play-maker is better than Green.

No, what I'm saying is that Draymond provides more towards winning basketball than Anthony Davis. Though again, with AD in particular he is so good that if I could trust his health (I can't) and his defense 10%+ more (I can't), I would pause. And while it is certainly possible (far from given) that with a lesser work load scoring wise, he could improve in his defensive prowess, it would take a lot more than energy to catch up to what Draymond brings on that end (and by default you're losing some of his scoring edge).

Is it shocking to you guys that a player that you hold in such high regard has never won a playoff game in his career, going on year 6 now (peaking as a 45 win team as his only season over 34 wins)? Because it is not to me. I'd rather find a replacement for AD's ~25 PPG on ~57.5% TS along with ~15 missed games a year than everything Draymond brings to the table (and essentially 0 missed games due to injury). I think you're in a much better situation to win choosing to build around the perennial DPOY candidate/winner with the skill-set that is about as unique as any big who has ever played the game. I see no reason why he would not fit with any player in any scheme (not just fit, drastically improve), and that alone is an invaluable asset to have on your team as a building block. The Warriors are lucky enough to have him as a cornerstone, but not a building block. That's part of the reason why they're one of the best teams in history, but not every team needs to reach their level of success to have success, and Draymond could be the most important/impactful guy on a lot of very successful teams. After watching his entire career, I have zero doubt about that.

Vee-Rex
08-02-2017, 01:23 PM
Is it shocking to you guys that a player that you hold in such high regard has never won a playoff game in his career, going on year 6 now (peaking as a 45 win team as his only season over 34 wins)? Because it is not to me.

It's not shocking at all. Who has AD played beside before DMC joined the team? Omer Asik? Tyreke Evans? Utter crap.

The only two players that he has played with who are decent are Eric Gordon (missed a ton of games for the Pels) and Jrue Holiday (missed a ton of games). Even then, he still led them to the playoffs in 2015 and gd-it they SHOULD'VE won game 3 vs. the Warriors if not for some miracle-like BS (with Jrue being hurt the whole series). And NEITHER of Gordon or Holiday are anywhere near the players that Steph and Klay are.

Swap Green and AD, and I have a reeeeeally hard time seeing Green lead the oft-injured Jrue and Eric to the playoffs, let alone getting a playoff win vs. the top 2 seeds in the west.

6 years or not, there's really no grounds for true criticism of AD regarding his lack of playoff appearances and wins. Blame the organization.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 01:32 PM
It's not shocking at all. Who has AD played beside before DMC joined the team? Omer Asik? Tyreke Evans? Utter crap.

The only two players that he has played with who are decent are Eric Gordon (missed a ton of games for the Pels) and Jrue Holiday (missed a ton of games). Even then, he still led them to the playoffs in 2015 and gd-it they SHOULD'VE won game 3 vs. the Warriors if not for some miracle-like BS (with Jrue being hurt the whole series). And NEITHER of Gordon or Holiday are anywhere near the players that Steph and Klay are.

Swap Green and AD, and I have a reeeeeally hard time seeing Green lead the oft-injured Jrue and Eric to the playoffs, let alone getting a playoff win vs. the top 2 seeds in the west.

6 years or not, there's really no grounds for true criticism of AD regarding his lack of playoff appearances and wins. Blame the organization.

Oh, I fully understand they have not built around AD well. No **** AD has not played with a Steph or Klay. He also has never had any success, where as Draymond has been the 2nd best player on a 73 win team and a championship team.

Swap the oft-injured AD with Green and I have a reaaaaaaaly hard team seeing them mesh (defensive versatility is busted open, playmaking is down, tensions for scoring load is up) and them having their same level of success. But focusing on their teams alone is not really the point here. It's about starting anew. And I'm of the (highly minority) position that I would rather trust the unmistakably healthy, incredibly versatile stretch 4 DPOY than AD. Or Cousins. Or KAT. Or Marc Gasol, etc.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 01:35 PM
I think where you guys fall short in comprehending just how impactful Green is (and why stats like BPM/VORP/RPM coincidentally always have him near the top of their leaderboards) is that you simply over-value scoring (it's extremely important, but as a big specifically there are MANY things that are extremely important) and in concurrence with that often relate offense to simply PPG. If you're looking for me to defend Draymond as your #1 or #2 option, it's not going to happen. But put him on a team with scoring threats like say the level of love/Kyrie and not only will that team be very good (ignore the fact that Love/Green play the same position for the most part and focus on the scoring load), but Green will be their most impactful player. Stop focusing on PPG. Draymond is a far better player than a Demar Derozan, PPG be damned. Gobert was the Jazz best player last season despite not being their #1 option or even an All Star. You have to be able to get over that hurdle for this debate to work. On another team he still would not be their #1 option, and I have no reason to believe he would not have just as much impact. "But he'd be so tired!". No, he wouldn't. He would not be shouldering the scoring load, and he already has a greater motor than 99.9% of the players in this game (Westbrook and Jimmy Butler are the only two players that come to mind with higher motors day in/day out than Green), so it's a terrible narrative to begin with.

Underrating how smart of a passer he is is a mistake. It's why I often bring up the Rockets series without Curry (or KD obviously) 2 years ago where Klay shouldered the scoring load and Draymond was easily the teams best player en route to an easy 5 game victory (with multiple huge blowouts... they couldn't compete with the Warriors with Green as their best player, period).

I understand that many can't grasp how good he is and that the Warriors dominance serves as a nice scapegoat for simply irrationally undermining his dominance (rather than realizing that much of their dominance is precisely because of him), but rest assure, many stats understand it, and those with a high BBIQ who watch him every game fully understand it.

but we don't think he would have a superstar impact on a much lesser team. Hiding such a inefficient scorer who does everything else well, is a whole lot easier on GS, than any other roster. Ever.

I go back to Rodman. Same type of impact. His game is perfect for putting a contender over the top, but he could never be a guy you build AROUND. You build WITH guys like Green, and Rodman.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 01:40 PM
It's not shocking at all. Who has AD played beside before DMC joined the team? Omer Asik? Tyreke Evans? Utter crap.

The only two players that he has played with who are decent are Eric Gordon (missed a ton of games for the Pels) and Jrue Holiday (missed a ton of games). Even then, he still led them to the playoffs in 2015 and gd-it they SHOULD'VE won game 3 vs. the Warriors if not for some miracle-like BS (with Jrue being hurt the whole series). And NEITHER of Gordon or Holiday are anywhere near the players that Steph and Klay are.

Swap Green and AD, and I have a reeeeeally hard time seeing Green lead the oft-injured Jrue and Eric to the playoffs, let alone getting a playoff win vs. the top 2 seeds in the west.

6 years or not, there's really no grounds for true criticism of AD regarding his lack of playoff appearances and wins. Blame the organization.

if Green is by far your best player, you are in the lottery in all likelihood. You switch him and Davis, and I don't think the Pels have made the playoffs once. I will say it again, I wouldn't trade KAT straight up for Green. No way.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 01:44 PM
but we don't think he would have a superstar impact on a much lesser team. Hiding such a inefficient scorer who does everything else well, is a whole lot easier on GS, than any other roster. Ever.

I go back to Rodman. Same type of impact. His game is perfect for putting a contender over the top, but he could never be a guy you build AROUND. You build WITH guys like Green, and Rodman.
He's like Rodman if Rodman was a playmaking big who could run the floor, finish in traffic and/or kick it out in stride, and/or pull up from 3. In those regards he is actually highly valuable to an offense and thus much more interchangeable for any team in the game. Granted, Rodman's O-rebounding was highly valuable, although he often gave up on assignments to get his boards. Green is a far more well rounded, better player than Rodman.

And while yes "hiding" his scoring is easier on GS (I don't think it's hidden as he would be about the same on any team as far as his scoring role goes), you're talking about a team that cruises to 67 win seasons. They are SO FAR beyond your average playoff team that I'm not even sure it's worth making that point. Specifically as he is a massive reason why they are so far ahead. On other teams their offense would not be as good obviously, but he would drastically improve their defense and so long as they had some scorers/shooters and could play as a team, he would also be an addition to their offense. Health aside, we don't have to go too far into the fact that Draymond is a flat out die-hard competitor and DEMANDS the most out of his teammates (I have never seen this from the likes of AD, Towns, Cousins, etc), but it is a reality and a very integral part of what it means to build a winner around your leader. He's had that rep since high school, continued it through college and now instills it through the Warriors and all their players (famously down to Curry and KD). Most players simply don't have it, Draymond has it. And again, always near the top of the leaderboard in BPM, VORP, RPM. Hint: You won't find that with Kyrie or Love (I know you personally don't like Kyrie, I'm just making a point about "riding coattails" on elite teams here). 6'5" and the 2nd best rim protecting FG% in the game last season. 6.5 APG+ from the PF/C position. B2B2B DPOY or DPOY runner up. All NBA b2b. The stats and accolades go on. The winning goes on. I'm moving on.


if Green is by far your best player, you are in the lottery in all likelihood. You switch him and Davis, and I don't think the Pels have made the playoffs once. I will say it again, I wouldn't trade KAT straight up for Green. No way.
I did not say he had to be "by far" your best player, and I would never build the Pels in the same way around AD as I would around Green, so it's sort of a moot point there. Not exactly the strongest point to suggest that you think he would suck less than AD has sucked, either. But yes, Green could certainly be the best player on many playoff teams in theory. Never a top scoring option, but very often could he be the most impactful.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 02:00 PM
Exactly the type of comparison I made a few pages back.. He is on a Rodman, Ben Wallace, Lamar Odon type of impact to a team. Not top 10 player in the NBA.

Nobody would trade Kat or AD for him. Green on a bad team doesn't impact that team like a Blake Griffin would scoring wise and being a focal point.

Green is a really good role player. As constructed, if there is no Curry or Durant, the Warriors are not a playoff team.

Presumably if KD and Curry went down then they should lose to all playoff teams in this scenario, yes? Yet in 2016 they did not have KD, Curry went down for the series and Draymond was the best player on a court that included Dwight Howard, James Harden and Klay Thompson and they smashed the Rockets head open (last two games being 30 point victories). So, maybe, just maybe you're wrong?

Gibby23
08-02-2017, 02:01 PM
but we don't think he would have a superstar impact on a much lesser team. Hiding such a inefficient scorer who does everything else well, is a whole lot easier on GS, than any other roster. Ever.

I go back to Rodman. Same type of impact. His game is perfect for putting a contender over the top, but he could never be a guy you build AROUND. You build WITH guys like Green, and Rodman.


Exactly the type of comparison I made a few pages back.. He is on a Rodman, Ben Wallace, Lamar Odon type of impact to a team. Not top 10 player in the NBA.

Nobody would trade Kat or AD for him. Green on a bad team doesn't impact that team like a Blake Griffin would scoring wise and being a focal point.

Green is a really good role player. As constructed, if there is no Curry or Durant, the Warriors are not a playoff team.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 02:15 PM
He's like Rodman if Rodman was a playmaking big who could run the floor, finish in traffic and/or kick it out in stride, and/or pull up from 3. In those regards he is actually highly valuable to an offense and thus much more interchangeable for any team in the game. Granted, Rodman's O-rebounding was highly valuable, although he often gave up on assignments to get his boards. Green is a far more well rounded, better player than Rodman.

And while yes "hiding" his scoring is easier on GS (I don't think it's hidden as he would be about the same on any team as far as his scoring role goes), you're talking about a team that cruises to 67 win seasons. They are SO FAR beyond your average playoff team that I'm not even sure it's worth making that point. Specifically as he is a massive reason why they are so far ahead. On other teams their offense would not be as good obviously, but he would drastically improve their defense and so long as they had some scorers/shooters and could play as a team, he would also be an addition to their offense. Health aside, we don't have to go too far into the fact that Draymond is a flat out die-hard competitor and DEMANDS the most out of his teammates (I have never seen this from the likes of AD, Towns, Cousins, etc), but it is a reality and a very integral part of what it means to build a winner around your leader. He's had that rep since high school, continued it through college and now instills it through the Warriors and all their players (famously down to Curry and KD). Most players simply don't have it, Draymond has it. And again, always near the top of the leaderboard in BPM, VORP, RPM. Hint: You won't find that with Kyrie or Love (I know you personally don't like Kyrie, I'm just making a point about "riding coattails" on elite teams here). 6'5" and the 2nd best rim protecting FG% in the game last season. 6.5 APG+ from the PF/C position. B2B2B DPOY or DPOY runner up. All NBA b2b. The stats and accolades go on. The winning goes on. I'm moving on.


I did not say he had to be "by far" your best player, and I would never build the Pels in the same way around AD as I would around Green, so it's sort of a moot point there. Not exactly the strongest point to suggest that you think he would suck less than AD has sucked, either. But yes, Green could certainly be the best player on many playoff teams in theory. Never a top scoring option, but very often could he be the most impactful.

the Rodman comparison is an impact comparison. Meaning, he is a huge player, IF you simply need a complimentary piece to a star or 2. Green isn't the defender/rebounder Rodman was, they kind of offset each other impact wise imo.

In order for Green to be the best player on a playoff team, we would need to be talking about a bottom playoff team, or a team that had an obscure level of "very good" players (think Atlanta a few years back with Milisap). Him, as the best player by a wide margin (think AD and the Pels), are in the lottery, without a doubt.

Gibby23
08-02-2017, 02:16 PM
Presumably if KD and Curry went down then they should lose to all playoff teams in this scenario, yes? Yet in 2016 they did not have KD, Curry went down for the series and Draymond was the best player on a court that included Dwight Howard, James Harden and Klay Thompson and they smashed the Rockets head open (last two games being 30 point victories). So, maybe, just maybe you're wrong?

They were deeper, Had Barnes and bogut. Dray and Klay aint getting to the playoffs as the 2 main guys playing 82 games.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 02:18 PM
Exactly the type of comparison I made a few pages back.. He is on a Rodman, Ben Wallace, Lamar Odon type of impact to a team. Not top 10 player in the NBA.

Nobody would trade Kat or AD for him. Green on a bad team doesn't impact that team like a Blake Griffin would scoring wise and being a focal point.

Green is a really good role player. As constructed, if there is no Curry or Durant, the Warriors are not a playoff team.

agree completely. It's not that I don't think Green is a fantastic player. I would put him over Odom btw, but yes, Wallace/Rodman is exactly what he is. Those guys on contenders are crazy impact players. Take away the ability to hide their inefficiencies, and they are not guys you can build around.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 02:21 PM
They were deeper, Had Barnes and bogut. Dray and Klay aint getting to the playoffs as the 2 main guys playing 82 games.

LOL Barnes and Bogut. Barnes stepped it up to an imposing 8/4/2 on 29% from the field in that series along with his middle of the road D. Bogut offered up 4 and 6 in his 16 mpg. Try again. Specifically when you consider that they lost their MVP/offensive juggernaut after 1 half and that in a fairy-tale scenario where he was not on the team, that roster is taken up by another starting PG rather than Shaun Livingston. A team built around Draymond and Klay as their best player (Klay the clear top scorer, Draymond the clear best player) could absolutely work beautifully and rival many of the teams in this league. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise man.


agree completely. It's not that I don't think Green is a fantastic player. I would put him over Odom btw, but yes, Wallace/Rodman is exactly what he is. Those guys on contenders are crazy impact players. Take away the ability to hide their inefficiencies, and they are not guys you can build around.

Wake me up when those guys are running the floor, facilitating an offense and hitting 3's along with their DPOY impact. Granted, I do think Wallace was the best player on a championship team when they won it. He brought more impact than Chauncey IMO, even with essentially all of it being on the defensive end (Far from the case with Green).

eDush
08-02-2017, 02:38 PM
I stopped being a loyal fan of teams and I just follow the people I find interesting, players, coaches, executives. This change was inspired by the Bulls miserable 2012 offseason and everything that followed with the final nail in the coffin being Thibs unwarranted firing. I wrote somewhere on here that the Bulls would not be getting my money anymore as I realized it makes no sense to be loyal to a business that isnt employing me.

Instead I've spent that money to take trips to see other teams in other cities, like the 2015 Warriors in Milwaukee, the Thibs coached Twolves vs the Rose led Knicks in NY, and Anthony Davis in New Orleans.

Very happy with my decision
You should hang out with eDush:no: he support the wrong side of ChiTown instead my Cubs on the North Side otherwise we would be the best of buddies :hi5:

Gibby23
08-02-2017, 02:45 PM
LOL Barnes and Bogut. Barnes stepped it up to an imposing 8/4/2 on 29% from the field in that series along with his middle of the road D. Bogut offered up 4 and 6 in his 16 mpg. Try again. Specifically when you consider that they lost their MVP/offensive juggernaut after 1 half and that in a fairy-tale scenario where he was not on the team, that roster is taken up by another starting PG rather than Shaun Livingston. A team built around Draymond and Klay as their best player (Klay the clear top scorer, Draymond the clear best player) could absolutely work beautifully and rival many of the teams in this league. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise man.



Wake me up when those guys are running the floor, facilitating an offense and hitting 3's along with their DPOY impact. Granted, I do think Wallace was the best player on a championship team when they won it. He brought more impact than Chauncey IMO, even with essentially all of it being on the defensive end (Far from the case with Green).

You act like it is a huge sample size. No team game plans for Dray or how to stop him. No team tries to take him away. He is the guy teams live or die with and try and focus on KD and Steph. If Dray was the main option and teams keyed in on him, he would go from looking great on a great team to looking overrated on a bad team.

Gibby23
08-02-2017, 02:47 PM
agree completely. It's not that I don't think Green is a fantastic player. I would put him over Odom btw, but yes, Wallace/Rodman is exactly what he is. Those guys on contenders are crazy impact players. Take away the ability to hide their inefficiencies, and they are not guys you can build around.
Yeah, more of an impact than Odom. Maybe a Celtics Rondo with the big 3. A great complimentary piece on a championship team.

Hawkeye15
08-02-2017, 02:55 PM
LOL Barnes and Bogut. Barnes stepped it up to an imposing 8/4/2 on 29% from the field in that series along with his middle of the road D. Bogut offered up 4 and 6 in his 16 mpg. Try again. Specifically when you consider that they lost their MVP/offensive juggernaut after 1 half and that in a fairy-tale scenario where he was not on the team, that roster is taken up by another starting PG rather than Shaun Livingston. A team built around Draymond and Klay as their best player (Klay the clear top scorer, Draymond the clear best player) could absolutely work beautifully and rival many of the teams in this league. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise man.



Wake me up when those guys are running the floor, facilitating an offense and hitting 3's along with their DPOY impact. Granted, I do think Wallace was the best player on a championship team when they won it. He brought more impact than Chauncey IMO, even with essentially all of it being on the defensive end (Far from the case with Green).

Rodman/Green aren't literally the same player, I am saying they bring the same impact. To me they do. Both integral parts of a winning formula, but absolutely no way you build AROUND them.

I think at this point you have heard enough of my opinion. Lord knows I have typed enough of it..

tredigs
08-02-2017, 03:08 PM
You act like it is a huge sample size. No team game plans for Dray or how to stop him. No team tries to take him away. He is the guy teams live or die with and try and focus on KD and Steph. If Dray was the main option and teams keyed in on him, he would go from looking great on a great team to looking overrated on a bad team.
You act like it's irrelevant. Along with on/off and missed games from Curry here and there, it's what we have, and he always seems to come through. You can't game-plan or stop a man who is not actively trying to score. He's game-planning for you. He takes what is given scoring wise, and creates more for others by being able to commonly outwork his opposing big on offense (he just leverages that advantage primarily in a playmaking role more than looking to score... playing to his strengths). Defensively he makes life hell on everyone. Everyone.


Rodman/Green aren't literally the same player, I am saying they bring the same impact. To me they do. Both integral parts of a winning formula, but absolutely no way you build AROUND them.

I think at this point you have heard enough of my opinion. Lord knows I have typed enough of it..

Haha. Touche' I feel the same. A good ol' fashioned "agree to disagree" as it pertains to certain stars (and I fully understand why many would feel more comfortable with AD). Ultimately my take is that while Draymond would certainly not be my first choice to build around, you could be imaginative and create a HIGHLY potent team with him as your 1st pick/best player in a mock-draft (much more so than a Rodman IMO). Much more potent than you could if you chose any number of current "#1 options" ahead of him.

PC
08-02-2017, 03:16 PM
I actually think Green's abilities compare well to a young Igudola. Obviously some differences between the two but the similarities are there.

Gibby23
08-02-2017, 03:20 PM
You act like it's irrelevant. Along with on/off and missed games from Curry here and there, it's what we have, and he always seems to come through. You can't game-plan or stop a man who is not actively trying to score. He's game-planning for you. He takes what is given scoring wise, and creates more for others by being able to commonly outwork his opposing big on offense (he just leverages that advantage primarily in a playmaking role more than looking to score... playing to his strengths). Defensively he makes life hell on everyone. Everyone.



Haha. Touche' I feel the same. A good ol' fashioned "agree to disagree" as it pertains to certain stars (and I fully understand why many would feel more comfortable with AD). Ultimately my take is that while Draymond would certainly not be my first choice to build around, you could be imaginative and create a HIGHLY potent team with him as your 1st pick/best player in a mock-draft (much more so than a Rodman IMO). Much more potent than you could if you chose any number of current "#1 options" ahead of him.

False, you can still trap and double. Also, he would have to activly try and score if he is your best player. If Lebron had to only focus on guarding Dray, Dray wouldn't be able to do much. Take away 2 of the best shooters in the history of the game the last few years and replace them with average shooters and Dray is this good.

Nobody is building a team around Dray. No GM would ever build a team around Dray no matter how good you think he is.

FlashBolt
08-02-2017, 08:11 PM
Who's arguing that Draymond is someone to build around with? He'd get wrecked if you stick him on a bad team like the Kings. He'd have so many technicals dealing with all the losing that he would have gone to prison.. face it, Warriors needed Draymond just as much as Draymond needed them.

tredigs
08-02-2017, 08:46 PM
Here, I'll make Draymond the best player/leader on a contender in 10 seconds or less.

Warriors minus Curry and Durant. Throw in Kyrie and Gordon Hayward.

Kyrie / Livingston
Klay / McCaw
Hayward / Iguodala / Casspi
Green / West
Zaza / Green / McGee

Tadaaa

Scoots
08-02-2017, 09:12 PM
You act like it is a huge sample size. No team game plans for Dray or how to stop him. No team tries to take him away. He is the guy teams live or die with and try and focus on KD and Steph. If Dray was the main option and teams keyed in on him, he would go from looking great on a great team to looking overrated on a bad team.

I don't buy into this whole "Dray would be a star on any team" thing ... but teams have schemed for Dray on the Warriors. The Cavs did it in the finals.

Allphakenny1
08-02-2017, 09:14 PM
The thing is, Draymond is in the perfect system/position on the Warriors and allowed to shine in his own way. However, he can be the best player on a championship team. The team just has to be perfectly built around him, but how many players in the league can be the best player on a championship team without that team being perfectly constructed around them? 4 or 5?

Not sure who was the best player on that Pistons championship team, Wallace or Billiup (or other I guess), but a team like that would allow Green to win a championship as the best player. I know that team was special, but those teams exist all the time. The Hawks a few years ago were already mentioned, and what about this current Celtics team? Swap Green for a big like Horford and that team is in the eastern conference finals with Cleveland. With all the Cleveland drama right now, they could possibly beat them. Who would be the best player on that team? Green, Hayward, Thomas, Crowder? I take Green over any of those players in terms of overall impact.

While I agree no GM would take Green over AD (better #1 option) or KAT (higher potential), that does not mean a GM cannot build around Green as the top player. The thing is some people are saying Green cannot be the top player on a playoff team, and I think he could actually be the top player on a championship team. Yes it has to be perfectly build around him, but not many players can win a championship without a team perfectly built around them.

Finally, I just want to say that I would take Green over Blake Griffin regardless of the team. Maybe Griffin having his own team this year will change my mind, but right here right now, I take Green.

Allphakenny1
08-02-2017, 09:23 PM
Also, I posted this in another thread, but why has someone not started the best players in the league threads? You guys are literally discussing who is better stuff in multiple threads, so why not do it? I would love to see where guys like Green, KAT, Irving etc. end up this year. Please, someone who knows what the hell they are doing start it up.

Saddletramp
08-02-2017, 09:54 PM
Here, I'll make Draymond the best player/leader on a contender in 10 seconds or less.

Warriors minus Curry and Durant. Throw in Kyrie and Gordon Hayward.

Kyrie / Livingston
Klay / McCaw
Hayward / Iguodala / Casspi
Green / West
Zaza / Green / McGee

Tadaaa

Lol. Hot take there.

Scoots
08-02-2017, 10:10 PM
This part of the offseason sucks. I check this site like 15 times a day and all the discussions seem to be going nowhere :)

tredigs
08-02-2017, 10:39 PM
The thing is, Draymond is in the perfect system/position on the Warriors and allowed to shine in his own way. However, he can be the best player on a championship team. The team just has to be perfectly built around him, but how many players in the league can be the best player on a championship team without that team being perfectly constructed around them? 4 or 5?

Not sure who was the best player on that Pistons championship team, Wallace or Billiup (or other I guess), but a team like that would allow Green to win a championship as the best player. I know that team was special, but those teams exist all the time. The Hawks a few years ago were already mentioned, and what about this current Celtics team? Swap Green for a big like Horford and that team is in the eastern conference finals with Cleveland. With all the Cleveland drama right now, they could possibly beat them. Who would be the best player on that team? Green, Hayward, Thomas, Crowder? I take Green over any of those players in terms of overall impact.

While I agree no GM would take Green over AD (better #1 option) or KAT (higher potential), that does not mean a GM cannot build around Green as the top player. The thing is some people are saying Green cannot be the top player on a playoff team, and I think he could actually be the top player on a championship team. Yes it has to be perfectly build around him, but not many players can win a championship without a team perfectly built around them.

Finally, I just want to say that I would take Green over Blake Griffin regardless of the team. Maybe Griffin having his own team this year will change my mind, but right here right now, I take Green.

I agree with this general sentiment, and would say that the team would not even have to be "perfectly" built for Draymond to be the best player on a contender. You'd need two guys capable of ~18-20+ PPG (there were 40 of them that pulled this off last year) while playing team ball, a solid 3/D guy (never has there been more abundance of this), and a good bench. Let's say...

PG: Mike Conley
SG: Klay Thompson
SF: Trevor Ariza
PF: Draymond Green
C: Robin Lopez

+ a solid bench of say Livingston, E Gordon and Taj Gibson.

That team would be a force. I don't think they win it all but they're a strong playoff team who with the Warriors disbanded (since we're taking some of their players) would make a run at it. So while yes, Draymond's best position is to be the guy who makes a good team a great team or a great team a legendary team, he could absolutely be the leader and most impactful all around player on a team in the thick of it in May.

"Draymond on the Kings would get exposed". Lol. So, they would be terrible just like they were with their 26 and 12 All Star center the past 9 seasons? Is that the guy you build around? I'll take my chances with the guy who has the skill set no other big can duplicate.

Gibby23
08-03-2017, 01:45 AM
Shawn Marion from age 24 to age 28 was a better player than Draymond has been these past few years.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2017, 09:36 AM
You act like it is a huge sample size. No team game plans for Dray or how to stop him. No team tries to take him away. He is the guy teams live or die with and try and focus on KD and Steph. If Dray was the main option and teams keyed in on him, he would go from looking great on a great team to looking overrated on a bad team.

that is literally the point I have tried to make.

tredigs
08-03-2017, 12:56 PM
that is literally the point I have tried to make.
And my whole point has been that everything he does is essentially immune to game planning as he is never looking to be the go to scorer, regardless of his position as "best player" or not. Not sure why we are not seeing the to eye on that or where the hold up is in that logic. #1 option on offense does NOT have to be your best, most impactful player/leader. It caps his potential to be sure, but what he does offer regardless still does more to help your team win (and this would go for every team) than all but maybe 10 guys in the NBA. THAT is my point.

Gibby23
08-03-2017, 01:31 PM
And my whole point has been that everything he does is essentially immune to game planning as he is never looking to be the go to scorer, regardless of his position as "best player" or not. Not sure why we are not seeing the to eye on that or where the hold up is in that logic. #1 option on offense does NOT have to be your best, most impactful player/leader. It caps his potential to be sure, but what he does offer regardless still does more to help your team win (and this would go for every team) than all but maybe 10 guys in the NBA. THAT is my point.

Even the team you made up with Mike Conley. Mike is the best player on that team and Dray and Klay are close 2nds.

Do a simple swap of Blake for Draymond on the Clippers as they are. Dray wouldn't make more of an impact than Blake and the Clippers would probably win less games with Draymond as the best player on that team as opposed to how it is now with Blake Griffin.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2017, 05:01 PM
It's easy to be immune for game planning when nobody game plans for you.

tredigs
08-03-2017, 05:44 PM
Even the team you made up with Mike Conley. Mike is the best player on that team and Dray and Klay are close 2nds.

Do a simple swap of Blake for Draymond on the Clippers as they are. Dray wouldn't make more of an impact than Blake and the Clippers would probably win less games with Draymond as the best player on that team as opposed to how it is now with Blake Griffin.

Ehhhhh on both of those. For one you have two high injury risk players - and Dray's impact certainly bodes out higher than Conley and Blake on most metrics, and I don't even think they do him full justice defensively. I do think Blake would have more success (at full health - extremely rare) in leading a middling to pretty solid team, but Draymond's all around game is far more conducive to winning at the highest level.

@Hawk. Exactly? He's not a go-to scorer, I think we established that pretty clearly. That's not where his worth is forged.

Long story short - he is clearly still heavily, heavily underrated, despite many stats proving otherwise. It's interesting to see.

Gibby23
08-03-2017, 06:00 PM
Ehhhhh on both of those. For one you have two high injury risk players - and Dray's impact certainly bodes out higher than Conley and Blake on most metrics, and I don't even think they do him full justice defensively. I do think Blake would have more success (at full health - extremely rare) in leading a middling to pretty solid team, but Draymond's all around game is far more conducive to winning at the highest level.

@Hawk. Exactly? He's not a go-to scorer, I think we established that pretty clearly. That's not where his worth is forged.

Long story short - he is clearly still heavily, heavily underrated, despite many stats proving otherwise. It's interesting to see.

What stats? He isn't a top 10 player. Maybe top 12 to 15. Stats paint Conley as better, not all but most do. Also, if Blake would have a bigger impact than Dray on the current Clippers team, what exactly are you trying to argue? He isn't a good enough scorer to lead an average team like the Clippers to more wins than Blake would. If you are the best player, you better be able to get buckets. He isn't a PG and the more the higher his usage gets the less productive he will probably be. He carries a usage rate of like 17%, if he gets the the 25% range his flaws will be exposed way more. He is in no way a number 1 option or best player on any title contending team.

tredigs
08-03-2017, 07:25 PM
What stats? He isn't a top 10 player. Maybe top 12 to 15. Stats paint Conley as better, not all but most do. Also, if Blake would have a bigger impact than Dray on the current Clippers team, what exactly are you trying to argue? He isn't a good enough scorer to lead an average team like the Clippers to more wins than Blake would. If you are the best player, you better be able to get buckets. He isn't a PG and the more the higher his usage gets the less productive he will probably be. He carries a usage rate of like 17%, if he gets the the 25% range his flaws will be exposed way more. He is in no way a number 1 option or best player on any title contending team.

VORP/BPM/RPM to name a few that he's generally top 10 range at. I'm just regurgitating myself at this point though, which means I'm probably done with this convo. We fundamentally disagree on what it means to be a teams most impactful player and that being a #1 scorer is some necessity to being the best player on your team. He IS better than Klay - I can assure you that. He would NEVER average more PPG than Klay, I can assure you that. Similar to how Gobert was Utah's best player last season (a team that would have pushed 60 wins had they all been as healthy as Gobert), and Green > Gobert to me. A lot more to the game than scoring. Concerning Blake, that's just a team fit issue. That team doesn't have scorers, so they need him in that role. And they'll probably top out at 45 wins IF Blake is healthy (hint: he's not and probably won't be through the season). Absolutely no threat what so ever to contend.

FlashBolt
08-03-2017, 07:51 PM
If you're a non-first option (let alone a 4th/5th option on a team), then your advanced numbers are going to look Godly if your only role is to rebound, defend, and make the easiest assist passes. Let's see how Draymond looks like passing the ball to Andre Roberson or some guy who can't shoot. Let's see how great Draymond's defense is when he's stuck on a team that never cared about defense to begin with. He's great for the Warriors but by and large, he would have had a difficult time being the Draymond we know today had it not been for the Warriors. That's not to say his impact isn't valuable because God knows where Warriors would be if Curry+Klay didn't have Draymond. I just think it's stupid to assume Draymond is better than he really is when there is zero evidence he would be able to carry a below average team. I think there is more than enough evidence he won't be able to carry a below average team, though. He's not that good scoring offensively and he just had a pretty bad NBA Finals (by his own standards) in which everyone forgets because duh, he's the fourth option.

tredigs
08-03-2017, 10:51 PM
Heard it hear first kids. Just be a 4th option and your stats will EXPLODE! It's why all 4th options on great teams consistently dominate in that realm.

Gibby23
08-03-2017, 11:11 PM
Heard it hear first kids. Just be a 4th option and your stats will EXPLODE! It's why all 4th options on great teams consistently dominate in that realm.

I don't know about explode. I mean his defense and passing is great for a PF. Scoring, Rebounding, and shooting % need some work. No reason to shoot 41% when you are wide open.

tredigs
08-03-2017, 11:38 PM
I don't know about explode. I mean his defense and passing is great for a PF. Scoring, Rebounding, and shooting % need some work. No reason to shoot 41% when you are wide open.
Lol. Nice stat picking. Prior seasons? Playoffs? How is 41% from 3 in nearly 5 attempts a game in the post season this year? 39% his last two post seasons at that rate (40 games). He led the league in opponents FG% at the rim. He's 6'5". He screams at KD when he ****s up. Lol. The guy just does nothing but dominate, and I see no end in sight.

Gibby23
08-03-2017, 11:58 PM
Lol. Nice stat picking. Prior seasons? Playoffs? How is 41% from 3 in nearly 5 attempts a game in the post season this year? 39% his last two post seasons at that rate (40 games). He led the league in opponents FG% at the rim. He's 6'5". He screams at KD when he ****s up. Lol. The guy just does nothing but dominate, and I see no end in sight.
I'm Stat picking at an 82 game sample size but you bring up less than a 20 game playoff. Lol

I'll leave it at this. No GM is picking Draymond as the best player on the team or building around him. You might, but nobody else would. And when his contract expires, the Warriors are probably the only team that would pay him a 30 million dollar max.

Gibby23
08-04-2017, 12:12 AM
VORP/BPM/RPM to name a few that he's generally top 10 range at. I'm just regurgitating myself at this point though, which means I'm probably done with this convo. We fundamentally disagree on what it means to be a teams most impactful player and that being a #1 scorer is some necessity to being the best player on your team. He IS better than Klay - I can assure you that. He would NEVER average more PPG than Klay, I can assure you that. Similar to how Gobert was Utah's best player last season (a team that would have pushed 60 wins had they all been as healthy as Gobert), and Green > Gobert to me. A lot more to the game than scoring. Concerning Blake, that's just a team fit issue. That team doesn't have scorers, so they need him in that role. And they'll probably top out at 45 wins IF Blake is healthy (hint: he's not and probably won't be through the season). Absolutely no threat what so ever to contend.

You can't just make stuff up that fits your narrative. Dray is 15 in Vorp, 16 in BPM, and like 3 in RPM. RPM is slanted towards good teams Warriors have 3 in top 10 and even Kevin Love is at 11. Dray isn't a franchise player. Good player on good team but would get exposed with little talent around him.

Gibby23
08-04-2017, 12:15 AM
He has had like 1 season shooting over 45%. Nobody would build around him. Defense is great, but mob8is building around a great PF defender that can switch. Padding is great but if he was the main ball handler he would get exposed. He is too small to average double digit rebounds.

Scoots
08-04-2017, 12:19 AM
And my whole point has been that everything he does is essentially immune to game planning as he is never looking to be the go to scorer, regardless of his position as "best player" or not. Not sure why we are not seeing the to eye on that or where the hold up is in that logic. #1 option on offense does NOT have to be your best, most impactful player/leader. It caps his potential to be sure, but what he does offer regardless still does more to help your team win (and this would go for every team) than all but maybe 10 guys in the NBA. THAT is my point.

But teams have schemed for Draymond. The Cavs defense was focusing on making the draymond pick and roll less effective to the point that the Warriors made significant changes to their offense to get Draymond back into the game.

Gibby23
08-04-2017, 12:22 AM
But teams have schemed for Draymond. The Cavs defense was focusing on making the draymond pick and roll less effective to the point that the Warriors made significant changes to their offense to get Draymond back into the game.
Ok, but it wouldn't be effective without all time great shooters and players around him.

tredigs
08-04-2017, 02:39 AM
Lmfao oh this thread is rich

Saddletramp
08-04-2017, 05:20 AM
Lmfao oh this thread is rich

Yeah, and you're a major reason why.

Some have said that Green on a lesser team isn't as valuable to his team than Anthony Davis is. You start saying that he would be. And you back it up not by making a case for this Pelicans team (or the one you **** on from a few years ago that the Warriors beat) in a straight up Davis for Green trade but by making up a team (that I assume is coached by Kerr and in Oakland) with one of the greatest 3 point shooters ever, the guy with the (formerly) biggest contract in the league (who's no slouch but is just in the same conference as CP3, Westbrook, Curry, Klay, Harden, Parker, etc or he'd have been an allstar by now), a starter on the third best (record wise) team in the league, a serviceable big man (certainly better than who he has now) and a bench of a guy who he's familiar with already, the reigning Sixth Man of the Year and a pretty solid energy backup PF. And then you say that although it's a monster team, it wouldn't be a championship team (it could be, honestly, but we'd have to see where Curry went, if the Cavs adjusted accordingly and to where Durant goes-I'm assuming Cleveland or San Antonio because he'd want the easiest path possible; that's his thing).

Waaaaay out on a limb there, Buster.

And the scenario where you traded Curry and KD for Kyrie and Hayward was worse. Kyrie isn't Curry and Hayward isn't KD, but that's not as big of a downgrade as you're making it out to be. Especially in Kerr's system? Lol.

Not only that, but you keep saying that Draymond led the Warriors over the (8th seed) Rockets who didn't have a legit coach and their top two players couldn't click together any longer. You're making it seem like that Rockets team was this year's Rockets team. And you sound silly doing it.



Look, Green is a killer where he is but on that Pelicans team (minus AD) from a few years back? He wouldn't stand a chance.
I've eye rolled at your dodging and distractions more in this thread than most lately. Good job if that's what you were going for.

Gibby23
08-04-2017, 10:38 AM
Lmfao oh this thread is rich

Why? Because Green was only top 10 in one of the 3 stats you listed? Or because he is not in the top 10 in a lot of stats and metrics? Or because he isn't a top 10 player that cam be the man on a bad team? Or because he shot 41% last year with the most wide open looks of his career?

Chronz
08-04-2017, 04:44 PM
Heres what I want to know because the logic seems *** backwards to me.

Player A VS Player B ok

Player A makes a contender into a historic team, superior to Player B.

Player A makes a playoff team into a legit contender more than player B does.

Player B makes a lotto team into a fringe playoff team more than player B does

Therefore, player B is better?

LMFAO, I know for a fact that DG would have made my favorite team better than Blake has over the past 3-4 years, maybe now that we need him more its debatable but still just debatable. Even if Blake were better in that situation, why is that so important?

I take offense to the Rodman comparisons as if Rodman didn't have a claim as his teams most vital player.

Jamiecballer
08-04-2017, 08:07 PM
Oh, I fully understand they have not built around AD well. No **** AD has not played with a Steph or Klay. He also has never had any success, where as Draymond has been the 2nd best player on a 73 win team and a championship team.

Swap the oft-injured AD with Green and I have a reaaaaaaaly hard team seeing them mesh (defensive versatility is busted open, playmaking is down, tensions for scoring load is up) and them having their same level of success. But focusing on their teams alone is not really the point here. It's about starting anew. And I'm of the (highly minority) position that I would rather trust the unmistakably healthy, incredibly versatile stretch 4 DPOY than AD. Or Cousins. Or KAT. Or Marc Gasol, etc.You are not alone by any means. I would as well.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
08-04-2017, 08:17 PM
Heres what I want to know because the logic seems *** backwards to me.

Player A VS Player B ok

Player A makes a contender into a historic team, superior to Player B.

Player A makes a playoff team into a legit contender more than player B does.

Player B makes a lotto team into a fringe playoff team more than player B does

Therefore, player B is better?

LMFAO, I know for a fact that DG would have made my favorite team better than Blake has over the past 3-4 years, maybe now that we need him more its debatable but still just debatable. Even if Blake were better in that situation, why is that so important?

I take offense to the Rodman comparisons as if Rodman didn't have a claim as his teams most vital player.Great points

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Hawkeye15
08-04-2017, 08:45 PM
Why would you take offense to the Rodman comparison? Are you saying he is less replaceable than Zeke, Or Pippen for instance?

You don't start a team with Green or Rodman. You finish the puzzle with them.

tredigs
08-04-2017, 09:09 PM
Why? Because Green was only top 10 in one of the 3 stats you listed? Or because he is not in the top 10 in a lot of stats and metrics? Or because he isn't a top 10 player that cam be the man on a bad team? Or because he shot 41% last year with the most wide open looks of his career?

Was not responding to you in particular, just some of the sentiments I was seeing. concerning his stats that I said he was consistently among the league leaders, he was top 10 in RPM each of the last 3 seasons, top 10 in BPM and Win Shares in 2016, and top 10 in VORP in 15 And 16. He was also top 10 in rebounds in 16 and top 10 in Assists per game the prior 2 seasons. Led the league in steals per game last year And has been top 5 in Defensive Box +/-, D rating And D win shares the past 3 seasons.

And All NBA the prior 2 seasons as well as top 10 in MVP voting in 16 + current DPOY. He is a top 10 player in the NBA.

Chronz
08-04-2017, 11:23 PM
Why would you take offense to the Rodman comparison? Are you saying he is less replaceable than Zeke, Or Pippen for instance?

You don't start a team with Green or Rodman. You finish the puzzle with them.

Because its possible that Rodman had a greater impact than even Zeke. You can build a team a variety of ways, what if one player leads to more wins?

Chronz
08-04-2017, 11:26 PM
You guys really dont know what Tre means by outsourcing his scoring do you? Its really not that hard to replace scoring when the comparison is a DPOY with a decent offensive game to boot. Could be wrong but its just a thought , why is scoring THAT valuable in your opinion?

Scoots
08-04-2017, 11:34 PM
You guys really dont know what Tre means by outsourcing his scoring do you? Its really not that hard to replace scoring when the comparison is a DPOY with a decent offensive game to boot. Could be wrong but its just a thought , why is scoring THAT valuable in your opinion?

Tradition is my guess.

FlashBolt
08-05-2017, 12:51 AM
Heard it hear first kids. Just be a 4th option and your stats will EXPLODE! It's why all 4th options on great teams consistently dominate in that realm.

Lol, no one agrees with you because it's obvious to everyone Draymond is simply an enhancing player and not a primary one. You should really be thankful that Draymond is that good and is a fourth option on the Warriors. Not sure why you're always so upset about everything. The way you type even shows just how much of a egomaniac you are. I hope you change your ways. Have a family member just like you. No one cares to visit him.

tredigs
08-05-2017, 12:54 AM
Lol, no one agrees with you because it's obvious to everyone Draymond is simply an enhancing player and not a primary one. You should really be thankful that Draymond is that good and is a fourth option on the Warriors. Not sure why you're always so upset about everything. The way you type even shows just how much of a egomaniac you are. I hope you change your ways. Have a family member just like you. No one cares to visit him.
Read the last page and tell me again nobody agrees?

Love that you're doing this thing again where you pretend to know the first thing about my life lol. You're better off focusing on hoops, and God knows you're a confused kid when it comes to hoops.

FlashBolt
08-05-2017, 01:12 AM
Read the last page and tell me again nobody agrees?

Love that you're doing this thing again where you pretend to know the first thing about my life lol. You're better off focusing on hoops, and God knows you're a confused kid when it comes to hoops.

I do know your life because people act in certain ways. It's obvious which crowd you surround yourself with - people who are just like you. And you're quite intolerable. I just put up with it because you're actually active on the site. Confused on hoops? Okay, I can care less about that. And that's the thing - you actually care so much about your online basketball knowledge that you think people value it. Sorry, pal. Your "basketball knowledge" doesn't make up for your lack of likeability. As far as other people agreeing with you, I'm not sure it's in the same context of Draymond being the first option. He wouldn't even be able to play 2nd option on an average team. The Warriors are not an average team. I have difficulty seeing how Draymond's abilities will translate to winning as a first option player on an average team. And we will never see it because Draymond wants to win so he'll never subject himself to a terrible team. He knows... He called KD right after they lost. Isn't it obvious?

Chronz
08-05-2017, 01:31 AM
Tradition is my guess.

Except that tradition began with Bill Russell. Who was considered the best player before MJ showed up despite his lack of scoring prowess. Its more like over compensation in my book.

Russell is like a 6"11 (by todays exaggerated listings) version of Draymond.

tredigs
08-05-2017, 01:43 AM
I do know your life because people act in certain ways. It's obvious which crowd you surround yourself with - people who are just like you. And you're quite intolerable. I just put up with it because you're actually active on the site. Confused on hoops? Okay, I can care less about that. And that's the thing - you actually care so much about your online basketball knowledge that you think people value it. Sorry, pal. Your "basketball knowledge" doesn't make up for your lack of likeability. As far as other people agreeing with you, I'm not sure it's in the same context of Draymond being the first option. He wouldn't even be able to play 2nd option on an average team. The Warriors are not an average team. I have difficulty seeing how Draymond's abilities will translate to winning as a first option player on an average team. And we will never see it because Draymond wants to win so he'll never subject himself to a terrible team. He knows... He called KD right after they lost. Isn't it obvious?
No, you're just an obsessed little ****ing weirdo who I like to call out for your terrible bball takes on occasion. I'm not going to pretend to know what you're actually like and I assure you I could not give the first ****. As this is an online ball forum and all.

tredigs
08-05-2017, 01:45 AM
Except that tradition began with Bill Russell. Who was considered the best player before MJ showed up despite his lack of scoring prowess. Its more like over compensation in my book.

Russell is like a 6"11 (by todays exaggerated listings) version of Draymond.

Bingo.

prodigy
08-05-2017, 09:20 AM
He's like Rodman if Rodman was a playmaking big who could run the floor, finish in traffic and/or kick it out in stride, and/or pull up from 3. In those regards he is actually highly valuable to an offense and thus much more interchangeable for any team in the game. Granted, Rodman's O-rebounding was highly valuable, although he often gave up on assignments to get his boards. Green is a far more well rounded, better player than Rodman.

And while yes "hiding" his scoring is easier on GS (I don't think it's hidden as he would be about the same on any team as far as his scoring role goes), you're talking about a team that cruises to 67 win seasons. They are SO FAR beyond your average playoff team that I'm not even sure it's worth making that point. Specifically as he is a massive reason why they are so far ahead. On other teams their offense would not be as good obviously, but he would drastically improve their defense and so long as they had some scorers/shooters and could play as a team, he would also be an addition to their offense. Health aside, we don't have to go too far into the fact that Draymond is a flat out die-hard competitor and DEMANDS the most out of his teammates (I have never seen this from the likes of AD, Towns, Cousins, etc), but it is a reality and a very integral part of what it means to build a winner around your leader. He's had that rep since high school, continued it through college and now instills it through the Warriors and all their players (famously down to Curry and KD). Most players simply don't have it, Draymond has it. And again, always near the top of the leaderboard in BPM, VORP, RPM. Hint: You won't find that with Kyrie or Love (I know you personally don't like Kyrie, I'm just making a point about "riding coattails" on elite teams here). 6'5" and the 2nd best rim protecting FG% in the game last season. 6.5 APG+ from the PF/C position. B2B2B DPOY or DPOY runner up. All NBA b2b. The stats and accolades go on. The winning goes on. I'm moving on.


I did not say he had to be "by far" your best player, and I would never build the Pels in the same way around AD as I would around Green, so it's sort of a moot point there. Not exactly the strongest point to suggest that you think he would suck less than AD has sucked, either. But yes, Green could certainly be the best player on many playoff teams in theory. Never a top scoring option, but very often could he be the most impactful.

This reminds me of when pacer fans tried to tell me George Hill was a better PG then Irving. They would break it down and say, well Hill is better at this and that. I'm just like stop. Irving is way better then Hill for many reasons. Hes a superstar for a reason. You can break it down all you want. AD is a lot better then Green thats just a fact. Green has a good all around game and it fits perfect with GS. But as many have said already, If Green is ur #1 option or even #2 ur prob not a good team. Thats not his game. Hes a excellent role player and nothing wrong with that at all. Very good role player.

Jamiecballer
08-05-2017, 09:34 AM
You guys really dont know what Tre means by outsourcing his scoring do you? Its really not that hard to replace scoring when the comparison is a DPOY with a decent offensive game to boot. Could be wrong but its just a thought , why is scoring THAT valuable in your opinion?

i'm with you. i don't like the man behind the play but Green might be the hardest guy in the league to replace.

Jamiecballer
08-05-2017, 09:42 AM
This reminds me of when pacer fans tried to tell me George Hill was a better PG then Irving. They would break it down and say, well Hill is better at this and that. I'm just like stop. Irving is way better then Hill for many reasons. Hes a superstar for a reason. You can break it down all you want. AD is a lot better then Green thats just a fact. Green has a good all around game and it fits perfect with GS. But as many have said already, If Green is ur #1 option or even #2 ur prob not a good team. Thats not his game. Hes a excellent role player and nothing wrong with that at all. Very good role player.

haha i'm still taking Hill in this conversation unless I am an expansion type team that needs to sell tickets

Scoots
08-05-2017, 11:39 AM
Except that tradition began with Bill Russell. Who was considered the best player before MJ showed up despite his lack of scoring prowess. Its more like over compensation in my book.

Russell is like a 6"11 (by todays exaggerated listings) version of Draymond.

Maybe. But the top scorers and passers have always been celebrated more that the all-around guys. As they say "defense isn't sexy". I think part of it is that it's harder to see what's special about some players. Most people watching the Warriors don't really see that Iguodala and Draymond are calling the off-the-ball switches and hedges and all that motion that makes the Warriors offense and breaks the opponents offense. It's almost hidden because most eyes are on the ball.

Scoots
08-05-2017, 11:41 AM
This reminds me of when pacer fans tried to tell me George Hill was a better PG then Irving. They would break it down and say, well Hill is better at this and that. I'm just like stop. Irving is way better then Hill for many reasons. Hes a superstar for a reason. You can break it down all you want. AD is a lot better then Green thats just a fact. Green has a good all around game and it fits perfect with GS. But as many have said already, If Green is ur #1 option or even #2 ur prob not a good team. Thats not his game. Hes a excellent role player and nothing wrong with that at all. Very good role player.

Hill's value was demonstrated by Utah last year ... when he was in they were a top 3 team in the West, without him they were barely top 8. It's just not obvious from the box score.

eDush
08-05-2017, 11:43 AM
This reminds me of when pacer fans tried to tell me George Hill was a better PG then Irving. They would break it down and say, well Hill is better at this and that. I'm just like stop. Irving is way better then Hill for many reasons. Hes a superstar for a reason. You can break it down all you want. AD is a lot better then Green thats just a fact. Green has a good all around game and it fits perfect with GS. But as many have said already, If Green is ur #1 option or even #2 ur prob not a good team. Thats not his game. Hes a excellent role player and nothing wrong with that at all. Very good role player.

Hill's value was demonstrated by Utah last year ... when he was in they were a top 3 team in the West, without him they were barely top 8. It's just not obvious from the box score.Agreed and very true :clap:

prodigy
08-05-2017, 12:36 PM
haha i'm still taking Hill in this conversation unless I am an expansion type team that needs to sell tickets

thats cute. Kyrie was hitting Game winners in the NBA finals!! lol :clap::clap:

Not a bash on Hill either, very nice player who fills his role. That don't win you ships though. Superstars do. Cavs don't beat warriors with Hill. They needed Irving's elite scoring. Hill also isn't the passer many make him out to be.

Chronz
08-05-2017, 12:55 PM
thats cute. Kyrie was hitting Game winners in the NBA finals!! lol :clap::clap:

Not a bash on Hill either, very nice player who fills his role. That don't win you ships though. Superstars do. Cavs don't beat warriors with Hill. They needed Irving's elite scoring. Hill also isn't the passer many make him out to be.

Its definitely a closer debate than you're depicting. Kyrie wasn't doing **** without Bron so who cares? Hill never got the chance to play with Bron so how do you know? We've seen the Cavs get the #1 seed without Kyrie when they had a similar prototype of a player in Delly playing most of Kyrie's minutes, now imagine a higher tier of that in Hill. Im pretty sure they would have a great shot at a chip and would be FAR better defensively.

FlashBolt
08-05-2017, 01:06 PM
Its definitely a closer debate than you're depicting. Kyrie wasn't doing **** without Bron so who cares? Hill never got the chance to play with Bron so how do you know? We've seen the Cavs get the #1 seed without Kyrie when they had a similar prototype of a player in Delly playing most of Kyrie's minutes, now imagine a higher tier of that in Hill. Im pretty sure they would have a great shot at a chip and would be FAR better defensively.

Hill's overall impact doesn't make up for Kyrie's insane shotmaking ability. Don't get me wrong, Hill is a damn good player who I think Spurs should have taken a serious look at. But LeBron needed someone to draw attention to another player and Kyrie was far more than worthy of that calling. Kyrie is realistically a SG so we're talking about two completely different players right now. LeBron doesn't even need a PG. Why have a PG out on the floor when you're essentially going to have the ball on your hands that many possessions? Cavs would do better having two shooting guards or two SF's on the court and LeBron takes on PG duties.

Jamiecballer
08-05-2017, 04:56 PM
thats cute. Kyrie was hitting Game winners in the NBA finals!! lol :clap::clap:

Not a bash on Hill either, very nice player who fills his role. That don't win you ships though. Superstars do. Cavs don't beat warriors with Hill. They needed Irving's elite scoring. Hill also isn't the passer many make him out to be.True but neither player is a superstar. One is a scorer and the other a very good point guard.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
08-05-2017, 05:07 PM
True but neither player is a superstar

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Kyrie has superstar potential. George Hill peaked as a very good all around PG. Kyrie's still very young but has to show he can do more than score. Never understood why he never wants to play defense considering Kobe took defense serious against the top guys.

prodigy
08-06-2017, 10:45 AM
IWe've seen the Cavs get the #1 seed without Kyrie when they had a similar prototype of a player in Delly playing most of Kyrie's minutes

huh? when TF did this happen? lol.

prodigy
08-06-2017, 10:54 AM
Kyrie has superstar potential. George Hill peaked as a very good all around PG. Kyrie's still very young but has to show he can do more than score. Never understood why he never wants to play defense considering Kobe took defense serious against the top guys.

Kyrie picks and chooses when to play defense. 2 years ago in Finals he played good defense. last year we sw little effort.

Irving is actually a better passer then Hill. I just never understood the disrespect on Irving. Talking about someone who Jimmy Butler and Beal have publicly said is the hardest guy in the NBA to cover. I must've missed their comments on Hill lol. But i'm not trying to get into that convo again. F'ed up and disrespectful people put Hills name near Irving's. Which i also apologize for. Thats not disrespect for Hill. good player who fills a role. not someone you build with.

Someone said Irving didn't do crap until lebron. Well i mean the kid was 19 and 20 years old lol. He played very well but had a couple injury issues and a team that was tanking for higher picks.

Chronz
08-06-2017, 04:51 PM
Hill's overall impact doesn't make up for Kyrie's insane shotmaking ability.
I know, Im just saying its a closer comp than most realize and that the fit with his 2-way ability might offset some of those deficiencies alongside a LeBron.


Don't get me wrong, Hill is a damn good player who I think Spurs should have taken a serious look at.
I forget the specifics but Im pretty sure the Spurs tried, they just couldn't get the money to work and Hill had to act fast once Utah moved on IIRC. Pop would take him back in a second if he could.


But LeBron needed someone to draw attention to another player and Kyrie was far more than worthy of that calling.
He could also benefit from a more defensively stout PG as well but yeah, the talent deficit is too risky to ever pull off. But its not crazy to imagine the Cavs having a better RS record with Hill, its just the playoffs where the legend of Kyrie has grown and Hill is pretty injury prone.


Kyrie is realistically a SG so we're talking about two completely different players right now. LeBron doesn't even need a PG. Why have a PG out on the floor when you're essentially going to have the ball on your hands that many possessions? Cavs would do better having two shooting guards or two SF's on the court and LeBron takes on PG duties.
I sort of agree but it depends on how much we think Bron has declined because the truth is, Kyrie actually pounds the rock more than George Hill and is less of a catch and shoot guy than Hill is, though both are great. Hill is the kind of guy who can fill the need of either a lead ball handler OR an off the ball killer in ways that I think are undervalued by most fans(partly why I love Middleton so much). In Indiana, Hill played off of Paul George and then Stephenson, getting career years out of those guys. Then when PG went down with injury he turned the Pacers season around and nearly led Indiana into the playoffs despite being out for much of the season. Then Indiana got rid of him for a guy like Teague who took the ball out of Paul Georges hands to the point where he averaged like a 5 year low in assists, meanwhile Hill plays off of a first time all-star in Hayward in much the same way he would with LeBron, its just the guy is so injury prone.

Chronz
08-06-2017, 04:56 PM
huh? when TF did this happen? lol.
Check their record in games without Kyrie, they still elite. So elite that Kyrie could come back from an injury, throw the team out of kilter, force himself back into the fold and just gear up for the playoff run with no defense to care about until then. Kyrie is better, but Hill is a very good fit on most championship contenders.

FlashBolt
08-06-2017, 05:58 PM
Kyrie picks and chooses when to play defense. 2 years ago in Finals he played good defense. last year we sw little effort.

Irving is actually a better passer then Hill. I just never understood the disrespect on Irving. Talking about someone who Jimmy Butler and Beal have publicly said is the hardest guy in the NBA to cover. I must've missed their comments on Hill lol. But i'm not trying to get into that convo again. F'ed up and disrespectful people put Hills name near Irving's. Which i also apologize for. Thats not disrespect for Hill. good player who fills a role. not someone you build with.

Someone said Irving didn't do crap until lebron. Well i mean the kid was 19 and 20 years old lol. He played very well but had a couple injury issues and a team that was tanking for higher picks.

1) He's picking and choosing at such a young age = he'll probably never consistently play defense. LeBron picks and chooses now out of preservation of his energy. Kyrie has no excuse. Most of the time he's out there gambling on hockey passes like AI used to always do.
2) Lots of PG's in the NBA can pass. It's about who makes the passes. I wouldn't say Irving is a better passer than Hill if he's not intentively trying to make passes. Hill's giving up the ball for a better shot. Irving only does it when there's an entire wall covering him. Most of the time, it leads to a desperation play by the Cavs trying to dish out to an open shooter at the very few seconds.
3) Being the hardest guy in the NBA to cover is a 1-on-1 role. NBA isn't a 1-on-1 game at all. And I don't believe those guys have a true understanding of coverage. LeBron/KD/Curry are easily more difficult to guard than Kyrie. It's just Kyrie looks unstoppable when he's on a roll.. thing is, he has to BE on a roll. Often times, he's not and then you'll see the Cavs struggle - which we have seen numerous times when LeBron is off and Kyrie is on the court.
4) Team wasn't tanking.. they just sucked. Dan Gilbert was the same guy who said Cleveland will have a ring before LeBron so I'm not sure why he would tank. They just naturally sucked and lo-and-behold, it was reminiscent of a team tanking. Irving actually didn't do crap until LeBron and he won't do crap without him, too. He's not capable of leading a team with a ME-ME-ME personality when he has no other parts of his game to make up for it. Irving wants to be like Kobe.. except Kobe had other parts of his game that made up for his ballhoggish style of basketball. If Irving played elite defense, he'd be a top 10 player hands down. Imagine if this dude had the defensive ability of CP3, Beverley, or Avery Bradley...

Hawkeye15
08-07-2017, 09:47 AM
Because its possible that Rodman had a greater impact than even Zeke. You can build a team a variety of ways, what if one player leads to more wins?

Rodman doesn't directly lead to a lot of wins in every scenario, where a guy like Zeke probably will.

Again, you don't build around guys like Green, they are chameleons that are essential for titles, so in that aspect, they are as important as any superstar, as long as you have that superstar (or collection of talent that equates).

Ben Wallace is a great example, as is Rodman. If you are starting a team from scratch, neither is getting picked early. Because you can't pass up on offensive talent in basketball, as it relates to weighed importance for a single player. That isn't to say a Kyrie Irving over Green per say, but offense in more important to start with, individual player wise.

We also have no idea what Green looks like with meh teammates around him. We can only speculate.

Vee-Rex
08-07-2017, 10:08 AM
The sad part about Kyrie is that I think if he REALLY gave all his effort on defense he might actually be an average defender. We've seen him make big defensive plays in crunch time situations. Instead, he usually just saves all his energy for offense.

Kyrie is a better passer than most people give credit for. People tend to cringe and get frustrated every time he shoots - but that's just a product of him being a shoot-first guard. No one gets upset at Lillard when he's gunning and putting up bricks.

The ONLY part of Kyrie's passing game that is actually bad is the PnR. It's pretty obvious when he's gonna try to force a pass or be aggressive and take a shot off the PnR.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2017, 10:22 AM
The sad part about Kyrie is that I think if he REALLY gave all his effort on defense he might actually be an average defender. We've seen him make big defensive plays in crunch time situations. Instead, he usually just saves all his energy for offense.

Kyrie is a better passer than most people give credit for. People tend to cringe and get frustrated every time he shoots - but that's just a product of him being a shoot-first guard. No one gets upset at Lillard when he's gunning and putting up bricks.

The ONLY part of Kyrie's passing game that is actually bad is the PnR. It's pretty obvious when he's gonna try to force a pass or be aggressive and take a shot off the PnR.

Irving is acceptable as a defender when he is concentrated, but just doesn't care about it honestly.

Irving is a good passer, he just gets massive tunnel vision at times. Not the first player to do so, not going to be the last.

I am as hard as it gets on him. I don't like playground, that is his game, but he can score efficiently, and is a wonderful offensive player. I just can't stand watching a guy break someone's ankles on one end, then get blown by on a straight line drive on the other end. Cmon, we all know you are fast enough to stop that....

prodigy
08-07-2017, 10:26 AM
Check their record in games without Kyrie, they still elite. So elite that Kyrie could come back from an injury, throw the team out of kilter, force himself back into the fold and just gear up for the playoff run with no defense to care about until then. Kyrie is better, but Hill is a very good fit on most championship contenders.

WTF?? up ya Cavs have a guy name Lebron James who plays on the team. so ya they might win a game without Irving LMAO!

Scoots
08-07-2017, 10:43 AM
Again, you don't build around guys like Green, they are chameleons that are essential for titles, so in that aspect, they are as important as any superstar, as long as you have that superstar (or collection of talent that equates).

I read that from you and had this in my news feed show up at the same time:

https://sports.yahoo.com/analysis-16-best-sports-teams-181400301.html

Hawkeye15
08-07-2017, 11:07 AM
I read that from you and had this in my news feed show up at the same time:

https://sports.yahoo.com/analysis-16-best-sports-teams-181400301.html

Right, because said player(s) are in the exact situation to optimize what they bring. Rodman on the 1994 Wolves does what exactly? Add 3-5 wins probably. David Robinson on the 1994 Wolves does what exactly? Add 14-18 wins probably.

That is the point I am trying to make.

Hawkeye15
08-07-2017, 11:24 AM
And I agree with you. The most important player on championship teams is not the same as the best player on a mid-field team. That guy makes the difference between very good and a title, but doesn't make as much impact on a terrible team.

it's such a fine line. It takes a guy with elite skillset(s), but that has the role player mentality. That just isn't common, as a combination.

Scoots
08-07-2017, 11:26 AM
Right, because said player(s) are in the exact situation to optimize what they bring. Rodman on the 1994 Wolves does what exactly? Add 3-5 wins probably. David Robinson on the 1994 Wolves does what exactly? Add 14-18 wins probably.

That is the point I am trying to make.

And I agree with you. The most important player on championship teams is not the same as the best player on a mid-field team. That guy makes the difference between very good and a title, but doesn't make as much impact on a terrible team.

prodigy
08-07-2017, 12:38 PM
And I agree with you. The most important player on championship teams is not the same as the best player on a mid-field team. That guy makes the difference between very good and a title, but doesn't make as much impact on a terrible team.

So If AD was on the Warriors this year do they win ship? lol. Curry, Thompson, Durant, AD

tredigs
08-07-2017, 12:52 PM
So If AD was on the Warriors this year do they win ship? lol. Curry, Thompson, Durant, AD

Not a great point as the Warriors were far better than everyone else last year. They would have been worse, and still won.

Scoots
08-07-2017, 01:13 PM
So If AD was on the Warriors this year do they win ship? lol. Curry, Thompson, Durant, AD

That's an interesting question ... The Warriors offense had down games that they won because of defense and those largely because of Green. I think the Warriors would have been worse overall but would have a chance to win a title.

If I was starting a team and had a choice of a first player and had to choose between Green and AD? It would be VERY hard to not choose AD.

FlashBolt
08-07-2017, 04:08 PM
I think Kyrie stops playing defense because he's afraid his knees or ankles will give up on him. He'd much rather do the flashy style of basketball and take losses.. that's his persona. And might I add, a losing one. Even though Harden plays zero defense, his other areas of the game are insanely good. Kyrie just scores.. and scores.. and when the game gets tight, he doesn't adjust because he can't or won't.

prodigy
08-08-2017, 10:41 AM
smh... lol, All i can do. i wish people weren't such homers and could have real convos.

Scoots
08-08-2017, 12:46 PM
smh... lol, All i can do. i wish people weren't such homers and could have real convos.

I had a non-homer response to you ... so one of the 2 responses were not homer responses.

tredigs
08-08-2017, 02:10 PM
smh... lol, All i can do. i wish people weren't such homers and could have real convos.

In my humble opinion Scoots is let's say "absent" in his depth of NBA knowledge, but what about his or my posts do you contest?

Not that your post deserves a response. I'm just bored at the airport as usual.

Jamiecballer
08-08-2017, 04:06 PM
smh... lol, All i can do. i wish people weren't such homers and could have real convos.

uhhh aren't you the Cavs fan?

Scoots
08-08-2017, 04:08 PM
In my humble opinion Scoots is let's say "absent" in his depth of NBA knowledge, but what about his or my posts do you contest?

Not that your post deserves a response. I'm just bored at the airport as usual.

Really? "Absent" because I don't agree with you or because I choose not to argue the way you do?

What airport? Now that I quit drinking airports would be WAY worse without my phone.

Saddletramp
08-09-2017, 01:01 AM
Now I know why the bathrooms are always filthy at the Lake Tahoe airport. Internet chest puffing takes precedence.

Saddletramp
08-09-2017, 01:03 AM
Really? "Absent" because I don't agree with you or because I choose not to argue the way you do?

What airport? Now that I quit drinking airports would be WAY worse without my phone.

In case you haven't seen by now, this is like the fifth time he's called you an idiot. Almost as many times as he's called me an idiot.

Scoots
08-09-2017, 09:12 AM
In case you haven't seen by now, this is like the fifth time he's called you an idiot. Almost as many times as he's called me an idiot.

I know. I just wonder where it comes from :)

With tre I've still got hope, some other Warriors "fans" ... not so much.

tredigs
08-09-2017, 03:42 PM
I know. I just wonder where it comes from :)

With tre I've still got hope, some other Warriors "fans" ... not so much.

I didn't call you an idiot and don't think you are, I just don't vibe with many of your bball takes despite you being a Dubs fan, it happens. You also said I was being a homer in saying the Warriors would still be good enough to win the title with a still potent but worse fit at PF/C, which again makes no sense to me, but to each their own. I was at Reno/Tahoe International on my way home. Definitely an airport where you want a Bloody available.

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 04:12 PM
AD is easily better than Green and the Warriors would be better with AD. Stop this nonsense.

tredigs
08-09-2017, 04:28 PM
AD is easily better than Green and the Warriors would be better with AD. Stop this nonsense.

Can argue that AD is better in a random team, but no, the Warriors would be much worse with him in Green's stead. He does nothing better than Green that the Warriors need, and has nothing close to Green's leadership ability. Throw in the fact that Green is a rock and AD is fragile as **** and the potential switch would just be laughably stupid. The goal is to build champions, not cool All Star Teams.

ewing
08-09-2017, 04:32 PM
This is like that age old Karl Malone vs Charles Oakley debate

tredigs
08-09-2017, 04:37 PM
This is like that age old Karl Malone vs Charles Oakley debate

If Oak was way better defensively, could run the floor, hit 3's and had fantastic playmaking ability. And if Malone was not the most reliably healthy athlete in the game, but instead an oft injured gamble. Then this debate would be just like that lol.

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 04:40 PM
Can argue that AD is better in a random team, but no, the Warriors would be much worse with him in Green's stead. He does nothing better than Green that the Warriors need, and has nothing close to Green's leadership ability. Throw in the fact that Green is a rock and AD is fragile as **** and the potential switch would just be laughably stupid. The goal is to build champions, not cool All Star Teams.

You would've won in 2016 with AD over Green so you'd have more championships.

tredigs
08-09-2017, 04:44 PM
You would've won in 2016 with AD over Green so you'd have more championships.

Definitely not sure that's true but it is a fair counter given the Green suspension. In either case, the team would absolutely be worse.

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 04:49 PM
Definitely not sure that's true but it is a fair counter given the Green suspension. In either case, the team would absolutely be worse.

We can agree to disagree then. You take the far better player every time imo. While Klay and Green have awful games offensively in the finals, AD would not. While Green is the better defender, ADs length would cause much more problems for an attacking LeBron/Kyrie than anything Green can try to do. Still have a poor mans Green in Iggy off the bench too.

Curry
Klay
Iggy
KD
AD

That would be the best Warriors lineup ever.

tredigs
08-09-2017, 04:58 PM
We can agree to disagree then. You take the far better player every time imo. While Klay and Green have awful games offensively in the finals, AD would not. While Green is the better defender, ADs length would cause much more problems for an attacking LeBron/Kyrie than anything Green can try to do. Still have a poor mans Green in Iggy off the bench too.

Curry
Klay
Iggy
KD
AD

That would be the best Warriors lineup ever.
We definitely disagree. Draymond rated better in both close out and rim protection stats by the way (not a close margin), and is just clearly way, way smarter defensively, so I'm not sure why you think AD would be better defensively against Cleveland. Makes no sense to me. Draymond and his nearly 7'2" wingspan is plenty long.

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 05:00 PM
We definitely disagree. Draymond rated better in both close out and rim protection stats by the way (not a close margin), and is just clearly way, way smarter defensively, so I'm not sure why you think AD would be better defensively against Cleveland. Makes no sense to me. Draymond and his nearly 7'2" wingspan is plenty long.

Green is also a much better defender than Biyombo but LeBron had second guesses about attacking when he was down there. Nothing Green does slows LeBron down.

tredigs
08-09-2017, 05:10 PM
Green is also a much better defender than Biyombo but LeBron had second guesses about attacking when he was down there. Nothing Green does slows LeBron down.
Not much slows down Lebron. Any stats or info why we should believe AD would?

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 05:55 PM
Not much slows down Lebron. Any stats or info why we should believe AD would?

Not sure but I know he tends to shy away from long athletic bigs from time to time. Regardless AD is a much better player than Green and I believe the only people that would argue Green is better or better for any team period is a Warriors fan.

tredigs
08-09-2017, 06:03 PM
Not sure but I know he tends to shy away from long athletic bigs from time to time. Regardless AD is a much better player than Green and I believe the only people that would argue Green is better or better for any team period is a Warriors fan.
I'll shorten your post for you. "No".

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 06:39 PM
We'll have the exact same teams except you take Green and I'll take AD, my team is winning majority of the time.

It is kind of sad we judge moves the Warriors and Cavs make strictly on their matchup with the other team but that's the way the league is now I suppose.

THE_LOGO
08-09-2017, 06:40 PM
This seems like off topic now, but wasn't "who are the players you hate but would love on your team" the original question? In the late 90s when the Jazz were beating up on my Lakers and all those arrogant Jazz fans would come to the Forum and talk all kinds of crap, I told them Karl Malone would never win a ring. Fast forward to 2004 and I regretted saying it.

So now, there's two players I hate HATE HATE HAAAAAATTTEEE! Harden, who looks like a 13 year old girl with a beard taking duck face selfies. I just want to punch his mouth. Maybe, if he shaved his beard, I wouldn't hate him so much. And the other is Blake. Always a tough guy that tries to fight everyone even for a common foul. What does he expect when he's always dunkin on fools? I understand the flagrant fouls, throw down for sure. But if its a common foul - what? you don't want to get touched when you're trying to dunk?

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 06:45 PM
I mean honestly I don't really hate players anymore now that Wade isn't elite over the course of a full season anymore. I used to hate Harden, he's still pretty annoying but I relate because we're both ugly as **** and cover it up with our beards.

THE_LOGO
08-09-2017, 07:07 PM
I mean honestly I don't really hate players anymore now that Wade isn't elite over the course of a full season anymore. I used to hate Harden, he's still pretty annoying but I relate because we're both ugly as **** and cover it up with our beards.

LOL! Well, I also hate Harden because it felt like the NBA wanted him to be a star with all the phantom calls he'd get. Hell, even with my old knees, I could dominate the NBA if a foul was called if someone breathed on me. Granted, he's not as out of control as he used to be but he still gets phantom calls.

FlashBolt
08-10-2017, 02:00 AM
Tired of the narrative Harden gets phantom calls because the refs willingly do it. The guy is just smart and exploited a loophole. Props to him. Basketball is about outsmarting everyone else. Used to hate Harden for flopping and all that nonsense but if NBA allows it, not his problem. The more you think about basketball as a strategy game, the more you'll enjoy it.

ewing
08-10-2017, 08:42 AM
If Oak was way better defensively, could run the floor, hit 3's and had fantastic playmaking ability. And if Malone was not the most reliably healthy athlete in the game, but instead an oft injured gamble. Then this debate would be just like that lol.

:facepalm:

Scoots
08-10-2017, 10:42 AM
This is now a very silly thread.

If we assume Green is better than AD on defense (DPOY, 2 time runner up DPOY) ... then the question is does AD add enough to the Warriors offense to make up for the drop in defense. AD took 20+ shots a game last year and was less efficient than KD, Curry, and Klay so does he deserve taking those shots away from them?

Like I said, if I was starting a team I'd take AD, but I wouldn't assume swapping AD and Green on this Warriors team results in a better team at all.

WaDe03
08-10-2017, 10:51 AM
This is now a very silly thread.

If we assume Green is better than AD on defense (DPOY, 2 time runner up DPOY) ... then the question is does AD add enough to the Warriors offense to make up for the drop in defense. AD took 20+ shots a game last year and was less efficient than KD, Curry, and Klay so does he deserve taking those shots away from them?

Like I said, if I was starting a team I'd take AD, but I wouldn't assume swapping AD and Green on this Warriors team results in a better team at all.

Of course he's going to be less efficient when the opposing defense has to only game plan for him. The Warriors efficiency numbers are so inflated right now due to all their talent. You can't even game plan for just 2 guys on the Warriors, trust me. :nod:

ewing
08-10-2017, 11:15 AM
This is now a very silly thread.

If we assume Green is better than AD on defense (DPOY, 2 time runner up DPOY) ... then the question is does AD add enough to the Warriors offense to make up for the drop in defense. AD took 20+ shots a game last year and was less efficient than KD, Curry, and Klay so does he deserve taking those shots away from them?

Like I said, if I was starting a team I'd take AD, but I wouldn't assume swapping AD and Green on this Warriors team results in a better team at all.

Defense :facepalm: you guys give up 50 point quarters in the NBA finals.

tredigs
08-10-2017, 11:20 AM
Defense :facepalm: you guys give up 50 point quarters in the NBA finals.

You're digging your hole even deeper questioning the Warriors D.

tredigs
08-10-2017, 11:32 AM
Of course he's going to be less efficient when the opposing defense has to only game plan for him. The Warriors efficiency numbers are so inflated right now due to all their talent. You can't even game plan for just 2 guys on the Warriors, trust me. :nod:
The efficiency of Draymond/Klay/Curry actually all states the same or dipped with Durant, so, not so much. That's just who they are. KD's efficiency went from a 64%TS average the past 3 years to a 65%. Again, no perceivable inflation. AD is just not close to Curry or KD's level as a scorer, despite it being his top attribute. And @ Ewing yes, Draymond is easily the better defender than Oak, especially for this era. And their overall games are not comparable.

ewing
08-10-2017, 11:49 AM
You're digging your hole even deeper questioning the Warriors D.


Juggernaut mirite?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Vee-Rex
08-10-2017, 11:52 AM
There's no question that Green fits better in the Warriors system than AD does. I'd argue that there's no player in the NBA who could perform Green's role better than him (I'd say prime LeBron is the exception - I believe he could do it now but others may disagree). Green is not only a defensive juggernaut, but he does it in the crazy uptempo style of the Warriors game. That's not easy nor is it normal. Even if, for arguments sake, we assume AD would become an elite defender with less offensive burden, there's no way he could run the floor the way Green does.

Green will play superb defense, rebound, run the floor and drive in or pass to the perimeter, wash, rinse, repeat. His mobility in the full court (not to mention in the half court) is a serious problem for opposing bigs.

IMO, AD is the better player. Doesn't mean he makes the Warriors better in a straight swap with Green. James Harden is a better player than Klay Thompson but swapping him with Klay doesn't mean the Warriors become better.

WaDe03
08-10-2017, 12:06 PM
Curry
Harden
Iggy
Durant
AD

Is better than

Curry
Klay
Durant
Green
Zaza

We can sit here and talk defense or whatever but the fact of the matter is, they won because they had more scorers than the Cavs, it wasn't their defense.

WaDe03
08-10-2017, 12:07 PM
The efficiency of Draymond/Klay/Curry actually all states the same or dipped with Durant, so, not so much. That's just who they are. KD's efficiency went from a 64%TS average the past 3 years to a 65%. Again, no perceivable inflation. AD is just not close to Curry or KD's level as a scorer, despite it being his top attribute. And @ Ewing yes, Draymond is easily the better defender than Oak, especially for this era. And their overall games are not comparable.

Well it definitely showed in the finals where Curry finally didn't underperform due to KD taking so much attention from him.