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View Full Version : Hayward wearing 20; Allen's # not being retired: thoughts?



JasonJohnHorn
07-14-2017, 11:17 PM
From a Tweet... don't know if this is legit
https://twitter.com/AdamMKaufman/status/885915766075404289

I know Allen and Boston parted ways on bad terms, and though a lot of Boston fans and players side with Boston, it seem, as an outsider, that Allen was perfectly within his rights to leave and take issue with how the franchise treated him.

That said, Jesus Shuttlesworth is a HOF player who was a key piece to a title Boston has, and while the bar may be a little higher in Boston when it comes to getting a number retired given the franchise's legacy, it seems like holding off on giving that number away and trying to mend fences is the right thing to do. And that number 20 should be up in the rafters with Allen's name on it.


Beef or no beef.

nastynice
07-14-2017, 11:25 PM
Why would Boston retire Ray Allens number? Seems a bit a stretch

Did they retire kg's number? They prob shouldn't have to begin with, but if they did, then I kinda see the argument for retiring Allens too

Bostonjorge
07-14-2017, 11:43 PM
When KG forgives Allen then Boston can forgive him to.

mavwar53
07-14-2017, 11:54 PM
Celtics have too long and rich of a history to retire the jersey of a guy who's best years were elsewhere. He only won 1 championship with them and averaged 16.7 pts, 3.4 Reb and 2.7 Ast.

So why should they retire his number is the best question.

LA_Raiders
07-15-2017, 12:36 AM
Lol, hell no, he didn't do much and did not play long with the team to deserve that. Clown pierce may be the only one that deserves it out of the big 3, may be KG too.

ewing
07-15-2017, 12:37 AM
He was a big part of that team but was past his prime and wasn't there long he doesn't deserve his # retired in Boston. Seattle more imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nastynice
07-15-2017, 01:14 AM
He was a big part of that team but was past his prime and wasn't there long he doesn't deserve his # retired in Boston. Seattle more imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

that boy was FILTHY in Seattle, he used to take it to the rack all day

AntiG
07-15-2017, 01:14 AM
Why would Boston retire Ray Allens number? Seems a bit a stretch

Did they retire kg's number? They prob shouldn't have to begin with, but if they did, then I kinda see the argument for retiring Allens too

KG will get retired. He was DPOY and pretty much the MVP of the championship team throughout the year.

nastynice
07-15-2017, 01:31 AM
KG will get retired. He was DPOY and pretty much the MVP of the championship team throughout the year.

I see ur a Boston fan, so if they retire kg and ur happy about it then more power to you, but from an outsider perspective I would find that odd as hell. He was a sav in Boston, but the man was clearly a diff animal in minny, he was legit MVP caliber (I think he won one actually) top handful player in the league. I remember him straight carrying that team at times

zadora5
07-15-2017, 04:26 AM
Never understood the hate against Ray Allen, the Celtics, dangled him in trade talks every year and they would have traded him if the right deal came along. Ray Allen made the best choice for his career at the time, garnett and pierce are just salty af.

Another thing that kills me (unrelated) while I respect that Kevin Durant chose to go where he wanted because it was his right, he *****ed about Miami and got childish when Reggie Jackson switched teams, but he ended up doing the same **** kills me

Oakmont_4
07-15-2017, 06:48 AM
Never understood the hate against Ray Allen, the Celtics, dangled him in trade talks every year and they would have traded him if the right deal came along. Ray Allen made the best choice for his career at the time, garnett and pierce are just salty af.

Another thing that kills me (unrelated) while I respect that Kevin Durant chose to go where he wanted because it was his right, he *****ed about Miami and got childish when Reggie Jackson switched teams, but he ended up doing the same **** kills me

First off...Completely false that they tried to trade Ray every year. That was not a thing.

Secondly...I fail to see how trade rumors impact a number being retired? Pierce was in trade rumors often as well yet he will undoubtedly have his number retired.

Retiring numbers has everything to do with impact on an organization. If you impact or change an organization to an extreme positive, you're going to get your number retired. Pierce clearly did that...Being one of the longest tenured Celtics in history and holding numbers that rank near the top of one of, if not the most, historied franchises in the NBA. More than that, Pierce started his career in one of the worst stretches in Celtic history and played for years on teams that were some of the worst in the NBA, yet he gutted it out and complained little. He took a team on his back to the ECF with the only other player worth anything on the roster was Antowan Walker...Which isn't much help. Pierce's legacy is clearly cemented and his impact cannot be overstated in getting the Celtics to where they are now, back to being one of the top teams in the NBA. Bringing a championship back to Boston after a 30 year drought was the icing on the cake.

Garnett's impact was huge as well. Despite not being the tenured member of the franchise like Pierce, Garnett had the MOST impact on that championship team. Not only was he the best player on the team (putting up an MVP worthy season) and completely changed the culture of the team. A culture that still exists today despite him being gone for nearly 5 years now. That's legacy worthy. Yes, Garnetts best years of his career were elsewhere, but his impact here can still be seen and that is why his number will also be retired. Changing the culture and bringing a championship to the city will land your number in the rafters for eternal glory.

Ray Allen did not have near the impact these other 2 did. Yes he was a key contributor to that championship no doubt. But he wasn't a vocal leader of the team, he wasn't a leading statistical contributor, and in all honestly, he wasn't well liked in the locker room. Yes the fans liked him while he was here, but Boston fans will like any player that succeeds in their arena. But if we're being honest, his role was nothing more than a supporting one on this team. He was part of the "big 3" because he had the name power. But his impact, I don't think, was that much greater than a James Posey or Leon Poe. They had their shining moments, but they did not carry the load. His ungrateful exit and the way he went about it pretty much sealed his fate. Boston is a very loyal city, Allen did not return that favor (which he had every right not to) and the city certainly isn't going to honor his jersey the same way they do to Pierce and Garnett. And I think that's deservedly so.

Lil Rhody
07-15-2017, 07:09 AM
Simply no. We are not the Miami heat. Look at the numbers in the rafters and the lore behind the numbers. I love ray ray but he didn't do enough. Honestly I love kg as well and don't think his number should be up there as well




Really pierce is in the fence as well

Oakmont_4
07-15-2017, 07:59 AM
Simply no. We are not the Miami heat. Look at the numbers in the rafters and the lore behind the numbers. I love ray ray but he didn't do enough. Honestly I love kg as well and don't think his number should be up there as well




Really pierce is in the fence as well

Huh?

Games played #4 in C's history
Minutes played #3 in C's history
Points #2 in C's history (behind Havlicek only)
Points per game #2 in C's history (behind Bird only)
FT attempted and made #1 in C's history
Assists #7 in C's history
Rebounds #7 in C's history
3pt FG% #10 in C's history
Triple doubles #4 in C's history

The C's have 21 retired numbers. Pierce ranks top 10 in just about every meaningful stat category in C's history.

Most historians rank Pierce between #5-6 all time in C's history only behind Russell, Bird, Havlicek, McHale and Cowens.

How the HELL is Pierce on the fence?

warfelg
07-15-2017, 09:07 AM
Paul Pierce is the only one of the "big 3" that deserves his number hanging from the rafters.

hugepatsfan
07-15-2017, 09:38 AM
Pierce will obviously have his retired. KG gets his retired for the culture he brought with him. He was only a transcendent player with Boston for a year and a half until his knee injury but he was a transcendent presence for all 6 years.

If Ray left on better terms he'd get his number retired with those guys in a big ceremony even though he doesn't deserve it. But with the drama that's unfolded they'll get their numbers retired and he won't.

AllBall
07-15-2017, 10:15 AM
First off...Completely false that they tried to trade Ray every year. That was not a thing.

http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8552139/ray-allen-left-boston-celtics-no-trade-clause-table

Nice attempt at revisionist history.

zadora5
07-15-2017, 04:38 PM
First off...Completely false that they tried to trade Ray every year. That was not a thing.

http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8552139/ray-allen-left-boston-celtics-no-trade-clause-table

Nice attempt at revisionist history.

Thank you, people swear they know what they are talking about on psd all the time, that's why I've been a member since like 2006 and barley post on this **** anymore

GoferKing_
07-15-2017, 05:55 PM
Why would they retire Ray's number? Only Pierce should be up there.

JasonJohnHorn
07-15-2017, 07:43 PM
Huh?

Games played #4 in C's history
Minutes played #3 in C's history
Points #2 in C's history (behind Havlicek only)
Points per game #2 in C's history (behind Bird only)
FT attempted and made #1 in C's history
Assists #7 in C's history
Rebounds #7 in C's history
3pt FG% #10 in C's history
Triple doubles #4 in C's history

The C's have 21 retired numbers. Pierce ranks top 10 in just about every meaningful stat category in C's history.

Most historians rank Pierce between #5-6 all time in C's history only behind Russell, Bird, Havlicek, McHale and Cowens.

How the HELL is Pierce on the fence?

+1

JasonJohnHorn
07-15-2017, 07:56 PM
Any other team in the league other than LAL and BOS, all four guys get a jersey retired for what they did.

With Boston, Pierce certainly deserves it, and I think given the number of seasons Rondo played there, he should get it to.

Allen and KG? I say yes, not only because of the title and what they did in Boston, but because they are both HOFers. Having the greatest shooter of all time (at the time.... Curry/Klay now), and the leader in 3pt made (the record being set in Boston), it seems like Allen's deserving in my mind. This wouldn't even be a question for a team like Minny or BK.

KG won DPOY in Boston and a title. And he's likely the second greatest PF to ever play the game. He had better personal stats in Minny, yes, but he saw his most success in Boston.


Having a HOFer win a title on your team, even if they were only in your city for 5 years, that's special. Even by Boston standards.

I mean... DJ only has one All-Star appearance in Boston and played 7 season, none of the at as high a level as Allen. His number is retired. Granted, he has two titles, but played a small role. Ray Allen had 3 All-Star appearance in Boston green.

Tom Sanders never made an All-Star team; he just happened to be on the team when Russell was leading them to titles. That's like James Jones a spot in the HOF because he's one of only two players since Russell retired to make it to 7-straight finals. Same can be said of several of the guys from the 60's. Just being on those teams enshrined them in Bostons' rafters, even if they were bench player.

I realize it is Boston and the bar is set pretty high, but Allen and KG both deserve it.

mavwar53
07-15-2017, 10:28 PM
What's funny to me about someone thinking this is a big deal is that I don't even remember Allens number when it comes to the Celtics. I remember 34 for the Sonics and Bucks quite a bit though.

THE MTL
07-16-2017, 12:27 AM
This ain't miami heat.

BoSox47
07-16-2017, 01:08 AM
First off...Completely false that they tried to trade Ray every year. That was not a thing.

Secondly...I fail to see how trade rumors impact a number being retired? Pierce was in trade rumors often as well yet he will undoubtedly have his number retired.

Retiring numbers has everything to do with impact on an organization. If you impact or change an organization to an extreme positive, you're going to get your number retired. Pierce clearly did that...Being one of the longest tenured Celtics in history and holding numbers that rank near the top of one of, if not the most, historied franchises in the NBA. More than that, Pierce started his career in one of the worst stretches in Celtic history and played for years on teams that were some of the worst in the NBA, yet he gutted it out and complained little. He took a team on his back to the ECF with the only other player worth anything on the roster was Antowan Walker...Which isn't much help. Pierce's legacy is clearly cemented and his impact cannot be overstated in getting the Celtics to where they are now, back to being one of the top teams in the NBA. Bringing a championship back to Boston after a 30 year drought was the icing on the cake.

Garnett's impact was huge as well. Despite not being the tenured member of the franchise like Pierce, Garnett had the MOST impact on that championship team. Not only was he the best player on the team (putting up an MVP worthy season) and completely changed the culture of the team. A culture that still exists today despite him being gone for nearly 5 years now. That's legacy worthy. Yes, Garnetts best years of his career were elsewhere, but his impact here can still be seen and that is why his number will also be retired. Changing the culture and bringing a championship to the city will land your number in the rafters for eternal glory.

Ray Allen did not have near the impact these other 2 did. Yes he was a key contributor to that championship no doubt. But he wasn't a vocal leader of the team, he wasn't a leading statistical contributor, and in all honestly, he wasn't well liked in the locker room. Yes the fans liked him while he was here, but Boston fans will like any player that succeeds in their arena. But if we're being honest, his role was nothing more than a supporting one on this team. He was part of the "big 3" because he had the name power. But his impact, I don't think, was that much greater than a James Posey or Leon Poe. They had their shining moments, but they did not carry the load. His ungrateful exit and the way he went about it pretty much sealed his fate. Boston is a very loyal city, Allen did not return that favor (which he had every right not to) and the city certainly isn't going to honor his jersey the same way they do to Pierce and Garnett. And I think that's deservedly so.


@AmicoHoops
Clippers were THIS close to obtaining Celtics G Ray Allen, says source close to team.
4:28 PM - 15 Mar 2012


March 15th, 2012 at 10:39am CST by Luke Adams
Ray Allen is drawing significant interest from several contending teams, according to Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports (via Twitter). The Celtics have received offers of either a good young player or a first-round pick, and may move Allen if they were offered both a young player and a pick.

GM Danny Ainge told WEEI earlier today that he put the odds of a Celtics trade at 50/50, though he cautioned that the team may just make a small move. A. Sherrod Blakely of CSNNE.com reported yesterday that Allen was the most likely Celtic to be moved at the deadline.


The Celtics are seeking a young player and first-round draft pick in exchange for Ray Allen and that's an asking price that's likely too rich for the Clippers' blood. Even if Los Angeles was willing to meet the C's asking price, the bigger issue is that they don't have a first-round pick in this year's draft.

-Alex Kennedy


"When [Celtics GM] Danny [Ainge] and I talked about trading for Ray, he wanted Tyler Hansbrough and a first-round pick," Bird said. "If that's the value he's putting on Ray Allen, he ain't getting it. That tells me he's in no hurry to trade him."

Ray Allen definitely got shopped around by the Celtics.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-16-2017, 03:04 PM
IIRC, the Celtics had a deal in place to trade Ray at the deadline in 2012 but they weren't able to complete all the work necessary to complete it in time.

PAOboston
07-16-2017, 03:06 PM
The C's have this fetish when it comes to retiring numbers. They do it for everyone (to a fault).

Pierce is a guarantee to get his 34 retired. There really is no question here.

I think they will retire KG's number too for what he meant to the franchise. He had an MVP type year/impact his first season here. His knee injury robbed the Cs of a likely back to back championship. Overall, his impact and demeanor was the driving force of that Cs team for 6 years. I can see why they would retire his number (though I personally do not think he should have his number retired). .

Allen will not and should not have his number retired. Shortest stint of the big 3 and probably least impactful as far as meaning and impact. Also, burned his bridges leaving Boston (though I was not as offended at him leaving as others were).

Scoots
07-16-2017, 03:36 PM
I prefer the Raiders approach ... the only "retired" number is 00 because the NFL said no player could use it anymore.

JordansBulls
07-16-2017, 08:24 PM
Celtics have too long and rich of a history to retire the jersey of a guy who's best years were elsewhere. He only won 1 championship with them and averaged 16.7 pts, 3.4 Reb and 2.7 Ast.

So why should they retire his number is the best question.

This. Not like he won league or finals mvp either.

Jets012
07-16-2017, 08:34 PM
Yea he shouldn't have his number retired.

But that doesn't change the fact that KG/Pierce/Rondo are scumbags and need to get over the fact that Allen left.

hugepatsfan
07-16-2017, 09:40 PM
Yea he shouldn't have his number retired.

But that doesn't change the fact that KG/Pierce/Rondo are scumbags and need to get over the fact that Allen left.

Why do they have to be friends with someone they don't like? As a professional athlete Ray is free to sign where he wants and as human being KG/Pierce/Rondo are free to be offended and have their personal relationships affected by whatever they want.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-16-2017, 09:51 PM
Nah he was good but can't retire every all star's number.

Jets012
07-17-2017, 01:05 AM
Why do they have to be friends with someone they don't like? As a professional athlete Ray is free to sign where he wants and as human being KG/Pierce/Rondo are free to be offended and have their personal relationships affected by whatever they want.

That's fine. I understand these are human beings. But when KG, Rondo, and Pierce to this day still do everything in their power to throw a subtle diss at Allen whenever they can, it's immature, petty, and obnoxious.

Oakmont_4
07-17-2017, 08:05 AM
http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8552139/ray-allen-left-boston-celtics-no-trade-clause-table

Nice attempt at revisionist history.

Ray was here for 5 years. Your article sites three years with 3 potential trades. So again, he wasn't on the block every year.

Oakmont_4
07-17-2017, 08:09 AM
Ray Allen definitely got shopped around by the Celtics.

Not denying that. But it wasn't every year. Also there's a difference between shopping and other teams asking. Again, not denying he wasn't shopped...He was at the end. Specifically his last year (which you quote here). But to make it seem like he was shopped every year he was here is completely misleading.

Oakmont_4
07-17-2017, 08:12 AM
That's fine. I understand these are human beings. But when KG, Rondo, and Pierce to this day still do everything in their power to throw a subtle diss at Allen whenever they can, it's immature, petty, and obnoxious.

I don't think this is true at all. Sure, when asked about him they do. But it's not like they're bringing him up out of nowhere to diss him. There's a difference. That would be petty. But if they don't like the guy, and we don't even know all the details on everything that happened, they're allowed IMO to act as they see fit.

Rivera
07-17-2017, 09:15 AM
yea no. he wont get his # retired in Boston. he was a key piece no one is denying that, but he didnt have the impact on the game or on the city KG had. KG will get his # retired by the Cs, he embodied a celtic. Ray didnt have the impact in the short amount of time on the court or in the city KG had. theres no reason that Ray should get his # retired by the Cs

Big Zo
07-17-2017, 10:33 AM
Ray Allen's most memorable moment was in a Miami Heat uniform.

WaDe03
07-17-2017, 10:55 AM
Ray Allen's most memorable moment was in a Miami Heat uniform.

This, by far.

WaDe03
07-17-2017, 10:57 AM
This ain't miami heat.

This! Majority of Bostons success come 30+ years ago while the Heat have been one of the most if not the most successful teams the last decade or so.

Oakmont_4
07-17-2017, 12:11 PM
This! Majority of Bostons success come 30+ years ago while the Heat have been one of the most if not the most successful teams the last decade or so.

Only because Boston's prior success was unmatched that this claim is SEMI true.

But in reality....Here's the rankings over the last 10 years

Top 10
Team - Wins - Loss - Championships
1. SAS - 564-223-1
2. BOS - 469-319-1
3. HOU - 469-320-0
4. DAL - 459-328-1
5. GSW - 452-336-2
6. OKC - 451-337-0
7. ATL - 448-340-0
8. MIA - 446-343-2
9. CHI - 443-345-0
10. DEN - 432-356-0

12. CLE 422-365-1
15. LAL 407-381-2

So yes, Miami certainly has been successful over the past 10 years...But so has Boston. Ranking #2 in total wins over the last 10 years and getting 1 less ring than Miami. All this without the GOAT coming to our team to win. Insinuating that Boston's success is all from 30+ years ago is completely false. Boston was the best team in NBA history 30 years ago. But in the past decade, they've still been very good. I'd say a top 5 franchise in the NBA over that span pretty easily.

AntiG
07-17-2017, 03:27 PM
First off...Completely false that they tried to trade Ray every year. That was not a thing.

Secondly...I fail to see how trade rumors impact a number being retired? Pierce was in trade rumors often as well yet he will undoubtedly have his number retired.

Retiring numbers has everything to do with impact on an organization. If you impact or change an organization to an extreme positive, you're going to get your number retired. Pierce clearly did that...Being one of the longest tenured Celtics in history and holding numbers that rank near the top of one of, if not the most, historied franchises in the NBA. More than that, Pierce started his career in one of the worst stretches in Celtic history and played for years on teams that were some of the worst in the NBA, yet he gutted it out and complained little. He took a team on his back to the ECF with the only other player worth anything on the roster was Antowan Walker...Which isn't much help. Pierce's legacy is clearly cemented and his impact cannot be overstated in getting the Celtics to where they are now, back to being one of the top teams in the NBA. Bringing a championship back to Boston after a 30 year drought was the icing on the cake.

Garnett's impact was huge as well. Despite not being the tenured member of the franchise like Pierce, Garnett had the MOST impact on that championship team. Not only was he the best player on the team (putting up an MVP worthy season) and completely changed the culture of the team. A culture that still exists today despite him being gone for nearly 5 years now. That's legacy worthy. Yes, Garnetts best years of his career were elsewhere, but his impact here can still be seen and that is why his number will also be retired. Changing the culture and bringing a championship to the city will land your number in the rafters for eternal glory.

Ray Allen did not have near the impact these other 2 did. Yes he was a key contributor to that championship no doubt. But he wasn't a vocal leader of the team, he wasn't a leading statistical contributor, and in all honestly, he wasn't well liked in the locker room. Yes the fans liked him while he was here, but Boston fans will like any player that succeeds in their arena. But if we're being honest, his role was nothing more than a supporting one on this team. He was part of the "big 3" because he had the name power. But his impact, I don't think, was that much greater than a James Posey or Leon Poe. They had their shining moments, but they did not carry the load. His ungrateful exit and the way he went about it pretty much sealed his fate. Boston is a very loyal city, Allen did not return that favor (which he had every right not to) and the city certainly isn't going to honor his jersey the same way they do to Pierce and Garnett. And I think that's deservedly so.

I don't personally have any feelings against Ray myself, but I'd say that Rondo was the #3 most deserving player to have his number retired of the "Big 3 era" in Boston. Ray while in reputation was the third member of the Big 3, but in reality, Rajon was the 3rd member of that Big 3 and Ray was a contributor but not a primary impact player. He basically had the same role in Miami that he had in Boston, which was why he was so frustrated behind the scenes in Boston and left the way he did.

#34, #5 and #9 deserve the most consideration of the era... I think only #34 and #5 get retired.

WaDe03
07-17-2017, 10:35 PM
Only because Boston's prior success was unmatched that this claim is SEMI true.

But in reality....Here's the rankings over the last 10 years

Top 10
Team - Wins - Loss - Championships
1. SAS - 564-223-1
2. BOS - 469-319-1
3. HOU - 469-320-0
4. DAL - 459-328-1
5. GSW - 452-336-2
6. OKC - 451-337-0
7. ATL - 448-340-0
8. MIA - 446-343-2
9. CHI - 443-345-0
10. DEN - 432-356-0

12. CLE 422-365-1
15. LAL 407-381-2

So yes, Miami certainly has been successful over the past 10 years...But so has Boston. Ranking #2 in total wins over the last 10 years and getting 1 less ring than Miami. All this without the GOAT coming to our team to win. Insinuating that Boston's success is all from 30+ years ago is completely false. Boston was the best team in NBA history 30 years ago. But in the past decade, they've still been very good. I'd say a top 5 franchise in the NBA over that span pretty easily.

It just hit me that the real GOAT won his first ring 11 years ago. Man, time flies.

LeonFSU
07-17-2017, 11:41 PM
First off...Completely false that they tried to trade Ray every year. That was not a thing.

Secondly...I fail to see how trade rumors impact a number being retired? Pierce was in trade rumors often as well yet he will undoubtedly have his number retired.

Retiring numbers has everything to do with impact on an organization. If you impact or change an organization to an extreme positive, you're going to get your number retired. Pierce clearly did that...Being one of the longest tenured Celtics in history and holding numbers that rank near the top of one of, if not the most, historied franchises in the NBA. More than that, Pierce started his career in one of the worst stretches in Celtic history and played for years on teams that were some of the worst in the NBA, yet he gutted it out and complained little. He took a team on his back to the ECF with the only other player worth anything on the roster was Antowan Walker...Which isn't much help. Pierce's legacy is clearly cemented and his impact cannot be overstated in getting the Celtics to where they are now, back to being one of the top teams in the NBA. Bringing a championship back to Boston after a 30 year drought was the icing on the cake.

Garnett's impact was huge as well. Despite not being the tenured member of the franchise like Pierce, Garnett had the MOST impact on that championship team. Not only was he the best player on the team (putting up an MVP worthy season) and completely changed the culture of the team. A culture that still exists today despite him being gone for nearly 5 years now. That's legacy worthy. Yes, Garnetts best years of his career were elsewhere, but his impact here can still be seen and that is why his number will also be retired. Changing the culture and bringing a championship to the city will land your number in the rafters for eternal glory.

Ray Allen did not have near the impact these other 2 did. Yes he was a key contributor to that championship no doubt. But he wasn't a vocal leader of the team, he wasn't a leading statistical contributor, and in all honestly, he wasn't well liked in the locker room. Yes the fans liked him while he was here, but Boston fans will like any player that succeeds in their arena. But if we're being honest, his role was nothing more than a supporting one on this team. He was part of the "big 3" because he had the name power. But his impact, I don't think, was that much greater than a James Posey or Leon Poe. They had their shining moments, but they did not carry the load. His ungrateful exit and the way he went about it pretty much sealed his fate. Boston is a very loyal city, Allen did not return that favor (which he had every right not to) and the city certainly isn't going to honor his jersey the same way they do to Pierce and Garnett. And I think that's deservedly so.

James Posey, Leon Powe? Are you ****ing kidding?

Oakmont_4
07-18-2017, 06:58 AM
James Posey, Leon Powe? Are you ****ing kidding?

Nope. Who's who.

10.8/2.3/6.4 - VORP 2.3 PER 12.0
19.8/0.7/10.1 - VORP 0.2 PER 20.9
17.5/3.1/3.7 - VORP 3.4 PER 16.4

Those are Posey, Powe and Ray. As I said, Ray was better, but not that much better.

For reference...KG and Pierce

20.7/3.8/10.1 - VORP 5.5 PER 25.3
19.7/4.5/5.1 - VORP 4.9 - PER 19.6

You tell me who Ray was closer too.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
07-18-2017, 08:44 AM
Celtics signed Paul Pierce so he can retire as a Celtic.

hugepatsfan
07-18-2017, 09:38 AM
Nope. Who's who.

10.8/2.3/6.4 - VORP 2.3 PER 12.0
19.8/0.7/10.1 - VORP 0.2 PER 20.9
17.5/3.1/3.7 - VORP 3.4 PER 16.4

Those are Posey, Powe and Ray. As I said, Ray was better, but not that much better.

For reference...KG and Pierce

20.7/3.8/10.1 - VORP 5.5 PER 25.3
19.7/4.5/5.1 - VORP 4.9 - PER 19.6

You tell me who Ray was closer too.

This is blasphemous. You can't throw up per 36 numbers. These don't count for the affect. You can't understate the impact Ray standing at the 3 point line has on how a defense plays. Leon Powe's per 36 scoring isn't drawing attention away from PP and KG. Ray's a HOFer and was still on the tail end of his prime there. It's absurd to suggest that Leon Powe or James Posey were in the same stratosphere of impact as him.

WaDe03
07-18-2017, 10:26 AM
This advanced stats era is such a shame.

Oakmont_4
07-18-2017, 01:21 PM
This is blasphemous. You can't throw up per 36 numbers. These don't count for the affect. You can't understate the impact Ray standing at the 3 point line has on how a defense plays. Leon Powe's per 36 scoring isn't drawing attention away from PP and KG. Ray's a HOFer and was still on the tail end of his prime there. It's absurd to suggest that Leon Powe or James Posey were in the same stratosphere of impact as him.

So a guy should have his number retired because of his impact not in making 3's but standing at the 3 point line?

You make it seem like Ray Allen was worlds better than Posey or Powe. He wasn't. Career wise, absolutely he was. He's a HOFer without question. We're not measuring careers here. Where measuring 1 season, and Ray Allens impact has been grossly overrated because of his name. He was still a good player, not saying he wasn't. He was better than Powe and Posey, I also stated that. But he was much closer to their impact than he was to KG and Pierces impact.

Maybe the C's should just call up Reggie Miller and have him stand at the 3 point line. He doesn't need to do anything else, just stand there. The threat of him making a 3 will have a huge impact despite not putting up numbers in an overly efficient manner.

hugepatsfan
07-18-2017, 01:32 PM
So a guy should have his number retired because of his impact not in making 3's but standing at the 3 point line?

You make it seem like Ray Allen was worlds better than Posey or Powe. He wasn't. Career wise, absolutely he was. He's a HOFer without question. We're not measuring careers here. Where measuring 1 season, and Ray Allens impact has been grossly overrated because of his name. He was still a good player, not saying he wasn't. He was better than Powe and Posey, I also stated that. But he was much closer to their impact than he was to KG and Pierces impact.

Maybe the C's should just call up Reggie Miller and have him stand at the 3 point line. He doesn't need to do anything else, just stand there. The threat of him making a 3 will have a huge impact despite not putting up numbers in an overly efficient manner.

I don't think we should retire his number but come on man. Comparing him to Posey and Powe? Absurd comparison. The guy was an all star and you're comparing him to bench players. Leon Powe played 14.4 minutes per game. You can't just throw up per 36 stats of him in a limited role vs. bench players and pretend that it's even remotely comparable to Ray Allen providing all star production. Comparing Ray Allen to Posey or Poe really isn't even a discussion worth entertaining. It's a ridiculous comparison. I know 07-8 wasn't the height of his career but he was still the third best SG in the NBA at that time (Kobe, Wade being top 2).

LeonFSU
07-18-2017, 03:03 PM
Nope. Who's who.

10.8/2.3/6.4 - VORP 2.3 PER 12.0
19.8/0.7/10.1 - VORP 0.2 PER 20.9
17.5/3.1/3.7 - VORP 3.4 PER 16.4

Those are Posey, Powe and Ray. As I said, Ray was better, but not that much better.

For reference...KG and Pierce

20.7/3.8/10.1 - VORP 5.5 PER 25.3
19.7/4.5/5.1 - VORP 4.9 - PER 19.6

You tell me who Ray was closer too.

I'll just point to Hugepatsfan's post above as my response to this.

Oakmont_4
07-18-2017, 03:26 PM
I don't think we should retire his number but come on man. Comparing him to Posey and Powe? Absurd comparison. The guy was an all star and you're comparing him to bench players. Leon Powe played 14.4 minutes per game. You can't just throw up per 36 stats of him in a limited role vs. bench players and pretend that it's even remotely comparable to Ray Allen providing all star production. Comparing Ray Allen to Posey or Poe really isn't even a discussion worth entertaining. It's a ridiculous comparison. I know 07-8 wasn't the height of his career but he was still the third best SG in the NBA at that time (Kobe, Wade being top 2).

I put little weight on being named to an All Star, it's a popularity contest and you know that as well as I do. As I've stated, Ray Allen was and is a HOFer. He made it as an All Star in name alone in 07-08.

2nd best SG in 07-08? Are you kidding me?

Uhhh Joe Johnson? 21.7/4.2/4.4 PER 17.3
Uhhh Brandon Roy? 19.1ppg/5.8/4.7 PER 19.4
Uhhh Vince Carter? 21.3ppg/5.1/6.0 PER 18.8

All EASILY better than Ray Allen in 07/08 (not career wise, but at this particular point in time)

I could also make arguments for Michael Redd, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Manu Ginobli, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson... All posted better numbers than Ray did

No...Sorry bud. Ray Allen was nowhere close to the 2nd best SG in 07/08. Not even close.

hugepatsfan
07-18-2017, 04:00 PM
I put little weight on being named to an All Star, it's a popularity contest and you know that as well as I do. As I've stated, Ray Allen was and is a HOFer. He made it as an All Star in name alone in 07-08.

2nd best SG in 07-08? Are you kidding me?

Uhhh Joe Johnson? 21.7/4.2/4.4 PER 17.3
Uhhh Brandon Roy? 19.1ppg/5.8/4.7 PER 19.4
Uhhh Vince Carter? 21.3ppg/5.1/6.0 PER 18.8

All EASILY better than Ray Allen in 07/08 (not career wise, but at this particular point in time)

I could also make arguments for Michael Redd, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Manu Ginobli, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson... All posted better numbers than Ray did

No...Sorry bud. Ray Allen was nowhere close to the 2nd best SG in 07/08. Not even close.

http://www.nba.com/preview2007/gmsurvey_players.html

GM survey entering 07-08. Ray Allen tied with Wade for 2nd best SG in the NBA.

http://www.nba.com/2008/tipoff/10/21/gmsurvey.players/

GM survey entering 08-09. Ray Allen and Wade listed as the "others receiving votes" behind Kobe.

Look, if you want to argue Johnson, Roy, Carter, or AI were better that's fine. In 06-07 Ray averaged 26/5/4 as SEA's #1 option so I think most people felt he was still better than those guys but put up lesser numbers because of circumstance playing with 2 other HOFers. But my point isn't to say he was without doubt #3 or #4 or #5 or #whatever. My point is that he was legitimately one of the best players at his position. It's INSANE to try and say he was a James Posey/Leon Powe type player. That's just BANANAS. Pierce and KG were clearly better players then and for their careers but that doesn't make him comparable to bench players.

Vee-Rex
07-18-2017, 04:06 PM
Someone needs to get C's fans to re-unite.

Danny Ainge is the worst GM in the league.

;)

Oakmont_4
07-18-2017, 04:32 PM
http://www.nba.com/preview2007/gmsurvey_players.html

GM survey entering 07-08. Ray Allen tied with Wade for 2nd best SG in the NBA.

http://www.nba.com/2008/tipoff/10/21/gmsurvey.players/

GM survey entering 08-09. Ray Allen and Wade listed as the "others receiving votes" behind Kobe.

Look, if you want to argue Johnson, Roy, Carter, or AI were better that's fine. In 06-07 Ray averaged 26/5/4 as SEA's #1 option so I think most people felt he was still better than those guys but put up lesser numbers because of circumstance playing with 2 other HOFers. But my point isn't to say he was without doubt #3 or #4 or #5 or #whatever. My point is that he was legitimately one of the best players at his position. It's INSANE to try and say he was a James Posey/Leon Powe type player. That's just BANANAS. Pierce and KG were clearly better players then and for their careers but that doesn't make him comparable to bench players.

My main point here.

Allen was closer to Posey and Powe than KG and Pierce. I'm not comparing Ray Allen to them, I'm saying he was closer to them at that point in his career than KG and Pierce. As I've stated multiple times now, Allen is/was better than Powe and Posey but his impact on the team was closer to them, than that of KG and Pierce

hugepatsfan
07-18-2017, 04:39 PM
Someone needs to get C's fans to re-unite.

Danny Ainge is the worst GM in the league.

;)

Here's the thing about BOS fans... they will absolutely rip their guys apart locally. Our media is hard on players, talk radio calls are constant complaining, etc. But a guy comes under national fire or an outsider criticizes and it's full rally mode.

It's like having a little brother... I can pick on him, but I'll knock anyone else who tries to out. :laugh2:

hugepatsfan
07-18-2017, 04:48 PM
My main point here.

Allen was closer to Posey and Powe than KG and Pierce. I'm not comparing Ray Allen to them, I'm saying he was closer to them at that point in his career than KG and Pierce. As I've stated multiple times now, Allen is/was better than Powe and Posey but his impact on the team was closer to them, than that of KG and Pierce

I think even that's a gross exaggeration but whatever. Your original statement was "But his impact, I don't think, was that much greater than a James Posey or Leon Powe." I think we can all agree that he was not on par with Pierce/KG and that he was ahead of Powe/Posey. But I think you're alone if you think Ray wasn't miles and miles and miles and more miles ahead of Posey/Powe level players.