PDA

View Full Version : All-Time Auction CHAMPIONSHIP (Monstars vs Team RR)



valade16
07-06-2017, 02:24 PM
Every year posters from PSD come together and do a secret auction of all players throughout NBA history attempting to make the best team and win the PSD NBA All-Time Auction Championship! This round is the Championship round! Please look over the teams and vote based on which team you think would win in a 7 game series.

Monstars is the higher seed and will have homecourt advantage:

Monstars:

PG: Chauncy Billups [36] / JoJo White [9] / Hal Greer [3]
SG: Sidney Moncrief [32] / Hal Greer [10] / Chauncy Billups [2]
SF: Larry Bird [34] / Connie Hawkins [10] / Sidney Moncreif [4]
PF: Elvin Hayes [30] / Larry Bird [6] / Tommy Heinsohn [6]
C: Ben Wallace [29] / Andrew Bynum [16] / Elvin Hayes [3]

vs

Team RR:

PG: Mike Conley
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Kawhi Leonard
PF: Dan Roundfield
C: Wes Unseld

B: Micheal Ray Richardson
B: Hersey Hawkins
B: Raja Bell
B: Toni Kukoc
B: Tyson Chandler

Redrum187
07-06-2017, 03:12 PM
This is perhaps the best case scenario matchup for Team RR and the worst case scenario matchup for the Monstars. Team RR has multiple defensive answers for Team Monstarsí #1 and #2 scorers while Team Monstars lacks the defensive personnel to slow down Michael Jordan and Kawhi Leonard.

Offense

Team RR plans to run an ultra fast pace game to exploit Team Monstarsí starters who arenít built for that style. Billups was more of a halfcourt offense PG, Bird was not fast for a SF, and Wallace got tired in fast pace games. This will drain Team Monstarsí energy which will have an adverse effect on their own offense.


We donít have to speculate about how well Sidney Moncrief will guard Michael Jordan because we can look at their head-to-head numbers.
http://i.imgur.com/kiYOOlV.png
I will concede Moncrief was a great defender. However, at 6í3, Moncrief proved he was incapable of doing anything to slow down Michael Jordan. In 22 games, Jordan exploded for 31.6 points, 6.2 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.3 blocks on .614 TS%. Whatís terrible is that Team Monstars canít have Billups guard Jordan instead: Billups had a similar build to Moncrief, but slower, and not nearly as good defensively. Monstars canít ask Bird to cover Jordan since Bird didnít even guard the quicker/more agile SFs of the NBA. Team Monstars has no one on the bench to slow Jordan down either.

Kawhi Leonard is going to run circles around Larry Bird. The reason Bird played SF was because Kevin McHale became so good they started him at PF. McHale was assigned to cover the more agile SFs because Bird struggled defending them (he would guard the PFs). Team RR welcomes Larry Bird sprinting up and down the court chasing Kawhi on defense. Bird was a really good defender, but it is being wasted guarding a player that is far too quick for him. This isnít even taking into account that in Kawhiís 3-year prime, he increases his scoring output (24.1 points per game) and increases his efficiency (.624 TS%). Kawhi also increases his 3 point %, shooting over 44% which is a higher playoff average than Stephen Curry. If Kawhi put those numbers up when teams specifically strategized for him and utilized their best perimeter defender on him, why wouldnít Kawhi score more points on even better efficiency in this matchup?

I will concede that Elvin Hayes was a good defender. He was 2x All DefenseÖ pretty good right? Well, we donít have to speculate how well Hayes would be guarding Roundfield because we can, once again, look at their head-to-head numbers.
http://i.imgur.com/1kBcDVI.png
They didnít include FGA, so we canít see that Roundfield scored 16.2 points more efficiently than Elvinís did his 18.8 points. This is my #3 or #4 scoring option keeping up with Team Monstarsí #2 scoring option. Dan ďfreakingĒ Roundfield was a more efficient scorer, a better and willing passer, and a team-first mentality. He isnít Duncan-lite for nothing.

In the Billups and Conley matchup, we have arguably the most overrated PG against the most underrated PG in NBA history. Letís compare their 3-year primes.
http://i.imgur.com/aXqLNBX.png
Their 3-year primes are virtually identical! Iíll concede Billups is the better player/career, but letís not act like itís a bigger gap than it really is. They have the same exact skillsets, the only difference is that Billups was constructed for a halfcourt team while Conley is quick enough to be haldcourt or fast pace. For Team RR, Conley will be the sniper that he is from 3 and control the offense secondarily. Billups will have to exert lots of energy to keep up with Conley. If Billups decides to try to double Jordan because Moncrief was incapable of slowing Jordan down then one can expect Conley to take full advantage of that.

Ben Wallace... This is another bad matchup for Team Monstars. Poor Ben Wallace excelled in defense against big dominant scoring machines. Big Ben becomes a complete waste of talent because Wes Unseld is not going to be called for a ton of points. The reason Wes Unseld won MVP and FMVP (over his teammate Elvin Hayes) was because of all the intangibles he provided on offense (and defense). Wes Unseld is arguably the greatest outlet passing big man in NBA history who would set the most bone crushing picks. Ben Wallace was a great rebounder who would use his body to bully people for the reboundsÖ that isnít happening with Wes Unseld. They had about the same rebound %, but the difference is Unseld contributed offensively. Unseld getting the rebounds would mean he can use his passing ability to initiate the fastbreak for Conley/Jordan/Kawhi and even Dan ďfreeingĒ Roundfield.


Defense


Team RR has Kawhi Leonard to guard Bird on defense. Kawhi is fast and strong enough to guard Bird and limit Team Monstarís only legitimate scorer. More than just Kawhi, Larry Bird himself accredited Michael Cooper and Dan Roundfield for giving him fits. There will be spots when Dan ďfreakingĒ Roundfield covers Bird and give him fits. I also see Jordan guarding Bird for a few key possessionsÖ His competitive nature would give Bird fits too. I expect Bird to get his points, but he isnít going to do it as easily or as efficient as he did in real life.

Elvin Hayes will be putting the nail in the coffin for Team Monstars. In Hayesí 3-year peak he averaged 28.2 points on 25.7 FGA, thatís a whopping .480 TS%! To put it into perspective, Antoine Walker was more efficient in his 3-year peak than Elvin Hayes was in his (Walker shot .496 TS%). There are probably only 2 things Walker wasnít called: 1.) late for dinner 2.) efficient.

So why should we give Elvin Hayes a pass? Because he played in 70ís and 80ís? Because he became the first popular PF to chuck so many shots? To be honest, Elvin Hayes is truly Team Monstarsí #1 scoring optionÖ In their 3-year peaks, Hayes averaged 25.7 shots to Larry Birdsí 20.6 shots and is quoted as saying, ďIím an all-star. Donít expect me to pass. Itís like asking Babe Ruth to bunt.Ē Team RR prays Hayes doesnít pass the ball just like he didnít pass it in real lifeÖ Dan Roundfield is up to the challenge of guarding this selfish chucker. Remember this?
http://i.imgur.com/SRLWNIB.png
Yes, Elvin "I'm Babe Ruth" Hayes was held to only 18.8 points in 25 head-to-head games. If only they listed the FGA, we would see how much more inefficient he was when Dan guarded him. Hayes was a 2x All Defense player who only scores 2.6 points more (probably on worse efficiency though) Roundfield who isnít Team RRís #1 or #2 option. Roundfieldís 5x All Defense is just better. To make matters worse for Team Monstars, Tyson Chandler will come and play backup duty on defense on Hayes.

I posted the 3-year peak of Conley and Billups which were virtually identical. Billups isnít going to exploit Conley (who is also an All Defense player). Furthermore, Team RR has Micheal Ray Richardson on the bench to smother Billups even more if he gets hot. Micheal Ray bigger, taller, longer, and an even better defender than Conley.

I posted the head-to-head numbers of Jordan and Moncrief. Moncrief and his less than 15 points against Jordan's elite defense isn't going to provide much relief for Larry Bird.

I suppose there isnít much to say about playing defense on Ben Wallace. I meanÖ itís essentially 5 on 4 when Team RR is on defense. Ben Wallace is such a negative on offense he hurts his team tremendously. Just as Wallace wastes his defense guarding a non-scorer, Ben Wallace is a waste on offense for Team Monstars. Unseld was a great defender who had the size to defend Wallace in the post. However, Unseld will more than likely sag off Wallace and play help defense. Team Monstars canít even have Wallace in during crucial points of the game because he was a less than 40% free throw shooterÖ I have multiple players who average a higher 3 point % than Wallace does free throw %...


Bench


Team Monstars bench is absolutely rotten. I have respect for older players for their contribution to the game, but not when they score as many points as FGA they take.

Team RR has Micheal Ray Richardson to come in and carry the fast pace offense, defend, rebound, make playsÖ Hersey Hawkins will be the sparkplug who is hyper efficient and a 3 point sniper. Tyson Chandler (DPOY) will sprint the floor, rebound, play excellent help defense, hit his free throws, and catch the lobs for easy slams in transition.

Conclusion


Jordan (DPOY) limited Sidney Moncrief to under 15 points, Billups averaged 17.5 points but likely less with Conley/Micheal Ray covering him, Ben Wallace is an absolute negative on offense, Hayes is the #2 who will act like heís the #1 taking shots away from Bird and was limited by Dan Roundfield to under 19 points per game, and Kawhi (DPOY) slowing Bird down will not be enough offense. Especially when we take into account the pace of the game that Team RR plans to play which will require more out of the Monstars starters.

Team RR blasts through Squid, Kawhi turns it up in the playoffs against a slower Bird, Dan almost matched Hayes in points but on better efficiency, Conley matches Billups points, and Wes outplays Wallace will be the reason why they win the Championship.

Redrum187
07-06-2017, 05:17 PM
I forgot to add... Jordan doesn't lose in the NBA Finals... Kawhi won't let him.

KnicksorBust
07-06-2017, 08:16 PM
Great writeup. Wes Unseld was a league MVP. He should be considered an advantage to Big Ben. It is a waste of Wallace too bc his value comes on a low volume of offensive touches. The head2heads for MJ-Squid and Roundfield-Hayes are strong in favor of team RR. Kawhi/Roundfield is a great duo to put on his best player.

Gotta admit I am curious if Monstars has a rebuttal. If he doesn't the Jordan team should win. He is the GOAT for a reason.

GREATNESS ONE
07-06-2017, 08:20 PM
I'm on team RR

Super.
07-06-2017, 09:47 PM
Bird is still better than Kawhi. Theres your rebuttal. I already beat a better defender in Rodman.

The rest of my team destroys his and its not close. Post all the numbers you want but Hayes and Chauncey are far better than their counterparts.

Or just see Jordan and vote for him, as everyone has done thus far for RR's massively overrated squad. 2 guys cant do everything.

Redrum187
07-06-2017, 09:53 PM
Bird is still better than Kawhi. Theres your rebuttal. I already beat a better defender in Rodman.

The rest of my team destroys his and its not close. Post all the numbers you want but Hayes and Chauncey are far better than their counterparts.

Or just see Jordan and vote for him, as everyone has done thus far for RR's massively overrated squad. 2 guys cant do everything.

I mean, saying they are better doesn't really make them better... If in real life Hayes was a .460 TS% scorer, taking more shots than Larry Bird... and only scoring 18 points against 4x Defender Roundfield... good grief, that is terrible for Team Monstars...

Just as importantly (if not more so), who the hell stops Jordan? We know Squid couldn't get it done... Billups and Bird are incapable of doing that too. How does Bird defend Kawhi?!

Super.
07-06-2017, 11:42 PM
Jordan is the only person on your team that can score. Everyone else is below the Mendoza line.

Jordan can't do everything

Redrum187
07-06-2017, 11:47 PM
Jordan is the only person on your team that can score. Everyone else is below the Mendoza line.

Jordan can't do everything

Kawhi didn't score 24+ ppg on .620+ TS%, 44%+ from 3 (which is higher than Curry's) in his 3-year playoff peak?

Dan "freaking" Roundfield didn't score only 2 fewer points than what he held Hayes to (not to mention, we know Hayes had a 3-year peak .460 TS%)?

Conley didn't score 17 points per game just like Billups in his 3-year peak?

Squid didn't average less than 15 points per game head-to-head when Jordan smothered him?

Ben Wallace didn't average 7.0 points per game in his 3-year peak which is less than half of Wes Unseld's 3-year peak?

You can't explain how Squid will magically limit Jordan now... or how Bird is going to have the stamina and quickness to guard Kawhi for 40 minutes a game...

Super.
07-06-2017, 11:52 PM
Bird's defense is more than enough to stop Kawhi.

Jordan can't win the game by himself on offense

GREATNESS ONE
07-06-2017, 11:52 PM
Kawhi on the defensive end locks up Bird and it's funny to think otherwise.


I watched Bird live, he's never seen a 2015-2017 Kawhi Leondard before. Lol Rodman.... great defender but woulda been better in this era

Super.
07-07-2017, 12:06 AM
Rodman is a better defender, and he already lost to Bird earlier in the game

Jordan still cant win the game by himself on offense

Redrum187
07-07-2017, 12:09 AM
Rodman is a better defender, and he already lost to Bird earlier in the game

Jordan still cant win the game by himself on offense

You keep saying that... but how is Bird going to defend Kawhi? Do you really think Bird could keep up with Kawhi offensively? I agree Bird was a good defender... but you realize McHale guarded the faster and smaller forward right? Do you know why? Because he couldn't keep up with them... Kawhi isn't just a typical smaller forward, he is ultra quick and very offensively potent.

Also, if "Jordan can't do it all himself"... How is Bird going to do it all by himself when his cast scores fewer points than Team RR's cast collectively? This isn't even including the bench where you have a tremendous disadvantage there too.

On offense, you're playing 4 on 5... And against elite defenders who shut your number 2 and number 3 down in real life... not hypothetical or imaginary...

Redrum187
07-07-2017, 12:16 AM
Rodman is a better defender, and he already lost to Bird earlier in the game

Jordan still cant win the game by himself on offense

:facepalm: If you plan to play Bird in the post with Antoine Walker aka Elvin Hayes (your true #1 scorer) and Ben Wallace... then I can see how Rodman would be better defending him. If you plan to play Bird at SF and create more space (like he did when McHale was inserted into the starting line up), then Kawhi is the better defender. Kawhi is right there with Pippen in terms of greatest perimeter defenders of all time.

Also, you're missing a key component about Rodman's game... He, like Ben Wallace, are absolute NEGATIVES on the offensive end. Bird is going to be huffing and puffing trying to keep up with Kawhi on defense... You're saying Bird will keep up with Team RR's fast pace offense, chase Kawhi for 40 minutes a game, AND score enough points to overcome Dan holding ELvin to 18 points, Jordan holding Squid to 14 points, and Ben only scoring 7 points? If Bird could do that in real life, he would be the GOAT instead of Michael Jordan.

Super.
07-07-2017, 12:57 AM
Bird is going to huffing and puffing to keep up with Kawhi?

:laugh:

Redrum187
07-07-2017, 01:02 AM
Bird is going to huffing and puffing to keep up with Kawhi?

:laugh:

... Yes? Do you really not know Bird's history when he moved from PF to SF and how he was able to do that?

I'm curious to know what your answers for the questions in post #9 are.


Kawhi didn't score 24+ ppg on .620+ TS%, 44%+ from 3 (which is higher than Curry's) in his 3-year playoff peak?

Dan "freaking" Roundfield didn't score only 2 fewer points than what he held Hayes to (not to mention, we know Hayes had a 3-year peak .460 TS%)?

Conley didn't score 17 points per game just like Billups in his 3-year peak?

Squid didn't average less than 15 points per game head-to-head when Jordan smothered him?

Ben Wallace didn't average 7.0 points per game in his 3-year peak which is less than half of Wes Unseld's 3-year peak?

You can't explain how Squid will magically limit Jordan now... or how Bird is going to have the stamina and quickness to guard Kawhi for 40 minutes a game...

KnicksorBust
07-07-2017, 12:18 PM
Bird is still better than Kawhi. Theres your rebuttal. I already beat a better defender in Rodman.

The rest of my team destroys his and its not close. Post all the numbers you want but Hayes and Chauncey are far better than their counterparts.

Or just see Jordan and vote for him, as everyone has done thus far for RR's massively overrated squad. 2 guys cant do everything.

But Jordan is better than Bird. Kawhi is better than Moncrief. Unseld is better than Wallace. Roundfield played Hayes to a draw. And Monstars bench is hot garbage. Monstars was my fave team and I am happy to see Super has a pulse for the Finals but I am voting for RR because my next post.

KnicksorBust
07-07-2017, 12:19 PM
Rodman is a better defender, and he already lost to Bird earlier in the game

Jordan still cant win the game by himself on offense

You keep saying that... but how is Bird going to defend Kawhi? Do you really think Bird could keep up with Kawhi offensively? I agree Bird was a good defender... but you realize McHale guarded the faster and smaller forward right? Do you know why? Because he couldn't keep up with them... Kawhi isn't just a typical smaller forward, he is ultra quick and very offensively potent.

Also, if "Jordan can't do it all himself"... How is Bird going to do it all by himself when his cast scores fewer points than Team RR's cast collectively? This isn't even including the bench where you have a tremendous disadvantage there too.

On offense, you're playing 4 on 5... And against elite defenders who shut your number 2 and number 3 down in real life... not hypothetical or imaginary...

This post got my vote. I vote for RR.

Super.
07-07-2017, 04:21 PM
Most overrated team I have ever seen.

Jordan & Kawhi and a bunch of lower tier guys.

But people love Kawhi and people love Jordan so thats what people vote for.

Also RR your team is too ISO, they'll never win

Redrum187
07-07-2017, 05:11 PM
Most overrated team I have ever seen.

Jordan & Kawhi and a bunch of lower tier guys.

But people love Kawhi and people love Jordan so thats what people vote for.

Also RR your team is too ISO, they'll never win

You (and others) are saying it's overrated because Jordan and Kawhi... Yet you are underrating the hell out of my other MVP and FMVP in Wes Unseld, Dan Roundfield, Mike Conley, Micheal Ray Richardson, and Hersey Hawkins.

If anyone is overrated it's Chauncey Billups and Elvin Hayes. He put up virtually identical stats to Conley (both are good defensively). The reason we overrate Billups is because he was apart of one of the greatest defensive teams in Detroit when he won a championship and most of us grew up watching basketball around that time (or before).

You can't just pretend Dan Roundfield didn't limit Hayes in their head-to-head games (I posted the numbers). You can't pretend Bird is going to be able to chase Kawhi for 40 minutes a game and carry Team Monstars offense... He is literally the only guy that will be getting over 20 a game, but he has to do it with Kawhi guarding him the bulk of the time.

You say my team is iso heavy? Kawhi is fantastic off-the-ball, so is Conley... 40% from 3 in the regular season and over 40% in the playoffs. Then Hersey Hawkins who was also a 3D SG is another 40% 3 point shooter who averaged 20 points in his 3-year peak. Team RR actually prefers to play fast pace as opposed to iso because Team Monstars are unable to match up defensively against them.

Your offense on the other hand... Hayes is your number 1 option... He takes more shots than Bird. It's like the OKC when Westbrook took more shot attempts than Durant... Sorry, Westbrook is considered the #1 option when he clearly takes more shots than Durant. However, Westbrook is actually a WILLING passer. Hayes compares himself to passing as Babe Ruth bunting... To make matters worse, if Billups controls the ball, he only has Bird to hit a 3 (but Kawhi will be on him)... If Bird controls the ball, he only has Billups to pass it to for a kick out 3 (who Conley/Micheal Ray Richardson will be guarding). Do you plan to have Hayes just jack up 26 inefficient 2-point shots like he did in his prime against a 5x All Defense guy who limited him to 18 ppg in real life?

Super.
07-07-2017, 05:31 PM
You can't pretend Bird is going to be able to chase Kawhi for 40 minutes a game and carry Team Monstars offense

Like when he did that for the entire 80s against the ****ing showtime Lakers of all teams? :laugh2:

Redrum187
07-07-2017, 05:43 PM
Like when he did that for the entire 80s against the ****ing showtime Lakers of all teams? :laugh2:

Larry Bird had an actual cohesive team around him... You have a black hole on offense at your 5, a guy shut down by Dan Roundfield at the 4, a guy Jordan shut down to fewer than 15 ppg at your 2, and your 1 had identical stats in his 3-year peak as Team RR's 1.

Kawhi isn't some slow-footed offensive player... you say he's overrated but are you sure you aren't underrating him?

GREATNESS ONE
07-07-2017, 06:00 PM
The 80's or before athletes are at such a disadvantage. The way these athletes are built nowadays is way beyond 30+ years ago.

Bird would hang with BBall IQ but ultimately he's alone trying to score and stop Kawhi/MJ

dhopisthename
07-07-2017, 07:39 PM
if this isn't call to ban the most overrated player in these games then I don't know what is.

Redrum187
07-07-2017, 08:16 PM
if this isn't call to ban the most overrated player in these games then I don't know what is.

I don't want Billups and Hayes banned...

valade16
07-07-2017, 08:33 PM
if this isn't call to ban the most overrated player in these games then I don't know what is.

Ironically Auctions were billed as more fair because the talent would even put but the first 2 games were won by an MJ team (if he wins here). So it seems to have the opposite effect of a re-draft.

If we do Auctions people need to bid more on MJ.

KnicksorBust
07-07-2017, 11:01 PM
if this isn't call to ban the most overrated player in these games then I don't know what is.

If we do Auctions people need to bid more on MJ.

MJ - Shaq - KAJ- Hakeem. The fact that people havent figured that out yet is insane.

KnicksorBust
07-07-2017, 11:02 PM
if this isn't call to ban the most overrated player in these games then I don't know what is.

Ironically Auctions were billed as more fair because the talent would even put but the first 2 games were won by an MJ team (if he wins here). So it seems to have the opposite effect of a re-draft.

If we do Auctions people need to bid more on MJ.

Hey Valade who were the two best players on your all-time team that won last time? :)

Raps18-19 Champ
07-07-2017, 11:59 PM
Is this going to be RR's first untainted title?

Redrum187
07-08-2017, 12:04 AM
Is this going to be RR's first untainted title?

Third, hopefully.

KnicksorBust
07-08-2017, 07:07 AM
Score?

Lucky.
07-08-2017, 09:52 AM
You guys absolutely need to go back to banning MJ in these games. There's no "you need to bid more on MJ!"

Look at the team RR put around MJ, aside from Kawhi, of course. If he spent more on MJ he'd still be able to create a similar team with less cash to spend. Half of you probably didn't even know who Dan Roundfield was before this game. That's not to say he's a bad player, but if you can draft a player half the league doesn't even know, to go along with two starters that are probably near the bottom at their position in an ATRD, it doesn't matter what you spend on MJ.

Hey, congrats to RR if he pulls it off, but if this doesn't convince you that MJ should be banned, I don't know what will.

dhopisthename
07-08-2017, 10:13 AM
Ironically Auctions were billed as more fair because the talent would even put but the first 2 games were won by an MJ team (if he wins here). So it seems to have the opposite effect of a re-draft.

If we do Auctions people need to bid more on MJ.

well you had hakeem, this team has jordan, kawhi and 3 guys who shouldn't even be starters. This is supposed to be the point of auctions that sure you can get jordan, but the rest of your lineup will suck. However people have such a hardon for jordan its insane.

Super.
07-08-2017, 11:57 AM
muh jordanz

so sad people just get tunnel vision.

Redrum187
07-08-2017, 12:16 PM
well you had hakeem, this team has jordan, kawhi and 3 guys who shouldn't even be starters. This is supposed to be the point of auctions that sure you can get jordan, but the rest of your lineup will suck. However people have such a hardon for jordan its insane.

So Wes Unseld isn't a starter but he was MVP/FMVP... but Ben Wallace is?

Dan Roundfield holding his own against Hayes irl with 5x All Defense on better efficiency isn't a starter, but Elvin Hayes averaging .460 TS%, 25.7 shots to get 28 points and literally said he isn't passing the ball (Bird is his #2 scorer) IS a starter?

Billups is a starter but a guy who put up virtually identical stats in the 3-year peak isn't a starter?

Sounds like people are crying about MJ being overrated and ask for him to be banned while they are underrating the hell out of past legends.

KnicksorBust
07-08-2017, 01:03 PM
You guys absolutely need to go back to banning MJ in these games. There's no "you need to bid more on MJ!"

Look at the team RR put around MJ, aside from Kawhi, of course. If he spent more on MJ he'd still be able to create a similar team with less cash to spend. Half of you probably didn't even know who Dan Roundfield was before this game. That's not to say he's a bad player, but if you can draft a player half the league doesn't even know, to go along with two starters that are probably near the bottom at their position in an ATRD, it doesn't matter what you spend on MJ.

Hey, congrats to RR if he pulls it off, but if this doesn't convince you that MJ should be banned, I don't know what will.

B.S. If the other GMs bid correctly and RR needed to bid more on MJ than he doesn't get Kawhi Leonard. Also he turned Michael Ray Richardson and Mark Aguirre into league MVP Wes Unseld and DPOY Tyson Chandler with trades. He got the GOAT at a discount. Made a great value buy with Kawhi. And made 2 killer trades to solidify his frontcourt. Sounds like how you win a redraft/auction.

Lucky.
07-08-2017, 01:53 PM
B.S. If the other GMs bid correctly and RR needed to bid more on MJ than he doesn't get Kawhi Leonard. Also he turned Michael Ray Richardson and Mark Aguirre into league MVP Wes Unseld and DPOY Tyson Chandler with trades. He got the GOAT at a discount. Made a great value buy with Kawhi. And made 2 killer trades to solidify his frontcourt. Sounds like how you win a redraft/auction.

I wasn't in this game so I don't know how any team was built.

This just seems like an underwhelming team to win, in my opinion. Again, props to RR if he pulls it off. Nothing against him, just MJ.

Mr. Baller
07-08-2017, 02:08 PM
Voted for the monstars because that MJ team isnt good

valade16
07-08-2017, 02:32 PM
MJ - Shaq - KAJ- Hakeem. The fact that people havent figured that out yet is insane.

After the mock off-season we are doing an All-Time Redraft except no MVP winners are allowed. So no MJ/Shaq/Kareem/Rose etc.

Should be really fun.


Hey Valade who were the two best players on your all-time team that won last time? :)

Hmmm... can't remember :)


B.S. If the other GMs bid correctly and RR needed to bid more on MJ than he doesn't get Kawhi Leonard. Also he turned Michael Ray Richardson and Mark Aguirre into league MVP Wes Unseld and DPOY Tyson Chandler with trades. He got the GOAT at a discount. Made a great value buy with Kawhi. And made 2 killer trades to solidify his frontcourt. Sounds like how you win a redraft/auction.

Getting that second star seems to be paramount. Also, Kawhi is essentially re-creating MJ/Pippen and it's tough to see that losing.

Redrum187
07-08-2017, 02:34 PM
Instead of just saying a player is "overrated", why not go into depth and address substantive criticisms and points I've brought to light?

I'm asking questions, pointing out historical facts (not hypothetical or simulated) between players and no one, not even Team Monstars, is refuting any criticisms about Elvin Hayes being their true #1 option. I get it... you think some of Team RR's players are overrated... okay, can we get back to the game where we actually discuss legitimate points?

I don't understand how "so-and-so is overrated" is an actual rebuttal for Hayes being the #1 scoring option over Bird, Ben Wallace a black hole on offense, Hayes being shut down by Dan in real life, Jordan limiting Squid to fewer than 15 points, Billups having a virtual identical 3-year peak to Mike Conley, and how Monstar's bench is dog**** compared to Team RR's.

Super.
07-08-2017, 02:36 PM
Instead of just saying a player is "overrated", why not go into depth and address substantive criticisms and points I've brought to light?

I'm asking questions, pointing out historical facts (not hypothetical or simulated) between players and no one, not even Team Monstars, is refuting any criticisms about Elvin Hayes being their true #1 option. I get it... you think some of Team RR's players are overrated... okay, can we get back to the game where we actually discuss legitimate points?

I don't understand how "so-and-so is overrated" is an actual rebuttal for Hayes being the #1 scoring option over Bird, Ben Wallace a black hole on offense, Hayes being shut down by Dan in real life, Jordan cutting off Squid's tentacles (less than 15 points per game in real life), Billups having a virtual identical 3-year peak to Mike Conley, and how Monstar's bench is dog**** compared to Team RR's.

3 of your starters are dog **** compared to mine.

But MUH JORDANZ

Redrum187
07-08-2017, 02:41 PM
3 of your starters are dog **** compared to mine.

But MUH JORDANZ

... So no actual data or substantive evidence to help support this? Just more opinions we are expected to take as fact?

Jordan > Bird = no one would refute this or I will provide data if I need to lol
Kawhi > Squid = no one would refute this, I will provide data if I need to
Unseld > Ben = Unseld is an MVP and FMVP. Wallace was a better defender than Unseld but he was absolutely garbage on offense. A team with Wallace plays 4 on 5 offensively. Unseld was a good defender (not as good as Ben), but he brought WAY more to the offensive end... not just from a scoring perspective (which he isn't intended to be), but a terrific rebounder with amazing outlet passing to initiate the break, he had a motor that wouldn't stop, he bone crushing picks... and he was more efficient than Elvin Hayes...

Sadds The Gr8
07-08-2017, 02:42 PM
Most overrated team I have ever seen.

Jordan & Kawhi and a bunch of lower tier guys.

But people love Kawhi and people love Jordan so thats what people vote for.

Also RR your team is too ISO, they'll never win

yea can't believe they're gonna win this lol. Just 2 players pretty much...prolly the worst team to win a ATRD since I've been playing

Sadds The Gr8
07-08-2017, 02:43 PM
You guys absolutely need to go back to banning MJ in these games. There's no "you need to bid more on MJ!"

Look at the team RR put around MJ, aside from Kawhi, of course. If he spent more on MJ he'd still be able to create a similar team with less cash to spend. Half of you probably didn't even know who Dan Roundfield was before this game. That's not to say he's a bad player, but if you can draft a player half the league doesn't even know, to go along with two starters that are probably near the bottom at their position in an ATRD, it doesn't matter what you spend on MJ.

Hey, congrats to RR if he pulls it off, but if this doesn't convince you that MJ should be banned, I don't know what will.

yea MJ needs to go back to being banned for sure

Redrum187
07-08-2017, 03:40 PM
https://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/8/22/3258406/elvin-hayes-jack-marin-trade-washington-bullets


Most coaches admitted they would rather take arsenic than Elvin Hayes. His reputation was that of a man with a fragile ego who alternately stormed and sulked at criticism, who was sometimes sullen with his teammates and coaches, who could cause dissension in the Partridge family. At the press conference announcing the deal, Shue was asked if it was strictly one-for-one. "No," he replied, "we get Elvin's psychiatrist, too." -- Peter Carey, Sports Illustrated

:no:

Super.
07-08-2017, 05:19 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/471875-blashpemy-the-truth-about-michael-jeffery-jordan


In the locker room Michael Jordan resorted to trying to embarrass Cartwright in front of the team. He was offensive to the point that afterward, Cartwright pulled him to the side and said

"Look, if you ever do anything like that again, you will never play basketball again because I will break both of your legs."

Guess Jordan's toxicity will bring your locker room down too

KnicksorBust
07-08-2017, 06:40 PM
Never got an update. Score?

Redrum187
07-08-2017, 06:47 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/471875-blashpemy-the-truth-about-michael-jeffery-jordan



Guess Jordan's toxicity will bring your locker room down too

I'll live with Jordan's "toxicity" and 2x 3-peats, 6 rings, DPOY, 5x MVP, 6x FMVP, 9x All Defense as opposed to Elvin Hayes will take more shots than Bird on .460 TS% like he did in his 3-year peak and refused to pass the ball because it was like Babe Ruth bunting... There is a reason Unseld beat out Hayes for Finals Most Valuable Player...

Redrum187
07-08-2017, 06:50 PM
Never got an update. Score?

Tie game, 10-10.

valade16
07-08-2017, 08:29 PM
Tie game, 10-10.

Actually with KoB's vote you are up 11-10.

Ebbs
07-09-2017, 05:55 PM
You guys absolutely need to go back to banning MJ in these games. There's no "you need to bid more on MJ!"

Look at the team RR put around MJ, aside from Kawhi, of course. If he spent more on MJ he'd still be able to create a similar team with less cash to spend. Half of you probably didn't even know who Dan Roundfield was before this game. That's not to say he's a bad player, but if you can draft a player half the league doesn't even know, to go along with two starters that are probably near the bottom at their position in an ATRD, it doesn't matter what you spend on MJ.

Hey, congrats to RR if he pulls it off, but if this doesn't convince you that MJ should be banned, I don't know what will.

:clap:

Redrum187
07-09-2017, 06:15 PM
For a time Microsoft had a pseudo-monopoly when it came to operating systems. Universities, schools, homes, etc... all used windows. Now, it wasn't a true monopoly because there were other operating systems available but they weren't as mainstream yet (hopefully this doesn't go over everyone's head).

Having said that, it's ridiculous to ban the greatest player of all time in an auction setting where the market (the GM's bidding) set the value of what MJ is... If someone spent $173 on MJ and filled the other 9 roster spots with $3 minimum guys, it would greatly hinder that person's chances of competing... even if they got Dan "freaking" Roundfield and Hersey Hawkins at an absolute $3 steal each.

You can make the case in an ATRD snake format, but not in an auction. Quit complaining about MJ being so powerful, and bid what you think he is worth. It's that simple.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-09-2017, 07:49 PM
Third, hopefully.

I'm talking about clean wins.

Sadds The Gr8
07-09-2017, 11:34 PM
I'm talking about clean wins.

lol

Super.
07-10-2017, 11:00 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/member.php?334209-Ahriman

Vote doesnt count because he doesnt have 100 posts correct?

Redrum187
07-10-2017, 11:04 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/member.php?334209-Ahriman

Vote doesnt count because he doesnt have 100 posts correct?

Correct.

Super.
07-10-2017, 11:15 PM
Correct.

iight, tie ball game

Redrum187
07-10-2017, 11:33 PM
iight, tie ball game

capnwalnut's doesn't count either though. He has less than 20 votes.

Super.
07-10-2017, 11:51 PM
capnwalnut's doesn't count either though. He has less than 20 votes.

He's participated in previous games and has the approval of Valade.

Redrum187
07-10-2017, 11:52 PM
He's participated in previous games and has the approval of Valade.

Yes, I remember now, he was the Dr. J team.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-11-2017, 01:33 AM
The man made a dupe to vote...

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 02:02 AM
The man made a dupe to vote...

Totes.

tredigs
07-11-2017, 01:26 PM
Team RR. Better team, better write-up, better rebuttals. Open/shut case here.

Dunkapolooza
07-11-2017, 02:14 PM
For me it comes down to unseld vs hayes. And Conley vs billups. Leonard is better then moncrief. And Jordan is better then bird. So that's the only chance to catch rr. Conley barely makes this game to me. Probably the worst starting pg. Billups though is probably the most overrated pg. He's better, but not by much. And unseld is one of the most underrated players in this. Not even one of the best passing big men could give hayes a good efg. I don't trust him as a number 2 option with a great defender on him. And unseld was arguably considered better than hayes by their peers at the time.

Getting cheap undervalued talent like unseld is all that saved this team.

As far as write up goes monsters I'm betting could have helped themselves by going to the head to head game logs and doing only games in their peaks.

dhopisthename
07-11-2017, 02:45 PM
Leonard is better then moncrief.

is he?

21.1-6-4 .598 ts% 39.2 win shares 16.5 vorp
vs
21-6-3 .601 ts% 36 win shares 16.2 vorp

both won defensive player of the year twice. Kahwi is better in his peak for sure, but in this game it's probably way closer than anyone has made it. Don't forget that kawhi has his 4th in this for his 3 year prime.

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 02:56 PM
is he?

21.1-6-4 .598 ts% 39.2 win shares 16.5 vorp
vs
21-6-3 .601 ts% 36 win shares 16.2 vorp

both won defensive player of the year twice. Kahwi is better in his peak for sure, but in this game it's probably way closer than anyone has made it. Don't forget that kawhi has his 4th in this for his 3 year prime.

You ask "is he" and then concede he is [but that it's close]. I think what makes Kawhi better (by a good gap too) than Squid is he is more versatile as a defender and a more dynamic scorer. The gap from Kawhi to Squid is bigger than Billups to Conley.

Kawhi can guard 1-3 without a doubt but is also capable of guarding the smaller PF's. Squid was a good G defender who wasn't as versatile or wouldn't maintain his standard of defense if he had to spend the majority of his time guarding Forwards.

I agree, Squid is underrated offensively, but he didn't have the post-game or the range Kawhi has. That isn't to say Squid wouldn't have developed it if he played today... maybe, maybe not. Kawhi's playoff numbers are actually noticeably superior to his regular season stats. It reminds me of the way Dirk played in the regular season/postseason... they turned it up. Kawhi's 3-year playoff peak are absurdly better (it's not even close honestly... check for yourself).

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 03:01 PM
By the way, congratulations to Super on making it to the finals! It was a fun match up. :clap:

dhopisthename
07-11-2017, 03:11 PM
You ask "is he" and then concede he is [but that it's close]. I think what makes Kawhi better (by a good gap too) than Squid is he is more versatile as a defender and a more dynamic scorer. The gap from Kawhi to Squid is bigger than Billups to Conley.

Kawhi can guard 1-3 without a doubt but is also capable of guarding the smaller PF's. Squid was a good G defender who wasn't as versatile or wouldn't maintain his standard of defense if he had to spend the majority of his time guarding Forwards.

I agree, Squid is underrated offensively, but he didn't have the post-game or the range Kawhi has. That isn't to say Squid wouldn't have developed it if he played today... maybe, maybe not. Kawhi's playoff numbers are actually noticeably superior to his regular season stats. It reminds me of the way Dirk played in the regular season/postseason... they turned it up. Kawhi's 3-year playoff peak are absurdly better (it's not even close honestly... check for yourself).

why would defensive versatility matter at all? Moncrief will probably shadow Jordan and Kawhi will shadow Bird. Also Kawhi is your 2nd option while Moncrief is his 3rd option. what boggles my mind is that if Moncrief to kawhi is even close then how is this a matchup at all? the Monstars have an awesome defender for Jordan and are better at 4/5 of the other positions.

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 03:18 PM
why would defensive versatility matter at all? Moncrief will probably shadow Jordan and Kawhi will shadow Bird. Also Kawhi is your 2nd option while Moncrief is his 3rd option. what boggles my mind is that if Moncrief to kawhi is even close then how is this a matchup at all? the Monstars have an awesome defender for Jordan and are better at 4/5 of the other positions.

This should boggle your mind more then...

Hayes has shown and stated he isn't going to pass the ball, taking 26 shots a game to score 28 points to Bird's 20 shot attempts a game. So we can justifiably state that Hayes is Monstar's #1 option. To say otherwise is to ignore history/reality. Dan Roundfield held his own against Hayes in head-to-head games (I wish they showed FGA in the head-to-head match ups). So Team RR's 3rd or 4th option is on par with Monstar's #1 option.

However, Dunka made a good point earlier... To my advantage, people wanted to use words like "overrated" instead of argue substance and address criticisms/points.

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 03:20 PM
And you asked why defensive versatility matters... Because you questioned if Kawhi is superior to Squid? I pointed out how Kawhi is not only a better defender (because he's versatile) but pointed out how much more dynamic he is offensively. And then when we compare 3-year post peaks... Kawhi shuts it down.

GREATNESS ONE
07-11-2017, 04:03 PM
Team RedRum!!! Woooooo Congrats on the victory!

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 04:06 PM
Team RedRum!!! Woooooo Congrats on the victory!

Thanks brotha! You believed in me from the start! <3

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 04:08 PM
I think Jordan shares his Finals MVP with Dan "freaking" Roundfield though.

Jeffy25
07-11-2017, 05:45 PM
I'm late, but Jordan and KL on the same line together would be insane.

KnicksorBust
07-11-2017, 06:19 PM
I think Jordan shares his Finals MVP with Dan "freaking" Roundfield though.

:laugh: im dying

Redrum187
07-11-2017, 07:10 PM
:laugh: im dying

:laugh2: I'm just curious if I had any sort of positive impact on Dan moving forward in the ATRD. No way is Elvin Hayes significantly better than him (if at all even). Since they started doing OBPM, Hayes only had 4 seasons where he didn't have a negative OBPM... not #2 scoring material whatsoever. Dan sort of saved me in all seriousness.

valade16
07-11-2017, 10:37 PM
:laugh: im dying

Scottie Pippen couldn't win a single Finals MVP in 6 tries with MJ, Dan Roundfield did it first try!

Super.
07-12-2017, 11:00 AM
I'm late, but Jordan and KL on the same line together would be insane.
Lmao you made my point about how most of his voters see Jordan and Kawhi and get tunnel vision.



Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

KnicksorBust
07-13-2017, 08:38 AM
:laugh: im dying

:laugh2: I'm just curious if I had any sort of positive impact on Dan moving forward in the ATRD. No way is Elvin Hayes significantly better than him (if at all even). Since they started doing OBPM, Hayes only had 4 seasons where he didn't have a negative OBPM... not #2 scoring material whatsoever. Dan sort of saved me in all seriousness.

Wouldn't surprise me. That is an accomplishment in and of itself! But his combination of defense and scoring always should play well. Either way it will be pure entertainment to see how he is viewed in the next all-time game.

Good thing you didn't go with Kukoc. ;)

KnicksorBust
07-13-2017, 08:38 AM
:laugh: im dying

Scottie Pippen couldn't win a single Finals MVP in 6 tries with MJ, Dan Roundfield did it first try!

:laugh:

Ebbs
07-24-2017, 04:54 PM
Scottie Pippen couldn't win a single Finals MVP in 6 tries with MJ, Dan Roundfield did it first try!

:laugh2:

mngopher35
07-24-2017, 05:13 PM
I feel like I had RR ranked like 8th or something haha.

Despite people being mad at the final outcome of Jordan team winning this was actually a really wide open game, wish I had been around more/active during the voting this time around.

tredigs
07-25-2017, 07:38 PM
I like that this dead thread is still stickied. I'm pretty sure this title is more respected on PSD than the Warriors ships lol.