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View Full Version : Where does Hayward rank in the east?



mrblisterdundee
07-04-2017, 11:47 PM
Gordon Hayward was obviously trying to avoid murderers alley by leaving the Jazz and heading east. He might not have even made an all-star team in the west, while he's already one of the best players in the east.
How do you rank the top-10 in the east?

mightybosstone
07-04-2017, 11:58 PM
I think he's top 5 pretty easily, or at least in the top 5 conversation. Lebron and Giannis are pretty clearly top 2, and then I've got Wall, Hayward and IT right afterward in some order. My top 10 would probably look something like this:
1. Lebron James
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. John Wall
4. Gordon Hayward
5. Isaiah Thomas
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Kyle Lowry
8. DeMar Derozan
9. Bradley Beal
10. Kemba Walker / Hassan Whiteside / Kevin Love

aman_13
07-05-2017, 12:03 AM
I think he's top 5 pretty easily, or at least in the top 5 conversation. Lebron and Giannis are pretty clearly top 2, and then I've got Wall, Hayward and IT right afterward in some order. My top 10 would probably look something like this:
1. Lebron James
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. John Wall
4. Gordon Hayward
5. Isaiah Thomas
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Kyle Lowry
8. DeMar Derozan
9. Bradley Beal
10. Kemba Walker / Hassan Whiteside / Kevin Love

Maybe we should not have an all star game next yr.

mrblisterdundee
07-05-2017, 12:07 AM
1. LeBron
2. Giannis
3. Embiid (if healthy)
4. Wall
5. Thomas
6. Hayward
7. Lowry
8. Irving
9. Kemba
10. DeMar

mightybosstone
07-05-2017, 12:12 AM
1. LeBron
2. Giannis
3. Embiid (if healthy)
4. Wall
5. Thomas
6. Hayward
7. Lowry
8. Irving
9. Kemba
10. DeMar

That's way, way too high for Embiid for like a 30-game sample size. He needs to play at least 60 games of a season before I can take him remotely seriously.

mrblisterdundee
07-05-2017, 12:12 AM
I think he's top 5 pretty easily, or at least in the top 5 conversation. Lebron and Giannis are pretty clearly top 2, and then I've got Wall, Hayward and IT right afterward in some order. My top 10 would probably look something like this:
1. Lebron James
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. John Wall
4. Gordon Hayward
5. Isaiah Thomas
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Kyle Lowry
8. DeMar Derozan
9. Bradley Beal
10. Kemba Walker / Hassan Whiteside / Kevin Love

I was wondering whether to include Embiid in my rankings. When he was healthy, Embiid was the best rim protector in the NBA. The 76ers were a winning team with him on the court. For the sake of the east, I hope he is healthy.


That's way, way too high for Embiid for like a 30-game sample size. He needs to play at least 60 games of a season before I can take him remotely seriously.

But during that sample size, he was the second coming of Hakeem with three-point range. I guess I'm looking at his health from a glass half-full perspective.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-05-2017, 12:17 AM
Pretty damn high. Probably 4-7 in most people's lists.

Lebron, Giannis, Wall are all locks. I'd probably rank Irving and IT above but I know people don't always like those 2.

Then guys like Demar, Lowry are behind him with Love, Kemba, Melo (if he goes to the Cavs) etc finishing off the top 10.

Dade County
07-05-2017, 12:31 AM
1.Lbj
2.Giannis
3.Irving
4.Wall
5.Kemba
6.DeMar
7.Isaiah
8.Hayward
9. ?
Love, Melo, Whiteside, Lowry, Dragic, Beal, KP...etc

tredigs
07-05-2017, 01:11 AM
Maybe 5th:

'Bron
Giannis
Wall
Kyrie
Hayward

LA_Raiders
07-05-2017, 01:45 AM
He is barely a top 10. Man, they will be murdered in the ASG.

aman_13
07-05-2017, 11:56 AM
It's too bad DeMar can't shoot the three because I like him a lot better than Hayward. Hayward just sits well with analytic group. I would rank Hayward higher but I rather have DeMar.

aman_13
07-05-2017, 11:57 AM
Regular season, I'd take Lowry over him too.

mavwar53
07-05-2017, 12:15 PM
These lists are ****ing amazing. The east is straight garbage.

JordansBulls
07-05-2017, 10:49 PM
Is he that good? I never have seen him play that much?

Jamiecballer
07-05-2017, 11:08 PM
Top 15 or so. Most overrated white guy since Keith van horn

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

europagnpilgrim
07-05-2017, 11:46 PM
Bottom half of best 20 players in the East, its basically the guard/small forward version signing of what Boston did last offseason with Horford, where was Horford ranked in East prior to signing with C's? where would Horford had ranked in his last season with Hawks had he played out West? by default being in the East makes Hayward(plus PG/Butler going West helps mightily) ranked higher because Hayward wasn't no where near a top 10 player out West, not even close and I don't care what analytics say because my eye test trumps all

rhino17
07-05-2017, 11:55 PM
I think he's top 5 pretty easily, or at least in the top 5 conversation. Lebron and Giannis are pretty clearly top 2, and then I've got Wall, Hayward and IT right afterward in some order. My top 10 would probably look something like this:
1. Lebron James
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. John Wall
4. Gordon Hayward
5. Isaiah Thomas
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Kyle Lowry
8. DeMar Derozan
9. Bradley Beal
10. Kemba Walker / Hassan Whiteside / Kevin Love
i think this is pretty accurate.

Top 6 are the definitive top 6 imo, even if you wanna switch the order around.

smith&wesson
07-06-2017, 04:42 PM
I see Hayward is already being over rated

Wall, Thomas, Irving > Hayward easily.

Hayward is not a good defensive player at all.. so if were only judging by offense then Id take a top 5 scorer in the league over him too. Derozan!

Hawkeye15
07-06-2017, 04:52 PM
top 5-6 out east

LeBron
Lowry
Giannis
Wall
Love

I would take them all before Hayward. KP might have an argument soon too.

Hayward wouldn't even stand a chance of making the all star team out west this year.

SteBO
07-06-2017, 04:54 PM
I see Hayward is already being over rated

Wall, Thomas, Irving > Hayward easily.

Hayward is not a good defensive player at all.. so if were only judging by offense then Id take a top 5 scorer in the league over him too. Derozan!
It's amazing and shameful......Cavs have three of the top 5 players in the east. I would also take Wall, Greek Freak, and Lowry over Hayward.

BlueandWhite
07-06-2017, 04:57 PM
I think the General consensus is between 4-7th.

Now....if w\you were to put him back in the west....where would he rank?

Hawkeye15
07-06-2017, 05:01 PM
I think the General consensus is between 4-7th.

Now....if w\you were to put him back in the west....where would he rank?

out west he is barely a top 20 player in the conference.

SteBO
07-06-2017, 05:03 PM
top 5-6 out east

LeBron
Lowry
Giannis
Wall
Love

I would take them all before Hayward. KP might have an argument soon too.

Hayward wouldn't even stand a chance of making the all star team out west this year.
This discussion is depressing. Only one half of the league actually matters.....

Hustla23
07-06-2017, 05:07 PM
Wow the eastern conference is horrible.

Minnesota and Memphis should be redistributed to the east.

The Nets should just be disbanded to equalize the two conferences.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2017, 05:08 PM
This discussion is depressing. Only one half of the league actually matters.....

yeah it's just crazy. Like, Hayward flipped to the east, but oh, wait, 2 guys better at his position went out west haha

Hawkeye15
07-06-2017, 05:08 PM
Wow the eastern conference is horrible.

Minnesota and Memphis should be redistributed to the east.

The Nets should just be disbanded to equalize the two conferences.

haha

as a Wolves fan, I was always blown away with how this isn't a division:

Detroit
Indiana
Milwaukee
Chicago
Minnesota


but this is:

Oklahoma City
Portland
Minnesota
Utah
Denver

makes no sense

Plus it would be sweet this year cause MN would run away with that division

hugepatsfan
07-06-2017, 05:15 PM
In the whole NBA

1) Lebron
2) Durant
3) Curry
4) Leonard
5) Harden
6) Westbrook
7) CP3
8) Davis
9) Giannis
10) PG13
11) Butler
12) Green
13) Wall
14) Blake
15) Cousins
16) KAT
17) Gasol
18) Hayward

I'd have him #18 overall in the NBA.

L8kers4life
07-06-2017, 05:53 PM
out west he is barely a top 20 player in the conference.

It's pretty crazy, on ESPN they put together 2 full all star teams in the West that would probably beat the EAST All Star squad.

rhino17
07-06-2017, 06:21 PM
I see Hayward is already being over rated


I think people in the east just don't watch real basketball out west. Hayward is every bit as good as Butler to George for me. Hell, Gordon was the alpha on a really good team in the west last year. Butler and George barely sniffed the playoffs in the east

Hustla23
07-06-2017, 06:29 PM
haha

as a Wolves fan, I was always blown away with how this isn't a division:

Detroit
Indiana
Milwaukee
Chicago
Minnesota


but this is:

Oklahoma City
Portland
Minnesota
Utah
Denver

makes no sense

Plus it would be sweet this year cause MN would run away with that division
Yeah, you guys got shafted lol. If there's supposed to be some kind of geographical basis to these divisions, then why on earth is Minnesota with Portland. The midwest is the midwest.

jphysics
07-06-2017, 07:46 PM
i think this is pretty accurate.

Top 6 are the definitive top 6 imo, even if you wanna switch the order around.

I think the top 3 are accurate and the rest is a crap shoot. There are no good two way players on that list below #2 or #3. Sad.

Necrosis
07-06-2017, 08:28 PM
Demar is better than Hayward, he literally averages that same boards and assists, gets to the line more and averaged 5 more points per game.

3 pt is the only advantage Hayward has, But averaging 27 points per game is very hard to do.

futureman
07-07-2017, 01:30 AM
Would Rank him above IT after all he Just admitted he wasn't better than him 2 days ago.

Hawkeye15
07-07-2017, 11:30 AM
I think people in the east just don't watch real basketball out west. Hayward is every bit as good as Butler to George for me. Hell, Gordon was the alpha on a really good team in the west last year. Butler and George barely sniffed the playoffs in the east

Hayward is not on Butler, or George's level. Butler is an elite defender, and while he isn't the shooter Hayward is, he is a better distributor, and physical scorer. George is a much better overall offensive player than Hayward.

Both are for sure a tier above as a wing player.

eDush
07-07-2017, 11:38 AM
I think people in the east just don't watch real basketball out west. Hayward is every bit as good as Butler to George for me. Hell, Gordon was the alpha on a really good team in the west last year. Butler and George barely sniffed the playoffs in the east

Hayward is not on Butler, or George's level. Butler is an elite defender, and while he isn't the shooter Hayward is, he is a better distributor, and physical scorer. George is a much better overall offensive player than Hayward.

Both are for sure a tier above as a wing player.:nod:

Vee-Rex
07-07-2017, 11:39 AM
I think people in the east just don't watch real basketball out west. Hayward is every bit as good as Butler to George for me. Hell, Gordon was the alpha on a really good team in the west last year. Butler and George barely sniffed the playoffs in the east

Sounds like you don't watch enough East basketball if you think Hayward is equal to George and Butler.

He's not far behind but there's still a difference there.

smith&wesson
07-07-2017, 01:35 PM
I think people in the east just don't watch real basketball out west. Hayward is every bit as good as Butler to George for me. Hell, Gordon was the alpha on a really good team in the west last year. Butler and George barely sniffed the playoffs in the east

Lol Hayward as good as George ? Check PG13 playoff stats and get back to me. 😂

Their teams were atrocious and both gave the celtics and cavs a run for their money.

Wth does Gordon have to do with anything ?

smith&wesson
07-07-2017, 01:37 PM
Demar is better than Hayward, he literally averages that same boards and assists, gets to the line more and averaged 5 more points per game.

3 pt is the only advantage Hayward has, But averaging 27 points per game is very hard to do.

He'll never get true recognition until he leaves toronto and thats the sad truth.

smith&wesson
07-07-2017, 01:42 PM
Hayward is not on Butler, or George's level. Butler is an elite defender, and while he isn't the shooter Hayward is, he is a better distributor, and physical scorer. George is a much better overall offensive player than Hayward.

Both are for sure a tier above as a wing player.

I honestly can not wait to see KAT and Butler.

With coah Thibs, Butler will make such a smooth transition too.. I already have KAT as one of, if not the best C's in the league.. Cant wait to see him surrounded by solid vets in Teague, Gibson and a legit allstar in Bulter.

If Wiggins can take that next step its a bonus to. Less defensive pressure will benifit him for sure.

Gibby23
07-07-2017, 02:03 PM
Hayward is not on Butler, or George's level. Butler is an elite defender, and while he isn't the shooter Hayward is, he is a better distributor, and physical scorer. George is a much better overall offensive player than Hayward.

Both are for sure a tier above as a wing player.

Career wise, sure. Last season Hayward was better on offense and on defense compared to PG.

Gibby23
07-07-2017, 02:06 PM
Lol Hayward as good as George ? Check PG13 playoff stats and get back to me. 😂

Their teams were atrocious and both gave the celtics and cavs a run for their money.

Wth does Gordon have to do with anything ?

George shot like 38% in the playoffs

nastynice
07-08-2017, 01:48 AM
I was wondering whether to include Embiid in my rankings. When he was healthy, Embiid was the best rim protector in the NBA. The 76ers were a winning team with him on the court. For the sake of the east, I hope he is healthy.



But during that sample size, he was the second coming of Hakeem with three-point range. I guess I'm looking at his health from a glass half-full perspective.

Bro, that guys game is so nasty. The way he moves with that size plus that skill, it's ridiculous. But I don't know. All that weight, moving the way he does, I don't know, I hope he can stay healthy but he putting a lot of stress on those knees

What his injury problems been, like knee and ankle ****, right?

basch152
07-08-2017, 07:00 AM
Bro, that guys game is so nasty. The way he moves with that size plus that skill, it's ridiculous. But I don't know. All that weight, moving the way he does, I don't know, I hope he can stay healthy but he putting a lot of stress on those knees

What his injury problems been, like knee and ankle ****, right?

Id like to see what he can do with some experience but even if he stays healthy at this point I have to imagine his athleticism is going to start getting sapped at a young age.

bagwell368
07-08-2017, 07:33 AM
Stevens pace is going to help GH. Lack of wings in the East is also going to help GH, and he'll be matched up vs the weakest wing whenever he's on the floor.

PG is a better player, but what good is he to the C's when he's going to join Lebron in LAL next year?

Butler is sort of a throwback player style wise, not sure Stevens really wanted him. Ainge didn't, he could have blown that bid to bits. Also, he sucked vs the C's in the playoffs. Bon chance.

Vee-Rex
07-08-2017, 10:58 AM
George shot like 38% in the playoffs

I can tell you didn't watch that series at all - you probably shouldn't comment on it when you haven't.

George dominated in the first 3 games. Game 1 he put up 29/5/7 on 47%FG and 75%3pt (6/8)

Game 2 he put up 32/8/7 on 50%FG and 40% 3pt (4/10)

Game 3 he didn't shoot as well from the field but he still dominated in every other aspect of the game. 36/15/9 on 35%FG and 33%3pt. He wasn't great from the field but he imposed his will on the game and got to the line 11/11. He had an impact everywhere on the court and was the reason Indiana was up by like 26 in game 3.

Game 4 was his only terrible game. 15/7/6 on 25%FG (5/21) and 33%3pt

3 dominant games, 1 terrible game. And if you examine context: Cavs doubled/trapped George THE ENTIRE SERIES. They gave open shots to Turner, Stephenson, Teague, and every other Pacer. They hounded George the entire time and he STILL only averaged 3 turnovers per game for the entire series despite the fact he was the primary and only option.

Watch that series and you'll see what an amazing job he did. That's why the Indiana series was the toughest series for the Cavs minus the finals.

Gibby23
07-08-2017, 04:21 PM
I can tell you didn't watch that series at all - you probably shouldn't comment on it when you haven't.

George dominated in the first 3 games. Game 1 he put up 29/5/7 on 47%FG and 75%3pt (6/8)

Game 2 he put up 32/8/7 on 50%FG and 40% 3pt (4/10)

Game 3 he didn't shoot as well from the field but he still dominated in every other aspect of the game. 36/15/9 on 35%FG and 33%3pt. He wasn't great from the field but he imposed his will on the game and got to the line 11/11. He had an impact everywhere on the court and was the reason Indiana was up by like 26 in game 3.

Game 4 was his only terrible game. 15/7/6 on 25%FG (5/21) and 33%3pt

3 dominant games, 1 terrible game. And if you examine context: Cavs doubled/trapped George THE ENTIRE SERIES. They gave open shots to Turner, Stephenson, Teague, and every other Pacer. They hounded George the entire time and he STILL only averaged 3 turnovers per game for the entire series despite the fact he was the primary and only option.

Watch that series and you'll see what an amazing job he did. That's why the Indiana series was the toughest series for the Cavs minus the finals.
I watched, they were close every game. Hayward had a hell of a 1st round series also, but they won. GH was better this year you can go watch all you want. Dumb ***.

Federal Reserve
07-08-2017, 06:47 PM
My list was constructed based on how well I believe a player would play in the playoffs.

1. Lebron
2. Giannis
3. Embiid
4. Wall
5. Irving
6. Love
7. Hayward
8. Porzingis
9. Beal
10. Kemba

WaDe03
07-08-2017, 06:55 PM
I watched, they were close every game. Hayward had a hell of a 1st round series also, but they won. GH was better this year you can go watch all you want. Dumb ***.

You didn't watch.

Gibby23
07-08-2017, 07:17 PM
You didn't watch.

Sure I did. I also watched the Heat strike out on Hayward

WaDe03
07-08-2017, 07:22 PM
It was for the better that the Heat didn't get Hayward.

Federal Reserve
07-08-2017, 08:33 PM
It was for the better that the Heat didn't get Hayward.

Yeah, the Heat were better off signing the quintessential center Olynyk and the offensive juggernaut James Johnson.

SteBO
07-08-2017, 08:45 PM
I watched, they were close every game. Hayward had a hell of a 1st round series also, but they won. GH was better this year you can go watch all you want. Dumb ***.
A lot goes into winning games in the playoffs. No man's an island....regardless of how good/great the player he is. Hayward had the far superior team around him with a dpoy candidate in Gobert alone. PG wasn't so fortunate.

Childish name calling won't change that fact.

SteBO
07-08-2017, 08:49 PM
Yeah, the Heat were better off signing the quintessential center Olynyk and the offensive juggernaut James Johnson.
To be blunt....yup. The contracts are team friendly and moveable just in case, especially during a period where no team matters outside of the Dubs/Cavs/Spurs. Helluva lot better than signing a guy you traded away a couple years prior to 4-years & $71 million.....

WaDe03
07-08-2017, 08:55 PM
Yeah, the Heat were better off signing the quintessential center Olynyk and the offensive juggernaut James Johnson.

Johnson was very good last season, particularly in the 2nd half. As Stebo said, all of those contracts are easily moveable if needed.

Gibby23
07-08-2017, 11:51 PM
A lot goes into winning games in the playoffs. No man's an island....regardless of how good/great the player he is. Hayward had the far superior team around him with a dpoy candidate in Gobert alone. PG wasn't so fortunate.

Childish name calling won't change that fact.

Steve, Steven, Bo.... Hayward had better numbers in the regular season also. Advanced and all that ish.

Tone it down a bit

Gibby23
07-08-2017, 11:54 PM
To be blunt....yup. The contracts are team friendly and moveable just in case, especially during a period where no team matters outside of the Dubs/Cavs/Spurs. Helluva lot better than signing a guy you traded away a couple years prior to 4-years & $71 million.....
Not movable for free agency next season. Going to have to take salary back for at least a year. If waiters doesn't improve and Johnson sucks, going to have to send picks. And Tyler whoever starts to make about 20 million in a year.

Pat only has a few years left, the Heat won't be relevant again for a long long time.

SteBO
07-09-2017, 08:43 AM
Steve, Steven, Bo.... Hayward had better numbers in the regular season also. Advanced and all that ish.

Tone it down a bit
There are two sides of basketball. PG's a better defender. Also, you claimed Hayward was better than PG because he played a great 1st round series and his team won on top of it. A lot goes into winning playoff series'. Regular season doesn't apply to what I said.

You called another dude a dumb***. Childish name calling doesn't diminish his point.

SteBO
07-09-2017, 08:47 AM
Not movable for free agency next season. Going to have to take salary back for at least a year. If waiters doesn't improve and Johnson sucks, going to have to send picks. And Tyler whoever starts to make about 20 million in a year.

Pat only has a few years left, the Heat won't be relevant again for a long long time.
TJ's contract is a poison pill, so I agree that his' will be difficult to move. Miamis developmental staff is among tops in the league, so I have faith in Waiters' coming further along. Could be wrong in the end, but I'm lucky to be a fan of one of the best franchises in the league. Things will work out in the end. We'll be in the playoffs this year for sure.

So for your sake, you'd better hope Miami's irrelevant for a long, long time. Lord knows this past decade's been rough on you in that respect (5 Finals, 3 Titles)

eDush
07-09-2017, 04:39 PM
Steve, Steven, Bo.... Hayward had better numbers in the regular season also. Advanced and all that ish.

Tone it down a bit
There are two sides of basketball. PG's a better defender. Also, you claimed Hayward was better than PG because he played a great 1st round series and his team won on top of it. A lot goes into winning playoff series'. Regular season doesn't apply to what I said.

You called another dude a dumb***. Childish name calling doesn't diminish his point.Hayward is not better than PG on either side of the court. He just better at passing and less selfish with the ball but I don't even regard that as newsworthy. PG would have made a bigger impact on the C imo:nod:

Gibby23
07-09-2017, 09:45 PM
There are two sides of basketball. PG's a better defender. Also, you claimed Hayward was better than PG because he played a great 1st round series and his team won on top of it. A lot goes into winning playoff series'. Regular season doesn't apply to what I said.

You called another dude a dumb***. Childish name calling doesn't diminish his point.

So the guy with a better defensive rating, a better defense box plus minus, and more defense win shares was the worse defender?

Like I said, last season, Hayward was better than PG13. On both sides of the ball as you say. Lol

Don't just come in here making stuff up and backing it up with your opinion. It doesn't work like that.

WaDe03
07-09-2017, 11:22 PM
So the guy with a better defensive rating, a better defense box plus minus, and more defense win shares was the worse defender?

Like I said, last season, Hayward was better than PG13. On both sides of the ball as you say. Lol

Don't just come in here making stuff up and backing it up with your opinion. It doesn't work like that.

I think that pretty clearly shows the numbers are flawed every now and then. Advanced stats aren't the end of every discussion. PG is for sure the better defender, Hayward was lucky enough to play next to a top 3 or so defensive player in the league.

Gibby23
07-09-2017, 11:34 PM
I think that pretty clearly shows the numbers are flawed every now and then. Advanced stats aren't the end of every discussion. PG is for sure the better defender, Hayward was lucky enough to play next to a top 3 or so defensive player in the league.

I have seen your posts over the years. I'll stick to judging off the numbers. Thanks though.

Scoots
07-09-2017, 11:55 PM
I have seen your posts over the years. I'll stick to judging off the numbers. Thanks though.

The stats are useful, but they are not everything.

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 12:06 AM
The stats are useful, but they are not everything.

They are a better indicator than anything else. So my point still stands. GH was better than PG13 last season. Offensively and defensively

mnatiq
07-10-2017, 01:27 AM
He's gonna be a bust. Lol. One hit wonder.

tredigs
07-10-2017, 01:37 AM
He's gonna be a bust. Lol. One hit wonder.

Watch out Fortune 500's, mnatig coming for ya!

aman_13
07-10-2017, 01:44 AM
So the guy with a better defensive rating, a better defense box plus minus, and more defense win shares was the worse defender?

Like I said, last season, Hayward was better than PG13. On both sides of the ball as you say. Lol

Don't just come in here making stuff up and backing it up with your opinion. It doesn't work like that.

I haven't seen the numbers but I can tell you defensive metrics are flawed, even the advanced metrics. Hayward benefits playing on a great defensive team and a with defensive player of the yr candidate in Gobert.

As much as they try to isolate a defender's impact, it's very difficult to get a true understanding. Especially when they use box score metrics.

They are much further along in evaluating offense right now.

WaDe03
07-10-2017, 10:18 AM
I have seen your posts over the years. I'll stick to judging off the numbers. Thanks though.

I haven't seen enough knowledge from yours over the years to pay attention. You're probably like these current day analyst who will argue Ariza over Melo on twitter because of RPM and win shares. The numbers definitely aren't everything and in this case, wrong.

WaDe03
07-10-2017, 10:33 AM
882993722228715521

883140866671607808

883094356567130113

882998180656410626

When you never played the game and lack understanding of the game so you state advanced stats as facts and the end of discussion. They have a place but they're not the whole thing or end of discussion. This dude is on here arguing Ariza Pau and Kanter will have better seasons than Melo because of advanced stats. Morey is an advanced stats geek and he would without a doubt take Melo over Ariza. As he understands the numbers he also understands the game.

This dude is also using advanced stats to claim Melo isn't top 50 anymore, that's just a complete joke.

Vinylman
07-10-2017, 10:37 AM
I can tell you didn't watch that series at all - you probably shouldn't comment on it when you haven't.

George dominated in the first 3 games. Game 1 he put up 29/5/7 on 47%FG and 75%3pt (6/8)

Game 2 he put up 32/8/7 on 50%FG and 40% 3pt (4/10)

Game 3 he didn't shoot as well from the field but he still dominated in every other aspect of the game. 36/15/9 on 35%FG and 33%3pt. He wasn't great from the field but he imposed his will on the game and got to the line 11/11. He had an impact everywhere on the court and was the reason Indiana was up by like 26 in game 3.

Game 4 was his only terrible game. 15/7/6 on 25%FG (5/21) and 33%3pt

3 dominant games, 1 terrible game. And if you examine context: Cavs doubled/trapped George THE ENTIRE SERIES. They gave open shots to Turner, Stephenson, Teague, and every other Pacer. They hounded George the entire time and he STILL only averaged 3 turnovers per game for the entire series despite the fact he was the primary and only option.

Watch that series and you'll see what an amazing job he did. That's why the Indiana series was the toughest series for the Cavs minus the finals.

yep... people are pretty dumb because they just look at stats and never context

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 11:12 AM
I haven't seen enough knowledge from yours over the years to pay attention. You're probably like these current day analyst who will argue Ariza over Melo on twitter because of RPM and win shares. The numbers definitely aren't everything and in this case, wrong.

GH and PG had about the same bombers in traditional stats. Nothing like Ariza and Melo comparison. You are one ofthe most uninformed posters here, Stat wise and salary cap wise. Making up fantasy trades and teams all the time.

hugepatsfan
07-10-2017, 11:23 AM
PG is easily and clearly better than GH, IMO. GH is a great player and I'm very excited to have him but he's just not as good.

Vee-Rex
07-10-2017, 11:40 AM
I watched, they were close every game. Hayward had a hell of a 1st round series also, but they won. GH was better this year you can go watch all you want. Dumb ***.

Lol you didn't watch anything. If the Jazz had played the Cavs they would've lost too.

Having a better year doesn't mean jack ****. LeBron is the best player yet he didn't have the best year. 12-year old logic right there.

WaDe03
07-10-2017, 11:41 AM
GH and PG had about the same bombers in traditional stats. Nothing like Ariza and Melo comparison. You are one ofthe most uninformed posters here, Stat wise and salary cap wise. Making up fantasy trades and teams all the time.

Feel free to show me what you're talking about. You may know advanced stats but I'm sure I know the game far more. You probably agree with the guy I posted above claiming Ariza is better than Melo because advanced stats said so.

Vee-Rex
07-10-2017, 11:59 AM
So the guy with a better defensive rating, a better defense box plus minus, and more defense win shares was the worse defender?

Like I said, last season, Hayward was better than PG13. On both sides of the ball as you say. Lol

Don't just come in here making stuff up and backing it up with your opinion. It doesn't work like that.

FWIW, defensive stats are not regarded with as much confidence as the typical traditional and advanced stats - primarily because it can be really difficult to measure how well a guy is defending. You use defensive box +/-
stats even though they're clearly influenced by having a DPOY candidate such as Rudy Gobert on the team. Any minutes Hayward play with Gobert will skew those numbers, whereas Paul George doesn't have a player of that caliber on his team to inflate his own numbers.

DRPM is "supposedly" a better measurement and it puts their defense at an equivalent in the regular season. I don't know if you realize it, but Paul George clearly played with little to no morale during the regular season for stretches at a time. He's clearly a better player than what his regular season numbers would indicate, because he shows it in the playoffs every single time.

If you examine his SportVu defensive tracking in the 2016-17 playoffs, he blows Gordon Hayward away in man-to-man defense.

Hayward had a 1.6% overall differential - meaning, players score better when guarded by Hayward. If they normally shoot 45%, they shoot 46.6% on Hayward.

Whereas George had a -6.5% overall differential - meaning, players scored significantly worse when guarded by George. If they normally shoot 45%, they shoot 38.5% on George.

I can break it down to perimeter defense and defense in the paint as well, where George scorched Hayward.

George, when giving his best effort, is clearly the better man-to-man defender and I'd bet a **** ton of money that Hayward's 'team defense' stats are inflated by Gobert's (and Utah's) strong defense.

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 12:00 PM
Lol you didn't watch anything. If the Jazz had played the Cavs they would've lost too.

Having a better year doesn't mean jack ****. LeBron is the best player yet he didn't have the best year. 12-year old logic right there.

No, it is facts. PG wasn't an ALL NBA player. Him and GH were really close this past year with GH having better numbers in a tougher conference. You can believe what you want because you don't want to see the facts.

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 12:01 PM
Feel free to show me what you're talking about. You may know advanced stats but I'm sure I know the game far more. You probably agree with the guy I posted above claiming Ariza is better than Melo because advanced stats said so.

No, you feel free to show me since you just jeep giving your opinion, and that is worthless

Vee-Rex
07-10-2017, 12:02 PM
Moral of the story kids: Use context and logic instead of blindly throwing out stats you probably don't even fully understand yourself.

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 12:06 PM
FWIW, defensive stats are not regarded with as much confidence as the typical traditional and advanced stats - primarily because it can be really difficult to measure how well a guy is defending. You use defensive box +/-
stats even though they're clearly influenced by having a DPOY candidate such as Rudy Gobert on the team. Any minutes Hayward play with Gobert will skew those numbers, whereas Paul George doesn't have a player of that caliber on his team to inflate his own numbers.

DRPM is "supposedly" a better measurement and it puts their defense at an equivalent in the regular season. I don't know if you realize it, but Paul George clearly played with little to no morale during the regular season for stretches at a time. He's clearly a better player than what his regular season numbers would indicate, because he shows it in the playoffs every single time.

If you examine his SportVu defensive tracking in the 2016-17 playoffs, he blows Gordon Hayward away in man-to-man defense.

Hayward had a 1.6% overall differential - meaning, players score better when guarded by Hayward. If they normally shoot 45%, they shoot 46.6% on Hayward.

Whereas George had a -6.5% overall differential - meaning, players scored significantly worse when guarded by George. If they normally shoot 45%, they shoot 38.5% on George.

I can break it down to perimeter defense and defense in the paint as well, where George scorched Hayward.

George, when giving his best effort, is clearly the better man-to-man defender and I'd bet a **** ton of money that Hayward's 'team defense' stats are inflated by Gobert's (and Utah's) strong defense.
You can't pick and choose playoffs and regular season. PG was a better player through 82 games last year.

Lol, telling me about stats in the playoffs so you can make a point. Haywards stats would look better if he played his season in the east and they probably will now. Hayward played in a very slow paced offense, now he will be in a offense that has more movement and plays faster.

Hayward was also really good in the 1st round, playing the Warriors skewed his playoff numbers, just like the defensive numbers looked really bad for the Cavs players that Warriors series.

WaDe03
07-10-2017, 12:06 PM
Moral of the story kids: Use context and logic instead of blindly throwing out stats you probably don't even fully understand yourself.

This. Gibby is an advanced stats mean everything type of guy I suppose, it's a shame there are fans like this and I'm glad NBA players are starting to call them out.

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 12:07 PM
Moral of the story kids: Use context and logic instead of blindly throwing out stats you probably don't even fully understand yourself.

Like you picking and choosing. Using playoff sample size of 4 games where the full season sample leads to GH. Lol. Sure buddy.

Vee-Rex
07-10-2017, 12:10 PM
No, it is facts. PG wasn't an ALL NBA player. Him and GH were really close this past year with GH having better numbers in a tougher conference. You can believe what you want because you don't want to see the facts.

I'm not denying that they had similar numbers, and I won't argue if you say GH had the better year. My only disagreement is your statement that he's the better player.

I'm a huge GH fan myself and think he's a wonderful player. I'm cool with him being ranked as high as 15 overall in the NBA. He's just not at the same level as Paul George, but he's not far behind IMO. Having one year where he performed better (and not by a significant margin by any means) while context showed stretches of turmoil/unhappiness on George's end, not to mention Gordon was surrounded by better players - doesn't mean he's a better player than George.

Vee-Rex
07-10-2017, 12:24 PM
You can't pick and choose playoffs and regular season. PG was a better player through 82 games last year.

Lol, telling me about stats in the playoffs so you can make a point. Haywards stats would look better if he played his season in the east and they probably will now. Hayward played in a very slow paced offense, now he will be in a offense that has more movement and plays faster.

Hayward was also really good in the 1st round, playing the Warriors skewed his playoff numbers, just like the defensive numbers looked really bad for the Cavs players that Warriors series.

I'm picking the format that I know PG is performing his best in. You're picking just the regular season of 2016-17 and ignoring everything else.

Guess what? PG murders Gordon Hayward in man-to-man defense in 2015-16, 2014-15, and 2013-14 as well IN THE REGULAR SEASON.

2015-16 regular season

PG: -3.9 overall differential
GH: +1.4 overall differential

2014-15 regular season

PG (in only 6 games): -9.2 overall differential
GH: +0.4 overall differential

2013-14 regular season

PG: -4.7 overall differential
GH: -1.2 overall differential

PG has ate him up defensively in every year, every regular season except 2016-17: the season he played with little passion for stretches at a time and where he obviously had issues with the Pacers team/organization and the direction they were going.

Paul George has killed Gordon Hayward in DRPM in all previous years, and in 2016-17 his DRPM was 0.08 compared to Hayward's at 0.09.

Paul George is a better defender and player than Gordon Hayward, dude.

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 12:30 PM
I'm picking the format that I know PG is performing his best in. You're picking just the regular season of 2016-17 and ignoring everything else.

Guess what? PG murders Gordon Hayward in man-to-man defense in 2015-16, 2014-15, and 2013-14 as well IN THE REGULAR SEASON.

2015-16 regular season

PG: -3.9 overall differential
GH: +1.4 overall differential

2014-15 regular season

PG (in only 6 games): -9.2 overall differential
GH: +0.4 overall differential

2013-14 regular season

PG: -4.7 overall differential
GH: -1.2 overall differential

PG has ate him up defensively in every year, every regular season except 2016-17: the season he played with little passion for stretches at a time and where he obviously had issues with the Pacers team/organization and the direction they were going.

Paul George has killed Gordon Hayward in DRPM in all previous years, and in 2016-17 his DRPM was 0.08 compared to Hayward's at 0.09.

Paul George is a better defender and player than Gordon Hayward, dude.

And? I specifically said this past season

Vee-Rex
07-10-2017, 12:34 PM
And? I specifically said this past season

Good to see you wave the white flag.

Gibby23
07-10-2017, 12:51 PM
Good to see you wave the white flag.

I still think PG is the better player and will be going forward, but it is a fact that Hayward is comparable and was the better player last season. You have nothing to prove your point so you pull up career stats. Lol. Keep reaching.

Vee-Rex
07-10-2017, 12:59 PM
I still think PG is the better player and will be going forward, but it is a fact that Hayward is comparable and was the better player last season.

Well, I'm not sure why there was even an argument in the first place if you agree that PG is the better player. Why even bring up Hayward's marginally superior regular season to counter people saying PG is the better player? Aside from the confusion there, I do fully agree with you that Hayward is comparable to George (he's not far behind at all) and played better last year.

ewing
07-10-2017, 01:17 PM
Well, I'm not sure why there was even an argument in the first place if you agree that PG is the better player. Why even bring up Hayward's marginally superior regular season to counter people saying PG is the better player? Aside from the confusion there, I do fully agree with you that Hayward is comparable to George (he's not far behind at all) and played better last year.


I like Hayward a lot. I do think PG would have been better for Boston. While they are both very good PG is longer/more athletic which Boston needs on the front line and i think he is better at creating his own shot. That said Haywood is a win

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-10-2017, 06:22 PM
I think we can come to the simple conclusion that Hayward had the better season last year but George is the better overall player, right?

mrblisterdundee
07-13-2017, 01:26 AM
I think we can come to the simple conclusion that Hayward had the better season last year but George is the better overall player, right?

All the advanced stats point to Hayward being slightly better for a team. I'd say they're nearly equal, with George a better defender and Hayward a better ball-handler.

ewing
07-13-2017, 08:45 AM
All the advanced stats point to Hayward being slightly better for a team. I'd say they're nearly equal, with George a better defender and Hayward a better ball-handler.

just how advanced are those stats though?

bagwell368
07-13-2017, 03:04 PM
All very interesting.

Two points to make/remake:

1. GH's pro career had a pretty modest start. He's advanced a long way to get himself to rank at about ~35 in the NBA.

2. PG has had a better career. He's easily in the top 15 IMO.

But now PG is going west (Celts would have been stupid to deal for him w/o an extension), which could tamp down the stats a bit.

GH is going to play in the weaker East for a Coach with more of an idea of how tom max GH out than any other. The offensive pace will certainly help, and Stevens emphasis on D may help push GH a bit on that side. GH will play against the weakest wing on the floor - whomever it is, and that will help him too.

So, at the end of the year, if you look up both, I expect it to be close.

WaDe03
07-13-2017, 04:48 PM
What are Boston fans going to yell at Hayward when he has a bad game since he's white?

ewing
07-15-2017, 07:41 AM
What are Boston fans going to yell at Hayward when he has a bad game since he's white?

Do you think he is better then Wade?

WaDe03
07-16-2017, 03:18 PM
Do you think he is better then Wade?

All time? Easily.

Scoots
07-16-2017, 03:37 PM
Do you think he is better then Wade?

Better at being a white man?

PAOboston
07-16-2017, 04:28 PM
What are Boston fans going to yell at Hayward when he has a bad game since he's white?
Come on man. Zero need to bring race into this. Totally unnecessary comment and quite pathetic.

The fans will chew out anyone who stinks the same regardless if they're black, white, Asian, blue or purple.


Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

Ishkabibble
07-18-2017, 10:10 PM
Well he sure hasn't benefited by playing in a city that's way out West...but not on the coast. Great basketball town but Salt Lake City's certainly off the beaten path and people don't have a clear perception of what it's like there. Bottom line is I think it's tough to get appropriate recognition playing for the Jazz. He's now headed to the East Coast to one of the NBA's two most storied franchises and at age 27, in the prime of his career. If he plays well and the team continues to improve he'll get plenty of notoriety with ESPN right down the road. And I think he'll be fine; a smooth, versatile wing whose style scouts say could mesh with any team. Kinda plays effortlessly; he reminds me a lot of Chris Mullen; high praise.

FlashBolt
07-18-2017, 11:02 PM
Hayward is not even comparable to George. Stop the madness. Replace Hayward with Paul George on that Jazz team last year and you'll be looking at an incredibly dangerous team. Hayward is not even a top 20 player.

Butler
LeBron
CP3
Harden
RWB
Kawhi
Cousins
KD
AD
Durant
Lillard
Wall
IT
PG
Towns
Giannis
Gasol
Curry
Draymond
Hayward? Melo? Idk, I would consider other players as well.

I'm not sure where this GH love is coming from but he's a 3rd option player on a championship team. Is he even better than Kevin Love? Let's be honest here. He had a good season but he's unproven as heck. Paul George is just the better player.

Gibby23
07-18-2017, 11:11 PM
Hayward is not even comparable to George. Stop the madness. Replace Hayward with Paul George on that Jazz team last year and you'll be looking at an incredibly dangerous team. Hayward is not even a top 20 player.

Butler
LeBron
CP3
Harden
RWB
Kawhi
Cousins
KD
AD
Durant
Lillard
Wall
IT
PG
Towns
Giannis
Gasol
Curry
Draymond
Hayward? Melo? Idk, I would consider other players as well.

I'm not sure where this GH love is coming from but he's a 3rd option player on a championship team. Is he even better than Kevin Love? Let's be honest here. He had a good season but he's unproven as heck. Paul George is just the better player.

The Jazz still would have been swept by the Warriors. By dangerous, do you mean they still would have been the same?

FlashBolt
07-18-2017, 11:22 PM
The Jazz still would have been swept by the Warriors. By dangerous, do you mean they still would have been the same?

Jazz weren't dangerous at all because Gordon Hayward is not an elite player, yet. Paul George on the other hand, is. PG just poses more of a threat in terms of the attention he can draw and his athleticism. The guy is a vastly superior defender by all accounts and there is no defensive stat you can throw there that changes my mind. Would they have been swept if Utah had a healthy George Hill, PG, and Gobert? I'm not sure. But I know for a fact that opposing SF's and teams fear PG more than they fear Gordon.. I know if I'm playing ball, I would rather play vs Gordon. Put it this way; do you think LeBron cares about facing vs Hayward or PG? Be honest, LeBron doesn't think twice about Hayward.

hugepatsfan
07-18-2017, 11:43 PM
PG is without a doubt better than GH but not so much so that it'd make any material difference for Utah vs GS or BOS vs. CLE, IMO. I'm like 100% sure utah still gets swept and very confident BOS loses in 5/6 either way to CLE. PG might push me a little more to the side of 6 games over 5 but in the grand scheme of things what does that really matter.

FlashBolt
07-18-2017, 11:44 PM
PG is without a doubt better than GH but not so much so that it'd make any material difference for Utah vs GS or BOS vs. CLE, IMO. I'm like 100% sure utah still gets swept and very confident BOS loses in 5/6 either way to CLE. PG might push me a little more to the side of 6 games over 5 but in the grand scheme of things what does that really matter.

Just about any other player on the Jazz not Kawhi, LeBron would get swept, too. Doesn't prove much.

hugepatsfan
07-19-2017, 12:02 AM
Hayward is not even comparable to George. Stop the madness. Replace Hayward with Paul George on that Jazz team last year and you'll be looking at an incredibly dangerous team. Hayward is not even a top 20 player.

Butler
LeBron
CP3
Harden
RWB
Kawhi
Cousins
KD
AD
Durant
Lillard
Wall
IT
PG
Towns
Giannis
Gasol
Curry
Draymond
Hayward? Melo? Idk, I would consider other players as well.

I'm not sure where this GH love is coming from but he's a 3rd option player on a championship team. Is he even better than Kevin Love? Let's be honest here. He had a good season but he's unproven as heck. Paul George is just the better player.

Hayward is better than IT, Lillard, Cousins, Gasol and Towns IMO. IT and Lillard obviously better on offense but their defense is outrid while Hayward is "good" on that end. Gap between him and those guys on D is much greater than on offense. Same with Towns, but he's so young that obviously a better building block going forward. Cousins I know you love but I think he's a loser who just gets hollow numbers. Gasol I like, I just like Hayward a little more.

Very debatable though. Certainly no issue with you having those guys ahead of him. Melo is a very bad suggestion though. Hayward is easily superior - no contest. I think he's in the 20 range, give or take a few spots. You're really arguing semantics saying a guy is 18 vs 22, IMO. Exercise in futility because let's be real, who can actually distinguish to that degree? It's all roster composition and how pieces fit for who you'd rather have when you get down that far anyway.

I agree that Hayward is probably the third best player on a title team unless the best player is a Lebron/Curry/Durant type player and we go back to a league before KD's ***** move of joining GS. In that case I think he could be #2. That's not really a knock though in this league of stars teaming up.

LA_Raiders
07-19-2017, 12:12 AM
He is alright but pg is by far better. They still can't beat the Cavs.

FlashBolt
07-19-2017, 12:17 AM
Hayward is better than IT, Lillard, Cousins, Gasol and Towns IMO. IT and Lillard obviously better on offense but their defense is outrid while Hayward is "good" on that end. Gap between him and those guys on D is much greater than on offense. Same with Towns, but he's so young that obviously a better building block going forward. Cousins I know you love but I think he's a loser who just gets hollow numbers. Gasol I like, I just like Hayward a little more.

Very debatable though. Certainly no issue with you having those guys ahead of him. Melo is a very bad suggestion though. Hayward is easily superior - no contest. I think he's in the 20 range, give or take a few spots. You're really arguing semantics saying a guy is 18 vs 22, IMO. Exercise in futility because let's be real, who can actually distinguish to that degree? It's all roster composition and how pieces fit for who you'd rather have when you get down that far anyway.

I agree that Hayward is probably the third best player on a title team unless the best player is a Lebron/Curry/Durant type player and we go back to a league before KD's ***** move of joining GS. In that case I think he could be #2. That's not really a knock though in this league of stars teaming up.

There's no way he's better than Towns. I'm not sure what you meant by him being so young but LeBron at that same age was better than Hayward so being young doesn't mean much if there's an overwhelming difference in basketball ability. Hayward is a fine player but let's be honest here, he's limited in skillset due to a lack in athleticism. He's just a good player and I'm afraid you'll see the same in Boston.

hugepatsfan
07-19-2017, 12:28 AM
There's no way he's better than Towns. I'm not sure what you meant by him being so young but LeBron at that same age was better than Hayward so being young doesn't mean much if there's an overwhelming difference in basketball ability. Hayward is a fine player but let's be honest here, he's limited in skillset due to a lack in athleticism. He's just a good player and I'm afraid you'll see the same in Boston.

Sorry I think you misunderstood me on Towns. I think Hayward is better right now because Towns is such trash on D while Hayward is good. However, because he is so young and developing I would one million percent rather have him on my team because I'm sure he'll either just keep growing on offense to where his D doesn't even matter or improve his defense over time. So while o prefer Hayward now I think Towns is obviously the guy I'd rather have. That's where his youth plays in.

Hayward seems plenty athletic from what I've seen. He's not the best athlete in the league so it is one of the contributing factors to him not being amongst the truly elite of the elite but that's factored into me saying he's in the 20ish area as opposed to higher.

Ishkabibble
07-19-2017, 12:41 AM
Conjecture and speculation. We get it; Heyward's not even remotely lose to George, we get it. They're both going to their 2nd teams and we'll see how it goes. But if you think he's not even elite you're a flat-out idiot. Last time I checked 22 points a game on a 50 win team means something. And one thing's for sure, Hayward became an all-star in the West and that's a helluva lot more difficult than doing it in the East. Personally I'd take George but spare us the definitive conclusions when neither guy has played a game for his new team yet.

hugepatsfan
07-19-2017, 12:54 AM
Conjecture and speculation. We get it; Heyward's not even remotely lose to George, we get it. They're both going to their 2nd teams and we'll see how it goes. But if you think he's not even elite you're a flat-out idiot. Last time I checked 22 points a game on a 50 win team means something. And one thing's for sure, Hayward became an all-star in the West and that's a helluva lot more difficult than doing it in the East. Personally I'd take George but spare us the definitive conclusions when neither guy has played a game for his new team yet.

I don't think it's really debatable that PG I'd better. I'm not saying the gal between the most is as wide as the Grand Canyon but I don't think the order is in question at all.

hugepatsfan
07-19-2017, 01:04 AM
Conjecture and speculation. We get it; Heyward's not even remotely lose to George, we get it. They're both going to their 2nd teams and we'll see how it goes. But if you think he's not even elite you're a flat-out idiot. Last time I checked 22 points a game on a 50 win team means something. And one thing's for sure, Hayward became an all-star in the West and that's a helluva lot more difficult than doing it in the East. Personally I'd take George but spare us the definitive conclusions when neither guy has played a game for his new team yet.

I don't think it's really debatable that PG I'd better. I'm not saying the gal between the most is as wide as the Grand Canyon but I don't think the order is in question at all.

FlashBolt
07-19-2017, 02:54 AM
Sorry I think you misunderstood me on Towns. I think Hayward is better right now because Towns is such trash on D while Hayward is good. However, because he is so young and developing I would one million percent rather have him on my team because I'm sure he'll either just keep growing on offense to where his D doesn't even matter or improve his defense over time. So while o prefer Hayward now I think Towns is obviously the guy I'd rather have. That's where his youth plays in.

Hayward seems plenty athletic from what I've seen. He's not the best athlete in the league so it is one of the contributing factors to him not being amongst the truly elite of the elite but that's factored into me saying he's in the 20ish area as opposed to higher.

I keep hearing about Haywards defense when the fact is, he's playing next to probably the best rim protector and a top five defender in the league and also for a coach who preaches defense. I'm sorry but we've seen how a player's defensive capabilities can change when they are put in better situations. People talk about how Hayward stays in front of his guy when the more obvious answer is how Rudy Gobert prevents players from driving to the paint. Towns is a much more efficient offensive player who's defense has been unfulfilled for this particular team because of a lack in defense by other guys such as Wiggins/Lavine.

He's an athlete, of course he's more athletic than we interpret it. But for NBA standards and being an All-Star, he ranks low in that department. I agree on the 20'ish spot. I just think he's a limited skillset player who can give you 20/5/5 whereas Paul George can be a gamechanger and his gameplay just goes much farther in both carrying a team and or going up against guys who require that "it" factor Gordon just doesn't have.

hugepatsfan
07-19-2017, 11:12 AM
I keep hearing about Haywards defense when the fact is, he's playing next to probably the best rim protector and a top five defender in the league and also for a coach who preaches defense. I'm sorry but we've seen how a player's defensive capabilities can change when they are put in better situations. People talk about how Hayward stays in front of his guy when the more obvious answer is how Rudy Gobert prevents players from driving to the paint. Towns is a much more efficient offensive player who's defense has been unfulfilled for this particular team because of a lack in defense by other guys such as Wiggins/Lavine.

He's an athlete, of course he's more athletic than we interpret it. But for NBA standards and being an All-Star, he ranks low in that department. I agree on the 20'ish spot. I just think he's a limited skillset player who can give you 20/5/5 whereas Paul George can be a gamechanger and his gameplay just goes much farther in both carrying a team and or going up against guys who require that "it" factor Gordon just doesn't have.

Gobert being an animal certainly helps. And MIN has weaknesses on that end around Towns. IDK though, Towns seems flat out bad to me on defense right now. Maybe that's exaggerated by who he's around but there's some personal accountability there IMO. And Hayward might look better than he is because of Gobert but I still see a "good", "solid", "OK", "alright", whatever you want to call it individual defender. Towns is a stud and I think will be a transcendent player so I'm certainly not going to argue ranking him ahead. Like I said, I don't below there's really a right answer to who's #18 vs. #22 just as an example. Splitting hairs at that point.

Yeah I think a lack of "special" athleticism is definitely one of the downward driving forces. PG is for sure better - I don't think it's even arguable. I don't think the gap is deniable but I don't think it's as wide as you do. PG is probably, IDK, 10th-12th in the NBA or something like that while Hayward is 20ish like I said. But I think PG is much close to the 20ish range than he is the top 5ish. That's just kind of where I think the tiers are in relation to each other.

ewing
07-19-2017, 04:12 PM
Better at being a white man?

I'm the best at that

bucketss
07-19-2017, 04:26 PM
this list made me realize warriors could probably beat the east all star team.

Oakmont_4
07-19-2017, 06:08 PM
this list made me realize warriors could probably beat the east all star team.

Yeah, lets not get carried away.

Wall
Giannis
LeBron
Porzingis
Embiid

Would run train on the Warriors

WaDe03
07-19-2017, 07:20 PM
Yeah, lets not get carried away.

Wall
Giannis
LeBron
Porzingis
Embiid

Would run train on the Warriors

This lol.

nastynice
07-21-2017, 03:39 AM
I don't think it's really debatable that PG I'd better. I'm not saying the gal between the most is as wide as the Grand Canyon but I don't think the order is in question at all.

This. PG is just clearly in a higher tier. GH has made it a respectable gap, but there is still no question a gap

MarvinFinley
07-24-2017, 01:05 PM
Wow the eastern conference is horrible.

Minnesota and Memphis should be redistributed to the east.

The Nets should just be disbanded to equalize the two conferences.

We have all been saying this and writing about the NBA needing to do this but they never do. There must be some financial reason why they don't want to. Maybe that they have to have The Eastern Finalist be near the big cities like NY, NJ, Boston, Detroit, Washington etc. Nets and new Orleans should be disbanded. Memphis should've been in the East the last 15 years.