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View Full Version : Is Collecting "Stars" the Way to Take Down GS?



hugepatsfan
06-30-2017, 10:27 AM
It feels like every team is in an "arms race" to get all-stars. Teams are trying to gut their roster for stars and then fill in with role players. At the end of the day though, the stars they're getting aren't as good as Golden State's and the Warriors are still the top destination for ring chasing vet min guys. So teams are going to try and take down GS's model of stars + role players with the same model except worse stars and (probably) worse role players. I don't see it working.

I'm not advocating teams give up on stars. But is getting an "all-star" really worth giving up 2-3 very good but not great players if that all-star isn't even a consensus top 20 overall player in the NBA who will be marginalized as a 3rd wheel (cough... Kevin Love... cough)? Does star chasing reach a point eventually where you're just chasing names rather than actual impact.

WaDe03
06-30-2017, 10:48 AM
Yes it's the only way. Have to get stars and then the vets will follow for cheap. Star power wins it in the end.

WaDe03
06-30-2017, 10:58 AM
For example, the Celtics have a ton of solid role players but, they never stood a chance against the Cavs because they didn't have the star power to go against LeBron Kyrie and Love. If they add PG and Hayward they more than likely cancel out LeBron and now you need IT and Horford to cancel out Irving and Love and hope your role players how up and perform. This is where Browns development could be huge and even Tatum if they don't have to trade him for PG.

hugepatsfan
06-30-2017, 11:04 AM
Yes it's the only way. Have to get stars and then the vets will follow for cheap. Star power wins it in the end.

Their stars are better.

I don't mean to imply that you don't need stars to have a shot. But there's different caliber of stars.

Kevin Love is an all star but does he really compare to a CP3 or Durant? Horford was an all-star entering FA and IT has been one the past 2 years but they don't compare to Lebron as we saw this year.

At some point, when you get into the lower tier of stars I'm not sure it's worth gutting your roster to pursue them the way teams do. I don't think salary dumping multiple good players for a Millsap/Lowry type would make most of these teams better in most cases is what I'm saying. Sure they're "stars" but they're lower tier where I think it's more name value than on court impact to swap out 2 or 3 good players for them.

valade16
06-30-2017, 11:09 AM
The problem with not gutting your team for a star player is you have to face GS with a bunch of non-star players. No team, no matter how cohesive, is going to beat GS if they are filled with a bunch of non all-star caliber players.

So yes you need stars to beat GS because stars are a reflection of talent, and you can only hope to beat GS with a near enough amount of talent.

warfelg
06-30-2017, 11:20 AM
Have 3 stars with one of them being a big that can move to counter their "Lineup of death"; then past that have amazing depth.

Like if Boston gets Gordon+PG without giving up too many role guys (Bradley, Crowder, Smart, Brown) they could give the Warriors some fits; if they get past Cleveland.

WaDe03
06-30-2017, 11:31 AM
Their stars are better.

I don't mean to imply that you don't need stars to have a shot. But there's different caliber of stars.

Kevin Love is an all star but does he really compare to a CP3 or Durant? Horford was an all-star entering FA and IT has been one the past 2 years but they don't compare to Lebron as we saw this year.

At some point, when you get into the lower tier of stars I'm not sure it's worth gutting your roster to pursue them the way teams do. I don't think salary dumping multiple good players for a Millsap/Lowry type would make most of these teams better in most cases is what I'm saying. Sure they're "stars" but they're lower tier where I think it's more name value than on court impact to swap out 2 or 3 good players for them.

Yea they definitely have higher tier stars so you're also going to have to hope your role players outplay theirs.

There are possibly a few teams that can go against them though:

CP3-Harden-George/Melo
LeBron-Irving-George/LeBron-Irving-Love basically any mixture with LeBron
IT-Hayward-George-Horford
Kawhi-Hill-Aldridge
Dragic-Hayward-Griffin/Millsap-Whiteside

I even think as a dark horse:

Jimmy-Towns-Wiggins-Lowry/Millsap depending on how big of a jump these guys make.

If you're not that tier of star you need to have stars that all fit perfect. I think we're going to see a lot of teams go all in as there's a good chance the Warriors bench takes a huge blow this summer.

WaDe03
06-30-2017, 11:33 AM
Whiteside-Davis-maybe Towns-Cousins

I think these are perfect bigs to go against the Warriors. That's their biggest weakness imo.

smith&wesson
06-30-2017, 11:39 AM
It feels like every team is in an "arms race" to get all-stars. Teams are trying to gut their roster for stars and then fill in with role players. At the end of the day though, the stars they're getting aren't as good as Golden State's and the Warriors are still the top destination for ring chasing vet min guys. So teams are going to try and take down GS's model of stars + role players with the same model except worse stars and (probably) worse role players. I don't see it working.

I'm not advocating teams give up on stars. But is getting an "all-star" really worth giving up 2-3 very good but not great players if that all-star isn't even a consensus top 20 overall player in the NBA who will be marginalized as a 3rd wheel (cough... Kevin Love... cough)? Does star chasing reach a point eventually where you're just chasing names rather than actual impact.

1. It's been that way since the Boston big 3. Lebron couldnt get passed them so he went to Miami

2. Yes every team should be trying to get as much talent as possible. It should be that way. No more cheap owners who make money off of 1 star player with no real chance to win.

I love the fact that gsw are putting pressure on other owners to put talent together.. its how it should be imo

hugepatsfan
06-30-2017, 11:42 AM
I guess I should have been more specific. NBA rosters are 15 guys so let's just say there are 30 "all star caliber" players. The roster is technically 24 but sometimes a guy gets squeezed out for positions or conferences being out of balance. So let's just say 30.

For a the #1-10 group of course you gut your roster.

For the #11-20 group - probably in most cases you do it.

But that #21-30 group, I'm not so sure it's always worth it. When you start getting that low on the totem pole of "star" I think in many cases you're better off going with a few very good players.

WestCoastSportz
06-30-2017, 12:05 PM
Teams are focused on trying to assemble a team to beat the Warriors this year. What they should be doing is building their team to beat Golden State in a few years. Even if Paul George lands in Houston, they're still not good enough to take down the Warriors. If George goes to the Cavaliers, the Warriors win that series in 6 instead of 4. The Warriors have 2 star players in Curry and Durant. The rest is just players that know their roles and excellent coaching.

Start drafting well and stop overspending on players that don't add W's to the win column would be a start for a team because in the East, its the Cavs and Warriors in the West. In 5 or 6 years, maybe a team like Philly could be the dominant team in the league with guys like Simmons, Embiid and Fultz all in their prime.

FOXHOUND
06-30-2017, 12:07 PM
The thing with Golden State is their depth, you aren't beating them with a Detroit circa 2004 type formula. Those Lakers were extremely top heavy and Detroit flat out had better overall talent because of it.

I agree with Wade, it's about adding talent but also trying to gain a mismatch in your favor. This idea of Boston getting Hayward and George makes no sense to me. You are never beating Golden State at their own game, a weaker "Death" lineup is just a weaker lineup that will lose.

Hawkeye15
06-30-2017, 12:18 PM
It feels like every team is in an "arms race" to get all-stars. Teams are trying to gut their roster for stars and then fill in with role players. At the end of the day though, the stars they're getting aren't as good as Golden State's and the Warriors are still the top destination for ring chasing vet min guys. So teams are going to try and take down GS's model of stars + role players with the same model except worse stars and (probably) worse role players. I don't see it working.

I'm not advocating teams give up on stars. But is getting an "all-star" really worth giving up 2-3 very good but not great players if that all-star isn't even a consensus top 20 overall player in the NBA who will be marginalized as a 3rd wheel (cough... Kevin Love... cough)? Does star chasing reach a point eventually where you're just chasing names rather than actual impact.

nope. You can't compete with a team that built through the draft, got super lucky with amazing value contracts, and had a random cap explosion and the best vagina to ever player become available at the same time.

GS is a monster for a reason. They are the perfect storm of perfect recent management, sheer luck, and an all timer who doesn't have a pair.

mngopher35
06-30-2017, 12:27 PM
Part of the reason I wasn't as overly excited on the butler trade was gs (I am for this season but don't see us as contenders without major major move(s) still). Someone mentioned this above but if you are in position to build for 3+ years from now it's better than going all in now to try and top them IMO.

I guess it's nice we will have a couple more teams with some talent but they are still clearly ahead of the pack (even an injury can still leave them favorites). If you want to beat them you will need a lot of top talent for sure IMO. You will need more than just that but it's also the hardest to get so ya I think loading up is the way to go at least somewhat to have a chance to match up. I wouldn't sell the farm to do so if you have younger talent though, only if you have stars like gs age or older.

warfelg
06-30-2017, 12:34 PM
Here's my thing on the "wait out the Warriors" argument:
You won't sign many players, and in the meantime those guys all sign with the top teams. Meanwhile some fringe players all end up signing with another team and by the time the Warriors dissolve, you got a pretty decent team to compete with because they decided to middle road it. If you're a team with decent player you got to take the plunge. Get them the experience to be ready to pounce as soon as there's an opening.

FOXHOUND
06-30-2017, 12:48 PM
Part of the reason I wasn't as overly excited on the butler trade was gs (I am for this season but don't see us as contenders without major major move(s) still). Someone mentioned this above but if you are in position to build for 3+ years from now it's better than going all in now to try and top them IMO.

I guess it's nice we will have a couple more teams with some talent but they are still clearly ahead of the pack (even an injury can still leave them favorites). If you want to beat them you will need a lot of top talent for sure IMO. You will need more than just that but it's also the hardest to get so ya I think loading up is the way to go at least somewhat to have a chance to match up. I wouldn't sell the farm to do so if you have younger talent though, only if you have stars like gs age or older.

Yeah but Butler is only 27, so he's still just fine on that 3-year window. The Wolves need to start winning now, gaining experience and chemistry. Think of Golden State in 2013 and 2014. I'm not the biggest Kyle Lowry fan, and he's 31-years old, but on a team where he can realistically be the 4th best player on in 3-years?

Lowry
Wiggins
Butler
KAT
Dieng+Patton

That's a pretty good plan, IMO. KAT is the perfect foil for their small ball and can crush them.

FOXHOUND
06-30-2017, 12:50 PM
Here's my thing on the "wait out the Warriors" argument:
You won't sign many players, and in the meantime those guys all sign with the top teams. Meanwhile some fringe players all end up signing with another team and by the time the Warriors dissolve, you got a pretty decent team to compete with because they decided to middle road it. If you're a team with decent player you got to take the plunge. Get them the experience to be ready to pounce as soon as there's an opening.

Yup, exactly.

tp13baby
06-30-2017, 01:17 PM
You can't buy 3 stars because it won't beat the 4 headed monster of GS. You got to draft great, hope 2 become stars and you can sign 2 stars. I don't get this notion of signing 3 stars because they aren't better than the 4 GS has.

mngopher35
06-30-2017, 01:36 PM
Yeah but Butler is only 27, so he's still just fine on that 3-year window. The Wolves need to start winning now, gaining experience and chemistry. Think of Golden State in 2013 and 2014. I'm not the biggest Kyle Lowry fan, and he's 31-years old, but on a team where he can realistically be the 4th best player on in 3-years?

Lowry
Wiggins
Butler
KAT
Dieng+Patton

That's a pretty good plan, IMO. KAT is the perfect foil for their small ball and can crush them.

We will see, that team has a small window outside of GS where Lowry/Butler are still good (considering their ages are similar to Butler and might not fall off as quick either given styles). I am not mad about winning now and getting better but if it means no rings and Butler ages (and Lowry if thats who we get) there will always be that what if (like OKC). There would have been risk in keeping our assets and drafting Dennis Smith (or whoever) too for sure so neither way is perfect. The timeline just fit better with our younger assets, Butler is the better value currently (and for like maybe 5 years) though.

We have to wait and see but given where GS is at and how far away we still are, it could go either way. I love Westy so my hope is OKC is put in a similar spot to Clippers where they trade him for little. We still wouldn't be at GS level but that would be somewhat competitive at least (Westy/Butler/Towns are intense attitude type stars).

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-30-2017, 01:47 PM
The only other way is to tank like Philly did and hope your draft picks all work out great. But that will take too long probably unless that process has already begun.

FOXHOUND
06-30-2017, 01:50 PM
We will see, that team has a small window outside of GS where Lowry/Butler are still good (considering their ages are similar to Butler and might not fall off as quick either given styles). I am not mad about winning now and getting better but if it means no rings and Butler ages (and Lowry if thats who we get) there will always be that what if (like OKC). There would have been risk in keeping our assets and drafting Dennis Smith (or whoever) too for sure so neither way is perfect. The timeline just fit better with our younger assets, Butler is the better value currently (and for like maybe 5 years) though.

We have to wait and see but given where GS is at and how far away we still are, it could go either way. I love Westy so my hope is OKC is put in a similar spot to Clippers where they trade him for little. We still wouldn't be at GS level but that would be somewhat competitive at least (Westy/Butler/Towns are intense attitude type stars).

That's a fair concern, but at the same time players of Butler's caliber in their prime don't become available often. KAT and Wiggins are young enough that even if it fails they'll still be in their prime for the next phase haha.

Westbrook's situation is going to get very interesting going forward but he's going to have that $35M+ salary attached. It's going to be hard to trade for him for cheap value.

Chronz
06-30-2017, 01:55 PM
Yes. If the end result is your team wins more games with said star than without then it holds even truer come playoffs.

Sadly, nobody will ever be able to top KD as no player as great as he has ever joined a team as great without him. It truly has destroyed any semblance of realistic competition in ways I dont think you casual fans have realized yet.

mngopher35
06-30-2017, 01:57 PM
That's a fair concern, but at the same time players of Butler's caliber in their prime don't become available often. KAT and Wiggins are young enough that even if it fails they'll still be in their prime for the next phase haha.

Westbrook's situation is going to get very interesting going forward but he's going to have that $35M+ salary attached. It's going to be hard to trade for him for cheap value.

Agreed, but teams like GS aren't around often and in their prime either haha. That's the key to everything right now if we are talking winning a title. I think it is part of the reason Butler was "sold low" in many peoples opinions, that's just where the league is at right now.

We have Rubio/Dieng who are close to 30 combined I think. We would need to get creative but I think given trading for Butler a big move is what we should be thinking of still.

Chronz
06-30-2017, 02:01 PM
The only other way is to tank like Philly did and hope your draft picks all work out great. But that will take too long probably unless that process has already begun.

Bingo. Several contenders will try to load up like we've never seen before (#armsrace) only to fail because we've never seen someone lack a spine to this degree. THINK about it people, the 2nd or 4th best player joined the best team in the league, didn't create a new contender but legitimately joined the team that was favored to win if he himself didn't exist. You're NOT topping that by adding inferior stars to your smaller quadrant of stars already in place.

This season has shut it for me, KD lshat on his legacy by breaking the game to this degree and I wont ever be convinced otherwise. I cant recall the last time I've made this much money and hated why. The league is DEAD PEOPLE.

BKLYNpigeon
06-30-2017, 02:02 PM
Nope.

I don't think you can assemble a team better then the warriors and especially in kerrs system.

Just wait 3 years. Warriors will have to trade Klay or Draymond.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-30-2017, 02:25 PM
Bingo. Several contenders will try to load up like we've never seen before (#armsrace) only to fail because we've never seen someone lack a spine to this degree. THINK about it people, the 2nd or 4th best player joined the best team in the league, didn't create a new contender but legitimately joined the team that was favored to win if he himself didn't exist. You're NOT topping that by adding inferior stars to your smaller quadrant of stars already in place.

This season has shut it for me, KD lshat on his legacy by breaking the game to this degree and I wont ever be convinced otherwise. I cant recall the last time I've made this much money and hated why. The league is DEAD PEOPLE.

There is only one realistic hope... Lebron has to form another super team better than the one he currently has. IDK if that means he leaves Cleveland or not. I don't want him to leave Cleveland though, and I don't think he will. But still, I could see a big star sacrificing the money to go sign with Cleveland at some point.

The only hope is that Lebron's team is good enough to not be as good as GSW, but to be good enough to compete and then upset them in the Finals.

Nobody else has a shot. Sorry Rockets fans. Sorry Spurs fans.

Hawkeye15
06-30-2017, 04:36 PM
Part of the reason I wasn't as overly excited on the butler trade was gs (I am for this season but don't see us as contenders without major major move(s) still). Someone mentioned this above but if you are in position to build for 3+ years from now it's better than going all in now to try and top them IMO.

I guess it's nice we will have a couple more teams with some talent but they are still clearly ahead of the pack (even an injury can still leave them favorites). If you want to beat them you will need a lot of top talent for sure IMO. You will need more than just that but it's also the hardest to get so ya I think loading up is the way to go at least somewhat to have a chance to match up. I wouldn't sell the farm to do so if you have younger talent though, only if you have stars like gs age or older.

well, the rest of the league can't just give up for 3 years. Injuries/selfishness always happen, we can all hope!

Hawkeye15
06-30-2017, 04:41 PM
Bingo. Several contenders will try to load up like we've never seen before (#armsrace) only to fail because we've never seen someone lack a spine to this degree. THINK about it people, the 2nd or 4th best player joined the best team in the league, didn't create a new contender but legitimately joined the team that was favored to win if he himself didn't exist. You're NOT topping that by adding inferior stars to your smaller quadrant of stars already in place.

This season has shut it for me, KD lshat on his legacy by breaking the game to this degree and I wont ever be convinced otherwise. I cant recall the last time I've made this much money and hated why. The league is DEAD PEOPLE.

I will follow my Wolves, but in general, I watched less bball this past year, and will again next year. What is the ****ing point? It's the biggest talent disparity between the top team and everyone else in the history of the modern NBA (post merger). Durant's vagina killed the league for competitive purposes. But as long as the mindless bandwagoners keep those ratings up, who cares, right?

Chronz
06-30-2017, 06:17 PM
I'm hoping kd reverse engineering his greatness backfires to the point where even the laymen can see through it. What a ducking coward man

Gibby23
06-30-2017, 06:22 PM
I will follow my Wolves, but in general, I watched less bball this past year, and will again next year. What is the ****ing point? It's the biggest talent disparity between the top team and everyone else in the history of the modern NBA (post merger). Durant's vagina killed the league for competitive purposes. But as long as the mindless bandwagoners keep those ratings up, who cares, right?

Same here. Just watched the Lakers this year, and then some of the playoffs, and all of the Finals.

WestCoastSportz
06-30-2017, 06:29 PM
I'm hoping kd reverse engineering his greatness backfires to the point where even the laymen can see through it. What a ducking coward man

Your hating on a guy that did what many others in his position would have done, but you seem to ignore the fact that a team that won 73 games was even able to sign KD. You don't think if the Cavaliers had the cap space that they would have tried to sign him? How about the other 15 teams that were over the cap? You don't think they wanted to sign him. The fact is that they couldn't even if they wanted to. At least not straight up. You have these teams that are 2 or 5 seeds overspending on free agents to go there and make them competitive. They're assembling a team instead of building one like Golden State.

Its not a coward move. It was the right move for him and for the Warriors. Its not his fault the stars aligned just right and its definitely not the Warriors fault for managing their finances. Instead of hating on Durant, maybe you should hate on the other teams that can't seem to get it right no matter how much they try because the Warriors did exactly what the cap is there for.

Dade County
06-30-2017, 06:37 PM
You atleast need 1 of these X factors to challenge GS.

Lbj, Westbrook, AD & Giannis.

Now the key is, how does a team get 2 of these guys on the same team; after that, surround them with shooters & 1 true big man.

West
Shooter(abel to hit 5-7 threes per game)
3&D (hit 4 threes a game)
AD
Whiteside (or any other athletic big that can at least score)

FlashBolt
06-30-2017, 06:40 PM
You atleast need 1 of these X factors to challenge GS.

Lbj, Westbrook, AD & Giannis.

Now the key is, how does a team get 2 of these guys on the same team; after that, surround them with shooters & 1 true big man.

West
Shooter(abel to hit 5-7 threes per game)
3&D (hit 4 threes a game)
AD
Whiteside (or any other athletic big that can at least score)

Or Kawhi.. I totally disagree with Westbrook. He's a legendary individual player but his gameplay doesn't really fit well with another elite caliber player. It should be enough if you have a guy like KD but not many KD's are out there for you to play with. I thought OKC was stupid not to trade Westbrook for a pass-first PG like CP3 years ago but seeing as our team is stuck with the salary, we can't do that.

Dade County
06-30-2017, 06:45 PM
Your hating on a guy that did what many others in his position would have done, but you seem to ignore the fact that a team that won 73 games was even able to sign KD. You don't think if the Cavaliers had the cap space that they would have tried to sign him? How about the other 15 teams that were over the cap? You don't think they wanted to sign him. The fact is that they couldn't even if they wanted to. At least not straight up. You have these teams that are 2 or 5 seeds overspending on free agents to go there and make them competitive. They're assembling a team instead of building one like Golden State.

Its not a coward move. It was the right move for him and for the Warriors. Its not his fault the stars aligned just right and its definitely not the Warriors fault for managing their finances. Instead of hating on Durant, maybe you should hate on the other teams that can't seem to get it right no matter how much they try because the Warriors did exactly what the cap is there for.

It was the right move for him, but still a coward move. The most cowardly sports move ever.

But so what, he won. We can all move on. I just will never separate him from the team, when considering accolades; all I say is Golden State won the championship.

It's like Jordan leaving and joining Boston or Pistons in the 80's. Or Lbj leaving, & joing Boston, & he wins the Championship the following year; could you even comprehend, the hate, and blasting that he would have received! Lol

Dade County
06-30-2017, 06:50 PM
Or Kawhi.. I totally disagree with Westbrook. He's a legendary individual player but his gameplay doesn't really fit well with another elite caliber player. It should be enough if you have a guy like KD but not many KD's are out there for you to play with. I thought OKC was stupid not to trade Westbrook for a pass-first PG like CP3 years ago but seeing as our team is stuck with the salary, we can't do that.

Well i have to add him... His relentless attacking nature, is one of the key reasons why he is needed.

He just needs a better system around him & a coach he will listen too.

Kawhi is good but he isn't an athletic freak like the other guys. But yes, he is needed.

FlashBolt
06-30-2017, 07:04 PM
Well i have to add him... His relentless attacking nature, is one of the key reasons why he is needed.

He just needs a better system around him & a coach he will listen too.

Kawhi is good but he isn't an athletic freak like the other guys. But yes, he is needed.

What system would you say fits RWB? He does everything so well but part of his game depends on his recklessness and unexpected plays.

Dade County
06-30-2017, 07:25 PM
What system would you say fits RWB? He does everything so well but part of his game depends on his recklessness and unexpected plays.

Well almost the same system Harden is in right now, mixed with coach Spo system.

Learning that if you give up the ball, most likely it will find you as you move around the court. Don't settle for the good shot, pass for a better shot.

I think Spo could turn West into a mini Lbj lol

warfelg
06-30-2017, 07:29 PM
Not trying to homer it up at all but I think a team built around a healthy Embiid could really give GSW fits. Long active defender who can hold his own in space, can bang in the post and spread out and hit a shot.

I would even leave him in against their LOD group. Which guy is picking him up? KD isn't strong enough and Green gives up too much height to be frank.

Laker Legend42
06-30-2017, 09:45 PM
I'm real interested to see what happens with Houston and golden state. I find it odd that kd says that he will wait until later in the month to sign. I wouldn't be shocked if while he's waiting he likes the moves the rockets are making while the warriors are losing iggy and Shaun Livingston then he goes and signs with his boy with the beard. Houston cleared out a lot of roster spots in the cp3 deal and I can see them attempting to pull off something huge.