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View Full Version : Was Houston among the worst fits for CP3?



JasonJohnHorn
06-28-2017, 08:45 PM
CP3 seems to thrive in systems where is he the primary ball handler and is setting up other players.


With James Harden having led the league in assists last year, it seems like Houston's current system isn't in dire need of a player like Paul, though Harden could simply go back to SG and take on ball-handling duties when Paul is sitting.


Was this a bad fit for Paul? Or does the new Houston squad have real potential to excel now? And if so, how will Paul make them better.

I feel like it will be a bad fit, but I'm not entirely sold on that position. Open to being convinced otherwise.

Jamiecballer
06-28-2017, 08:55 PM
CP3 seems to thrive in systems where is he the primary ball handler and is setting up other players.


With James Harden having led the league in assists last year, it seems like Houston's current system isn't in dire need of a player like Paul, though Harden could simply go back to SG and take on ball-handling duties when Paul is sitting.


Was this a bad fit for Paul? Or does the new Houston squad have real potential to excel now? And if so, how will Paul make them better.

I feel like it will be a bad fit, but I'm not entirely sold on that position. Open to being convinced otherwise.

i agree with you but it's a gut level feeling and will openly be mocked so i won't go too far into it. i believe houston found a way to absolutely maximize every ounce of talent out of harden last year and i believe they would have been better to upgrade in a way that kept that dynamic intact but still getting CP3 probably makes them at least a little better i would think.

GOON MUSIC
06-28-2017, 09:01 PM
I just wanna see him in a D'antoni style system

hugepatsfan
06-28-2017, 09:14 PM
It's not the perfect fit but it's what was available to them and he makes them a lot better.

IndyRealist
06-28-2017, 09:18 PM
Houston's offense falls apart when Harden isn't on the floor. Having Paul can only help.

Eye Test
06-28-2017, 09:20 PM
I'm only glad Har_en won't be able to win the MVP award with Chris there, would be a disgrace for basketball honestly.

mavwar53
06-28-2017, 09:26 PM
Does it devalue Harden, yes. Is it a good fit for Paul in terms of system, yes.

My issue with it is I don't like that it devalues harden, but most of all, both players have terrible playoff history. Harden has failed epically the last 2 times he's faced elimination. CP3 hasn't been anywhere in the playoffs and seems to get injuries at the worst times. I remember the warriors during their entire season and throughout the playoffs that the would only get over 1 hump at a time each year. Quarterfinals, conference finals, and finals. I think that holds true here but with the dubs and spurs in the same conference the rockets may never get over that quarterfinals hump with these 2 and D'Antoni.

Chewbacca
06-28-2017, 09:32 PM
With Harden arguably the best PG in the game being paired up with 1st team all defensive player Patrick Beverley in the backcourt… then yes I agree. CP3 could have fit better with other teams such as San Antonio(CP3,Kawhi,LA) or say the New Orleans Hornets(CP3,Davis,Cousins).

He does improve the Rockets though. I'm assuming CP3 looked at the top contenders in the league besides the Warriors and felt like Houston had the best shot against Golden State. The only teams that could possibly win 1 or 2 games against the Warriors in a series before this trade were the Spurs,Cavs, and maaaaybe Rockets/Boston. I would've picked the Spurs but the Rockets would've been my second choice since Cavs are not an option.

Htownballa1622
06-28-2017, 09:32 PM
Yeah it's a bad thing to upgrade a position and fill a need of a secondary playmaker we didn't really have.

Holy ****

Do people understand basketball?

da ThRONe
06-28-2017, 09:33 PM
Yeah it's a poor fit. I think Houston was better off saving those assets for Paul George. However the iron was hot and they struck. Like it's has been mentioned on paper they are better for it. The problem is they still aren't close enough to GS as is. I think for any team to have a chance to beat the Warriors they'll have to maximize fit(this deal doesn't do that for the Rockets) and be able to get physical with them(this deal also does nothing for that). So I don't see the point if the goal is to compete now and considering Paul is 32 I would think that's the purpose. All in all I don't like the deal for HOU. If you're the LAC and Chris was leaving anyways whatever you can get is a plus.

Eye Test
06-28-2017, 09:36 PM
No one will be able to beat the warriors for next 2 years at least anyway so from that perspective it might be a bad trade, if I were a GM and could get CP3 for next to nothing i'd do it no question tho.

Mell413
06-28-2017, 09:40 PM
I'm somewhat surprised this many people are complaining about the fit. Maybe it's not perfect, but I think it will work.

GREATNESS ONE
06-28-2017, 09:48 PM
lol what? You guys are serious? You really think CP3/Harden is bad? Two primary Dominant ball handlers who have a ton of talent moves and experience of scoring?

They're not beating the Warriors just yet but this team is excellent and CP3/Harden is going to light it up next year.

Each play excellent off the ball, each play excellent with the ball, this is a great match. If we're talking 5 years ago (CP3) or so, this a bad match but an older CO3 this is perfect. Now get Melo or Cousins? Or both?

IndyRealist
06-28-2017, 09:49 PM
These were the exact same arguments when Lebron went to Miami, and when KD went to Golden State. Those worked out ok.

da ThRONe
06-28-2017, 10:10 PM
These were the exact same arguments when Lebron went to Miami, and when KD went to Golden State. Those worked out ok.

This is nothing like Durant going to the Warriors. You can never have too many shooters. It's closer to what happened with the Heat but Wade is a natural slasher and was as dynamic off ball as he was with it the rock and all three of James, Wade and Bosh were excellent defenders at the time.

With Paul and Harden you have two of the most ball dominated players in the league. While they are both far too smart and talented for it to be a disaster. I don't see how this makes them significantly better.

WaDe03
06-28-2017, 10:16 PM
Yeah it's a bad thing to upgrade a position and fill a need of a secondary playmaker we didn't really have.

Holy ****

Do people understand basketball?

This ffs!!!! They will be fine and they will be a much tougher out come playoff time now AND they aren't even done upgrading the roster.

Goodness it just completely baffles me that people think there can only be 1 ball handler on good teams.

I challenge PSD to tell me the last 3 championship teams that only had 1 player that "needed the ball in their hands"

IndyRealist
06-28-2017, 10:18 PM
This is nothing like Durant going to the Warriors. You can never have too many shooters. It's closer to what happened with the Heat but Wade is a natural slasher and was as dynamic off ball as he was with it the rock and all three of James, Wade and Bosh were excellent defenders at the time.

With Paul and Harden you have two of the most ball dominated players in the league. While they are both far too smart and talented for it to be a disaster. I don't see how this makes them significantly better.
Stephon Marbury's Knicks would disagree.

Ask Klay Thompson if he wasn't getting questions about fit and there not being enough basketballs on the court.

Htownballa1622
06-28-2017, 10:43 PM
This ffs!!!! They will be fine and they will be a much tougher out come playoff time now AND they aren't even done upgrading the roster.

Goodness it just completely baffles me that people think there can only be 1 ball handler on good teams.

I challenge PSD to tell me the last 3 championship teams that only had 1 player that "needed the ball in their hands"

I'm legitimately confused. When harden was moved to point guard, "it wouldn't work."

Now that he's back to having another playmaker,its bad?

Narratives are so dumb sometimes. Are we beating the warriors as constructed? No? They're a juggernaut!

Are we closer now than b4? Of course? I'd rather keep trying to upgrade rather than just sit around. :shrug:

Raps18-19 Champ
06-28-2017, 10:45 PM
No because if he went to any other team with a SG/SF star (most of the stars are SG/SF), he'd have to share the ball with another high usage player anyway. Harden is pretty versatile offensively so it's going to work well enough. Even if it doesn't, it's only 1 year and not like any other teams were much better this year.

WaDe03
06-28-2017, 10:50 PM
I'm legitimately confused. When harden was moved to point guard, "it wouldn't work."

Now that he's back to having another playmaker,its bad?

Narratives are so dumb sometimes. Are we beating the warriors as constructed? No? They're a juggernaut!

Are we closer now than b4? Of course? I'd rather keep trying to upgrade rather than just sit around. :shrug:

I agree man. It's ridiculous to just sit around and let a team win every year like some suggest. Anything can happen and this is going to be a crazy offseason

da ThRONe
06-28-2017, 10:59 PM
Stephon Marbury's Knicks would disagree.

Ask Klay Thompson if he wasn't getting questions about fit and there not being enough basketballs on the court.

So because the media (who often times aren't very knowledgeable about the sport) thought that the Warriors may not work it was a bad fit? Klay, Steph, and Kevin aren't just great scorers they are 3 of the best shooters the game has ever seen. Plus they already had a system where the ball moved often. Shooting isn't a skill that is redundant.

Jamiecballer
06-28-2017, 11:15 PM
These were the exact same arguments when Lebron went to Miami, and when KD went to Golden State. Those worked out ok.
I would agree on miami. And even though people will say I'm crazy I think it proved to be true. All things considered the results were short of expectations.

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nastynice
06-28-2017, 11:34 PM
I would agree on miami. And even though people will say I'm crazy I think it proved to be true. All things considered the results were short of expectations.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Way short of expectation. I feel they were at least as talented as golden state, tbh I think more. Lebron was better than KD, Wade and curry pretty even, bosh clearly better than either Klay or dray. Had pieces too, like Mike Miller, battier, Ray Allen.

Golden state got the fit tho. You can't **** with the fit baby!

JasonJohnHorn
06-28-2017, 11:39 PM
I'm only glad Har_en won't be able to win the MVP award with Chris there, would be a disgrace for basketball honestly.

And between Har_en and 'Antoni... I could see CP3 throwing fits at the lack of defense. He won't be happy about that, but he may change the team culture in that respect, which would make them better.

mightybosstone
06-28-2017, 11:48 PM
Mike D'Antoni's offense was tailor-made for Paul's game. CP3 has never played in an offense like this before, and he will absolutely thrive, to say this was a bad fit is just completely asinine. Will he have to share the ball with Harden? Obviously, but as I said about half a dozen times today, there hasn't been a dominant team in the last decade that DIDN'T have two primary ball-dominant players. Since when is having more playmakers a bad thing?

Also, I actually think this is still way too early to answer that question. Because with Paul's ability to attract other players and Morey's ability to work the salary cap like a wizard, there's no way this roster is near complete. Let's ask whether or not this looks like a good fit in 2-3 weeks when the Rockets roster has taken shape and we know the guys he's going to be around.

JordansBulls
06-29-2017, 12:32 AM
They need to get Blake now.

JWorthy42
06-29-2017, 01:23 AM
I think this is only going to help Harden, and force defenses to focus on two major play-makers. However, Houston now needs to make up for all the defense that they lost with Beverley.

Bostonjorge
06-29-2017, 01:24 AM
Paul can fit on any team. He's still elite and is going to play for the best PG coach. It should be a perfect fit. Paul should be able to help Harden lead the league is scoring.

mohye
06-29-2017, 01:31 AM
That extension he's going to want next year is gonna be a bad contract.

However, he is a top 5 pg in the NBA. How can you blame Houston for making the trade?

Saddletramp
06-29-2017, 01:39 AM
Way short of expectation. I feel they were at least as talented as golden state, tbh I think more.

Nope. Except for having the absolute best player of the two teams.


Lebron was better than KD,

True.


Wade and curry pretty even,

True......for the first year or so. Then Wade went down hill and got injured too much.


bosh clearly better than either Klay or dray.

Neither on either but now you're including both??????


Had pieces too, like Mike Miller, battier, Ray Allen.

Miller was only there the first three years but was injured a lot and wasn't anywhere near what Iggy brings. And Battier and Allen showed up after Wade started not being Wade.


Golden state got the fit tho. You can't **** with the fit baby!

True. And they're all fitting at the same time, not over a period of 4 years. Context, bro; you lack understanding it.

nastynice
06-29-2017, 01:48 AM
Nope. Except for having the absolute best player of the two teams.



True.



True......for the first year or so. Then Wade went down hill and got injured too much.



Neither on either but now you're including both??????



Miller was only there the first three years but was injured a lot and wasn't anywhere near what Iggy brings. And Battier and Allen showed up after Wade started not being Wade.



True. And they're all fitting at the same time, not over a period of 4 years. Context, bro; you lack understanding it.

Bosh was an elite player. You could build around Bosh. Speaking of understanding...

Sure, Wades decline played a role, but even when on, they never tore through the playoffs the way the Warriors did. Would that fall under context?

Saddletramp
06-29-2017, 02:02 AM
Bosh was an elite player. You could build around Bosh. Speaking of understanding...

Sure, Wades decline played a role, but even when on, they never tore through the playoffs the way the Warriors did. Would that fall under context?

Build around Bosh to become a borderline playoff team. He doesn't do anything better than Klay's shooting or Draymond's defense/leadership. Please.



I'm so glad this whole crock of Klay is better than Harden has died down. Klay would be like Bosh if he were the only star on his team (borderline playoffs), while Harden has proved he's more valuable.


And as far as cruising through the playoffs.....you were comparing the two teams and now you're distancing them? WT****?

COOLbeans
06-29-2017, 02:39 AM
Build around Bosh to become a borderline playoff team. He doesn't do anything better than Klay's shooting or Draymond's defense/leadership. Please.



I'm so glad this whole crock of Klay is better than Harden has died down. Klay would be like Bosh if he were the only star on his team (borderline playoffs), while Harden has proved he's more valuable.


And as far as cruising through the playoffs.....you were comparing the two teams and now you're distancing them? WT****?

HArden is a primary ball handler while Klay is a far better shooter. Put Klay with Dantoni and he's perceived as a far superior player than he is now. He would be let loose and I don't think many people have seen that since Thompson played in summer league or when he broke the record for the most points scored in a quarter ever. I think he also has the second of 3rd most points in a quarter ever as well

BKLYNpigeon
06-29-2017, 02:41 AM
Do the math.

In ball dominant per game.

Harden #3
Cp3 #7

BKLYNpigeon
06-29-2017, 02:43 AM
Rockets were stupid to give up assets for cp3. Should have just got him for free.

Pat Beverly and Lou Williams are worth a first round pick each. So essentially they gave up three first round picks.

nastynice
06-29-2017, 02:45 AM
Build around Bosh to become a borderline playoff team. He doesn't do anything better than Klay's shooting or Draymond's defense/leadership. Please.



I'm so glad this whole crock of Klay is better than Harden has died down. Klay would be like Bosh if he were the only star on his team (borderline playoffs), while Harden has proved he's more valuable.


And as far as cruising through the playoffs.....you were comparing the two teams and now you're distancing them? WT****?

You build a good team around bosh and they are legitimately gonna make some deep playoff pushes. Bosh was almost getting 20 and 10 WITH wade and lebron being the first and second option, AND while playing a completely new role. His post game in toronto was absolutely filthy, much better than kevin love's, a pf everybody was saying was the best pf in the league a couple years ago (I didn't agree) mostly predicated on his post game. I really don't know what to say, Bosh was elite, he was an ELITE player that could rebound, play in the post, shoot, and play defense all at a very high level. Klay and Draymond are both very good players, and both are elite at something on top of being very well rounded, but neither were on Bosh's level as an overall player. I'm not even understanding why this is being debated.

I'm comparing the two teams saying they both have ridiculous talent, but because of fit the warriors are just much more lethal, despite maybe not even having as much raw talent.

Saddletramp
06-29-2017, 03:00 AM
You build a good team around bosh and they are legitimately gonna make some deep playoff pushes. Bosh was almost getting 20 and 10 WITH wade and lebron being the first and second option, AND while playing a completely new role. His post game in toronto was absolutely filthy, much better than kevin love's, a pf everybody was saying was the best pf in the league a couple years ago (I didn't agree) mostly predicated on his post game. I really don't know what to say, Bosh was elite, he was an ELITE player that could rebound, play in the post, shoot, and play defense all at a very high level. Klay and Draymond are both very good players, and both are elite at something on top of being very well rounded, but neither were on Bosh's level as an overall player. I'm not even understanding why this is being debated.

I'm comparing the two teams saying they both have ridiculous talent, but because of fit the warriors are just much more lethal, despite maybe not even having as much raw talent.

Love and Bosh put up good stats on bad or average teams. Put them on an actual contender, they come back down to earth. But regardless, you just casually compared Bosh to Klay AND Green. Why do I even debate anything you say.

Saddletramp
06-29-2017, 03:03 AM
HArden is a primary ball handler while Klay is a far better shooter. Put Klay with Dantoni and he's perceived as a far superior player than he is now. He would be let loose and I don't think many people have seen that since Thompson played in summer league or when he broke the record for the most points scored in a quarter ever. I think he also has the second of 3rd most points in a quarter ever as well

If Klay was the only star on a D'Antoni team, he'd be double teamed every time he'd touch the ball. Hard to catch and shoot when you're the only star on your team.

Vinylman
06-29-2017, 06:38 AM
what a shock... the pole smoking dubs fans at it again

we get it ... the dubs walk on water and no improvement to any team can possibly make the dubs vulnerable

Redrum187
06-29-2017, 06:54 AM
No because if he went to any other team with a SG/SF star (most of the stars are SG/SF), he'd have to share the ball with another high usage player anyway. Harden is pretty versatile offensively so it's going to work well enough. Even if it doesn't, it's only 1 year and not like any other teams were much better this year.

I pretty much agree 100% with this. What did Houston really give up? This was worth it and any GM who wouldn't do this if it was offered should be fired on the spot.

Of course it's not the greatest fit... but it still moves the needle some. More importantly, it's a huge asset to have.

IndyRealist
06-29-2017, 07:11 AM
So because the media (who often times aren't very knowledgeable about the sport) thought that the Warriors may not work it was a bad fit? Klay, Steph, and Kevin aren't just great scorers they are 3 of the best shooters the game has ever seen. Plus they already had a system where the ball moved often. Shooting isn't a skill that is redundant.
As opposed to sports fans who often aren't very knowledgeable about the sport?

Kyben36
06-29-2017, 07:27 AM
I don't get it myself. but it's not like harden can't play off ball. I think there were many other better routes to go than this though.

FOXHOUND
06-29-2017, 07:51 AM
Both will have to make adjustments to their games, but there's really no way to know until we see how they play. The question is how much of their strong play is reliant on their ball dominance and if them having it less drops their impact then by how much? They are definitely better in basically getting Paul in place of Beverley and Williams, the only question is how much better?

Another odd factor of fit is that Paul plays a very anti-D'Antoni styled game. I mean in terms of the pick n roll, that fits very well, but he's also a dominant mid-range player. Is he going to tell Paul to stop shooting mid-range shots and start chucking more 3s, when Paul is one of the best mid-range shooters ever and doesn't have the physical capability to thrive at the rim as much as someone like Harden?

If you look at Paul's shooting chart;

FG frequency by range in 2016-17
0-3: .074
3-10: .070
10-16: .210
16 < 3: .261
3: .385

So 47% of his FGA come from 10 < 3 range, the "forbidden" zone of the D'Antoni offense while just 14% come within 10 feet. Paul is too old and not athletic or big enough to really change those within 10 feet numbers, so is D'Antoni going to reshape his offense for him?

That's where my skepticism lies on the move, but I'm interested in seeing how it all works out.

da ThRONe
06-29-2017, 07:57 AM
As opposed to sports fans who often aren't very knowledgeable about the sport?

The premise is still the same. Just because somebody regardless of credentials questions something that makes it logical? You can never have too many excellent shooters.

warfelg
06-29-2017, 08:01 AM
I'm not buying this "worst fit" or "terrible fit".

Personally I think Harden is going to play better with being able to move off ball more. His efficiency should go up. And in CP3's case, this is the first time he's playing with 2-3 guys that can all step out and hit shots. Having Aziera, Harden, and Anderson (potentially) on the wings, giving CP3 and Capella the space to operate in the paint is amazing. Having those two run a PnR with Harden as a secondary option is great for them.

I think this is going to work out just fine and Houston is going to offensively be one of the best and most efficient teams this year.

IndyRealist
06-29-2017, 08:15 AM
The premise is still the same. Just because somebody regardless of credentials questions something that makes it logical? You can never have too many excellent shooters.
That's exactly what's happening here, a bunch of people with limited basketball acumen are questioning the fit of CP3 on Houston. The exact same question occurred in Miami, AND in Golden State. Ball dominant players, who is the 1a, etc. It literally happened, which is what I pointed out. You're arguing against a fact.

FOXHOUND
06-29-2017, 08:29 AM
I'm not buying this "worst fit" or "terrible fit".

Personally I think Harden is going to play better with being able to move off ball more. His efficiency should go up. And in CP3's case, this is the first time he's playing with 2-3 guys that can all step out and hit shots. Having Aziera, Harden, and Anderson (potentially) on the wings, giving CP3 and Capella the space to operate in the paint is amazing. Having those two run a PnR with Harden as a secondary option is great for them.

I think this is going to work out just fine and Houston is going to offensively be one of the best and most efficient teams this year.

D'Antoni and his system don't have a good history when paired with mid-range dominant stars, so it's definitely something to take into consideration with Paul.

This year, Harden's TS% was higher than his previous two years when he was also super high volume but played off ball more and it was his 2nd highest in Houston overall. While his turnovers went up, his TOV% didn't raise a whole lot while his AST% did.

TS%, AST% and TOV% in 2014-16
.602, 35.0% and 15.4%

TS%, AST% and TOV% in 2016-17
.613, 50.7% and 19.5%

This was definitely Harden's best year in Houston, so I don't see how him playing more like the previous years makes him a better player. There is a real possibility that both Harden and Paul are not as good as they were this season, and while that's still almost certainly enough to make this move an improvement there is a question of how much better they will be, or more so if it will be enough.

San Antonio was definitely a better fit for Paul from a play style perspective, there is zero doubt about that.

mightybosstone
06-29-2017, 08:50 AM
Both will have to make adjustments to their games, but there's really no way to know until we see how they play. The question is how much of their strong play is reliant on their ball dominance and if them having it less drops their impact then by how much? They are definitely better in basically getting Paul in place of Beverley and Williams, the only question is how much better?

Another odd factor of fit is that Paul plays a very anti-D'Antoni styled game. I mean in terms of the pick n roll, that fits very well, but he's also a dominant mid-range player. Is he going to tell Paul to stop shooting mid-range shots and start chucking more 3s, when Paul is one of the best mid-range shooters ever and doesn't have the physical capability to thrive at the rim as much as someone like Harden?

If you look at Paul's shooting chart;

FG frequency by range in 2016-17
0-3: .074
3-10: .070
10-16: .210
16 < 3: .261
3: .385

So 47% of his FGA come from 10 < 3 range, the "forbidden" zone of the D'Antoni offense while just 14% come within 10 feet. Paul is too old and not athletic or big enough to really change those within 10 feet numbers, so is D'Antoni going to reshape his offense for him?

That's where my skepticism lies on the move, but I'm interested in seeing how it all works out.

I think Morey and D'Antoni can live with Paul taking a few mid-range shots every night. That's a small price to pay for an influx of talent this significant.

And everybody is going to have to make some small concessions to their games to make this work. But that's not uncommon when two star playmakers join the same roster. We've seen this before, and we've seen it work before.

da ThRONe
06-29-2017, 08:50 AM
That's exactly what's happening here, a bunch of people with limited basketball acumen are questioning the fit of CP3 on Houston. The exact same question occurred in Miami, AND in Golden State. Ball dominant players, who is the 1a, etc. It literally happened, which is what I pointed out. You're arguing against a fact.

I never said people didn't doubt both the Heat or the Warriors. What I'm saying is that those who did doesn't really understand the game especially when you consider the Warriors. The only hope(if you were a GS hater) was that GS guys wouldn't want to sacrifice shots. Not so much that these guys couldn't all be used to their greatest potentials. They already had a ball movement system of unselfish play where really talent players got their shots. Then they replaced OK Harrison Barnes with out of this world Kevin Durant. Who didn't see this coming?

I think the Heat doubt was more warranted and initially there was some growing pains with two ball domiated players. But as Ball dominated as Wade and James are/were Paul and Harden are that much more ball stoppers. Again Paul/Harden won't be a disaster but I see this as small step forward this year and potentially a huge step backwards 2018 when Paul becomes a FA and is due a huge raise.

warfelg
06-29-2017, 09:27 AM
I think Morey and D'Antoni can live with Paul taking a few mid-range shots every night. That's a small price to pay for an influx of talent this significant.

Agreed. I also have the personal question of how much of CP3's "high" number of midrange shots (25% from 16ft-3pt line) was because of the system he was in. A few things I think about LAC:
~That team had horrible spacing, which I think played into his high number of midrange shots
~They relied on a pick and roll with a pair of bigs that can't pop for the shot.
~Doc Rivers. That's all.


And everybody is going to have to make some small concessions to their games to make this work. But that's not uncommon when two star playmakers join the same roster. We've seen this before, and we've seen it work before.

Yup. I can see some saving of both guys in this situation. When they are both on CP3 is the primary guy, Harden Secondary. CP3 goes off and Harden takes over. Harden gets a break and CP3 is on and Gordon is secondary.

TheDish87
06-29-2017, 09:59 AM
Paul is a smart guy, if he thinks he can fit with the Rockets then you should trust it. I believe he mentioned wanting to get off the ball a bit so this makes sense to split duties with Harden. It doesnt hurt to have one of the, if not the best offensive coach in the league.

ewing
06-29-2017, 10:32 AM
They will be good. Mike D will get Paul to pull the trigger on O more too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NYY 26 to 7
06-29-2017, 10:33 AM
That's exactly what's happening here, a bunch of people with limited basketball acumen are questioning the fit of CP3 on Houston. The exact same question occurred in Miami, AND in Golden State. Ball dominant players, who is the 1a, etc. It literally happened, which is what I pointed out. You're arguing against a fact.

I don't think there was a legit question of fit in Golden State. It took a season for Miami to really put it together but Bosh sacrificed a ton and once Wade deferred in season 2 they reached their potential. Watching LeBron stand in the corner during the finals against the Mavs though made it clear that they had a hard time balancing the fit.

In this case I'm not personally a fan of the fit but it can work out great if Harden is willing to play off the ball. If you have CP3 his strength is a a pure pg running the p&r. Harden can do that but can also excel off the ball and that will be the key.

Don't see this putting them anywhere near the Warriors though still. And if they give CP3 that extension paying him $40m a year at age 38 not sure I love this but respect them going after it by adding a great player and competitor. I would love to see some competitive basketball at least at some point in the playoffs next year.

brandt
06-29-2017, 11:55 AM
Houston's offense falls apart when Harden isn't on the floor. Having Paul can only help.
No they don't. Your just assuming that because he was their only superstar, but they played just as well if not better sometimes when he was on the bench.

brandt
06-29-2017, 12:03 PM
They need to get Blake now.
He'll no! It didn't work in LA, why would it work in Houston?

Vinylman
06-29-2017, 12:05 PM
No they don't. Your just assuming that because he was their only superstar, but they played just as well if not better sometimes when he was on the bench.

yeah umm... I don't want to clutter your opinion with facts but here ya go

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/on-off/2017

brandt
06-29-2017, 12:07 PM
Rockets were stupid to give up assets for cp3. Should have just got him for free.

Pat Beverly and Lou Williams are worth a first round pick each. So essentially they gave up three first round picks.

For free? Are you sure they were the stupid ones???

Chronz
06-29-2017, 02:11 PM
You mmother ****ers just don't get it do you. Morey going for more than an all time great team. He wants to win a title in 2018

IndyRealist
06-29-2017, 04:24 PM
No they don't. Your just assuming that because he was their only superstar, but they played just as well if not better sometimes when he was on the bench.

No, I'm assuming I live in Houston.

Sssmush
06-29-2017, 05:46 PM
It's hard to say Lebron is the GOAT if Durant spanks him in the Finals every year for the next five years.

Put that Houston team in the East its in the Finals. In the West... meh. CP3 hasnt got great results in the playoffs and houston doesnt defend. Curry >> CP3. Durant greater than Harden its not even close. Harden will have to act like a 2 its redundant, and they probably aggravate each other. I like Harden better than CP3.

Nice experiment but yeah this is whack. Puts them over the Clippers and probable edge on SA but its all very marginal.

east fb knicks
06-29-2017, 06:23 PM
horrible fit

bleedprple&gold
06-29-2017, 06:30 PM
Maybe with CP3 taking some of the offensive load, Harden will have more energy and actually try to play defense?

Chronz
06-29-2017, 10:09 PM
Maybe with CP3 taking some of the offensive load, Harden will have more energy and actually try to play defense?

Yeah thats the only way this works, if Harden actually sacks up on that end for a change. Same with Kyrie, Im sick of the man not caring about one end of the court.

ewing
06-30-2017, 11:27 AM
horrible fit

Yeah, pick and roll guys with great court vision and a jump shot struggle under mike d


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da ThRONe
06-30-2017, 01:22 PM
Yeah, pick and roll guys with great court vision and a jump shot struggle under mike d


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Has he ever had two ball dominate guards that'll need to play at least 36mins a picee though?

FOXHOUND
06-30-2017, 01:25 PM
Has he ever had two ball dominate guards that'll need to play at least 36mins a picee though?

He failed to use his system with Melo and Kobe, two of the best mid-range scorers of all-time. Chris Paul took 47% of his FGA from the 10 < 3 foot range last season. The question of fit is very valid when it comes to Mike D'Antoni. It's much more that than anything with Paul and Harden.

warfelg
06-30-2017, 01:26 PM
He failed to use his system with Melo and Kobe, two of the best mid-range scorers of all-time. Chris Paul took 47% of his FGA from the 10 < 3 foot range last season. The question of fit is very valid when it comes to Mike D'Antoni. It's much more that than anything with Paul and Harden.

I do question how much of that is Doc though.

FOXHOUND
06-30-2017, 01:41 PM
I do question how much of that is Doc though.

That's all Paul, he's one of the best mid-range shooters in NBA history. That move where he comes off the pick, takes it to the opposite elbow and takes that falling away jumper is his bread and butter. He takes 42% of his shots from those ranges in his career and it's gone up as he's gotten older/post knee injury. He hasn't taken at least 15% of his shots from the 0-3 foot range since 2011-12 and hasn't been at 20%+ since 2008-09. Last year, he took just 7% of his shots from that range and it's just 10% over the last 4 seasons.

This is going to be the ultimate test of the D'Antoni/Morey mindset on mid-range shots. Paul shot .497 from 10-16 and .498 from 16 < 3 last season, which is great on that volume, but in their analytic world that still isn't efficient enough vs chucking far more 3's. I can see him shooting more 3s but he already shot 38% of his shots from 3 last year, by far a career high when he had never been at 30% prior. Just hard to imagine him cutting out so much of his mid-range game when he's so deadly with it.

bleedprple&gold
06-30-2017, 01:43 PM
Yeah thats the only way this works, if Harden actually sacks up on that end for a change. Same with Kyrie, Im sick of the man not caring about one end of the court.

Yeah seems like these guys just conserve all their energy for the offensive end. You wonder if they would be as good offensively if they actually expended effort on the defensive instead of using that time to rest.

Chronz
06-30-2017, 02:13 PM
He failed to use his system with Melo and Kobe, two of the best mid-range scorers of all-time. Chris Paul took 47% of his FGA from the 10 < 3 foot range last season. The question of fit is very valid when it comes to Mike D'Antoni. It's much more that than anything with Paul and Harden.

Im with you guys on the fit issue but its more because of he AND Harden than the system but realistically how much of a difference in productivity will it cause? Melo isn't a fair comp IMO since hes not really in the same class as a player. Kobe had something of a resurgence compared to the twin towers system he played in the year prior and much of the fit issues that year stemmed in the frontcourt more than anything, either way, Kobe wasn't a PnR heavy player like CP3 so there is that. Its not like the outlet angles change all that much from mid range compared to the 3, its why the Clips win without a talent like Blake to a decent degree, because we basically go(edit:went :( ) into a SSOL offense with CP3 just crushing the league in assists. He was basically back to NOLA form in the minutes without Blake.

ewing
06-30-2017, 07:18 PM
Has he ever had two ball dominate guards that'll need to play at least 36mins a picee though?

The fact that he has never had two guys this good really isn't good argument for why it won't work. Both guys are more then capable of playing off ball and it's an offense where you get touches off ball


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da ThRONe
06-30-2017, 07:47 PM
The fact that he has never had two guys this good really isn't good argument for why it won't work. Both guys are more then capable of playing off ball and it's an offense where you get touches off ball


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I'm not advocating that it won't work. I'm saying it's a poor fit because you are taking what makes Paul special and what makes Harden special and you're asking both to do it less. IMO team fit and physicality will be key to beating the Warriors. This redundancy in skill on paper seems to hurt Houston long term when you had someone like Beverley super cheap, 3 and d guard. The Rockets as currently constructed will still have to win a three point shootout with the best 3point shooting team in league history. Good luck with that.

warfelg
06-30-2017, 07:58 PM
That's all Paul, he's one of the best mid-range shooters in NBA history. That move where he comes off the pick, takes it to the opposite elbow and takes that falling away jumper is his bread and butter. He takes 42% of his shots from those ranges in his career and it's gone up as he's gotten older/post knee injury. He hasn't taken at least 15% of his shots from the 0-3 foot range since 2011-12 and hasn't been at 20%+ since 2008-09. Last year, he took just 7% of his shots from that range and it's just 10% over the last 4 seasons.

This is going to be the ultimate test of the D'Antoni/Morey mindset on mid-range shots. Paul shot .497 from 10-16 and .498 from 16 < 3 last season, which is great on that volume, but in their analytic world that still isn't efficient enough vs chucking far more 3's. I can see him shooting more 3s but he already shot 38% of his shots from 3 last year, by far a career high when he had never been at 30% prior. Just hard to imagine him cutting out so much of his mid-range game when he's so deadly with it.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. I'm just wondering if lack of ATR and 3PT shots comes from spacing and Doc not loving the 3 ball.

Because at least % wise CP3 isn't bad at the three ball.

Basically in a nut shell:
I wouldn't be 100% shocked if CP3 is able to adjust quickly.

Also PGs, I feel like that 10-15 foot shot could also be a floater. Not saying it isn't midrange but it's not like a spot up jumper. Could be a layup if they wanted it and it's a really good shot to have in the bag.

FlashBolt
06-30-2017, 08:04 PM
Kyrie has no excuse not to play defense when LeBron is basically the PG. I'm disappointed from that aspect. On the other hand, he's getting paid $16-18 million per season and when he's ON, there is no OFF button to stopping him. His value is amazing right now.

ewing
06-30-2017, 08:09 PM
I'm not advocating that it won't work. I'm saying it's a poor fit because you are taking what makes Paul special and what makes Harden special and you're asking both to do it less. IMO team fit and physicality will be key to beating the Warriors. This redundancy in skill on paper seems to hurt Houston long term when you had someone like Beverley super cheap, 3 and d guard. The Rockets as currently constructed will still have to win a three point shootout with the best 3point shooting team in league history. Good luck with that.

The fact the Warriors are still better is another trash argument. They have 4 all NBA players and better role guys. That's about talent not fit. This makes Houston better. Both players are very good at catch and shoot and finishing. They get more catch shoot opportunities and will be able to fill lanes and take advantage of there finishing ability bc they are playing with another play maker. Splitting play making duties get both guys good looks they wouldn't get otherwise with less work. It's a good fit the Warriors are just a better team.


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nastynice
07-01-2017, 04:08 AM
Love and Bosh put up good stats on bad or average teams. Put them on an actual contender, they come back down to earth. But regardless, you just casually compared Bosh to Klay AND Green. Why do I even debate anything you say.

Haha, I wasn't saying he was better than both combined. Saying that he was in a diff tier than either

Love is prob more on par with Klay and green. Bosh was clearly a level above those three

Saddletramp
07-01-2017, 05:04 AM
Haha, I wasn't saying he was better than both combined. Saying that he was in a diff tier than either

Love is prob more on par with Klay and green. Bosh was clearly a level above those three

You were comparing the two teams. How can you compare the two teams by saying Lebron>KD, Curry=Wade, Bosh>Klay or Green and then not take Klay or Green into consideration when you're comparing the two teams?????


As for your second point up there, no. Just whatthe**** no. We just haven't seen Green in any other situation than GS while Bosh and Love were both studs on their own team (although with not much team success). Maybe Green leaves GS somehow and turns back into rookie Fat Scrub again or doesn't mesh as well with his new teammates (kinda like Bosh/Love). But don't compare Bosh and Love with Green. He does so much more for that team than either Bosh did on those Miami teams or Love does in Cle now. Because remember, you were comparing teams.

nastynice
07-01-2017, 07:06 AM
You were comparing the two teams. How can you compare the two teams by saying Lebron>KD, Curry=Wade, Bosh>Klay or Green and then not take Klay or Green into consideration when you're comparing the two teams?????


As for your second point up there, no. Just whatthe**** no. We just haven't seen Green in any other situation than GS while Bosh and Love were both studs on their own team (although with not much team success). Maybe Green leaves GS somehow and turns back into rookie Fat Scrub again or doesn't mesh as well with his new teammates (kinda like Bosh/Love). But don't compare Bosh and Love with Green. He does so much more for that team than either Bosh did on those Miami teams or Love does in Cle now. Because remember, you were comparing teams.

bro, I'm comparing the talent level. Green is sick, no doubt, but if Green or Klay is your best (most talented) player, you're probably not competing for a chip. I know Toronto sucked, but if Bosh was your best player, and your second best was like a couple slots behind him, they could legitimately compete for a chip (at that time, pre super team days).

My whole point is that team wise gs is better, because wade lebron and bosh didnt' complement each other the way golden state's stars do (and yes, we have a 4th star, I'm not trying to ignore that)

Aust
07-01-2017, 07:35 AM
I don't understand the fit, but Harden and Morey wanted this so I'm trusting them that this works out.

da ThRONe
07-01-2017, 12:29 PM
The fact the Warriors are still better is another trash argument. They have 4 all NBA players and better role guys. That's about talent not fit. This makes Houston better. Both players are very good at catch and shoot and finishing. They get more catch shoot opportunities and will be able to fill lanes and take advantage of there finishing ability bc they are playing with another play maker. Splitting play making duties get both guys good looks they wouldn't get otherwise with less work. It's a good fit the Warriors are just a better team.


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When I say fit I mean the top end talent must fit in a way that allows them to get maximum value with the structure of the team. Ofcourse it'll take top end talent to beat the Warriors. But you can't be like the Cavs were they're not getting max value out of Kevin Love because he doesn't fit with Kyrie Irving. And that's my point for even mentioning the Warriors because at this point all road to a title goes through Oakland. Paul left because he thought teaming with Harden gave him a better chance to compete. I don't agree with that.

LA_Raiders
07-01-2017, 01:09 PM
No, I think he fits alright. The problem will be harden and his no D mentality. I still can't believe the Cavs didn't pull a trade for him with KI. This would have been a win win for both teams.

Aust
07-01-2017, 04:16 PM
No, I think he fits alright. The problem will be harden and his no D mentality. I still can't believe the Cavs didn't pull a trade for him with KI. This would have been a win win for both teams.

Why would Houston want Irving over Harden?

ewing
07-01-2017, 04:25 PM
When I say fit I mean the top end talent must fit in a way that allows them to get maximum value with the structure of the team. Ofcourse it'll take top end talent to beat the Warriors. But you can't be like the Cavs were they're not getting max value out of Kevin Love because he doesn't fit with Kyrie Irving. And that's my point for even mentioning the Warriors because at this point all road to a title goes through Oakland. Paul left because he thought teaming with Harden gave him a better chance to compete. I don't agree with that.

again i disagree with you. First of all Love is limit by Brons need for a clear lane not KI. Secondly, Paul and Harden are asked to be the creator every possession b/c normally no one else on the team is near as good at it. Now you have 2 guys that can do that. Each guy gets a little more rest and each guy is better off the ball (spot up shooting/catching a swing pass and attacking) then most players in that spot. Yes you have possession where you aren't using Paul as your primary creator but on those possessions he is better at what you are asking him to do then most and you still have a great creator running your offense

mightybosstone
07-01-2017, 04:30 PM
No, I think he fits alright. The problem will be harden and his no D mentality. I still can't believe the Cavs didn't pull a trade for him with KI. This would have been a win win for both teams.
Are you suggesting the Rockets would have dealt Harden for Kyrie? You realize that's insane, right?

Why would Houston want Irving over Harden?
Hell no.

Saddletramp
07-01-2017, 06:51 PM
bro, I'm comparing the talent level. Green is sick, no doubt, but if Green or Klay is your best (most talented) player, you're probably not competing for a chip. I know Toronto sucked, but if Bosh was your best player, and your second best was like a couple slots behind him, they could legitimately compete for a chip (at that time, pre super team days).

My whole point is that team wise gs is better, because wade lebron and bosh didnt' complement each other the way golden state's stars do (and yes, we have a 4th star, I'm not trying to ignore that)

Fit or no fit, they have more top level talent. You totally glossed over that. And it was dumb.

sagemania
07-01-2017, 07:11 PM
No, I think he fits alright. The problem will be harden and his no D mentality. I still can't believe the Cavs didn't pull a trade for him with KI. This would have been a win win for both teams.

LOOL Rockets would only trade Harden for Lebron James.

nastynice
07-01-2017, 07:43 PM
Fit or no fit, they have more top level talent. You totally glossed over that. And it was dumb.

No, I made the point that while gs has 4 players, Miami top 2 get the edge over golden states top 2 (at the moment. Got that lil thing called prime years waiting around the corner :)) and miami's 3 is clearly ahead of golden states 3 and 4

If that lead to you glossing over any of that, then that's on you. I can't answer why you did that

Saddletramp
07-01-2017, 07:50 PM
No, I made the point that while gs has 4 players, Miami top 2 get the edge over golden states top 2 (at the moment. Got that lil thing called prime years waiting around the corner :)) and miami's 3 is clearly ahead of golden states 3 and 4

If that lead to you glossing over any of that, then that's on you. I can't answer why you did that

That's not how you compare teams. And I doubt you'll figure it out, as easy as it may be. When you say:



....I feel they were at least as talented as golden state, tbh I think more. Lebron was better than KD, Wade and curry pretty even, bosh clearly better than either Klay or dray.......

4>3
You can't compare teams one minute but



This is too stupid to continue.

nastynice
07-01-2017, 08:13 PM
That's not how you compare teams. And I doubt you'll figure it out, as easy as it may be. When you say:




4>3
You can't compare teams one minute but



This is too stupid to continue.

Yes, and that's part of me making my argument. That Bosh's talent level was clearly on another level compared to Klay and Green. Lebron clearly best player in the game for upward a decade, at least 7.

This is called making a statement, and then stating why that statement was stated to begin with. There's nothing hard to follow. It's just that ur under the impression that since in your head 4 is more than 3, and that's the end of the arguement, there's no other possible way to look at it. And so you start replying as so...

Saddletramp
07-01-2017, 08:34 PM
Yes, and that's part of me making my argument. That Bosh's talent level was clearly on another level compared to Klay and Green. Lebron clearly best player in the game for upward a decade, at least 7.

This is called making a statement, and then stating why that statement was stated to begin with. There's nothing hard to follow. It's just that ur under the impression that since in your head 4 is more than 3, and that's the end of the arguement, there's no other possible way to look at it. And so you start replying as so...

You're still wrong on Bosh being better than Green on their respective teams. But regardless, you compared two teams but slid GS's 3rd and 4th guys as equalling to Miami's 3rd guy. That's ****ing stupid. And there is no other way to look at this argument, Assuming all other players aren't currently on this all star type level (none were but GS still had FMVP Iguodala which was better than anyone Lebron/Wade/Bosh had at the time), then yeah, 4>3. Even if Bosh was better than Green on their teams, none of the Heat's big three were miles ahead of their GS counterpart (not even Lebron over KD). And then you added the bench guys but added all of the Heat guys like they were on the Heat during the same years. And you convientently left out Wade busting down a level.

Your posting has clearly fallen off a cliff the last year or so. Some people just don't adapt well to success (not that you had anything to do with their success).

D-Leethal
07-01-2017, 09:04 PM
again i disagree with you. First of all Love is limit by Brons need for a clear lane not KI. Secondly, Paul and Harden are asked to be the creator every possession b/c normally no one else on the team is near as good at it. Now you have 2 guys that can do that. Each guy gets a little more rest and each guy is better off the ball (spot up shooting/catching a swing pass and attacking) then most players in that spot. Yes you have possession where you aren't using Paul as your primary creator but on those possessions he is better at what you are asking him to do then most and you still have a great creator running your offense

I just don't see where this trade addressed any pain points for the Rockets. Harden was obviously doing just fine being an exclusive ball handler. I didn't see much to suggest he needed to get more reps off the ball for Houston to take another leap forward. It's definitely not going to hurt them, they will get better, but if they added a guy of CP3's caliber at forward or C they would have had the chance to really take a leap forward as a team, opposed to a guy to switch reps with Harden at PG.

nastynice
07-01-2017, 09:09 PM
You're still wrong on Bosh being better than Green on their respective teams. But regardless, you compared two teams but slid GS's 3rd and 4th guys as equalling to Miami's 3rd guy. That's ****ing stupid. And there is no other way to look at this argument, Assuming all other players aren't currently on this all star type level (none were but GS still had FMVP Iguodala which was better than anyone Lebron/Wade/Bosh had at the time), then yeah, 4>3. Even if Bosh was better than Green on their teams, none of the Heat's big three were miles ahead of their GS counterpart (not even Lebron over KD). And then you added the bench guys but added all of the Heat guys like they were on the Heat during the same years. And you convientently left out Wade busting down a level.

Your posting has clearly fallen off a cliff the last year or so. Some people just don't adapt well to success (not that you had anything to do with their success).

"On their respective teams" well no **** Sherlock, that's the entire premise of what I'm saying. Green and Klay are great players, all stars, but bosh could legit have been the centerpiece to a championship team. Green and Klay can't. People look at love and compare him with bosh, Bosh was on a COMPLETELY diff level than love.

That's the raw talent advantage I give Miami. Gs deeper, Miami more top. Yea, I get they broke down, but they had a few years, didn't get it done enough, had dominant runs but golden state looks like we bout to reach a diff level. Cuz we fit better. That's what I think. I don't think it's just the raw talent that has us poised to look better than Miami ever did. It's our equal, or arguably less, raw talent PLUS players fitting the system that does.

Does that make sense? Seems simple

My posts are fine, you're just bothered by any and everything golden state, but that's fine, that's what makes it fun :)

Saddletramp
07-01-2017, 10:14 PM
"On their respective teams" well no **** Sherlock, that's the entire premise of what I'm saying. Green and Klay are great players, all stars, but bosh could legit have been the centerpiece to a championship team. Green and Klay can't. People look at love and compare him with bosh, Bosh was on a COMPLETELY diff level than love.

So which is it? Are you comparing GS and the Heat with the players on their teams or are you comparing who those players are regardless of team? Or do you just have no idea that you're contradicting yourself? And why are you bringing in Love? So now you're comparing two different power forwards that played with Lebron on two separate teams? What the hell are you talking about?


That's the raw talent advantage I give Miami. Gs deeper, Miami more top.

Again, you're just flat out wrong. KD/Curry/Green/Klay is better than LBJ/Wade/Bosh. How is this debatable.


Yea, I get they broke down, but they had a few years, didn't get it done enough, had dominant runs but golden state looks like we bout to reach a diff level. Cuz we fit better. That's what I think. I don't think it's just the raw talent that has us poised to look better than Miami ever did. It's our equal, or arguably less, raw talent PLUS players fitting the system that does.

Does that make sense? Seems simple

My posts are fine, you're just bothered by any and everything golden state, but that's fine, that's what makes it fun :)

No, in just bothered by idiotic and clearly wrong statements. And then being told that I'm the one that's wrong. Alright, You've wasted enough of my time.

ewing
07-01-2017, 10:39 PM
I just don't see where this trade addressed any pain points for the Rockets. Harden was obviously doing just fine being an exclusive ball handler. I didn't see much to suggest he needed to get more reps off the ball for Houston to take another leap forward. It's definitely not going to hurt them, they will get better, but if they added a guy of CP3's caliber at forward or C they would have had the chance to really take a leap forward as a team, opposed to a guy to switch reps with Harden at PG.

Durrant and Leonard weren't on the market.

nastynice
07-02-2017, 07:07 AM
.

So which is it? Are you comparing GS and the Heat with the players on their teams or are you comparing who those players are regardless of team? Or do you just have no idea that you're contradicting yourself? And why are you bringing in Love? So now you're comparing two different power forwards that played with Lebron on two separate teams? What the hell are you talking about?



Again, you're just flat out wrong. KD/Curry/Green/Klay is better than LBJ/Wade/Bosh. How is this debatable.



No, in just bothered by idiotic and clearly wrong statements. And then being told that I'm the one that's wrong. Alright, You've wasted enough of my time.

Haha, bro I'm comparing both, I'm saying raw talent wise, meaning regardless of team, the Heat are right there with gs. But taking into account the reality that these players play on a team, this is where gs main advantage lies

I bring up Love cuz I'm saying Love is more on par with Klay and Green, none on Bosh's level. Cool ya jets, just think it thru

SteBO
07-02-2017, 07:22 AM
I'm legitimately confused. When harden was moved to point guard, "it wouldn't work."

Now that he's back to having another playmaker,its bad?

Narratives are so dumb sometimes. Are we beating the warriors as constructed? No? They're a juggernaut!

Are we closer now than b4? Of course? I'd rather keep trying to upgrade rather than just sit around. :shrug:
Not that confusing. People feel like both guys need the ball in their hands to be effective...it's the same reasoning I use when telling people that CP3/LeBron might not work as well people think, since LBJ is so frustratingly reluctant to commit to the post more.

That being said, CP3 with Harden I think will work just fine based on what I saw last year. Harden spread the wealth a lot more with the shooters he had, and to have a guy now that can take ball handling pressure off him will serve well. Harden is also a damn good 3pt shooter, so he could spot up more and be effective that way.

Chronz
07-02-2017, 11:46 AM
I'm thirsty. What's the debate. I'd rather have draymond that's for sure get at me

mightybosstone
07-02-2017, 12:26 PM
"On their respective teams" well no **** Sherlock, that's the entire premise of what I'm saying. Green and Klay are great players, all stars, but bosh could legit have been the centerpiece to a championship team. Green and Klay can't. People look at love and compare him with bosh, Bosh was on a COMPLETELY diff level than love.

That's the raw talent advantage I give Miami. Gs deeper, Miami more top. Yea, I get they broke down, but they had a few years, didn't get it done enough, had dominant runs but golden state looks like we bout to reach a diff level. Cuz we fit better. That's what I think. I don't think it's just the raw talent that has us poised to look better than Miami ever did. It's our equal, or arguably less, raw talent PLUS players fitting the system that does.

Does that make sense? Seems simple

My posts are fine, you're just bothered by any and everything golden state, but that's fine, that's what makes it fun :)
This Golden State team is infinitely more talented than those Miami Heat teams were. How is this even debatable? If we were talking peak Wade, this might be at last debatable—and even then the Warriors have a clear advantage. And Bosh was like a slightly better version of Kevin Love on these Cavs teams. Hell, those lost two years of that Heat trio, I would argue that they might not even have been as talented as this current Cavs squad. Wade started his decline in that third year and was a shell of himself in that postseason.

But if we just go down the line and compare talent player-for-player, the only position where Miami has a clear advantage is at the top with Lebron over Durant. But peak Curry is miles ahead of past-prime Wade. Bosh and Green are on par with each other, but I think most fans and analysts (myself included) would take Green for his superior defense and playmaking. And Miami had no fourth player remotely on the same level as Thompson. Then throw in Iguodala, who is on par with or greater than any Heat role player—including Shane Battier or Ray Allen.

I don't get why this even should be a debate. The Heat had four Hall of Famers on the roster, but one was just past his peak (Wade), another (Bosh) never really fulfilled his potential there and the fourth (Allen) was nothing more than a role player at that point. The Warriors also have four likely future Hall of Famers, but literally every one of them is playing at their peak right now. It would be like if those 80s Sixer teams with Moses, Dr. J and Barkley had all three playing at their peaks or if the late 90s Rockets squad with Hakeem, Drexler and Barkley had happened 10 years earlier. This Golden State team is unprecedented in terms of its talent and where that talent is at in their respective carers.

Saddletramp
07-02-2017, 03:26 PM
I don't know how many times a guy can say something dumb, get called out, and try to justify his dumb statements with more dumb statements. And maaaan, those were some dumb statements.

Jamiecballer
07-02-2017, 03:54 PM
I just don't see where this trade addressed any pain points for the Rockets. Harden was obviously doing just fine being an exclusive ball handler. I didn't see much to suggest he needed to get more reps off the ball for Houston to take another leap forward. It's definitely not going to hurt them, they will get better, but if they added a guy of CP3's caliber at forward or C they would have had the chance to really take a leap forward as a team, opposed to a guy to switch reps with Harden at PG.
Damn right. Totally in sync here

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mightybosstone
07-02-2017, 04:02 PM
I just don't see where this trade addressed any pain points for the Rockets. Harden was obviously doing just fine being an exclusive ball handler. I didn't see much to suggest he needed to get more reps off the ball for Houston to take another leap forward. It's definitely not going to hurt them, they will get better, but if they added a guy of CP3's caliber at forward or C they would have had the chance to really take a leap forward as a team, opposed to a guy to switch reps with Harden at PG.


Damn right. Totally in sync here

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You guys are missing a pretty key need here: a No. 2. The Rockets didn't have a second go-to scorer or playmaker last year, and it hurt in big moments when too much pressure was placed on Harden to perform. Yes, the Rockets had a deep team with a lot of weapons. That doesn't mean they didn't need a true No. 2 or an influx of talent at the top.

They do need to upgrade talent-wise in the forward spots, but there's still opportunities to do that in the future, whether it's this summer, midseason or next year. But they have two elite top 10 caliber guys on the same roster. That's a huge plus, regardless of what positions they play.

Jamiecballer
07-02-2017, 04:05 PM
You guys are missing a pretty key need here: a No. 2. The Rockets didn't have a second go-to scorer or playmaker last year, and it hurt in big moments when too much pressure was placed on Harden to perform. Yes, the Rockets had a deep team with a lot of weapons. That doesn't mean they didn't need a true No. 2 or an influx of talent at the top.

They do need to upgrade talent-wise in the forward spots, but there's still opportunities to do that in the future, whether it's this summer, midseason or next year. But they have two elite top 10 caliber guys on the same roster. That's a huge plus, regardless of what positions they play.
Oh don't get me wrong. I think we both acknowledged that the Rockets will improve, just not as much as we thought they could if it happened within the context of the current setup

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