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View Full Version : All-Time Auction Playoffs (Londinium Sharps vs. Team RR)



valade16
06-22-2017, 03:01 PM
Every year Posters from PSD come together and do a secret auction of all players throughout NBA history attempting to make the best team and win the PSD All-Time Auction Championship! The teams have been seeded and are now in the playoffs. Please look over the teams and vote based on which team you think would win in a 7 game playoff series.

Londinium Sharps has the higher seed and will have home court advantage in the series.

Londinium Sharps:

Kyrie Irving (37), John Starks (11)
John Starks (24), Drazen Petrovic (24)
Kevin Durant (36), Detlef Schrempf (12)
Ron Artest (35), Moses Malone (10), Kevin Durant (3)
Moses Malone (30), Mark Eaton (18)

Reserves: Mark Jackson, Ed Macauley

vs.

Team RR:


PG: Mike Conley [25 min.] | Micheal Ray Richardson [20 min.] | Hersey Hawkins [3 min.]
SG: Michael Jordan [38 min.] | Hersey Hawkins [7 min.] | Raja Bell [3 min.]
SF: Kawhi Leonard [38 min.] | Toni Kukoc [8 min.] | Michael Jordan [2 min.]
PF: Dan Roundfield [ 28 min.] | Wes Unseld [12 min.] | Toni Kukoc [8 min.]
C: Wes Unseld [24 min.] | Tyson Chandler [24 min.]

Redrum187
06-22-2017, 03:36 PM
Mini-Write Up (In depth later)

Team RR is incredibly quick, strong, and lengthy. They are also dynamic offensively and defensively, being able to excel in the fast break/transition or in the halfcourt. They are elite passers, defenders (with the ability to switch any time they want), scorers, and rebounders. Perhaps the most important thing to mention is that RR has the perfect complementary of TEAM-FIRST players around Jordan. Kawhi is the quiet leader of the Spurs with ice running through his veins, Roundfield was a team-first player, willing to make the pass (about 3 ast/game) and do the blue collar dirty work, Conley is the floor general for the Grizzlies and the mental leader, and Wes Unseld was the Washington BUllet's engine and heart. Michael Jordan, Kawhi Leonard, and Wes Unseld received FMVP honors in different ways.

On Defense: Conley will be guard Irving, Jordan will start out resting on Starks to focus his energy more on offense but then give Kawhi/Conley a break by guarding Durant/Irving at stretches. Kawhi will start out on Durant (rest on Starks when MJ takes over). Dan Roundfield is an elite two-way player who would guard the better Forward. He was 5x All NBA Defense and would guard perimeter players as well as post players... granted, he was an even better post defender. Guarding Artest, who is probably a 4th option would be a cakewalk for him, allowing him to use his energy for the moments he had to cover or switch on Moses. Unseld is a perfect player to guard Moses. Moses would do bully ball to get his points... that isn't happening with Unseld who was "etched out of stone"... Unseld was an elite post defender. To combat Londinium's #1 scorer in Moses, RR has 3 elite defenders to throw at him, giving him different looks and making life more difficult for him in Wes Unseld, Dan Roundfield (5x All D), and Tyson Chandler (DPOY).

As mentioned previously, Kawhi (the best Durant defender) and MJ will take shifts guarding Londinium's #2 scorer in Durant. I'm sure Durant will still put some points up, assuming Moses actually passes the ball (and doesn't turn it over at his typical high turnover rate) to him... but you couldn't really ask for a better defenders against Durant.... or even against Irving in Conley (All NBA Defense). Londinium probably had the mindset of creating a fast-paced team that will get out and run... but they run into a matchup nightmare with RR's offense and defense versatility. There is not a single matchup they could exploit as all 5 players on RR's team are elite defenders.

Question: What I want to know is if Ron Artest is guarding MJ, which one of Kyrie Irving or John Starks guards Dan Roundfield who put up 19/11 against really good PFs? Or does Durant guard Roundfield and Starks/Irving guards Kawhi? Either way, that will be the prime mismatch team RR will want to take advantage of.

Greet
06-22-2017, 03:57 PM
Boy, good luck scoring on the perimeter with Conley, MJ, and Leonard. Also IIRC but I don't think Wes was a real big rim protector.

Redrum187
06-22-2017, 05:12 PM
Boy, good luck scoring on the perimeter with Conley, MJ, and Leonard. Also IIRC but I don't think Wes was a real big rim protector.

Wes Unseld didn't get a ton of blocks, but he was nevertheless a force defensively. Dan Roundfield was probably a better rim protector/shot blocker, but Unseld had Dennis Rodman impact (slightly less defensively but way more offense).

GREATNESS ONE
06-22-2017, 10:13 PM
You need a legit Big Man to beat the awesome team of MJ/KL.


I look forward to both write-ups.

Sadds The Gr8
06-23-2017, 12:11 AM
Boy, good luck scoring on the perimeter with Conley, MJ, and Leonard. Also IIRC but I don't think Wes was a real big rim protector.

Conley aint stopping Irving FWIW

Greet
06-23-2017, 12:34 AM
Conley aint stopping Irving FWIW

During his best 3-year defensive stretch, he was an elite defender.

Sadds The Gr8
06-23-2017, 02:15 AM
During his best 3-year defensive stretch, he was an elite defender.

still not stopping Kyrie tho. Elite might be a stretch...

Redrum187
06-23-2017, 02:23 AM
still not stopping Kyrie tho. Elite might be a stretch...

I mean... of all the current PG's in a 3 year peak, Conley is arguably the greatest defensive PG (he and CP3 are 1a/1b). If that isn't elite, then you have ridiculously high standards for "elite" defensive PGs.

Sadds The Gr8
06-23-2017, 03:10 AM
I mean... of all the current PG's in a 3 year peak, Conley is arguably the greatest defensive PG (he and CP3 are 1a/1b). If that isn't elite, then you have ridiculously high standards for "elite" defensive PGs.

CP3 is easily better. Conley is above average, but he was never on that level...

KnicksorBust
06-23-2017, 12:33 PM
Boy, good luck scoring on the perimeter with Conley, MJ, and Leonard. Also IIRC but I don't think Wes was a real big rim protector.

Conley aint stopping Irving FWIW

Uhhh how is Starks gonna do with MJ? Why is he even a starter in this? That is pretty bad. GOAT vs the worsr starter in the game. Whoops. Give me RR. Cant vote on my phone

Sadds The Gr8
06-23-2017, 12:53 PM
Uhhh how is Starks gonna do with MJ? Why is he even a starter in this? That is pretty bad. GOAT vs the worsr starter in the game. Whoops. Give me RR. Cant vote on my phone

I agree. was just responding to Greet. Conley isn't a CP3/Payton/Kidd type of defender like him and RR are claiming

KnicksorBust
06-23-2017, 12:59 PM
Uhhh how is Starks gonna do with MJ? Why is he even a starter in this? That is pretty bad. GOAT vs the worsr starter in the game. Whoops. Give me RR. Cant vote on my phone

I agree. was just responding to Greet. Conley isn't a CP3/Payton/Kidd type of defender like him and RR are claiming

Gotcha.

Ebbs
06-23-2017, 01:12 PM
Ok a few things.

God this site loves Jordan too much. Holy ****. This is one of the worst Jordan teams ever assembled how in the hell.... NVM..

First of all, Starks was a tenacious defender. He was known for being a loose cannon and while no one is shutting MJ down, Starks is someone that at least makes him work. That's all you can do, put someone with an ego known for physical defense and make him work. Jordan shot 45% against Starks in the playoffs, shot 49% over his career. So Starks at least made things a tad more difficult. ALSO HOLY ****. I have Ron Artest, Artest was a pretty good defender and will also see time on MJ.

Also, if you want to talk questionable starters.. Mike Conley is the worst starter in this game by a lot. WTF, Kyrie would cook the **** out of him.

I love Kawhi Leonard but this game is about three year peaks he's not carrying a second option load in this game. How in the **** is this team keeping up with a Kyrie-Durant-Malone offense? HOW? I have three of the four best scorers in this game. My sixth man (Drazen Petrovic) has the same three year numbers offensively that Leonard has...

Durant has averaged 28 PPG on 50% shooting in the playoffs vs. Leonard the last two years in the playoffs. Are you kidding me?

Durant spends time on roundfield. Artest/Starks take turns making MJ's life hell.

And yea Wes Unseld who gives up like five inches tries to stop Moses Malone who no one is even talking about.

I won't lie, I'm so disappointed in this site. My god.

Sadds The Gr8
06-23-2017, 01:18 PM
Ok a few things.

God this site loves Jordan too much. Holy ****. This is one of the worst Jordan teams ever assembled how in the hell.... NVM..

First of all, Starks was a tenacious defender. He was known for being a loose cannon and while no one is shutting MJ down, Starks is someone that at least makes him work. That's all you can do, put someone with an ego known for physical defense and make him work. Jordan shot 45% against Starks in the playoffs, shot 49% over his career. So Starks at least made things a tad more difficult. ALSO HOLY ****. I have Ron Artest, Artest was a pretty good defender and will also see time on MJ.

Also, if you want to talk questionable starters.. Mike Conley is the worst starter in this game by a lot. WTF, Kyrie would cook the **** out of him.

I love Kawhi Leonard but this game is about three year peaks he's not carrying a second option load in this game. How in the **** is this team keeping up with a Kyrie-Durant-Malone offense? HOW? I have three of the four best scorers in this game. My sixth man (Drazen Petrovic) has the same three year numbers offensively that Leonard has...

Durant has averaged 28 PPG on 50% shooting in the playoffs vs. Leonard the last two years in the playoffs. Are you kidding me?

Durant spends time on roundfield. Artest/Starks take turns making MJ's life hell.

And yea Wes Unseld who gives up like five inches tries to stop Moses Malone who no one is even talking about.

I won't lie, I'm so disappointed in this site. My god.

MJ, Shaq, Hakeem are untouchable on PSD

Ebbs
06-23-2017, 01:24 PM
I don't know why I thought times had changed. I thought RR overpaid for Jordan but wow, I can't believe the results here.

This makes me more hype for the no MVP draft though.

Greet
06-23-2017, 02:40 PM
Do people really think Kyrie would cook Conley (3-year prime)? Kyrie is slowly (read: rapidly) becoming one of the most overrated players in the league.

Guy has awful basketball IQ, destroys the flow of offense and is a glorified street baller.

valade16
06-23-2017, 03:26 PM
Do people really think Kyrie would cook Conley (3-year prime)? Kyrie is slowly (read: rapidly) becoming one of the most overrated players in the league.

Guy has awful basketball IQ, destroys the flow of offense and is a glorified street baller.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Mike+Conley&player_id1_select=Mike+Conley&player_id1=conlemi01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&idx=players

He seems to have done fairly well vs Conley irl. Granted it's a small sample size.

Greet
06-23-2017, 04:00 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Mike+Conley&player_id1_select=Mike+Conley&player_id1=conlemi01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&idx=players

He seems to have done fairly well vs Conley irl. Granted it's a small sample size.

Link isn't working at the moment, but small sample size (like you said).. but that's irrelevant for this game. Conley during a stretch in his career was at the elite level (top 1-3) defenders of the position. Factored into the fact that I think Kyrie is overrated, I think I would safely say that Conleys 3-year peak (as an overall player, including ability to run an offense) is better than Kyrie's.

jon32
06-23-2017, 04:42 PM
oof......my gut said RR but I went ebbs. Moses would horrify RRs frontcourt. I dont mind Starks on MJ but I feel like Moses would be just as much as a problem in this matchup as Jordan is. I think in this matchup Durant should see alot more time at PF tho.

Redrum187
06-23-2017, 04:54 PM
Ok a few things.

God this site loves Jordan too much. Holy ****. This is one of the worst Jordan teams ever assembled how in the hell.... NVM..

First of all, Starks was a tenacious defender. He was known for being a loose cannon and while no one is shutting MJ down, Starks is someone that at least makes him work. That's all you can do, put someone with an ego known for physical defense and make him work. Jordan shot 45% against Starks in the playoffs, shot 49% over his career. So Starks at least made things a tad more difficult. ALSO HOLY ****. I have Ron Artest, Artest was a pretty good defender and will also see time on MJ.

Also, if you want to talk questionable starters.. Mike Conley is the worst starter in this game by a lot. WTF, Kyrie would cook the **** out of him.

I love Kawhi Leonard but this game is about three year peaks he's not carrying a second option load in this game. How in the **** is this team keeping up with a Kyrie-Durant-Malone offense? HOW? I have three of the four best scorers in this game. My sixth man (Drazen Petrovic) has the same three year numbers offensively that Leonard has...

Durant has averaged 28 PPG on 50% shooting in the playoffs vs. Leonard the last two years in the playoffs. Are you kidding me?

Durant spends time on roundfield. Artest/Starks take turns making MJ's life hell.

And yea Wes Unseld who gives up like five inches tries to stop Moses Malone who no one is even talking about.

I won't lie, I'm so disappointed in this site. My god.

1.) So Kyrie will "cook" Conley but Starks will hold his own against Jordan. GOtcha. lol
2.) Kawhi didn't guard Durant in the playoffs... he guarded Westbrook. Green guarded Durant. Nice try...
3.) No one talks about Wes Unseld giving up inches because he had Dennis Rodman level impact... They were use to guarding players much taller but still made a name for themselves due to their motor and excellent defense.
4.) You don't love Kawhi Leonard if you think he couldn't be a second option in this. The dude has not only been an elite defender his entire career (2x DPOY) but has become a phenomenal offensive (and efficient) force. Compare his regular season numbers to his playoff numbers... Kawhi turns it up come postseason and shoots a higher 3 point percentage than even Stephen Curry.

Redrum187
06-23-2017, 05:06 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Mike+Conley&player_id1_select=Mike+Conley&player_id1=conlemi01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id2=irvinky01&idx=players

He seems to have done fairly well vs Conley irl. Granted it's a small sample size.

It's 5 games, Conley played 6.6 fewer minutes, those numbers don't suggest he "cooked" Conley especially seeing as Conley (in fewer than 30 minutes) did well against Irving too and shot 50+% FG, 40+% 3pt%, 90+% and put up 14+ ppg, 6+ assists and fewer than 2 turnovers.

It's sort of like your argument that if Lillard played with LeBron he would be putting up Kyrie-type numbers. Conley doesn't need to be a 1st or 2nd scorer on this team... he just needs to do what he does best, play defense, space the floor, control the offer when MJ is out. They are about equal talent, but they serve different functions.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2017, 05:26 PM
Ok a few things.

God this site loves Jordan too much. Holy ****. This is one of the worst Jordan teams ever assembled how in the hell.... NVM..

First of all, Starks was a tenacious defender. He was known for being a loose cannon and while no one is shutting MJ down, Starks is someone that at least makes him work. That's all you can do, put someone with an ego known for physical defense and make him work. Jordan shot 45% against Starks in the playoffs, shot 49% over his career. So Starks at least made things a tad more difficult. ALSO HOLY ****. I have Ron Artest, Artest was a pretty good defender and will also see time on MJ.

Also, if you want to talk questionable starters.. Mike Conley is the worst starter in this game by a lot. WTF, Kyrie would cook the **** out of him.

I love Kawhi Leonard but this game is about three year peaks he's not carrying a second option load in this game. How in the **** is this team keeping up with a Kyrie-Durant-Malone offense? HOW? I have three of the four best scorers in this game. My sixth man (Drazen Petrovic) has the same three year numbers offensively that Leonard has...

Durant has averaged 28 PPG on 50% shooting in the playoffs vs. Leonard the last two years in the playoffs. Are you kidding me?

Durant spends time on roundfield. Artest/Starks take turns making MJ's life hell.

And yea Wes Unseld who gives up like five inches tries to stop Moses Malone who no one is even talking about.

I won't lie, I'm so disappointed in this site. My god.

You talk about Kyrie Irving like he is ****ing unguardable. Just stop. I dont know why the hell you are starting Artest at PF either. That is dumb as hell. You should have just played him on the wing knowing you would need him for MJ and drafted at real PF. Even a cheap guy like Lucas or Horford would be 10x better for you than playing Starks at SG and playing Artest out of position. Then you win this matchup.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2017, 05:30 PM
Ok a few things.

God this site loves Jordan too much. Holy ****. This is one of the worst Jordan teams ever assembled how in the hell.... NVM..

First of all, Starks was a tenacious defender. He was known for being a loose cannon and while no one is shutting MJ down, Starks is someone that at least makes him work. That's all you can do, put someone with an ego known for physical defense and make him work. Jordan shot 45% against Starks in the playoffs, shot 49% over his career. So Starks at least made things a tad more difficult. ALSO HOLY ****. I have Ron Artest, Artest was a pretty good defender and will also see time on MJ.

Also, if you want to talk questionable starters.. Mike Conley is the worst starter in this game by a lot. WTF, Kyrie would cook the **** out of him.

I love Kawhi Leonard but this game is about three year peaks he's not carrying a second option load in this game. How in the **** is this team keeping up with a Kyrie-Durant-Malone offense? HOW? I have three of the four best scorers in this game. My sixth man (Drazen Petrovic) has the same three year numbers offensively that Leonard has...

Durant has averaged 28 PPG on 50% shooting in the playoffs vs. Leonard the last two years in the playoffs. Are you kidding me?

Durant spends time on roundfield. Artest/Starks take turns making MJ's life hell.

And yea Wes Unseld who gives up like five inches tries to stop Moses Malone who no one is even talking about.

I won't lie, I'm so disappointed in this site. My god.

1.) So Kyrie will "cook" Conley but Starks will hold his own against Jordan. GOtcha. lol
2.) Kawhi didn't guard Durant in the playoffs... he guarded Westbrook. Green guarded Durant. Nice try...
3.) No one talks about Wes Unseld giving up inches because he had Dennis Rodman level impact... They were use to guarding players much taller but still made a name for themselves due to their motor and excellent defense.
4.) You don't love Kawhi Leonard if you think he couldn't be a second option in this. The dude has not only been an elite defender his entire career (2x DPOY) but has become a phenomenal offensive (and efficient) force. Compare his regular season numbers to his playoff numbers... Kawhi turns it up come postseason and shoots a higher 3 point percentage than even Stephen Curry.

Moses game isn't finesse it is power and size and Unseld has power and size. Moses would outplay him no doubt but Unselds outlet passing would be a thing of beauty for MJ and Kawhi in transition and Kyrie and Starks being the first 2 back on defense is laughable.

Ebbs
06-23-2017, 06:00 PM
You talk about Kyrie Irving like he is ****ing unguardable. Just stop. I dont know why the hell you are starting Artest at PF either. That is dumb as hell. You should have just played him on the wing knowing you would need him for MJ and drafted at real PF. Even a cheap guy like Lucas or Horford would be 10x better for you than playing Starks at SG and playing Artest out of position. Then you win this matchup.

LOL RR talked about Leonard playing bigge in the playoffs which is only half true over this three year period, but Kyrie is losing me points? LORD.

KoB, with 0 respect. You're out of your mind. Artest is an issue at PF. Horford? Are you kidding me, Artest, Starks, Durant let's me switch everybody 2-4. The fact that you think a guy lining up at PF means he spends all his time guarding the opposing PF is sad for you.

I expect most PSD members to be closed minded and brain washed but for someone who prides themselves on voting in these you sure do a poor job.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2017, 06:32 PM
You talk about Kyrie Irving like he is ****ing unguardable. Just stop. I dont know why the hell you are starting Artest at PF either. That is dumb as hell. You should have just played him on the wing knowing you would need him for MJ and drafted at real PF. Even a cheap guy like Lucas or Horford would be 10x better for you than playing Starks at SG and playing Artest out of position. Then you win this matchup.

LOL RR talked about Leonard playing bigge in the playoffs which is only half true over this three year period, but Kyrie is losing me points? LORD.

KoB, with 0 respect. You're out of your mind. Artest is an issue at PF. Horford? Are you kidding me, Artest, Starks, Durant let's me switch everybody 2-4. The fact that you think a guy lining up at PF means he spends all his time guarding the opposing PF is sad for you.

I expect most PSD members to be closed minded and brain washed but for someone who prides themselves on voting in these you sure do a poor job.

So salty. You did a poor job in this game. No need to attack me. Starks blows and you have him lined up against MJ. The GOAT against someone who has no business starting in these games. If you have some brilliant switching strategy make a writeup and post it when the matchups go up. Dont whine afterward that people didnt read your mind that your PF isn't guarding the other PF.

Shammyguy3
06-23-2017, 06:39 PM
I understand Ebbs frustration. I like his team. I like this MJ team in this matchup more

GREATNESS ONE
06-23-2017, 06:40 PM
I agree to disagree with the mass around here Ebbs.

I like both of these teams and I'll review before my vote tomorrow morning.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2017, 08:06 PM
I understand Ebbs frustration. I like his team. I like this MJ team in this matchup more

He doesn't like the vote so he calls all of psd idiots and says he is disappointed in the site. Then he calls me out of my mind even tho a week or two ago he was posting on my wall to get feedback about his team. Come on. There is frustration and there is just whining bc you are losing. He knows better than to have John Starks at SG in an all-time. Then he tried to pull a old catfish move (gallinari anyone? ) and overhype up a player (Kyrie) hoping people would bite.

valade16
06-23-2017, 09:33 PM
I understand Ebbs frustration. I like his team. I like this MJ team in this matchup more

I get it too. I mean it's MJ/Kawhi and guys literally nobody else would start. But the power of MJ/Kawhi is very strong it appears.

Redrum187
06-23-2017, 09:55 PM
I get it too. I mean it's MJ/Kawhi and guys literally nobody else would start. But the power of MJ/Kawhi is very strong it appears.

Meh... there's a difference between "literally nobody else would start" versus "nobody should start." We all (myself included) undervalue older players, but as long as I have older players who are underrated, I'm going to do my best to point out how in spite of the people who wouldn't start them, they are better than a lot of actual starters people DO use (that are more modern).

As for Dan Roundfield, the fact most people aren't aware of the fact he was a 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 ast/2 blks and 5x All Defense PF doesn't mean nobody SHOULD start him. He's absolutely capable of starting...

Aside from being an MVP and FMVP player, Unseld does everything that MJ/Kawhi can't do... He is Jordan's Rodman who may not be as good defensively but has more offensive upside to complement the team which will impact the team to a greater degree than someone like Kevin Love or Sikma, who people have started in this game. If people wouldn't start Unseld (which I know they have in the past so it's silly to say 'nobody') who put up 14+ ppg/16+ rpg/4 apg and played great defense, then they must have a top 10-15 C.

I'll make the arguments and point out reality, if someone wants to dispute it by all means. That's the point of the game though.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2017, 10:04 PM
I understand Ebbs frustration. I like his team. I like this MJ team in this matchup more

I get it too. I mean it's MJ/Kawhi and guys literally nobody else would start. But the power of MJ/Kawhi is very strong it appears.

Or is it just the matchup? He can't win the whole thing with that team but he should win here.

valade16
06-23-2017, 10:18 PM
Or is it just the matchup? He can't win the whole thing with that team but he should win here.

You underestimate MJ's power :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-23-2017, 11:28 PM
You underestimate MJ's power :laugh2:

And the rest of the team! :P

Shammyguy3
06-24-2017, 12:57 AM
Or is it just the matchup? He can't win the whole thing with that team but he should win here.

Agree with this completely. I had Ebbs as a top five team, but matchups (Especially for this years game) will dictate every winner

PatsSoxKnicks
06-24-2017, 03:41 AM
I get it too. I mean it's MJ/Kawhi and guys literally nobody else would start. But the power of MJ/Kawhi is very strong it appears.

I agree with this. And I 100% get Ebbs frustration, especially with regards to the Artest starting at PF. That's a dumb criticism, especially in this matchup when it's Roundfield...Even if it wasn't this matchup, I agree with his point that PSD has this weird fascination with having traditional positions. I wanted to start KG at Center but was told there's no way that'd fly. Ultimately, we didn't cause we couldn't find a PF worth starting next to him.

That said, Ebbs, I do think you're overrating Kyrie and underrating Conley (he's not the worst starter in this game, tho RR may have it in Roundfield). Tho honestly, I think both PGs are kinda weak starters.

FOXHOUND
06-24-2017, 06:56 AM
I had these teams one after the other in my rankings, so for me this is all about matchups.

My issue with Ron Artest at PF is that he barely played any PF throughout his entire career. Yes, he's strong as a bull but there really isn't reference for him thriving at the position against the league he played in, let alone an all-time game. Artest was a great defender but he was never even that strong a rebounder at SF. Some spot minutes at PF, okay I can buy that depending on who the opposing PF is, but all of his minutes? I think you're just greatly diminishing Artest's impact as a player.

Moses and Durant are great rebounders but you're giving up so much at PF, SG and PG that you really lose their advantages. Conley isn't going to take advantage of Kyrie on the boards like we just saw Curry do in the Finals, but Michael Ray Richardson will. Jordan and Roundfeld vs Starks and Artest is a huge advantage there. Kawhi and Unseld can hold their own on the boards vs Durant and Moses. Being that Ebbs is splitting SG minutes between Starks and Petrovic on top of it against Michael Jordan, of all people? Ebbs' team is getting murdered on the boards, in this matchup.

Then there is Kyrie. I love me some Kyrie and I don't even hate the idea of him starting in this with the right team. I don't think this is the right team for him at all. We have seen him put up some incredible Finals performances the last two years. Legitimately some of the best ever, from a scoring standpoint. The problem is he was doing it in a 1B type role with LeBron where he was allowed to dominate the ball a ton and working in their spread ISO offense.

On a team like this, you want the offense to run through Durant and Moses and if Kyrie isn't doing his thing scoring then the rest of his game is just far too weak. I think Mike Conley is a far better player in this scenario because he actually can thrive as a 3 and D PG who runs the offense and offers some scoring support. He has already thrived as a guy putting up 14-17 PPG and 6 AST in real life, and his intangibles are excellent.

I think those matchups and fit issues, combined with RR having Kawhi and Jordan to switch off on Durant without much penalty with Starks and Petrovic at SG, gives the edge to RR.

Sadds The Gr8
06-24-2017, 10:46 AM
I agree with this. And I 100% get Ebbs frustration, especially with regards to the Artest starting at PF. That's a dumb criticism, especially in this matchup when it's Roundfield...Even if it wasn't this matchup, I agree with his point that PSD has this weird fascination with having traditional positions. I wanted to start KG at Center but was told there's no way that'd fly. Ultimately, we didn't cause we couldn't find a PF worth starting next to him.

That said, Ebbs, I do think you're overrating Kyrie and underrating Conley (he's not the worst starter in this game, tho RR may have it in Roundfield). Tho honestly, I think both PGs are kinda weak starters.

I agree that at it's face, criticizing Artest at PF is ridiculous, but was that strategy necessary here? I see what Ebbs was trying to do in playing modern-day ball but Artest at PF to switch doesn't maximize his value when facing 2 offensive threats that are primarily ISO/post-up guys. I assume RR won't PnR that much with Conley since he has 2 better offensive threats...he'd mainly be a 3/D guy.

I agree with KOB that Artest starting at the wing makes more sense. I woulda gone Detlef at PF, and Artest at SG, but I still don't think it matters much because voters still would see the Kawhi/MJ wing duo and start jerking off to it, so I disagree with KOB there. Ebbs was screwed either way

Shammyguy3
06-24-2017, 10:59 AM
I agree that at it's face, criticizing Artest at PF is ridiculous, but was that strategy necessary here? I see what Ebbs was trying to do in playing modern-day ball but Artest at PF to switch doesn't maximize his value when facing 2 offensive threats that are primarily ISO/post-up guys. I assume RR won't PnR that much with Conley since he has 2 better offensive threats...he'd mainly be a 3/D guy.

I agree with KOB that Artest starting at the wing makes more sense. I woulda gone Detlef at PF, and Artest at SG, but I still don't think it matters much because voters still would see the Kawhi/MJ wing duo and start jerking off to it, so I disagree with KOB there. Ebbs was screwed either waywhich team do you think wins?

Sadds The Gr8
06-24-2017, 11:23 AM
which team do you think wins?

to me it's really 50/50. teams are evenly matched but forced to pick I lean slightly RR because Ebbs isn't using Artest to guard MJ. If he started Artest at 2 and Detlef at 4 I'd lean slightly to Ebbs. I think it's better offensively and defensively for this series

Dunkapolooza
06-24-2017, 12:47 PM
Yeah you can say whatever you want about starks. He's getting torched by mj. And I'm not the kind of guy who thinks mj beats all. But this is the worst match up outside of Sam Jones lol. Unseld is a great match up for moses. Mj beats up starks easier then moses beats up wes.

Artest at pf is a waste of value. He needs to guard Jordan or durant. And whats the point of putting a shooter around moses who doesnt pass? Lol. You need a shot blocker rebounder and clean up guy with moses like bobby jones. But if detlef comes in its all ball dominate players.

Conley is a good defender. He isn't intimidating though. Kyrie vs conley isn't going to do better then mj vs starks. Best player has the best match up. Not good.

Dunkapolooza
06-24-2017, 12:53 PM
Roundfield becomes a dominate player in this match up because of artest. He's not erased like he should be. Which would have happened if there was one real pf on the roster. Instead roundfield owns this series with rebounding. Neither Dan or rons scoring will much of a factor. So what does artest even bring to the table if he isn't matched up on an important scorer and moses isnt going to pass out of his wrestling match with unseld?

KnicksorBust
06-24-2017, 02:08 PM
I agree that at it's face, criticizing Artest at PF is ridiculous, but was that strategy necessary here? I see what Ebbs was trying to do in playing modern-day ball but Artest at PF to switch doesn't maximize his value when facing 2 offensive threats that are primarily ISO/post-up guys. I assume RR won't PnR that much with Conley since he has 2 better offensive threats...he'd mainly be a 3/D guy.

I agree with KOB that Artest starting at the wing makes more sense. I woulda gone Detlef at PF, and Artest at SG, but I still don't think it matters much because voters still would see the Kawhi/MJ wing duo and start jerking off to it, so I disagree with KOB there. Ebbs was screwed either way

I think he just dropped the ball. He let RR's good write-up sit there for 24 hours uncontested. Momentum is huge. I've seen people come back. It's not impossible. The question is how far the MJ team goes. I think they are very vulnerable and will definitely be eliminated in the next 2 rounds. They won't see the final.

Redrum187
06-24-2017, 03:47 PM
PSK and others have tried taking a dump on Dan Roundfield. I ask, how is a 3 year prime of 19 ppg/11 rbg/3 apg/2 bpg with 5x All Defense NOT starter worthy? Is it because you aren't familiar with him or is it because those stats suck?

KnicksorBust
06-24-2017, 04:45 PM
PSK and others have tried taking a dump on Dan Roundfield. I ask, how is a 3 year prime of 19 ppg/11 rbg/3 apg/2 bpg with 5x All Defense NOT starter worthy? Is it because you aren't familiar with him or is it because those stats suck?

It is because we aren't familiar with him obviously. 90s are the golden era of these games bc we grew up idolizing those players and modern players we all have seen. Pre 90s you have to be a HoF player to get any credit. Even top 50 players like Oscar and West probably don't get enough credit bc when they retired they were top 10 players of all-time. But then you have to wonder how easily the skills translate 40-50-60 years later. Roundfield had a great 3 year peak though. Apparently great defensively. I am not gonna pretend I saw him play. In a bizarre way all the bs back and forth might get people to accept him better moving forward. :)

Redrum187
06-24-2017, 05:02 PM
It is because we aren't familiar with him obviously. 90s are the golden era of these games bc we grew up idolizing those players and modern players we all have seen. Pre 90s you have to be a HoF player to get any credit. Even top 50 players like Oscar and West probably don't get enough credit bc when they retired they were top 10 players of all-time. But then you have to wonder how easily the skills translate 40-50-60 years later. Roundfield had a great 3 year peak though. Apparently great defensively. I am not gonna pretend I saw him play. In a bizarre way all the bs back and forth might get people to accept him better moving forward. :)

You're absolutely right, KoB. I appreciate your objectivity and honesty answering the question too.

That's my goal anyways. I am trying not to sound hyperbolic when talking about Dan Roundfield but one of the many reasons I love doing ATRD is because I get to learn about new players when I research players to draft/buy.

I think wing players would have more of a transition to modern day ball than post players. However, Roundfield played in the late 70's all the way through the mid-to-late 80's. Furthermore, his game would transition perfectly to today's game because he was strong and quick enough to guard SF/PF/C (depending on the center). But because they don't bother to read his numbers I post or look them up for themselves, he is the equivalent of the 1800's Joe Fulks.

I just see people in chatzy say things like "Yeah older guys are underrated, it shouldn't be this way...." then come in here with "Dan Roundfield might be the worst starter." *****, Roundfield is better than Charles Oakley... offensively it's not even close and defensively more sites list Roundfield as better there too. lol

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/135029-best-defensive-forwards-of-all-time


Best Defensive Forwards in NBA History
The dolfsterMarch 6, 2009

Best Defensive Forwards of All Time

1. Bobby Jones

2. Kevin McHale

3. Dennis Rodman

4. Dan Roundfield

5. Tim Duncan

6. John Havlicek

7. Dave DeBusschere

8. Scottie Pippen

9. Charles Oakley

10. Paul Pressey


You don't have to agree with the list but he is at least in consideration of one of the greatest defensive Forwards of all time... just don't try to take a dump on Dan Roundfield when in reality you're just ignorant of who he is.

valade16
06-24-2017, 06:07 PM
It is because we aren't familiar with him obviously. 90s are the golden era of these games bc we grew up idolizing those players and modern players we all have seen. Pre 90s you have to be a HoF player to get any credit. Even top 50 players like Oscar and West probably don't get enough credit bc when they retired they were top 10 players of all-time. But then you have to wonder how easily the skills translate 40-50-60 years later. Roundfield had a great 3 year peak though. Apparently great defensively. I am not gonna pretend I saw him play. In a bizarre way all the bs back and forth might get people to accept him better moving forward. :)

There is truth to what you're saying but on the opposite end of the coin there are literally about 100 big men Incould list from NBA History who have a peak of about 19/11. Should we assume all of them are good players? Can I start Jeff Ruland or Cliff Robinson (not uncle cliff my but cliff Robinson) and expect him to be as good or better than say Rasheed Wallace or Shawn Kemp? What about Rudy Tomjanovich or Bob Love?

I won't pretend I've seen much Dan Roundfield play (though now I plan to YouTube the ****), but I'd definitely 'stipulated to him being a good defender based on his All-D teams (though we don't know what type of defender), but he made 3 All-Star games. He was All-NBA once. Comparitevly, who is he in the modern era? Serge Ibaka? Can we say definitively he's much better than that?

Redrum187
06-24-2017, 06:29 PM
There is truth to what you're saying but on the opposite end of the coin there are literally about 100 big men Incould list from NBA History who have a peak of about 19/11. Should we assume all of them are good players? Can I start Jeff Ruland or Cliff Robinson (not uncle cliff my but cliff Robinson) and expect him to be as good or better than say Rasheed Wallace or Shawn Kemp? What about Rudy Tomjanovich or Bob Love?

I won't pretend I've seen much Dan Roundfield play (though now I plan to YouTube the ****), but I'd definitely 'stipulated to him being a good defender based on his All-D teams (though we don't know what type of defender), but he made 3 All-Star games. He was All-NBA once. Comparitevly, who is he in the modern era? Serge Ibaka? Can we say definitively he's much better than that?

1.) Ruland can't touch Roundfield on the defensive end. If someone wants to make a case for Ruland's offensive efficiency, by all means... to deny he was efficient is to deny reality.
2.) Cliff Robinson... While a good defender, he can't touch Roundfield defensively either. Offensively, it's a landslide in favor of Roundfield as well when we look at raw and advanced stats. In 3 year peak, Roundfield has more points/rebounds/asts, fewer turnovers, higher TS%. Robinson also had a negative offensive rating in his peak...
3.) Serge Ibaka has never averaged 9 rebounds a game, has only been on 3 Defensive Teams (which is good but modern day defense is dying so it's not like he had a lot of competition, where as Dan had to compete against the great defensive men of the 70's/80's). Furthermore, Ibaka has only averaged 15 points one time in his career... His passing, forget about it. Roundfield did have a good shot, maybe he would have developed a 3 pointer like Ibaka? I don't know.

I don't mind comparisons, but here is one...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1461962

San Antonio Spurs: Tim Duncan Is Dan Roundfield
14 of 15

Tim Duncan - 6'11", 248 lbs.
20.2 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.2 BPG, 0.7 SPG, 50.7% FG, 69.0% FT

Dan Roundfield - 6'8", 205 lbs.
14.3 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.4 BPG, 0.9 SPG, 48.2% FG, 73.5% FT

Tim Duncan and Dan Roundfield stand proudly as two of the best defenders ever seen in the post. Roundfield made his way onto five straight All-Defensive teams from 1980 through 1984 with the Atlanta Hawks. He was strong as an ox and agile too, guarding the best forward or center from the opposing team. Tim Duncan put together an even greater streak of 12 straight All-Defensive teams from 1999 to 2010.

Even though they functioned as lockdown defenders, both players provided ample offensive production too. Duncan has a world-famous bank shot to go with a host of other great offensive moves. Roundfield, although not as prolific as Duncan, peaked in his offensive production in the early 1980s with 19 PPG in 1983 and 1984.

Now then, I don't think Dan Roundfield = Duncan. Duncan is the greatest PF of all time, but peak Roundfield was a poor man's Duncan from what I've read/seen. It's not a bad thing to be a poor man's Tim Duncan... They both had post games, both could shoot midrange, both were amazing lock down defenders (Duncan could guard centers better, but Roundfield was quick enough to guard small forwards), both were good passers, both were unselfish team-first players. Duncan just did those things even better than Dan... well, he did them better than any other PF too, so nothing against Dan.

Redrum187
06-24-2017, 06:41 PM
My personal comparison would be Elton Brand. Per 36 minutes in their 3 year prime, Brand and Roundfield are very close with similar offense. Brand scores 1.3 points more per 36 minutes, Roundfield gets 2 more rebounds though, virtually identical assists. Both could shoot midrange and had good post moves. Where Roundfield separates himself from Brand is on the defensive end. While Brand was a good defender, he was not nearly as good as Roundfield was on that end of the floor.

Should we take a dump on Elton Brand now? I don't think so... I think Brand was a pretty good PF.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2017, 02:04 AM
First, I did say MIGHT be the worst starter. I honestly have no clue who actually is and I doubt anyone would reach a consensus. And KoB is right- no one has probably seen him play. And obviously now we're all gonna look him up to see what the fuss is about lol. And valade is right- tons of people have averaged 19-11. He has 3 all-star games. I mean there's nothing in his resume that screams "Hey this guy should be starting in an all-time game". The All-D teams are definitely important. Tho as I said in that other thread- his peak did take place around one of the weaker time frames in NBA history. The late 70s were a weakish time period and I mean you can go through any all time list and see that there's less players in that time frame then the 80s/90s or even 60s. So I think if he were the modern day Serge Ibaka, you'd have to penalize him at least slightly for playing against weaker competition.

Redrum187
06-25-2017, 03:28 AM
First, I did say MIGHT be the worst starter. I honestly have no clue who actually is and I doubt anyone would reach a consensus. And KoB is right- no one has probably seen him play. And obviously now we're all gonna look him up to see what the fuss is about lol. And valade is right- tons of people have averaged 19-11. He has 3 all-star games. I mean there's nothing in his resume that screams "Hey this guy should be starting in an all-time game". The All-D teams are definitely important. Tho as I said in that other thread- his peak did take place around one of the weaker time frames in NBA history. The late 70s were a weakish time period and I mean you can go through any all time list and see that there's less players in that time frame then the 80s/90s or even 60s. So I think if he were the modern day Serge Ibaka, you'd have to penalize him at least slightly for playing against weaker competition.

His 3 year peak is in the early to mid 80s though. Granted he also played in the late 70's, he didn't start racking up All D teams until the 80's. I would say his peak is about 3 or 4 years before Magic's 3 year peak. I don't fault anyone for not knowing who Dan Roundfield is, I just want to do what we all talked about in chatzy and kill the "old timer" negative bias... especially since Roundfield isn't even Joe Fulks old. :P

But as Valade DIDN'T point out, it's far more than just 19/11, for a big he got about 3 assists/game, 2 blocks, and a steal. The guys he listed were either 1 dimensional or didn't even come close to Roundfield's raw stats. I don't care if a player's name was Gaylord Focker, if he averaged 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 aspg/2 bpg/1 spg and was All D 5x times (All D 1st team 3x during his 3 year peak) then why wouldn't anyone buy Gaylord Focker as a legit starter?

Redrum187
06-25-2017, 06:32 AM
Just wanted to remind everyone of the rule: While a player may be used as a 70's player, you don't have to use his 70's numbers for the peak. I think by the time 80's came along, there was plenty of competition from quality bigmen... I would even say the 70's as well, but that isn't my battle to fight.

KnicksorBust
06-25-2017, 06:50 AM
It is because we aren't familiar with him obviously. 90s are the golden era of these games bc we grew up idolizing those players and modern players we all have seen. Pre 90s you have to be a HoF player to get any credit. Even top 50 players like Oscar and West probably don't get enough credit bc when they retired they were top 10 players of all-time. But then you have to wonder how easily the skills translate 40-50-60 years later. Roundfield had a great 3 year peak though. Apparently great defensively. I am not gonna pretend I saw him play. In a bizarre way all the bs back and forth might get people to accept him better moving forward. :)

There is truth to what you're saying but on the opposite end of the coin there are literally about 100 big men Incould list from NBA History who have a peak of about 19/11. Should we assume all of them are good players? Can I start Jeff Ruland or Cliff Robinson (not uncle cliff my but cliff Robinson) and expect him to be as good or better than say Rasheed Wallace or Shawn Kemp? What about Rudy Tomjanovich or Bob Love?

I won't pretend I've seen much Dan Roundfield play (though now I plan to YouTube the ****), but I'd definitely 'stipulated to him being a good defender based on his All-D teams (though we don't know what type of defender), but he made 3 All-Star games. He was All-NBA once. Comparitevly, who is he in the modern era? Serge Ibaka? Can we say definitively he's much better than that?

I think the defense helps differentiate him from the Rulands/Cliffy/BobLove group. Just look at the 82-83 all nba defensive 1st team:

Dennis Johnson / Cheeks
Sidney Moncrief
Bobby Jones
Dan Roundfield
Moses Malone

Thats a legit defensive team and I know squid/dj/moses get credit.

Redrum187
06-25-2017, 07:04 AM
I think the defense helps differentiate him from the Rulands/Cliffy/BobLove group. Just look at the 82-83 all nba defensive 1st team:

Dennis Johnson / Cheeks
Sidney Moncrief
Bobby Jones
Dan Roundfield
Moses Malone

Thats a legit defensive team and I know squid/dj/moses get credit.

That's a very good point actually. I mean, Bobby Jones is on Bleacher's number 1 best defensive forwards of all time... Roundfield was 4th, Squid was a boss, DJ was legit, as was Moses.

If I didn't know any better, I would suspect one of them actually drowning Roundfield in 2012... R.I.P. :(

valade16
06-25-2017, 09:23 AM
His 3 year peak is in the early to mid 80s though. Granted he also played in the late 70's, he didn't start racking up All D teams until the 80's. I would say his peak is about 3 or 4 years before Magic's 3 year peak. I don't fault anyone for not knowing who Dan Roundfield is, I just want to do what we all talked about in chatzy and kill the "old timer" negative bias... especially since Roundfield isn't even Joe Fulks old. :P

But as Valade DIDN'T point out, it's far more than just 19/11, for a big he got about 3 assists/game, 2 blocks, and a steal. The guys he listed were either 1 dimensional or didn't even come close to Roundfield's raw stats. I don't care if a player's name was Gaylord Focker, if he averaged 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 aspg/2 bpg/1 spg and was All D 5x times (All D 1st team 3x during his 3 year peak) then why wouldn't anyone buy Gaylord Focker as a legit starter?

What years are you using? His consecutive all-star years were 17.4/10.7/2.5/1.7/1.2. If you're using 82-82 it's 18.9/11/2.7/1.3/0.9. If you're using 77-79 it's 14.2/9.9/1.8/2.1/1.0.

In short yes he technically averaged what you're saying but never at the same time. You can't use him when he was a shot blocker for that and use later him for scoring.

KnicksorBust
06-25-2017, 11:21 AM
His 3 year peak is in the early to mid 80s though. Granted he also played in the late 70's, he didn't start racking up All D teams until the 80's. I would say his peak is about 3 or 4 years before Magic's 3 year peak. I don't fault anyone for not knowing who Dan Roundfield is, I just want to do what we all talked about in chatzy and kill the "old timer" negative bias... especially since Roundfield isn't even Joe Fulks old. :P

But as Valade DIDN'T point out, it's far more than just 19/11, for a big he got about 3 assists/game, 2 blocks, and a steal. The guys he listed were either 1 dimensional or didn't even come close to Roundfield's raw stats. I don't care if a player's name was Gaylord Focker, if he averaged 19 ppg/11 rpg/3 aspg/2 bpg/1 spg and was All D 5x times (All D 1st team 3x during his 3 year peak) then why wouldn't anyone buy Gaylord Focker as a legit starter?

What years are you using? His consecutive all-star years were 17.4/10.7/2.5/1.7/1.2. If you're using 82-82 it's 18.9/11/2.7/1.3/0.9. If you're using 77-79 it's 14.2/9.9/1.8/2.1/1.0.

In short yes he technically averaged what you're saying but never at the same time. You can't use him when he was a shot blocker for that and use later him for scoring.

He doesnt just get to use his career high numbers at every stat??? :confused:

unleashthebeast
06-25-2017, 12:23 PM
God this means we're going to have to hear "Roundfield is the GOAT!" until he gets knocked out lol. Don't help RR light the fire now he will never stop

Sadds The Gr8
06-25-2017, 01:18 PM
What years are you using? His consecutive all-star years were 17.4/10.7/2.5/1.7/1.2. If you're using 82-82 it's 18.9/11/2.7/1.3/0.9. If you're using 77-79 it's 14.2/9.9/1.8/2.1/1.0.

In short yes he technically averaged what you're saying but never at the same time. You can't use him when he was a shot blocker for that and use later him for scoring.


He doesnt just get to use his career high numbers at every stat??? :confused:


God this means we're going to have to hear "Roundfield is the GOAT!" until he gets knocked out lol. Don't help RR light the fire now he will never stop

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Redrum187
06-25-2017, 01:58 PM
What years are you using? His consecutive all-star years were 17.4/10.7/2.5/1.7/1.2. If you're using 82-82 it's 18.9/11/2.7/1.3/0.9. If you're using 77-79 it's 14.2/9.9/1.8/2.1/1.0.

In short yes he technically averaged what you're saying but never at the same time. You can't use him when he was a shot blocker for that and use later him for scoring.

Good catch, instead of 2 blocks it's 1.3 blocks. Honest mistake, I couldn't decide what years to use as there were some years he did better than his All Star years. Nevertheless, 19/11/3/1/1 with elite defense is still pretty damn good. :)

Redrum187
06-25-2017, 01:59 PM
God this means we're going to have to hear "Roundfield is the GOAT!" until he gets knocked out lol. Don't help RR light the fire now he will never stop

:laugh2:

Dunkapolooza
06-25-2017, 03:26 PM
Are we trying to say that Roundfield is or among the greatest defensive forwards of all time? Really? lol I think we’re forgetting the sheer volume of players in a draft like this. Dan Roundfield was not “strong as an ox.” Karl Malone was strong as an ox. Larry Johnson was strong as an ox. Gus Johnson was strong as an ox. They have like 20+ lbs of muscle on him. I’m talking about scale here. Dan Roundfield is a quality defensive specialist, that’s the perspective we should have. Is he Bobby Jones or Dave Debusschere on defense though? No. That certainly wasn’t the feeling at the time. Both those guys went to like SIX STRAIGHT 1st team all defensive teams. Even in the years Roundfield made 1st team D the league couldn’t justify taking Bobby Jones out and say Dan was better. Not for a single year of their essentially over lapping careers is there any accolade to say Dan Roundfield was a better defender then Bobby Jones who kept getting all d honor before and after Roundfield.
Roundfield is a quality all time defending specialist. In his own time he was one of the best defenders in the league. But this is all time. Probably almost half the league can make a case for their PF being as good a defender. He’s still a low-end starter like my boy Dave Debusschere. Who is basically twice as decorated a defender, getting All D up until 73/74. Just two years before Dan was a rookie; essentially the same league.

valade16
06-25-2017, 04:30 PM
Team RR wins.

Redrum187
06-25-2017, 05:16 PM
Are we trying to say that Roundfield is or among the greatest defensive forwards of all time? Really? lol I think we’re forgetting the sheer volume of players in a draft like this. Dan Roundfield was not “strong as an ox.” Karl Malone was strong as an ox. Larry Johnson was strong as an ox. Gus Johnson was strong as an ox. They have like 20+ lbs of muscle on him. I’m talking about scale here. Dan Roundfield is a quality defensive specialist, that’s the perspective we should have. Is he Bobby Jones or Dave Debusschere on defense though? No. That certainly wasn’t the feeling at the time. Both those guys went to like SIX STRAIGHT 1st team all defensive teams. Even in the years Roundfield made 1st team D the league couldn’t justify taking Bobby Jones out and say Dan was better. Not for a single year of their essentially over lapping careers is there any accolade to say Dan Roundfield was a better defender then Bobby Jones who kept getting all d honor before and after Roundfield.
Roundfield is a quality all time defending specialist. In his own time he was one of the best defenders in the league. But this is all time. Probably almost half the league can make a case for their PF being as good a defender. He’s still a low-end starter like my boy Dave Debusschere. Who is basically twice as decorated a defender, getting All D up until 73/74. Just two years before Dan was a rookie; essentially the same league.

Dave played in the 60's and 70's... if people have such a hard time with Roundfield's peak in the 80's and wanting to lump it in the 70's, I feel for Dave DeBusschere. They tried using the argument that 70's guys weren't as good as 80's/90's bigmen... how less talented would they think someone from the 60's/70's was in Dave?

Having said that, Dave only has 1x All Defense team selection to Roundfield's 5x. From what I've read, Roundfield was a better defender than Dave DeBusschere. From the site I've posted, Dave was in the top 10 greatest defensive forwards of all time, but Roundfield was higher. I also don't think it's fair to lump Bobby Jones with Dave DeBusschere... I mean, I'm not even doing that with Dan Roundfield. In my opinion Jones belongs in the Pippen/Kawhi category.

When you ask if he was as good defensively as Dave and then proceed to answer it by saying no, how are you so certain? We can only look at raw stats, limited film, and what "experts" say about them. It's one thing to think Dave was superior defensively, but it's another to say it with absolute confidence. (Btw, I am inclided to believe Dave was the superior defender only because I have always thought he was amongst the best defenders with the old guys. Bleacher report seems to disagree. It's at the very least a discussion.)

valade16
06-25-2017, 05:43 PM
Dave played in the 60's and 70's... if people have such a hard time with Roundfield's peak in the 80's and wanting to lump it in the 70's, I feel for Dave DeBusschere. They tried using the argument that 70's guys weren't as good as 80's/90's bigmen... how less talented would they think someone from the 60's/70's was in Dave?

Having said that, Dave only has 1x All Defense team selection to Roundfield's 5x. From what I've read, Roundfield was a better defender than Dave DeBusschere. From the site I've posted, Dave was in the top 10 greatest defensive forwards of all time, but Roundfield was higher. I also don't think it's fair to lump Bobby Jones with Dave DeBusschere... I mean, I'm not even doing that with Dan Roundfield. In my opinion Jones belongs in the Pippen/Kawhi category.

When you ask if he was as good defensively as Dave and then proceed to answer it by saying no, how are you so certain? We can only look at raw stats, limited film, and what "experts" say about them. It's one thing to think Dave was superior defensively, but it's another to say it with absolute confidence. (Btw, I am inclided to believe Dave was the superior defender only because I have always thought he was amongst the best defenders with the old guys. Bleacher report seems to disagree. It's at the very least a discussion.)

Dave DeBusschere made 6 consecutive All-Defensive 1st teams and is widely considered among the best defenders of all-time for a forward. He was selected for the Hall of Fame and the NBA Top 50 players ever list in 96 (neither of which Roundfield was selected for). Bleacher Report can have a lot of people post their opinions, it's by no means credible or definitive. I've never seen another list that has Roundfield as among the best defenders. A single article from Bleacher Report is tenuous at best.

Like I said, I'm willing to stipulate that he was a good defender based on his All-D teams. But to say he's one of the best of all-time is something I'd need more before I believe that claim.

I checked and he has the 7th most All-D selections for a PF. So if you want to argue a Top 10 defensive PF ever, I'd be inclined to believe that.

Redrum187
06-25-2017, 05:50 PM
Dave DeBusschere made 6 consecutive All-Defensive 1st teams and is widely considered among the best defenders of all-time for a forward. He was selected for the Hall of Fame and the NBA Top 50 players ever list in 96 (neither of which Roundfield was selected for). Bleacher Report can have a lot of people post their opinions, it's by no means credible or definitive. I've never seen another list that has Roundfield as among the best defenders. A single article from Bleacher Report is tenuous at best.

Like I said, I'm willing to stipulate that he was a good defender based on his All-D teams. But to say he's one of the best of all-time is something I'd need more before I believe that claim.

I checked and he has the 7th most All-D selections for a PF. So if you want to argue a Top 10 defensive PF ever, I'd be inclined to believe that.

In all honesty, I have the same sentiments as you regarding Dave. I, personally, would put him above Roundfield defensively. The reason most people have Dave (myself included) above Roundfield defensively (not offensively though), is because Dave had a much better/longer career. This is a 3 year peak, not a career peak. So it's more natural for Dave to get the recognition he deserves than someone like Roundfield who had a shorter peak due to injuries. We don't discredit Bill Walton for having a short peak... Hell, he didn't even play in a big chunk of the games during his 3 year peak but he still gets the respect (rightfully so). Peak vs career is different.

And I appreciate your healthy skepticism but objectivity with Roundfield. It's better than just ignoring reality. Hopefully other people do this with their older players.