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View Full Version : Who's better: Paul George or Jimmy Butler?



LOb0
06-19-2017, 06:07 PM
Cavs are looking at both guys. Who would you rather have? Personally I like Jimmy more.

Heediot
06-19-2017, 06:10 PM
Jimmy in the regular season.

PG in the playoffs.

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 06:11 PM
Personally, I like PG better. Very good shooter and his height/athleticism allows him to become a versatile defender. It's close, though. I can see both arguments. I don't think Jimmy B needs the ball as much as PG, also.

KobeOwnSU
06-19-2017, 06:13 PM
David Nwaba

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Heediot
06-19-2017, 06:15 PM
Minny should trade Dieng, Lavine, Lotto Pick for Jimmy and Mirotic. I don't know how the Mirotic scenario works with the cba and s &Ts.

rhino17
06-19-2017, 06:19 PM
I think they are too close to call. Both good, but also both ideally suited to be a #2 on a great team. No one is winning a ring with either as a centerpiece

DanG
06-19-2017, 06:20 PM
It's very close.

I feel like George kinda fits into the offense better because he can shoot very well.

Butler is a better defender though and more physical.

But I think neither would put them over the top though. With George you're a run and gun team, can you really outscore the Warriors?

Butler would bring them more physicality and with him they SHOULD slow the game down. But the lineup is just so damn short, they already got outrebounded in this years finals and if they give up Love who averaged 11 rpg it's only going to get worse.

jaydubb
06-19-2017, 06:37 PM
David Nwaba

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^^

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WaDe03
06-19-2017, 06:38 PM
Jimmy is better and the much higher impact player.

876922871150370816

Very good off ball player, I would guess these numbers are much better than George's.

876810390340087808

3rd highest impact player in the league behind LeBron and Curry. In terms of impact Butler is head and shoulders better.

look! big kids
06-19-2017, 06:40 PM
One thing that's clear to me is that Butler maximizes his talent more than George, who's much more gifted an athlete and more naturally skilled––yet Jimmy tends to be more effective. But I don't know if there's a sort of asymptotic limit that comes with that for Butler as far as stepping up in the playoffs where the rules change and parameters shift, whereas George seems to have an easier time putting on his superstar impression and putting up spurts of incredible offensive and defensive play.

Edit: I respect the hell out of Butler and like him better, thus would love to see him in Cleveland to be able to put his 120% toward a championship effort. A good part of me thinks George gives you the better odds vs. GS, though.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 06:44 PM
Something to keep an eye on, Butler has improved by a wide margin basically every single year. If he takes another step like he did last year he could find his way just outside the top 5. Maybe even in the top 5.

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 06:44 PM
Jimmy is better and the much higher impact player.

876922871150370816

Very good off ball player, I would guess these numbers are much better than George's.

876810390340087808

3rd highest impact player in the league behind LeBron and Curry. In terms of impact Butler is head and shoulders better.

Wow, I actually said Jimmy B was a great off ball player but I didn't think he was really up there. I'm guessing he's really great on cuts and midrange. It'll be interesting to see if he can generate a three point shot, though. Part of why I'd like a Butler to Cavs trade is because Irving and him seem to take 1 on 1's real serious. Might be a great way for both of them to improve each other.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 06:47 PM
Wow, I actually said Jimmy B was a great off ball player but I didn't think he was really up there. I'm guessing he's really great on cuts and midrange. It'll be interesting to see if he can generate a three point shot, though. Part of why I'd like a Butler to Cavs trade is because Irving and him seem to take 1 on 1's real serious. Might be a great way for both of them to improve each other.

Yea I was blown away when I saw that and actually had no clue. I will say I watched every game this year and when both Jimmy and Wade shot 3 or more 3s lee game and shot them with no hesitation they hit them at a very respectable clip. Wade shot 38% from 3 in this scenario and I believe Butler shot that same percentage.

I know they're both working on their 3 point shots and from what I've seen, the biggest barrier is just pulling up with no hesitation and taking the open 3.

daleja424
06-19-2017, 06:54 PM
PG. Similar skill set but PG brings range and floor spreading to the table.


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Aust
06-19-2017, 07:07 PM
Are we taking other things into account like age(same) and contracts? Or this is pure ability?

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 07:11 PM
876930918140841985

LOb0
06-19-2017, 07:13 PM
Glad the stats are confirming the eye test. I thought he was better.

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 07:18 PM
Top SF's IMO:

LeBron
Kawhi
KD
PG
Butler
Melo/Hayward

If we include Giannis, I have him below KD.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2017, 07:27 PM
Are we taking other things into account like age(same) and contracts? Or this is pure ability?

shoulnt really matter... it should all point to butler shouldnt it? PG13 contract will be much higher in 1 season an butler is just the far better player

IndyRealist
06-19-2017, 07:37 PM
Jimmy in the regular season.

PG in the playoffs.

This.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 07:40 PM
876816466120761344

Here's a good article on Jimmy.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 07:40 PM
Jimmy is also a far better player in the clutch

eDush
06-19-2017, 07:44 PM
Cavs are looking at both guys. Who would you rather have? Personally I like Jimmy more.Both would help the Cavs equally but I will take Butler too cause of his D while PG plays Lebron spot :nod:

Aust
06-19-2017, 07:45 PM
shoulnt really matter... it should all point to butler shouldnt it? PG13 contract will be much higher in 1 season an butler is just the far better player

"Far"

OK

HandsOnTheWheel
06-19-2017, 07:47 PM
George

AllBall
06-19-2017, 08:12 PM
Butler.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-19-2017, 08:56 PM
PG is the better player but Jimmy is better for Cavs.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2017, 09:05 PM
"Far"

OK

tell me how he isnt? pretty much all advanced metrics point to butler convincingly... people say well PG13 is the better shooter.. when its not true at all... its actually close.... butler shoots better but PG shoots better from beyond the 3... Outside of that PG13 does nothing better... There isnt anything.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2017, 09:06 PM
so I hear PG13 is better but there has been no stats or argument that supports it... someone enlighten me.

Aust
06-19-2017, 09:21 PM
tell me how he isnt? pretty much all advanced metrics point to butler convincingly... people say well PG13 is the better shooter.. when its not true at all... its actually close.... butler shoots better but PG shoots better from beyond the 3... Outside of that PG13 does nothing better... There isnt anything.

"Far". One can be better, but far is insulting.

europagnpilgrim
06-19-2017, 09:49 PM
Pre injury, PG13

Post injury, even

Aust
06-19-2017, 10:22 PM
Pre injury, PG13

Post injury, even

How much ability did he lose between pre and post injury?

hugepatsfan
06-19-2017, 10:37 PM
I think PG is better but some good compelling stuff posted in this thread. I plan to look at deeper tomorrow instead of doing my job at work.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 10:52 PM
so I hear PG13 is better but there has been no stats or argument that supports it... someone enlighten me.

He's not better, he just has more hype around him than Jimmy because of play style.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2017, 10:54 PM
He's not better, he just has more hype around him than Jimmy because of play style.

he legit has always been over hyped... he was ranked on PSD as a top 8 player... literally there isnt one argument in here with facts for PG13 but yet he is better.

The thing that is most annoying is the arguments that well he turns it on down the stretch... because that matters more than being great all year.... I dont hate pg13... he is a top 15-20 player but damn.

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 10:59 PM
he legit has always been over hyped... he was ranked on PSD as a top 8 player... literally there isnt one argument in here with facts for PG13 but yet he is better.

The thing that is most annoying is the arguments that well he turns it on down the stretch... because that matters more than being great all year.... I dont hate pg13... he is a top 15-20 player but damn.

you said jimmy was far better - which is not true.
PG is arguably a better defender because of his length and also a much better shooter. it's tough to differentiate the rest. Jimmy was on a better team so it's not fair to base it off just advanced numbers. their game are both very similar. it's not like jimmy is a top ten player and pg is in the 20th range. they're both in the 15 range. definitely neither are top 10, though.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 11:03 PM
you said jimmy was far better - which is not true.
PG is arguably a better defender because of his length and also a much better shooter. it's tough to differentiate the rest. Jimmy was on a better team so it's not fair to base it off just advanced numbers. their game are both very similar. it's not like jimmy is a top ten player and pg is in the 20th range. they're both in the 15 range. definitely neither are top 10, though.

I can say with confidence Jimmy is a top 10 player. You'll have to dig in to it a little but if you look at the numbers you'll see he's top 10, impact on games he's top 3, top 10 player in the clutch, very good defender, etc.

Jimmy also wasn't on a better team, that Pacers team was much more well rounded imo. Wade coasts, Rondo didn't want to play until the end of the season, all the role players are terrible, etc.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 11:04 PM
Jimmy definitely isn't far better but he is better.

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 11:06 PM
I can say with confidence Jimmy is a top 10 player. You'll have to dig in to it a little but if you look at the numbers you'll see he's top 10, impact on games he's top 3, top 10 player in the clutch, very good defender, etc.

Jimmy also wasn't on a better team, that Pacers team was much more well rounded imo. Wade coasts, Rondo didn't want to play until the end of the season, all the role players are terrible, etc.

cousins
curry
ad
lebron
kawhi
harden
westbrook
kd
cp3
giannis
wall

i think they are all better than butler.

WaDe03
06-19-2017, 11:10 PM
cousins
curry
ad
lebron
kawhi
harden
westbrook
kd
cp3
giannis
wall

i think they are all better than butler.

Without looking in to it you may but Cousins for sure isn't better, Wall Giannis and maybe even CP3 are debatable but I'll take the guy who has the 3rd highest positive impact in the league. The guy just flat out wins at a high level when he's on the court, he can't help his teammates don't pick up the slack when he's out.

Based on your list I don't see how you could fault anyone that has him in their top 10 because a few of those are definitely debatable.

mightybosstone
06-19-2017, 11:16 PM
Butler's become the superior player. They're comparable defenders, and their base stats look similar. But Butler is a more efficient player and a superior distributor. The difference between them is not some monumental gap, but I'd easily take Butler between the two of them.

mightybosstone
06-19-2017, 11:18 PM
cousins
curry
ad
lebron
kawhi
harden
westbrook
kd
cp3
giannis
wall

i think they are all better than butler.

You lost me with the first name on your list. I pretty much can't take any top 10 list with Cousins on it seriously.

JordansBulls
06-19-2017, 11:18 PM
Jimmy Butler for sure. If on the Cavs it would be his team like the Bulls are and Wade conceded it to him.

mightybosstone
06-19-2017, 11:19 PM
Jimmy Butler for sure. If on the Cavs it would be his team like the Bulls are and Wade conceded it to him.

No. It wouldn't be. That's completely insane, even for you.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2017, 11:25 PM
for **** sakes PG13 is a similar defender or better defender than Butler? Forreal?

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 11:26 PM
You lost me with the first name on your list. I pretty much can't take any top 10 list with Cousins on it seriously.

Cousins is a top ten player for me just because he dominates against nearly every C out there. The guy was stuck on a terrible management team and when on the Pelicans, it was difficult to get AD and Cousins to work together because they were both expected to carry rather terrible franchises. Plus, they didn't have a legitimate distributor at all. The guy can shoot, destroy the paint, rebound, and he's not that bad defensively. If on a better team where he has a distributor and competent shooters, he'd be much better. Think about this, though. the franchise he was stuck with his entire career thought Hield could be Stephen Curry-like. They have no competence.

mightybosstone
06-19-2017, 11:44 PM
Cousins is a top ten player for me just because he dominates against nearly every C out there. The guy was stuck on a terrible management team and when on the Pelicans, it was difficult to get AD and Cousins to work together because they were both expected to carry rather terrible franchises. Plus, they didn't have a legitimate distributor at all. The guy can shoot, destroy the paint, rebound, and he's not that bad defensively. If on a better team where he has a distributor and competent shooters, he'd be much better. Think about this, though. the franchise he was stuck with his entire career thought Hield could be Stephen Curry-like. They have no competence.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into "good stats, bad team" guy. If you need to do hypothetical gymnastics to justify why a guy's losing so much and try to convince others how good he could still be on a good team, then you're trying too hard. And it's not like the West is this insurmountable conference anymore. If you're shooting to make the playoffs and you have a top 10 guy on your roster, you should be able to do that. I refuse to believe that a top 10 player surrounded by other NBA players couldn't crack 35 wins at least once in seven seasons, and that's exactly what Cousins' teams have failed to do.

I just don't think the guy plays a winning brand of basketball, and I absolutely believe that Butler does. Most advanced stats point to Butler being the clearly superior player as well.

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 11:53 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into "good stats, bad team" guy. If you need to do hypothetical gymnastics to justify why a guy's losing so much and try to convince others how good he could still be on a good team, then you're trying too hard. And it's not like the West is this insurmountable conference anymore. If you're shooting to make the playoffs and you have a top 10 guy on your roster, you should be able to do that. I refuse to believe that a top 10 player surrounded by other NBA players couldn't crack 35 wins at least once in seven seasons, and that's exactly what Cousins' teams have failed to do.

I just don't think the guy plays a winning brand of basketball, and I absolutely believe that Butler does. Most advanced stats point to Butler being the clearly superior player as well.

1) Bulls haven't been much better and BARELY made the playoffs.
2) I'm not just referring to stats. He's easily capable of scoring and outplaying the opposing center every game.
3) It's not hypothetical if it's true. Kings are a bad managed team with a terrible system: True or False?
4) Do Bulls make the playoffs in the West? Would they have a worse record? No, and yes.
5) AD didn't make the playoffs this season. Is he a top ten player?
6) The team is poorly built with a lack of shooters.

I don't think it's as clear-cut as making the playoffs. Cousins dominates when he plays.

mightybosstone
06-20-2017, 12:07 AM
1) Bulls haven't been much better and BARELY made the playoffs.
They won nine more games, the difference in scoring differential is substantial and the Bulls actually made a very interesting series against a No. 1 seed. Let's not try to act like these two teams are on the same level. Also, this is one season. Cousins has had seven.


2) I'm not just referring to stats. He's easily capable of scoring and outplaying the opposing center every game.
So? Center is also an inferior position today to what it was 10 or 20 years ago. Cousins may be the best center in the league, but that doesn't make him a top 10 player. It's a league driven by guards and wings, not big men.


3) It's not hypothetical if it's true. Kings are a bad managed team with a terrible system: True or False?
I never said that wasn't true. But it's absolutely hypothetical that Cousins would produce well on a good team because we've never seen him do it. And as far as the Bulls go, they have been pretty poorly managed in the last couple of years. That Chicago team was pretty poorly constructed on paper a year ago, and I'd argue that they overachieved, due in large part to Butler's performance.


4) Do Bulls make the playoffs in the West? Would they have a worse record? No, and yes.
It's a moot point, because we have no idea how that would play out if they were in different conferences.


5) AD didn't make the playoffs this season. Is he a top ten player?
Not the same circumstances. Also, Davis has dealt with major injury issues in his career, and despite playing a much shorter career at this point and only cracking 70+ games once, has accomplished far more than Cousins has. That 2014-15 team was a pretty damn solid basketall team.


6) The team is poorly built with a lack of shooters.
Not a good argument. You know what other team is? The Bulls. In fact, Chicago shot a much lower percentage from the 3-point line than Sacramento and New Orleans.


I don't think it's as clear-cut as making the playoffs. Cousins dominates when he plays.
Dominates in losses, has bad shot selection, pouts on and off the court and plays piss poor defense more often than not. Sorry, but color me unimpressed.

LA_Raiders
06-20-2017, 02:19 AM
PG no question. Butler is a great player, but with baggage,

Scoots
06-20-2017, 10:35 AM
Cousins is a top ten player for me just because he dominates against nearly every C out there. The guy was stuck on a terrible management team and when on the Pelicans, it was difficult to get AD and Cousins to work together because they were both expected to carry rather terrible franchises. Plus, they didn't have a legitimate distributor at all. The guy can shoot, destroy the paint, rebound, and he's not that bad defensively. If on a better team where he has a distributor and competent shooters, he'd be much better. Think about this, though. the franchise he was stuck with his entire career thought Hield could be Stephen Curry-like. They have no competence.

I agree. Anybody arguing Cousins is not a top NBA center are simply not paying attention. He ABSOLUTELY has issues, but he has far outperformed that cluser f of an organization with the Kings. When he briefly had a halfway decent coach who he listened to in Mike Malone he became a MUCH better player.

Unfortunately he's gone to almost as bad a franchise now as he was in Sacto.