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View Full Version : Are Butler, IT & Hayward a good fit together?



GiantsSwaGG
06-19-2017, 03:25 PM
With the rumors out there that the Cetics might offer the 3rd pick for Butler and throw the max at Hayward. The Celtics will have

IT
Butler
Hayward

Now all 3 guys are ball dominating players. I can see Hayward and IT fitting nicely but I have my doubts on Butler. He couldn't so it with Wade and Rondo, needs the ball in his hands to be affective. Do you believe if the Celtics trade for Butler and sign Hayward will it pan out?

hugepatsfan
06-19-2017, 03:31 PM
Butler needs to get back to being the effective off-ball player he was with Rose and he needs to embrace that his most valuable contributions would be as a stopper on the defensive end.

IT played very well with Evan Turner as a secondary ball handler so he can do it - very good off ball scorer when used in that role. Hayward is a known on-ball/off-ball player. Those two would have no problems offensively but Butler needs to really buy in. That'd be the key.

shep33
06-19-2017, 03:34 PM
I don't like it. Hayward is fine, I worry about IT and Buckets.

hugepatsfan
06-19-2017, 03:40 PM
There's really no reason to worry about IT. He played off the ball a lot when we had Evan Turner. I know everyone thinks ET sucks, but in Boston he was a key component. Far and away the second ball handler. We replaced his role as the backup wing with non-facilitators like Gerald Green and Jaylen Brown. Smart and Rozier play PG in position but they aren't trusted the way ET was. As a result, IT was much more ball dominant this past year. If they get talent he'll go back to a more balanced on-ball/off-ball game. I'm not even a little bit worried about him fitting in offensively with other top talent.

FlashBolt
06-19-2017, 03:50 PM
I honestly don't think they need Hayward if they can get Butler.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
06-19-2017, 03:51 PM
Can Celtics afford a new contract to IT and a traded pick for Butlers contract and sign Hayward? Seems like a lot of cap. Besides Horford is on the books. Seems like a expensive big4 if they can do it.

Oakmont_4
06-19-2017, 03:56 PM
Can Celtics afford a new contract to IT and a traded pick for Butlers contract and sign Hayward? Seems like a lot of cap. Besides Horford is on the books. Seems like a expensive big4 if they can do it.

It can be done. IT won't get the MAX but he will get around $20M I bet. Those 4 can fit under the cap right now. So an extension to IT would go over the cap, but only about $14M over the cap.

mavwar53
06-19-2017, 04:02 PM
They need to trade IT in a package for Butler. And either get Hayward or Griffin.

IT is too much of a defensive liability to win a championship as a starter and really be anything more than Jamal Crawford. Great offense but if focus is just on him and if you can have guys 6 inches taller than him playing the same position it just doesn't work. Celtics were better without him against the cavs because it created ball movement but also the switches were now smart or Bradley instead of Thomas.

Bradley
Butler
Crowder
Griffin
Horford

That's a damn good starting lineup.

hugepatsfan
06-19-2017, 04:03 PM
I honestly don't think they need Hayward if they can get Butler.

Yeah I've been wondering myself if he's needed TBH. I wonder if I'm just getting all-star happy. We'd have JB and IT for scoring. Horford is an exceptional facilitator as well from the PF/C spot. Those are the skills Hayward brings. As a part of that foursome you'd have to think they're limited to a degree.

For the money you pay Hayward you could keep Bradley/Crowder (otherwise they'd need to be in the JB package to leave room for a max and a trade) and spend good money on more role players. They obviously aren't the scorers/facilitators Hayward is. But they're better defensively (AB by a good margin, Crowder not nearly as much).

What if you get JB for a package centered around #3 and future pick(s). You keep Bradley/Crowder. That leaves by my calculations about $19.6M for them to spend on two players. Move Rozier to get that up to $20.8M. For $19.6M could you get Dedmon and James Johnson?

IT/Smart
Bradley/Brown
Butler/Crowder
Horford/Johnson
Dedmon/Zizic

That team is exceptional defensively. Brown is still raw, Zizic is an unknown rookie and we know IT is bad. Everyone else there though is good to great defensively.

I seriously wonder if that's a better path than just being star happy and go for Hayward if his main skills are marginalized by playing with other guys who bring them.

Kyben36
06-19-2017, 04:05 PM
personally, i dont think so. i think butler compliments IT much better though, ITs lack of defensive ability means you really do need defender on the court to hide him, while Hayward is not a bad defender, He surely is not going to be able to lock down guys like jimmy can when it comes time to.

Kyben36
06-19-2017, 04:09 PM
i know some might just disagree with me. but honestly, i wonder if the celtics need another big name player, or somebody to fill a role they lack.

say they can grab a guy like Jimmy, I think spending FA money on a guy like Noel (while less flashy) would help them out as a team much more than say a guy like Griffin, Where they really lack is a big who can do the little things they need.

IT
Bradley /Jimmy
Jimmy/Crowder
Horford (finally actually playing PF like he should be)
Noel

while its not a flashy team on paper, i think it works out alot better for them. especially seeing as one of their main issues in the playoffs was lack of rebounding and size inside.

FOXHOUND
06-19-2017, 04:10 PM
I honestly don't think they need Hayward if they can get Butler.

I agree. I think they should be targeting Butler or George in a trade and look to sign Blake as a free agent. Their lack of bigs was a huge weakness, I don't see how loading up on wings helps them there.

hugepatsfan
06-19-2017, 04:10 PM
Can Celtics afford a new contract to IT and a traded pick for Butlers contract and sign Hayward? Seems like a lot of cap. Besides Horford is on the books. Seems like a expensive big4 if they can do it.

It's probably manageable because of the way the contracts are layered out.

Bradley likely needs to go unless they'll pay a good tax amount for a couple of years. This year would obviously be no issues. Next year they'd have to extend IT. personally, I think they'll let him go to market and he won't get a max. I think he'll get like $25M/year, not the full thing. And it only should take 4 years, not the full 5 that they can offer above anyone else. That'll put them in the tax,

The next year Butler is up for a deal and will get like a $10M raise. So deeper in the tax.

But the following year Horford (and Crowder) would be off the books so they'd dip down a good bit. This offsets the extension for Brown that will be due.

The following year Hayward is a FA which offsets an extension for whoever we take #3 this year.

The year after that IT will be a FA which offsets an extension for the 1-2 high picks we'll have next year.

So they definitely pay luxury tax but probably only one year would be a huge amount (the year IT/JB are on extensions and Horford is still on the books). Otherwise, they'll be in the tax but probably pretty manageable.

They key would be that they need to hit on their picks while the core is together. That way they can add to it with good supporting pieces and also be in position to let those guys walk when deals are up.

LOb0
06-19-2017, 04:10 PM
They're good but they're not better than the Cavs or Warriors.

hugepatsfan
06-19-2017, 04:30 PM
Let's be real. There's really no realistic path for BOS to ever get more talented than CLE/GS. If they ever win it's going to have to be a 03-04 Pistons style where they just have that perfect complimentary mix.

Bostonjorge
06-19-2017, 05:19 PM
Can Celtics afford a new contract to IT and a traded pick for Butlers contract and sign Hayward? Seems like a lot of cap. Besides Horford is on the books. Seems like a expensive big4 if they can do it.
IT and Hayward won't get super max contracts. They didn't make consecutive all NBA teams or consecutive all star games so the max for them is less. Hayward won't leave a lot on the table if he walks.

George missing the all NBA team screwed the Pacers. They are only allowed to really offer George 1 more year and he's not really leaving that much $ on the table if he leaves.That's why he rather just go home.

LOb0
06-19-2017, 05:20 PM
Let's be real. There's really no realistic path for BOS to ever get more talented than CLE/GS. If they ever win it's going to have to be a 03-04 Pistons style where they just have that perfect complimentary mix.

Yep. With absurd 04 Pistons level defense. They had a string of holding teams under 70.

mrblisterdundee
06-19-2017, 05:41 PM
I think they'd work fine together and be a serious threat to the super lineup of death.
Butler and Thomas are both guys who need room to operate near the basket and get to the free throw line. But Thomas can drill threes as well as anyone, and would likely get more open shots playing with Hayward and Butler ditto for Hayward, who does everything well, fits in almost any situation and already shoots 40 percent from three. Even Butler's three-point percentage would probably jump playing next to Hayward and Thomas. I could also see Horford's assist numbers spiking.

Edit: It would have to be in the coming year, though. After that, they probably couldn't afford that roster, and at the very least would have zero depth. And I think Smart is going to be integral to any playoff run, as the Celtics' version of Tony Allen.

da ThRONe
06-19-2017, 08:17 PM
I think the better question is are they enough. I'd say no.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-19-2017, 08:50 PM
They'll make it work.