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momoneyyyy
06-14-2017, 01:08 PM
Where does this second championship put Steph Curry?

He averaged 28.1 6.7 ast and 6.1 rebs in the playoffs and did it on 48% 42% and 90%. He also seemed to make up for last years finals with his performance this year averaging 26.8 pts 9.4 rebs and 8 asts.

I think it was pretty obvious seeing that he wasn't fully healthy last season after his first round injury. Steph Joined a pretty amazing list of players with multiple titles and mvps ( russell, wilt, kareem, bird, magic, jordan, duncan and lebron.) although he is the only one without a finals mvp but he was defintely deserving this year if durant didn't put on an all time performance.

Where does everyone rank him in the all time list and among point guards?

archdevil84
06-14-2017, 01:15 PM
he wasnt injured last year and he was realy good this year

GREATNESS ONE
06-14-2017, 01:20 PM
For just PG's all time? Easily top 10

nastynice
06-14-2017, 01:21 PM
Solid performance. The knee injury last year really affected his first step, but beyond that, he was just mentally way better this year. Wasn't forcing as much

GREATNESS ONE
06-14-2017, 01:22 PM
he wasnt injured last year and he was realy good this year

You can easily tell he was hurt, he pulled his uterus in the 1st round.

Firefistus
06-14-2017, 01:23 PM
IMO it doesn't change his position at all. He's still a great PG, best of all time? Hell no. Top 10? Probably, I can't think of many PG's that out-play him offensively. But put him with this list? ( russell, wilt, kareem, bird, magic, jordan, duncan and lebron.) No way, not even close. You listed players that have won Finals MVP, Curry hasn't. The list of people who have multiple rings are literally too numerous to put a list together. (I tried to google it and most lists only come up with a handful of people because it's so vast).

Now, if he wins 3 or 4 rings, even 5 than we can start talking about his name being with those players mentioned beforehand. Not with 2 rings though.

FlashBolt
06-14-2017, 01:28 PM
All-Time: Top 20
PG: He'll end up as #2 if he keeps winning. No way he gets ahead of Magic, though. I saw Steph be average in two Finals and have zero Finals MVP's. Constantly looks like he doesn't want to take the game over.

momoneyyyy
06-14-2017, 01:29 PM
All-Time: Top 20
PG: He'll end up as #2 if he keeps winning. No way he gets ahead of Magic, though. I saw Steph be average in two Finals and have zero Finals MVP's. Constantly looks like he doesn't want to take the game over.

One thing people forget about his first finals is that he averaged 26 and when the series was tied at 2 he completely took over game 5 and dropped 38. And game 6 they basically cruised to a win so he didn't need to force any shots.

Firefistus
06-14-2017, 01:31 PM
One thing people forget about his first finals is that he averaged 26 and when the series was tied at 2 he completely took over game 5 and dropped 38. And game 6 they basically cruised to a win so he didn't need to force any shots.

We don't forget these things, we just don't see him doing that anymore, ESPECIALLY these finals, it was KD all the way who took over.

momoneyyyy
06-14-2017, 01:35 PM
We don't forget these things, we just don't see him doing that anymore, ESPECIALLY these finals, it was KD all the way who took over.

I think that was in part of Tyronne lue strategy. He even stated in an interview with Chauncey billups that their main concern was to keep the ball out of stephs hands. They seemed to double team him the most and deny the ball. But nonetheless KD definitely took over those games. But I think cavs rather have him go off instead of steph. No surprise the only game the dubs lost was the game steph played bad in. When steph is dropping 30+ the dubs are almost unbeatable.

BKLYNpigeon
06-14-2017, 01:41 PM
he wasnt injured last year and he was realy good this year

He wasn't himself for sure. He wasn't at 100% and looked like a shell of himself coming back early from the MCL tear.

Did you guys all see how easily he drove through the entire Cavs roster for all those layups?

nastynice
06-14-2017, 01:43 PM
He wasn't himself for sure. He wasn't at 100% and looked like a shell of himself coming back early from the MCL tear.

Did you guys all see how easily he drove through the entire Cavs roster for all those layups?

I saw that. I saw him put a couple people on skates too :)

COOLbeans
06-14-2017, 01:48 PM
People denying Curry was injured last year are simply wrong.

Based purely off who Id want at the PG position if I were starting a team

Magic, Robertson, Stockton, Payton, Kidd, Curry, Thomas, Paul, other.

Based on offensive impact and personality

Robertson, Magic, Payton, Curry, Stockton, Thomas, Kidd, Paul

If I had to pick one guy to take the last shot then it's Magic, Curry, Robertson, Stockton

hugepatsfan
06-14-2017, 01:52 PM
Same as Durant, it's tough for Curry to really elevate his individual standing playing with this GS roster. The same way you can replace KD with a good player like Harrison Barnes and GS would be an all time great team, you can replace Curry with a similarly good PG and the concept stands. Those guys are obviously all time greats but playing together on such a loaded team it's tough to really prove any individual greatness.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2017, 01:52 PM
Same as Durant, it's tough for Curry to really elevate his individual standing playing with this GS roster. The same way you can replace KD with a good player like Harrison Barnes and GS would be an all time great team, you can replace Curry with a similarly good PG and the concept stands. Those guys are obviously all time greats but playing together on such a loaded team it's tough to really prove any individual greatness.

bingo

xxplayerxx23
06-14-2017, 01:55 PM
he wasnt injured last year and he was realy good this year

lol to say he wasn't hurt last year is hilarious

nastynice
06-14-2017, 02:22 PM
Same as Durant, it's tough for Curry to really elevate his individual standing playing with this GS roster. The same way you can replace KD with a good player like Harrison Barnes and GS would be an all time great team, you can replace Curry with a similarly good PG and the concept stands. Those guys are obviously all time greats but playing together on such a loaded team it's tough to really prove any individual greatness.

If they keep putting up post seasons like this one, no one will be able to deny them. You're right, it will be taken into consideration, but magic and Kareem were both able to carve out names for themselves despite being on stacked teams. Bird and mchale.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-14-2017, 02:30 PM
Curry had a great Finals, but as far as his legacy is concerned... Durant somewhat hurts him.

In 2015 Curry played alright in the Finals, but wasn't good enough to win Finals MVP. That went to a role player who stepped (Iggy). Also he got out shined by Lebron who had zero help in that series.

In 2016 Curry came up small. He was probably hurt though.

In 2017 Curry had his best Finals performance, but was over shadowed by Durant and even Lebron to some extent.

So, he has never been the MVP or the best player in a Finals. I mean he still played great, but when you start comparing him to the all time greats, this is going to hurt his standing. Klay's legacy is probably impacted the most though. IDK Klay's motivation, but if I were him I'd want out of GS.

hugepatsfan
06-14-2017, 02:39 PM
If they keep putting up post seasons like this one, no one will be able to deny them. You're right, it will be taken into consideration, but magic and Kareem were both able to carve out names for themselves despite being on stacked teams. Bird and mchale.

Yeah but take any of those guys off their teams and replace them with just good players and they aren't still all-time great teams. Their individual skills were CRUCIAL to making their teams an all time great. Curry/Durant don't make GS an all time great team, they just make it more of one. They're both proven all-time great players already (probably 20th all time range for both). It's just hard to really elevate a guy's all time standing because he helps them win a title by a little more than they'd likely win it by without him.

Scoots
06-14-2017, 03:24 PM
Curry is a top 5 PG, and that's hard for me to say. I like to wait a long time for perspective ... but he's been great 3 years in a row now and for me the regular season matters too.

I also find it interesting that the top PGs are all so different in how they influence the game.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2017, 03:37 PM
for the 10th ****ing time he wasnt injured last year or hell maybe he was but this year performance does not mean last year he was obviously injured... answer me this... If you add kevin ****ing Durant does that not mean guarding curry now becomes harder? Curry was the benefit of kevin Durant... Meaning curry did not have to work nearly as hard on defense to defend because it was a trickle down effect much like it is in Boston for covering up IT... Durant on lebron... Klay then can guard kyrie or vice versa with green in the middle... curry has the easier ****ing defensive job in the world once they added durant... him not having to do much on defense means he didnt have to use much energy and can explode on offense.. Its why its comical to see the morons say Durant had a better series then lebron... but lets not factor in Durant has klay/green covering his *** while lebron has 2 horrid defenders in kyrie/love... LOGIC PEOPLE... Damn.

GREATNESS ONE
06-14-2017, 04:06 PM
lol MTM. U Mad?

valade16
06-14-2017, 04:56 PM
Same as Durant, it's tough for Curry to really elevate his individual standing playing with this GS roster. The same way you can replace KD with a good player like Harrison Barnes and GS would be an all time great team, you can replace Curry with a similarly good PG and the concept stands. Those guys are obviously all time greats but playing together on such a loaded team it's tough to really prove any individual greatness.

For this year absolutely. But the 2 years before that? No way those Warriors are an all-time great team if you replace Curry with an average PG.

eDush
06-14-2017, 08:39 PM
Same as Durant, it's tough for Curry to really elevate his individual standing playing with this GS roster. The same way you can replace KD with a good player like Harrison Barnes and GS would be an all time great team, you can replace Curry with a similarly good PG and the concept stands. Those guys are obviously all time greats but playing together on such a loaded team it's tough to really prove any individual greatness.

For this year absolutely. But the 2 years before that? No way those Warriors are an all-time great team if you replace Curry with an average PG.Exactly but many Bostoners for some reason are :crazy: when it comes to Steph and the Warriors. That's like saying they can replace Brady with another good QB and still be great but I would never say that even though I hate the Patriots.
:no:

eDush
06-14-2017, 08:41 PM
he wasnt injured last year and he was realy good this yearSo I guess he took 2 weeks off in the playoffs last year cause he felt like it and was crying to try to sell it....get over it :facepalm:

BKLYNpigeon
06-14-2017, 09:03 PM
Without question, Steph Curry best PG in the NBA.

da ThRONe
06-14-2017, 09:07 PM
Same as Durant, it's tough for Curry to really elevate his individual standing playing with this GS roster. The same way you can replace KD with a good player like Harrison Barnes and GS would be an all time great team, you can replace Curry with a similarly good PG and the concept stands. Those guys are obviously all time greats but playing together on such a loaded team it's tough to really prove any individual greatness.

I also have to echo this.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2017, 09:22 PM
Much like Durant he probably can't elevate himself any higher. What was he before this season, top 25? 35? Honest question.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

BKLYNpigeon
06-14-2017, 09:36 PM
In 10 years you'll see the impact that curry has had on the league. He's changed the way it's played now.

Mr.B
06-14-2017, 09:50 PM
Based purely off who Id want at the PG position if I were starting a team

Magic, Robertson, Stockton, Payton, Kidd, Curry, Thomas, Paul, other.

Based on offensive impact and personality

Robertson, Magic, Payton, Curry, Stockton, Thomas, Kidd, Paul

If I had to pick one guy to take the last shot then it's Magic, Curry, Robertson, Stockton

I pretty much agree with all of this.

lol, please
06-14-2017, 10:52 PM
Curry had a great Finals, but as far as his legacy is concerned... Durant somewhat hurts him.

In 2015 Curry played alright in the Finals, but wasn't good enough to win Finals MVP. That went to a role player who stepped (Iggy). Also he got out shined by Lebron who had zero help in that series.

In 2016 Curry came up small. He was probably hurt though.

In 2017 Curry had his best Finals performance, but was over shadowed by Durant and even Lebron to some extent.

So, he has never been the MVP or the best player in a Finals. I mean he still played great, but when you start comparing him to the all time greats, this is going to hurt his standing. Klay's legacy is probably impacted the most though. IDK Klay's motivation, but if I were him I'd want out of GS.

lol'd at that last part.

For one, Klay's motivation is the same as Curry's, Durant's, Iggy's, Greens, and Livingstons - win, unselfishly. Team first.

Second, why would Klay, a member of what will probably go down as the greatest backcourt duo of all time - the Splash Bros, ever want to break that bond? He was also drafter here.

Don't think because Klay had a poor offensive playoff run by his standards this year, that he's any less a threat.

valade16
06-14-2017, 11:01 PM
Much like Durant he probably can't elevate himself any higher. What was he before this season, top 25? 35? Honest question.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

LeBron couldn't elevate himself when he went to the Heat as well. He went from outside Top 10 to some thinking he's on par with MJ.

Like it or not all people will see in 10 years is the 6-7 rings or however many they get. He gets more rings than Magic and he'll be best PG ever.

COOLbeans
06-14-2017, 11:07 PM
for the 10th ****ing time he wasnt injured last year or hell maybe he was but this year performance does not mean last year he was obviously injured... answer me this... If you add kevin ****ing Durant does that not mean guarding curry now becomes harder? Curry was the benefit of kevin Durant... Meaning curry did not have to work nearly as hard on defense to defend because it was a trickle down effect much like it is in Boston for covering up IT... Durant on lebron... Klay then can guard kyrie or vice versa with green in the middle... curry has the easier ****ing defensive job in the world once they added durant... him not having to do much on defense means he didnt have to use much energy and can explode on offense.. Its why its comical to see the morons say Durant had a better series then lebron... but lets not factor in Durant has klay/green covering his *** while lebron has 2 horrid defenders in kyrie/love... LOGIC PEOPLE... Damn.

You're not considering the Warriors defense and the fact that they all switch on the screen and PNR. There is no way that they actually 'hide Curry.' He is an underrated defender and an above average rebounder for the position. Actually one of the best rebounders at that PG position that Ive ever seen.

Chronz
06-15-2017, 03:22 AM
LeBron couldn't elevate himself when he went to the Heat as well. He went from outside Top 10 to some thinking he's on par with MJ.

Like it or not all people will see in 10 years is the 6-7 rings or however many they get. He gets more rings than Magic and he'll be best PG ever.
Nah, I have a feeling people will consider them more like Russell's rings are now. GS will become a modern day Celtics dynasty and everyone will get such even credit for being so overwhelmingly more talented than the opposition that they never touch guys like Bron/Magic.

basch152
06-15-2017, 04:12 AM
for the 10th ****ing time he wasnt injured last year or hell maybe he was but this year performance does not mean last year he was obviously injured... answer me this... If you add kevin ****ing Durant does that not mean guarding curry now becomes harder? Curry was the benefit of kevin Durant... Meaning curry did not have to work nearly as hard on defense to defend because it was a trickle down effect much like it is in Boston for covering up IT... Durant on lebron... Klay then can guard kyrie or vice versa with green in the middle... curry has the easier ****ing defensive job in the world once they added durant... him not having to do much on defense means he didnt have to use much energy and can explode on offense.. Its why its comical to see the morons say Durant had a better series then lebron... but lets not factor in Durant has klay/green covering his *** while lebron has 2 horrid defenders in kyrie/love... LOGIC PEOPLE... Damn.

You're honestly a ****ing moron if you think curry wasn't injured last year.

It's so beyond blatant you're a lebron homer and you base your opinion in whatever you can to pimp lebron and discredit his rivals.

nastynice
06-15-2017, 04:15 AM
Yeah but take any of those guys off their teams and replace them with just good players and they aren't still all-time great teams. Their individual skills were CRUCIAL to making their teams an all time great. Curry/Durant don't make GS an all time great team, they just make it more of one. They're both proven all-time great players already (probably 20th all time range for both). It's just hard to really elevate a guy's all time standing because he helps them win a title by a little more than they'd likely win it by without him.

I guess, I mean I watched them all post season and they were clearly two of the best players. They stepped up big, closed games out, if you watched this team play Curry and KD were clearly two of the best players this post season. And they're learning how to play with each other, KD clearly stepping up in big moments and making shots that lead to wins, and oh that boy Curry, flirting with a trip dub avg in the finals. No biggie ;)

They got the makings of making something truly great and truly special. If you watch these guys talk about each other and the organization, it is pretty clear that they are all about winning chips. Period. A reigning 2 time mvp literally took a back seat to start the season in order to make sure team chemistry and grow. We still have to see how it plays out, but just look at their mentality, they ****in love playing with each other, looks like truly no one gives a **** about who gets the most individual praise. That mentality is exactly what's going to make them both go down in history, that's what's going to give us this shot at creating a dynasty.

*btw, those celtics had 4 hall of famers on their team..

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 07:15 AM
LeBron couldn't elevate himself when he went to the Heat as well. He went from outside Top 10 to some thinking he's on par with MJ.

Like it or not all people will see in 10 years is the 6-7 rings or however many they get. He gets more rings than Magic and he'll be best PG ever.

yeah, i pretty much disagree with every word of this. i can't imagine i'm alone there either.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 07:16 AM
Nah, I have a feeling people will consider them more like Russell's rings are now. GS will become a modern day Celtics dynasty and everyone will get such even credit for being so overwhelmingly more talented than the opposition that they never touch guys like Bron/Magic.

bingo.

ewing
06-15-2017, 09:06 AM
He is just starting out. Kid doesn't have a legacy yet. We have to wait and see

BKLYNpigeon
06-15-2017, 09:23 AM
Nah, I have a feeling people will consider them more like Russell's rings are now. GS will become a modern day Celtics dynasty and everyone will get such even credit for being so overwhelmingly more talented than the opposition that they never touch guys like Bron/Magic.

Get outta here, Bill Russell playing in the league when there were 8 NBA teams and black people weren't fully intergrated.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 09:54 AM
Get outta here, Bill Russell playing in the league when there were 8 NBA teams and black people weren't fully intergrated.

he's absolutely right. Durant and to a lesser extent Curry will be hurt by the fact that we don't know how important they are to their teams achievements going forward. everything becomes a blur from here on out. it's not their fault, but the only precedent we have of this is exactly what Chronz pointed to - the Celtics of the 60's. the number of titles Bill Russell has actually worked against him IMO because it seems too comical, i mean how good must they have been to win over and over and over. in truth, i believe Bill Russell is actually underrated, and Durant and Curry will be too until they go out and find a greater challenge.

Don't hate on me warrior fans, it's not like I'm saying I wouldn't love to be in your shoes.

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 10:17 AM
I honestly can't take their individual statistics seriously. I mean, the one way to really bother Steph (hard and perfect traps to force turnovers and miscues) is all but eliminated because of KD's presence and ability. And KD's defense has been even better since his offensive load is much lower than it was in OKC. We saw his incredible defense in the 2016 playoffs but it came at the cost of his offense. Now, because his offense comes easy, he looks better than what he really is.

I mean, when has the league ever seen the 2nd and 3rd best player on the same team? Not to mention surrounding those two players with a DPOY caliber top 12'ish player in Draymond, and a lights out top 17'ish player in Klay.

We can praise them as probably the GOAT team but it's gonna take a LOT more time, years, and effort for me to start putting KD and Steph on all-time rankings. Their championships would be meaningless for me.

BKLYNpigeon
06-15-2017, 10:33 AM
It's really doesn't matter what people think. They still had to play and earn it. I don't think curry or KD care about goat status, they're not chasing ghosts. I think they'll be happy to be in the conversation in the top5 in their positions. Curry built the warriors franchise and brought it to prominence. At the end of Currys career, he will be in the HOF and and will have a statue.

valade16
06-15-2017, 10:35 AM
he's absolutely right. Durant and to a lesser extent Curry will be hurt by the fact that we don't know how important they are to their teams achievements going forward. everything becomes a blur from here on out. it's not their fault, but the only precedent we have of this is exactly what Chronz pointed to - the Celtics of the 60's. the number of titles Bill Russell has actually worked against him IMO because it seems too comical, i mean how good must they have been to win over and over and over. in truth, i believe Bill Russell is actually underrated, and Durant and Curry will be too until they go out and find a greater challenge.

Don't hate on me warrior fans, it's not like I'm saying I wouldn't love to be in your shoes.

1. Curry won a title and 2 MVPs without KD. People can try to bring up the "we don't know how important they are" rhetoric, but we have objective proof of Curry's dominance prior to this super team. Imagine if MJ won before Scottie, or Magic before Kareem.

2. Bringing up the 60's Celtics only hurts your guys' point. You can't find a legitimate source that has Russell ranked outside the top 10 all-time simply because of his rings.

Essentially your argument is "they'll be a lock for the top 10 but they won't challenge for GOAT". A very pointless Hill to die on.

valade16
06-15-2017, 10:44 AM
Nah, I have a feeling people will consider them more like Russell's rings are now. GS will become a modern day Celtics dynasty and everyone will get such even credit for being so overwhelmingly more talented than the opposition that they never touch guys like Bron/Magic.

I really want to be on the hater's side of history because I do not like what KD did, but people's hate dissipates over time.

And Bill Russell is the opposite of your point. He's near unanimously considered top 10 ever because of his rings. His stats are not top 10 caliber and if he had 0 or 1-2 rings nobody would have him in their top 10. But because he does, boom! Legend status.

Is your argument "they'll win so many rings no one will consider them GOAT but everyone will consider them top 10"?

That's perhaps the best consolation prize in history...

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 11:06 AM
2. Bringing up the 60's Celtics only hurts your guys' point. You can't find a legitimate source that has Russell ranked outside the top 10 all-time simply because of his rings.

Essentially your argument is "they'll be a lock for the top 10 but they won't challenge for GOAT". A very pointless Hill to die on.

I can easily choose 10 all-time players I'd rather have than Bill Russell. Just because the main media "pundits" are glorifying him because of his rings doesn't mean we should as well. Anyone with even a tiny bit of knowledge could see the circumstances that allowed Russell to get the rings he got.

As for KD and Steph, once people start (and they most certainly have started after just one ring together) inserting them on all-time lists, then they deserve to be prodded, nit-picked, and torn apart. That's what was done with Kobe, that's what was done with LeBron (and it's still happening), and that's what was done with virtually every other player with a few exceptions towards the well-liked players.

Because the Warriors are now head-and-shoulders above every other team in the league, it's tough for me to look at their stats (particularly in the playoffs where both KD and Steph have underperformed -in clutch as well as statistically-) and say, "Wow.... KD shot .683TS% with a 27.0 PER!!!! He's incredible!" while ignoring all the years in the playoffs he didn't shoot nearly as well or generally played worse than his regular season output.

lol, please
06-15-2017, 11:11 AM
I can easily choose 10 all-time players I'd rather have than Bill Russell. Just because the main media "pundits" are glorifying him because of his rings doesn't mean we should as well. Anyone with even a tiny bit of knowledge could see the circumstances that allowed Russell to get the rings he got.

As for KD and Steph, once people start (and they most certainly have started after just one ring together) inserting them on all-time lists, then they deserve to be prodded, nit-picked, and torn apart. That's what was done with Kobe, that's what was done with LeBron (and it's still happening), and that's what was done with virtually every other player with a few exceptions towards the well-liked players.

Because the Warriors are now head-and-shoulders above every other team in the league, it's tough for me to look at their stats (particularly in the playoffs where both KD and Steph have underperformed -in clutch as well as statistically-) and say, "Wow.... KD shot .683TS% with a 27.0 PER!!!! He's incredible!" while ignoring all the years in the playoffs he didn't shoot nearly as well or generally played worse than his regular season output.

So since the Warriors are head and shoulders (still use that shampoo, if we keep it 100 like a C-note) above everyone else, we won't hear you talking during the regular season like other teams have a chance, right?

Can't have it both ways boyo. ;)

Hawkeye15
06-15-2017, 11:13 AM
I really want to be on the hater's side of history because I do not like what KD did, but people's hate dissipates over time.

And Bill Russell is the opposite of your point. He's near unanimously considered top 10 ever because of his rings. His stats are not top 10 caliber and if he had 0 or 1-2 rings nobody would have him in their top 10. But because he does, boom! Legend status.

Is your argument "they'll win so many rings no one will consider them GOAT but everyone will consider them top 10"?

That's perhaps the best consolation prize in history...

Russell gets picked apart by most because his rings were the product of a machine. Every top 10-15 player gets picked apart. Durant will be no different.

Time will write it's own story, but we can't ignore Durant's roster, and the fact that he played with a team that still wins if he starts the game by going to center court, pulling down his pants, and taking a dump, getting kicked out.

Context matters over pure ring count. You have read countless posts on LeBron's super team helping him and diminishing his rings. Durant's help takes a huge crap on anything LeBron ever got, so why wouldn't he face even harsher criticism?

valade16
06-15-2017, 11:26 AM
Russell gets picked apart by most because his rings were the product of a machine. Every top 10-15 player gets picked apart. Durant will be no different.

Time will write it's own story, but we can't ignore Durant's roster, and the fact that he played with a team that still wins if he starts the game by going to center court, pulling down his pants, and taking a dump, getting kicked out.

Context matters over pure ring count. You have read countless posts on LeBron's super team helping him and diminishing his rings. Durant's help takes a huge crap on anything LeBron ever got, so why wouldn't he face even harsher criticism?

My point isn't that KD and Curry won't be criticized, they definitely will be. My point is criticism or not they'll still be in the top 10-15 ever.

I have read countless posts on LeBron's super team and now he's in the conversation for GOAT. Meaning for the most part those posts didn't really matter much to his overall legacy.

Bill Russell does get nitpicked for his rings, but I'd rather be nitpicked in the top 10 then adored in the top 50. Look at Nate Thurmond vs Bill Russell. Same era, very similar playing styles. 1 with 11 rings, 1 with a couple. 1 ranked top 10, 1 ranked top 50-100.

If Russell had as many rings as Thurmond does he sniff the top 10? Of course not. So based on that logic, more rings, regardless of how stacked your roster is, is going to help your legacy.

eDush
06-15-2017, 11:46 AM
Russell gets picked apart by most because his rings were the product of a machine. Every top 10-15 player gets picked apart. Durant will be no different.

Time will write it's own story, but we can't ignore Durant's roster, and the fact that he played with a team that still wins if he starts the game by going to center court, pulling down his pants, and taking a dump, getting kicked out.

Context matters over pure ring count. You have read countless posts on LeBron's super team helping him and diminishing his rings. Durant's help takes a huge crap on anything LeBron ever got, so why wouldn't he face even harsher criticism?

My point isn't that KD and Curry won't be criticized, they definitely will be. My point is criticism or not they'll still be in the top 10-15 ever.

I have read countless posts on LeBron's super team and now he's in the conversation for GOAT. Meaning for the most part those posts didn't really matter much to his overall legacy.

Bill Russell does get nitpicked for his rings, but I'd rather be nitpicked in the top 10 then adored in the top 50. Look at Nate Thurmond vs Bill Russell. Same era, very similar playing styles. 1 with 11 rings, 1 with a couple. 1 ranked top 10, 1 ranked top 50-100.

If Russell had as many rings as Thurmond does he sniff the top 10? Of course not. So based on that logic, more rings, regardless of how stacked your roster is, is going to help your legacy.You have that backwards since Russell is already in the top 10 if not top 3 (he is in mine) but yes, Nate was nowhere near as great as Bill regardless of the rings but we know that great players personal and team goals involved winning a championships and will fill like their legacy is incomplete without one. It's base on the criteria of those who grade them I suppose :clap:

mngopher35
06-15-2017, 12:38 PM
I feel like curry was headed towards top 10 status pretty easy without a fall off. Now I think Durant is the one to borderline make it 10-15 (I have given my thoughts elsewhere) while curry will kinda drop back a bit more. Personally I still think he's better/more important to that team than Durant but I don't think that's the general long term perception.

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 01:19 PM
So since the Warriors are head and shoulders (still use that shampoo, if we keep it 100 like a C-note) above everyone else, we won't hear you talking during the regular season like other teams have a chance, right?

Can't have it both ways boyo. ;)

Depends on if new moves are made to improve the current teams.

Sure, right now they're head and shoulders above everyone else but in no way do I think they're unbeatable. A new season brings new challenges, fam.

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 01:29 PM
I have read countless posts on LeBron's super team and now he's in the conversation for GOAT. Meaning for the most part those posts didn't really matter much to his overall legacy.

I don't think they matter as much because LeBron's competition has been pretty powerful in its own right. I mean, Jordan never faced a team as good as the 73-win Warriors or the 73-win Warriors + KD. Even the 2014 Spurs had a playoff run that was probably unmatched by any of Jordan's finals opponents (I'd have to check the stats on that to be sure, though). Up until he faced those high quality teams in the finals, LeBron's super teams were definitely detracting away from his legacy and only the anti-LeBron and Kobephiles are still trying to push that narrative today.

So if this SUPER DUPER Warriors team doesn't face off against a SUPER DUPER opponent, it should absolutely matter to their individual legacies.

COOLbeans
06-15-2017, 01:43 PM
I can easily choose 10 all-time players I'd rather have than Bill Russell. Just because the main media "pundits" are glorifying him because of his rings doesn't mean we should as well. Anyone with even a tiny bit of knowledge could see the circumstances that allowed Russell to get the rings he got.

As for KD and Steph, once people start (and they most certainly have started after just one ring together) inserting them on all-time lists, then they deserve to be prodded, nit-picked, and torn apart. That's what was done with Kobe, that's what was done with LeBron (and it's still happening), and that's what was done with virtually every other player with a few exceptions towards the well-liked players.

Because the Warriors are now head-and-shoulders above every other team in the league, it's tough for me to look at their stats (particularly in the playoffs where both KD and Steph have underperformed -in clutch as well as statistically-) and say, "Wow.... KD shot .683TS% with a 27.0 PER!!!! He's incredible!" while ignoring all the years in the playoffs he didn't shoot nearly as well or generally played worse than his regular season output.

I didnt know you were so knowledgable about basketball history. or that you're over 70 years old and saw him play? The pundits are pundits because they actually do know more than the average fan (which I thought you were). But I digress because you like everyone that I know that saw guys like Russell and Robertson play say those two were unbelievable and even better than advertised.

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 02:15 PM
I didnt know you were so knowledgable about basketball history. or that you're over 70 years old and saw him play? The pundits are pundits because they actually do know more than the average fan (which I thought you were). But I digress because you like everyone that I know that saw guys like Russell and Robertson play say those two were unbelievable and even better than advertised.

So I have to sit and watch guys play real-time (because I'm not over 70) to know how they compare with other guys?

Think about how silly that sounds.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 02:27 PM
1. Curry won a title and 2 MVPs without KD. People can try to bring up the "we don't know how important they are" rhetoric, but we have objective proof of Curry's dominance prior to this super team. Imagine if MJ won before Scottie, or Magic before Kareem.

2. Bringing up the 60's Celtics only hurts your guys' point. You can't find a legitimate source that has Russell ranked outside the top 10 all-time simply because of his rings.

Essentially your argument is "they'll be a lock for the top 10 but they won't challenge for GOAT". A very pointless Hill to die on.

1. You are right in that we know where Curry was as of 2016. Putting a proper relative value on his play from here on out is pretty much impossible. You can believe otherwise, that's fine.

2. I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

The final paragraph is just really really off. I don't know where the dust will settle with so much basketball to be played. I'm only saying they put themselves in a spot where nobody will quite know what to make of their accomplishments.

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valade16
06-15-2017, 02:48 PM
1. You are right in that we know where Curry was as of 2016. Putting a proper relative value on his play from here on out is pretty much impossible. You can believe otherwise, that's fine.

2. I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

The final paragraph is just really really off. I don't know where the dust will settle with so much basketball to be played. I'm only saying they put themselves in a spot where nobody will quite know what to make of their accomplishments.

If they go on to win a ton of rings together, wherever the dust will settle on their legacy, it will be higher then where they currently are. I've never seen someone who won a bunch of rings and had his legacy stay the exact same for anyone already in the Top 25-35 players ever discussion. Not one.

KD and Curry are currently ranked anywhere from 20-35 by most people. In 10 years time, if they win 4-7 rings together, they will be ranked ahead of where they are ranked today. By how much is the only thing we need to determine. Could be Top 5-10, could be Top 10-25. But they will go up.

Is your argument seriously that after 5 years of watching Curry and KD play at a peak level in the league and win MVPs, that because they teamed up we simply can't know how good they are? That's ridiculous. We know they are/were MVP caliber players.

valade16
06-15-2017, 02:49 PM
I don't think they matter as much because LeBron's competition has been pretty powerful in its own right. I mean, Jordan never faced a team as good as the 73-win Warriors or the 73-win Warriors + KD. Even the 2014 Spurs had a playoff run that was probably unmatched by any of Jordan's finals opponents (I'd have to check the stats on that to be sure, though). Up until he faced those high quality teams in the finals, LeBron's super teams were definitely detracting away from his legacy and only the anti-LeBron and Kobephiles are still trying to push that narrative today.

So if this SUPER DUPER Warriors team doesn't face off against a SUPER DUPER opponent, it should absolutely matter to their individual legacies.

We can't have it both ways. Are you saying the Cavs currently are vastly inferior to the Warriors and can't possibly beat them in a Series? Because if you're not, it seems like they have some competition. If you are, were you saying that before the Finals?...

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 03:10 PM
We can't have it both ways. Are you saying the Cavs currently are vastly inferior to the Warriors and can't possibly beat them in a Series? Because if you're not, it seems like they have some competition. If you are, were you saying that before the Finals?...

I'm not sure why you're talking in absolutes here.

The Cavs are clearly inferior to the Warriors. Warriors had OVERWHELMING odds to win these finals. I'm pretty sure it was unprecedented odds. When watching the finals, it's easy to see that the margin for error for the Cavs is remarkably smaller - I'm sure we can agree on that. However, I don't think that means it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to beat the Warriors. I think it would take a ton of luck for them to win.

This is the NBA we're talking about, the best players in the world. It's not unreasonable to suggest that it's "possible" (maybe 5-10% chance for an optimist) for an inferior Cavs team to defeat the superior Warriors team in a 7-game series. It would just take everything going right (super hot from 3-point range would be where to start) for one team and everything going wrong for the other.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 03:12 PM
If they go on to win a ton of rings together, wherever the dust will settle on their legacy, it will be higher then where they currently are. I've never seen someone who won a bunch of rings and had his legacy stay the exact same for anyone already in the Top 25-35 players ever discussion. Not one.

KD and Curry are currently ranked anywhere from 20-35 by most people. In 10 years time, if they win 4-7 rings together, they will be ranked ahead of where they are ranked today. By how much is the only thing we need to determine. Could be Top 5-10, could be Top 10-25. But they will go up.

Is your argument seriously that after 5 years of watching Curry and KD play at a peak level in the league and win MVPs, that because they teamed up we simply can't know how good they are? That's ridiculous. We know they are/were MVP caliber players.
I never said they wouldn't see their rankings go up.

To the rest, I say you may be comfortable using ancient history to form your present opinions - me not so much. There will be some who will share your opinion, but there will undoubtedly be others who note how easy the game looks and wonders how they can fairly apply the same rigors of standard in judging others who don't have the luxury of all the space and open looks.

Lastly I remind you players do actually enter a decline phase, which is a wee bit harder to spot if a player gets more wide open looks than the hotshot at the local ymca

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valade16
06-15-2017, 03:25 PM
I never said they wouldn't see their rankings go up.

To the rest, I say you may be comfortable using ancient history to form your present opinions - me not so much. There will be some who will share your opinion, but there will undoubtedly be others who note how easy the game looks and wonders how they can fairly apply the same rigors of standard in judging others who don't have the luxury of all the space and open looks.

Lastly I remind you players do actually enter a decline phase, which is a wee bit harder to spot if a player gets more wide open looks than the hotshot at the local ymca

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We are talking about their historical ranking all-time in NBA history, there's no other way to form that opinion than on ancient history :laugh2:

But can we please focus on the phrase ancient history for a second? Steph Curry won MVP LAST SEASON :laugh:

Ancient history? Yeah, he was out there ballin' in a 8 team segregated league alongside Jumpin' Joe Fulks and George Mikan lol. How on earth can we ever tell if Steph Curry is still a great player with KD next to him?!

C'mon man.

jayjay33
06-15-2017, 03:28 PM
Get outta here, Bill Russell playing in the league when there were 8 NBA teams and black people weren't fully intergrated.

he's absolutely right. Durant and to a lesser extent Curry will be hurt by the fact that we don't know how important they are to their teams achievements going forward. everything becomes a blur from here on out. it's not their fault, but the only precedent we have of this is exactly what Chronz pointed to - the Celtics of the 60's. the number of titles Bill Russell has actually worked against him IMO because it seems too comical, i mean how good must they have been to win over and over and over. in truth, i believe Bill Russell is actually underrated, and Durant and Curry will be too until they go out and find a greater challenge.

Don't hate on me warrior fans, it's not like I'm saying I wouldn't love to be in your shoes.


No he's not right. Those lakers teams were loaded with HOF'ers. Kareem, magic, worthy, wilks, mcadoo. Not to mention guys like Nixon, cooper...etc. they way more loaded than this warrior teams. Yet magic and Kareem got credit for their greatness.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2017, 03:29 PM
No he's not right. Those lakers teams were loaded with HOF'ers. Kareem, magic, worthy, wilks, mcadoo. Not to mention guys like Nixon, cooper...etc. they way more loaded than this warrior teams. Yet magic and Kareem got credit for their greatness.

Different kind of loaded. The Warriors are more top heavy than those teams for sure. They didn't have the quality depth of talent, but top heavy means more at a certain number.

jayjay33
06-15-2017, 03:35 PM
I honestly can't take their individual statistics seriously. I mean, the one way to really bother Steph (hard and perfect traps to force turnovers and miscues) is all but eliminated because of KD's presence and ability. And KD's defense has been even better since his offensive load is much lower than it was in OKC. We saw his incredible defense in the 2016 playoffs but it came at the cost of his offense. Now, because his offense comes easy, he looks better than what he really is.

I mean, when has the league ever seen the 2nd and 3rd best player on the same team? Not to mention surrounding those two players with a DPOY caliber top 12'ish player in Draymond, and a lights out top 17'ish player in Klay.

We can praise them as probably the GOAT team but it's gonna take a LOT more time, years, and effort for me to start putting KD and Steph on all-time rankings. Their championships would be meaningless for me.


That makes no sense. His greatness is forcing them to do that. Thus opening up other guys. So that's only effective if those guy can't make a shot or play even after steph has freed them up. That not on steph. If anything it's the opposite it shows how great he is when he's got people who can do there job.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2017, 03:38 PM
That makes no sense. His greatness is forcing them to do that. Thus opening up other guys. So that's only effective if those guy can't make a shot or play even after steph has freed them up. That not on steph. If anything it's the opposite it shows how great he is when he's got people who can do there job.

Steph does have a Shaq like impact to some degree, where teams are so concerned of where he is, and unlike Shaq, he can be 30 feet from the rim and still command floor shading.

But the point is, toss Shaq and Kobe another all NBA player in their prime, and another all star level player. Doesn't that diminish the individual credit we give those 2 now? Hell, Kobe's first 3 rings, people already scream about him being the #2 option, so they don't mean what other rings might mean.

There is such a thing as being too loaded. Back in 1984, we didn't have analytics, and game tape of every player. Evaluating players today is much different than it was back then.

jayjay33
06-15-2017, 03:42 PM
No he's not right. Those lakers teams were loaded with HOF'ers. Kareem, magic, worthy, wilks, mcadoo. Not to mention guys like Nixon, cooper...etc. they way more loaded than this warrior teams. Yet magic and Kareem got credit for their greatness.

Different kind of loaded. The Warriors are more top heavy than those teams for sure. They didn't have the quality depth of talent, but top heavy means more at a certain number.


No there not more top heavy. Kareem, magic, mcadoo, worthy, wilks is as top heavy as it gets. That's at least 4 of the 50 greatest. it's not even close. and I could make the same argument for birds celts. They were just as top heavy AND both team had more depth too. They were waaaay more loaded.

jayjay33
06-15-2017, 04:08 PM
That makes no sense. His greatness is forcing them to do that. Thus opening up other guys. So that's only effective if those guy can't make a shot or play even after steph has freed them up. That not on steph. If anything it's the opposite it shows how great he is when he's got people who can do there job.

Steph does have a Shaq like impact to some degree, where teams are so concerned of where he is, and unlike Shaq, he can be 30 feet from the rim and still command floor shading.

But the point is, toss Shaq and Kobe another all NBA player in their prime, and another all star level player. Doesn't that diminish the individual credit we give those 2 now? Hell, Kobe's first 3 rings, people already scream about him being the #2 option, so they don't mean what other rings might mean.

There is such a thing as being too loaded. Back in 1984, we didn't have analytics, and game tape of every player. Evaluating players today is much different than it was back then.


No it doesn't diminish credit. You can only control what you can control.if steph draws a double opening up his SF and then hits said SF with a perfect pass. Some how his credit is enhanced or diminished not only on wether or the the wide open guy hits the shot. But also on who that guy is. If kd hits the shot steph gets less credit for making the play but If Barnes hits the shot steph gets full credit. It doesn't make sense.

Steph avg 27 9 and 8. That's and all time great finals performance.

Also considering the fact they were both league mvp's before they got together. I don't think they'll have much problem getting credit as all time greats. I think kd will be in the top 10 discussion and steph will be in the 10-15 discussion when it's all said and done.

hugepatsfan
06-15-2017, 04:09 PM
No there not more top heavy. Kareem, magic, mcadoo, worthy, wilks is as top heavy as it gets. That's at least 4 of the 50 greatest. it's not even close. and I could make the same argument for birds celts. They were just as top heavy AND both team had more depth too. They were waaaay more loaded.

Exactly. Magic/Kareem get credit for their greatness because it was required for them to be as good a team as their competition. Take them off and they're not competing with their opponent.

Take KD off GS and put a Harrison Barnes in his place and GS is favored vs. anyone. We saw that last year. Maybe some team sneaks up on them like Lebron did but they'd still be favored vs. anyone. You can reasonably assume the same thing applies to Curry now too where, provided they have KD, a "Harrison Barnes caliber" PG in Curry's place would make them as good as last year. Neither is needed for them to be competitive with the other top team(s).

Hawkeye15
06-15-2017, 04:10 PM
No there not more top heavy. Kareem, magic, mcadoo, worthy, wilks is as top heavy as it gets. That's at least 4 of the 50 greatest. it's not even close. and I could make the same argument for birds celts. They were just as top heavy AND both team had more depth too. They were waaaay more loaded.

Tossing names, versus measuring impact during those runs man. You are mentioning McAdoo like went through his top days in LA. Wilkes was a nice player, but I would take Green over him anyday. The Kareem of the 70's was not on LA, though he was still awesome the first half of the decade.

The reason GS is so loaded, is they have 3 all NBA guys, and an all star, in their peaks. No mismatches of career timeline. Smack dab in their peaks. They bring a guy off the bench who won finals MVP 2 years ago.

Number crunch those guys. Worthy, while a deserving HOF'er, was never a 1st or 2nd team all NBA player. Wilkes never made and all NBA team in LA. Neither did McAdoo (in fact his all NBA days were wayyy over by LA).

GS had 3 guys on the all NBA team this year, and a 4th made the all star team (and made a recent all NBA team). The Lakers never had more than 2 players on all NBA teams during their 80's run.

The closest the Lakers get for me, is the 87' team, and even then, they finished 7th in defense, and had 1 all NBA player.

In 15 years, wouldn't the argument you are using be: The 16-17' Warriors had 5 players who were perennial all stars, and HOF'ers.

Because the Warriors are all in their peaks/primes, I still say they are more top heavy.

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 04:11 PM
That makes no sense. His greatness is forcing them to do that. Thus opening up other guys. So that's only effective if those guy can't make a shot or play even after steph has freed them up. That not on steph. If anything it's the opposite it shows how great he is when he's got people who can do there job.

I feel like you're minimizing Durant's impact to just being able to knock down an open shot, in effort to emphasize Curry's impact.

Durant does sooooooooo so so much more. The Cavs defense were constantly on their heels ESPECIALLY during transition. The defense was worn out trying to defend Durant whereas Steph had even more energy because he didn't have to be THE GUY. It was mutually beneficial for both KD and Steph.

Curry is great, don't get me wrong. I'm not trashing your boy. As Hawkeye said, he has a Shaq-like gravity but at the atc. I'm just saying that if you replace Durant with an average player (and GS would STILL be arguably the best team in the NBA) you'd see how the Cavs would defend Steph better.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2017, 04:16 PM
No it doesn't diminish credit. You can only control what you can control.if steph draws a double opening up his SF and then hits said SF with a perfect pass. Some how his credit is enhanced or diminished not only on wether or the the wide open guy hits the shot. But also on who that guy is. If kd hits the shot steph gets less credit for making the play but If Barnes hits the shot steph gets full credit. It doesn't make sense.

Steph avg 27 9 and 8. That's and all time great finals performance.

Also considering the fact they were both league mvp's before they got together. I don't think they'll have much problem getting credit as all time greats. I think kd will be in the top 10 discussion and steph will be in the 10-15 discussion when it's all said and done.

my point is, making the same pass to Durant, that was made to Barnes, reaps different statistical output. No doubt the greatest of the great have won, and in order to win, you need a great roster.

Bird, and Magic, both absolutely get it held against them to some degree that they had massively stacked rosters at times. Magic gets it held against him by me, that he rarely played any teams worth a damn out west come playoff time.

It's a double edged sword. We want the greats to elevate their games, others games, and win. But they need help to do it. The level of help is a balancing beam, how much help is too much?

Fact is, Durant is getting slammed for sticking his arm out, and catching the Chip Express on the way by. Rightly so. And it impacts his new teammates too.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 05:23 PM
We are talking about their historical ranking all-time in NBA history, there's no other way to form that opinion than on ancient history :laugh2:

But can we please focus on the phrase ancient history for a second? Steph Curry won MVP LAST SEASON [emoji23]

Ancient history? Yeah, he was out there ballin' in a 8 team segregated league alongside Jumpin' Joe Fulks and George Mikan lol. How on earth can we ever tell if Steph Curry is still a great player with KD next to him?!

C'mon man.
Do I need to spell it out for you, god you are intentionally dense. 2 years from now, his MVP will be ancient history by pro sports standards. Stop being so obtuse.

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Chronz
06-15-2017, 06:01 PM
I really want to be on the hater's side of history because I do not like what KD did, but people's hate dissipates over time.

And Bill Russell is the opposite of your point. He's near unanimously considered top 10 ever because of his rings. His stats are not top 10 caliber and if he had 0 or 1-2 rings nobody would have him in their top 10. But because he does, boom! Legend status.

Is your argument "they'll win so many rings no one will consider them GOAT but everyone will consider them top 10"?

That's perhaps the best consolation prize in history...
Is top-10 suppose to be impressive given his ring count? Im taking several sources at face value here but there used to be a time when Russ was overwhelmingly considered the best in NBA history and it hasn't changed because of the new guys either, just look at whats become of the Wilt vs Russ debate, it has taken on a whole new meaning for the younger generation. There are obviously a variety of factors here for why this is the case, the growing importance of statistics, change in player movement etc... but above all, I like to think its a contextual understanding of how much of a team game this is that has altered how we view player accomplishments. Russ is underrated tho, KD and Curry will be too IMO. Sure its a great consolation to be in the top-20 or whatever but I had them pegged for potentially greater results. Maybe not too drastically different but I still had KD as a guy capable of surpassing Bird, its gonna take more than hopping onto the most friendliest environment ever conceived to convince me has got the chutzpah


Get outta here, Bill Russell playing in the league when there were 8 NBA teams and black people weren't fully intergrated.

Yeah, and they topped it anyhow, thats why its so ridiculous.

valade16
06-15-2017, 06:50 PM
Do I need to spell it out for you, god you are intentionally dense. 2 years from now, his MVP will be ancient history by pro sports standards. Stop being so obtuse.

I'm not being dense, you're just making terrible points.

Are you saying we won't be able to determine if Curry or KD are really that good because they are playing together?

Who cares, at this point we've seen them at their peaks. Nobody knocked Kareem because we didn't know if he was really that good with Magic because we'd already seen him be a beast in Milwaukee. Nobody wondered if LeBron was really that good because we'd seen him do it all in Cleveland.

If we never see another concrete example of how good KD or Steph are, we know how insanely good they were before they teamed up. And rings can only add to that.

It's not denseness that is failing to see your point, it's stubbornness to hold onto such a bad point in the first place...

valade16
06-15-2017, 06:56 PM
Is top-10 suppose to be impressive given his ring count? Im taking several sources at face value here but there used to be a time when Russ was overwhelmingly considered the best in NBA history and it hasn't changed because of the new guys either, just look at whats become of the Wilt vs Russ debate, it has taken on a whole new meaning for the younger generation. There are obviously a variety of factors here for why this is the case, the growing importance of statistics, change in player movement etc... but above all, I like to think its a contextual understanding of how much of a team game this is that has altered how we view player accomplishments. Russ is underrated tho, KD and Curry will be too IMO. Sure its a great consolation to be in the top-20 or whatever but I had them pegged for potentially greater results. Maybe not too drastically different but I still had KD as a guy capable of surpassing Bird, its gonna take more than hopping onto the most friendliest environment ever conceived to convince me has got the chutzpah

First Bolded: You're not supposed to be impressed he's top 10 with his ring account, you are supposed to be impressed he's top 10 with his ability. I mean, is anyone contesting that without 10 rings he wouldn't be top 10? If Russell can go from Top 50 level guy to Top 10 because of 11 rings, I don't see how a bunch of rings doesn't help Steph and KD.

Second Bolded: We are in agreement here. I think Steph and KD teaming up has raised their floor but lowered their ceiling in terms of where they will get ranked all-time. Like they are for sure going to be Top 25 when all is said and done, likely closer to Top 10-15 but I don't know if they can surpass Bird and Magic for example.

What they did was assure themselves of a Top 20 place in history at the expense of striving for Top 5-10 IMO.

FlashBolt
06-15-2017, 07:32 PM
I'm not being dense, you're just making terrible points.

Are you saying we won't be able to determine if Curry or KD are really that good because they are playing together?

Who cares, at this point we've seen them at their peaks. Nobody knocked Kareem because we didn't know if he was really that good with Magic because we'd already seen him be a beast in Milwaukee. Nobody wondered if LeBron was really that good because we'd seen him do it all in Cleveland.

If we never see another concrete example of how good KD or Steph are, we know how insanely good they were before they teamed up. And rings can only add to that.

It's not denseness that is failing to see your point, it's stubbornness to hold onto such a bad point in the first place...

LeBron after Miami was clearly a much different player than his original Cleveland days. That level of progression was there because he had to progress. His point is simply put, Curry and KD both on an individual level had more to prove and we're not going to see that. It's a tad-bit like what we're seeing with Kyrie. We'll probably never know how good he can really be on an individual level if LeBron is on that team. It's actually part of why Kobe wanted to win a ring without Shaq so bad. It has nothing to do with being on a historic team but just proving to yourself that you could do it. And so far, Curry nor Durant have done it.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 07:54 PM
I'm not being dense, you're just making terrible points.

Are you saying we won't be able to determine if Curry or KD are really that good because they are playing together?

Who cares, at this point we've seen them at their peaks. Nobody knocked Kareem because we didn't know if he was really that good with Magic because we'd already seen him be a beast in Milwaukee. Nobody wondered if LeBron was really that good because we'd seen him do it all in Cleveland.

If we never see another concrete example of how good KD or Steph are, we know how insanely good they were before they teamed up. And rings can only add to that.

It's not denseness that is failing to see your point, it's stubbornness to hold onto such a bad point in the first place...
Moving on... I feel like there are others who have understood exactly what I mean so I'm not spending any more time with this. I don't need to spend ten mins blathering like Skip Bayless when I've been clear as a bell in less than a hundred words.

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valade16
06-15-2017, 08:04 PM
LeBron after Miami was clearly a much different player than his original Cleveland days. That level of progression was there because he had to progress. His point is simply put, Curry and KD both on an individual level had more to prove and we're not going to see that. It's a tad-bit like what we're seeing with Kyrie. We'll probably never know how good he can really be on an individual level if LeBron is on that team. It's actually part of why Kobe wanted to win a ring without Shaq so bad. It has nothing to do with being on a historic team but just proving to yourself that you could do it. And so far, Curry nor Durant have done it.

Curry hasn't done it? He won a title and 2 MVPs, including the only unanimous MVP in history.

valade16
06-15-2017, 08:05 PM
Moving on... I feel like there are others who have understood exactly what I mean so I'm not spending any more time with this. I don't need to spend ten mins blathering like Skip Bayless when I've been clear as a bell in less than a hundred words.

Once again, the problem with your point wasn't clarity, but quality.

FlashBolt
06-15-2017, 08:12 PM
Curry hasn't done it? He won a title and 2 MVPs, including the only unanimous MVP in history.

Players aren't judged by regular season anymore. The greats at least, weren't. Or else LeBron would be the GOAT. He won a title, that's right. But we all knew that those were under terrible circumstances such as LeBron not having a full roster and what do you know? Iggy won the Finals MVP. If you were to ask me where I would rank Curry after that first championship, I would barely move him a few spots. The guy won a ring while not having the most impact on his team overall. Let's not talk about 2016 because we all know what happened.. again, the guy didn't show up. He was the fourth best player in a series in which he had the chance to elevate himself. Then next season shows up and once again, he was probably the 3-4th best player for the series. It wasn't even close. We saw a KD+LeBron look vastly superior to Curry.

Now, I'm not saying Curry isn't great and I wasn't convinced he wouldn't be. But some guys just needed additional testing when we have to split hairs and rank them. I don't think Curry has broken the Finals stigma of him being the best player and he underperformed in two Finals and looked inferior in the last one.

FlashBolt
06-15-2017, 08:15 PM
Once again, the problem with your point wasn't clarity, but quality.

I disagree. I don't think we've seen enough of Curry to truly establish how great he could have become. There was a huge difference in the LeBron today from the LeBron back at 2008. There's no ifs and buts about that. The difference is simply him having to grow as a player. Curry's growth as an INDIVIDUAL player will be hurt by KD staying. It is what it is. I had Curry above KD, actually, until KD won the ring. It was heading towards Curry being better than KD when it is all said and done. Now, it's looking like it is KD's team and Curry has to take a deep seat back. That's what happens when you stuff two great players at their prime. LeBron was both fortunate and unfortunate in that Wade was already leaving his prime and we're now seeing Kyrie not hit his prime yet.

You actually did mention LeBron in his original Cavs stint. Yeah, there were still questions as to "can he do it." And then it became, "can he do it with Cleveland." Curry has still yet to prove he can do it as the first option because quite frankly, he hasn't.

valade16
06-15-2017, 08:34 PM
Players aren't judged by regular season anymore. The greats at least, weren't. Or else LeBron would be the GOAT. He won a title, that's right. But we all knew that those were under terrible circumstances such as LeBron not having a full roster and what do you know? Iggy won the Finals MVP. If you were to ask me where I would rank Curry after that first championship, I would barely move him a few spots. The guy won a ring while not having the most impact on his team overall. Let's not talk about 2016 because we all know what happened.. again, the guy didn't show up. He was the fourth best player in a series in which he had the chance to elevate himself. Then next season shows up and once again, he was probably the 3-4th best player for the series. It wasn't even close. We saw a KD+LeBron look vastly superior to Curry.

Now, I'm not saying Curry isn't great and I wasn't convinced he wouldn't be. But some guys just needed additional testing when we have to split hairs and rank them. I don't think Curry has broken the Finals stigma of him being the best player and he underperformed in two Finals and looked inferior in the last one.

You must be joking. Curry was easily the most impactful player on their title team for the entire season. Iggy won FMVP because he played exceptionally well for what was expected of him, but Steph averaged 26 PPG that's eries. He did not play poorly at all.


I disagree. I don't think we've seen enough of Curry to truly establish how great he could have become. There was a huge difference in the LeBron today from the LeBron back at 2008. There's no ifs and buts about that. The difference is simply him having to grow as a player. Curry's growth as an INDIVIDUAL player will be hurt by KD staying. It is what it is. I had Curry above KD, actually, until KD won the ring. It was heading towards Curry being better than KD when it is all said and done. Now, it's looking like it is KD's team and Curry has to take a deep seat back. That's what happens when you stuff two great players at their prime. LeBron was both fortunate and unfortunate in that Wade was already leaving his prime and we're now seeing Kyrie not hit his prime yet.

You actually did mention LeBron in his original Cavs stint. Yeah, there were still questions as to "can he do it." And then it became, "can he do it with Cleveland." Curry has still yet to prove he can do it as the first option because quite frankly, he hasn't.

KD balled out in the Finals and I'm sure his anger at all the criticism he received pushed him to play better, but in no way did Curry take a backseat to KD this season. He was the leading scorer in the regular season still.

I don't think you're opinion of Curry would have been substantially changed had you got to see more of him because based on your opinion of him now, you underrate him.

It's funny that Curry outplaying KD head to head in the WCF somehow takes a backseat to KD outplaying Curry in the Finals on the same team.

Curry has done a lot of things KD has never done, KD has done won thing Curry hasn't (FMVP). And that one thing won't blind me to everything else (though it appears to have done so for you).

Vee-Rex
06-15-2017, 08:52 PM
You kinda see what a team is all about when they're playing their best against tough competition. I think KD is the best player on the Warriors and he's the team's #1 guy.

The regular season wouldn't necessarily show that. Dudes are pacing themselves because it's a marathon, not a sprint. Only in the playoffs in crunch-time-we-gotta-win-this-game moments do you see them for what they are, and I'm sorry but it's KD's team.

It's a close call but honestly that's the way I see it with how they played in the finals.

valade16
06-15-2017, 08:54 PM
You kinda see what a team is all about when they're playing their best against tough competition. I think KD is the best player on the Warriors and he's the team's #1 guy.

The regular season wouldn't necessarily show that. Dudes are pacing themselves because it's a marathon, not a sprint. Only in the playoffs in crunch-time-we-gotta-win-this-game moments do you see them for what they are, and I'm sorry but it's KD's team.

It's a close call but honestly that's the way I see it with how they played in the finals.

When did they play any "we gotta win this" games? They cakewalked through the entirety of the playoffs and blasted the Cavs for the majority of the series.

valade16
06-15-2017, 08:57 PM
Lol, people seriously think KD going to GS is going to adversely affect his legacy? People already seem to have forgotten everything about KD except the last 5 games and his FMVP. Now he's the best player and he's great and all this.

If people's anger at his decision can't even last a week past the Finals, zero chance it really seriously impacts his legacy in 20 years lol

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 09:50 PM
Once again, the problem with your point wasn't clarity, but quality.
It's funny how you completely agreed with what I am saying in post 75 though. Stay classy Valade.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

valade16
06-15-2017, 09:55 PM
Do I need to spell it out for you, god you are intentionally dense. 2 years from now, his MVP will be ancient history by pro sports standards. Stop being so obtuse.


Moving on... I feel like there are others who have understood exactly what I mean so I'm not spending any more time with this. I don't need to spend ten mins blathering like Skip Bayless when I've been clear as a bell in less than a hundred words.



It's funny how you completely agreed with what I am saying in post 75 though. Stay classy Valade.

You've been a real paragon of class :rolleyes:

Jamiecballer
06-15-2017, 09:58 PM
Sorry if that is somehow offensive to you. But talking to someone should not have to feel like work.

I'll be sure to send skip an e-apology though if it makes you feel better about it.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

nastynice
06-15-2017, 10:01 PM
Lol, people seriously think KD going to GS is going to adversely affect his legacy? People already seem to have forgotten everything about KD except the last 5 games and his FMVP. Now he's the best player and he's great and all this.

If people's anger at his decision can't even last a week past the Finals, zero chance it really seriously impacts his legacy in 20 years lol

Haha, so true, as far as the media, they're basically all over it. The guy played amazing, and picked the right spots in which to exert himself over the best player in basketball. I've pretty much seen nothing but props for him.

At the end of the day, we're sports fans, the guy was entertaining

IKnowHoops
06-15-2017, 10:16 PM
I'd probably take Curry #1 overall when it comes to point guards in NBA history. 3 pt shot is just to dirty to pass up.

GREATNESS ONE
06-15-2017, 10:23 PM
I'd probably take Curry #1 overall when it comes to point guards in NBA history. 3 pt shot is just to dirty to pass up.

Curry is no Magic.....

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 10:56 PM
All-Time: Top 20
PG: He'll end up as #2 if he keeps winning. No way he gets ahead of Magic, though. I saw Steph be average in two Finals and have zero Finals MVP's. Constantly looks like he doesn't want to take the game over.

With all do respect and this is a 💯% honest answer. Curry's going to do whatever he feels gives his team he best chance to win. So win the Cavs had been doubling him 30 ft from the hoop and he gives it up to dray it's not his fault HB couldn't hit a wide open shot last year. He was literally getting him the highest % shots and he just couldn't hit them. People seem to discredit Steph cause he didn't have the #s but he doesn't chase #s.

Today he said at the parade he would be stupid not to want KD on his team. Nike vs UA money mvps who's team etc didn't matter he said it's a team sport and he will always do what it takes for his team to win.

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 10:57 PM
Curry is no Magic.....

Magic is no Curry...

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 10:58 PM
Y'all can try and say it's not true but real b ball heads know Steph defense > magics defense.

Magic was sooooooooo bad on defense

LA_1
06-15-2017, 11:01 PM
Magic is no Curry...

Lmao...you've got to be one stupid MF if you think this

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 11:01 PM
And this KD vs Steph argument is outside the bay. Everybody in the bay knows this is Stephs team no question. Iggy was asked if the team is going to the white house he said we're going to do what out leader (curry) does. Tyron Lue said it best. KD got off for 35 in game 4 but stopping curry ****ed up our whole offense. KD could be better but Steph is more important. 90% of real dubs fans will tell you the same

LA_1
06-15-2017, 11:06 PM
Damn dub fans are probably the worst fans to have a logical conversation with. Zero ball knowledge and 100% homerrism.

That's KD's team. He's the reason you guys won. And will be the reason why you guys keep winning. KD has balls to take over a game unlike Stephanie curry

FlashBolt
06-15-2017, 11:34 PM
With all do respect and this is a 💯% honest answer. Curry's going to do whatever he feels gives his team he best chance to win. So win the Cavs had been doubling him 30 ft from the hoop and he gives it up to dray it's not his fault HB couldn't hit a wide open shot last year. He was literally getting him the highest % shots and he just couldn't hit them. People seem to discredit Steph cause he didn't have the #s but he doesn't chase #s.

Today he said at the parade he would be stupid not to want KD on his team. Nike vs UA money mvps who's team etc didn't matter he said it's a team sport and he will always do what it takes for his team to win.

Stop lying to yourself. He's the MVP of those Finals and he played like a chump. Harrison Barnes? Stop lying, again. Curry had more turnovers than assists in the 2016 Finals. Iguodala was clearly the more impactful player for the Warriors in 2015. If he doesn't guard LeBron and make it difficult on him, he would be dropping 50 on Steph.

jayjay33
06-15-2017, 11:36 PM
No there not more top heavy. Kareem, magic, mcadoo, worthy, wilks is as top heavy as it gets. That's at least 4 of the 50 greatest. it's not even close. and I could make the same argument for birds celts. They were just as top heavy AND both team had more depth too. They were waaaay more loaded.

Tossing names, versus measuring impact during those runs man. You are mentioning McAdoo like went through his top days in LA. Wilkes was a nice player, but I would take Green over him anyday. The Kareem of the 70's was not on LA, though he was still awesome the first half of the decade.

The reason GS is so loaded, is they have 3 all NBA guys, and an all star, in their peaks. No mismatches of career timeline. Smack dab in their peaks. They bring a guy off the bench who won finals MVP 2 years ago.

Number crunch those guys. Worthy, while a deserving HOF'er, was never a 1st or 2nd team all NBA player. Wilkes never made and all NBA team in LA. Neither did McAdoo (in fact his all NBA days were wayyy over by LA).

GS had 3 guys on the all NBA team this year, and a 4th made the all star team (and made a recent all NBA team). The Lakers never had more than 2 players on all NBA teams during their 80's run.

The closest the Lakers get for me, is the 87' team, and even then, they finished 7th in defense, and had 1 all NBA player.

In 15 years, wouldn't the argument you are using be: The 16-17' Warriors had 5 players who were perennial all stars, and HOF'ers.

Because the Warriors are all in their peaks/primes, I still say they are more top heavy.


Nope sorry you could be more wrong. Just like klay not making the all NBA team this year is a perfect example. Those guys were still great players they sacrificed individual success for rings with the lakers.

You can pretend those are just names if you want. But guys green and klay have a loooong way to go to match those names.







No there not more top heavy. Kareem, magic, mcadoo, worthy, wilks is as top heavy as it gets. That's at least 4 of the 50 greatest. it's not even close. and I could make the same argument for birds celts. They were just as top heavy AND both team had more depth too. They were waaaay more loaded.

Tossing names, versus measuring impact during those runs man. You are mentioning McAdoo like went through his top days in LA. Wilkes was a nice player, but I would take Green over him anyday. The Kareem of the 70's was not on LA, though he was still awesome the first half of the decade.

The reason GS is so loaded, is they have 3 all NBA guys, and an all star, in their peaks. No mismatches of career timeline. Smack dab in their peaks. They bring a guy off the bench who won finals MVP 2 years ago.

Number crunch those guys. Worthy, while a deserving HOF'er, was never a 1st or 2nd team all NBA player. Wilkes never made and all NBA team in LA. Neither did McAdoo (in fact his all NBA days were wayyy over by LA).

GS had 3 guys on the all NBA team this year, and a 4th made the all star team (and made a recent all NBA team). The Lakers never had more than 2 players on all NBA teams during their 80's run.

The closest the Lakers get for me, is the 87' team, and even then, they finished 7th in defense, and had 1 all NBA player.

In 15 years, wouldn't the argument you are using be: The 16-17' Warriors had 5 players who were perennial all stars, and HOF'ers.

Because the Warriors are all in their peaks/primes, I still say they are more top heavy.


Nope sorry you could not be more wrong. Just like klay not making the all NBA team this year is a perfect example. Those guys were still great players they sacrificed individual success for rings with the lakers. And wilks made the all star team twice in la. Norm Nixon made it twice in that same time frame.


You can pretend those are just names if you want. But those guys were with out question among the best players in the league. They were loaded with HOF'ers and all stars. It's not even close.

If magic and Kareem got credit playing with them. Curry and Durant damn sure can for playing with klay, dray, and iggy. Lol

FlashBolt
06-15-2017, 11:54 PM
Nope sorry you could be more wrong. Just like klay not making the all NBA team this year is a perfect example. Those guys were still great players they sacrificed individual success for rings with the lakers.

You can pretend those are just names if you want. But guys green and klay have a loooong way to go to match those names.








Nope sorry you could not be more wrong. Just like klay not making the all NBA team this year is a perfect example. Those guys were still great players they sacrificed individual success for rings with the lakers. And wilks made the all star team twice in la. Norm Nixon made it twice in that same time frame.


You can pretend those are just names if you want. But those guys were with out question among the best players in the league. They were loaded with HOF'ers and all stars. It's not even close.

If magic and Kareem got credit playing with them. Curry and Durant damn sure can for playing with klay, dray, and iggy. Lol

1980's talent wasn't as huge as it is now so most of the people making it back then weren't as great as you pictured them to be. There were a few guys and that was that. Today, there are numerous players worthy of consideration. Second, yes, they were All-Stars but anyone could be an All-Star if you averaged near 20 points per game because West was damn weak. A lot of those guys who made it wouldn't have made it in today's generation and that's a fact. The West today is damn near at the highest competition it has been in terms of quality talent. East, not so much - which is why Kevin Love getting an All-Star nod is hilarious. He wasn't really that good if we're comparing him to the guys out West. Realistically, Cavs would only have one All-Star if we consolidated everything - which is what the All-NBA teams are.. and which is why Wilkes and Nixon didn't make it. Some said Klay should have made it but I disagree.

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 11:54 PM
Like I said ask a warriors fan. I live in the bay area, know hella warriors fan everybody in the bay knows that this is Stephs team and he's what makes this team go. Iggy even said it himself. Y'all are just misinformed by mainstream media

jayjay33
06-15-2017, 11:55 PM
No there not more top heavy. Kareem, magic, mcadoo, worthy, wilks is as top heavy as it gets. That's at least 4 of the 50 greatest. it's not even close. and I could make the same argument for birds celts. They were just as top heavy AND both team had more depth too. They were waaaay more loaded.

Exactly. Magic/Kareem get credit for their greatness because it was required for them to be as good a team as their competition. Take them off and they're not competing with their opponent.

Take KD off GS and put a Harrison Barnes in his place and GS is favored vs. anyone. We saw that last year. Maybe some team sneaks up on them like Lebron did but they'd still be favored vs. anyone. You can reasonably assume the same thing applies to Curry now too where, provided they have KD, a "Harrison Barnes caliber" PG in Curry's place would make them as good as last year. Neither is needed for them to be competitive with the other top team(s).


Except we know for a fact nor of that is true. They were down 3-1 to okc. And it took okc choking the even get to the finals. Then they lost in the finals. And if you replace kd with Barnes they lose again this year.

By that logic Jordan should get almost no credit. He left the Bulls. Didn't even get replaced. And they still almost went to the finals. And Would have if not for 1 of the all time bad calls in NBA history.

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 11:55 PM
Lmao...you've got to be one stupid MF if you think this

Magic could shoot like curry? Magic drew double teams? Nah

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 11:56 PM
Think of that curry consistently draws double teams as a guard cmon give the man his respect

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 11:57 PM
Tyron Lue said it. Like y'all trying to argue with me and your point blank wrong.

The Golden State Warriors are Wardell Stephen Curry's team.

Monta is beast
06-15-2017, 11:59 PM
Not too mention magics defense can't be compared to Stephs. Even tho again mainstream media has most of you convinced Curry is some terrible defender.

jayjay33
06-16-2017, 12:09 AM
That makes no sense. His greatness is forcing them to do that. Thus opening up other guys. So that's only effective if those guy can't make a shot or play even after steph has freed them up. That not on steph. If anything it's the opposite it shows how great he is when he's got people who can do there job.

I feel like you're minimizing Durant's impact to just being able to knock down an open shot, in effort to emphasize Curry's impact.

Durant does sooooooooo so so much more. The Cavs defense were constantly on their heels ESPECIALLY during transition. The defense was worn out trying to defend Durant whereas Steph had even more energy because he didn't have to be THE GUY. It was mutually beneficial for both KD and Steph.

Curry is great, don't get me wrong. I'm not trashing your boy. As Hawkeye said, he has a Shaq-like gravity but at the atc. I'm just saying that if you replace Durant with an average player (and GS would STILL be arguably the best team in the NBA) you'd see how the Cavs would defend Steph better.

Lol....your basically saying if they could double and trap him every play. They could defend him better. You can do that to any player. No matter how great It's on their team mates to make them pay for it. See how well that works if Barnes is making all those open shots.

That's not stoping steph thats taking advantage of a weak link. Curry only had 1 reliable shooter. And the same goes for KD. Every star needs players who can keep the defense honest.

Plus curry was hurt which made him much easier to trap and defend.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 12:13 AM
Magic could shoot like curry? Magic drew double teams? Nah

Magic was a better all-around player than Curry and you're an absolute joker if you don't think Magic would command double teams playing for a team that had shooters everywhere. You're probably too young to have witnessed anything regarding Magic but the guy was more than a passer and was capable of scoring if he wanted to. He couldn't shoot like Curry but neither could MJ. And don't talk about defense when they hid Curry on J.R. Smith because Kyrie was lighting up Curry. Curry drew double teams as a guard? Wow, I guess RWB, John Wall, Kyrie, Iverson, MJ, Wade, Kobe, CP3, Magic, and a bunch of other guards never drew double teams.. man, you are hilarious. Trying to compare Magic to Curry when your boy lost Finals MVP to Iguodala.. stop it.

jayjay33
06-16-2017, 12:15 AM
Damn dub fans are probably the worst fans to have a logical conversation with. Zero ball knowledge and 100% homerrism.

That's KD's team. He's the reason you guys won. And will be the reason why you guys keep winning. KD has balls to take over a game unlike Stephanie curry


You seem to be the 1 with zero knowledge curry was just as important Durant to the Warriors winning. He avg 27 9 and 8. That's not just good that's all time great.

And it's not Durants team they actually play better when currys the driving force. They are equals.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 12:20 AM
You seem to be the 1 with zero knowledge curry was just as important Durant to the Warriors winning. He avg 27 9 and 8. That's not just good that's all time great.

And it's not Durants team they actually play better when currys the driving force. They are equals.

Stop saying they were equals. They clearly weren't considering nearly everyone said Durant was the best player on the Warriors. Does having Curry there help? Yeah, it does. But it was Durant who hit the clutch shots and not Curry. And don't let me remind you how bad Curry was compared to LeBron/KD in a few of this season's NBA Finals games. Game 2, he was below average. Game 3/4, he was bad and hardly an "equal" to KD.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-16-2017, 12:33 AM
Lol @ some of this nonsense. Wake me up when Curry wins a FMVP.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 12:48 AM
Lol @ some of this nonsense. Wake me up when Curry wins a FMVP.

Right, lmao. comparing him to Magic. Man, Magic+KD+Klay+Draymond and this guy here talking like Magic was Smush Parker.

COOLbeans
06-16-2017, 01:12 AM
It's dumb to compare greatness based on a finals MVP. Curry doesnt need that at this point , stop listening to the ESPN and watch the games as they play out.

Iggy was miraculous and is a great HOF player in his right, and Durant needed the MVP more this year and he went out and got it. Doesnt mean Steph isnt an alltime great player and it certainly doesnt demean his role as the undisputed leader of the Warriors.

valade16
06-16-2017, 01:12 AM
It's dumb to compare greatness based based on a finals MVP. Curry doesnt need that at this point. Iggy was miraculous and is a great HOF player in his right, and Durant needed the MVP more this year and he went out and got it. Doesnt mean Steph isnt an alltime great player and it certainly doesnt demean his role as the undisputed leader of the Warriors.

Nope.

Iggy > Steph
Worthy > Steph
Cedric Maxwell > Steph

Let me see that Finals MVP or you're a scrub!

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 01:18 AM
When you're comparing the greats, you have to split hairs. If it comes down to Finals performances (which is what they all play for), then yes, it does matter. LeBron doesn't even try in the regular season. Are we supposed to believe the regular season is the most legitimate barometer? And I honestly don't know why Valade makes these fallacy-like arguments. No one ever said what you're proposing. We're just saying, most players get tested in the biggest stages. Defenses get tighter and pressure increases. It just so happens Curry hasn't played well in those moments. Are we supposed to ignore that? What exactly are you proposing? That Curry can play ball? Okay, we agree. But we're supposed to treat him as an All-Time Great player - not some local basketball player in your park.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 01:19 AM
It's dumb to compare greatness based on a finals MVP. Curry doesnt need that at this point , stop listening to the ESPN and watch the games as they play out.

Iggy was miraculous and is a great HOF player in his right, and Durant needed the MVP more this year and he went out and got it. Doesnt mean Steph isnt an alltime great player and it certainly doesnt demean his role as the undisputed leader of the Warriors.

No, but it does mean he underperforms when it matters most. Does it not? Or does a meaningless game against the Sixers truly mean that much to you guys? I watched a maximum of like 100 NBA games this season. More than half were OKC and LeBron-games. I can tell you for a fact, regular season has never been more irrelevant. Teams bench and rest their players based on the weather.

valade16
06-16-2017, 01:22 AM
No, but it does mean he underperforms when it matters most. Does it not? Or does a meaningless game against the Sixers truly mean that much to you guys? I watched a maximum of like 100 NBA games this season. More than half were OKC and LeBron-games. I can tell you for a fact, regular season has never been more irrelevant. Teams bench and rest their players based on the weather.

Is it that he underperformed or that Iggy overperformed? You seem to think one can't happen without the other. Steph was fine in 2015, Iggy played incredible.

Worthy winning FMVP over Magic doesn't mean Magic underperformed, it simply means Worthy overperformed.

valade16
06-16-2017, 01:24 AM
When you're comparing the greats, you have to split hairs. If it comes down to Finals performances (which is what they all play for), then yes, it does matter. LeBron doesn't even try in the regular season. Are we supposed to believe the regular season is the most legitimate barometer? And I honestly don't know why Valade makes these fallacy-like arguments. No one ever said what you're proposing. We're just saying, most players get tested in the biggest stages. Defenses get tighter and pressure increases. It just so happens Curry hasn't played well in those moments. Are we supposed to ignore that? What exactly are you proposing? That Curry can play ball? Okay, we agree. But we're supposed to treat him as an All-Time Great player - not some local basketball player in your park.

Are the Finals the only thing that matters? What about when Curry outplayed KD heads up and came back down 3-1 to beat the Thunder last season. I guess that doesn't count because it wasn't in the Finals.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-16-2017, 01:32 AM
I love when people take things way out of context. Simple truth is that he's a notorious underperformer in the Finals, (the exception being this year, though it comes with the territory in having the best team ever.)

^ Wow no difference between the earlier rounds of Playoffs and the Finals? Huh.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 01:33 AM
Is it that he underperformed or that Iggy overperformed? You seem to think one can't happen without the other. Steph was fine in 2015, Iggy played incredible.

Worthy winning FMVP over Magic doesn't mean Magic underperformed, it simply means Worthy overperformed.

Both. Curry underperformed and Iggy overperformed. As for Worthy, I'll leave it to you to figure out why they called him "Big Game James." I never said a Finals MVP had to be a validation but it's 100% unacceptable for a player of Steph's caliber to have less of a perceived impact than Iguodala. Worthy won the Finals MVP because his game 7 performance was unbelievable. Magic could have very well gotten it as well but I think game 7 was a close game and ultimately, Worthy's impact was realized.

And I mentioned Finals. What happened in 2016?

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 01:38 AM
Are the Finals the only thing that matters? What about when Curry outplayed KD heads up and came back down 3-1 to beat the Thunder last season. I guess that doesn't count because it wasn't in the Finals.

Warriors were heavy favorites to win that series. They were also heavy favorites to win the Finals. They were down 3-1 to begin with because Curry sucked hard in those games. I never said it shouldn't count but they were precisely losing BECAUSE of Curry.. go check his performances. Did you even watch the games? Am I supposed to just ignore that he underperforms in the Finals - the series that 100% would agree is the one that truly matters? Where the BEST team usually plays against the OTHER best team? Stop putting words in my posts. I'm not hinting at any of what you're proposing. I notice you use strawman arguments often. We all see through it.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 01:40 AM
I love when people take things way out of context. Simple truth is that he's a notorious underperformer in the Finals, (the exception being this year, though it comes with the territory in having the best team ever.)

^ Wow no difference between the earlier rounds of Playoffs and the Finals? Huh.

The funny part is he says Curry came back from a 3-1 deficit when it was precisely his terrible gameplay that led to that deficit to begin with. Had Curry played an average "MVP" season game, they wouldn't have even been in that position. I guess he wants me to ignore all that and praise a 3-1 comeback when they were favorites to win the entire thing.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 01:44 AM
I'm also having trouble seeing how you don't understand what "splitting hairs" means. When LeBron lost in 2011, there were no excuses. He choked and played horrific. If Curry is as good as some of you say, he doesn't get judged by normality. When you have two consecutive back-to-back below average NBA Finals performances, then that means something. If you're Mario Chalmers, no one cares. Curry is no Mario Chalmers. He was "on his way" to being the best player in the league before LeBron came and put the hammer down. Again, are we judging these guys by "They can play ball because they are in the NBA and have won MVP's" or are we judging them by what they were ultimately able to accomplish by their OWN accord?

valade16
06-16-2017, 01:54 AM
I'm also having trouble seeing how you don't understand what "splitting hairs" means. When LeBron lost in 2011, there were no excuses. He choked and played horrific. If Curry is as good as some of you say, he doesn't get judged by normality. When you have two consecutive back-to-back below average NBA Finals performances, then that means something. If you're Mario Chalmers, no one cares. Curry is no Mario Chalmers. He was "on his way" to being the best player in the league before LeBron came and put the hammer down. Again, are we judging these guys by "They can play ball because they are in the NBA and have won MVP's" or are we judging them by what they were ultimately able to accomplish by their OWN accord?

This is the crux of our disagreement. If 26 PPG on 58.5 TS% with 6 Assists and 5 rebounds and 1.8 steals per game is below average, you can split hairs all you want, but that means he's really, really good.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:04 AM
This is the crux of our disagreement. If 26 PPG on 58.5 TS% with 6 Assists and 5 rebounds and 1.8 steals per game is below average, you can split hairs all you want, but that means he's really, really good.

1) Funny you didn't mention the turnovers - which puts Curry's AST/TO ratio to let's say, very low.
2) It was against bad opposition. The guy didn't have to play defense. He should have taken over the series. He didn't. Iguodala shouldn't have been Finals MVP but because Curry had an overall below average series, they had to give it to the only guy who stepped up.
3) Let's make it clear: It was below average for Stephen Curry in which he should have been above average due to a lack of opposition. Who exactly do you think I'm comparing him to? If LeBron's averages are 30/10/10 and all things being equal, he somehow averages 24/8/7, yes, that's "below average." It was a below average series for Curry in a series in which as I mentioned already, should have dominated. He wasn't chasing Kyrie around, was he? Like, c'mon. The guy had no reason to play the way he did WHATSOEVER. And that left the backdoor open for voters to see that Iguodala stepped up and had more impact in that he actually played above average and defended LeBron. In no way am I saying the Warriors would have won without Steph. I'm saying Warriors should have swept that Cavs team if Steph played by his own standards.

Again, when did I say he was bad? I'm comparing Stephen Curry to Stephen Curry and the Stephen Curry I saw in the regular season was not the one I saw in the Finals. It's about splitting hairs so that's even remotely why I bring it up. If the consensus is that he's a great basketball player, fine, I agree. So is DeRozan. But DeRozan chokes in the playoffs for some reason. Am I not supposed to consider that factor?

Actually, why not throw LeBron in here as well. Pre-Dallas series, could he play basketball? Sure. But the guy somehow found himself underperforming in a way no one recognized. By your logic, should we never take that into consideration when comparing LeBron? In the grand scheme of things, yeah, he's a top five NBA player ever. But at that moment, he was playing like a bottom five NBA superstar and it has to mean something.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:10 AM
Like I said ask a warriors fan. I live in the bay area, know hella warriors fan everybody in the bay knows that this is Stephs team and he's what makes this team go. Iggy even said it himself. Y'all are just misinformed by mainstream media

Cosigned. Steph is the engine that allows KD to shine at the right moments. The moments we need him most.

It's crazy to think of the potential these two could develop playing off each other. Curry really is something special, beyond his on court skills, he just completely gets people in their comfort zone and rhythm, he has no issue stepping back when need be and no stepping up when need be. I got a whole new level of respect for him after watching how this whole season played out. He is the epitome of team player

He has already changed the way players play the game, wouldn't be surprised if he also changes the way leaders lead their team.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:12 AM
Steph has no issue stepping back precisely because he is afraid of LeBron. Let's not get it twisted here. He was called the "babyface assassin" by pundits and they said he was "ice cold." Then when the Finals came along, he wasn't those things. He didn't "allow" KD to shine. It was simply the BEST option they had.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:13 AM
Steph has no issue stepping back precisely because he is afraid of LeBron. Let's not get it twisted here. He was called the "babyface assassin" by pundits and they said he was "ice cold." Then when the Finals came along, he wasn't those things. He didn't "allow" KD to shine. It was simply the BEST option they had.

Exactly. He knows what poison to pick and precisely when.

lmao, afraid! 😂😂

Believe me when he danced on lebron and put him on skates, he was thinking drive the whole way...statement layup :)

HandsOnTheWheel
06-16-2017, 02:18 AM
The funny part is he says Curry came back from a 3-1 deficit when it was precisely his terrible gameplay that led to that deficit to begin with. Had Curry played an average "MVP" season game, they wouldn't have even been in that position. I guess he wants me to ignore all that and praise a 3-1 comeback when they were favorites to win the entire thing.
Hurts his case if anything.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-16-2017, 02:20 AM
Exactly. He knows what poison to pick and precisely when.

lmao, afraid! 😂😂

Believe me when he danced on lebron and put him on skates, he was thinking drive the whole way...statement layup :)

Don't forget the double dribble statement he made on that drive either.

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:22 AM
1) Funny you didn't mention the turnovers - which puts Curry's AST/TO ratio to let's say, very low.
2) It was against bad opposition. The guy didn't have to play defense. He should have taken over the series. He didn't. Iguodala shouldn't have been Finals MVP but because Curry had an overall below average series, they had to give it to the only guy who stepped up.
3) Let's make it clear: It was below average for Stephen Curry in which he should have been above average due to a lack of opposition. Who exactly do you think I'm comparing him to? If LeBron's averages are 30/10/10 and all things being equal, he somehow averages 24/8/7, yes, that's "below average." It was a below average series for Curry in a series in which as I mentioned already, should have dominated. He wasn't chasing Kyrie around, was he? Like, c'mon. The guy had no reason to play the way he did WHATSOEVER. And that left the backdoor open for voters to see that Iguodala stepped up and had more impact in that he actually played above average and defended LeBron. In no way am I saying the Warriors would have won without Steph. I'm saying Warriors should have swept that Cavs team if Steph played by his own standards.

Again, when did I say he was bad? I'm comparing Stephen Curry to Stephen Curry and the Stephen Curry I saw in the regular season was not the one I saw in the Finals. It's about splitting hairs so that's even remotely why I bring it up. If the consensus is that he's a great basketball player, fine, I agree. So is DeRozan. But DeRozan chokes in the playoffs for some reason. Am I not supposed to consider that factor?

Actually, why not throw LeBron in here as well. Pre-Dallas series, could he play basketball? Sure. But the guy somehow found himself underperforming in a way no one recognized. By your logic, should we never take that into consideration when comparing LeBron? In the grand scheme of things, yeah, he's a top five NBA player ever. But at that moment, he was playing like a bottom five NBA superstar and it has to mean something.

Funny you didn't mention LeBron's shooting %'s...

It's weird that you're singling out Curry for underperforming that Finals series when it was actually the whole rest of his team (minus) Iggy who underperformed. Klay shot horribly. Dray shot horribly. Barnes shot badly. Livingston and Bogut did not score efficiently.

The only 2 players that series who scored efficiently were Curry and Iggy. Yet Curry is the focus of your ire? None of those guys should have had an abysmal shooting series. Curry that season averaged 23.8 PPG and in the Finals he averaged 26.0. He actually increased his PPG.

It seems what you're doing is comparing 2015 Finals Steph to 2016 regular season Steph and determining he fell short.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:25 AM
Exactly. He knows what poison to pick and precisely when.

lmao, afraid! 😂😂

Believe me when he danced on lebron and put him on skates, he was thinking drive the whole way...statement layup :)

It was a double-dribble and I rest my case with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py0-l1M_870

LeBron doesn't even respect Curry enough that he does this. When did LeBron do this to Kobe, Melo, Kawhi, or even KD? hell, could you imagine if LeBron did that to Kobe? Ain't no way Kobe gonna take it like a B.

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:26 AM
Steph has no issue stepping back precisely because he is afraid of LeBron. Let's not get it twisted here. He was called the "babyface assassin" by pundits and they said he was "ice cold." Then when the Finals came along, he wasn't those things. He didn't "allow" KD to shine. It was simply the BEST option they had.

If he's afraid of LeBron then by that logic KD is terrified of Curry lol

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:27 AM
Don't forget the double dribble statement he made on that drive either.

LeBron "crab dribble" James certainly can't complain about double dribbles lol

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:33 AM
Funny you didn't mention LeBron's shooting %'s...

It's weird that you're singling out Curry for underperforming that Finals series when it was actually the whole rest of his team (minus) Iggy who underperformed. Klay shot horribly. Dray shot horribly. Barnes shot badly. Livingston and Bogut did not score efficiently.

The only 2 players that series who scored efficiently were Curry and Iggy. Yet Curry is the focus of your ire? None of those guys should have had an abysmal shooting series. Curry that season averaged 23.8 PPG and in the Finals he averaged 26.0. He actually increased his PPG.

It seems what you're doing is comparing 2015 Finals Steph to 2016 regular season Steph and determining he fell short.

1) Notice how I said for Curry, "he had no reason to underperform." LeBron had reasons: He was playing with a depleted roster. I didn't mention LeBron's shooting % because it was obvious why his shooting % was lower. But he improved the other parts of his game such as rebounding/assists.

2) Curry was the MVP. Curry was a top five player. Curry will be viewed as a transcendent player. Yet, you want me to compare him to Bogut? LMAO, stop. Get real here for a second. No one cares about those stupid bench players. I'm talking about Curry. Stop deflecting. Do you see me bringing up Matthew Delly?

3) Curry averaged 23.8 PPG in the regular season and 26 in the Finals. Okay, go check the ACCURACY. For someone who uses advanced metrics to derive conclusions, you sure ignore them at your convenience. Funny you mention Curry's increase in PPG but don't do the same for LeBron's increase of over 11 points. But again, I don't care about an increase in PPG if it came as a result of a much lower efficiency. LeBron's case was simple: He had to score and due to the heavy load on him, his efficiency suffered. Curry doesn't have that case. There was no "heavy" load. He wasn't the one playing without Draymond and Klay the way LeBron didn't have Kyrie or Love. Curry didn't have to play defense where LeBron was the best defensive player in that series.

4) It seems what you're doing is again, putting words into my posts. It's getting annoying. Stop assuming what I'm doing so you can try and boost your argument. All I'm doing is saying Steph had two below average Finals by his own standards. If you're not willing to admit that, there is no discussion to be had.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:34 AM
If he's afraid of LeBron then by that logic KD is terrified of Curry lol

Could be. Must be why he ran to that team. They're both scared of LeBron.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:35 AM
LeBron "crab dribble" James certainly can't complain about double dribbles lol

When did LeBron complain about double dribbles regarding that play? See, again, you're confusing everyone by inserting words into their arguments. No one ever made such claim. Why do you insist on deflecting every argument into something they never made?

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:35 AM
Don't forget the double dribble statement he made on that drive either.

Was that before or after lebron grabbed a hold of his arm?

Oh that's right, one before, and one after, lol!

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:37 AM
Could be. Must be why he ran to that team. They're both scared of LeBron.

Yea, that's why KD brushed both shoulders off before busting that game winning three right in his face

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:38 AM
1) Notice how I said for Curry, "he had no reason to underperform." LeBron had reasons: He was playing with a depleted roster. I didn't mention LeBron's shooting % because it was obvious why his shooting % was lower. But he improved the other parts of his game such as rebounding/assists.

2) Curry was the MVP. Curry was a top five player. Curry will be viewed as a transcendent player. Yet, you want me to compare him to Bogut? LMAO, stop. Get real here for a second. No one cares about those stupid bench players. I'm talking about Curry. Stop deflecting. Do you see me bringing up Matthew Delly?

3) Curry averaged 23.8 PPG in the regular season and 26 in the Finals. Okay, go check the ACCURACY. For someone who uses advanced metrics to derive conclusions, you sure ignore them at your convenience. Funny you mention Curry's increase in PPG but don't do the same for LeBron's increase of over 11 points. But again, I don't care about an increase in PPG if it came as a result of a much lower efficiency. LeBron's case was simple: He had to score and due to the heavy load on him, his efficiency suffered. Curry doesn't have that case. There was no "heavy" load. He wasn't the one playing without Draymond and Klay the way LeBron didn't have Kyrie or Love. Curry didn't have to play defense where LeBron was the best defensive player in that series.

4) It seems what you're doing is again, putting words into my posts. It's getting annoying. Stop assuming what I'm doing so you can try and boost your argument. All I'm doing is saying Steph had two below average Finals by his own standards. If you're not willing to admit that, there is no discussion to be had.

You just put words in my mouth and claim you're annoyed I'm doing it to you? C'Mon man.

You claim Curry had no heavy load despite me showing you every other player but one on his team shot terribly. He carried the scoring load for them the whole series.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:39 AM
It was a double-dribble and I rest my case with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py0-l1M_870

LeBron doesn't even respect Curry enough that he does this. When did LeBron do this to Kobe, Melo, Kawhi, or even KD? hell, could you imagine if LeBron did that to Kobe? Ain't no way Kobe gonna take it like a B.

Actually, without a 13 pt lead, momentum, and less than 4 minutes left, lebron doesn't do that to curry either.


But I wouldn't expect you to understand what that even means..

Ironically, this is the exact play why curry danced on lebron :nod:

Do you understand what that means?

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:39 AM
Yea, that's why KD brushed both shoulders off before busting that game winning three right in his face

Yes, it's called a gang mentality. They both ganged up on LeBron but individually, they become betas. Sadly, I have more respect for Curry as a player than KD so it's entirely plausible KD may be the better player but a mentally weaker one.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:41 AM
Actually, without a 13 pt lead, momentum, and less than 4 minutes left, lebron doesn't do that to curry either.


But I wouldn't expect you to understand what that even means..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkm3LVYhInM&t=301s

There's an entire video dedicated to LeBron locking down Curry just for that Finals series and LeBron wasn't even guarding him full-time. The fact Curry didn't even say anything back was evidence the guy was willing to be subjected to it knowing damn well he couldn't do anything. I can't imagine Kobe just walking away. The thought of it would just change my view of Kobe as a player entirely.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:41 AM
Yes, it's called a gang mentality. They both ganged up on LeBron but individually, they become betas. Sadly, I have more respect for Curry as a player than KD so it's entirely plausible KD may be the better player but a mentally weaker one.

No, it's called I can bust that **** in your face whenever I feel like it and there's nothing you can do about it

You were pretty close tho.. ;)

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:42 AM
When did LeBron complain about double dribbles regarding that play? See, again, you're confusing everyone by inserting words into their arguments. No one ever made such claim. Why do you insist on deflecting every argument into something they never made?

When did I say he did? I just ate dinner with all the words you put in my mouth.

He said Curry double dribbled on that drive vs LeBron. I'm simply saying it's a pretty hollow complaint to say "he only scored because he doubled" against the guy who coined the term crab dribble to explain his doubling.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:43 AM
No, it's called I can bust that **** in your face whenever I feel like it and there's nothing you can do about it

You were pretty close tho.. ;)

So it took him going to the Warriors to finally be able to do that? That's called gang mentality. Why did I even entertain your post. You have zero substance. What's KD's record before joining the Warriors against LeBron? 4-18? Lmao, get real.

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:44 AM
Yes, it's called a gang mentality. They both ganged up on LeBron but individually, they become betas. Sadly, I have more respect for Curry as a player than KD so it's entirely plausible KD may be the better player but a mentally weaker one.

You have a funny way of showing respect lol.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkm3LVYhInM&t=301s

There's an entire video dedicated to LeBron locking down Curry just for that Finals series and LeBron wasn't even guarding him full-time. The fact Curry didn't even say anything back was evidence the guy was willing to be subjected to it knowing damn well he couldn't do anything. I can't imagine Kobe just walking away. The thought of it would just change my view of Kobe as a player entirely.

What does this have to do with what I said?

I got something too, curry hit 400 3's in a season! Yippee!!!

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:48 AM
You just put words in my mouth and claim you're annoyed I'm doing it to you? C'Mon man.

You claim Curry had no heavy load despite me showing you every other player but one on his team shot terribly. He carried the scoring load for them the whole series.

So now you're telling me Curry had the same type of roster LeBron had in 2015? If that's not what you're saying, you have no case. Curry had the better roster. He had no reason to underperform. His team has nothing to do with him performing bad. They weren't injured. If Kyrie plays bad, does that mean LeBron has an excuse to play bad? Give me a break.


When did I say he did? I just ate dinner with all the words you put in my mouth.

He said Curry double dribbled on that drive vs LeBron. I'm simply saying it's a pretty hollow complaint to say "he only scored because he doubled" against the guy who coined the term crab dribble to explain his doubling.

You just can't understand the point, despite its simplicity.

Literally a few posts ago from you:

"LeBron "crab dribble" James certainly can't complain about double dribbles lol"

Except, LeBron never complained. So why even bring that up? Did Curry double-dribble or not? He did. End of story. If it wasn't LeBron guarding him, would that not have been a double-dribble? I don't get your point.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:48 AM
So it took him going to the Warriors to finally be able to do that? That's called gang mentality. Why did I even entertain your post. You have zero substance. What's KD's record before joining the Warriors against LeBron? 4-18? Lmao, get real.

And what's his record after?

Umm, yea, KD a warrior now, it's been almost a year at this point...

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:49 AM
What does this have to do with what I said?

I got something too, curry hit 400 3's in a season! Yippee!!!

You got a video of Curry hitting 400 3's over LeBron? Because the video I showed is LeBron locking down Curry - and Curry looking helpless out there.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:50 AM
And what's his record after?

Umm, yea, KD a warrior now, it's been almost a year at this point...

So you proved my point; gang mentality. Wow, I think I'm losing brain cells "discussing" with you.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:51 AM
You got a video of Curry hitting 400 3's over LeBron? Because the video I showed is LeBron locking down Curry - and Curry looking helpless out there.

You don't get what I said. Lebron don't talk trash unless all those other things are in his favor

Yea, a non athletic point guard 5 inches shorter and 100 pounds lighter on a bum knee didn't light him up. Shocking

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:52 AM
So now you're telling me Curry had the same type of roster LeBron had in 2015? If that's not what you're saying, you have no case. Curry had the better roster. He had no reason to underperform. His team has nothing to do with him performing bad. They weren't injured. If Kyrie plays bad, does that mean LeBron has an excuse to play bad? Give me a break.

Literally a few posts ago from you:

"LeBron "crab dribble" James certainly can't complain about double dribbles lol"

Except, LeBron never complained. So why even bring that up? Did Curry double-dribble or not? He did. End of story. If it wasn't LeBron guarding him, would that not have been a double-dribble? I don't get your point.

First Bolded: Not at all what I said. Quit putting words in my mouth, it's getting annoying.

Second Bolded: The point is someone complaining that Curry doubled on a drive vs LeBron is stupid because LeBron doubles all the time. Remember this gem:

https://youtu.be/5AvM3-OY94o

The "it's not fair that's cheating" argument does not work if the person you're defending is not cheating...

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:53 AM
So you proved my point; gang mentality. Wow, I think I'm losing brain cells "discussing" with you.

Meaning what? What about lebron bringing over love? Gang mentality? uh...lol

My gang is better than your gang :nod:

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:53 AM
You don't get what I said. Lebron don't talk trash unless all those other things are in his favor

Yea, a non athletic point guard 5 inches shorter and 100 pounds lighter on a bum knee didn't light him up. Shocking

No, you don't get what I said. Why didn't Curry say something back? LeBron is literally all up on his face mocking him and Curry stands there and takes it. LeBron doesn't even trash talk. The fact he does it to Curry shows he knows Curry is an ice cream cone - soft as hell.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:54 AM
No, you don't get what I said. Why didn't Curry say something back? LeBron is literally all up on his face mocking him and Curry stands there and takes it. LeBron doesn't even trash talk. The fact he does it to Curry shows he knows Curry is an ice cream cone - soft as hell.

No, he talk trash cuz it was one of very few moments he could...

I didn't see him say **** this year ;) I wonder why that is..

Notice it was during a 20 pt lead again he tried to get in KD face? Haha, you don't even get it man, smh

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 02:59 AM
First Bolded: Not at all why I said. Quit putting words in my mouth, it's getting annoying.

Second Bolded: The point is someone complaining that Curry doubled on a drive vs LeBron is stupid because LeBron doubles all the time. Remember this gem:

https://youtu.be/5AvM3-OY94o

The "it's not fair that's cheating" argument does not work if the person you're defending is not cheating...

1) You're making arguments on my behalf without my signature. I said Curry had no reason to underperform because he had a roster that was fully healthy and not entirely dependent on him for every cause such as to assist, rebound, and score. LeBron led the series in rebounds, assists, and points. That's why he underperformed - because his team needed him to do everything. Curry didn't have to do everything. He was asked to score. And he did it below average by his OWN standard when the guy never had to play defense, rebound, or make plays. Some say Draymond is the best playmaker on that team.

2) The argument someone made was Curry could score on LeBron and "showed" him. The reasoning behind it was that Curry double-dribbled to get to that point. What LeBron did or doesn't do himself doesn't change the outcome of that play.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 03:01 AM
No, he talk trash cuz it was one of very few moments he could...

I didn't see him say **** this year ;) I wonder why that is..

Notice it was during a 20 pt lead again he tried to get in KD face? Haha, you don't even get it man, smh

Notice how LeBron never did it to:

Kobe, Duncan, Melo, Wade, Rose, Kawhi, T-Mac, PG, and a bunch of other guys. Notice how Curry just stood there like a butterfly and took it. Notice how LeBron didn't taunt KD after beating him in 2012 but did it in 2016 with all the Halloween decorations and T-Shirts. Admit it, LeBron treats Curry like a child. He respects his ability but he bullies him.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 03:04 AM
Notice how LeBron never did it to:

Kobe, Duncan, Melo, Wade, Rose, Kawhi, T-Mac, PG, and a bunch of other guys. Notice how Curry just stood there like a butterfly and took it. Notice how LeBron didn't taunt KD after beating him in 2012 but did it in 2016 with all the Halloween decorations and T-Shirts. Admit it, LeBron treats Curry like a child. He respects his ability but he bullies him.

Umm, have you never heard him speak on curry. Listen to him, and you might learn what respect is

He did everything he did because he never had anyone else threaten him as best player in the game. If curry isn't talked about as the best, he doesn't say anything

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 03:07 AM
Umm, have you never heard him speak on curry. Listen to him, and you might learn what respect is

He did everything he did because he never had anyone else threaten him as best player in the game. If curry isn't talked about as the best, he doesn't say anything

1) Yeah, he does it because he's respectful. But his in-game taunts is anything but.
2) Stephen A Smith actually said that players around the league - notably elite PG's, feel Curry gets away with everything. He'll score and taunt on you and then defensively, he'll have Klay guard you. So what most elite PG's are telling him is that Curry doesn't give the opposing PG the same opportunity to taunt Curry.

Take it as you want but anyone with an eye could see LeBron bullies Curry. That was the only time I ever saw LeBron disrespect a player on the court like that. And it's not because Curry is threatening him because he sure as hell didn't do it when Kobe/Wade/Durant were "threatening" him.

valade16
06-16-2017, 03:11 AM
1) You're making arguments on my behalf without my signature. I said Curry had no reason to underperform because he had a roster that was fully healthy and not entirely dependent on him for every cause such as to assist, rebound, and score. LeBron led the series in rebounds, assists, and points. That's why he underperformed - because his team needed him to do everything. Curry didn't have to do everything. He was asked to score. And he did it below average by his OWN standard when the guy never had to play defense, rebound, or make plays. Some say Draymond is the best playmaker on that team.

2) The argument someone made was Curry could score on LeBron and "showed" him. The reasoning behind it was that Curry double-dribbled to get to that point. What LeBron did or doesn't do himself doesn't change the outcome of that play.

His PPG went from 24 to 26 and his TS% went from 63% to 58.5% while leading or tying the Warriors in points every game but one while every other player on the team except Iggy shot terribly.

In why world is that underperforming? It's not like he became inefficient. He was still an efficient scorer (tied for the most efficient for the Warriors).

If his PPG had dropped significantly you'd have a point. If his TS% dropped so far he became inefficient, you'd have a point. If he wasn't the most prolific and most efficient scorer for the Warriors that series you'd have a point.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 03:14 AM
1) Yeah, he does it because he's respectful. But his in-game taunts is anything but.
2) Stephen A Smith actually said that players around the league - notably elite PG's, feel Curry gets away with everything. He'll score and taunt on you and then defensively, he'll have Klay guard you. So what most elite PG's are telling him is that Curry doesn't give the opposing PG the same opportunity to taunt Curry.

Take it as you want but anyone with an eye could see LeBron bullies Curry. That was the only time I ever saw LeBron disrespect a player on the court like that. And it's not because Curry is threatening him because he sure as hell didn't do it when Kobe/Wade/Durant were "threatening" him.

Ehh, none of those threats were real (Kobe don't belong on that list, he's the one who passed the torch)

Green called lebron a *****. Does that mean he doesn't respect him?

Cute SAS story

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 03:19 AM
His PPG went from 24 to 26 and his TS% went from 63% to 58.5% while leading or tying the Warriors in points every game but one while every other player on the team except Iggy shot terribly.

In why world is that underperforming? It's not like he became inefficient. He was still an efficient scorer (tied for the most efficient for the Warriors).

If his PPG had dropped significantly you'd have a point. If his TS% dropped so far he became inefficient, you'd have a point. If he wasn't the most prolific and most efficient scorer for the Warriors that series you'd have a point.

1) Underperform = perform less well than expected. Curry did that.
2) Wow, his PPG went up two points but he took more shots.. so again, efficiency matters here and there isn't a wide enough PPG increase to explain such a difference in efficiency.
3) Read #1. Even if I accept your argument for 2015, what about 2016?

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 03:23 AM
Ehh, none of those threats were real (Kobe don't belong on that list, he's the one who passed the torch)

Green called lebron a *****. Does that mean he doesn't respect him?

Cute SAS story

He kicks peoples nuts. Does it look like he respects anyone?

nastynice
06-16-2017, 03:28 AM
He kicks peoples nuts. Does it look like he respects anyone?

Sure, nice crack, but really..

jayjay33
06-16-2017, 05:51 AM
You seem to be the 1 with zero knowledge curry was just as important Durant to the Warriors winning. He avg 27 9 and 8. That's not just good that's all time great.

And it's not Durants team they actually play better when currys the driving force. They are equals.

Stop saying they were equals. They clearly weren't considering nearly everyone said Durant was the best player on the Warriors. Does having Curry there help? Yeah, it does. But it was Durant who hit the clutch shots and not Curry. And don't let me remind you how bad Curry was compared to LeBron/KD in a few of this season's NBA Finals games. Game 2, he was below average. Game 3/4, he was bad and hardly an "equal" to KD.


What? Did you even watch the games? Curry made several clutch shots. And they were equals, the Warriors play better when currys the driving force. That's a fact. Curry is just as important to the team as KD is. So you can try to spin it however you like in order discredit curry like he's some second rate Scottie pippen.

But 27 9 and 8 is an all time great finals performance and speaks for it self.

jayjay33
06-16-2017, 06:00 AM
I'm also having trouble seeing how you don't understand what "splitting hairs" means. When LeBron lost in 2011, there were no excuses. He choked and played horrific. If Curry is as good as some of you say, he doesn't get judged by normality. When you have two consecutive back-to-back below average NBA Finals performances, then that means something. If you're Mario Chalmers, no one cares. Curry is no Mario Chalmers. He was "on his way" to being the best player in the league before LeBron came and put the hammer down. Again, are we judging these guys by "They can play ball because they are in the NBA and have won MVP's" or are we judging them by what they were ultimately able to accomplish by their OWN accord?

What are you talking about. It's like you're just making this crap up.

Curry avg 26 6 snd 5 in 2015. He was obliviously hurt and limited to 2016. But he comes back in 2017 and avg 27 9 and 8. That's an all time great finals.

But by all means don't let the fact get in the way of your argument.

jayjay33
06-16-2017, 06:06 AM
If he's afraid of LeBron then by that logic KD is terrified of Curry lol

Could be. Must be why he ran to that team. They're both scared of LeBron.

Lol....wow. The hate is real.

jayjay33
06-16-2017, 06:11 AM
No, it's called I can bust that **** in your face whenever I feel like it and there's nothing you can do about it

You were pretty close tho.. ;)

So it took him going to the Warriors to finally be able to do that? That's called gang mentality. Why did I even entertain your post. You have zero substance. What's KD's record before joining the Warriors against LeBron? 4-18? Lmao, get real.

And Lebron completely fall apart in 2011. People grow and adversity forges mental toughness.

jayjay33
06-16-2017, 06:14 AM
And what's his record after?

Umm, yea, KD a warrior now, it's been almost a year at this point...

So you proved my point; gang mentality. Wow, I think I'm losing brain cells "discussing" with you.

Gang mentality? Just sounds like teammates who trust and believe in you. And who you know got your back.

Pretty sure that's just sports.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 06:39 AM
And Lebron completely fall apart in 2011. People grow and adversity forges mental toughness.

Yup, and he bounced back big time from it.

People forget how much more years and experience lebron had on these dubs when they first met in 2015. What Lebron was going through when he first got to Miami is what these guys had to go through last year. Its all part of growing as a player. Its why many people (myself included) feel that this is the best version of lebron, even tho he's lost a step compared to before.

Curry and KD both stepped up and grew a lot this post season

da ThRONe
06-16-2017, 08:21 AM
I don't know how much Durant and Curry has grown as players. Their path just was made incredibly easier joining forces. That's not necessarily proof of growth. There was less pressure on each other both mentally and physically.

Jamiecballer
06-16-2017, 08:27 AM
Stop putting words in my posts. I'm not hinting at any of what you're proposing. I notice you use strawman arguments often. We all see through it.
+1

It's really very irritating and it would be great if it stopped.


Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
06-16-2017, 08:38 AM
His PPG went from 24 to 26 and his TS% went from 63% to 58.5% while leading or tying the Warriors in points every game but one while every other player on the team except Iggy shot terribly.

In why world is that underperforming? It's not like he became inefficient. He was still an efficient scorer (tied for the most efficient for the Warriors).

If his PPG had dropped significantly you'd have a point. If his TS% dropped so far he became inefficient, you'd have a point. If he wasn't the most prolific and most efficient scorer for the Warriors that series you'd have a point.
Respect for this post because I think you are making good points and actually responding to what was said which is a welcome change.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

ewing
06-16-2017, 08:41 AM
I honestly can't take their individual statistics seriously. I mean, the one way to really bother Steph (hard and perfect traps to force turnovers and miscues) is all but eliminated because of KD's presence and ability. And KD's defense has been even better since his offensive load is much lower than it was in OKC. We saw his incredible defense in the 2016 playoffs but it came at the cost of his offense. Now, because his offense comes easy, he looks better than what he really is.

I mean, when has the league ever seen the 2nd and 3rd best player on the same team? Not to mention surrounding those two players with a DPOY caliber top 12'ish player in Draymond, and a lights out top 17'ish player in Klay.

We can praise them as probably the GOAT team but it's gonna take a LOT more time, years, and effort for me to start putting KD and Steph on all-time rankings. Their championships would be meaningless for me.

Do you take Bron's stats seriously or do they not count bc the Cavs basically punted defense this year so they could surround Bron with shooters and force other teams to down size with them so no was defending the basket?


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Jamiecballer
06-16-2017, 08:48 AM
I do find steph curry very difficult to place in history, because he literally broke the mold for traditional PG play. It was so much easier before this year. I'm rewatching the entire finals now, they score so easily... I can't figure out how impressive Curry's stat line is. This whole situation makes me uncomfortable as a basketball fan.

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JLynn943
06-16-2017, 09:48 AM
I do find steph curry very difficult to place in history, because he literally broke the mold for traditional PG play. It was so much easier before this year. I'm rewatching the entire finals now, they score so easily... I can't figure out how impressive Curry's stat line is. This whole situation makes me uncomfortable as a basketball fan.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

I don't know where he ranks yet, but people already having him top 5 are nuts. That's disrespectful to all of the incredible point guards the NBA has seen. Can Curry get there? He definitely has a shot. He has several years before he touches that though.

valade16
06-16-2017, 10:19 AM
+1

It's really very irritating and it would be great if it stopped.


Respect for this post because I think you are making good points and actually responding to what was said which is a welcome change.

Sorry I don't accept back handed compliments.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2017, 10:24 AM
Nope sorry you could be more wrong. Just like klay not making the all NBA team this year is a perfect example. Those guys were still great players they sacrificed individual success for rings with the lakers.

You can pretend those are just names if you want. But guys green and klay have a loooong way to go to match those names.








Nope sorry you could not be more wrong. Just like klay not making the all NBA team this year is a perfect example. Those guys were still great players they sacrificed individual success for rings with the lakers. And wilks made the all star team twice in la. Norm Nixon made it twice in that same time frame.


You can pretend those are just names if you want. But those guys were with out question among the best players in the league. They were loaded with HOF'ers and all stars. It's not even close.

If magic and Kareem got credit playing with them. Curry and Durant damn sure can for playing with klay, dray, and iggy. Lol

Wait, in one thread, you state, "you can't pay Klay for what he can do, but instead for what he is", and then you use, "those guys sacrificed their game to win rings with the Lakers".

See the problem there?

Fact is, McAdoo was nowhere near a top player when with the Lakers. Worthy and Wilkes are not top 50 players ever, I don't care who voted for what. Kareem, while still an awesome player in the early 80's, was not the Kareem that owned the 70's.

My point is, if you want to try and use evidence, the current Warriors have everything it needs to be put with anyone, anytime, anywhere, as far as "stacked".

So your defense of your point is this--wait for 15 years, and when the 4 guys who lead GS now are HOF'ers, along with Iggy, and we can arbitrarily point to David West as an "all star", now my point stands. Gotcha.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 10:52 AM
When did they play any "we gotta win this" games? They cakewalked through the entirety of the playoffs and blasted the Cavs for the majority of the series.

Just because they went 16-1 doesn't mean they didn't have any close games.

Game 2 was a bit of a beatdown but the Cavs were in it 'til the 4th. Who was it that kept the Dubs ahead? KD.

Games 3 was super close. Who was it that took over and won the game for the Dubs? KD.

Game 4 was a bit of a beatdown vs. the Dubs but KD was the one that kept them fighting. Steph had a horrendous game.

Game 5 the Cavs gave them everything they had, but it was KD that closed us out.

The person that halted our runs, that kept the Warriors in the game while we were winning was none other than KD.

Steph has a tendency to shoot crazy shots when the Warriors have a nice cushion, but he was deferring to Durant in the finals, no question about it.

It's KD's team and Steph seems to be okay with it.

valade16
06-16-2017, 10:57 AM
I don't know where he ranks yet, but people already having him top 5 are nuts. That's disrespectful to all of the incredible point guards the NBA has seen. Can Curry get there? He definitely has a shot. He has several years before he touches that though.

What PGs actually have his resume though?

Top 5 PGs by traditional stats:
Magic
Curry
Big O
West
Nash

Top 5 PGs by advanced stats
Magic
Curry
Big O
West
CP3

Most rings
Cousy 6
Magic 5
Isiah 2
Curry 2
Frazier 2

Most MVPs
Magic 3
Curry 2
Nash 2
Cousy 1
Rose 1


The only 2 PGs who appear on both lists are Magic and Curry.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 11:05 AM
Tyron Lue said it. Like y'all trying to argue with me and your point blank wrong.

The Golden State Warriors are Wardell Stephen Curry's team.

Tyronn Lue's strategy was to focus more on Curry, because he knew Curry would be more prone to turnovers and terrible decisions. We tried doubling KD off the PnR and we got torched every single time. It's just impossible to guard him.

You think that means Curry is the leader and all I see is the Lue acknowledging that there's nothing to be done vs. KD but there's a weakness that he could attempt to exploit with Curry.

The Warriors are KD's team and KD is better than Curry. Their offenses are a wash (maybe Curry is a bit more explosive) but KD's defense is much better than Curry's.

That's just how it is now, I don't see why people have something against it.

COOLbeans
06-16-2017, 11:18 AM
1) Yeah, he does it because he's respectful. But his in-game taunts is anything but.
2) Stephen A Smith actually said that players around the league - notably elite PG's, feel Curry gets away with everything. He'll score and taunt on you and then defensively, he'll have Klay guard you. So what most elite PG's are telling him is that Curry doesn't give the opposing PG the same opportunity to taunt Curry.

Take it as you want but anyone with an eye could see LeBron bullies Curry. That was the only time I ever saw LeBron disrespect a player on the court like that. And it's not because Curry is threatening him because he sure as hell didn't do it when Kobe/Wade/Durant were "threatening" him.

Youre literally taking the opinion of ESPN pundits (a multi billion dollar entertainment channel that drums up drama for ratings) and really running with that as fact :laugh2:

nastynice
06-16-2017, 11:48 AM
I don't know how much Durant and Curry has grown as players. Their path just was made incredibly easier joining forces. That's not necessarily proof of growth. There was less pressure on each other both mentally and physically.

Both players stepped up in the 4th when needed most. It's exactly what every dubs fan wanted to see

valade16
06-16-2017, 11:48 AM
Just because they went 16-1 doesn't mean they didn't have any close games.

Game 2 was a bit of a beatdown but the Cavs were in it 'til the 4th. Who was it that kept the Dubs ahead? KD.

Games 3 was super close. Who was it that took over and won the game for the Dubs? KD.

Game 4 was a bit of a beatdown vs. the Dubs but KD was the one that kept them fighting. Steph had a horrendous game.

Game 5 the Cavs gave them everything they had, but it was KD that closed us out.

The person that halted our runs, that kept the Warriors in the game while we were winning was none other than KD.

Steph has a tendency to shoot crazy shots when the Warriors have a nice cushion, but he was deferring to Durant in the finals, no question about it.

It's KD's team and Steph seems to be okay with it.

First Bolded: Incorrect. It was 67-66 at halftime. By the end of the 3rd quarter it had gone to a 102-88 Warriors lead. Here were KD and Curry's stats that quarter:

KD: 3/6 for 9 pts with 2 rebounds
Steph: 3/6 for 12 pts with 7 rebounds and 5 assists

Steph blew that game open with his play, not KD.

Second Bolded: Again incorrect. When Steph entered the game with 8:50 left in the 4th Korver hit a 3 and made it 102-108. From that point on here is their stats:

KD 3/6 for 6 pts, 2 rebounds and 1 assist
Curry 4/7 for 9 pts, 1 rebound and 2 assists

Those 2 assists? Both to KD for 2 of his 3 buckets. The play that ended the game was a defensive miscommunication by Cleveland where both defenders went to cover Curry they were so afraid of him shooting they left KD wide open and Steph threw the pass to the baseline for the easy slam. You attribute that to KD, but that play is 100% Steph and the attention he commands.

I give KD credit for his pull up 3 in Game 3 and for being the only Warrior who balled in Game 4. But no, KD did not carry the Warriors for the entirety of the series. Steph played better and put the game out of reach in both Game 2 and Game 5.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 11:54 AM
Tyronn Lue's strategy was to focus more on Curry, because he knew Curry would be more prone to turnovers and terrible decisions. We tried doubling KD off the PnR and we got torched every single time. It's just impossible to guard him.

You think that means Curry is the leader and all I see is the Lue acknowledging that there's nothing to be done vs. KD but there's a weakness that he could attempt to exploit with Curry.

The Warriors are KD's team and KD is better than Curry. Their offenses are a wash (maybe Curry is a bit more explosive) but KD's defense is much better than Curry's.

That's just how it is now, I don't see why people have something against it.

That's not what he said your just making **** up now. I think his exact quote was "KD can get off, he had 35 points, but Steph is the engine of that team, hes what makes them go" ask any warriors fan and they'll tell you the same thing. Your wrong dude argue all you want I think I know a little more about the warriors then you do

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 11:59 AM
Magic is ahead of Curry...for now

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 12:01 PM
KD to Steph "Your the engine of this team"

Lue "Steph is what makes the warriors go"

Y'all keep watching ESPN tho

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 12:15 PM
Let's do the stats test

Magic

19.5 PPG ~ 11.2 APG ~ 7.2 RPG ~ 1.9 SPG ~ 3.9 TOV ~ TS% .610

5 Rings
3 MVPs
12 ASG


Steph

22.8 PPG ~ 6.8 APG ~ 4.5 RPG ~ 1.8 SPG ~ 3.2 TOV ~ TS% 616

2 Rings
2 MVPS
4 ASG



In order for Curry to pass Magic he has to win another ring and play 5-6 more great years of ball

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 12:17 PM
Magic has 5 rings and 3 MVPs...

Wiki ****ing up

valade16
06-16-2017, 12:17 PM
Let's do the stats test

Magic

19.5 PPG ~ 11.2 APG ~ 7.2 RPG ~ 1.9 SPG ~ 3.9 TOV ~ TS% .610

2 Rings
2 MVPs
12 ASG


Steph

22.8 PPG ~ 6.8 APG ~ 4.5 RPG ~ 1.8 SPG ~ 3.2 TOV ~ .616

2 Rings
2 MVPS
4 ASG



In order for Curry to pass Magic he has to win another ring

Magic has 5 rings and 3 MVPs...

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 12:33 PM
First Bolded: Incorrect. It was 67-66 at halftime. By the end of the 3rd quarter it had gone to a 102-88 Warriors lead. Here were KD and Curry's stats that quarter:

KD: 3/6 for 9 pts with 2 rebounds
Steph: 3/6 for 12 pts with 7 rebounds and 5 assists

Steph blew that game open with his play, not KD.

Second Bolded: Again incorrect. When Steph entered the game with 8:50 left in the 4th Korver hit a 3 and made it 102-108. From that point on here is their stats:

KD 3/6 for 6 pts, 2 rebounds and 1 assist
Curry 4/7 for 9 pts, 1 rebound and 2 assists

Those 2 assists? Both to KD for 2 of his 3 buckets. The play that ended the game was a defensive miscommunication by Cleveland where both defenders went to cover Curry they were so afraid of him shooting they left KD wide open and Steph threw the pass to the baseline for the easy slam. You attribute that to KD, but that play is 100% Steph and the attention he commands.

I give KD credit for his pull up 3 in Game 3 and for being the only Warrior who balled in Game 4. But no, KD did not carry the Warriors for the entirety of the series. Steph played better and put the game out of reach in both Game 2 and Game 5.

I'll give you the first bolded but not the 2nd.

The Warriors were up by 10+ in the 3rd quarter and as the Cavs made their run, it was KD who put the Warriors on his back. Late in the 3rd it was Durant's 3 that put the lead up to 93-86, right when the Cavs were looking like they'd make it a game. Curry hadn't done anything in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter except make 4 free throws (one foul was a tacky call but oh well).

To start the 4th, the Cavs cut it down to 3 points. It was Durant who was responsible for 10 points in under 4 minutes to start the 4th (scored 7 and assisted for 3), while also pushing the lead back up to double digits. Curry came in and got a couple layups but it was when the game was already double digits. He hit a 3 with like 35 seconds left in the game over Kyrie to push it from an 11 point lead to a 14 point lead.

Sorry, but when the Cavs were making it a game it was Durant that shattered their hopes in game 5.

Again, the Cavs double Curry ONLY off the PnR because they know he's prone to causing turnovers. You cannot find me one play in the finals when the Cavs have doubled Stephen Curry where it wasn't a pick n roll or a simple overreaction/mistake in transition. It was never the gameplan. They've never, ever doubled him in open space.

The Cavs tried the exact same thing with Durant but he made us pay every single time. Trapping him is impossible because he's an underrated passer who makes very few mistakes and his length/height is just harder to defend.

We played 5 games in the series and it was Durant who was the best player for the Warriors, no matter how you wanna try to twist it.

valade16
06-16-2017, 12:43 PM
I'll give you the first bolded but not the 2nd.

The Warriors were up by 10+ in the 3rd quarter and as the Cavs made their run, it was KD who put the Warriors on his back. Late in the 3rd it was Durant's 3 that put the lead up to 93-86, right when the Cavs were looking like they'd make it a game. Curry hadn't done anything in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter except make 4 free throws (one foul was a tacky call but oh well).

To start the 4th, the Cavs cut it down to 3 points. It was Durant who was responsible for 10 points in under 4 minutes to start the 4th (scored 7 and assisted for 3), while also pushing the lead back up to double digits. Curry came in and got a couple layups but it was when the game was already double digits. He hit a 3 with like 35 seconds left in the game over Kyrie to push it from an 11 point lead to a 14 point lead.

Sorry, but when the Cavs were making it a game it was Durant that shattered their hopes in game 5.

Again, the Cavs double Curry ONLY off the PnR because they know he's prone to causing turnovers. You cannot find me one play in the finals when the Cavs have doubled Stephen Curry where it wasn't a pick n roll or a simple overreaction/mistake in transition. It was never the gameplan. They've never, ever doubled him in open space.

The Cavs tried the exact same thing with Durant but he made us pay every single time. Trapping him is impossible because he's an underrated passer who makes very few mistakes and his length/height is just harder to defend.

We played 5 games in the series and it was Durant who was the best player for the Warriors, no matter how you wanna try to twist it.

They don't double him because he's prone to TOs lol, they double him on PNR for the same reason every team doubles him on PNRs out to 30 ft., because if you don't he's going to torch you with 3 pointers. They aren't trying some special "mismatch" defense against Steph, they are doing the same thing every other team in the league does and for the same reason, because you simply cannot rely on one man to guard Steph off a PNR or he will crush you.

The overreaction/mistakes in transition are yet another example of Steph's importance. Throughout the majority of the series the Cavs were far more concerned with ensuring Steph doesn't get a shot in transition to the point where they'd run away from the rim to guard Steph even as KD was driving. Then when they tried (briefly) to switch it up and double KD he passed to a wide open Steph who drained 3's and the Cavs quickly decided they would rather live with KD driving and dunking then Steph shooting 3's.

How many of KD's points that series were dunks? The majority of those dunks were a result of the Cavs defense being more concerned with Steph. Yes, KD took advantage of those 1 on 1 situations and he gets full credit for that, but the only reason he was in those 1 on 1 situations was the Cavs decided they'd rather let KD go 1 on 1 then Steph.

I agree KD was the best player in the series, but it's not his team and he certainly hasn't been their best player long enough for me to say he's the unquestioned best player on the team. KD/Steph are both Top 4 players in the league and both are incredible. They are a dominant duo. Neither is Robin in this scenario.

tp13baby
06-16-2017, 12:43 PM
I'll agree with GS fans. Curry is the engine. I'm not saying he is the best player, but he is what makes that team tick. It's no surprise Cleveland won its game when Curry played poor. KD is more consistent but GS is at its best when Curry is feeling it. The only chance you have is hoping you lock Steph up a bit.

It may not be a great example, but Denver is one of the few teams to beat GS back to back years, and when we do, Steph performs bad. The games close he didn't perform great. Blow outs he was the best player on the floor. You have to contain him because his peak level of play in my opinion is arguably the best in the game, but nightly he usually shows he is about 3rd best in the game.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 12:46 PM
That's not what he said your just making **** up now. I think his exact quote was "KD can get off, he had 35 points, but Steph is the engine of that team, hes what makes them go" ask any warriors fan and they'll tell you the same thing. Your wrong dude argue all you want I think I know a little more about the warriors then you do

Dude, you're the one that's trying to interpret a quote without having the exact quote to fit your agenda. I think I know a little more about Tyronn Lue and his strategies than you do.

He said all playoffs that the Cavs goal is to exploit the weakness of the opponent. He trapped DeRozan inside the 3-point line, he trapped IT in the ECF. He tried trapping both KD and Steph in the finals and GAVE UP on attempting it vs. KD.

You're taking that to mean that the Cavs were scared of Curry more than they were of KD and so that means Curry is better, and I'm telling YOU that the Cavs were MORE scared of what KD would do to them if they trapped him, were resigned to KD getting his points because THERE'S NOTHING THEY CAN DO to stop him and shifted the focus onto guys they thought they had a chance to slow down.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 12:49 PM
I'll agree with GS fans. Curry is the engine. I'm not saying he is the best player, but he is what makes that team tick. It's no surprise Cleveland won its game when Curry played poor. KD is more consistent but GS is at its best when Curry is feeling it. The only chance you have is hoping you lock Steph up a bit.

It may not be a great example, but Denver is one of the few teams to beat GS back to back years, and when we do, Steph performs bad. The games close he didn't perform great. Blow outs he was the best player on the floor. You have to contain him because his peak level of play in my opinion is arguably the best in the game, but nightly he usually shows he is about 3rd best in the game.

Thank you for having ears

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 12:51 PM
Dude, you're the one that's trying to interpret a quote without having the exact quote to fit your agenda. I think I know a little more about Tyronn Lue and his strategies than you do.

He said all playoffs that the Cavs goal is to exploit the weakness of the opponent. He trapped DeRozan inside the 3-point line, he trapped IT in the ECF. He tried trapping both KD and Steph in the finals and GAVE UP on attempting it vs. KD.

You're taking that to mean that the Cavs were scared of Curry more than they were of KD and so that means Curry is better, and I'm telling YOU that the Cavs were MORE scared of what KD would do to them if they trapped him, were resigned to KD getting his points because THERE'S NOTHING THEY CAN DO to stop him and shifted the focus onto guys they thought they had a chance to slow down.

Your the one taking it out of context I'm giving you the actually quote.

Iggy said it's Curry's team
KD said it's Curry's team
Anybody in the bay will tell you it's Curry's team

Your wrong it's that simple.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 12:52 PM
I'm telling you I'm not biased I'm not that type of person I call it how I see it. I think KD is a all around more complete player but this is why I think Curry is still in the debate for best in the game rn is because he has so much affect on the game. Numbers don't do justice to how he impacts a game.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 12:55 PM
There's a good chance curry passes Jordan on rings to

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 01:09 PM
Your the one taking it out of context I'm giving you the actually quote.

Iggy said it's Curry's team
KD said it's Curry's team
Anybody in the bay will tell you it's Curry's team

Your wrong it's that simple.

IDC if the whole Bay area say it's Curry's team - the games I watched showed it's KD's team. Maybe it'll take GS awhile to make that adjustment and their fans a lot longer but it is what it is. He outperformed Curry in the finals, he's the better player, and he's the one that made the biggest difference vs. the Cavs. Time will adjust to it.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 01:10 PM
I'm telling you I'm not biased I'm not that type of person I call it how I see it. I think KD is a all around more complete player but this is why I think Curry is still in the debate for best in the game rn is because he has so much affect on the game. Numbers don't do justice to how he impacts a game.

Curry is not a better player than KD and he's certainly not better than LeBron. You're completely ignoring one side of the ball as well.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 01:15 PM
They don't double him because he's prone to TOs lol, they double him on PNR for the same reason every team doubles him on PNRs out to 30 ft., because if you don't he's going to torch you with 3 pointers. They aren't trying some special "mismatch" defense against Steph, they are doing the same thing every other team in the league does and for the same reason, because you simply cannot rely on one man to guard Steph off a PNR or he will crush you.

The overreaction/mistakes in transition are yet another example of Steph's importance. Throughout the majority of the series the Cavs were far more concerned with ensuring Steph doesn't get a shot in transition to the point where they'd run away from the rim to guard Steph even as KD was driving. Then when they tried (briefly) to switch it up and double KD he passed to a wide open Steph who drained 3's and the Cavs quickly decided they would rather live with KD driving and dunking then Steph shooting 3's.

How many of KD's points that series were dunks? The majority of those dunks were a result of the Cavs defense being more concerned with Steph. Yes, KD took advantage of those 1 on 1 situations and he gets full credit for that, but the only reason he was in those 1 on 1 situations was the Cavs decided they'd rather let KD go 1 on 1 then Steph.

I agree KD was the best player in the series, but it's not his team and he certainly hasn't been their best player long enough for me to say he's the unquestioned best player on the team. KD/Steph are both Top 4 players in the league and both are incredible. They are a dominant duo. Neither is Robin in this scenario.

Strongly disagree with the bolded. The regular season and how teams defended him then is largely irrelevant to the playoffs.

All the deadliest players in the history of the game will hurt you far more if you double them than if you don't. The best defense against LeBron is to stick your best defender on him and HOPE. Double LeBron as a regular part of your strategy and he'll annihilate you. The Cavs tried doubling Durant and it failed so badly that they decided the best/safest way to defend him is to stick their best defender on him and HOPE. They'd rather stick RJ on him and live with the results than double.

The Cavs were content with letting Kyrie guard Steph as they had done in last year's finals, and the only time they double Steph is off the PnR or off-ball screens.

As for KD's dunks, lol the credit goes to KD for being able to punish the Cavs in transition and make the right play. Look at game 1 again, the cavs were scrambling to stop the transition 3 with KLAY THOMPSON as much as they were doing it to stop Curry from having an open 3. You're giving all that credit to Curry and not realizing that the Cavs respected Klay's 3's just as much and he was having a DOWN playoffs.

Yeah, neither is Robin right now out in the open or in the forefront but the game speaks for itself. KD is the better player and he's the #1 guy on that team and Steph defers to him a ton.

valade16
06-16-2017, 01:33 PM
Strongly disagree with the bolded. The regular season and how teams defended him then is largely irrelevant to the playoffs.

All the deadliest players in the history of the game will hurt you far more if you double them than if you don't. The best defense against LeBron is to stick your best defender on him and HOPE. Double LeBron as a regular part of your strategy and he'll annihilate you. The Cavs tried doubling Durant and it failed so badly that they decided the best/safest way to defend him is to stick their best defender on him and HOPE. They'd rather stick RJ on him and live with the results than double.

The Cavs were content with letting Kyrie guard Steph as they had done in last year's finals, and the only time they double Steph is off the PnR or off-ball screens.

As for KD's dunks, lol the credit goes to KD for being able to punish the Cavs in transition and make the right play. Look at game 1 again, the cavs were scrambling to stop the transition 3 with KLAY THOMPSON as much as they were doing it to stop Curry from having an open 3. You're giving all that credit to Curry and not realizing that the Cavs respected Klay's 3's just as much and he was having a DOWN playoffs.

Yeah, neither is Robin right now out in the open or in the forefront but the game speaks for itself. KD is the better player and he's the #1 guy on that team and Steph defers to him a ton.

Not a single team in the playoffs has NOT hedged and doubled Steph on the PNR. None. Simply put you HAVE to go over any screen out to 30 ft. on him and have your Big stay there to box him in and not give him room before rotating away.

This isn't some strategy unique to the Cavs, it's literally the only way to play Steph and have a chance.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 01:42 PM
Not a single team in the playoffs has NOT hedged and doubled Steph on the PNR. None. Simply put you HAVE to go over any screen out to 30 ft. on him and have your Big stay there to box him in and not give him room before rotating away.

This isn't some strategy unique to the Cavs, it's literally the only way to play Steph and have a chance. Like... have you even been watching the Warriors the last 2 years? lol

Absolutely, I watched them torch Portland last year while Curry lit them up with his 'phantom' injury, and I watched OKC use their length to bother him, and of course the finals.

I never once said it was a strategy unique to the Cavs - where did I say that? What exactly are you reading?

Notice how you said "it's literally the only way to play Steph and have a chance"

My entire point that you seem to be whiffing on is there's absolutely no chance to double/trap Durant. There's no chance - nothing. You CAN defend Steph successfully if you execute the trap successfully, but you absolutely CANNOT defend Durant successfully. You just have to hope he misses. That's why you see a coach like Ty Lue (referencing the monta dude who can't seem to understand it) scheming vs. Curry because it's possible to affect him and make him play badly whereas you can't do that at all with Durant. Just throw a hand up and hope he misses.

If Steph started abusing traps the way KD and LeBron does, guess what would happen on the PnR? Teams would just switch and live with the result. That's ALL you can do vs. Durant right now because if you trap him off the PnR he'll eat you alive - something we can't say with certainty that Curry would do.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 01:43 PM
Not a single team in the playoffs has NOT hedged and doubled Steph on the PNR. None. Simply put you HAVE to go over any screen out to 30 ft. on him and have your Big stay there to box him in and not give him room before rotating away.

This isn't some strategy unique to the Cavs, it's literally the only way to play Steph and have a chance.

So what your saying is the only way to stop Steph is to play 3 on 4 and hope someone misses an open 3.

How many times a game do two people jump out on curry off a screen and someone gets an open layup

These are things he gets no credit for, cause they don't show up in the stat sheet.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 01:45 PM
In all reality Curry is probably responsible for an additional 10-15 points a game that he doesn't get credit for. That's why the Warriors play there best when Curry is on, which is what ty Lue said, which is what warriors fans know, which other people don't know, hence why I'm posting this.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 01:47 PM
Bro all you have to do is go back and watch the ty Lue interview you have it all ****ed up. That's not what ty Lue said at all. He said stopping curry is the key to stopping the warriors. He never said it's easier to stop Steph than KD, never said that again making things up.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 01:50 PM
So what your saying is the only way to stop Steph is to play 3 on 4 and hope someone misses an open 3.

How many times a game do two people jump out on curry off a screen and someone gets an open layup

These are things he gets no credit for, cause they don't show up in the stat sheet.

It's called RPM. He gets credit for his impact - but RPM alone doesn't determine who the better player is.

There's also hockey assists and Steph is at the top of those.

Steph does have more gravity than KD - I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. He's the best 3-point shooter in the history of the game with a lightning quick release - that combination is why he has so much gravity. But that doesn't mean he's the best player - you're ignoring key aspects of the game if you truly believe that.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 01:51 PM
How do you abuse traps? What does that even mean? You get trapped you pass out of it or split the double team, which is almost impossible. Curry forces double teams out to 30ft making the other team play 3 on 4 nobody in the history of the game has ever done that. The only player that comes to mind is Shaq in terms of dominance. Curry dominates the games it's just different than your used to seeing and you don't understand all the things he's actually responsible for.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 01:53 PM
It's called RPM. He gets credit for his impact - but RPM alone doesn't determine who the better player is.

There's also hockey assists and Steph is at the top of those.

Steph does have more gravity than KD - I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. He's the best 3-point shooter in the history of the game with a lightning quick release - that combination is why he has so much gravity. But that doesn't mean he's the best player - you're ignoring key aspects of the game if you truly believe that.

It doesn't mean he's the most skilled player. But it does mean he has the most impact on the game, which is kind of the definition of best player right? Cmon man it's not to hard to understand.

Vee rex I'mma do a post just for you you better respond cause I'mma put some effort into it

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 01:57 PM
Bro all you have to do is go back and watch the ty Lue interview you have it all ****ed up. That's not what ty Lue said at all. He said stopping curry is the key to stopping the warriors. He never said it's easier to stop Steph than KD, never said that again making things up.

But but but... Lue is just a puppet and LeBron is the coach/GM/owner!!!

Like I said, Lue has said more than once THROUGHOUT THESE PLAYOFFS that the chief strategy the Cavs implement is to target the opponent's weakness and exploit it, even at the cost of sacrificing points elsewhere. I have not bothered to search for the interview for it but I will if it will get you to concede that point, otherwise it would be a waste of time for me.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 01:57 PM
"KD can get off, he had 35 points, but Steph is the engine of that team, hes what makes them go"

That pretty much sums it up right there

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 02:00 PM
Vee Rex, I agree with you that Curry might not be the most skilled player or overall most complete etc. What I'm saying is that Curry has way more impact on the game than KD does. Steph drops 35 there's no chance the Warriors lose, KD drops 35 we lose by 20+.

When Curry is in the P&R and he gets doubled, he gives it up to Draymond and we're playing 4 on 3. The other team would rather play handicapped than give up a Curry 3. Cmon that ridiculous.

When Curry runs in transition the gravity he has is insane. Just look at game 1 of the finals.

When Curry runs off screens he draws two defenders a solid amount of the times getting whoever set the screen a wide open layup.

These things happen game in and game out. Like you said Curry led the league in hockey assist and it wasn't even close. I think he has over 4 a game and the next best is like 1.5 or something.

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:01 PM
Absolutely, I watched them torch Portland last year while Curry lit them up with his 'phantom' injury, and I watched OKC use their length to bother him, and of course the finals.

I never once said it was a strategy unique to the Cavs - where did I say that? What exactly are you reading?

Notice how you said "it's literally the only way to play Steph and have a chance"

My entire point that you seem to be whiffing on is there's absolutely no chance to double/trap Durant. There's no chance - nothing. You CAN defend Steph successfully if you execute the trap successfully, but you absolutely CANNOT defend Durant successfully. You just have to hope he misses. That's why you see a coach like Ty Lue (referencing the monta dude who can't seem to understand it) scheming vs. Curry because it's possible to affect him and make him play badly whereas you can't do that at all with Durant. Just throw a hand up and hope he misses.

If Steph started abusing traps the way KD and LeBron does, guess what would happen on the PnR? Teams would just switch and live with the result. That's ALL you can do vs. Durant right now because if you trap him off the PnR he'll eat you alive - something we can't say with certainty that Curry would do.

Teams tried that and the result was so devastating they quickly abandoned that. Curry's 3pt shooting ability is so unique you simply cannot play him one on one and live with the result. He's perhaps the most uniquely influencing player in NBA history beside Shaq. Nobody is living with the result vs Steph because it's an auto loss.

It's like your entire opinion of KD was formed from the last 5 games. Teams can't defend KD? Hogwash.

KD shot 12/31 (3/11 from 3) in Game 5 and 10/31 (1/8 from 3) in Game 6 just last season to blow a 3-1 lead.

People have said in this thread the only reason the Warriors were down 3-1 in the first place was Curry played bad, but KD did not play for the majority of that series. He went 10/30 in their Game 1 win and in Game 4 when Steph had his only truly terrible game of the series shooting wise (6/20 for 19 pts) KD wasn't fairing much better going 8/24 for 26 pts.

I guess GS must have prayed real hard that series because God is the only way KD could play bad, and he certainly wasn't affected in the slightest by the Warrior's D because there's no way to stop KD.

The idea that KD can't be stopped is a laughably short sighted view from 5 games. We have proof from literally the last season that he can indeed be stopped and forced into bad games. The biggest difference is he's now playing for the team that forced him into bad plays rather than against it.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 02:02 PM
It doesn't mean he's the most skilled player. But it does mean he has the most impact on the game, which is kind of the definition of best player right? Cmon man it's not to hard to understand.

Vee rex I'mma do a post just for you you better respond cause I'mma put some effort into it

No, that's not the definition of best player. Unless you want to admit that Chris Paul is better than Steph, or admit that Draymond is better than Kawhi, or admit that Jokic is better than Westbrook, or admit that Westbrook is better than Durant, or admit that Kevin Love is better than Harden and Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins, etc...

The list goes on. Having a huge impact is a result of an individual's dominance in a particular aspect of basketball, along with a myriad of other factors such as teammates roles within the system the team implements, teammates abilities to perform in their roles, and overall implementation of an individual into that system.

Draymond has a bigger impact for the Warriors than KD but you'd be insane to believe he's a better player.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 02:03 PM
But but but... Lue is just a puppet and LeBron is the coach/GM/owner!!!

Like I said, Lue has said more than once THROUGHOUT THESE PLAYOFFS that the chief strategy the Cavs implement is to target the opponent's weakness and exploit it, even at the cost of sacrificing points elsewhere. I have not bothered to search for the interview for it but I will if it will get you to concede that point, otherwise it would be a waste of time for me.

Except that's not a weakness. You literally don't have a choice. You either double Steph or watch him clown your bigs all game long. And he's gonna make the right basketball play if he gets doubled.

That's why at the end of game 5 the warriors FINALLY ran a Steph KD P&R which they never did during the regular season or playoffs. Because you want to double Steph alright here deal with KD then. And look what KD did, had the most effective finals maybe in history.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 02:06 PM
My definition of impact is different than yours. I'm talking about impacting wins and losses. Impacting the level of your teammates. The players you names don't make players around them better.

Basically thats my point. Stats alone no Curry is not the best on the warriors or in the world. But overall impact on wins and losses and how much better he makes his teammates compared to the rest of the league, definitely the best on the warriors. In conversation for best in the world.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 02:10 PM
No, that's not the definition of best player. Unless you want to admit that Chris Paul is better than Steph, or admit that Draymond is better than Kawhi, or admit that Jokic is better than Westbrook, or admit that Westbrook is better than Durant, or admit that Kevin Love is better than Harden and Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins, etc...

The list goes on. Having a huge impact is a result of an individual's dominance in a particular aspect of basketball, along with a myriad of other factors such as teammates roles within the system the team implements, teammates abilities to perform in their roles, and overall implementation of an individual into that system.

Draymond has a bigger impact for the Warriors than KD but you'd be insane to believe he's a better player.

That's so dumb


Andrew Wiggins would be considered ​better than Dray, Kyrie Irving etc when there not. Are they more skilled yes. But the impact they have on the game doesn't even compare to dray.

I don't know why that's so difficult for you to understand

da ThRONe
06-16-2017, 02:10 PM
Both players stepped up in the 4th when needed most. It's exactly what every dubs fan wanted to see

This while true doesn't address my concerns about their individual growth as players. Was that success due to internal growth or just having so much firepower teams couldn't expose their respective weaknesses?

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 02:12 PM
You think of the best basketball player as who has the most points rebounds assist...I look at it like who has the most impact who helps there team win the most. I'm about wins **** #s

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 02:28 PM
Teams tried that and the result was so devastating they quickly abandoned that. Curry's 3pt shooting ability is so unique you simply cannot play him one on one and live with the result. He's perhaps the most uniquely influencing player in NBA history beside Shaq. Nobody is living with the result vs Steph because it's an auto loss.

It's like your entire opinion of KD was formed from the last 5 games. Teams can't defend KD? Hogwash.

KD shot 12/31 (3/11 from 3) in Game 5 and 10/31 (1/8 from 3) in Game 6 just last season to blow a 3-1 lead.

People have said in this thread the only reason the Warriors were down 3-1 in the first place was Curry played bad, but KD did not play for the majority of that series. He went 10/30 in their Game 1 win and in Game 4 when Steph had his only truly terrible game of the series shooting wise (6/20 for 19 pts) KD wasn't fairing much better going 8/24 for 26 pts.

I guess GS must have prayed real hard that series because God is the only way KD could play bad, and he certainly wasn't affected in the slightest by the Warrior's D because there's no way to stop KD.

The idea that KD can't be stopped is a laughably short sighted view from 5 games. We have proof from literally the last season that he can indeed be stopped and forced into bad games. The biggest difference is he's now playing for the team that forced him into bad plays rather than against it.

Lol no they haven't. The Thunder did it quite well in last year's WCF. Even TT does quite well defending Curry on the switch. Curry's a superstar so he's gonna score and sometimes there's nothing you can do about it but you're getting extremely caught up on a few big-time plays Curry has made on the switch and ignoring the times where good perimeter defending bigs have done well against him.

Teams successfully defend Curry when going small, because they're able to switch smaller defenders on him. Boston has had a TON of success vs. the Warriors the times they've played them, because they have put the likes of AB, Smart, and Crowder on him and were able to switch successfully with one onto him.

Wtf are you talking about teams can't defend him one on one and live with the result? Have you seen Avery Bradley defend that dude? It's why they spanked the Warriors in Oracle on March 9th (incidentally without KD!!!). Bradley defended him one-on-one, denied him screens with his body positioning and hounded him all night. Steph got ate alive by AB.

You're warped if you believe that you simply cannot play him one on one. If that were the case why didn't he torch Kyrie in last year's finals? Kyrie is a worse defender than Westbrook. Curry feeds off the PnR action as long as it frees him up for an open shot or causes the defense to screw up or give him a nice lane to the basket. He feeds off mismatches if the defender isn't fast enough to keep up with him.

Maybe it's because you're so used to watching him torch the ****** perimeter defenders on the Blazers but he's absolutely not unguardable in the same manner KD is.

My opinion of KD was formed from the entire year. He rarely has bad games when in GS's system. Are you seriously cherry-picking a few games to make your point when he played in a system surrounded by guys that couldn't shoot? How well do you think Steph would've done if he was surrounded by those players? If you're gonna compare them then compare them in the same system.

KD averages 23/8/3 on 50% shooting and 2 turnovers IN GS's LOSSES. That's freaking incredible. Whereas he averages 26/8/5 on 55% shooting and 2 turnovers in their WINS.

Whereas Steph averaged 24/6/5 on 42% shooting and 4 turnovers in their losses. And averages 26/7/4 on 48% shooting and 3 turnovers in their wins.

KD is absolutely more unguardable than Steph and he's a better defender. He's the best player.

mngopher35
06-16-2017, 02:31 PM
I honestly thought a lot more people would prop up Durant due to the finals tbh.

I agree steph is the engine and most important (gravity) player on the team.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 02:34 PM
My definition of impact is different than yours. I'm talking about impacting wins and losses. Impacting the level of your teammates. The players you names don't make players around them better.

Basically thats my point. Stats alone no Curry is not the best on the warriors or in the world. But overall impact on wins and losses and how much better he makes his teammates compared to the rest of the league, definitely the best on the warriors. In conversation for best in the world.

LMAO you're twisting and contorting every which way since I'm proving you wrong. KD has a higher WS/48 in both the regular season and playoffs than Stephen Curry.

Curry has a higher RPM and it's a reflection of his impact, which is freaking incredible. But higher impact doesn't mean he's the better player although I think you're silly for believing that (because you clearly don't believe Kevin Love is better than James Harden and Anthony Davis) I'm even more astounded that you're unaware of how you're contradicting yourself.

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:40 PM
Lol no they haven't. The Thunder did it quite well in last year's WCF. Even TT does quite well defending Curry on the switch. Curry's a superstar so he's gonna score and sometimes there's nothing you can do about it but you're getting extremely caught up on a few big-time plays Curry has made on the switch and ignoring the times where good perimeter defending bigs have done well against him.

Teams successfully defend Curry when going small, because they're able to switch smaller defenders on him. Boston has had a TON of success vs. the Warriors the times they've played them, because they have put the likes of AB, Smart, and Crowder on him and were able to switch successfully with one onto him.

Wtf are you talking about teams can't defend him one on one and live with the result? Have you seen Avery Bradley defend that dude? It's why they spanked the Warriors in Oracle on March 9th (incidentally without KD!!!). Bradley defended him one-on-one, denied him screens with his body positioning and hounded him all night. Steph got ate alive by AB.

You're warped if you believe that you simply cannot play him one on one. If that were the case why didn't he torch Kyrie in last year's finals? Kyrie is a worse defender than Westbrook. Curry feeds off the PnR action as long as it frees him up for an open shot or causes the defense to screw up or give him a nice lane to the basket. He feeds off mismatches if the defender isn't fast enough to keep up with him.

Maybe it's because you're so used to watching him torch the ****** perimeter defenders on the Blazers but he's absolutely not unguardable in the same manner KD is.

My opinion of KD was formed from the entire year. He rarely has bad games when in GS's system. Are you seriously cherry-picking a few games to make your point when he played in a system surrounded by guys that couldn't shoot? How well do you think Steph would've done if he was surrounded by those players? If you're gonna compare them then compare them in the same system.

KD averages 23/8/3 on 50% shooting and 2 turnovers IN GS's LOSSES. That's freaking incredible. Whereas he averages 26/8/5 on 55% shooting and 2 turnovers in their WINS.

Whereas Steph averaged 24/6/5 on 42% shooting and 4 turnovers in their losses. And averages 26/7/4 on 48% shooting and 3 turnovers in their wins.

KD is absolutely more unguardable than Steph and he's a better defender. He's the best player.

Ironic when your example of Curry being guarded one on one is a single game in the regular season lol.

By the way, last season he shot a combined 14/27 from deep and scored 38 and 29 points. Boston clearly hasn't found a fool proof way to stop Curry...

As for last year's Finals... The Cavs hedged and doubled Curry on every PNR, once the roller moved out the double man left Curry and he was one on one. Find me footage of a Curry pick and roll where they don't hedge with the big man.


So what you're saying is Durant plays good and they win or lose but when Curry plays bad they lose and when he plays good they win... and this is proof against Curry? Very odd. If anything that seems to support the notion Monta/Nastynice/every GS fan/Tyronn Lue/KD/Green (really, everyone but you) say: that Curry is the engine that makes the Warriors go.

If KD doing good doesn't have as much affect as Curry doing good on the fortune of the Warriors, well there's your answer isn't there?

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 02:43 PM
I honestly thought a lot more people would prop up Durant due to the finals tbh.

I agree steph is the engine and most important (gravity) player on the team.

I'm cool with that - as I've mentioned Steph's gravity numerous times already.

But he's not the best player in the league and he's not the best player on the Warriors. It's like people are completely ignoring defense by suggesting otherwise.

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:43 PM
LMAO you're twisting and contorting every which way since I'm proving you wrong. KD has a higher WS/48 in both the regular season and playoffs than Stephen Curry.

Curry has a higher RPM and it's a reflection of his impact, which is freaking incredible. But higher impact doesn't mean he's the better player although I think you're silly for believing that (because you clearly don't believe Kevin Love is better than James Harden and Anthony Davis) I'm even more astounded that you're unaware of how you're contradicting yourself.

You can't laugh off RPM because it has certain players ahead of others that you consider silly and then use WS/48, unless you believe Javale McGee is better than LeBron James lol

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 02:46 PM
Ironic when your example of Curry being guarded one on one is a single game in the regular season lol.

By the way, last season he shot a combined 14/27 from deep and scored 38 and 29 points. Boston clearly hasn't found a fool proof way to stop Curry...

As for last year's Finals... The Cavs hedged and doubled Curry on every PNR, once the roller moved out the double man left Curry and he was one on one. Find me footage of a Curry pick and roll where they don't hedge with the big man.


So what you're saying is Durant plays good and they win or lose but when Curry plays bad they lose and when he plays good they win... and this is proof against Curry? Very odd. If anything that seems to support the notion Monta/Nastynice/every GS fan/Tyronn Lue/KD/Green (really, everyone but you) say: that Curry is the engine that makes the Warriors go.

If KD doing good doesn't have as much affect as Curry doing good on the fortune of the Warriors, well there's your answer isn't there?

Find my post where I said Curry isn't the engine.

I've said KD is the better player, and I've said KD is more unguardable. But I've never said KD was the engine. Please point it out for me where I said that.

ewing
06-16-2017, 02:49 PM
Westbrook stats don't count bc he is the only option, curry's don't bc the Warriors have too many options..... idk maybe you guys are playing favorites??????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:51 PM
Find my post where I said Curry isn't the engine.

I've said KD is the better player, and I've said KD is more unguardable. But I've never said KD was the engine. Please point it out for me where I said that.

You very clearly said it was KD's team. It cannot be KD's team if Steph is the engine that makes the team go...

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:54 PM
Vee-Rex, here is you in post 181:


It's KD's team and Steph seems to be okay with it.

valade16
06-16-2017, 02:54 PM
I'm cool with that - as I've mentioned Steph's gravity numerous times already.

But he's not the best player in the league and he's not the best player on the Warriors. It's like people are completely ignoring defense by suggesting otherwise.

Has anyone said that? No. I think the vast majority recognize LeBron is the best in the league.

nastynice
06-16-2017, 02:59 PM
This while true doesn't address my concerns about their individual growth as players. Was that success due to internal growth or just having so much firepower teams couldn't expose their respective weaknesses?

Internal growth, that's what I'm saying, they would take control whenever needed

mngopher35
06-16-2017, 03:07 PM
I'm cool with that - as I've mentioned Steph's gravity numerous times already.

But he's not the best player in the league and he's not the best player on the Warriors. It's like people are completely ignoring defense by suggesting otherwise.

I think Curry is the best player on the Warriors and Durant's numbers many point to actually get boosted due to the attention Curry receives due to that gravity. To me Durant lacking that gravity or same level impact for the team (outside his getting his within the flow) is a big issue compared to other top guys to me.

I think Durant is definitely better defensively but the impact Curry has offensively for them is clearly better too and to me that is also a bit more important (which can help cover any sort of gap). In the end I would say they are close with Kawhi for 2-4 in the league and it is pretty much alright to order them anyway. I personally think removing Curry hurts them more than removing durant because of that gravity and impact it has (making curry's exceed Durant's overall).

He is just excelling at easy opportunities right now in the flow because teams can't put extra attention on both and have to choose to stop one (as people have been saying that's Curry). This leaves Durant to capitalize on open opportunities/mismatches without the focus most stars receive. I think of it like young kobe excelling next to Shaq, still a great player but clearly benefiting from gravity of another (I mean partially just the system in generally with their talent but Curry is the key).

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 03:19 PM
Has anyone said that? No. I think the vast majority recognize LeBron is the best in the league.

Monta_is_beast was saying that he thinks Curry is the best in the league right now because of his gravity.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 03:23 PM
You very clearly said it was KD's team. It cannot be KD's team if Steph is the engine that makes the team go...

Those two aren't the same thing, though.

Stockton was the engine of those 90's Jazz teams but it was clearly Malone's team. Point guards especially are more likely to be an actual engine and have the biggest impact/gravity/whatever but that doesn't mean it's their team.

I'm saying KD is the best player and the go-to guy. It's his team. His impact doesn't necessarily measure as high as Steph's, particularly because his offense can be made up (by Klay scoring a lot) and his defense made up (by Dray covering for it), and so losing him can be covered for. Whereas Steph's gravity and ability to stretch the defense and cause breakdowns cannot be replaced, so naturally his impact will be higher.

Doesn't mean it's HIS team because he's the most important for its success - I could rattle off more examples of this.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 03:27 PM
I think Curry is the best player on the Warriors and Durant's numbers many point to actually get boosted due to the attention Curry receives due to that gravity. To me Durant lacking that gravity or same level impact for the team (outside his getting his within the flow) is a big issue compared to other top guys to me.

I think Durant is definitely better defensively but the impact Curry has offensively for them is clearly better too and to me that is also a bit more important (which can help cover any sort of gap). In the end I would say they are close with Kawhi for 2-4 in the league and it is pretty much alright to order them anyway. I personally think removing Curry hurts them more than removing durant because of that gravity and impact it has (making curry's exceed Durant's overall).

He is just excelling at easy opportunities right now in the flow because teams can't put extra attention on both and have to choose to stop one (as people have been saying that's Curry). This leaves Durant to capitalize on open opportunities/mismatches without the focus most stars receive. I think of it like young kobe excelling next to Shaq, still a great player but clearly benefiting from gravity of another (I mean partially just the system in generally with their talent but Curry is the key).

But Curry is also capitalizing on opportunities because of Durant and because of the GS system.

A player's importance does not necessarily mean he's the better player IMO. There's so many variables that go into impact that I don't think anyone can make that blanket statement.

Obviously it's close, but I think by this time next year there will be more people believing Durant is the better player.

Edit: I also maintain that teams choose to try to limit/slow down Curry over Durant because they have a better chance at doing it. Curry is more prone to turnovers and making mistakes than Durant is and he's a smaller dude so it's easier to bother him and halt the offense in the process. Durant can shoot or pass over traps.

FlashBolt
06-16-2017, 03:32 PM
Just give up. You are "debating" with someone who thought Magic only had two rings.

mngopher35
06-16-2017, 03:37 PM
But Curry is also capitalizing on opportunities because of Durant and because of the GS system.

A player's importance does not necessarily mean he's the better player IMO. There's so many variables that go into impact that I don't think anyone can make that blanket statement.

Obviously it's close, but I think by this time next year there will be more people believing Durant is the better player.

Partially yes but Durant isn't the one taking the traps/doubles to take attention off others like Curry does creating 4v3 or better. He really isn't that type of gravity player and probably lost his opportunity to show if he ever could become that long term on this team. His numbers were off the charts before Durant and now he is moreso taking that attention to open things for Durant instead of Barnes so of course you let him capitalize more on those mismatches/opportunities than the guy getting the extra attention. Durant actually benefited from the same thing with Westy (who took defenders like Kawhi at times too), although Westy also had his own issues. Durant generally is not a guy who creates for the team a ton offensively but certainly takes advantage of his opportunities as one of the best scorers ever.

Curry was considered better by many up until this year too, some even putting him over Lebron. It isn't just that he is more important to this team now with Durant here, it's that he had shown to be that type of gravity guy beforehand too. I agree that Durant will get more credit moving forward for his numbers etc. and stated that before this series even. To me unless teams change the way they play them it seems more likely that Curry always has that gravity and arguably more overall impact because of it for his team.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2017, 03:52 PM
Partially yes but Durant isn't the one taking the traps/doubles to take attention off others like Curry does creating 4v3 or better. He really isn't that type of gravity player and probably lost his opportunity to show if he ever could become that long term on this team. His numbers were off the charts before Durant and now he is moreso taking that attention to open things for Durant instead of Barnes so of course you let him capitalize more on those mismatches/opportunities than the guy getting the extra attention. Durant actually benefited from the same thing with Westy (who took defenders like Kawhi at times too), although Westy also had his own issues. Durant generally is not a guy who creates for the team a ton offensively but certainly takes advantage of his opportunities as one of the best scorers ever.

Curry was considered better by many up until this year too, some even putting him over Lebron. It isn't just that he is more important to this team now with Durant here, it's that he had shown to be that type of gravity guy beforehand too. I agree that Durant will get more credit moving forward for his numbers etc. and stated that before this series even. To me unless teams change the way they play them it seems more likely that Curry always has that gravity and arguably more overall impact because of it for his team.

Honestly I feel like my entire argument has been a glass half full/half empty sort of thing.

My opinion is that Durant isn't taking as much traps/double teams because teams know better not to do it vs. him. Curry creates the 4/3 along with turnovers - Durant creates the 4/3 without the turnovers. So as an opposing team, would you rather trap Durant or Curry?

Your BEST chance at defending Durant is just to try to get a hand in his face, because you can't slow him down in any other way - not by trapping, not by playing under or over or hedging the PnR. Your BEST chance at defending Curry is to try to get a hand in his face, but if he runs the PnR you have the option of trapping and forcing bad/lazy passes. These passes don't necessarily always lead to turnovers, but sometimes they can just be mistimed passes or passes thrown a little off target, which allows the defense to scramble back into place. The extra option in defending Steph is there, and it's really not there with Durant.

You're absolutely right that Curry was considered better before, and even placed him over LeBron. I did that myself at the middle of the 2015-16 season. But I think it was a mistake, and I think teams have learned how to defend Curry a bit better than they were in the 1st half of the 2015-16 season, and honestly I think it was a performance that just won't be replicated even if Durant didn't sign with the Warriors. It was a historical level of play he was at and not necessarily an accurate representation of where he truly is. Call it overachieving, especially when you see how much more aggressive teams are against him in the playoffs nowadays.

I do not value individual defense as much as individual offense, but I believe KD and Steph's offense (impact included) are closer than their defense is.

mngopher35
06-16-2017, 04:30 PM
Honestly I feel like my entire argument has been a glass half full/half empty sort of thing.

My opinion is that Durant isn't taking as much traps/double teams because teams know better not to do it vs. him. Curry creates the 4/3 along with turnovers - Durant creates the 4/3 without the turnovers. So as an opposing team, would you rather trap Durant or Curry?

Your BEST chance at defending Durant is just to try to get a hand in his face, because you can't slow him down in any other way - not by trapping, not by playing under or over or hedging the PnR. Your BEST chance at defending Curry is to try to get a hand in his face, but if he runs the PnR you have the option of trapping and forcing bad/lazy passes. These passes don't necessarily always lead to turnovers, but sometimes they can just be mistimed passes or passes thrown a little off target, which allows the defense to scramble back into place. The extra option in defending Steph is there, and it's really not there with Durant.

You're absolutely right that Curry was considered better before, and even placed him over LeBron. I did that myself at the middle of the 2015-16 season. But I think it was a mistake, and I think teams have learned how to defend Curry a bit better than they were in the 1st half of the 2015-16 season, and honestly I think it was a performance that just won't be replicated even if Durant didn't sign with the Warriors. It was a historical level of play he was at and not necessarily an accurate representation of where he truly is. Call it overachieving, especially when you see how much more aggressive teams are against him in the playoffs nowadays.

I do not value individual defense as much as individual offense, but I believe KD and Steph's offense (impact included) are closer than their defense is.

I think it's moreso that team know durant isn't the main creator and it's best to let him get his 1v1 on easier matchups than let the entire team excel off the gravity players/playmakers. Teams have to be aggressive on these guys because it throws off the rythm of the team to an extent. If you focus your energy on Durant then the creators/rest of the team are more likely to go off so you stop the guy who is the engine.

We just see things much differently on that front it seems and even into Curry last year to now. I have long taken the stance Curry wasn't quite there yet until proving it post season (which he hadn't done over Lebron yet imo) but this drop off is directly related to Durant and it's why when Durant went down he stepped right back up and the team didn't miss a beat really.

I think it's fair to say the offense is a bit closer than the defense (even with that gravity/impact) now with Durant but imo that offense is more valuable even if not quite as big. Being the engine offensively is just more valuable to me than a guy who is great on both ends but doesn't lead on either (which is where he is at on this team). It will be tougher to gauge now that they are on the same team but I haven't seen much to change my mind yet (although Durant's finals play helped make it a question at least instead of easy choice).

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 05:09 PM
So vee rex you agree that Curry is the engine? Which means he's the most important player on the team Which means he's the most valuable player on the team. The point of basketball is to win and Steph does that better than KD, that's the hard truth. I **** with KD he's unbelivable and I think he's neck and neck w Bron, but I also think Curry is in the discussion as well. He played second fiddle and still put up 27-9-8, while still being​ blitzed in p&r.

You can say he wasn't hurt last year but again every warriors fan will tell you his movement was nothing the same after he slipped vs Houston. He's the best player I've ever seen at creating space and he couldn't do that last year.

Imo rn its

Bron
Curry
Durant

And the gap is getting smaller and smaller for Bron vs those two. Curry has earned the right to be in that discussion more than KD has I think

GREATNESS ONE
06-16-2017, 05:12 PM
Magic is ahead of Curry...for now

Lol you sure?

GREATNESS ONE
06-16-2017, 05:13 PM
Curry wasn't beating the Cavs w/o Durant.

Durant wasn't beating the Cavs w/o Curry.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 05:14 PM
I think it's moreso that team know durant isn't the main creator and it's best to let him get his 1v1 on easier matchups than let the entire team excel off the gravity players/playmakers. Teams have to be aggressive on these guys because it throws off the rythm of the team to an extent. If you focus your energy on Durant then the creators/rest of the team are more likely to go off so you stop the guy who is the engine.

We just see things much differently on that front it seems and even into Curry last year to now. I have long taken the stance Curry wasn't quite there yet until proving it post season (which he hadn't done over Lebron yet imo) but this drop off is directly related to Durant and it's why when Durant went down he stepped right back up and the team didn't miss a beat really.

I think it's fair to say the offense is a bit closer than the defense (even with that gravity/impact) now with Durant but imo that offense is more valuable even if not quite as big. Being the engine offensively is just more valuable to me than a guy who is great on both ends but doesn't lead on either (which is where he is at on this team). It will be tougher to gauge now that they are on the same team but I haven't seen much to change my mind yet (although Durant's finals play helped make it a question at least instead of easy choice).

This was a great post.

And Steph is not a bad defender he's average/below average on ball but his off ball and team defense are really good

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 05:15 PM
Curry wasn't beating the Cavs w/o Durant.

Durant wasn't beating the Cavs w/o Curry.

How can you this?

We would have beat cle just one year ago if it wasn't for politics. Like cmon bruh

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 05:15 PM
AND HE WAS HURT like **** what planet are y'all on

nastynice
06-16-2017, 05:37 PM
Monta_is_beast was saying that he thinks Curry is the best in the league right now because of his gravity.

Lebron's the best, but Curry could def be argued as the guy you take if you're going to build a franchise. Not only argued, he's prob in the driver seat.

He really is the ultimate team player.

Monta is beast
06-16-2017, 06:01 PM
When did I say that? Why do you constantly make things up? Did you not see where I said

LeBron
Curry
Durant

GREATNESS ONE
06-16-2017, 06:09 PM
How can you this?

We would have beat cle just one year ago if it wasn't for politics. Like cmon bruh

I don't think you would have w/ an ailing Curry. Guess it could have gone either way, since it did come down to the last 2m