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View Full Version : Is lebron James uncoachable. ?????



Kyben36
06-14-2017, 03:38 AM
now. I'm trying to get off the topic of KD sellout. so I want to bring up a topic I have thought about quite often. and that is. is lebron James a problem for coaches.. I am in no way saying that lebron James is a bad player. but bassed on my own observations. it seems like no matter where he goes. offensive systems die. and we end up with LeBron isolation or.... if needed. 2ndary iso. (Kyrie or wade) I mean. it's really to me clear watching the warriors face them. that despite all the tallent. they are still team orriented effectively run offense. where when I watch the Cavs. well. LeBron makes a ton of plays. but that's all the offense seems to be. him and Kyrie making all the plays. or back in the heat days. him and wade. sure a few screens for shooters might be set. but at the end of the play. 80 percent of the time it comes down to an individual play by one of the top players.

so do you think that lebron could work well in an actual system. like say the triangle or the GS model. or would it be abandoned due to ..... well. his specacular individual play or desire not to do so.

I'm actually really interested to hear from heat fans. as they saw the affect that lebron had on their offense when he came.

HandsOnTheWheel
06-14-2017, 04:03 AM
Well, kind of hard to judge what effect he had on a fully revamped roster. The only players remaining from the previous season were Wade, Chalmers and Haslem. Not sure if you're under the same illusion that the majority of this site seems to be deeply afflicted by with this James started the superteam rhetoric nonsense. James essentially built the Heat from the ground-up and James did not join an already assembled team or offense, such as Durant did. (Championship/all-time caliber at that).

But enough of that, the truth is James doesn't need to be coached as he knows his game from the top to the bottom at this point, and it wouldn't surprise me if his prime lasted another 5-6 years just because of how the team is assembled/run for Lebron, by Lebron.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2017, 04:16 AM
Yes, any team that has LeBron will be playing LeBron ball. That's not really an issue, since the results are pretty great, but it is a reality about him. Miami had a bit more going on in 12-14 and he was more willing to do other things like play/defend PFs and post up far more frequently. They were still super ISO heavy though. Now it's all about that spread ISO action.

da ThRONe
06-14-2017, 06:52 AM
His IQ is amongst the highest players. We don't know what system is trying to be implemented. I have to put this on Lue. The one game I see them move the ball and slow things down was the one game they won.

cmellofan15
06-14-2017, 07:09 AM
He's had one decent coach and they won two finals so there's that

IndyRealist
06-14-2017, 07:25 AM
Lebron slashing or pick n roll is pretty optimal offense. The Cavs shot like 55% in game 5. Offense is not the problem.

RowBTrice
06-14-2017, 07:33 AM
He had s history of minimizing his coach if he doesn't like what they say or do. He believes he is the coach and the GM for that matter.

ewing
06-14-2017, 07:35 AM
On the heat him and Wade did start playing off the ball. it worked but he left once they got there *** kicked


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Scoots
06-14-2017, 08:11 AM
Lebron slashing or pick n roll is pretty optimal offense. The Cavs shot like 55% in game 5. Offense is not the problem.

If you believe the common coaching philosophy that players play better defense if they are involved on offense then maybe the offense is part of the problem.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2017, 09:05 AM
It's a problem that is inevitable when the best scorer on the court is also the best passer/playmaker. I think the coaches recognize this and let go of some of the control. It benefits the coach and team.

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FlashBolt
06-14-2017, 11:24 AM
I disagree about him uncoachable. I think it has more to do with how he was brought up in Cleveland for seven seasons and he just learned how to play WITHOUT a coach for most of his career. But we also have to stop pretending LeBron has played for the best coaches in the NBA. He's not exactly being coached by guys who have had experience with stars.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2017, 11:29 AM
It's a problem that is inevitable when the best scorer on the court is also the best passer/playmaker. I think the coaches recognize this and let go of some of the control. It benefits the coach and team.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

this is the correct answer.

JasonJohnHorn
06-14-2017, 11:50 AM
The 'problem' is that James is such a great coach himself, you have to get an exceptional coach to lead him.

I remember on play I was watching (somebody had posted the clip on Reddit), Kyrie ran an iso play, and from the other side of the court James called for Tristan to come up for a pick (Tristan should have just done that), and that is how clear he sees things. On the switch, Curry came out and left his man open in the corner. Kyrie didn't see it and ended up either dumping the ball to Tristan or took the shot himself. James saw what SHOULD have happened, so he ran the exact same play himself on the next play and got the ball to the man in the corner for the wide open three. I forget whether it went in or not, but he saw the court better than Kyrie did, and likely better than Lue did.

It takes a great coach to see a pattern like that on one possession and make the proper adjustment. Now when the defense handles that pick-and-roll, they will either leave that man open, or have to cover him and make it easier for the guy with the ball to score.

James is coaching the team when he's on the floor. Jordan did the same thing. So did Kidd. So did Magic. Paul does it as well.

When you get a player with that high an BBIQ, and that much vision and awareness, you let them lead on the court. Even yelling from the sidelines, a coach can't always get players to make changes in transition like a guy like Kidd, Paul, and James can on the court.

Now the problem is, in the huddle, if James is the better coach, then suddenly there is going to be an issue. Because the coach might say one thing when James sees it another way.

Is he uncoachable? Absolutely not. He is very coachable. He has absorbed everything he's learned from guys like Brown and Spo, and from his own experience. When he's on the Olympic team, he seems to be absorbed in whatever coach K has to say. He really listens. He's spoken about wanting to play under Pop (at the Olympics, not for the Spurs). He clearly has a great deal of respect for coaches.


The only problem is, if you are an average coach, or a simply just a good coach, James likely will have better insights than that coach. If the coach doesnt recognize taht, there will be a problem.

I think that's why James wanted a former player... a guy who knows that on the court, the players, the smart ones, need the freedom to call things as they see fit.

That said.. if LBJ was in GSW, I think he'd happily play into the system Kerr has going on. I think he'd like having other guys who can pass and moving away from the ball. He'd fit in even better than Green.

Uncoachable? No. He's jsut a great coach himself. If you don't have an exceptional coach to guide/lead/teach him, you need a average or good coach who is humble enough to defer to James.

This isn't like the PJAx/Kobe thing, where PJax actually know what is best for the team but Kobe wants to play hero ball and take circus shots when there are better shots available.

LA4life24/8
06-14-2017, 12:03 PM
Anyone think lebron might try his hand at coaching after his playing career is over? Hes basically been a player coach most seasons hes been in the league.

Would he have any desire to do so? Would he wanna be gm coach like doc? Or does he just move away from ball and try and focus on hollywood?

BKLYNpigeon
06-14-2017, 12:42 PM
Who knows. He's never played for a top tier coach with a strict system in place.

aman_13
06-14-2017, 12:55 PM
Anyone think lebron might try his hand at coaching after his playing career is over? Hes basically been a player coach most seasons hes been in the league.

Would he have any desire to do so? Would he wanna be gm coach like doc? Or does he just move away from ball and try and focus on hollywood?

He wants to be an owner.

IndyRealist
06-14-2017, 01:12 PM
If you believe the common coaching philosophy that players play better defense if they are involved on offense then maybe the offense is part of the problem.

Kyrie Irving. Kevin Love. Kyle Korver. Deron Williams.

Saw the same thing with the Pacers. Top 5 defensive team, then replaced all the defensive players with the likes of Monta Ellis and Al Jefferson, and just expected them to be able to play defense. It's possible it's effort, but when you're dealing with vets who never played defense their entire career, they probably just can't.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2017, 01:17 PM
Kyrie Irving. Kevin Love. Kyle Korver. Deron Williams.

Saw the same thing with the Pacers. Top 5 defensive team, then replaced all the defensive players with the likes of Monta Ellis and Al Jefferson, and just expected them to be able to play defense. It's possible it's effort, but when you're dealing with vets who never played defense their entire career, they probably just can't.

Yes, the defensive talent on Cleveland is quite terrible. They went a little too deep into the D'Antoni mentality of trying to outscore your opponent by raining 3s haha. Even if they are the best 3 point shooting team of all time, you have to be able to get stops. To make matters worse, Thompson is not a real C or a strong rim protector.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2017, 01:56 PM
Kyrie Irving. Kevin Love. Kyle Korver. Deron Williams.

Saw the same thing with the Pacers. Top 5 defensive team, then replaced all the defensive players with the likes of Monta Ellis and Al Jefferson, and just expected them to be able to play defense. It's possible it's effort, but when you're dealing with vets who never played defense their entire career, they probably just can't.

good point. The Cavs defense is the main reason I figured GS in 5. Sure the Cavs were expected to be shooting well a couple of games, but if you aren't an elite defensive team, I am sorry, but you aint keeping up with the Warriors...

Scoots
06-14-2017, 04:01 PM
Kyrie Irving. Kevin Love. Kyle Korver. Deron Williams.

Saw the same thing with the Pacers. Top 5 defensive team, then replaced all the defensive players with the likes of Monta Ellis and Al Jefferson, and just expected them to be able to play defense. It's possible it's effort, but when you're dealing with vets who never played defense their entire career, they probably just can't.

That's true to a point ... but LeBron, Shumpert, Thompson, Jefferson, and occasionally JR have been talked about as good to average defenders ... but every one of them stood still in range to do something and watched a bucket being scored at some point during the finals. That's not talent, it's effort, it's being engaged.

I love defense, and it starts with a buy in, effort, and coaching the players. The Cavs had none of it.

Chromehounds
06-14-2017, 04:06 PM
LeBron is a system, an entity in itself. No coach can change/coach a LeBron. I believe the last time he somewhat bought into a system was in Miami with Riley as the GM. Maybe in a couple of years when he's slower and older he might buy in to a system of play, then again, he might just keep what he does ISO then the fall back jump shot like all older stars do. ;)

Hawkeye15
06-14-2017, 04:09 PM
That's true to a point ... but LeBron, Shumpert, Thompson, Jefferson, and occasionally JR have been talked about as good to average defenders ... but every one of them stood still in range to do something and watched a bucket being scored at some point during the finals. That's not talent, it's effort, it's being engaged.

I love defense, and it starts with a buy in, effort, and coaching the players. The Cavs had none of it.

to be fair, GS makes even great defenses look silly. They are so good at getting a defense swinging, and when you get that 5 man chain moving, a link breaks, GS sees it, and attacks it better than any team I have ever seen.

ewing
06-14-2017, 04:11 PM
No all you have to do is smile and nod, give some interviews. sounds like an easy gig

Scoots
06-14-2017, 05:16 PM
to be fair, GS makes even great defenses look silly. They are so good at getting a defense swinging, and when you get that 5 man chain moving, a link breaks, GS sees it, and attacks it better than any team I have ever seen.

And I understand that ... but transition is about hustle and fundamentals.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2017, 05:24 PM
And I understand that ... but transition is about hustle and fundamentals.

don't get smart with me!

FlashBolt
06-14-2017, 05:26 PM
And I understand that ... but transition is about hustle and fundamentals.

What do you suppose a defense do against the Warriors? No one even understands how to guard against them. Hell, before they got KD, it was damn near impossible to effectively guard them. All of a sudden, you add KD and expect the Warriors to be stopped by defense? It makes zero sense. What kind of defense do you suggest they play? Simply saying "try harder, more energy" is easy but their offense and pace just tires out teams. It's why guys like J.R. made stupid fouls in transition rather than trust their defense.. because you can't trust your defense. The Warriors offense is just damn near too good. You can't realistically expect a team to guard them unless you have Kawhi, CP3, and Gobert.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2017, 07:55 PM
I have always thought he has had terrible coaches in his career outside of Blatt (who didn't really fit with Lebron).

Scoots
06-14-2017, 10:04 PM
What do you suppose a defense do against the Warriors? No one even understands how to guard against them. Hell, before they got KD, it was damn near impossible to effectively guard them. All of a sudden, you add KD and expect the Warriors to be stopped by defense? It makes zero sense. What kind of defense do you suggest they play? Simply saying "try harder, more energy" is easy but their offense and pace just tires out teams. It's why guys like J.R. made stupid fouls in transition rather than trust their defense.. because you can't trust your defense. The Warriors offense is just damn near too good. You can't realistically expect a team to guard them unless you have Kawhi, CP3, and Gobert.

It's funny, I hopped back on the net just now and a video was posted about the Cavs transition D.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32zgkcybr-A&t=311s

CP3 and Gobert were made to look silly by the Warriors this year too. Guards who can stay in front of the Warriors guards, a team that is physical, quick, and long, and with enough inside size to keep the Warriors out of the "Hamptons" lineup seems to be the best formula. The Grizzlies, Nuggets (on a good night), Spurs, Wizards, Celtics, and Jazz gave them some grief.