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More-Than-Most
06-12-2017, 11:43 PM
Lebron James was the best player in the finals.

blams
06-12-2017, 11:49 PM
Yes... He absolutely was

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B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-12-2017, 11:50 PM
LeBron James is the best player in the league srry just seen it live.

Hustla23
06-12-2017, 11:50 PM
I hope Iguodala wins finals MVP again. Best player on the court.

More-Than-Most
06-12-2017, 11:51 PM
its insane that in 2 championships curry will not win MVP.

GREATNESS ONE
06-12-2017, 11:53 PM
KD is Finals MVP

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-12-2017, 11:53 PM
its insane that in 2 championships curry will not win MVP.

He's the Crosby of the NBA, all the way down to their beards.

Jeffy25
06-12-2017, 11:55 PM
I dunno about 6 in a row, but he for sure was in this Finals

FlashBolt
06-12-2017, 11:55 PM
Durant did nothing to convince me he was the best NBA player. Nothing. All he did was show me that he can score because teams can no longer double him.

blams
06-12-2017, 11:56 PM
Durant did nothing to convince me he was the best NBA player. Nothing. All he did was show me that he can score because teams can no longer double him.
He's right there though. Still LeBron.

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zn23
06-12-2017, 11:56 PM
Maybe, but KD closed the gap significantly. This was the first time LeBron had to face a talent like KD in the finals since he faced him in 2012.

LA_Raiders
06-12-2017, 11:56 PM
It was definitely KD, he played great on both ends, and most important; he got it done.

Jeffy25
06-12-2017, 11:58 PM
Maybe, but KD closed the gap significantly. This was the first time LeBron had to face a talent like KD in the finals since he faced him in 2012.

Curry?
Those Spurs teams weren't insanely good?

Chronz
06-12-2017, 11:58 PM
Im happy Zaza and West got their rings. Maybe now they can go back to going for the money or role.

Jeffy25
06-12-2017, 11:59 PM
It was definitely KD, he played great on both ends, and most important; he got it done.

Kind of easy when he had all that space to play and score on and didn't have to be the focus ever, right?

Isn't that what Kobe fans have always argued to raise Kobe's greatness? That he scored with attention on him? Well that wouldn't have been KD this series.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-13-2017, 12:00 AM
Curry?
Those Spurs teams weren't insanely good?

The Spurs teams didn't have anyone as good as Durant this year though.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-13-2017, 12:00 AM
Im happy Zaza and West got their rings. Maybe now they can go back to going for the money or role.

lol Zaza might be the first championship player whose stock dropped after they won it all.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-13-2017, 12:02 AM
LeBron is unbelievable! I've grown a lot of respect for him over the years. At his age and mileage, to see what he did against this team was awesome.

da ThRONe
06-13-2017, 12:03 AM
Maybe, but KD closed the gap significantly. This was the first time LeBron had to face a talent like KD in the finals since he faced him in 2012.

Not really. His team is better his system is better and as a result his job was easier.

Jets012
06-13-2017, 12:12 AM
LeBron was great but KD was fantastic as well. People are discrediting just how efficient and good he was. I know he's surrounded by talent which helps him out, but give the man props. To score as much as he did with the # of shots he did is incredible.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 12:15 AM
LeBron was great but KD was fantastic as well. People are discrediting just how efficient and good he was. I know he's surrounded by talent which helps him out, but give the man props. To score as much as he did with the # of shots he did is incredible.

He was great. But there wasn't a superstar moment. He didn't have to do that "extra" to win. It was just him getting the easiest shots he's ever seen. This is the same KD in OKC. The defense may seem better but it's a result of him not having to do much offensively.

Heediot
06-13-2017, 12:16 AM
I get the hate for Durant joining the Warriors. But the criticism for his killer instinct was off based IMO. He was clutch as **** in this series and showed up his mental fortitude.

J-Relo
06-13-2017, 12:16 AM
LeBron was great but KD was fantastic as well. People are discrediting just how efficient and good he was. I know he's surrounded by talent which helps him out, but give the man props. To score as much as he did with the # of shots he did is incredible.

He is an excellent shooter, I give you that.

Heediot
06-13-2017, 12:17 AM
He was great. But there wasn't a superstar moment. He didn't have to do that "extra" to win. It was just him getting the easiest shots he's ever seen. This is the same KD in OKC. The defense may seem better but it's a result of him not having to do much offensively.

Game 3 dagger trey for the win over Lebron was that moment.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 12:19 AM
Game 3 dagger trey for the win over Lebron was that moment.

The same game where he went MIA for three quarters, comes back when LeBron had to play EVERY minute?

kdspurman
06-13-2017, 12:21 AM
2011 (obvious) , 2013 (not all that great the first few games), 2014 (despite his ending #s , it's still debatable)

Idk about 6 straight years, but the last 3 for sure.

Jets012
06-13-2017, 12:22 AM
The same game where he went MIA for three quarters, comes back when LeBron had to play EVERY minute?

Played 41 minutes and had 31 points on 18 shots that game. Durant was fantastic for basically the whole season.

Bostonjorge
06-13-2017, 12:22 AM
5 final loses

Heediot
06-13-2017, 12:22 AM
The same game where he went MIA for three quarters, comes back when LeBron had to play EVERY minute?

He still showed up it when it mattered most that game, and the dude scored 30 plus in all 7 games. His job was far more easier vs. others superstars of past/now, but he did what he had to do and more in his position/circumstance IMO.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 12:26 AM
2011 (obvious) , 2013 (not all that great the first few games), 2014 (despite his ending #s , it's still debatable)

Idk about 6 straight years, but the last 3 for sure.
How was he not the best in 2013 and 2014? That's silly, dude. Kawhi was not better than LeBron in those series.

smith&wesson
06-13-2017, 12:30 AM
Curry and Durant should have been co-mvps

blams
06-13-2017, 12:31 AM
2011 (obvious) , 2013 (not all that great the first few games), 2014 (despite his ending #s , it's still debatable)

Idk about 6 straight years, but the last 3 for sure.
2011, that's it. Otherwise it isn't close .

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ewing
06-13-2017, 12:32 AM
Im happy Zaza and West got their rings. Maybe now they can go back to going for the money or role.

Zaza was terrible. was he the worst starting center in NBA finals history?

kdspurman
06-13-2017, 12:34 AM
How was he not the best in 2013 and 2014? That's silly, dude. Kawhi was not better than LeBron in those series.

We can agree to disagree on the 2014. 2013, I think people forget how meh he was games 1-3. So even if his numbers are there, I think context matters when you're discussing this. I won't argue 2013, lots of guys played well. TD was also very good

DanG
06-13-2017, 12:38 AM
Lolz 2014 LeBron was easily the best. The homerism in this forum is just funny. The Spurs were a team.

ewing
06-13-2017, 12:38 AM
Kind of easy when he had all that space to play and score on and didn't have to be the focus ever, right?

Isn't that what Kobe fans have always argued to raise Kobe's greatness? That he scored with attention on him? Well that wouldn't have been KD this series.

I'm pretty sure the Cavs were paying attention to him

Raps18-19 Champ
06-13-2017, 12:44 AM
They both played well.

Regardless of how you feel about Lebron, he played his heart out there.

Durant was unbelievable. He obviously had it a easier but he made a ton of great plays.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 12:44 AM
We can agree to disagree on the 2014. 2013, I think people forget how meh he was games 1-3. So even if his numbers are there, I think context matters when you're discussing this. I won't argue 2013, lots of guys played well. TD was also very good

None of the guys (Kawhi or TD) had the responsibility LeBron had. I don't think it's even close. Kawhi was good but he was mostly a defender rather than a ball dominant player the way he is today. If LeBron wasn't the best in 2013 and 2014, you guys have no excuse to not have swept the Heat in both series. And sorry, TD was not the best player. That's silly. LeBron has been the best player the past six straight Finals. If LeBron was on that team instead of Kawhi, you and I both know the result.

ewing
06-13-2017, 12:45 AM
They both played well.

Regardless of how you feel about Lebron, he played his heart out there.

Durant was unbelievable. He obviously had it a easier but he made a ton of great plays.


Since he came back to Clev Bron has had no quit in him.

kdspurman
06-13-2017, 12:48 AM
None of the guys (Kawhi or TD) had the responsibility LeBron had. I don't think it's even close. Kawhi was good but he was mostly a defender rather than a ball dominant player the way he is today. If LeBron wasn't the best in 2013 and 2014, you guys have no excuse to not have swept the Heat in both series. And sorry, TD was not the best player. That's silly.

That's your opinion dude lol

2013 TD was very good, compatible to LB. We aren't talking about who has the same responsibility. And games 3-5 of 2014, Kawhi was a ball dominant player.

I've watched each of those series enough to understand context matters. I won't argue 2013, like I said he picked it up after really poor (by his standards) outings in games 1-3.

2014, I disagree. Kawhi had the responsibility on both ends to be great, and he delivered after games 1/2.

ODB13
06-13-2017, 12:56 AM
KD. It happened in the last minute of game 3.

LeBron had the rock in his hands with his team up a point, and he kicked out the most pivotal possession of the game to a role player for a corner 3, who missed. KD took the ball down court in front of LeBron, squared up, and knocked down a 3 from the top of the key. Game.

Their numbers are close enough that this killer instinct--which LeBron and his happy feet under pressure has never had--puts KD over the top for me.

Game 4 was a classic LeBron James is Great game, where, with the help of Kyrie and his otherwordly bball IQ, he just put the game out of reach. But most games come down to crucial 4th quarter possessions, and LeBron doesn't shine in those moments. You can see him pressing.

LeBron has a great case for #2 all-time, though, and that's absolutely bonkers given the rich history of this league.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 12:57 AM
That's your opinion dude lol

2013 TD was very good, compatible to LB. We aren't talking about who has the same responsibility. And games 3-5 of 2014, Kawhi was a ball dominant player.

I've watched each of those series enough to understand context matters. I won't argue 2013, like I said he picked it up after really poor (by his standards) outings in games 1-3.

2014, I disagree. Kawhi had the responsibility on both ends to be great, and he delivered after games 1/2.

It's not actually my opinion. There's a consensus. Trying to say 2013 TD was better than LeBron 2013 in the Finals is plain stupid. No disrespect. I can see you being a Spurs fan affecting your way to think about this in a larger perspective but there is just no scenario where anyone truly thought LeBron wasn't the best in 2013-2014. 2014, it was just obvious Spurs were shooting lights out and LeBron's teammates weren't showing up enough to make up those gaps.

kdspurman
06-13-2017, 01:03 AM
It's not actually my opinion. There's a consensus. Trying to say 2013 TD was better than LeBron 2013 in the Finals is plain stupid. No disrespect. I can see you being a Spurs fan affecting your way to think about this in a larger perspective but there is just no scenario where anyone truly thought LeBron wasn't the best in 2013-2014. 2014, it was just obvious Spurs were shooting lights out and LeBron's teammates weren't showing up enough to make up those gaps.

Has nothing to do with being a Spurs fan. As I said, I've watched em enough. 2013, np. I never said TD was better, I just said he was good too. It was close.

2014, nah . You'll think that cause how much he scored, but as I said several times, context matters. It's not the consesus either. Others see the context and saw how he disappeared a lot in that series. W/e the excuse was is irrelevant. Heck in game 3, Miami made their big 3rd quarter run with him on the bench. But again, I've watched it enough to see certain things. It's not just watching one time then looking at final stat lines. Doesn't tell the whole story

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 01:09 AM
Has nothing to do with being a Spurs fan. As I said, I've watched em enough. 2013, np. I never said TD was better, I just said he was good too. It was close.

2014, nah . You'll think that cause how much he scored, but as I said several times, context matters. It's not the consesus either. Others see the context and saw how he disappeared a lot in that series. W/e the excuse was is irrelevant. Heck in game 3, Miami made their big 3rd quarter run with him on the bench. But again, I've watched it enough to see certain things. It's not just watching one time then looking at final stat lines. Doesn't tell the whole story

Whatever you say, KD. I mean, you did have trouble acknowledging the obvious with Popovich regarding Zaza so it's not out of line to say you're being too biased here. You're actually the first to say LeBron wasn't the best in 2013-2014. And to say Tim Duncan had a comparable Finals is laughable. LeBron James was the best player, IN MY OPINION. Along with many other's.

kdspurman
06-13-2017, 01:13 AM
Whatever you say, KD. I mean, you did have trouble acknowledging the obvious with Popovich regarding Zaza so it's not out of line to say you're being too biased here. You're actually the first to say LeBron wasn't the best in 2013-2014. And to say Tim Duncan had a comparable Finals is laughable. LeBron James was the best player, IN MY OPINION. Along with many other's.

Nah. During the heat of the moment it's diff. I'm not the first to say it honestly. I've seen it said else where. TD was close in 2013, tho he played like 7 less mins per game. But I already said LB for his games 3-7, it's cool. Won't argue..

But for that same reason Kawhi > LB in 2014. His last 3 games he was better and more impactful.

I respect your opinion man, I'm just telling you as someone who has watched those series (especially 2014) many times, stats don't always tell the whole story.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 02:44 AM
Nah. During the heat of the moment it's diff. I'm not the first to say it honestly. I've seen it said else where. TD was close in 2013, tho he played like 7 less mins per game. But I already said LB for his games 3-7, it's cool. Won't argue..

But for that same reason Kawhi > LB in 2014. His last 3 games he was better and more impactful.

I respect your opinion man, I'm just telling you as someone who has watched those series (especially 2014) many times, stats don't always tell the whole story.

I'm not using stats, though. The eye test says it all. Kawhi just benefited a whole bunch from his team and his lack of legitimate responsibility may guide you that he's a better player. Just like KD this year. He might "seem" like the better player but we all know roles reversed and all things being equal, LeBron is still the best player. I just don't think you can say "use context" when there isn't any context being used by you. Kawhi wasn't the best player in that Finals. Stats or no stats, it was clear that the Spurs just had the gameplan and team that Heat didn't. But the best player has been LeBron. If we're being honest here and leave the playoffs out of it, LeBron has been the best player for over a decade. 2007-2010, you can say Wade/LeBron give-or-take. But 2011, even with that Dirk chokejob, I didn't see a better player. Kawhi is getting awfully close and is still the 2nd best IMO, but I haven't seen anyone take that away from LeBron. I do respect your opinion but it isn't always the case that a question is an opinion or not. Sometimes, consensus is made and a collective group of opinion turns to be a near-truth. It's an opinion that MJ is the best. When more than 80% probably agree that he is, then he just might be.

Saddletramp
06-13-2017, 03:29 AM
Maybe, but KD closed the gap significantly. This was the first time LeBron had to face a talent like KD in the finals since he faced him in 2012.

Uhhhhh, Steph was Unanimous MVP last year. Oh, you mean talent regardless of style/schemes/teammates. Gotcha.

Bostonjorge
06-13-2017, 03:44 AM
None of the guys (Kawhi or TD) had the responsibility LeBron had. I don't think it's even close. Kawhi was good but he was mostly a defender rather than a ball dominant player the way he is today. If LeBron wasn't the best in 2013 and 2014, you guys have no excuse to not have swept the Heat in both series. And sorry, TD was not the best player. That's silly. LeBron has been the best player the past six straight Finals. If LeBron was on that team instead of Kawhi, you and I both know the result.

How was the Spurs going to sweep the Heat in 2013? They couldn't even stop Wade who many on here say was just awful and washed up. Wade out scored every single Spurs player in 2013. Kawahi was just ok and hadn't arrived. Old washed up Tim Duncan lead this Spurs team in scoring. Duncan wasn't even trusted to guard out of bounds plays anymore. Yet the rest of his team couldn't get you washed up Wade or old Duncan numbers.

If you want to pretend James did something amazing here then go head. I can name 30 players who could beat that Spurs team when your teammate out scores every player on the other team.

JAZZNC
06-13-2017, 04:08 AM
5 final loses
Jesus dude, we get it you don't like LeBron. God almighty just shut up with this crap already. He's a top 2 or 3 player all time whether you like it or not and that's a non-debatable fact to any mentally stable human being. But you are obviously not so continue your ridiculous hatred for one of the best to ever lace em up.

metswon69
06-13-2017, 04:46 AM
It is kind of stupid all the Lebron hate. How many guys in NBA history have been the best player on teams that have gone to the finals 7 straight years? Yeah, yeah he had help but so does every other great player.

The guy averaged a triple double for the series, was the best player on the court, against an all time team but 5 finals losses will always define him. Its really dumb.

nastynice
06-13-2017, 06:13 AM
Yea, Lebron had a phenomenal finals. This has got to be every bit impressive as westbrooks season, if not more. His last 3 finals he's played at an insanely high level, basically start to finish. Miami helped him grow into the perfect leader for inexperienced guys like Irving and love

There's just something about him I can't put my finger on. It's like the way Curry plays, it allows those around him to shine, always giving other guys touches early in the clock, constantly moving off the ball to help get guys open, he just plays in a way conducive to getting others involved and in rhythm. Lebron's style seems to almost do the opposite. Kinda like drive n kick, but guys are touching the ball for the first time in 4-5 possessions. I dunno, it's weird how it just always seems to feel like he doesn't have enough help

R. Johnson#3
06-13-2017, 06:13 AM
Durant did nothing to convince me he was the best NBA player. Nothing. All he did was show me that he can score because teams can no longer double him.

And that's what KD is best at. His game isn't playmaking, it's scoring and he did it at an insane clip throughout the Finals. Don't get me wrong, he's a ***** but he was scoring at will.

nastynice
06-13-2017, 06:17 AM
And that's what KD is best at. His game isn't playmaking, it's scoring and he did it at an insane clip throughout the Finals. Don't get me wrong, he's a ***** but he was scoring at will.

Haha, efficiency was stupid high

LongIslandIcedZ
06-13-2017, 07:35 AM
@ChrisBHaynes: LeBron James was the first player to lead both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in a playoff series of any length.


Wow

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nastynice
06-13-2017, 07:52 AM
@ChrisBHaynes: LeBron James was the first player to lead both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in a playoff series of any length.


Wow

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Didn't he do that last year?

R. Johnson#3
06-13-2017, 08:46 AM
It is kind of stupid all the Lebron hate. How many guys in NBA history have been the best player on teams that have gone to the finals 7 straight years? Yeah, yeah he had help but so does every other great player.

The guy averaged a triple double for the series, was the best player on the court, against an all time team but 5 finals losses will always define him. Its really dumb.

Yes because when you literally construct a superteam then hand pick your bench two separate times you're expected to win. The Dubs built their team the real way then added the cherry on top with Durant. Lebron's 1st superteam got beaten twice by two diff teams so he bolted. His new one just got beaten for the second time as well. I'm not saying Lebron is **** but when you go out as the GM, coach and star player of a team yet you continue to lose in the finals then I better not be hearing excuses. There isn't a single player in the league who has as much control over a team as Lebron has yet he always finds a way to lose.

LongIslandIcedZ
06-13-2017, 08:53 AM
Didn't he do that last year?
I actually thought he had done in a couple times, Chris Haynes disagrees lol.

Scoots
06-13-2017, 09:23 AM
LeBron is amazing ... I do wonder if his incredible talent actually holds his teams back in some ways.

PurpleLynch
06-13-2017, 09:37 AM
LeBron is amazing ... I do wonder if his incredible talent actually holds his teams back in some ways.

Cavs without Lebron is only Irving isos and kick out to the shooter that is available(like OKC now to be more clear). They'd probably have problems even reaching the Nba Finals.

JasonJohnHorn
06-13-2017, 09:47 AM
LBJ has made it to the finals 8 times now, and 3 times he has been awarded the finals MVP.

With the lone exception of the first time the award was given out, and it went to Jerry West, the MVP has never been on the losing team.

I understand those who argue that the winning team should get MVP, so this isn't so much a conversation about who the 'MVP' in each series was, but rather who the best player on the court was.


So... of the 8 times that James has been to the finals, how many of those times was James the best player on the court?


I'd say it's pretty clear he was outclassed in his first two trips. Parker's assists and rebounding averages weren't as impressive, but his percentages were crazy. I'd say that both Dirk and Wade played better than him in 2010.

But since then, I don't think there has been a finals where James wasn't clearly the best player on the court.

In 2014, he averaged more than 10 points more than Leonard, who won the Finals MVP, and almost 20 points more than Iggy in 2015, not that scoring tells you everything, but those are significant differences that are hard to overlook.

This year, KD had an amazing series with some impressive percentages, even more impressive than LBJ's (which were likewise stellar), but that is in part due to the system and the fact that he's got so many teammates that create open shots for him. KD was already a 90/50/40 player coming into San Francisco, so this is not to suggest he is a 'system' player, but he had things a little easier than James. Where James was essentially given the ball and told to go iso and got the bulk of the attention from the Warrior, KD was allowed to often play off the ball. That makes a huge difference.

But the averages across the board... James posting the first ever triple-double average in the finals, and getting over a steal and a block a game to boot? 33.6/12/10/1/4/1 on 56% and 38% shooting? KD's 35 a game is also historically amazing, and 35/8.5/4.5/1.6/1 is clearly MVP calibre numbers, especially with 92/55/47 percentages.

Great performances from both, and I have no issue with KD getting the MVP, but I do think that James was the best player on the court this series.

How many times do you think James has been the best player on the court out of his 8 finals appearances? I got 6/8.


EDIT: Didn't see the other thread. Mods... feel free to just dump this one in there or delete it. My apologies.

Scoots
06-13-2017, 09:47 AM
Cavs without Lebron is only Irving isos and kick out to the shooter that is available(like OKC now to be more clear). They'd probably have problems even reaching the Nba Finals.

True, but LeBron's insane overall skill set tends to keep his teams fitting a certain mold and he dominates all aspects of play so unless there is another dominant star to pull back the team tends to develop into a team that can only succeed this way. If LeBron missing the first 60 games of next season I wonder if the Cavs wouldn't be stronger for it come the playoffs next year (assuming they make it) for them having learned how to play without LeBron always there?

da ThRONe
06-13-2017, 09:51 AM
Cavs without Lebron is only Irving isos and kick out to the shooter that is available(like OKC now to be more clear). They'd probably have problems even reaching the Nba Finals.

Problems even making the playoffs. Without LeBron they are behind Pacers, Raptors, Wizards, Celtics, Hawks, and Bucks. They are fighting with the Bulls, Pistons, Heat, and Hornets for the last two spot. That's how elite LeBron James is. This Cavs "big 3" is nowhere close to the Heat real big 3. Wade and Bosh were light years ahead of Irving and Love.

da ThRONe
06-13-2017, 09:57 AM
7. The only player better was 07 Duncan. That's it. He choked against Dallas and he should never be given a pass for it. Other than that situations just worked against him. Wade breaking down in 14, Love and Irving injuries in 15, and now going up against a far superior team this year. If crazy to think he gets help for losing Finals when nobody else gets blamed for not getting there in the first place.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 02:09 PM
We just saw the best LeBron we've ever seen. It would have been an absolute journey to deal with him if he had the mental aspect and physical locked down at the same time. He's clearly slowed down physically. I remember 3-4 years ago, the talk was that LeBron's athleticism was going to have him averaging like 20/6/6 by now. Now, we don't even look at him for his athleticism as much as it is his mental aspect of the game. It's honestly pathetic his career will be looked at by his Finals losses by those comparing his career. There was nothing more he could have done except make his damn FT's. Man, those were absolute buzzkills every time he missed.

TrueFan420
06-13-2017, 06:29 PM
Im happy Zaza and West got their rings. Maybe now they can go back to going for the money or role.
West is old doubt anyone pays up for his services but yea Zaza left some money on the table.

FlashBolt
06-13-2017, 06:32 PM
West is old doubt anyone pays up for his services but yea Zaza left some money on the table.

Warriors owe him lots of money for attacking Kawhi.

JordansBulls
06-14-2017, 11:02 PM
It was definitely KD, he played great on both ends, and most important; he got it done.

This and this with both teams being equal