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View Full Version : Bigger upset: Dirk over LeBron's Heat, or LeBron over Durant's Warriors?



mrblisterdundee
06-02-2017, 12:36 PM
When Dirk was 32, he beat the league's newest super-team of LeBron, Wade and Bosh as the lone star (ha ha; get it?) for Dallas. Miami took the first game; Dallas upset them in the second; Miami took back home court advantage in Dallas; then Dallas won three in a row and won the championship.
LeBron, 32, has more help than Dirk did in 2011, but he's facing a significantly better opponent than the Heat were in 2011. And Durant seems to be firing on all cylinders, compared to LeBron's relative disappearing act in the 2011 finals.
Which would be the bigger upset: LeBron beating the Super Death Lineup, or Dirk beating the Heatles?

LOb0
06-02-2017, 12:39 PM
That's pretty close honestly. I think 2011 was more of an upset. I think the Cavs have the talent to beat the Warriors, they just are horrible defensively. I didn't think the Mavs had the talent or any chance in that series.

tredigs
06-02-2017, 12:51 PM
Going into the playoffs the Heat were the favorites to win it all (and that never changed), with the Mavs being 20:1 to win it all (7th among playoff teams). From that viewpoint, the Mavs were far bigger underdogs. Entering the Finals itself, the Warriors were heavier favorites than the Heat that year though (-240 to -180). Bovada has the list from 2015 prior here: http://www.oddsshark.com/nba/nba-finals-historical-series-odds-list


According to PSD and JVG the Warriors are the biggest Finals favorites in history. Accordingly to betting markets/reality, they come in as the 4th highest favorites in the last 13 years.

mrblisterdundee
06-02-2017, 12:52 PM
I think LeBron pulling it out against the Super Death Lineup would be a bigger accomplishment.
Irving and Love are both one-way stars, whereas Curry is the only member of Warriors' Super Death Lineup (I include Iguodala at small forward) with subpar defense. Thompson's probably equal in his impact to Bosh in 2011, and he's only the Warriors' fourth-best player. The Warriors overall are deeper than the Heat.
That said, I don't see it happening with how weak the Cavaliers' defense has been. The Miami-Dallas games were close, whereas this is looking like a blowout. The Cavaliers will basically need to outshoot the greatest shooting team ever. Love would need to get molten-hot, along with Smith and Korver. I don't see it all coming together.

Chronz
06-02-2017, 01:23 PM
In retrospect, its not even close. You're talking about an experiment in Y1 with absolutely no depth behind the Big-3, no offensive system in place and a timely injury to Wade.

This is a record breaking team that added a top2-3 player in the game, has an offensive system in place and already knows its identity. Its an absurd comparison, Sonics vs Nuggs would be a more apt comparison.

LOb0
06-02-2017, 03:03 PM
In retrospect, its not even close. You're talking about an experiment in Y1 with absolutely no depth behind the Big-3, no offensive system in place and a timely injury to Wade.

This is a record breaking team that added a top2-3 player in the game, has an offensive system in place and already knows its identity. Its an absurd comparison, Sonics vs Nuggs would be a more apt comparison.

Even with all you said, if Bron even plays a little closer to his averages against the Mavs they still win that series. This Cavs team has the fire power and the tools to win this series if they had better defensive focus.

Chronz
06-02-2017, 03:32 PM
Even with all you said, if Bron even plays a little closer to his averages against the Mavs they still win that series. This Cavs team has the fire power and the tools to win this series if they had better defensive focus.
But the entire purpose of my post was that theres a reason these things didn't happen. Theres a reason why he was limited how he was, Dallas did this to everyone they faced in those playoffs. The bigger upset is undoubtedly this one, as the other was FAR more understandable given the facts I gave.

Miami was upset by a team of similar quality.

GS losing this year would be more like watching the Sonics choke against the Nuggets just because they are that much more talented.

I dont believe they have the firepower to win, I dont think they win last years finals if they replayed it again this year, it took that much for Cleveland to pull it out. That same team added KD, its a joke of a comparison as Miami isn't even Finals caliber without Bron.

tredigs
06-02-2017, 03:59 PM
The '04 Pistons (who barely squeeked by the Nets in the 2nd round... who's best player on the court was Richard Jefferson in the series) beating the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in '04 was a FAR bigger underdog story. As in - not comparable. And they beat the living piss out of the Lakers in 5 games. Again, the pity party for the Cavs can end now. They failed in game 1 - in large part to 'Bron - we will see how he and they fare going forward. We're crying to the moon about a team pegged at +200 to win the Finals (again, this coming in 4th in the last 13 years as far as being an underdog). It's pathetic, and hilarious, to watch those incessantly whining about this as if the Warriors are here playing the Celtics without Isiah Thomas (or something crazy easy like that).

Chronz
06-02-2017, 04:29 PM
The '04 Pistons (who barely squeeked by the Nets in the 2nd round... who's best player on the court was Richard Jefferson in the series) beating the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in '04 was a FAR bigger underdog story. As in - not comparable. And they beat the living piss out of the Lakers in 5 games. Again, the pity party for the Cavs can end now. They failed in game 1 - in large part to 'Bron - we will see how he and they fare going forward. We're crying to the moon about a team pegged at +200 to win the Finals (again, this coming in 4th in the last 13 years as far as being an underdog). It's pathetic, and hilarious, to watch those incessantly whining about this as if the Warriors are here playing the Celtics without Isiah Thomas (or something crazy easy like that).
Bad comp given the injuries during that run to both la and detroit. Detroit upon making the trade was the better team than the Lakers, especially with malone injured.

The only reason la was favored was due to the star appeal and nobody respected the east. That was an important series for me financially at the time so i remember taking advantage of the lines that year. Wish i could do the same this year but the story isn't the same.

Disagree with your synopsis of g1 too

FlashBolt
06-02-2017, 06:25 PM
Why do some people underrate that Mavs team? The one that SWEPT the Lakers and went 4-1 vs OKC? They weren't that bad at all. In retrospect, it was more-so LeBron choking than Dallas playing better than Miami. This GSW vs CLE is a totally different story. LeBron has to have an all-time great series to beat these Warriors. Dirk didn't have an all-time great series. He actually played slightly below average. The thing is, if it was LeBron's Warriors that lost to KD's Cleveland, he's automatically disqualified from being better than MJ. But the Miami vs Dallas series showed me that if LeBron didn't play well, Miami loses. This GSW vs CLE series tells me that even if LeBron plays well, they may still get blown out. Not even close. LeBron over these Warriors would be one of the bigger upsets. More-so than last year.

WaDe03
06-02-2017, 06:33 PM
LeBron over the Warriors. The Warriors are 15 deep that heat team was 3 deep, 1 deep in 4th quarters.

Bostonjorge
06-02-2017, 06:45 PM
Dirk Championship over Miami was the greatest underdog story ever. James joined a playoff team with a league MVP candidate in wade. They added Bosh and Mike Miller. The big 3 pointed out how a single star could not win a championship. Once Miami reached the finals they met up against Dallas.

Dallas was a team who always got knocked out of the playoffs. They always found away to lose. Like Dirk as a 1st seed losing to a 8th seed by total dismantling. This same Dirk took a team full of players other teams threw away. Dirk took his throwaway team and led them past the first Super stacked team. Wade and Bosh both played like Superstars but the choke was "Lebron level". Wade and Bosh took their games to championship level but James played like the worst basketball player I have ever seen. Super Wade and Super Bosh couldn't even carry that version of James.

James left Cleveland to form a Super Team. His reason was no one could pull a Dirk and single handily win a title and definitely no one could beat a super stacked Miami team. Yet that's actually what happened. While still being a playoff joke Dirk turned James into the poster boy for Finals Joke. It was the biggest choke in history of competition.

The superstar level Bosh and Wade where playing at was to much for Dalllas. It took the biggest choke in history for Dallas to even have a fighting chance. James took the choke to new hights and Dallas just needed to show up. Even tho Dallas is known to choke away big games, James had arrived as the biggest choke artists of all times. Easily the biggest choke in the world of sports.

WaDe03
06-02-2017, 06:57 PM
Dirk Championship over Miami was the greatest underdog story ever. James joined a playoff team with a league MVP candidate in wade. They added Bosh and Mike Miller. The big 3 pointed out how a single star could not win a championship. Once Miami reached the finals they met up against Dallas.

Dallas was a team who always got knocked out of the playoffs. They always found away to lose. Like Dirk as a 1st seed losing to a 8th seed by total dismantling. This same Dirk took a team full of players other teams threw away. Dirk took his throwaway team and led them past the first Super stacked team. Wade and Bosh both played like Superstars but the choke was "Lebron level". Wade and Bosh took their games to championship level but James played like the worst basketball player I have ever seen. Super Wade and Super Bosh couldn't even carry that version of James.

James left Cleveland to form a Super Team. His reason was no one could pull a Dirk and single handily win a title and definitely no one could beat a super stacked Miami team. Yet that's actually what happened. While still being a playoff joke Dirk turned James into the poster boy for Finals Joke. It was the biggest choke in history of competition.

The superstar level Bosh and Wade where playing at was to much for Dalllas. It took the biggest choke in history for Dallas to even have a fighting chance. James took the choke to new hights and Dallas just needed to show up. Even tho Dallas is known to choke away big games, James had arrived as the biggest choke artists of all times. Easily the biggest choke in the world of sports.

I'm really not sure how LeBron just completely shut down in the 4th quarters of those games, it's damn near unbelievable. I still remember LeBron looking off Wade and passing to Chalmers who then turned it over and Wade chewing LeBron out on live tv in front of everyone. I wish we could go back and give all LeBrons possessions in those 4th quarters to Wade and Bosh, Wade may have put 06 numbers up again if this were the case and he was still the best player in the series.

LOb0
06-02-2017, 08:11 PM
But the entire purpose of my post was that theres a reason these things didn't happen. Theres a reason why he was limited how he was, Dallas did this to everyone they faced in those playoffs. The bigger upset is undoubtedly this one, as the other was FAR more understandable given the facts I gave.

Miami was upset by a team of similar quality.

GS losing this year would be more like watching the Sonics choke against the Nuggets just because they are that much more talented.

I dont believe they have the firepower to win, I dont think they win last years finals if they replayed it again this year, it took that much for Cleveland to pull it out. That same team added KD, its a joke of a comparison as Miami isn't even Finals caliber without Bron.

Lmao you're giving Dallas the credit for Lebrons choke job? Stop it. They didn't limit him.

I think last year's Cavs team wins even earlier than 7 games if Bron was agressive in game 1, 2 and 4.

JordansBulls
06-02-2017, 11:17 PM
No contest, Dirk over the Heat for the fact Dirk had to go thru LA, OKC and Miami beating a 1st team and 2nd teamer on each team all nba. Not to mention beating 3 of the top 5 players in the league as well.

Saddletramp
06-03-2017, 03:16 AM
In retrospect, its not even close. You're talking about an experiment in Y1 with absolutely no depth behind the Big-3, no offensive system in place and a timely injury to Wade.

This is a record breaking team that added a top2-3 player in the game, has an offensive system in place and already knows its identity. Its an absurd comparison, Sonics vs Nuggs would be a more apt comparison.

Stopped reading after this. On point and nothing further to discuss.

LOb0
06-03-2017, 03:32 AM
Stopped reading after this. On point and nothing further to discuss.

Unless you disagree with him.

FOXHOUND
06-03-2017, 08:09 AM
Unless you disagree with him.

Yeah, I don't get that basis either. Only 7 players for Dallas averaged 10 MPG or more in the 2011 Finals, and it's not like JJ Barea or DeShawn Stevenson (6 and 7 at 21.7 and 17.2 MPG) were amazing or anything. They only had 3 players average 10 PPG or more in that series, Dirk 26, Terry 18, Marion 13.7. That Dallas team was hardly deep by any stretch of the imagination.

Miami had 8 players average 10 MPG and 4 players average 10 PPG or more, Wade 26.5, Bosh 18.5, LeBron 17.8, Chalmers 11.8. They also had more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than Dallas for the series while averaging just 2.4 less PTS.

Miami lost by 2 points in game 2 as LeBron scored 2 points in the 4th on 0-4/0-2/2-2 with 1 assist and 1 turnover. They lost the 4th quarter 24-18. They lost by 3 points in game 4 as LeBron scored 0 points in the 4th on 0-1/0-0/0-0 with 1 assist and 2 turnovers. He was 3-11 in the game overall for 8 points. They lost the 4th quarter 21-14. They win those two games and Miami sweeps Dallas.

I mean, it's very obvious why Miami lost to Dallas and it had nothing to do with a lack of talent or depth.

lakerfan85
06-03-2017, 09:11 AM
I pick Dirk because Lebron hasn't beat the Warriors yet..

Chronz
06-03-2017, 01:07 PM
Lmao you're giving Dallas the credit for Lebrons choke job? Stop it. They didn't limit him.

I think last year's Cavs team wins even earlier than 7 games if Bron was agressive in game 1, 2 and 4.
Of course i do, their zone was perfect.

I don't think it's as simple as just be more aggressive. He read the situation and adjusted accordingly. That's not instantaneous imo

Bostonjorge
06-03-2017, 03:37 PM
Miami could of won rather easily if they just sat Lebron. Playing James is what cost Miami the Championship. Signing James is what cost Miami the championship that first year. Wade with Bosh wins you a championship that year but James choke job was legendary. James getting hurt would of helped Miami and Dallas would have no answer.

Dallas didn't even re sign any of the core pieces after that year. They knew they just witnessed the biggest choke is sports history. Dallas did it with a bunch of throw away players who got thrown away after they won. Like Desahwn Stevenson, after he shut down James Dallas let him walk for 1 year 2 mill. James choke play destroyed the Dallas roster and took away their glory. It's was more James choking then Dallas winning. So Dallas let the whole roster walk.

Mr.B
06-03-2017, 04:06 PM
Of course i do, their zone was perfect.

I don't think it's as simple as just be more aggressive. He read the situation and adjusted accordingly. That's not instantaneous imo

Also when they went man to man Marion did a very good job guarding Labron. He clearly got in Labron's head. Marion was actually very good that entire run.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-03-2017, 04:06 PM
The Dirk team because I didn't think coming in that the Mavs were anywhere near good enough to beat the 3 other teams before the finals.

Saddletramp
06-03-2017, 04:44 PM
Miami could of won rather easily if they just sat Lebron. Playing James is what cost Miami the Championship. Signing James is what cost Miami the championship that first year. Wade with Bosh wins you a championship that year but James choke job was legendary. James getting hurt would of helped Miami and Dallas would have no answer.

Dallas didn't even re sign any of the core pieces after that year. They knew they just witnessed the biggest choke is sports history. Dallas did it with a bunch of throw away players who got thrown away after they won. Like Desahwn Stevenson, after he shut down James Dallas let him walk for 1 year 2 mill. James choke play destroyed the Dallas roster and took away their glory. It's was more James choking then Dallas winning. So Dallas let the whole roster walk.

You know that no one takes you seriously right? Garbage like your first paragraph is just flat out idiotic.

LOb0
06-03-2017, 05:13 PM
Of course i do, their zone was perfect.

I don't think it's as simple as just be more aggressive. He read the situation and adjusted accordingly. That's not instantaneous imo

Adjusted as in played bad. I had no idea a zone could prevent you from attempting shots.

LOb0
06-03-2017, 05:14 PM
Miami could of won rather easily if they just sat Lebron. Playing James is what cost Miami the Championship. Signing James is what cost Miami the championship that first year. Wade with Bosh wins you a championship that year but James choke job was legendary. James getting hurt would of helped Miami and Dallas would have no answer.

Dallas didn't even re sign any of the core pieces after that year. They knew they just witnessed the biggest choke is sports history. Dallas did it with a bunch of throw away players who got thrown away after they won. Like Desahwn Stevenson, after he shut down James Dallas let him walk for 1 year 2 mill. James choke play destroyed the Dallas roster and took away their glory. It's was more James choking then Dallas winning. So Dallas let the whole roster walk.

That might be going too far. Who would play in place of James?

Bostonjorge
06-03-2017, 06:36 PM
That might be going too far. Who would play in place of James?

In the 4th anyone

Going into game 6 James had a total of 11 points in ALL the 4th quarters he played so far. 11 points. In the elimination game James ended the 4th with 7 points. Extremely passive and did not want the ball.

Going up against Dallas anyone could of taken James spot. Anyone on Miami's bench for example. 11 points in the 4th going into game 6 is not hard to replace.

GREATNESS ONE
06-03-2017, 06:38 PM
That might be going too far. Who would play in place of James?

You could fill in another max slot FA, James would've went back to Cle/orNYK and the Eastern conference title game would have been an amazing showdown.

WITZ
06-03-2017, 06:57 PM
Bron beating the warriors easily... You have a 73 win team that adds the 2nd best player in the league, 4 allstar players, the unanimous Mvp who many where claiming as the best player in the league last year easy choice for me.

Hangtime
06-03-2017, 07:36 PM
That Miami team was formed primarily to counter the Boston Celtics big three. They were the beast of the east. And they were beating Lebron and Wade's teams. Boston would have probably gone to 4 straight finals appearances from 08 to 11 if not for the injury to KG in 09 and the Miami squad in 11. After they finally disposed of Boston there was no doubt that they were gonna roll Dallas. Of course Lebron did something that is still unexplainable to me till this day.

I know the Warriors are heavy favorites here but I still think the Cavs could manage this into a 6 game series at the very least. They obviously need to make some defensive adjustments. I expect them to do that. They have guys who can score. If I were the Cavs I would take my chances with Klay in his slump. If the guy heats up so be it. They can't just give Durant open lanes and not stay at home on Steph.

I just don't feel like these Cavs are completely outmatched like I felt the Mavs were in 2011. These Cavs still have a trio of playmakers/scorers and others who can hit their open shots. They need some serious contribution from Tristan and the bench.

Chronz
06-03-2017, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I don't get that basis either. Only 7 players for Dallas averaged 10 MPG or more in the 2011 Finals, and it's not like JJ Barea or DeShawn Stevenson (6 and 7 at 21.7 and 17.2 MPG) were amazing or anything. They only had 3 players average 10 PPG or more in that series, Dirk 26, Terry 18, Marion 13.7. That Dallas team was hardly deep by any stretch of the imagination.
Well thats because Dallas was so deep they had players they could use in one series but stash away in another, they were the ultimate swiss army knife that could match up with ANYONE those playoffs. JJ Barea was huge tho, I dont know how you can downplay how important his penetration and timely buckets were. Dude definitely would've started for Miami over the likes of Bibby.


Miami had 8 players average 10 MPG and 4 players average 10 PPG or more, Wade 26.5, Bosh 18.5, LeBron 17.8, Chalmers 11.8. They also had more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than Dallas for the series while averaging just 2.4 less PTS.

Point?


Miami lost by 2 points in game 2 as LeBron scored 2 points in the 4th on 0-4/0-2/2-2 with 1 assist and 1 turnover. They lost the 4th quarter 24-18. They lost by 3 points in game 4 as LeBron scored 0 points in the 4th on 0-1/0-0/0-0 with 1 assist and 2 turnovers. He was 3-11 in the game overall for 8 points. They lost the 4th quarter 21-14. They win those two games and Miami sweeps Dallas.

Yeah and if they lacked the defensive talent/system Im sure Bron plays better, I side with Cuban on this. To simply chalk it up to a player choking ignores the very real effort that goes into focusing on Bron to such a degree. I dont see Miami sweeping Dallas but if all you're trying to say is they could have won had Bron played better then no ****. Still doesn't undermine anything I've been saying.


I mean, it's very obvious why Miami lost to Dallas and it had nothing to do with a lack of talent or depth.

I disagree completely, its clear as day that Miami was playing 3v5 and I dont care how good your top 3 are, you cant have absolute zero's at the 1 and 5. You also didn't mention the lack of an offensive system and that it was Y1 for Miami while Dallas had far more chemistry and continuity.

I had Miami winning and Bron played below himself but you guys take it too far, I've seen great players choke far harder far sooner than the NBA Finals. Some of you just dont know your history (looking at you celtics/kobe fan)

valade16
06-03-2017, 08:44 PM
Going into the playoffs the Heat were the favorites to win it all (and that never changed), with the Mavs being 20:1 to win it all (7th among playoff teams). From that viewpoint, the Mavs were far bigger underdogs. Entering the Finals itself, the Warriors were heavier favorites than the Heat that year though (-240 to -180). Bovada has the list from 2015 prior here: http://www.oddsshark.com/nba/nba-finals-historical-series-odds-list


According to PSD and JVG the Warriors are the biggest Finals favorites in history. Accordingly to betting markets/reality, they come in as the 4th highest favorites in the last 13 years.


The '04 Pistons (who barely squeeked by the Nets in the 2nd round... who's best player on the court was Richard Jefferson in the series) beating the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in '04 was a FAR bigger underdog story. As in - not comparable. And they beat the living piss out of the Lakers in 5 games. Again, the pity party for the Cavs can end now. They failed in game 1 - in large part to 'Bron - we will see how he and they fare going forward. We're crying to the moon about a team pegged at +200 to win the Finals (again, this coming in 4th in the last 13 years as far as being an underdog). It's pathetic, and hilarious, to watch those incessantly whining about this as if the Warriors are here playing the Celtics without Isiah Thomas (or something crazy easy like that).

Never seen someone work so hard to convince people their team isn't that good.

The Warriors are going to wax the Cavs and it's because they're that much better than every other team in the league. Why are you even mad about that? You should be ecstatic.

R. Johnson#3
06-03-2017, 09:28 PM
Dirk came up big in so many tight spots through out the whole 2011 post season. He was insanely clutch.

tredigs
06-03-2017, 09:57 PM
Never seen someone work so hard to convince people their team isn't that good.

The Warriors are going to wax the Cavs and it's because they're that much better than every other team in the league. Why are you even mad about that? You should be ecstatic.
Lol try so hard. The **** are you talking about? I know the Warriors are incredible. The joke here is that the Cavs superteam are some lowly David. Clear underdogs? Yes. Do I expect them to lose? You BET I do.

Were the Cavs MASSIVE favorites in their conference? You betcha. Were they nowhere close to the biggest underdogs in the past decade in a Finals (as I showed you clowns)? You betcha. I posted facts. What do you dispute from my posts?

JordansBulls
06-03-2017, 10:06 PM
Dirk's was a bigger upset because at the time Miami had the top 2 players on the floor and arguably top 2-3 players in the league as well. At least now you can argue Lebron is the best on the floor and the champs, so I wouldn't call that as much of an upset.

LOb0
06-03-2017, 10:51 PM
In the 4th anyone

Going into game 6 James had a total of 11 points in ALL the 4th quarters he played so far. 11 points. In the elimination game James ended the 4th with 7 points. Extremely passive and did not want the ball.

Going up against Dallas anyone could of taken James spot. Anyone on Miami's bench for example. 11 points in the 4th going into game 6 is not hard to replace.

Ill agree with that. He was absolutely horrible in the 4th.

Saddletramp
06-04-2017, 01:10 AM
Ill agree with that. He was absolutely horrible in the 4th.

Kobe's been awful in the 4 at times, too. Doubt BJ up there would say that the Lakers should've benched him.

FlashBolt
06-04-2017, 01:47 AM
I blame LeBron for that loss but to Dallas's point, they did play zone. Mark Cuban was actually really pissed about everyone just saying LeBron played bad but that they ignored how Dallas just played zones all series. He's kinda right but there was no excuse for a great player like LeBron to not be able to adjust like that. I'm sure he has faced many teams that implemented the same strategy.

FOXHOUND
06-04-2017, 07:36 AM
Well thats because Dallas was so deep they had players they could use in one series but stash away in another, they were the ultimate swiss army knife that could match up with ANYONE those playoffs. JJ Barea was huge tho, I dont know how you can downplay how important his penetration and timely buckets were. Dude definitely would've started for Miami over the likes of Bibby.

Yeah but they could basically only use 7 players vs Miami, so what does it matter? They used Peja and Haywood throughout the rest of the playoffs more but neither could get on the court much vs Miami. Dirk had to play some minutes at C in that series. Barea definitely had some huge plays, but overall he scored 8.8 PPG on .382/.333/.714. He's not exactly much of a defender, either.

Bibby starting was more a formality and lineup thing than anything, kinda like Zaza for the Warriors. He played just 17.8 MPG while Chalmers played 28.9. Chalmers averaged 11.8 PPG on .426/.400/.739, hit a series high 14 3s and averaged 1.7 steals a game. Chalmers didn't play bad that series, he was better than Barea overall.


Point?

That Miami played more players, had more players in double figures and led Dallas in almost every statistical category as a team over the series despite losing. If depth was really the issue, don't you think that would have not happened? Can add another, despite LeBron having a series high 24 turnovers, Miami had less turnovers than Dallas too.



Yeah and if they lacked the defensive talent/system Im sure Bron plays better, I side with Cuban on this. To simply chalk it up to a player choking ignores the very real effort that goes into focusing on Bron to such a degree. I dont see Miami sweeping Dallas but if all you're trying to say is they could have won had Bron played better then no ****. Still doesn't undermine anything I've been saying.

Of course Dallas' defense had something to do with it, I don't think anyone has ever suggested otherwise. Wade was playing the same defense though, why didn't it kill him? To say they focused on LeBron more than Wade would be facetious. It was a zone defense, after all. The entire point is that it's a team wide defense and Wade was clearly more deadly than LeBron. What about when they put Terry and Barea to D up LeBron in the post and he completely froze?

There's good defense and then there's choking. LeBron suffered from both that series.

Miami won games 1 and 3, so if they don't collapse in the 4th quarters of games 2 and 4 then they are literally sweeping them. Just hitting 1 of those 4th quarter 3s in game 2 and just scoring 12 points instead of 8 in game 4 was the difference between a sweep and a 2-2 tie. It really was that close. Just 7 points over 2 games for LeBron.


I disagree completely, its clear as day that Miami was playing 3v5 and I dont care how good your top 3 are, you cant have absolute zero's at the 1 and 5. You also didn't mention the lack of an offensive system and that it was Y1 for Miami while Dallas had far more chemistry and continuity.

Saying that Haslem and Chalmers, who were 4th and 5th for them in MPG, were absolute zeroes is beyond try hard. Not to mention that the job Miami did defensively on Dirk, led by Bosh and Haslem, goes just as under the radar. They held Dirk to 41% shooting that series with him coming in during a legendary playoff run. He still had huge 4th quarters, but they certainly did their job of slowing him down.

Why was there a lack of an offensive system? They had an offseason together, didn't they? It's not like they got there in a midseason trade. There certainly wasn't any issues with the offensive system when they bulldozed through the east with a 12-3 record, including a 4-1 defeat of the 62-win Bulls and their #1 ranked D in the ECF.


I had Miami winning and Bron played below himself but you guys take it too far, I've seen great players choke far harder far sooner than the NBA Finals. Some of you just dont know your history (looking at you celtics/kobe fan)

How is it taking it too far when LeBron's drop of 8.9 in PPG in the Finals was the worst in NBA history? How is it taking it too far when Mario Chalmers scored more points in the 4th quarter that series than LeBron James? That is pretty safely secured as the biggest Finals choke in NBA history, as far as an individual player is concerned. Curry choked last year too but not to the level of LeBron in 2011.

jason6692
06-04-2017, 09:15 AM
Give my mavs some damn credit dirk was unbelievable and could not be guarded maybe besides game 6. We were a 12 deep team we even had no caron butler who was vital prior to his injury. We beat the 2x defending lakers had then ubdr4ssing trying to fight us had odom do crack shortly after game 4 and gave bynum nightmares of barea who shoulda got 5 points on the flagrant 2 btw. AND shawn marion and our zone defense dismantled lebron. Just how dirk dismantled ibaka arguably a top 5 defensive player at the time. Dirk torched tbat dude we were so good that year every time we were down 15 or more it felt like 1

Hangtime
06-04-2017, 11:35 AM
Dirk had one of the most memorable playoff runs ever. But it wasn't Dirk I was worried about. I expected Dirk to continue to be a force. I was waiting on the rest of the Mavs to fold. Dallas had some epic playoff chokes since their run to the finals in 06. Thats why nobody was taking them serious when they went up against the Miami trio. Who ran through Boston and Chicago and looked unstoppable.

People are acting like this Cavs team is the one Lebron put on his back two years ago when he lost both Love and Erving.

LOb0
06-04-2017, 12:17 PM
Dirk had one of the most memorable playoff runs ever. But it wasn't Dirk I was worried about. I expected Dirk to continue to be a force. I was waiting on the rest of the Mavs to fold. Dallas had some epic playoff chokes since their run to the finals in 06. Thats why nobody was taking them serious when they went up against the Miami trio. Who ran through Boston and Chicago and looked unstoppable.

People are acting like this Cavs team is the one Lebron put on his back two years ago when he lost both Love and Erving.

Exactly. That finals would have been more shocking than both of these.

Mr.B
06-04-2017, 12:23 PM
Yeah but they could basically only use 7 players vs Miami, so what does it matter? They used Peja and Haywood throughout the rest of the playoffs more but neither could get on the court much vs Miami. Dirk had to play some minutes at C in that series. Barea definitely had some huge plays, but overall he scored 8.8 PPG on .382/.333/.714. He's not exactly much of a defender, either.

Bibby starting was more a formality and lineup thing than anything, kinda like Zaza for the Warriors. He played just 17.8 MPG while Chalmers played 28.9. Chalmers averaged 11.8 PPG on .426/.400/.739, hit a series high 14 3s and averaged 1.7 steals a game. Chalmers didn't play bad that series, he was better than Barea overall.



That Miami played more players, had more players in double figures and led Dallas in almost every statistical category as a team over the series despite losing. If depth was really the issue, don't you think that would have not happened? Can add another, despite LeBron having a series high 24 turnovers, Miami had less turnovers than Dallas too.




Of course Dallas' defense had something to do with it, I don't think anyone has ever suggested otherwise. Wade was playing the same defense though, why didn't it kill him? To say they focused on LeBron more than Wade would be facetious. It was a zone defense, after all. The entire point is that it's a team wide defense and Wade was clearly more deadly than LeBron. What about when they put Terry and Barea to D up LeBron in the post and he completely froze?

There's good defense and then there's choking. LeBron suffered from both that series.

Miami won games 1 and 3, so if they don't collapse in the 4th quarters of games 2 and 4 then they are literally sweeping them. Just hitting 1 of those 4th quarter 3s in game 2 and just scoring 12 points instead of 8 in game 4 was the difference between a sweep and a 2-2 tie. It really was that close. Just 7 points over 2 games for LeBron.



Saying that Haslem and Chalmers, who were 4th and 5th for them in MPG, were absolute zeroes is beyond try hard. Not to mention that the job Miami did defensively on Dirk, led by Bosh and Haslem, goes just as under the radar. They held Dirk to 41% shooting that series with him coming in during a legendary playoff run. He still had huge 4th quarters, but they certainly did their job of slowing him down.

Why was there a lack of an offensive system? They had an offseason together, didn't they? It's not like they got there in a midseason trade. There certainly wasn't any issues with the offensive system when they bulldozed through the east with a 12-3 record, including a 4-1 defeat of the 62-win Bulls and their #1 ranked D in the ECF.



How is it taking it too far when LeBron's drop of 8.9 in PPG in the Finals was the worst in NBA history? How is it taking it too far when Mario Chalmers scored more points in the 4th quarter that series than LeBron James? That is pretty safely secured as the biggest Finals choke in NBA history, as far as an individual player is concerned. Curry choked last year too but not to the level of LeBron in 2011.

I'm a huge Mavs fan and I can agree that there was a very good chance that Miami could have swept Dallas. Mavs had epic comebacks in games 2 and 4. There are several reasons that happened in my opinion. First, Dallas just seemed more hungry. Dirk basically hit every shot he took down the stretch in both those games. He was mixing it up and attacking the paint as well as hitting some very tough mid range shots. The Heat just couldn't get a stop. Deshawn Stevenson also hit some really huge 3's in both games. Barea seemed to be able to break down the Heat defense at will. I believe it was game 2 the Mavs went on like a 20-2 run within the last few minutes of the game.

Marion spent a good portion of the series covering Labron and did an amazing job getting inside his head. There was a point in both games where you could clearly see Marion almost bullying Labron. At one point he scored on him and you could see Marion calling him a *****. Then when things really started to get chippy Carlisle would switch to a zone and it seemed to throw Labron completely out of rhythm. Whenever Barea and Terry would have to switch off on Labron he wouldn't take advantage of the mismatch. He would pass the ball instead of attacking. The one time I remember he did try to backdown Barea and take advantage of the mismatch Barea drew an offensive foul on him.

Third I think the Heat were just too over confident. They thought there was no way they could lose that series. They severely underestimated Dirk and how bad he wanted to win a title. Labron and Wade (more Wade than Labron) even mocked Dirk when he was sick and played with 103 temp. I guess maybe Wade thought the NBA was going to gift him another title against the Mavs like they did in '06. The Heat failed to realize how much that '06 Finals stuck in the crawl of Dirk and Terry. There was no way Dirk was going to fold and lay down in that 2011 Finals. Luckily for the Mavs Labron did.

On paper Miami was much more talented than the Mavs from top to bottom. They had two MVP candidates in their prime and a 3rd all star. Dallas had 1 second team all star (that's it!) in Dirk. You can't judge heart on paper though and during that series the Mavs had more.

Mr.B
06-04-2017, 12:35 PM
Give my mavs some damn credit dirk was unbelievable and could not be guarded maybe besides game 6. We were a 12 deep team we even had no caron butler who was vital prior to his injury. We beat the 2x defending lakers had then ubdr4ssing trying to fight us had odom do crack shortly after game 4 and gave bynum nightmares of barea who shoulda got 5 points on the flagrant 2 btw. AND shawn marion and our zone defense dismantled lebron. Just how dirk dismantled ibaka arguably a top 5 defensive player at the time. Dirk torched tbat dude we were so good that year every time we were down 15 or more it felt like 1


They easily had the toughest road to a Championship than any team I've seen in a LONG time. First they beat a good Portland team. Then like you said, they SWEPT the 2 time defending Champs during Phil Jackson's swan song in LA. Lakers had every bit of motivation to win that series. Instead they got embarrassed (and embarrassed themselves) in epic fashion.

Then they beat a loaded OKC team with Westbrook, KD, Ibaka, AND Harden. That's 3 MVP caliber players and one of the best young big men in the league (at the time).

After all that they go into Miami and beat the super team with the league's best player and probably second best player (at the time Wade was widely considered by many the 2nd best).

I said it my last post (and say it again here) that the Mavs had 1 All Star player on that team. And Dirk wasn't even a starter in the all star game. I don't care who disagrees or what excuses they come up with, that was a damn impressive Championship run by the Mavs.

FlashBolt
06-04-2017, 01:12 PM
Dirk shot 42% from the field in the Finals. So we're giving him TOO much credit. It was Dallas's zoning that ultimately won them the series along with LeBron not adjusting to it/being too passive. Dallas had a top three defense in the playoffs and with Chandler handling the post, it wasn't exactly a terrible defensive team some of you try to make it seem. Dallas could play defense. Dirk wasn't great. He was good enough. LeBron choked. No ifs and buts about it.

valade16
06-04-2017, 02:25 PM
Lol try so hard. The **** are you talking about? I know the Warriors are incredible. The joke here is that the Cavs superteam are some lowly David. Clear underdogs? Yes. Do I expect them to lose? You BET I do.

Were the Cavs MASSIVE favorites in their conference? You betcha. Were they nowhere close to the biggest underdogs in the past decade in a Finals (as I showed you clowns)? You betcha. I posted facts. What do you dispute from my posts?

Well Vegas is about to lose a lot of money if they thought Cleveland had a prayer.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19533312/nba-finals-2017-espn-forecast-predicting-golden-state-warriors-vs-cleveland-cavaliers

Updated projections give Cleveland about a fart's chance in the wind of winning, seems like as soon as we were able to get any actual data on how the series would go (not just projections), everyone adjusted to show what we all know: Cleveland is far inferior to these Warriors.

ODB13
06-04-2017, 04:15 PM
LeBron lost any claim to the all-time throne in this series. He joined a super team, and then GAVE UP to a vastly less talented team.

Sadly for him, he can't undo that.

tredigs
06-04-2017, 04:28 PM
Well Vegas is about to lose a lot of money if they thought Cleveland had a prayer.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19533312/nba-finals-2017-espn-forecast-predicting-golden-state-warriors-vs-cleveland-cavaliers

Updated projections give Cleveland about a fart's chance in the wind of winning, seems like as soon as we were able to get any actual data on how the series would go (not just projections), everyone adjusted to show what we all know: Cleveland is far inferior to these Warriors.

Not really how it works. The series numbers are this drastic because A) game 1 was a blowout and B) 538's numbers are taking the regular season into account. They themselves admitted that it does not entirely properly rate the Cavs current state on account of that. It's not the most lopsided series we have seen. Not by a long shot (this takes nothing away from my view of the Warriors or how dominant they are - which you seem to still not be grasping from my posts). And if Lebron did not turn the ball over like James Harden in a closeout game during G1, we'd likely be having a far different discussion right now. I'm willing to bet he does not repeat that performance. That said, a Warriors sweep still would not shock me, and my prediction remains Warriors in 5. The Cavs are a STACKED team with a top 3 player in history in his prime, but that won't be enough in this one.

LOb0
06-04-2017, 04:35 PM
Not really how it works. The series numbers are this drastic because A) game 1 was a blowout and B) 538's numbers are taking the regular season into account. They themselves admitted that it does not entirely properly rate the Cavs current state on account of that. It's not the most lopsided series we have seen. Not by a long shot (this takes nothing away from my view of the Warriors or how dominant they are - which you seem to still not be grasping from my posts). And if Lebron did not turn the ball over like James Harden in a closeout game during G1, we'd likely be having a far different discussion right now. I'm willing to bet he does not repeat that performance. That said, a Warriors sweep still would not shock me, and my prediction remains Warriors in 5. The Cavs are a STACKED team with a top 3 player in history in his prime, but that won't be enough in this one.

What about in terms of other finals? Was 2011 worse odds wise? I mean the Cavs are the defending champions with the best player in the world.

Chronz
06-04-2017, 05:12 PM
Well Vegas is about to lose a lot of money if they thought Cleveland had a prayer.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19533312/nba-finals-2017-espn-forecast-predicting-golden-state-warriors-vs-cleveland-cavaliers

Updated projections give Cleveland about a fart's chance in the wind of winning, seems like as soon as we were able to get any actual data on how the series would go (not just projections), everyone adjusted to show what we all know: Cleveland is far inferior to these Warriors.

Odds are fluid, what matters will always be what happened on the court. It just sucks that I cant profit off of Vegas this year, last year my girl took the gamble on Bron and it paid off, this year we're both kind of just ignoring the odds. This **** is over. Its not like 2004 when the Pistons were CLEARLY the better team (their numbers upon acquiring Sheed made them the greatest defensive team in history) even Phil told his team they didn't understand how much better Detroit was than them. When I saw how highly the Lakers were favored it was like taking candy from a cripple.

I know what this is, this is a super team that added KD. Anything short of a sweep or win in 5 is beneath them.

LOb0
06-04-2017, 05:50 PM
Odds are fluid, what matters will always be what happened on the court. It just sucks that I cant profit off of Vegas this year, last year my girl took the gamble on Bron and it paid off, this year we're both kind of just ignoring the odds. This **** is over. Its not like 2004 when the Pistons were CLEARLY the better team (their numbers upon acquiring Sheed made them the greatest defensive team in history) even Phil told his team they didn't understand how much better Detroit was than them. When I saw how highly the Lakers were favored it was like taking candy from a cripple.

I know what this is, this is a super team that added KD. Anything short of a sweep or win in 5 is beneath them.

If it wasn't for point spreads where you literally have to learn garbage time players, i'd bet all the time.

Chronz
06-04-2017, 06:50 PM
Kobe's been awful in the 4 at times, too. Doubt BJ up there would say that the Lakers should've benched him.

LOL, yeah that was hilarious. Far from the greatest choke, Bron still contributed, just well beneath his norm and he was deferring to Wade.



Yeah but they could basically only use 7 players vs Miami, so what does it matter? They used Peja and Haywood throughout the rest of the playoffs more but neither could get on the court much vs Miami.
You dont think having fresh guys you can trot out one series and others for another is an advantage then I dont know what to tell you. Peja was huge in destroying the Lakers but was rendered unplayable against Miami. Carlisle was quick to adapt, its like giving a master builder the perfect tool box to dismantle a top heavy team.


Dirk had to play some minutes at C in that series.
I'd argue that maybe you could get away with that more against Miami since they didn't have the brutes/rim rushers nor the spacing to stretch him out. Either way, not sure what it matters considering the Heat were at their best offensively when Chandler was off the court.


Barea definitely had some huge plays, but overall he scored 8.8 PPG on .382/.333/.714. He's not exactly much of a defender, either.

Its more about the unit and the diversity of attack he provided. His penetration was pivotal, that only shows up in team stats. As for his defense, which PG on Miami was suppose to expose him?


Bibby starting was more a formality and lineup thing than anything, kinda like Zaza for the Warriors. He played just 17.8 MPG while Chalmers played 28.9. Chalmers averaged 11.8 PPG on .426/.400/.739, hit a series high 14 3s and averaged 1.7 steals a game. Chalmers didn't play bad that series, he was better than Barea overall.

Those were a wasted 18 MPG is my point and if you want to have Chalmers start then having Barea come off the bench would be huge while any of the Big-3 rested. Miami lacked that kind of depth tho. They were playing guys who had been injured all year (Udonis/Miller), guys who would go onto retire immediately after the series (Bibby/Big-Z/Juwan) hell, even Jamal Magloire made a guest appearance before retiring. Yeah, just cuz your playing guys doesn't mean your deep, especially if your scrambling to find anyone who could contribute that you whip out Eddie House out of nowhere for the first time in weeks.


That Miami played more players, had more players in double figures and led Dallas in almost every statistical category as a team over the series despite losing. If depth was really the issue, don't you think that would have not happened? Can add another, despite LeBron having a series high 24 turnovers, Miami had less turnovers than Dallas too.

Hell no, lemme use a Bill Simmons quote from his retro diary on G6 to explain:
Eddie House misses a wide-open 3. For the record, House played three minutes in Round 2; two minutes in Round 3; zero minutes in the first four Finals games; three minutes in Game 5; and 21 minutes in Game 6. That’s all you need to know about the 2010-11 Miami Heat.

Later in the article;
Miami runs their season-ending play for a guy who’s played nearly three times as many minutes in Game 6 as he did in the previous 15 playoff games … and you’re not gonna believe this, but Eddie House missed the wide-open 3. The lesson, as always: Three players can get you to the Finals, but eight players have to win it.

He mentions how Bibby was no longer a viable option, just because your playing some body doesn't mean your deep.


Of course Dallas' defense had something to do with it, I don't think anyone has ever suggested otherwise. Wade was playing the same defense though, why didn't it kill him? To say they focused on LeBron more than Wade would be facetious. It was a zone defense, after all. The entire point is that it's a team wide defense and Wade was clearly more deadly than LeBron. What about when they put Terry and Barea to D up LeBron in the post and he completely froze?

I disagree on all fronts and I dont see how they could play the same defense unless we're cloning the primary defender AND allowing the same angles from the zone coverage, which is impossible. It's facetious to pretend they faced the same pressure, I side with MNGopher on this one, Wade was more of a beneficiary than Bron was since the zone was entirely designed to shade the defense towards him, to make him pass to his plethora of bum role players. Bron struggled to find a rhythm, not really sure what else needs to be said but the Dallas defense had more to do with his struggles than anything else is what Im saying. Wade's dominance was a factor as well, Bron was clearly deferring and didn't trust his offense. Thats kind of how Bron struggles, players have different ways of struggling IMO.




There's good defense and then there's choking. LeBron suffered from both that series.

Thats fine, I just dont buy the BS about this being the greatest choke ever or anything like that and its precisely because Im crediting the Mavs defense moreso than you guys are. It was a special defensive unit and clutch as hell.



Miami won games 1 and 3, so if they don't collapse in the 4th quarters of games 2 and 4 then they are literally sweeping them. Just hitting 1 of those 4th quarter 3s in game 2 and just scoring 12 points instead of 8 in game 4 was the difference between a sweep and a 2-2 tie. It really was that close. Just 7 points over 2 games for LeBron.

Yeah but that ignores what Dallas was so good at all year, recovering and adjusting. I highly doubt if they go up 2-0 that Carlisle sticks to the same approach or that there isn't additional motivation to go balls out by the Mavericks players, butterfly effect and all.



Saying that Haslem and Chalmers, who were 4th and 5th for them in MPG, were absolute zeroes is beyond try hard.
Haslem recovered from a season long injury in time to give the team a boost vs Chicago but its hardly "try hard" to suggest a player who would go on to never recover his prior form is somehow an asset in those Finals. Chalmers was decent but again, Miami didn't trust him enough to even start over the likes of Bibby. Besides the lineup of Big-3 +Rio/UH wasn't even their most used lineup, it was with Joel Anthony and Bibby despite Bibby not even playing G6. Joel Anthony was the definition of a bum.


Not to mention that the job Miami did defensively on Dirk, led by Bosh and Haslem, goes just as under the radar. They held Dirk to 41% shooting that series with him coming in during a legendary playoff run. He still had huge 4th quarters, but they certainly did their job of slowing him down.

Bosh? LOL, the guy was basically never the primary defender on Dirk, he was covering Tyson and trying to help on Dirk but also getting punked on the glass. Outside of transition, occasional switches and the end of G2 when he let Dirk get to the rim for the easy game winning layup, he wasn't doing anything to Dirk from what I recall. Haslem and Anthony were the primary defenders and they did a good job getting physical, definitely better than Ibaka did thats for sure. Both were zero's on the other end tho. Dirk really only had 1 awful game, luckily his supporting cast came through in the Final game, I remember them having a run with him on the bench that was huge. I also remember the JJ game that really lifted Dallas.



Why was there a lack of an offensive system? They had an offseason together, didn't they? It's not like they got there in a midseason trade. There certainly wasn't any issues with the offensive system when they bulldozed through the east with a 12-3 record, including a 4-1 defeat of the 62-win Bulls and their #1 ranked D in the ECF.

Sixers sucked, Celtics were injured and Chicago was a closer series than the margin dictated IMO. And sometimes you just go through a hot streak, like Chicago was defending them well its just they were making shots they usually dont. From that same Bill Simmons article he notes the following;

Remember, LeBron and Wade were never good long-range shooters, only they cruised to the Finals partly because LeBron was nailing some exceptionally tough 3s. Wade made 29 percent for his career, 28 percent in the first three rounds, and 26 percent in the Finals; he never got going. LeBron made 32.9 percent for his career, but in Miami’s eight Boston/Chicago victories plus Game 1 of the Finals, he made an improbable 20 of 39 3s. It couldn’t last. He missed 18 of his 23 in the last five Finals games.

Chicago was out classed no doubt but the Mavs would have whooped them too. And they didn't have an offensive system because they never had a consistent supporting cast around the Big-3 and lacked the spacing to truly get creative (Bosh was still taking more midrange shots). The System at the time was simply, "get stops - do what you want" as admitted by Spo. They were coasting on talent alone and were not yet the team that knew how to share the ball together. It was a big experiment, they did pretty good even if they let up. Coming 2 wins short of a championship is nothing to scoff at.



How is it taking it too far when LeBron's drop of 8.9 in PPG in the Finals was the worst in NBA history? How is it taking it too far when Mario Chalmers scored more points in the 4th quarter that series than LeBron James? That is pretty safely secured as the biggest Finals choke in NBA history, as far as an individual player is concerned. Curry choked last year too but not to the level of LeBron in 2011.
Because you underrate the influence the defense had on him. I've seen far worse chokes from great players. Not seeing why you're limiting it to the Finals tho, as if its somehow more honorable to "choke" sooner.

Chronz
06-04-2017, 06:54 PM
Give my mavs some damn credit dirk was unbelievable and could not be guarded maybe besides game 6. We were a 12 deep team we even had no caron butler who was vital prior to his injury. We beat the 2x defending lakers had then ubdr4ssing trying to fight us had odom do crack shortly after game 4 and gave bynum nightmares of barea who shoulda got 5 points on the flagrant 2 btw. AND shawn marion and our zone defense dismantled lebron. Just how dirk dismantled ibaka arguably a top 5 defensive player at the time. Dirk torched tbat dude we were so good that year every time we were down 15 or more it felt like 1

I wasn't a fan of Butler anymore (it sucked when he joined the Clips) and actually thought his injury was a blessing in disguise.

Chronz
06-04-2017, 07:05 PM
They easily had the toughest road to a Championship than any team I've seen in a LONG time. First they beat a good Portland team. Then like you said, they SWEPT the 2 time defending Champs during Phil Jackson's swan song in LA. Lakers had every bit of motivation to win that series. Instead they got embarrassed (and embarrassed themselves) in epic fashion.

Then they beat a loaded OKC team with Westbrook, KD, Ibaka, AND Harden. That's 3 MVP caliber players and one of the best young big men in the league (at the time).

After all that they go into Miami and beat the super team with the league's best player and probably second best player (at the time Wade was widely considered by many the 2nd best).

I said it my last post (and say it again here) that the Mavs had 1 All Star player on that team. And Dirk wasn't even a starter in the all star game. I don't care who disagrees or what excuses they come up with, that was a damn impressive Championship run by the Mavs.

If not for that inspirational Brandon Roy game, they enter the Finals with a 12-2 record while blitzing the defending champs and crushing the Big-4 Thunder. Just because it was unforeseen, we shouldn't discredit their teams talent level, they were deep and clutch with the best offensive fulcrum in the league.

valade16
06-04-2017, 08:29 PM
Not really how it works. The series numbers are this drastic because A) game 1 was a blowout and B) 538's numbers are taking the regular season into account. They themselves admitted that it does not entirely properly rate the Cavs current state on account of that. It's not the most lopsided series we have seen. Not by a long shot (this takes nothing away from my view of the Warriors or how dominant they are - which you seem to still not be grasping from my posts). And if Lebron did not turn the ball over like James Harden in a closeout game during G1, we'd likely be having a far different discussion right now. I'm willing to bet he does not repeat that performance. That said, a Warriors sweep still would not shock me, and my prediction remains Warriors in 5. The Cavs are a STACKED team with a top 3 player in history in his prime, but that won't be enough in this one.

Game 1 was a blowout because the Warriors are way better than the Cavs, that only proves my point.

LeBron could play better, it won't matter; GS will win anyway. And that's my point, they're just way better. Period end of story.

Mr.B
06-05-2017, 12:06 AM
If not for that inspirational Brandon Roy game, they enter the Finals with a 12-2 record while blitzing the defending champs and crushing the Big-4 Thunder. Just because it was unforeseen, we shouldn't discredit their teams talent level, they were deep and clutch with the best offensive fulcrum in the league.

They were extremely clutch. Whenever the Mavs absolutely needed a stop or absolutely needed a bucket they got it. Stevenson, Barea, Kidd, Marion, and Jet all hit big shots in that series. Carlisle had that team humming. It was loaded with players that had always came up just a bit short. They were hungry and wouldn't be denied.

JJ_JKidd
06-05-2017, 12:55 AM
that Dallas team composed of washed-up players Peja Marion Kidd etc dismantled the Lakers and humiliated the Heat. extra special team.

Chronz
06-05-2017, 03:12 PM
Peak Chander is an underrated championship piece. If Im a star player, defensive support would be my number one priority. I often wonder what Bron would have looked like if instead of Wade-Bosh, he played with Tyson-Dirk.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2017, 03:14 PM
Cleveland over GS is a much bigger upset.

FOXHOUND
06-05-2017, 04:10 PM
I'm a huge Mavs fan and I can agree that there was a very good chance that Miami could have swept Dallas. Mavs had epic comebacks in games 2 and 4. There are several reasons that happened in my opinion. First, Dallas just seemed more hungry. Dirk basically hit every shot he took down the stretch in both those games. He was mixing it up and attacking the paint as well as hitting some very tough mid range shots. The Heat just couldn't get a stop. Deshawn Stevenson also hit some really huge 3's in both games. Barea seemed to be able to break down the Heat defense at will. I believe it was game 2 the Mavs went on like a 20-2 run within the last few minutes of the game.

Marion spent a good portion of the series covering Labron and did an amazing job getting inside his head. There was a point in both games where you could clearly see Marion almost bullying Labron. At one point he scored on him and you could see Marion calling him a *****. Then when things really started to get chippy Carlisle would switch to a zone and it seemed to throw Labron completely out of rhythm. Whenever Barea and Terry would have to switch off on Labron he wouldn't take advantage of the mismatch. He would pass the ball instead of attacking. The one time I remember he did try to backdown Barea and take advantage of the mismatch Barea drew an offensive foul on him.

Third I think the Heat were just too over confident. They thought there was no way they could lose that series. They severely underestimated Dirk and how bad he wanted to win a title. Labron and Wade (more Wade than Labron) even mocked Dirk when he was sick and played with 103 temp. I guess maybe Wade thought the NBA was going to gift him another title against the Mavs like they did in '06. The Heat failed to realize how much that '06 Finals stuck in the crawl of Dirk and Terry. There was no way Dirk was going to fold and lay down in that 2011 Finals. Luckily for the Mavs Labron did.

On paper Miami was much more talented than the Mavs from top to bottom. They had two MVP candidates in their prime and a 3rd all star. Dallas had 1 second team all star (that's it!) in Dirk. You can't judge heart on paper though and during that series the Mavs had more.

I agree with you 100%, and certainly wasn't trying to discredit the Mavs! They absolutely earned that championship... and maybe the one from 2006. :D

FOXHOUND
06-05-2017, 04:16 PM
Dirk shot 42% from the field in the Finals. So we're giving him TOO much credit. It was Dallas's zoning that ultimately won them the series along with LeBron not adjusting to it/being too passive. Dallas had a top three defense in the playoffs and with Chandler handling the post, it wasn't exactly a terrible defensive team some of you try to make it seem. Dallas could play defense. Dirk wasn't great. He was good enough. LeBron choked. No ifs and buts about it.

I also agree with you 100%. Definitely a combination of it all, and yes while Dirk was godly in those 4th quarters that just further shows how much he was held down in 1-3 when you look at his overall FG%. Dirk was the ultimate closer in that series. Whatever they needed in those 4ths, he gave them that.

FlashBolt
06-05-2017, 04:56 PM
I also agree with you 100%. Definitely a combination of it all, and yes while Dirk was godly in those 4th quarters that just further shows how much he was held down in 1-3 when you look at his overall FG%. Dirk was the ultimate closer in that series. Whatever they needed in those 4ths, he gave them that.

I actually thought JET hit the bigger shots and was the better performing player in terms of raising his level of play.

FOXHOUND
06-05-2017, 05:57 PM
I actually thought JET hit the bigger shots and was the better performing player in terms of raising his level of play.

Him too, he had an incredible series.

Mr.B
06-05-2017, 09:56 PM
I actually thought JET hit the bigger shots and was the better performing player in terms of raising his level of play.

JET was definitely huge in that series too. If we're going to say who stepped their game up the most though I might have to say Deshawn Stevenson. He made some very clutch shots in the 4th quarters of games 2 and 4. Biggest shots he's ever taken in his life. He never hesitated either.

JasonJohnHorn
06-05-2017, 10:15 PM
People keep saying that Dirk's team was one of the weakest supporting casts to win a title. I don't see it.

Dirk was hitting on all cylinders. Chandler was a stud that year. Terry was providing some strong offensive support, Marion some strong defense, and Kidd, though old, was still playing at a high level and providing strong leadership and motivation (Dirk was able to lead, but never able to motivate like Kidd did on the court).

Dirk won because he had a guy like Kidd acting like a real general and pushing people, and strong defenders helping him out in Chandler and Marion. Throw in some spot-up shooters and a strong coach.. that isn't an upset in my mind.


That Heat team didn't have the experience together to come through. They didn't have the depth beyond the big three.



But it was also hard to call the Cavs an 'upset' with Bogut down and Green suspended... that was the Cavs to win. But that said... being down 3-1 against that team...that's impressive. I'd say the Cavs were a bigger upset if pressed.

JJ_JKidd
06-05-2017, 10:18 PM
Peak Chander is an underrated championship piece. If Im a star player, defensive support would be my number one priority. I often wonder what Bron would have looked like if instead of Wade-Bosh, he played with Tyson-Dirk.

True. Chandler was a super upgrade over Diop, Dampier, and all other centers that Dirk had in his life. Brendan Haywood was above average sub as well.

JJ_JKidd
06-05-2017, 10:20 PM
People keep saying that Dirk's team was one of the weakest supporting casts to win a title. I don't see it.

Dirk was hitting on all cylinders. Chandler was a stud that year. Terry was providing some strong offensive support, Marion some strong defense, and Kidd, though old, was still playing at a high level and providing strong leadership and motivation (Dirk was able to lead, but never able to motivate like Kidd did on the court).

Dirk won because he had a guy like Kidd acting like a real general and pushing people, and strong defenders helping him out in Chandler and Marion. Throw in some spot-up shooters and a strong coach.. that isn't an upset in my mind.


That Heat team didn't have the experience together to come through. They didn't have the depth beyond the big three.



But it was also hard to call the Cavs an 'upset' with Bogut down and Green suspended... that was the Cavs to win. But that said... being down 3-1 against that team...that's impressive. I'd say the Cavs were a bigger upset if pressed.

It was an upset if we consider the betting odds during that time.

valade16
06-05-2017, 11:14 PM
I don't think people give credit to how experienced that Mavs team was. In addition Dirk having led the Mavs to the Finals in 06, Peja was one of the leading scorers on the 02 WCF Kings, Marion was a key piece for the 00's Suns, Jason Kidd had led the Nets to the Finals twice and Jason Terry was the leading scorer for Atlanta for several years. They just had a massive amount of experience.

JasonJohnHorn
06-07-2017, 05:52 PM
I don't think people give credit to how experienced that Mavs team was. In addition Dirk having led the Mavs to the Finals in 06, Peja was one of the leading scorers on the 02 WCF Kings, Marion was a key piece for the 00's Suns, Jason Kidd had led the Nets to the Finals twice and Jason Terry was the leading scorer for Atlanta for several years. They just had a massive amount of experience.

This is a great point. Dirk, obviously, but having a guy like Kidd there. Nash was great, but was just coming into his own. Kidd was the long-experience/high-IQ point guard who knew how to win. Chandler and Marion were proven and experienced defenders. Jet had been in the league for a long time and etched out his own role on that team that suited his talents but didn't over exert them (like they were in Utah).

Vegas odds makers may have given the advantage to the Heat, but that roster only had a year together and were only three deep. The Mavs only had some players there for a year as well, but they were deeper and had much better chemistry, and it was only Tyson who was a key piece and was new to the team.

Kyben36
06-07-2017, 05:59 PM
It would (i say would cause we dont know (or do i think) the 2nd is gonna happen) say its the dallas cause they were really lacking on star power, had a ton of aging role players like chandler and kidd, and honestly, they should not have even been there, but dirk put on a hell of a show. Dirk carried that team. And seeing as the heat were the super team, thats a bigger upset than a super team loosing to a super duper team.

FlashBolt
06-07-2017, 08:23 PM
1) Dirk didn't really carry to the extent some of you are portraying.
2) The two teams weren't as far apart as the Cavs vs Warriors. Some of you seemed to forget the Mavericks SWEPT the defending champion in the Lakers and beat the Thunder in five.
3) Dallas had aging players? Not so sure about that. Chandler was at his prime at age 28, Jason Kidd was as skilled as ever. His game never depended on athletic ability and guys like that can have an impact at any age. Look at Duncan. The reason his game was so good for so long was because his game was an "old man" game.
JET was also a sixth man contender for numerous years. But let's not act like this Cavs team isn't old, too. They have the oldest average age in the league. Outside of Kevin and Kyrie, this isn't a young team by any means.
4) This question is simple: You have to look at the relativity of all this. Yes, 2010-11 was an upset. 2016-17 would be one of the bigger upsets in sports history. If last year was an upset, what do you think this year with KD is?