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View Full Version : What IF, Wade had carried Bron to the title in 2011



Chronz
05-31-2017, 12:43 PM
How differently do we view both today?


And yes I know, Wade was well on his way to doing just that before Bron collapsed into nothingness and one timely injury later. But I've seen teams win games without their best players even being there, look at Magic winning without KAJ or Shaq winning with Kobe playing like 9 minutes and being hobbled in other games.

So it is possible and say what you will about Bron's performance, he wasn't a net negative player nor was he not helping the team. He was deferring too much and had no answer for the Dallas D but he was finding teammates, helping on the boards and I recall JET admitting Bron was giving him fits. Basically he was providing a basic Scottie Pippen like game, only Scottie prolly impacts the game more ways playing like this lol. That was a let down, but its still a decent contribution.

So lets say nothing else changes about Bron's level of play for the series, the only difference is that Wade never gets injured during that collision in G5 IIRC and/or Dallas isn't so clutch in G2 or G4. And lets set the facts straight here, Dirk wasn't destroying teams in the sense that he was torching them individually with hot fire, what the guy was, was the clutchest shot maker in playoff history (yes I truly believe that). People neglect to mention that the guy was 9-27 in the clincher and was 1-11 or something at halftime and the Mavs played valiantly while he sat. If not for the W, hes prolly not looking too good that game, luckily for him, Bron stunk worse and Wade was hurt.


That entire Dallas team was greater than the sum its parts partly because it couldn't play the way they did in the 4th ALL game, that + their depth was their distinct advantage. Come 4th quarter, legs are tired and thats when the mind has its greatest advantage. Marion played defense like his younger self, Dirk did Dirk and Jason Kidd's rate of steals spiked up crazily in tight games all playoffs. BTW, quantifying clutchness was a huge reason Rosenbaum and his +/- eggs heads convinced Cubes to buy into Kidd long term.




So to recap, it took elite clutch play and Wade getting injured for Bron to not be carried to a title, those are pretty fickle things and I can imagine universes where Miami happens to win that year at least 25% of the time.





What becomes of the MJ-Bron debate today if this happens?

What becomes of Wade's legacy, does he challenge Kobe Bryant for top SG not named MJ?

Chronz
05-31-2017, 01:14 PM
Could you make the argument that Bron tarnished Wade's legacy more than his own by not winning it all that first year?

Big Zo
05-31-2017, 01:22 PM
What if Mike Bibby didn't have the worst postseason in history that year?

Chronz
05-31-2017, 01:28 PM
What if Mike Bibby didn't have the worst postseason in history that year?

True but its not his fault his coach was too dumb to realize Chalmers was the guy all along. Bibby gave up millions for that chance at a ring, shame he didn't know he had nothing left to offer, I bet he wishes he kept the money and stayed in DC.

FlashBolt
05-31-2017, 01:48 PM
It would have actually HELPED LeBron's career. Losing just magnifies everything but I think we all knew LeBron had a higher ceiling than Wade so it might help Wade a bit but I think Wade carrying 2011 would have helped LeBron much more. Like, Kobe played terrible in the 2000 Finals but rarely anyone mentions it.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 02:15 PM
It would have actually HELPED LeBron's career. Losing just magnifies everything but I think we all knew LeBron had a higher ceiling than Wade so it might help Wade a bit but I think Wade carrying 2011 would have helped LeBron much more. Like, Kobe played terrible in the 2000 Finals but rarely anyone mentions it.

It might have helped WAAAAAAAAAAAAY after the fact, when context gets lost outside the internet nerds like us. But it would not have helped him at that point at all. Seriously, the ONE thing people held onto when excluding him from the all timer list was his 0 ring count. Winning one when he played like crap would have gotten his crushed.

AllBall
05-31-2017, 02:17 PM
What if I told you that Shaq and Lebron were said to have carried Wade but the narrative changes to Wade carried Shaq and Lebron when it suits the hater's arguments?

In an ESPN 30 for 30 Original Special: Haters Gonna Hate

Tonight at 8PM

SteBO
05-31-2017, 03:01 PM
It would have actually HELPED LeBron's career. Losing just magnifies everything but I think we all knew LeBron had a higher ceiling than Wade so it might help Wade a bit but I think Wade carrying 2011 would have helped LeBron much more. Like, Kobe played terrible in the 2000 Finals but rarely anyone mentions it.
To jump off what Hawkeye said, the coverage of LBJ then was so disgustingly vitriolic that there's no way in hell the media would've let him off the hook short term the way he played. I could argue that part of the reason LeBron is who he is today was because that series' end result. It served as his rock bottom.....

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 03:13 PM
To jump off what Hawkeye said, the coverage of LBJ then was so disgustingly vitriolic that there's no way in hell the media would've let him off the hook short term the way he played. I could argue that part of the reason LeBron is who he is today was because that series' end result. It served as his rock bottom.....

I was totally indifferent to LeBron until around 2008-09', when the media was just destroying him, along with any fan on the street I talked to. I didn't get how he could get THAT much hate. It was A-Rod, and Tiger hate, only, what the hell had LeBron ever done that was so wrong?

Needless to say, that is well behind us.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-31-2017, 04:30 PM
I think the Ray Allen 3 has had more of an +/- impact on Lebron's legacy in regards to Ray hitting the 3 vs missing the 3. Easier to pinpoint a single play than assuming an entire series difference.

Teaming up with Wade & Bosh, only to win 1 title down in Miami would've been seen as a failure pretty much, leaving him 1-4 Finals record when he left Miami (assuming 2014 finals then plays out same way). Then being 2-5 at this point as opposed to 3-4.

WaDe03
05-31-2017, 07:28 PM
I think it would've helped both of them tbh. Both would have another ring, Wade would have another Finals MVP and would've definitely closed in on Kobe even more. They lost the series but Wade was still the best player in that series on either team. Their role players destroyed ours.

FOXHOUND
05-31-2017, 07:54 PM
Could you make the argument that Bron tarnished Wade's legacy more than his own by not winning it all that first year?

Oddly enough, I would say yes. I also agree with Hawkeye on the devastation that would have descended upon him if that played out. Look at how people talk about the Durant in that thread, for example. People were saying the same things about LeBron and if they won a title in spite of him then that would have crushed him.

For Wade, sadly, losing that Finals has lead to most people ignoring how great he played in it. Following that up with Miami winning when LeBron found his sack and Wade willingly stepping back for him to be his best was the nail in his coffin for people to not give him his due.

Even if 2012-14 played out exactly the same, the gap in LeBron and Wade in that run wouldn't have been viewed as so one sided as it is. The fall off for Wade in 2013 and 2014 due to injuries would have been highlighted far more, as his importance to their winning would have been much more respected. 2013 going 7 and being one rebound/shot from losing despite Miami opening as a +220 favorite (same as Warriors this year :) ) would have been talked more about in Wade's favor. Especially when you take into account that LeBron played poorly in games 1-3 of that series while Wade played poorly in 1-3 due to an injury. The destruction of 2014 would be viewed more as seeing how lacking Miami was without LeBron and Wade playing at a high level, and maybe some people question how dominant LeBron truly was without Wade at his side at that time.

Of course, one can view it that way regardless, but most people focus purely on championship seasons and who won Finals MVP.

mightybosstone
06-01-2017, 02:35 PM
I think that series would help the legacy of both players, but not substantially. Lebron is still probably No. 2 and Wade is probably still in that top 20 discussion, but ultimately behind Kobe and West in the all-time SG discussion. But I do think that a different outcome in that series at least makes those arguments of Lebron being on MJ's level and Wade being on Kobe's level a little easier to stomach. But one series alone doesn't make or break those cases, because they ultimately have other titles and accomplishments to fall back on.

A better discussion would be what that series meant for Dirk. That title put Dirk in the top 20 conversation. But if he doesn't win that series, is he even spoken in the same breath with Barkley, KG, etc.? Would it have been laughable to suggest today that Dirk is an all-time top 20-25 guy without a ring?

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 09:16 PM
How differently do we view both today?


And yes I know, Wade was well on his way to doing just that before Bron collapsed into nothingness and one timely injury later. But I've seen teams win games without their best players even being there, look at Magic winning without KAJ or Shaq winning with Kobe playing like 9 minutes and being hobbled in other games.

So it is possible and say what you will about Bron's performance, he wasn't a net negative player nor was he not helping the team. He was deferring too much and had no answer for the Dallas D but he was finding teammates, helping on the boards and I recall JET admitting Bron was giving him fits. Basically he was providing a basic Scottie Pippen like game, only Scottie prolly impacts the game more ways playing like this lol. That was a let down, but its still a decent contribution.

So lets say nothing else changes about Bron's level of play for the series, the only difference is that Wade never gets injured during that collision in G5 IIRC and/or Dallas isn't so clutch in G2 or G4. And lets set the facts straight here, Dirk wasn't destroying teams in the sense that he was torching them individually with hot fire, what the guy was, was the clutchest shot maker in playoff history (yes I truly believe that). People neglect to mention that the guy was 9-27 in the clincher and was 1-11 or something at halftime and the Mavs played valiantly while he sat. If not for the W, hes prolly not looking too good that game, luckily for him, Bron stunk worse and Wade was hurt.


That entire Dallas team was greater than the sum its parts partly because it couldn't play the way they did in the 4th ALL game, that + their depth was their distinct advantage. Come 4th quarter, legs are tired and thats when the mind has its greatest advantage. Marion played defense like his younger self, Dirk did Dirk and Jason Kidd's rate of steals spiked up crazily in tight games all playoffs. BTW, quantifying clutchness was a huge reason Rosenbaum and his +/- eggs heads convinced Cubes to buy into Kidd long term.




So to recap, it took elite clutch play and Wade getting injured for Bron to not be carried to a title, those are pretty fickle things and I can imagine universes where Miami happens to win that year at least 25% of the time.





What becomes of the MJ-Bron debate today if this happens?

What becomes of Wade's legacy, does he challenge Kobe Bryant for top SG not named MJ?

They didn't lose cause of anything involving Wade.

They lost cause Lebron was passive and wouldn't take the ball and force it to the rim.

Jeffy25
06-01-2017, 10:20 PM
Bron haters would move him up a notch, but the hate wouldn't really change. They dislike him for other reasons and the titles are just an excuse to hate him.

More than anything, Wade would move ahead of Kobe in the all-time ranking list (or tie him up).

Jeffy25
06-01-2017, 10:22 PM
I think the Ray Allen 3 has had more of an +/- impact on Lebron's legacy in regards to Ray hitting the 3 vs missing the 3. Easier to pinpoint a single play than assuming an entire series difference.

Teaming up with Wade & Bosh, only to win 1 title down in Miami would've been seen as a failure pretty much, leaving him 1-4 Finals record when he left Miami (assuming 2014 finals then plays out same way). Then being 2-5 at this point as opposed to 3-4.

That's like saying Jordan wouldn't be who he is without the clutch 3's by his teammates.

Every single Finals has seen a clutch shot by a team mate who wasn't the star or Finals MVP

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 10:50 PM
Bron haters would move him up a notch, but the hate wouldn't really change. They dislike him for other reasons and the titles are just an excuse to hate him.

More than anything, Wade would move ahead of Kobe in the all-time ranking list (or tie him up).

I don't hate him. But he was passive, did pull a massive Houdini and averaged Scottie Pippen scoring numbers while losing to a team with fewer hall of famers than his team... it's a major indictment

Pierzynski4Prez
06-01-2017, 11:29 PM
That's like saying Jordan wouldn't be who he is without the clutch 3's by his teammates.

Every single Finals has seen a clutch shot by a team mate who wasn't the star or Finals MVP

What clutch shot was made by a Jordan teammate in an elimination game for the Bulls to save their ***** from being sent home for the season?

I get your point, but that Ray Allen 3 was the single thing that prevented them from losing the finals for MIA. He misses it and it has a big impact on how we view Lebrons legacy imo. Paxson or Kerr miss their shots (let me know if I missed others) and the Bulls still have another game they would need to lose.

lol, please
06-02-2017, 01:21 AM
, look at Magic winning without KAJ or Shaq winning with Kobe playing like 9 minutes and being hobbled in other games.

Did you just insinuate that Kobe is / was better than Shaq?














:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Chronz
06-02-2017, 12:00 PM
Did you just insinuate that Kobe is / was better than Shaq?














:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Best playerS.

joedaheights
06-02-2017, 12:11 PM
To the point shared later... the narrative that Jordan didn't beat Detroit cause he was still too selfish... when in reality Pippen just hadn't come close to arriving yet...

One of THE forgotten games of MJs career...

91 finals game 3...

Pippen fouls out as divac hits what looks like it may be the game winner and gets the foul.

Jordan hits a floater to send it to overtime and then it was "here Michael take the ball and take over" and the Lakers practically looked like a college team in overtime ...

Bostonjorge
06-02-2017, 07:00 PM
Wade would of been Jordan. Lebron's choke was greater then the greatest basketball player ever. I'm not sure even Jordan could handle that level of Choke from a teammate and still get the win and championship. Lebrons choke is greater then anything Jordan has ever done. If wade could of won with that James then Wade is the Goat. That would of made Wade the undisputed GOAT of basketball.

WaDe03
06-02-2017, 07:03 PM
Wade would of been Jordan. Lebron's choke was greater then the greatest basketball player ever. I'm not sure even Jordan could handle that level of Choke from a teammate and still get the win and championship. Lebrons choke is greater then anything Jordan has ever done. If wade could of won with that James then Wade is the Goat. That would of made Wade the undisputed GOAT of basketball.

You mean even more of the GOAT than he already is?

Bostonjorge
06-02-2017, 07:15 PM
You mean even more of the GOAT than he already is?

James has had a negative effective on wades legacy. That ring in 2011 would of cemented wade.

WaDe03
06-02-2017, 07:18 PM
James has had a negative effective on wades legacy. That ring in 2011 would of cemented wade.

He would've at worst tied Kobe with that one imo.

SteBO
06-03-2017, 09:15 AM
He would've at worst tied Kobe with that one imo.
Nah, love Wade but longevity matters.

Bostonjorge
06-03-2017, 03:51 PM
Bron haters would move him up a notch, but the hate wouldn't really change. They dislike him for other reasons and the titles are just an excuse to hate him.

More than anything, Wade would move ahead of Kobe in the all-time ranking list (or tie him up).

Everyone knows James suck so bad that Wade winning with that James instantly gives him Goat credit. That James was so terrible that winning with James on your roster gives you a Jordan three peat credit. I know Kobe and Jordan wished they could of took on that wade challenge and try to win with the biggest choke job player in history. They would of instantly became the new NBA logo and the NBA trophy would of been named after them.

Wade still probably kicks himself over how close he was to becoming the Goat for carrying the worst finals player we have ever seen in James. Wade could of dethrone Jordan but instead wade is already being forgotten.