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ODB13
05-29-2017, 04:33 PM
This came up as a hot topic in another thread, and I thought it was worthy of a community discussion.

Who had more competition in their conference? Lebron or Jordan?

Jordan faced Bird's Celtics, Isaiah's Pistons, Ewing's Knicks, Zo's Heat, Reggie's Pacers, Shaq's Magic, etc..

Lebron has faced the Big 3 Celts, Howard's Magic, Rose's Bulls, etc..

Who had a tougher path to the Finals?

archdevil84
05-29-2017, 04:39 PM
ive never seen any NBA season prior to 2011 but judging by the names i'd say MJ had tougher competition

Bostonjorge
05-29-2017, 04:41 PM
Look at the names and teams on Jordan list then look at James list. Why is this a question?

GoferKing_
05-29-2017, 04:44 PM
This is even a question? Howard's Magic, Rose's Bulls. heheh.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 04:45 PM
ive never seen any NBA season prior to 2011 but judging by the names i'd say MJ had tougher competition

Welcome to watching basketball! Lots of new hoops fans have been commenting in here lately.

Bostonjorge
05-29-2017, 04:46 PM
This is even a question? Howard's Magic, Rose's Bulls. heheh.

Lebron even lost to Howard's magic. Jordan lost to Detroit who go on to win back to back titles.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 04:53 PM
Lebron even lost to Howard's magic. Jordan lost to Detroit who go on to win back to back titles.

Should we add Toronto to the list just to even it out?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-29-2017, 05:48 PM
Jordan, but LeBron had tougher competition in the finals

ODB13
05-29-2017, 05:58 PM
Jordan, but LeBron had tougher competition in the finals

I think for seven games a year--when they've gone to seven--LeBron has had tougher competition than Jordan, but marginally.

If you take into consideration the grind of the regular season and the conference playoffs (the Bulls weren't going to be a top seeded team with MJ taking games off), I think it's a pretty open-and-shut case about who had overall more competition.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 05:58 PM
Jordan, but LeBron had tougher competition in the finals

This, which is what was said in the other thread that he is calling a 'hot topic'

Nobody said Bron had a tougher time in the East.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 05:59 PM
I think for seven games a year--when they've gone to seven--LeBron has had tougher competition than Jordan, but marginally.

If you take into consideration the grind of the regular season and the conference playoffs (the Bulls weren't going to be a top seeded team with MJ taking games off), I think it's a pretty open-and-shut case about who had overall more competition.

As said in the other thread, are the WCF winning Jazz any better than the current Clippers?

Wade n Fade
05-29-2017, 06:00 PM
MJ had a tougher route to the NBA Finals, but why does that matter? Why does it matter if MJ could be surpassed at some point? LeBron is one helluva a legend. Gotta appreciate his game, especially when he could have amazing games like Game 6 vs the Celtics in Boston (2012 ECFs) or dropping 41 in Game 5 or Game 6 of the 2016 NBA Finals.

MJ was more of a competitor and the better scorer, but LeBron is still great in his own right.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:04 PM
Went with Lebron because I am not a moron.... You are asking who had the tougher competition so the team around said player matters not just the opposing teams because even the best teams are easy picking if you are loaded with talent like Jordan had around him... But please continue to disregard this and look at 2 big names here and there and yada yada yada to help further the jordan circle jerk.


There isnt a team Jordan faced that is tougher then these past 3 warriors teams or lebrons first stint with the cavs when he had mo ****ing williams... that is what... 8 years right there? BUT YO... Lets just focus in on the other teams and big 3 of the heat and leave out the factual information we have at our finger tips. Jordan couldnt win without pippen.. Lebrons first years kerr/kukuc would have been lebrons best help had they been on those cavs teams... think about that. Not harper/Not Rodman/Not pippen

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:05 PM
Imagine if Jordan could take games off and coast through which is nothing but an audition for a seven game series...

What an awful decline basketball has taken in recent years.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:06 PM
Went with Lebron because I am not a moron.... You are asking who had the tougher competition so the team around said player matters not just the opposing teams because even the best teams are easy picking if you are loaded with talent like Jordan had around him... But please continue to disregard this and look at 2 big names here and there and yada yada yada to help further the jordan circle jerk.

I literally cannot read this.

Can you try that again with some punctuation? I do want to know what you're saying.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:08 PM
I literally cannot read this.

Can you try that again with some punctuation? I do want to know what you're saying.

Simple... Jordans road was easier.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:08 PM
Imagine if Jordan could take games off and coast through which is nothing but an audition for a seven game series...

What an awful decline basketball has taken in recent years.

Imagine if lebron could leave for a season and any team he was on could win damn near 60 games.

Heediot
05-29-2017, 06:09 PM
As said in the other thread, are the WCF winning Jazz any better than the current Clippers?

Slightly better, but it would be a close series. Your short changing those teams in the 90's. Playoff basketball is also about match-ups. Remember when the Spurs won their last title, the next year they got beat in the first round by the Clippers. Outside of the Bulls, there were a bunch of second tier contenders that could give problems to the opposition in accordance to match-ups (Rockets, Jazz, Suns, Sonics, Knicks, Magic --- Spurs and Pacers to a smaller degree).

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 06:10 PM
Imagine if Jordan could take games off and coast through which is nothing but an audition for a seven game series...

What an awful decline basketball has taken in recent years.

He could have. It wasn't something they did in the NBA at that time. It didn't start until Popovich.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:12 PM
As said in the other thread, are the WCF winning Jazz any better than the current Clippers?

I'll engage with this strange, arbitrary diversion from the fact that you don't have a leg to stand on in this argument.

Yes, the Jazz were a great deal better than the Clippers of today. We have to remember that basketball used to be about TEAMS, not collections of stars--I realize you most likely didn't watch basketball in this era from your comments, so I sympathize. The Jazz were a ferociously efficient team on both ends, something the Clippers are not, at all. They were coached by an all-timer, and they were DEEP, very much unlike the Clippers.

And if you are going to compare them by their star players--which is stupid--I'll take Malone, who is probably the second best PF ever, and Stockton over Paul and Griffin in a heartbeat.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 06:13 PM
Slightly better, but it would be a close series. Your short changing those teams in the 90's. Playoff basketball is also about match-ups. Remember when the Spurs won their last title, the next year they got beat in the first round by the Clippers. Outside of the Bulls, there were a bunch of second tier contenders that could give problems to the opposition in accordance to match-ups (Rockets, Jazz, Suns, Sonics, Knicks, Magic --- Spurs and Pacers to a smaller degree).

I absolutely agree with you.

Heediot
05-29-2017, 06:14 PM
There was more parity back in the 90's, due to no max contracts. Building super teams through FA was pretty much non-existent. Jordan had a tougher road to the finals, but his opposition in the finals were weaker overall vs. LeBron's. Nobody is on the level on the current/recent Warriors.

One Nut Kruk
05-29-2017, 06:14 PM
Jordan didn't get a week off between games either. These schedules are a f'n joke nowadays.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:15 PM
But even comparing the two in this way is just brain dead. What made Stockton and Malone so great was how they played TOGETHER, how they made each other better, not how great they were individually in a vacuum. You cannot say Paul and Griffin make each other better in the way Malone and Stockton did.

We have to stop pretending we can isolate the individual in this sport. You can do that in baseball and golf, but not here.

Pretending otherwise is brain dead.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:18 PM
Jordan didn't get a week off between games either. These schedules are a f'n joke nowadays.

.

Bostonjorge
05-29-2017, 06:24 PM
Lebron wasn't good enough to beat Howard's Magic.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:26 PM
Jordan didn't get a week off between games either. These schedules are a f'n joke nowadays.

didnt really have to guard the 3 point line anywhere near as much nor did he have to go through a 7 game first round series as much and so on down the list.


The schedules are the same arent they? outside of the finals that were changed only 2 seasons ago

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+days+of+did+nba+playoffs+get+in+ the+90s&rlz=1C1VFKB_enUS662US662&oq=how+many+days+of+did+nba+playoffs+get+in+the+90 s&aqs=chrome..69i57.9111j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=1994+nba+playoff+schedule

Seems similar to me but this I am not sure about.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:27 PM
Lebron wasn't good enough to beat Howard's Magic.

Jordan wasnt good enough to win in the playoffs without pippen.

Record without pippen

1-10

GREATNESS ONE
05-29-2017, 06:28 PM
As said in the other thread, are the WCF winning Jazz any better than the current Clippers?

Not only is Jerry Sloan a better coach than good ole Doc, but yes the Jazz were much better than this era of Clippers.

I can see the comparison between CP3&Blake w/ Stockton/Malone but overall, the Jazz hs better shooters, better defenders and better bigs, yes giving Greg ostertag some love lol.

Not only that but that pick n roll was just automatic and nasty. Malone' s automatic 15footer was just nasty and Blake could only dream of having that in his arsenal.

Quick question, I'm not too sure but I would guess Stockton to Malone has to be one of the highest pass to points player(s) of all time.

Clippers are like a mini version of the old Jazz teams.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:29 PM
But even comparing the two in this way is just brain dead. What made Stockton and Malone so great was how they played TOGETHER, how they made each other better, not how great they were individually in a vacuum. You cannot say Paul and Griffin make each other better in the way Malone and Stockton did.

We have to stop pretending we can isolate the individual in this sport. You can do that in baseball and golf, but not here.

Pretending otherwise is brain dead.

so we should just ignore the one argument that helps lebron and exposes jordan to a degree in this argument? GOTCHA... Not bias at all.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:29 PM
Lebron wasn't good enough to beat Howard's Magic.

Oof. That was a body blow.

If you want to know the state of decline in the NBA, all you need to know is that Dwight Howard recently led a team to the finals. Yikes.

GREATNESS ONE
05-29-2017, 06:30 PM
Lebron wasn't good enough to beat Howard's Magic.

Well not until he quit on his team not once but twice and surrounded himself with his hand-picked teammates.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:31 PM
so we should just ignore the one argument that helps lebron and exposes jordan to a degree in this argument? GOTCHA... Not bias at all.

What? I'm not ignoring it. I, along with others, nuked that ignorant comparison between the Jazz and the Clips.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:34 PM
Ok riddle me this

Who had the most help around them Jordan or Lebron? Jordan by far

Which teams had the harder road against during the playoffs Lebrons or Jordans? Jordans by a slim margin


So how the **** did a lebron led team have an easier road when he had far less talent until he went to the heat and has come back to the cavs and faced 3 straight years of the GOAT team ever? I will wait.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:39 PM
Its similar to saying the Kobe had a harder road in 01 over iverson because the lakers played out west because the west was stronger... Just because a conference is stronger does not make the road harder... it depends on the help you have... jesus christ people

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:40 PM
Jeffy25 made a Bron fan-boy thread, and all I am attempting to do is debate a particular issue--who had a tougher East. That's competition for an 82 game season and 3 rounds of playoffs, as opposed to the 4-7 games Lebron's team usually doesn't win at the end. I think this should inform the debate of Lebron vs. Jordan a great deal.

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 06:52 PM
Jeffy25 made a Bron fan-boy thread, and all I am attempting to do is debate a particular issue--who had a tougher East. That's competition for an 82 game season and 3 rounds of playoffs, as opposed to the 4-7 games Lebron's team usually doesn't win at the end. I think this should inform the debate of Lebron vs. Jordan a great deal.

so you are basically admitting to making a thread just because of a thread that you deem is a fan boy thread so you can level it out with bias and hate while disregarding all the facts being pointed out... Good ****.

Bostonjorge
05-29-2017, 06:54 PM
Well not until he quit on his team not once but twice and surrounded himself with his hand-picked teammates.

I remember Orlando had Mickael Pietrus on Lebron and didn't double team James. Pietrus got amazing praise for his defense on James. Then game one in the finals Kobe scores 40 points on Pietrus when Orland tried guarding Kobe in his prime with a single defender.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:55 PM
I just want to make clear:

Lebron passed Kobe awhile ago, IMO.

But Jordan is another discussion entirely, and Lebron is not in that convo.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 06:57 PM
so you are basically admitting to making a thread just because of a thread that you deem is a fan boy thread so you can level it out with bias and hate while disregarding all the facts being pointed out... Good ****.

I'm sorry, you seem really hostile and unpleasant to talk to. Please see my other posts to get my arguments and don't bother trying to speak directly to me again.

One Nut Kruk
05-29-2017, 06:59 PM
didnt really have to guard the 3 point line anywhere near as much nor did he have to go through a 7 game first round series as much and so on down the list.


The schedules are the same arent they? outside of the finals that were changed only 2 seasons ago

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+days+of+did+nba+playoffs+get+in+ the+90s&rlz=1C1VFKB_enUS662US662&oq=how+many+days+of+did+nba+playoffs+get+in+the+90 s&aqs=chrome..69i57.9111j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=1994+nba+playoff+schedule

Seems similar to me but this I am not sure about.

Well looking at a Finals in which Jordan actually played, like in 1993 where they played on June 9, 11, 13, 16, 18 and 20, it doesn't seem similiar at all considering Cleveland has had a week off and now play Thursday, Sunday, Wednesday...that is ridiculous.

Not too mention, Lebron barely ever loses a 1st round game in that pathetic conference so stop acting like he's had to go through some grueling 1st rounds lol

Jamiecballer
05-29-2017, 07:09 PM
Even though I got to watch a lot of Jordans playoffs I have a hard time answering this question. A lot of it was marketing back then, and unfortunately I can't go back in time and watch with that in mind, with a grown ups understanding of the game.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
05-29-2017, 07:20 PM
Jeffy25 made a Bron fan-boy thread, and all I am attempting to do is debate a particular issue--who had a tougher East. That's competition for an 82 game season and 3 rounds of playoffs, as opposed to the 4-7 games Lebron's team usually doesn't win at the end. I think this should inform the debate of Lebron vs. Jordan a great deal.
Jeffy is a robot, referring to him as a fan boy just makes you look dumb to anyone who has been here a while

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

DaBear
05-29-2017, 07:30 PM
Jordan easily. The East has been a joke for most of Lebron's career.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 07:30 PM
Jeffy25 made a Bron fan-boy thread, and all I am attempting to do is debate a particular issue--who had a tougher East. That's competition for an 82 game season and 3 rounds of playoffs, as opposed to the 4-7 games Lebron's team usually doesn't win at the end. I think this should inform the debate of Lebron vs. Jordan a great deal.

Yeah, no. I'm not even a Bron fan, but the debate between Jordan and Bron is starting to pick up steam and is getting stronger and stronger for Bron, where it used to not seem possible. He is climbing the all time ranks pretty quickly.


I didn't make a fan boy thread, but it looks like you might have.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 07:36 PM
I remember Orlando had Mickael Pietrus on Lebron and didn't double team James. Pietrus got amazing praise for his defense on James. Then game one in the finals Kobe scores 40 points on Pietrus when Orland tried guarding Kobe in his prime with a single defender.

lol, this is why this needs to be called out.

Your memory is falty and not accurate

LeBron in that series?
38.5/8.3/8.0/1.2/1.2 at the age of 25 with no help

Kobe in that series?
32.4/5.6/7.4/1.4/1.4 at the age of 30 with a prime Pau Gasol

Don't make up false narratives

DaBear
05-29-2017, 07:36 PM
Went with Lebron because I am not a moron.... You are asking who had the tougher competition so the team around said player matters not just the opposing teams because even the best teams are easy picking if you are loaded with talent like Jordan had around him... But please continue to disregard this and look at 2 big names here and there and yada yada yada to help further the jordan circle jerk.


There isnt a team Jordan faced that is tougher then these past 3 warriors teams or lebrons first stint with the cavs when he had mo ****ing williams... that is what... 8 years right there? BUT YO... Lets just focus in on the other teams and big 3 of the heat and leave out the factual information we have at our finger tips. Jordan couldnt win without pippen.. Lebrons first years kerr/kukuc would have been lebrons best help had they been on those cavs teams... think about that. Not harper/Not Rodman/Not pippen

There isn't a team LeBron faced in the East near the caliber of 80's Celtics and Pistons.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 08:08 PM
lol, this is why this needs to be called out.

Your memory is falty and not accurate

LeBron in that series?
38.5/8.3/8.0/1.2/1.2 at the age of 25 with no help

Kobe in that series?
32.4/5.6/7.4/1.4/1.4 at the age of 30 with a prime Pau Gasol

Don't make up false narratives

Just like your total misunderstanding of basketball as a team sport needs to be called out. After your hilarious Jazz/Clippers comparison (which you seem to have dropped, which you are to be applauded for, I suppose), I'm surprised you are even still posting.

nastynice
05-29-2017, 08:11 PM
Haha, obviously Jordan.

Lebron has seen some good squads in the finals tho, so that should be considered when talking about competition level

ODB13
05-29-2017, 08:13 PM
Haha, obviously Jordan.

Lebron has seen some good squads in the finals tho, so that should be considered when talking about competition level

I agree that he has. But he has also cake-walked to them because of the dearth of competition throughout the season and for the first three rounds.

Having difficult competition for 4-7 games per year isn't impressive, especially if you don't even win the majority of those matchups.

sager729
05-29-2017, 08:27 PM
I like how More Than Most keeps saying Jordan had better teams around him, does he not realize that LeBron has hand picked his teams since he went to Miami? And especially since he went back to Cleveland.

This is clearly Jordan had the tougher road to the finals. The Finals for me would slide LeBron's way for be slightly tougher, but LBJ has played only 2 different teams in the finals in the last 6 years. Jordan played 5 different teams in his finals.

The familiarity makes it a little easier to know what the other teams will do.

Bartlee23
05-29-2017, 09:04 PM
This is a subject that has been brought up multiple times and the same tired information has been cycled thought from one thread to another by people who simply never saw Jordan's full career. Obviously LeBron fans and those who simply hate Jordan are going to find every way to try and put LeBron at the top but in reality it's just not happening.

As I have stated in the past before the start of this year over 70% of Jordan’s playoff opponents in his career had 50+ wins, and just above 50% of LeBron’s playoff opponents in his career have had 50+ wins. Both players have won five series without home-court advantage. Jordan NEVER lost a series with home-court advantage, LeBron has lost 3 series with home-court advantage, one was his fault, one was not entirely his fault, and one was entirely on his teammates. The teams LeBron has faced in this years playoffs have been some of the worst teams and this playoffs will go down as one of the worst ever.

Jordan was the best playoff performer ever, and one could argue that either one of his first three Finals Performances were the best ever… People seem to think that Jordan had a “stacked team” and that his winning came handily, but this is far from the truth. The Bulls were a great team when they were winning rings, but they were no super team during the first three-peat, and were not invincible during the second-three peat. The Bulls won two playoff series without home-court advantage during the first three-peat, including the ’93 Finals. The Suns were an extremely deep team, led by MVP Charles Barkley. Despite injuries throughout the season, they won 62 games. Jordan averaged 41/9/6 on 51%, in my opinion the greatest finals performance ever, in order to help his team win in six. The sixth game was won on a game-winner from John Paxson, so a tightly contested six game series despite a heroic effort from Jordan shows how “stacked” the Bulls were in comparison to their competition. Each Finals opponent that the Bulls faced was lead by the MVP or MVP runner-up, and along with the ’93 Finals the Bulls did not have home-court against Utah in ’98 but still won(Scottie Pippen missed 38 games in the ’98 season, 35-year old Michael Jordan led the Bulls to a 26-12-pace for 56 wins-record).

Watching a highlight,googling a stat or " living in the moment " doesn't make you an expert. It's a fun topic though that Jordan wins quite easily in so many things they're hard to number.... plus I don't have the time as I've seen it with my own eyes. Happy Memorial Day to all................

More-Than-Most
05-29-2017, 09:04 PM
I like how More Than Most keeps saying Jordan had better teams around him, does he not realize that LeBron has hand picked his teams since he went to Miami? And especially since he went back to Cleveland.

This is clearly Jordan had the tougher road to the finals. The Finals for me would slide LeBron's way for be slightly tougher, but LBJ has played only 2 different teams in the finals in the last 6 years. Jordan played 5 different teams in his finals.

The familiarity makes it a little easier to know what the other teams will do.

you like my posts but you arent reading or understanding them... i said for those years in the heat he had talent but those years dont make up for the talent jordan has the majority of his career... he went to the cavs and picked his team but since going back has been going against competition jordan never faced.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 09:10 PM
This is a subject that has been brought up multiple times and the same tired information has been cycled thought from one thread to another by people who simply never saw Jordan's full career. Obviously LeBron fans and those who simply hate Jordan are going to find every way to try and put LeBron at the top but in reality it's just not happening.

As I have stated in the past before the start of this year over 70% of Jordan’s playoff opponents in his career had 50+ wins, and just above 50% of LeBron’s playoff opponents in his career have had 50+ wins. Both players have won five series without home-court advantage. Jordan NEVER lost a series with home-court advantage, LeBron has lost 3 series with home-court advantage, one was his fault, one was not entirely his fault, and one was entirely on his teammates. The teams LeBron has faced in this years playoffs have been some of the worst teams and this playoffs will go down as one of the worst ever.

Jordan was the best playoff performer ever, and one could argue that either one of his first three Finals Performances were the best ever… People seem to think that Jordan had a “stacked team” and that his winning came handily, but this is far from the truth. The Bulls were a great team when they were winning rings, but they were no super team during the first three-peat, and were not invincible during the second-three peat. The Bulls won two playoff series without home-court advantage during the first three-peat, including the ’93 Finals. The Suns were an extremely deep team, led by MVP Charles Barkley. Despite injuries throughout the season, they won 62 games. Jordan averaged 41/9/6 on 51%, in my opinion the greatest finals performance ever, in order to help his team win in six. The sixth game was won on a game-winner from John Paxson, so a tightly contested six game series despite a heroic effort from Jordan shows how “stacked” the Bulls were in comparison to their competition. Each Finals opponent that the Bulls faced was lead by the MVP or MVP runner-up, and along with the ’93 Finals the Bulls did not have home-court against Utah in ’98 but still won(Scottie Pippen missed 38 games in the ’98 season, 35-year old Michael Jordan led the Bulls to a 26-12-pace for 56 wins-record).

Watching a highlight,googling a stat or " living in the moment " doesn't make you an expert. It's a fun topic though that Jordan wins quite easily in so many things they're hard to number.... plus I don't have the time as I've seen it with my own eyes. Happy Memorial Day to all................

People who only look at individual stats in basketball clearly don't understand the sport. It's not like baseball where you have isolated, 1-on-1 matchups. You actually have to watch and understand this game to interpret it. I think that's where a lot of the confusion is happening here.

Shlumpledink
05-29-2017, 09:35 PM
There was more parity back in the 90's, due to no max contracts. Building super teams through FA was pretty much non-existent. Jordan had a tougher road to the finals, but his opposition in the finals were weaker overall vs. LeBron's. Nobody is on the level on the current/recent Warriors.

There were no max contracts but there were expansion drafts which took out players from several teams.

There were expansion drafts in 88, 89, and 95. That is 2 teams each time. The last expansion draft was in 2004 and was the bobcats, then nothing since. The new teams were also given lottery picks, which pushed back teams with losing records.

Pfeifer
05-29-2017, 10:28 PM
This is a subject that has been brought up multiple times and the same tired information has been cycled thought from one thread to another by people who simply never saw Jordan's full career. Obviously LeBron fans and those who simply hate Jordan are going to find every way to try and put LeBron at the top but in reality it's just not happening.

As I have stated in the past before the start of this year over 70% of Jordan’s playoff opponents in his career had 50+ wins, and just above 50% of LeBron’s playoff opponents in his career have had 50+ wins. Both players have won five series without home-court advantage. Jordan NEVER lost a series with home-court advantage, LeBron has lost 3 series with home-court advantage, one was his fault, one was not entirely his fault, and one was entirely on his teammates. The teams LeBron has faced in this years playoffs have been some of the worst teams and this playoffs will go down as one of the worst ever.

Jordan was the best playoff performer ever, and one could argue that either one of his first three Finals Performances were the best ever… People seem to think that Jordan had a “stacked team” and that his winning came handily, but this is far from the truth. The Bulls were a great team when they were winning rings, but they were no super team during the first three-peat, and were not invincible during the second-three peat. The Bulls won two playoff series without home-court advantage during the first three-peat, including the ’93 Finals. The Suns were an extremely deep team, led by MVP Charles Barkley. Despite injuries throughout the season, they won 62 games. Jordan averaged 41/9/6 on 51%, in my opinion the greatest finals performance ever, in order to help his team win in six. The sixth game was won on a game-winner from John Paxson, so a tightly contested six game series despite a heroic effort from Jordan shows how “stacked” the Bulls were in comparison to their competition. Each Finals opponent that the Bulls faced was lead by the MVP or MVP runner-up, and along with the ’93 Finals the Bulls did not have home-court against Utah in ’98 but still won(Scottie Pippen missed 38 games in the ’98 season, 35-year old Michael Jordan led the Bulls to a 26-12-pace for 56 wins-record).

Watching a highlight,googling a stat or " living in the moment " doesn't make you an expert. It's a fun topic though that Jordan wins quite easily in so many things they're hard to number.... plus I don't have the time as I've seen it with my own eyes. Happy Memorial Day to all................

Thank you for ending this thread.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 10:39 PM
Thank you for ending this thread.

It should never have been a thread, because it was never stated otherwise.

tredigs
05-29-2017, 10:40 PM
Jordan facing/beating the '93 Suns (a 60+ win team that outlasted the peak Payton/Kemp Supersonics in the WCF's) where Barkley was a top 2 player in the world (he had just come off an MVP and leading the OG Dream Team in scoring... and was prob their MVP) is going overlooked here. He was challenged massively in that series by Barkley as an Alpha - and was being guarded by peak Thunder-Dan Majerlie - who was a top 3 wing defender in the game at the time. The Bulls took a gut punch from Chuck (I don't have the stats in front of me but he put up an efficient series with numbers definitely north of 25/10/5), but MJ rose above and just eviscerated them. I think he averaged an efficient 40/7/7 +. He was a different animal in the playoffs - ALWAYS - that is the major breaking point between the two in any All-Time discussion. It's just not an apples to apples comparison. Michael Jordan at his best had/has no equal thus far.

Mr.B
05-29-2017, 10:45 PM
This came up as a hot topic in another thread, and I thought it was worthy of a community discussion.

Who had more competition in their conference? Lebron or Jordan?

Jordan faced Bird's Celtics, Isaiah's Pistons, Ewing's Knicks, Zo's Heat, Reggie's Pacers, Shaq's Magic, etc..

Lebron has faced the Big 3 Celts, Howard's Magic, Rose's Bulls, etc..

Who had a tougher path to the Finals?

You forgot to add he faced a young Zo teamed up with a young Larry Johnson (Grand mama). That Atlanta team he faced with a prime Dikembe and Mookie and young Steve Smith was tough too.

GREATNESS ONE
05-29-2017, 10:47 PM
You forgot to add he faced a young Zo teamed up with a young Larry Johnson (Grand mama). That Atlanta team he faced with a prime Dikembe and Mookie and young Steve Smith was tough too.
This guy knows his Bball. Love the knowledge being dropped on the youngsters. Good ole stuff.

tredigs
05-29-2017, 10:51 PM
As said in the other thread, are the WCF winning Jazz any better than the current Clippers?

Oh yeah, far better coaching/system and a much more well rounded squad. That team beat guys like Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley en route to the Finals. They were incredible. Beyond that, IMPECCABLY healthy. When can we even point to a post-season where the Clippers stars have been healthy? Maybe once in this entire run?

JordansBulls
05-29-2017, 10:52 PM
Jordan had tougher competition. Lebron played with guys who won league and finals mvp and Lebron has been down every year of his career in a series at least 3-2.

Mr.B
05-29-2017, 10:53 PM
As said in the other thread, are the WCF winning Jazz any better than the current Clippers?

Yes, they are. So we're the Rockets. The Sonics were even better than the current Clippers team.

Mr.B
05-29-2017, 11:05 PM
Imagine if lebron could leave for a season and any team he was on could win damn near 60 games.

Imagine if Labron could 3-peat, then take a 2 year hiatus and then come back and 3-peat AGAIN. How many 3-peats does Labron have again?

Mr.B
05-29-2017, 11:35 PM
This guy knows his Bball. Love the knowledge being dropped on the youngsters. Good ole stuff.

Another thing that some of the guys are not factoring in is the style of play. Defenses were allowed to hammer guards when they attacked the paint or even if they just got hot. Because of his size I think Labron would have still been just as good as he is now however his game would have had to be much different. Guys like LJ, And Zo would have basically mugged Labron if he got close to the paint. Especially once LJ got to the Knicks and was teamed up with Oakley, Mason, Ewing, and Starks. That team was almost as brutal as facing those Pistons teams that Jordan faced early in his career.

ODB13
05-29-2017, 11:43 PM
Another thing that some of the guys are not factoring in is the style of play. Defenses were allowed to hammer guards when they attacked the paint or even if they just got hot. Because of his size I think Labron would have still been just as good as he is now however his game would have had to be much different. Guys like LJ, And Zo would have basically mugged Labron if he got close to the paint. Especially once LJ got to the Knicks and was teamed up with Oakley, Mason, Ewing, and Starks. That team was almost as brutal as facing those Pistons teams that Jordan faced early in his career.

LeBron and his relentless crying would have been dealt with harshly by those 90s teams.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 11:51 PM
Jordan had tougher competition. Lebron played with guys who won league and finals mvp and Lebron has been down every year of his career in a series at least 3-2.

Isn't 37 year old Shaq the only league MVP he's played with?


The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?

ODB13
05-30-2017, 12:03 AM
Isn't 37 year old Shaq the only league MVP he's played with?


The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?

Had LeBron left the Heat a few years earlier, they would have been a 55 win team likely. But Lebron bails when the chips are low, so who knows?

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 12:18 AM
Had LeBron left the Heat a few years earlier, they would have been a 55 win team likely. But Lebron bails when the chips are low, so who knows?

In 12-13, they won 66, and Bron posted 19 win shares.

Mr.B
05-30-2017, 12:21 AM
Isn't 37 year old Shaq the only league MVP he's played with?


The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?

Miami had already won a title and had a top 5 player (and MVP candidate) before Labron convinced his buddy Bosh to team up with Wade.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 12:30 AM
Miami had already won a title and had a top 5 player (and MVP candidate) before Labron convinced his buddy Bosh to team up with Wade.

They won the Finals 5 years earlier (with a different squad), and he had to battle against a big three that had already been assembled.

ODB13
05-30-2017, 12:41 AM
In 12-13, they won 66, and Bron posted 19 win shares.

sigh...

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 02:27 AM
sigh...

Well the math works, look at Bulls with and without Jordan

72 win team with 20 win Jordan, 55 win team without him.

More-Than-Most
05-30-2017, 02:44 AM
Well the math works, look at Bulls with and without Jordan

72 win team with 20 win Jordan, 55 win team without him.

it wont matter... its why i gave up... its a pointless thread because you made a thread... lol it has the poll results hidden because the majority are lakers/bulls fans and bron haters.... most others just stay out of here... If the question was whom had an easier road the cavs or the bulls i would have said the cavs but it says bron and jordan thus the help they have around them should matter in this argument but per usual people lack an understanding of the game...

Iverson or kobe who had the harder road in 2001? That says it all.. Not one person responded... Kobe was in the stacked west but kobe was on a far far better team thus his road just because the west was tougher does not mean his road to the finals was harder... Its the same idiocy that people use when they say WELL IF LEBRON PLAYED OUT WEST HE WOULD NEVER MAKE IT TO THE FINALS... But they then do not realize if lebron played out west during his career in that stacked western conference he would be on a team where a top player isnt mo ****ing williams.

Kevj77
05-30-2017, 02:59 AM
I've been watching the NBA since Magic/Bird. MJ had the tougher competition to get to the finals and it isn't even close. The 90's Jazz are by ar better than the current Clippers. Karl Malone was a monster with a very good mid-range jump shot and a decent FT% for a PF. LeBron has by far had tougher finals match ups. The argument about supporting cast is about equal both have had good teams except for LeBron's early years. There is this myth around Jordan that he carried his team and at times he did, but he had great supporting casts so did LeBron, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Isiah Thomas, Duncan ect...

basch152
05-30-2017, 06:32 AM
This question is a complete ****ing joke. Just proof that fanboys will bemd logic to extremes to argue for their guy

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 08:47 AM
Isn't 37 year old Shaq the only league MVP he's played with?


The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?


This is a common attempt that people who have no clue what they're talking about bring up to " attempt " to sound smart which fails. People love to bring up how the Bulls only fell from 57 wins with Jordan in the 92/93 season to 55 without him in 93/94. But they forget a lot of important details. Such as the huge difference between winning 3 straight championships and losing in the second round. Your regular season record is not a barometer for success if you don't get it done in the playoffs, just ask Golden State.

The other big fact that is left out is the addition of Kukoc and Kerr to the team after Jordan left, in addition to retaining the rest of the 1993 Bulls starting 5 minus Jordan. Jordan NEVER played with the supporting cast that Pippen had in the 1993/94 season. Jordan never played with Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Kukoc, and Kerr all at the same time. And yes, role players such has Kukoc and Kerr that spread the floor make a huge difference on the team's W column. For example, when Ray Allen joined the 2013 Heat, they won the most games in franchise history while LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all averaged career highs in FG% while playing with Allen.

You would think a LeBron fan would know this stuff since he sits out games quite regularly during the regular season and seems to " coast " through quite a few games.

Please stop.

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 11:13 AM
This is a common attempt that people who have no clue what they're talking about bring up to " attempt " to sound smart which fails. People love to bring up how the Bulls only fell from 57 wins with Jordan in the 92/93 season to 55 without him in 93/94. But they forget a lot of important details. Such as the huge difference between winning 3 straight championships and losing in the second round. Your regular season record is not a barometer for success if you don't get it done in the playoffs, just ask Golden State.

The other big fact that is left out is the addition of Kukoc and Kerr to the team after Jordan left, in addition to retaining the rest of the 1993 Bulls starting 5 minus Jordan. Jordan NEVER played with the supporting cast that Pippen had in the 1993/94 season. Jordan never played with Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Kukoc, and Kerr all at the same time. And yes, role players such has Kukoc and Kerr that spread the floor make a huge difference on the team's W column. For example, when Ray Allen joined the 2013 Heat, they won the most games in franchise history while LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all averaged career highs in FG% while playing with Allen.

You would think a LeBron fan would know this stuff since he sits out games quite regularly during the regular season and seems to " coast " through quite a few games.

Please stop.

This is also negated when people argue that the bulls would have won 8 straight if Jordan doesn't go play baseball.... If Jordan doesn't leave, Kukoc might not ever play in a Bulls uniform... who knows what would have happened to the team?

But yes this thread is pure nonsense, MJ obviously faced harder competition in the eastern playoffs.

Who faced tougher finals competition would be a better question to ask and would probably be the opposite answer

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 11:51 AM
This is a common attempt that people who have no clue what they're talking about bring up to " attempt " to sound smart which fails. People love to bring up how the Bulls only fell from 57 wins with Jordan in the 92/93 season to 55 without him in 93/94. But they forget a lot of important details. Such as the huge difference between winning 3 straight championships and losing in the second round. Your regular season record is not a barometer for success if you don't get it done in the playoffs, just ask Golden State.

The other big fact that is left out is the addition of Kukoc and Kerr to the team after Jordan left, in addition to retaining the rest of the 1993 Bulls starting 5 minus Jordan. Jordan NEVER played with the supporting cast that Pippen had in the 1993/94 season. Jordan never played with Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Kukoc, and Kerr all at the same time. And yes, role players such has Kukoc and Kerr that spread the floor make a huge difference on the team's W column. For example, when Ray Allen joined the 2013 Heat, they won the most games in franchise history while LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all averaged career highs in FG% while playing with Allen.

You would think a LeBron fan would know this stuff since he sits out games quite regularly during the regular season and seems to " coast " through quite a few games.

Please stop.

1. Not a LeBron fan, please stop that ;)
2. So then wouldn't Jordan have enjoyed playing with all of those players over parts of those years?

Isn't that the part of this argument as MTM has said? The players team mates have a lot to do with this.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 11:52 AM
This is also negated when people argue that the bulls would have won 8 straight if Jordan doesn't go play baseball.... If Jordan doesn't leave, Kukoc might not ever play in a Bulls uniform... who knows what would have happened to the team?

But yes this thread is pure nonsense, MJ obviously faced harder competition in the eastern playoffs.

Who faced tougher finals competition would be a better question to ask and would probably be the opposite answer

Well it was never asked, ODB misinterpreted a statement, and then made this thread thinking it was an argument.

GREATNESS ONE
05-30-2017, 12:03 PM
Everyone arguing Lebron in this thread got owned.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 12:45 PM
1. Not a LeBron fan, please stop that ;)
2. So then wouldn't Jordan have enjoyed playing with all of those players over parts of those years?

Isn't that the part of this argument as MTM has said? The players team mates have a lot to do with this.

1. Yet you go to such lengths to defend LeBron and fail.... lol.

2. Relevance ????? Where was anything said about " enjoyment " ????? FACT...........

My only " argument " is the point you tried to make and failed doing so.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 12:48 PM
This is also negated when people argue that the bulls would have won 8 straight if Jordan doesn't go play baseball.... If Jordan doesn't leave, Kukoc might not ever play in a Bulls uniform... who knows what would have happened to the team?

But yes this thread is pure nonsense, MJ obviously faced harder competition in the eastern playoffs.

Who faced tougher finals competition would be a better question to ask and would probably be the opposite answer

Never argued this thus not really response worthy. I was just pointing out that the posters information was inaccurate and failed logic.... which it did.

effen5
05-30-2017, 12:55 PM
The #1 seed this year had 53 wins, the #6 seed of the 96/97 playoffs had 54 wins.

Bye.

ManRam
05-30-2017, 12:59 PM
Just jumping in, so pardon any redundancy.

Jordan had tougher EC competition, but it's romanticized a bit too much. There's a reason he faced 6 different teams in the 6 EC wins he had...there wasn't another historically great team with any sort of sustained success to pose as a foil, which is also true today with the Cavs. MJ caught some of those teams at the right time, like him only getting passed the Pistons once they started their fade.

Bron has had tougher Finals competition by just about any way you look at it.

Phantom Dreamer
05-30-2017, 01:19 PM
This is a common attempt that people who have no clue what they're talking about bring up to " attempt " to sound smart which fails. People love to bring up how the Bulls only fell from 57 wins with Jordan in the 92/93 season to 55 without him in 93/94. But they forget a lot of important details. Such as the huge difference between winning 3 straight championships and losing in the second round. Your regular season record is not a barometer for success if you don't get it done in the playoffs, just ask Golden State.

The other big fact that is left out is the addition of Kukoc and Kerr to the team after Jordan left, in addition to retaining the rest of the 1993 Bulls starting 5 minus Jordan. Jordan NEVER played with the supporting cast that Pippen had in the 1993/94 season. Jordan never played with Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Kukoc, and Kerr all at the same time. And yes, role players such has Kukoc and Kerr that spread the floor make a huge difference on the team's W column. For example, when Ray Allen joined the 2013 Heat, they won the most games in franchise history while LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all averaged career highs in FG% while playing with Allen.

You would think a LeBron fan would know this stuff since he sits out games quite regularly during the regular season and seems to " coast " through quite a few games.

Please stop.

This is also negated when people argue that the bulls would have won 8 straight if Jordan doesn't go play baseball.... If Jordan doesn't leave, Kukoc might not ever play in a Bulls uniform... who knows what would have happened to the team?

But yes this thread is pure nonsense, MJ obviously faced harder competition in the eastern playoffs.

Who faced tougher finals competition would be a better question to ask and would probably be the opposite answerKukoc already agreed to play with Bulls prior to Jordan retiring, he was at the Berto Center during the press conference.

ODB13
05-30-2017, 01:30 PM
Well the math works, look at Bulls with and without Jordan

72 win team with 20 win Jordan, 55 win team without him.

It was a different team the next year with different component parts, as a few have already mentioned. And without Jordan, they had to play together differently.

See, this is why no one is agreeing with either of you, because your comments demonstrate a flawed understanding of the sport itself.

If you take a baseball player off a team and fill him in with other parts, WAR can accurately predict how many wins it will cost them.

Basketball does not have players playing in a vacuum, like baseball has hitters hitting alone, being solely responsible for their stats. Talking about different basketball teams in winshares is just so mind-numbingly stupid.

This is why your comments and MTMs are falling so sadly flat.

Try talking about the game. You will do better that way.

ODB13
05-30-2017, 01:32 PM
Just jumping in, so pardon any redundancy.

Jordan had tougher EC competition, but it's romanticized a bit too much. There's a reason he faced 6 different teams in the 6 EC wins he had...there wasn't another historically great team with any sort of sustained success to pose as a foil, which is also true today with the Cavs. MJ caught some of those teams at the right time, like him only getting passed the Pistons once they started their fade.

Bron has had tougher Finals competition by just about any way you look at it.

He had different ECF opponents because there were many great teams he had to play, not because there wasn't one. The East in the 90s was a dog fight every year, from the beginning of the first game of the regular season.

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 01:37 PM
Never argued this thus not really response worthy. I was just pointing out that the posters information was inaccurate and failed logic.... which it did.

I don't think it was inaccurate..... Its a fact that the Bulls went from 57 wins the season before Jordan played baseball to 55 wins the following season. Incomplete? sure. Just like it could be said the Cavs went from a #2 seed in the east to having the #1 pick when LeBron went to Miami, then when Lebron came back to Cleveland, Miami went from appearing in 4 straight finals to missing the playoffs. Those are facts, but dont tell the whole story rosters didn't look the same, injuries ect.

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 01:41 PM
Kukoc already agreed to play with Bulls prior to Jordan retiring, he was at the Berto Center during the press conference.

:cheers:

All im saying is that who knows what would have happened, its all hypothetical... but a different topic for another thread

prodigy
05-30-2017, 02:20 PM
Look at the names and teams on Jordan list then look at James list. Why is this a question?

Because the guys on Jordans List were getting pretty old. Also Lebrons list is incomplete the OP didn't finish it. Left out Spurs and others.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 02:21 PM
I don't think it was inaccurate..... Its a fact that the Bulls went from 57 wins the season before Jordan played baseball to 55 wins the following season. Incomplete? sure. Just like it could be said the Cavs went from a #2 seed in the east to having the #1 pick when LeBron went to Miami, then when Lebron came back to Cleveland, Miami went from appearing in 4 straight finals to missing the playoffs. Those are facts, but dont tell the whole story rosters didn't look the same, injuries ect.

I said " inaccurate and failed logic " which it was....please quote where I said it wasn't a fact on the win totals for the years???? I proved with " factual information " of the reason why this is a failed attempt to somehow to take away from Jordan's relevance. This has been proven to be false with facts.

The roster mattered and they won nothing without Jordan. believe what you wish but i provided nothing but factual information.

ODB13
05-30-2017, 02:24 PM
Because the guys on Jordans List were getting pretty old. Also Lebrons list is incomplete the OP didn't finish it. Left out Spurs and others.

When did the Spurs join the East?

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 02:53 PM
I said " inaccurate and failed logic " which it was....please quote where I said it wasn't a fact on the win totals for the years???? I proved with " factual information " of the reason why this is a failed attempt to somehow to take away from Jordan's relevance. This has been proven to be false with facts.

The roster mattered and they won nothing without Jordan. believe what you wish but i provided nothing but factual information.

he simply asked for your opinion on if you think any team Lebron was on would end a regular season with 2 less wins without him? You avoided answering the question by stating facts about how the Bulls roster changed.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 03:03 PM
he simply asked for your opinion on if you think any team Lebron was on would end a regular season with 2 less wins without him? You avoided answering the question by stating facts about how the Bulls roster changed.

He did ?????


"The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?"

Didn't avoid anything.... I AGAIN stated with logic why the team did so well. In case you didn't understand he was trying to state Jordan leaving wasn't a factor in the team doing great when in fact,they did nothing but an early playoff exit. Again regular season records are NOT the barometer for how good a team is. If LeBron left Wade and Bosh with the other players on their their team or left the Cavs with Love and Irving with the rest of the players plus they added on a player or two it would be basically the same thing.

I guess we just read it different ways but my point is still valid. But I don't want to play into your theories of " what ifs '....lol.

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 03:16 PM
He did ?????


"The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?"

Didn't avoid anything.... I AGAIN stated with logic why the team did so well. In case you didn't understand he was trying to state Jordan leaving wasn't a factor in the team doing great when in fact,they did nothing but an early playoff exit. Again regular season records are NOT the barometer for how good a team is. If LeBron left Wade and Bosh with the other players on their their team or left the Cavs with Love and Irving with the rest of the players plus they added on a player or two it would be basically the same thing.

I guess we just read it different ways but my point is still valid. But I don't want to play into your theories of " what ifs '....lol.

I get what he was saying... not saying I agree with it.

but no matter how you slice it up I would think that if a team loses the greatest player of all time there would be more than just a 2 game differential... the team either has to be extremely talented or extremely well coached, or both.

"The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

This is an accurate statement, is it not? This happened

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?"

This is the question that went unanswered, and due to him leaving two teams and the result of the teams records the following season and his current teams record when he rests, I think its safe to say that none of them would only see a difference or two less losses over a full 82 game season. The Bulls won a playoff series without Jordan.... way more than the Heat or Cavs did after Lebron left.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 03:34 PM
I get what he was saying... not saying I agree with it.

but no matter how you slice it up I would think that if a team loses the greatest player of all time there would be more than just a 2 game differential... the team either has to be extremely talented or extremely well coached, or both.

"The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

This is an accurate statement, is it not? This happened

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?"

This is the question that went unanswered, and due to him leaving two teams and the result of the teams records the following season and his current teams record when he rests, I think its safe to say that none of them would only see a difference or two less losses over a full 82 game season.

Then why go to such great lengths to defend it? Seems kind of weird.

I'll play your game one more time and I'm done with the subject. For the final time, please quote me where I stated anything he said was not an " accurate statement " ???????????? All I simply stated was the " logic " was inaccurate because you have to look at the whole picture.

You can't give anything more than your " opinion " on the rest. You've already brought up " winning 8 in a row " which nobody even mentioned, you were proved wrong about Kukoc coming to play for Chicago by another person and have yet to really prove anything. I stated reasons with factual logic why the team did so well despite Jordan leaving and is quite valid. Looking at the garbage in the playoffs this year it's quite possible if LeBron left the Cavs team fully intact and added a player of Kerr's and Kukoc's talents it's quite possible they would of done as well. The same can be said for the Miami team.

If you disagree.... great. It's not so hard to believe. To each there own.

ManRam
05-30-2017, 03:41 PM
He had different ECF opponents because there were many great teams he had to play, not because there wasn't one. The East in the 90s was a dog fight every year, from the beginning of the first game of the regular season.

I think we're overrating the greatness of those "great" teams. That's all I'm getting at. The Pistons were an all-time great team and did beat Jordan the first 3 times, and then started a rapid decline. The early 90s Knicks probably would be the team that qualifies as a truly "great" team. The late 90s Pacers too. The Cavs couldn't get past the Bulls without MJ.

Were the late 90s Pacers any better than the late 2000s Magic? I don't know.
Were the early 90s Cavs any better than the early-mid 2010 Pacers? I don't know.
Were those "great" Knicks teams better than the KG-era Celtics? I don't know.

His recurring foes just aren't much to write home about.

ECF foes in years in which they made the Finals...

Jordan:

1991: 50 win Pistons
1992: 57 win Cavs
1993: 60 win Knicks
1996: 60 win Magic
1997: 61 win Heat
1998: 58 win Pacers

Average: 57.7 wins

LeBron:

2007: 53 win Pistons

2011: 62 win Bulls -- better record than any MJ foe
2012: 39 win Celtics (shortened season) -- reminds me of 1991, beating a team towards the end of their run
2013: 49 win Pacers -- the worst East Conference LeBron's ever existed in
2014: 56 win Pacers -- again, why not comprable to those early 90s Cavs teams?

2015: 60 win Hawks -- a really good team, maybe if they played in the 90s you'd call them great
2016: 56 win Raptors --
2017: 53 win Celtics

Average: 56 wins (removed 2012).

I doesn't look too dissimilar to me. That's all. MJ faced stiffer competition, but LeBron's championship teams are still getting past any of those teams IMO. MJ wasn't taking done Bird's Celtics, those great Pistons teams, the early 80 Sixers, and so on. Sometimes people speak like he was :shrug:

We get a little too hyperbolic.

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 03:41 PM
Then why go to such great lengths to defend it? Seems kind of weird.I'll play your game one more time and I'm done with the subject. For the final time, please quote me where I stated anything he said was not an " accurate statement " ???????????? All I simply stated was the " logic " was inaccurate because you have to look at the whole picture.

You can't give anything more than your " opinion " on the rest. You've already brought up " winning 8 in a row " which nobody even mentioned, you were proved wrong about Kukoc coming to play for Chicago by another person and have yet to really prove anything. I stated reasons with factual logic why the team did so well despite Jordan leaving and is quite valid. Looking at the garbage in the playoffs this year it's quite possible if LeBron left the Cavs team fully intact and added a player of Kerr's and Kukoc's talents it's quite possible they would of done as well. The same can be said for the Miami team.

If you disagree.... great. It's not so hard to believe. To each there own.

Because all I wanted to do was get your opinion on the question, which you answered in the post I'm replying too.

Even if he did agree to play Bulls could have traded his rights, ect...Maybe they don't bring in Rodman later on if they've won 5 straight....like I said who knows what would have happened, but youre right nobody mentioned it in this thread, however I hear it frequently... for that I apologize

I certainly disagree based on the facts I stated about the teams record sans Lebron :cheers:

Just realized the heat added deng, whiteside and dragic (for 26 games) the following season and finished with 15 less wins after Lebron left

ManRam
05-30-2017, 04:20 PM
Since in all honesty I don't think a team's record in 2017 can be compared flatly with a team's record in 1990, or whatever. Here's a different angle. Elo is a simple way to aggregate this stuff.

Elo ratings (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-teams-of-all-time-according-to-elo/) for ECF opponents.

1991: Pistons - 1598 (337th all time)
1992: Cavs - 1651 (155th)
1993: Knicks - 1680 (88th)
1996: Magic - 1649 (165th)
1997: Heat - 1654 (148th)
1998: Pacers - 1669 (109th)


2007: Pistons - 1649 (161st

(note: 2008 Celtics rank 39th ever, 2009 Magic rank 77th and the 2010 C's rank 135th)

2011: Bulls - 1679 (91st)
2012: Celtics - 1617 (264th)
2013: Pacers - 1616 (267th)
2014: Pacers - 1616 (265th)
2015: Hawks - 1638 (193rd)
2016: Raptors - 1634 (not sure of rank, ~200)
2017: Celtics - 1607 (not sure of rank, ~300)

So yeah, better teams. Pacers = Cavs might have been a poor comparison. But, Jordan wasn't slaying giants in the Eastern Conference.


Compare the Cavs to Jordan's ECF opponents by the Cavs' Elo those Finals years:

2007: 287th, certainly likely lose to any of those 6 opponents. Bizarrely, a tougher East might thus help his legacy since it's one less Finals loss which is worse than an earlier loss (still maintain this was Bron's second greatest achievement)

2011: 52nd
2012: 42nd
2013: 11th
2014: 139th
2015: 112th
2016: One of the 10 highest Elos ever, not sure of exact rank
2017: Sitting at 1691 right now, top ~75th...beating GS would vault them much higher

So yeah, I'll conclude with this:

Maybe the 1993 Knicks could've tripped up one of those 'Bron teams, but I stand by what's really my main point here: the strength of the leagues probably doesn't ultimately make much of a difference in our hypothetical world. The East was tougher then, sure...I just don't think at a margin that changes really anything at all in terms of LeBron's team success.

Great time kill. None of this is science or indisputable and I certainly won't argue that. Especially not team records.

YAALREADYKNO
05-30-2017, 05:56 PM
😂😂😂

JordansBulls
05-30-2017, 06:10 PM
I think we're overrating the greatness of those "great" teams. That's all I'm getting at. The Pistons were an all-time great team and did beat Jordan the first 3 times, and then started a rapid decline. The early 90s Knicks probably would be the team that qualifies as a truly "great" team. The late 90s Pacers too. The Cavs couldn't get past the Bulls without MJ.

Were the late 90s Pacers any better than the late 2000s Magic? I don't know.
Were the early 90s Cavs any better than the early-mid 2010 Pacers? I don't know.
Were those "great" Knicks teams better than the KG-era Celtics? I don't know.

His recurring foes just aren't much to write home about.

ECF foes in years in which they made the Finals...

Jordan:

1991: 50 win Pistons
1992: 57 win Cavs
1993: 60 win Knicks
1996: 60 win Magic
1997: 61 win Heat
1998: 58 win Pacers

Average: 57.7 wins

LeBron:

2007: 53 win Pistons

2011: 62 win Bulls -- better record than any MJ foe
2012: 39 win Celtics (shortened season) -- reminds me of 1991, beating a team towards the end of their run
2013: 49 win Pacers -- the worst East Conference LeBron's ever existed in
2014: 56 win Pacers -- again, why not comprable to those early 90s Cavs teams?

2015: 60 win Hawks -- a really good team, maybe if they played in the 90s you'd call them great
2016: 56 win Raptors --
2017: 53 win Celtics

Average: 56 wins (removed 2012).

I doesn't look too dissimilar to me. That's all. MJ faced stiffer competition, but LeBron's championship teams are still getting past any of those teams IMO. MJ wasn't taking done Bird's Celtics, those great Pistons teams, the early 80 Sixers, and so on. Sometimes people speak like he was :shrug:

We get a little too hyperbolic.

Lebron has lost to a dominant big man in there primes each time he has faced them in the playoffs. He won against a 37 year old Duncan led team was even down 3-2 in that series. He lost to Dirk, KG, Dwight and Duncan in there primes or were close to MVP level. MJ beat dominant bigs in Ewing, Shaq, Zo, Mutombo, Malone, Barkley to name a few.

Lebron hasn't really beaten any dominant bigs that could score at PF nor C or were known for that.

GREATNESS ONE
05-30-2017, 06:47 PM
When did the Spurs join the East?

Leave my special little friend alone! Grrrrr that's my lil P.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 07:52 PM
1. Yet you go to such lengths to defend LeBron and fail.... lol.

2. Relevance ????? Where was anything said about " enjoyment " ????? FACT...........

My only " argument " is the point you tried to make and failed doing so.

Do you even know what points were made? Every thing in this thread was based on a misinterpretation.

Pfeifer
05-30-2017, 10:32 PM
Lebron has lost to a dominant big man in there primes each time he has faced them in the playoffs. He won against a 37 year old Duncan led team was even down 3-2 in that series. He lost to Dirk, KG, Dwight and Duncan in there primes or were close to MVP level. MJ beat dominant bigs in Ewing, Shaq, Zo, Mutombo, Malone, Barkley to name a few.

Lebron hasn't really beaten any dominant bigs that could score at PF nor C or were known for that.

This is my issue too. Lebron just goes to the rim at will and your not allowed to touch him. It was way harder in the paint back then. Put Jordans brain in Lebrons body and he would avg 50 a game.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 11:09 PM
Do you even know what points were made? Every thing in this thread was based on a misinterpretation.

Oh..... I see. You're comment about the difference between wins when Jordan left Chicago and there was little difference in wins you were "defending Jordan" how silly of me to not understand and bring facts. Please accept my apology.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 11:45 PM
Oh..... I see. You're comment about the difference between wins when Jordan left Chicago and there was little difference in wins you were "defending Jordan" how silly of me to not understand and bring facts. Please accept my apology.

smh, dude, read the other thread

nastynice
05-30-2017, 11:52 PM
This is my issue too. Lebron just goes to the rim at will and your not allowed to touch him. It was way harder in the paint back then. Put Jordans brain in Lebrons body and he would avg 50 a game.

I don't know how many ppg Jordan's mind in Lebron's body would get, but I know it would be lower than Jordan's mind in Jordan's body.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2017, 12:29 AM
This is my issue too. Lebron just goes to the rim at will and your not allowed to touch him. It was way harder in the paint back then. Put Jordans brain in Lebrons body and he would avg 50 a game.

the **** is this? not allowed to touch him? you do realize for lebrons size he gets ****ing hammered and they let it go because of his size right? Lebron could go to the line 90 percent of the time he drives if they actually judged him and negated how big he is.

LA_Raiders
05-31-2017, 12:49 AM
This MJ vs LeFlop non sense is getting old already. Back when MJ played, they played a very physical defense, not like now that players can't be touch or they go to the line. MJ faced a tougher competition, The Easy has been easy for a while now.; and don't forget that LeBron needed 2 super stars next to him to win.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2017, 01:24 AM
This MJ vs LeFlop non sense is getting old already. Back when MJ played, they played a very physical defense, not like now that players can't be touch or they go to the line. MJ faced a tougher competition, The Easy has been easy for a while now.; and don't forget that LeBron needed 2 super stars next to him to win.

dont forget jordan had a top 3 team ever for every one of his championships... and if its easier now on offense then lebrons defense over his career is godly compared to jordans Id assume right? considering the 3 point shooting now and how the offense gets away with everything now and the hand checking etc... see how those 2 way streets work? Lebron is also playing against athletes across the league whom are machines because of how athletes for the most part take care of their bodies from top to bottom where as in the 90s you had stars and then a major drop off in athletic freaks.

Jeffy25
05-31-2017, 01:26 AM
This MJ vs LeFlop non sense is getting old already. Back when MJ played, they played a very physical defense, not like now that players can't be touch or they go to the line. MJ faced a tougher competition, The Easy has been easy for a while now.; and don't forget that LeBron needed 2 super stars next to him to win.

The moment you realize that Jordan and LeBron have the exact same FTA per game average for their careers....lol

Don't make up false narratives.

LeBron isn't Harden.

ODB13
05-31-2017, 01:37 AM
The moment you realize that Jordan and LeBron have the exact same FTA per game average for their careers....lol

Don't make up false narratives.

LeBron isn't Harden.

Jordan drove less because he could shoot.

Don't pretend like you watch this sport and understand it.

More-Than-Most
05-31-2017, 02:31 AM
Jordan drove less because he could shoot.

Don't pretend like you watch this sport and understand it.

lmfao what the hell is the point here exactly?


I love this thread... I have asked 2 questions to the jordan lovers and got no answer at all

basch152
05-31-2017, 02:32 AM
the **** is this? not allowed to touch him? you do realize for lebrons size he gets ****ing hammered and they let it go because of his size right? Lebron could go to the line 90 percent of the time he drives if they actually judged him and negated how big he is.

This is such blatant ********.

I cannot even count the number of times i see lebron bull through people initiating thr contact and...defensive foul.

You see what you want, but it isnt reality.

basch152
05-31-2017, 02:34 AM
Also, i ****ing love the whole "they only won two less games without MJ" nonsense.

Yeah, and got eliminated in the second round. Then when MJ came back they won 72 games and had a 3 peat.

Quite a huge goddamn difference.

Jeffy25
05-31-2017, 02:36 AM
Jordan drove less because he could shoot.

Don't pretend like you watch this sport and understand it.

You are right, that's why Bron has better career field goal and 3 point shooting percentages, right?


Don't pretend like you can't make statements as though they are facts, without bothering to simply google to see if any data supports your false memories?


Jordan drove a **** ton in his career, he was lightning quick and exploded at the basket.


But if you went through the volley of this conversation, we were told LeBron just flops and goes to the free throw line, but then when told that they take the same number of free throws per game, then we are told Jordan didn't have to bother to drive (or get to the line) because he could just simply shoot better.....even though the data says otherwise.

nastynice
05-31-2017, 03:09 AM
This is such blatant ********.

I cannot even count the number of times i see lebron bull through people initiating thr contact and...defensive foul.

You see what you want, but it isnt reality.

I think it works both ways. Kinda cancels each other out I guess, **** if I know

GoferKing_
05-31-2017, 03:27 AM
Isn't 37 year old Shaq the only league MVP he's played with?


The first year Jordan left, the Bulls went and won 55 games and Scottie was third in MVP.

Has Bron ever been on a team that if he left, they would do that well?

Miami with Wade and Bosh?

More-Than-Most
05-31-2017, 03:38 AM
Also, i ****ing love the whole "they only won two less games without MJ" nonsense.

Yeah, and got eliminated in the second round. Then when MJ came back they won 72 games and had a 3 peat.

Quite a huge goddamn difference.

Yea they did but again them winning that many games show how talented the team around Jordan was... There will never be a season where any team that loses lebron will win 50 games... I said it before... Lebron does more with less while MJ does the most with More.

nastynice
05-31-2017, 06:02 AM
Yea they did but again them winning that many games show how talented the team around Jordan was... There will never be a season where any team that loses lebron will win 50 games... I said it before... Lebron does more with less while MJ does the most with More.

You really think those first 2-3 yrs in Miami Wade and bosh wouldn't lead that squad to 50 wins? That's a bet I'd take in a heartbeat

I'm pretty confident love and Kyrie would too. Obviously love would get the ball a lot more, with his back to the basket too, instead a parked at 3.

Jamiecballer
05-31-2017, 07:32 AM
Jordan drove less because he could shoot.

Don't pretend like you watch this sport and understand it.
Where have the mods gone? This kind of garbage should not be tolerated

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

nastynice
05-31-2017, 07:44 AM
lmfao what the hell is the point here exactly?


I love this thread... I have asked 2 questions to the jordan lovers and got no answer at all

what 2 questions?

MarkieMark48
05-31-2017, 08:02 AM
Miami with Wade and Bosh?

Miami won 37 games the season after Lebron left

More-Than-Most
05-31-2017, 08:45 AM
what 2 questions?

who had a harder road to the finals in 2001 iverson or Kobe?

West was stronger... But Kobe had a far far better team.... People seem to just ignore the team around Jordan... Both lebron and Jordan had a weak east during their tenure but jordan had a far far better team for the majority of his career... If the thread said who had an easier road the cavs or bulls then the help on said team would be irrelevent but the question is asked for the individual... and because of this it isnt close... it would be like saying kobe had a tougher road over iverson in 01 which is ludicrous considering how many stars were on that lakers team.

Jeffy25
05-31-2017, 09:04 AM
Miami with Wade and Bosh?

Neither of them won a league MVP, which is what I was responding to.

As for the rest of the post, I don't know how well Wade and Bosh led Heat would have honestly done. Where one is top 3 in MVP, and the team wins 55+ games.

I see them more as a 45ish win team in the 3-5 seed range.

FOXHOUND
05-31-2017, 09:09 AM
Miami won 37 games the season after Lebron left

This false equivalency is always annoying. In 1993-94, Pippen and Grant were 28. In 2014-15, Wade and Bosh were 33 and 30. Not only that but Wade missed 20 games and Bosh 38. How come nobody talks about 2015-16, when Miami won 48-games and were 1 game from the ECF with no Bosh in the playoffs?

Or how about the opposite? In 2009-10, Miami won 47-games on the strength of a 28-year old Wade. Despite getting LeBron, Bosh and Miller in place of Beasley, Jermaine O'Neal and Dorell Wright, they only won 11 more games in 2010-11. What does that mean?

FOXHOUND
05-31-2017, 09:19 AM
who had a harder road to the finals in 2001 iverson or Kobe?

West was stronger... But Kobe had a far far better team.... People seem to just ignore the team around Jordan... Both lebron and Jordan had a weak east during their tenure but jordan had a far far better team for the majority of his career... If the thread said who had an easier road the cavs or bulls then the help on said team would be irrelevent but the question is asked for the individual... and because of this it isnt close... it would be like saying kobe had a tougher road over iverson in 01 which is ludicrous considering how many stars were on that lakers team.

Iverson shot 34% in the ECF that year... He also shot 41% and 40% in the first two rounds...

Despite having the MVP, DPOY, 6MotY and CotY on one team, that 76ers team will always be underrated because defense isn't sexy and they happened to play the most dominant playoff team of all time. That Lakers team turned the Spurs and Kings into minced meat just the same.

GoferKing_
05-31-2017, 10:22 AM
Miami won 37 games the season after Lebron left

Have you seen that season and how healthy they were?

Chronz
05-31-2017, 10:37 AM
Lebron has lost to a dominant big man in there primes each time he has faced them in the playoffs. He won against a 37 year old Duncan led team was even down 3-2 in that series. He lost to Dirk, KG, Dwight and Duncan in there primes or were close to MVP level. MJ beat dominant bigs in Ewing, Shaq, Zo, Mutombo, Malone, Barkley to name a few.

Lebron hasn't really beaten any dominant bigs that could score at PF nor C or were known for that.

So when your gambit on a team level fails you, your argument devolves into isolating a single player? LOL what happened to you man, its like you sold your soul to the devil but forgot to get the wish in writing.

Chronz
05-31-2017, 11:01 AM
You really think those first 2-3 yrs in Miami Wade and bosh wouldn't lead that squad to 50 wins? That's a bet I'd take in a heartbeat

I'm pretty confident love and Kyrie would too. Obviously love would get the ball a lot more, with his back to the basket too, instead a parked at 3.

Prolly that first year but that team was a mess and lacks size already. They didn't even know Chalmers was their best PG and had no offensive system, it was literally built from scratch as they jettisoned all ties to their prior team.

So its abit unfair to just deprive them of Brons cap space like that. Maybe they get some stopgap to fill the void there and they retain the likes of Beasley (not sure if thats a good thing tho) instead of just giving players away. The entire purpose of those moves were to add Bron, but if we're outright just taking him off the team then it would take another peak year from Wade, which I think hes capable of. But Bosh wasn't going to replicate his career year no matter what, he had made the conscious decision to shed the weight and didn't envision him playing in the post as much ever again, hes also going to be asked to play defense so his fluffy rebounds from playing with Bargnani aren't there. Overall I see could see a 52 win team without Bron if they discover an identity pretty quickly, they would have to add guys who they only landed cuz of Bron, like Big Z and I think Miller, who rarely played and would never be the same. Udonis Haslem was a vital cog in the machine and he had a career changing injury that year.

By year 2 the Wade that was spoken of, no longer existed. Dude was down to 3rd in MPG on his own team and I highly doubt he would have had an easier time staying healthy without Bron to carry the RS and it goes downhill from there. Meanwhile if Bron is on literally any other team that had a chance to sign him, hes prolly winning titles.

Chronz
05-31-2017, 11:05 AM
This false equivalency is always annoying. In 1993-94, Pippen and Grant were 28. In 2014-15, Wade and Bosh were 33 and 30. Not only that but Wade missed 20 games and Bosh 38. How come nobody talks about 2015-16, when Miami won 48-games and were 1 game from the ECF with no Bosh in the playoffs?

Or how about the opposite? In 2009-10, Miami won 47-games on the strength of a 28-year old Wade. Despite getting LeBron, Bosh and Miller in place of Beasley, Jermaine O'Neal and Dorell Wright, they only won 11 more games in 2010-11. What does that mean?

They did add Deng, Dragic, Whiteside etc...

And Miller? Dude broke down upon signing that contract, and they also lost Udonis for a chunk of the year. Guys like Dampier, Big Z and the corpse of Mike Bibby were playing for them. There were many games where it seemed like they were playing 3 on 5.

Though Wade was still something special so Im sure he wills his team to HCA and 52 wins ish. They lose to Chicago, Boston and/or whatever team Bron is on.

Chronz
05-31-2017, 11:20 AM
Have you seen that season and how healthy they were?

They were at no point looking like a team of that quality and thats with them adding Deng/Whiteside and eventually Dragic to the mix.

Like you can point to injuries but that doesn't exonerate their level of play when healthy nor are we suppose ignore their level of play when going through it. Unless your expecting perfect health, I dont see anything close to a 50 win team, much less 55. Wade and Bosh were missing games when Bron was around, they didn't play this badly and that should be expected(Even without the added depth). I mean Wade/Bosh struggled to play at a .500 level when Bron was on the bench throughout their tenure together and they weren't getting any younger.

effen5
05-31-2017, 11:39 AM
Yea they did but again them winning that many games show how talented the team around Jordan was... There will never be a season where any team that loses lebron will win 50 games... I said it before... Lebron does more with less while MJ does the most with More.

I disagree with you 100% on this.

The reason why that Bulls team still won 50 games was actually Jordan. If you read how Jordan practiced before his first retirement and after he came back, he treated each practice like a game and in essence got his team over prepared for any game. That's why that team was a well oiled machine....

I'll give you guys another example where this comes into play. The 2011 Chicago Bulls - First year under Thibs, Thibs had his team practice harder than any team in the league. That 2011 team was so fun for me to watch because they played hard and it also was a well oiled machine.

So what happened after Derrick Rose tore his ACL and sat out that entire following season? They still won 45 games that year after losing the teams heart and soul.

What happened the following year when Derrick Rose tore his MCL 10 games in? The team won 48 games.

Jordan brought that culture to the Bulls in the 90s and Pip took over for a year the same way Thibs brought the exact same culture earlier this decade. The only difference was that nobody from this Bulls team except for Jimmy Butler wanted that same culture which is why this Bulls teams struggles to play hard every game.

While Bron might makes his team better, he's never made one single player better after he left.

You look at the way Bron practiced and joking around and all that garbage the last few years compared to Jordan and you really can see why none of the players on his team has actually improved without him. I mean there were fights ffs to show how hard they wanted to win in practice.

Look at all the clutch shots Kerr has made post Jordan era with the Spurs? (2003 vs Mavs specifically) You think he would have that same confidence if he never played with Jordan?

MarkieMark48
05-31-2017, 12:58 PM
This false equivalency is always annoying. In 1993-94, Pippen and Grant were 28. In 2014-15, Wade and Bosh were 33 and 30. Not only that but Wade missed 20 games and Bosh 38. How come nobody talks about 2015-16, when Miami won 48-games and were 1 game from the ECF with no Bosh in the playoffs?

Or how about the opposite? In 2009-10, Miami won 47-games on the strength of a 28-year old Wade. Despite getting LeBron, Bosh and Miller in place of Beasley, Jermaine O'Neal and Dorell Wright, they only won 11 more games in 2010-11. What does that mean?

Imagine how many they would have lost if they hadn't added Whiteside, Deng and Dragic for part of the season.

he missed 29 in 13-14

Those 93-94 Bulls were also 1 game away from the ECF, and might have made it if Pippen doesn't throw a tissy about not taking a GW shot that went to Kukoc and caused who knows what kind of dysfunction between the team:cheers:

ODB13
05-31-2017, 01:09 PM
You are right, that's why Bron has better career field goal and 3 point shooting percentages, right?


Don't pretend like you can't make statements as though they are facts, without bothering to simply google to see if any data supports your false memories?


Jordan drove a **** ton in his career, he was lightning quick and exploded at the basket.


But if you went through the volley of this conversation, we were told LeBron just flops and goes to the free throw line, but then when told that they take the same number of free throws per game, then we are told Jordan didn't have to bother to drive (or get to the line) because he could just simply shoot better.....even though the data says otherwise.

Again, numbers OUT OF CONTEXT.

Of course they have similar fg% numbers. Jordan, especially in the last half of his career relied far more on his legendary mid range game, while LeBron takes more shots around the basket (usually without being touched, because if you breathe on him he will wail and cry and end up at the line--how I wish he had an Anthony Mason to deal with and rules that would allow it).

Jordan's flawless career is due in large part to his adaptations as he got older and couldn't explode anymore.

Did you watch any of it?

Googling "data" works in baseball. Not here, buddy. Wrong sport.

Chronz
05-31-2017, 01:23 PM
LOL Anthony Mason. Back in those days you actually had to respect him off the ball cuz the rules were for pansies. Bron wishes there were more bums like Mason today.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 01:48 PM
Again, numbers OUT OF CONTEXT.

Of course they have similar fg% numbers. Jordan, especially in the last half of his career relied far more on his legendary mid range game, while LeBron takes more shots around the basket (usually without being touched, because if you breathe on him he will wail and cry and end up at the line--how I wish he had an Anthony Mason to deal with and rules that would allow it).


do you really think a 6'8", 270 lbs of muscle, freight train, would have not been just fine in the physical era? Please. LeBron would kill for the hand check/no zone era, he would live at the rim and dominate even more.

As for Jordan, he, like any perimeter bad ***, would like this era much less than his. It's not your guy you care about, someone like Jordan can't be contained by 1 player, it's what is behind them, and in the era of zone, you can wall up the paint. Hence why we have so many guys who can shoot from 25 feet now.

ODB13
05-31-2017, 01:55 PM
do you really think a 6'8", 270 lbs of muscle, freight train, would have not been just fine in the physical era? Please. LeBron would kill for the hand check/no zone era, he would live at the rim and dominate even more.

As for Jordan, he, like any perimeter bad ***, would like this era much less than his. It's not your guy you care about, someone like Jordan can't be contained by 1 player, it's what is behind them, and in the era of zone, you can wall up the paint. Hence why we have so many guys who can shoot from 25 feet now.

This insightful basketball post highlights even more why comparing stats--as your only argument--is brain dead between the eras.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 02:01 PM
This insightful basketball post highlights even more why comparing stats--as your only argument--is brain dead between the eras.

well, I didn't use a single stat, but ok dude.

Anything between era's is speculation. However, it's not post doctorate thesis work to determine a huge, strong man who is faster than everyone and finishes after contact would do well in the no zone era, and not be bothered by someone slapping at their arm...

TheIlladelph16
05-31-2017, 02:34 PM
Where have the mods gone? This kind of garbage should not be tolerated

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Go over to the MLB forum and read this guys thread and responses on Derek Jeter. ODB is a troll through and through. This topic should be locked.

ODB13
05-31-2017, 02:39 PM
well, I didn't use a single stat, but ok dude.

Anything between era's is speculation. However, it's not post doctorate thesis work to determine a huge, strong man who is faster than everyone and finishes after contact would do well in the no zone era, and not be bothered by someone slapping at their arm...

I was complementing you, sincerely.

ODB13
05-31-2017, 02:42 PM
Go over to the MLB forum and read this guys thread and responses on Derek Jeter. ODB is a troll through and through. This topic should be locked.

Where have I trolled here?

I think I've argued the point well, as many have pointed out, and those of you on the opposite side simply don't like it.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 03:04 PM
I was complementing you, sincerely.

yeah I read that wrong

My whole deal is, the greatest would be great at any time. Some maybe a little more, some maybe a little less. With this whole subject, remember when Jordan gained a bunch of muscle to combat the Bad Boys, with Tim Grover? LeBron already has that muscle, and then some. I just don't see why he wouldn't be even better in an era where you get to use that size/strength/speed advantage even more.

SteBO
05-31-2017, 03:35 PM
yeah I read that wrong

My whole deal is, the greatest would be great at any time. Some maybe a little more, some maybe a little less. With this whole subject, remember when Jordan gained a bunch of muscle to combat the Bad Boys, with Tim Grover? LeBron already has that muscle, and then some. I just don't see why he wouldn't be even better in an era where you get to use that size/strength/speed advantage even more.
The one factor I've heard from LBJ's detractors is the mental one. There are those who think that the Bad Boy Pistons for example would've gotten in his head in a series' via dirty and thuggish means.....and it's true that the league nowadays is way too finesse.

It's a notion I've rejected given who we're talking about though. LeBron's a truck, and has way more muscle than anybody on that DET team did. He'd run them over.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 03:52 PM
The one factor I've heard from LBJ's detractors is the mental one. There are those who think that the Bad Boy Pistons for example would've gotten in his head in a series' via dirty and thuggish means.....and it's true that the league nowadays is way too finesse.

It's a notion I've rejected given who we're talking about though. LeBron's a truck, and has way more muscle than anybody on that DET team did. He'd run them over.

that is such a speculator theory though. Contact has never bothered LeBron. He may overact at times, that is just what this era does. But I don't buy that the Pistons would have gotten into his head anymore than they tried to MJ's.

Kyben36
05-31-2017, 04:10 PM
also consider lebron had teamed up with 3 allstars twice to do so. against lesser comp. sad.

only real comp was the celtics in miami. and they were getting old then too.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 04:12 PM
also consider lebron had teamed up with 3 allstars twice to do so. against lesser comp. sad.

only real comp was the celtics in miami. and they were getting old then too.

he teamed up with 3 all stars? Huh

Pierzynski4Prez
05-31-2017, 04:35 PM
he teamed up with 3 all stars? Huh

To be fair, technically he is right.

Cleaveland in 2014: Love, Irving, and........wait for it....Shawn Marion.

And down in Miami in 2011, Wade, Bosh, and......wait for it.... Zydrunas Ilgauskas (the 2x All-Star)

I know it's a JordansBulls type argument, but technically he is right.

Kyben36
05-31-2017, 04:37 PM
he teamed up with 3 all stars? Huh

appologies, 2 allstars,

imagine if jordan had left the bulls after the dificult years to team up with Patrick Ewing and Reggie Miller, instead of you know, competing against them. LOL.

not only did lebron leave teams to create a super team, he destroyed 2 other good teams in the process of doing it. (toronto and Cleveland

jordan beating the east against the best is alot more impressive than Lebron beating the east with the best.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 05:03 PM
appologies, 2 allstars,

imagine if jordan had left the bulls after the dificult years to team up with Patrick Ewing and Reggie Miller, instead of you know, competing against them. LOL.

not only did lebron leave teams to create a super team, he destroyed 2 other good teams in the process of doing it. (toronto and Cleveland

jordan beating the east against the best is alot more impressive than Lebron beating the east with the best.

imagine if Cleveland actually didn't turn down trades like JJ Hickson for Amare Stoudemire. Or maybe gave him something better than Mo Williams....

or do we want LeBron to win with D League players, something Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, or anyone else ever did?

Jordan's era is somehow becoming overrated badly around here. I guess it should come as no surprise, most adults were kids in that era, and everyone is guilty of getting caught up in nostalgia.

btw, did LeBron really destroy Cleveland? He left, they sucked, landed like 34 number 1 picks, and he came back, they won a chip. Doesn't sound like destroyed to me

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 05:04 PM
To be fair, technically he is right.

Cleaveland in 2014: Love, Irving, and........wait for it....Shawn Marion.

And down in Miami in 2011, Wade, Bosh, and......wait for it.... Zydrunas Ilgauskas (the 2x All-Star)

I know it's a JordansBulls type argument, but technically he is right.

damnit

JordansBulls
05-31-2017, 07:09 PM
To be fair, technically he is right.

Cleaveland in 2014: Love, Irving, and........wait for it....Shawn Marion.

And down in Miami in 2011, Wade, Bosh, and......wait for it.... Zydrunas Ilgauskas (the 2x All-Star)

I know it's a JordansBulls type argument, but technically he is right.

Ray Allen who saved the day when down 3-2 and down in game 6.

Heediot
05-31-2017, 07:15 PM
The one factor I've heard from LBJ's detractors is the mental one. There are those who think that the Bad Boy Pistons for example would've gotten in his head in a series' via dirty and thuggish means.....and it's true that the league nowadays is way too finesse.

It's a notion I've rejected given who we're talking about though. LeBron's a truck, and has way more muscle than anybody on that DET team did. He'd run them over.

Yeah.

LeBron's defense would be filthy back in the hand check era. With his size and capable footspeed he'd be more regarded on that end, even though he is respected for what he has accomplished defensively.

I think his lack of one on one skills hurts him a bit if he played in Jordan's era. For Jordan if he works on his three and plays in the current era, it would help him counter the zones more effectively. Even so guys like West and Derozan are scoring big numbers with a ****** 3 point game, so I don't see this era slowing down MJ.

FOXHOUND
05-31-2017, 08:08 PM
They did add Deng, Dragic, Whiteside etc...

And Miller? Dude broke down upon signing that contract, and they also lost Udonis for a chunk of the year. Guys like Dampier, Big Z and the corpse of Mike Bibby were playing for them. There were many games where it seemed like they were playing 3 on 5.

Though Wade was still something special so Im sure he wills his team to HCA and 52 wins ish. They lose to Chicago, Boston and/or whatever team Bron is on.

Yes, they added players. Wade and Bosh also weren't in their prime anymore. Pippen and Grant were 28 and at their peak in 93-94, this comparison has always been senseless. This comparison would make more sense if the Bulls did that after the 2nd 3peat, as Pippen would have oddly enough been the same 33-years old and out of his prime that Wade was.

But they also have the money they spent on LeBron to add other talent.

FOXHOUND
05-31-2017, 08:13 PM
Imagine how many they would have lost if they hadn't added Whiteside, Deng and Dragic for part of the season.

he missed 29 in 13-14

Those 93-94 Bulls were also 1 game away from the ECF, and might have made it if Pippen doesn't throw a tissy about not taking a GW shot that went to Kukoc and caused who knows what kind of dysfunction between the team:cheers:

Imagine how many games the Bulls would have won if they didn't add Kukoc, Kerr and if Pippen was 33 instead of 28? If you're going to compare the situations directly then do so properly.

The 93-94 Bulls would have made it if the Knicks weren't awesome. :D

Shlumpledink
05-31-2017, 09:32 PM
If Lebron were in the hand-check area there is no doubt he would be a better defender than he already is, and he's pretty damn good. He wouldn't have to chase people around as much either so he could just hand check since he is physically stronger than anyone quicker than him from that era. Lebron playing defense and expending less energy on defense? Wow. Good night league.

MarkieMark48
06-01-2017, 07:57 AM
Imagine how many games the Bulls would have won if they didn't add Kukoc, Kerr and if Pippen was 33 instead of 28? If you're going to compare the situations directly then do so properly.

The 93-94 Bulls would have made it if the Knicks weren't awesome. :D

I thought we were comparing the teams that Lebron and Jordan both left? My bad if we werent. Maybe that first Cavs team would be more accurate comparison bc Mo Williams was 28 the year Lebron went to the heat

Kyben36
06-01-2017, 12:18 PM
imagine if Cleveland actually didn't turn down trades like JJ Hickson for Amare Stoudemire. Or maybe gave him something better than Mo Williams....

or do we want LeBron to win with D League players, something Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, or anyone else ever did?

Jordan's era is somehow becoming overrated badly around here. I guess it should come as no surprise, most adults were kids in that era, and everyone is guilty of getting caught up in nostalgia.

btw, did LeBron really destroy Cleveland? He left, they sucked, landed like 34 number 1 picks, and he came back, they won a chip. Doesn't sound like destroyed to me

they were no longer a competitive team when he left, is what i mean, when there are 3 teams that are competing in the east and they combine into one, it takes away 2 tams that would have been pushing them. Wades Heat and Lebrons Cavs should have been a rivalry in the east for years, instead, well,

Hawkeye15
06-01-2017, 01:38 PM
they were no longer a competitive team when he left, is what i mean, when there are 3 teams that are competing in the east and they combine into one, it takes away 2 tams that would have been pushing them. Wades Heat and Lebrons Cavs should have been a rivalry in the east for years, instead, well,

of course Cleveland wasn't competitive. They were one of the most poorly run teams in NBA history, landing LeBron ****ing James with the #1 pick doesn't change that. In fact, they showed even more stupidity while they had him. They seriously couldn't get him anything else besides Mo Williams, or a 59 year old Shaq, or Big Z? Cleveland wasn't competitive before LeBron, and why would we expect them to be competitive after LeBron? They drafted Irving, isn't he some mega superstar that is part of LeBron's MegaSuper team now? Or no?

Wade's Heat decided to toss away a season to clear space to sign James, as did a couple of other teams. Not sure where you get them as being something special, besides, Wade was breaking down by 11-12', they would have gone south anyways.

I don't get where the top 2 teams combined into 1. That is b.s. In fact, that is EXACTLY what Durant just did out west. Unless we believe the Spurs post-Duncan have actually been a title threat.

I get it man, you despise LeBron.

LOb0
06-01-2017, 02:30 PM
If Lebron were in the hand-check area there is no doubt he would be a better defender than he already is, and he's pretty damn good. He wouldn't have to chase people around as much either so he could just hand check since he is physically stronger than anyone quicker than him from that era. Lebron playing defense and expending less energy on defense? Wow. Good night league.

I think that's true, but his offense would suffer as his main method of scoring and offense is simply blowing past people. The one thing handchecking is designed to stop.

Hawkeye15
06-01-2017, 02:32 PM
I think that's true, but his offense would suffer as his main method of scoring and offense is simply blowing past people. The one thing handchecking is designed to stop.

it wouldn't really impact LeBron at all though. Handchecking didn't stop penetration for most when it was allowed, nor would it now.

mightybosstone
06-01-2017, 02:44 PM
The Eastern Conference of the early-mid '90s was much tougher than the East of the last 5-7 years, but as others have pointed out, Lebron has probably faced a tougher challenge in his Finals opponents. Also, it's worth noting that the East was much more challenging the first 5-7 years of Lebron's career, as those balanced Pistons squads, the Big 3 Celtics and the Wade/Shaq Heat team all won titles in the early-mid 2000s.

I'd argue that the early 2000s Eastern Conference was every bit as talented as the East in the 90s, and probably more so. That being said, then you get into the conversation of the late '80s East when Jordan first came into the league, and it becomes less fair. The Bad Boy Pistons and Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics were insanely good, deep basketball teams that won multiple titles.

So to recap, if I had to rank the eras of the Eastern Conference based on the talent of non-MJ and non-Lebron squads, it would be as follows:
1. Late '80s East
2. Early-mid 2000s East
3. Early-mid '90s East
4 (in distant last place): 2010s East

Heediot
06-01-2017, 03:37 PM
it wouldn't really impact LeBron at all though. Handchecking didn't stop penetration for most when it was allowed, nor would it now.

It would slow it down to a degree. The best penetrators in hand check era were also guys that were a threat from mid-range. Another element thats helpful in blowing by people is the ability to beat guys off the dribble when hand checking is involved. And part of setting up the defender is for him to respect your mid-range game which also opens up your ability to beat your man off the dribble and or blow by him. LeBron's game is basically come off a screen untouched with a full head of steam. It could still work in the hand check era, but it would still be tougher. If his mid-range and or off the dribble game was more varied and advanced , it can counter the hand-checking a bit. With Bron's and MJ's work ethic, I think they would find ways to adjust to their respective era's. I think A defender like Anthony Mason and or Rodman could give him fits in the hand-check era, but those guys weren't the norm, so there's that too.

Heediot
06-01-2017, 03:51 PM
To add to the above. Having a sick first step was also key to being a great penetrator back then. That's what made MJ, Clyde, KJ, Nique a big threat.

The combination of first step/handles to beat guys off the dribble/respected mid range (and or beyond) game is what can help guys penetrate better in the hand check era. As you can use and or combine different elements to set up the defender.

LeBron is fast when full speed/stride, but his first step is average. He's a good ball handler, but he's not a guy that is a rock you kind of ball handler. His mid-range game has been suspect through his career (a trait that the spurs exploitedin the finals a few years back).

His strength helps him though, if you can out muscle your man it somewhat makes up for the other elements that are weaker.

SteBO
06-01-2017, 03:58 PM
Heediot that's a fair point especially on the mid-range game. MJ had to really work on that element of his game since getting to the basket every time down came with punishment. LeBron's mid range game has been pretty on point most of this year......

papipapsmanny
06-01-2017, 04:27 PM
I hate when people argue that Jordan lost in the first round and Lebron never has..... There is a difference between Jordan losing to a 59 win team his rookie year and two historic boston teams, than Lebron not making the playoffs his rookie year and a 43 win Wizards team being the best team he ever faced in the first round.

That is not an argument for Jordan, but showing what a poor argument that is to use for Lebron.

People are getting into skill set now. The thing Jordan did better than anyone else I have ever seen his his in shot adjustments... not just layups, I have never seen anyone close to jordans level of being able to adjust his shot, during the shot to hit it. That is always sticks out to be about Jordan's game.

Hawkeye15
06-01-2017, 05:00 PM
It would slow it down to a degree. The best penetrators in hand check era were also guys that were a threat from mid-range. Another element thats helpful in blowing by people is the ability to beat guys off the dribble when hand checking is involved. And part of setting up the defender is for him to respect your mid-range game which also opens up your ability to beat your man off the dribble and or blow by him. LeBron's game is basically come off a screen untouched with a full head of steam. It could still work in the hand check era, but it would still be tougher. If his mid-range and or off the dribble game was more varied and advanced , it can counter the hand-checking a bit. With Bron's and MJ's work ethic, I think they would find ways to adjust to their respective era's. I think A defender like Anthony Mason and or Rodman could give him fits in the hand-check era, but those guys weren't the norm, so there's that too.

good point on needing a mid range game, however, with no zone, I just find it nearly impossible for any man to stay in front of James with success. Jordan dominated without it, but he became unstoppable with the midrange. I would imagine LeBron developed it back then, but who knows whether or not that is the case.

That being said, stopping someone his size/speed/strength is just not happening successfully no matter the rules.

To your followup, the first step is maybe the most important tool in basketball. LeBron doesn't have the burst many did, he relies on his ability to get you on his hip, and you are dead when that happens, because he is stronger than you. There has never been the overall combination of size, strength, and speed on the perimeter like LeBron.

Hawkeye15
06-01-2017, 05:02 PM
I hate when people argue that Jordan lost in the first round and Lebron never has..... There is a difference between Jordan losing to a 59 win team his rookie year and two historic boston teams, than Lebron not making the playoffs his rookie year and a 43 win Wizards team being the best team he ever faced in the first round.

That is not an argument for Jordan, but showing what a poor argument that is to use for Lebron.

People are getting into skill set now. The thing Jordan did better than anyone else I have ever seen his his in shot adjustments... not just layups, I have never seen anyone close to jordans level of being able to adjust his shot, during the shot to hit it. That is always sticks out to be about Jordan's game.

yeah, nobody compares to his ability to keep balance in the air. Some of his shots were virtually impossible.

joedaheights
06-02-2017, 10:48 AM
good point on needing a mid range game, however, with no zone, I just find it nearly impossible for any man to stay in front of James with success. Jordan dominated without it, but he became unstoppable with the midrange. I would imagine LeBron developed it back then, but who knows whether or not that is the case.

That being said, stopping someone his size/speed/strength is just not happening successfully no matter the rules.

To your followup, the first step is maybe the most important tool in basketball. LeBron doesn't have the burst many did, he relies on his ability to get you on his hip, and you are dead when that happens, because he is stronger than you. There has never been the overall combination of size, strength, and speed on the perimeter like LeBron.

To paragraph 2, the reason you don't just see someone at their best and compare it to others at their best and say "open and shut" is because... as Lebron showed in 2011, as Wilt showed in 69 and 70... players don't always play to their talent as well as Jordan did. Lebron has played to his talent more often than wilt, but has not ALWAYS been as good as a player of those attributes can be...

Or "sometimes players stop themselves"... so stopping them isn't needed. Lebron in 2011 was passive for no reason.. the only thing to fear was fear itself ... fear of alienating Wade, whatever

To your last paragraph, that's why despite his relative small size at 6'6" compared to Lebron and the super front court players... Jordan's talent is a wash. I'd only call him 85-90% of the talent that Lebron or Wilt was if MJ's first step was just "really good." But it was a first step that was never seen on a 6'6" player and likely never will be again. It was THE difference between he and Kobe...

I have tremendous respect for Lebron James and please.. realize we are splitting hairs between names that will have relevance in 50 years.... but ya know

GREATNESS ONE
06-02-2017, 11:01 AM
:laugh2: I love it!!! Making excuses left and righ, nom nom nom literally eating the tears of their haters :laugh2:

I applaud Durant fighting fire with Fire against Bronny

bklynny67
06-02-2017, 11:26 AM
Jordan no doubt had tougher competition in the East. This year is probably the best competition there was and CLE still steam rolled everyone.

bklynny67
06-02-2017, 11:34 AM
I think for seven games a year--when they've gone to seven--LeBron has had tougher competition than Jordan, but marginally.

If you take into consideration the grind of the regular season and the conference playoffs (the Bulls weren't going to be a top seeded team with MJ taking games off), I think it's a pretty open-and-shut case about who had overall more competition.

As said in the other thread, are the WCF winning Jazz any better than the current Clippers?
Are you referr to the Stockton Malone Jazz? Then absolutely they were better than the current Clippers.

Hawkeye15
06-02-2017, 11:38 AM
Are you referr to the Stockton Malone Jazz? Then absolutely they were better than the current Clippers.

I think if Paul/Griffin were robotically healthy like Stockton/Malone, they are very comparable teams. Alas, Griffin can never stay healthy, and Paul has gone through bouts of injuries as well.

Seriously, how many games did Stockton/Malone miss? Like 3 total combined haha?

effen5
06-02-2017, 11:45 AM
I think if Paul/Griffin were robotically healthy like Stockton/Malone, they are very comparable teams. Alas, Griffin can never stay healthy, and Paul has gone through bouts of injuries as well.

Seriously, how many games did Stockton/Malone miss? Like 3 total combined haha?

Malone is overall a better player than Griffin is imo. I would also take Stockton over Paul but I'd say it's pretty close.

Hawkeye15
06-02-2017, 11:53 AM
Malone is overall a better player than Griffin is imo. I would also take Stockton over Paul but I'd say it's pretty close.

I agree with Malone, except come playoffs he just seemed to take such a step back. The Stockton/Paul argument, they are too close for me to care arguing, but when you factor in John NEVER got hurt, and was basically a pencil in for 16/12 and staunch defense, I will probably take that over Paul being unhealthy at times, even if healthy Paul might be better.

joedaheights
06-02-2017, 12:00 PM
I think if Paul/Griffin were robotically healthy like Stockton/Malone, they are very comparable teams. Alas, Griffin can never stay healthy, and Paul has gone through bouts of injuries as well.

Seriously, how many games did Stockton/Malone miss? Like 3 total combined haha?

There are some players who are much better athletes than yesteryear .. and scientists have said humans don't evolve over a period of 25 or 50 years.. and no, plyometrics and whey protein doesn't do that either. Plyometrics, HGH, more plyometrics, Winnie Z and more plyometrics DOES do that, but better life fitness equipment does not. To quote Bo Jackson referencing equipment he was given "they think I work out. I don't"

So Griffin can jump over a car and all that... but that brings us to the thing that has you wondering what jimmy butler could be with a really good left hand dribble. What AAU basketball has done to the NBA game and where Griffin is lacking.

Look at Larry Bird, who was practically Bob saget relative to griffin athletically... I mean to hear people today tell it.. Julius Erving should have made Bird look like a helpless FOUR year old right?

I watch the shot Dennis Johnson hit catching birds famous steal from his left and then turning for a quick contested layup opposite side and wonder how many of today's NBA players could hit that? Lebron James? Recently retired Kobe? Yes. Griffin? I'm not sure.

I'm not one of these people who thinks that John paxson would start for a three time champion today... but doesn't there have to be some reason griffin hasn't done a lot more?

joedaheights
06-02-2017, 12:02 PM
I agree with Malone, except come playoffs he just seemed to take such a step back. The Stockton/Paul argument, they are too close for me to care arguing, but when you factor in John NEVER got hurt, and was basically a pencil in for 16/12 and staunch defense, I will probably take that over Paul being unhealthy at times, even if healthy Paul might be better.

Also keep in mind he jazz lost to a lot of bad teams in the stronger late 80s/early 90s.. they are one of the biggest lies in NBA history. As a Jordan fan I can freely admit the late 90s was ridiculously weaker than the early 90s... so I don't even think the jazz are that great...

Hawkeye15
06-02-2017, 12:17 PM
There are some players who are much better athletes than yesteryear .. and scientists have said humans don't evolve over a period of 25 or 50 years.. and no, plyometrics and whey protein doesn't do that either. Plyometrics, HGH, more plyometrics, Winnie Z and more plyometrics DOES do that, but better life fitness equipment does not. To quote Bo Jackson referencing equipment he was given "they think I work out. I don't"

So Griffin can jump over a car and all that... but that brings us to the thing that has you wondering what jimmy butler could be with a really good left hand dribble. What AAU basketball has done to the NBA game and where Griffin is lacking.

Look at Larry Bird, who was practically Bob saget relative to griffin athletically... I mean to hear people today tell it.. Julius Erving should have made Bird look like a helpless FOUR year old right?

I watch the shot Dennis Johnson hit catching birds famous steal from his left and then turning for a quick contested layup opposite side and wonder how many of today's NBA players could hit that? Lebron James? Recently retired Kobe? Yes. Griffin? I'm not sure.

I'm not one of these people who thinks that John paxson would start for a three time champion today... but doesn't there have to be some reason griffin hasn't done a lot more?

Griffin can't stay healthy is his problem. He also lacks IQ. He is an excellent ball handler for his position actually.

Modern day is all about specialization. Think of it. When we were kids, the hockey players were the only ones that did a year around sport. Now? Hell, every sport, when it's not season, has workshops, camps, development sessions, off season training, skill coaches, etc. It's so mechanical now. The analytics are so escalated now.

Athletes adapt. If James Harden were playing in 1991, he would shoot a million times more midrange jumpers. The players today are every bit as good as yesterday, it's just a more refined game now. Some would say almost too detailed.

Hawkeye15
06-02-2017, 12:18 PM
Also keep in mind he jazz lost to a lot of bad teams in the stronger late 80s/early 90s.. they are one of the biggest lies in NBA history. As a Jordan fan I can freely admit the late 90s was ridiculously weaker than the early 90s... so I don't even think the jazz are that great...

I don't think they are great either. I remember reading someone say Greg Ostertag was an elite defender. It made me question them haha.

effen5
06-02-2017, 12:22 PM
Also keep in mind he jazz lost to a lot of bad teams in the stronger late 80s/early 90s.. they are one of the biggest lies in NBA history. As a Jordan fan I can freely admit the late 90s was ridiculously weaker than the early 90s... so I don't even think the jazz are that great...

I completely agree with you, early/mid 90s imo had some really amazing teams. The end of the decade/2nd 3 peat, you are absolutely right, the league started to water down a bit which is why I didn't see any teams really challenging the Lakers/Spurs late 90s/early 00s.

joedaheights
06-02-2017, 01:48 PM
I don't think they are great either. I remember reading someone say Greg Ostertag was an elite defender. It made me question them haha.

As someone who was 21 living in Chicago at the time I'd meet jazz or pacers fans coming in town and have to explain to them, "no, you don't get it. This team just wouldn't play with the 91 Bulls. This version of John Stockton wouldn't advance the ball against Pippen and Grant at 25 and Jordan at 28 shooting the lanes and able to recover.

I assume you've watched pieces of the 98 and 91 finals ... can you picture bryon Russell guarding 91 Jordan? At all...

It happened in my favorite teams era and I'll be the first to admit.. the raptors and grizzlies were too many roster spots

joedaheights
06-02-2017, 02:04 PM
Griffin can't stay healthy is his problem. He also lacks IQ. He is an excellent ball handler for his position actually.

Modern day is all about specialization. Think of it. When we were kids, the hockey players were the only ones that did a year around sport. Now? Hell, every sport, when it's not season, has workshops, camps, development sessions, off season training, skill coaches, etc. It's so mechanical now. The analytics are so escalated now.

Athletes adapt. If James Harden were playing in 1991, he would shoot a million times more midrange jumpers. The players today are every bit as good as yesterday, it's just a more refined game now. Some would say almost too detailed.

There's a lot in here but there have been series where Griffin has played... where you just walk away thinking ... with his athleticism he and his team should just flat do better. So what is it?

And I do think MOST eras give a little of x and gain a little of y and vice Versa

Hawkeye15
06-02-2017, 02:07 PM
As someone who was 21 living in Chicago at the time I'd meet jazz or pacers fans coming in town and have to explain to them, "no, you don't get it. This team just wouldn't play with the 91 Bulls. This version of John Stockton wouldn't advance the ball against Pippen and Grant at 25 and Jordan at 28 shooting the lanes and able to recover.

I assume you've watched pieces of the 98 and 91 finals ... can you picture bryon Russell guarding 91 Jordan? At all...

It happened in my favorite teams era and I'll be the first to admit.. the raptors and grizzlies were too many roster spots

The Jazz were good, but not great. I also don't think any one man could stop 1991 Michael Jordan, the absolute peak of the GOAT.

MarkieMark48
06-02-2017, 02:43 PM
I hate when people argue that Jordan lost in the first round and Lebron never has..... There is a difference between Jordan losing to a 59 win team his rookie year and two historic boston teams, than Lebron not making the playoffs his rookie year and a 43 win Wizards team being the best team he ever faced in the first round.

That is not an argument for Jordan, but showing what a poor argument that is to use for Lebron.

People are getting into skill set now. The thing Jordan did better than anyone else I have ever seen his his in shot adjustments... not just layups, I have never seen anyone close to jordans level of being able to adjust his shot, during the shot to hit it. That is always sticks out to be about Jordan's game.

The reasoning behind it (I think) is because some view Lebrons first Cavs finals appearance as just another finals loss.

Personally I view both as major achievements for both players.

papipapsmanny
06-02-2017, 07:26 PM
Also keep in mind he jazz lost to a lot of bad teams in the stronger late 80s/early 90s.. they are one of the biggest lies in NBA history. As a Jordan fan I can freely admit the late 90s was ridiculously weaker than the early 90s... so I don't even think the jazz are that great...

Provide some evidence....

The last year of Jazz vs Bulls the Jazz went through an aged but talented Houston team. Then they dominated the next two series against very talented Lakers and Spurs teams, going 8-1 against them. And the west only gets better every year prior to then.

What bad team in the West did they lose to? The 96 Sonics, the 94, and 95 Rockets, the 93 Sonics, the 92 Blazers, the 91 Blazers, the 90 Suns, The 89 Warriors.... that seems to be the "worst" team they lost to, which was very talented with two future HOF on it.

You sir are the one coming up with the lie here