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View Full Version : Making the Case Kobe is Better than West



Redrum187
05-27-2017, 10:17 PM
I'm a believer that Jerry West is superior to Kobe Bryant in almost every basketball metric there is. I believe West is the better season and postseason scorer, the more efficient scorer (even when there wasn't a 3 point line which he would have been able to shoot well from if it was implemented in the game back them), the better shooter, the better rebounder, the better passer, and a wash defensively (though I still want to give West the edge).

Make the case Kobe is better without bringing in "ringz". Feel free to use the MVP Chris Paul should have won in 2008, but be ready to address why Kobe was more deserving than CP3 even when just about every basketball metrics with the exception of total points per game show CP3 was the rightful MVP.

Federal Reserve
05-27-2017, 10:23 PM
Jerry West played during a time when his primary defender was the local milkman and the help defender was a school teacher. Kobe the 11-13th greatest player of all time. West is somewhere in the top 30-50 for having influenced the game the way that he has.

Redrum187
05-27-2017, 10:28 PM
Jerry West played during a time when his primary defender was the local milkman and the help defender was a school teacher. Kobe the 11-13th greatest player of all time. West is somewhere in the top 30-50 for having influenced the game the way that he has.

30-50? :speechless:

Federal Reserve
05-27-2017, 10:37 PM
30-50? :speechless:

Yes. My rating factors in skill more than anything else. Take Bill Russell. He averaged 15ppg. Do you think that he would be picked in the top 50 (if someone were starting a team)? No. But I do factor in his popularity to help bring the game to where it is today. Russell deserves to be in the top 50 as does West based on THEIR INFLUENCES. I give the nod to West because his skill, I believe, would be very relevant in today's NBA.

West won one ring in all of his playing days. Again, that's not bad. But when you start comparing him to someone like Kobe, it's hard to have an argument. West himself even said that he wants to be removed as the Logo because he believes there have been players better than himself (i.e. Jordan, Bird, Magic). Kobe isn't too far off (top 11-13th greatest player of all time).

Shammyguy3
05-27-2017, 11:12 PM
If West is arguably top 50 then how is wilt ranked so highly lol

jaydubb
05-28-2017, 04:21 AM
I'm a believer that Jerry West is superior to Kobe Bryant in almost every basketball metric there is. I believe West is the better season and postseason scorer, the more efficient scorer (even when there wasn't a 3 point line which he would have been able to shoot well from if it was implemented in the game back them), the better shooter, the better rebounder, the better passer, and a wash defensively (though I still want to give West the edge).

Make the case Kobe is better without bringing in "ringz". Feel free to use the MVP Chris Paul should have won in 2008, but be ready to address why Kobe was more deserving than CP3 even when just about every basketball metrics with the exception of total points per game show CP3 was the rightful MVP.

Man you must be like 60 or 70 at the very least to make these comparisons.. I haven't really seen Jerry west play enough to make the claims that you've made, but more power to ya.

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Shammyguy3
05-28-2017, 12:43 PM
Man you must be like 60 or 70 at the very least to make these comparisons.. I haven't really seen Jerry west play enough to make the claims that you've made, but more power to ya.

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It's definitely very difficult. But how can someone put Wilt above Hakeem if they never saw Wilt play?

lol, please
05-28-2017, 12:53 PM
It's definitely very difficult. But how can someone put Wilt above Hakeem if they never saw Wilt play?

Read about him, watch the footage that exists, take personal accounts of people of the era into account, and consider his stats while minding to adjust for the differences in eras, and be as objective as possible.

The same way I can rate people who played before my time in any sport.

The whole "well I wasn't around during that time so I'm not including them / ranking them fairly against modern players" is an incredibly weak cop-out to do a sound analysis and / or give credit when it's due to past greats.

europagnpilgrim
05-28-2017, 02:13 PM
Jerry West played during a time when his primary defender was the local milkman and the help defender was a school teacher. Kobe the 11-13th greatest player of all time. West is somewhere in the top 30-50 for having influenced the game the way that he has.

Outside of a handful or two solid on ball defenders in today/modern era its a whole bunch of players who play defense worse than a local milkman and school teacher, at least those type would put forth the effort despite being the inferior athlete, and that's what defense is highly predicated on, effort/energy

jaydubb
05-28-2017, 03:19 PM
Read about him, watch the footage that exists, take personal accounts of people of the era into account, and consider his stats while minding to adjust for the differences in eras, and be as objective as possible.

The same way I can rate people who played before my time in any sport.

The whole "well I wasn't around during that time so I'm not including them / ranking them fairly against modern players" is an incredibly weak cop-out to do a sound analysis and / or give credit when it's due to past greats.
Where do you get this footage? I've only seen highlights on YouTube

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jaydubb
05-28-2017, 03:43 PM
It's definitely very difficult. But how can someone put Wilt above Hakeem if they never saw Wilt play?
Everybody has a different way of ranking players I guess. Me personally, I like to actually watch both players play several games before I can give a good educated judgment on who's better at specific parts of their game. If other people want to make judgements based on other people's opinions then that's fine, I'm not gonna argue with that, I personally take it with a grain of salt though unless I've seen enough of both players play to make a good judgment call, that's why I never give much input into "who's better this guy or this guy" threads unless it's players from the eras that I've personally watched. I just don't see too much game film from the 60s, wish there was but there's just not much unfortunately and I personally don't like to take other people's word for it

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europagnpilgrim
05-28-2017, 03:48 PM
Where do you get this footage? I've only seen highlights on YouTube

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when did highlights not equate to some sort of level of footage on a player?

I mean if you go watch Jordan/Lebron/Shaq highlights it would show footage of them doing what they do best, so why would it be any different than watching Wilt highlights and coming to a conclusion on just that?

you would have to blame the nba for secretly hiding more game film on Wilt so it wont show you the number of crazy block numbers he would have put up, you would sit there and be in awe of watching a player put up 50+pts and 30+ rebounds to go along with 20 blocks and 10 assists and steals to go along with it

those numbers alone should be enough to let you know right there and I don't give a damn what era he played in because he could have easily just up 15 and 10 and then you would be screaming about how he was so big and athletic and wasted his talent, but he went above and beyond and his athletic ability combined with height/Paul Bunyan strength is unmatched no matter the era, that's the scariest part about Wilt

europagnpilgrim
05-28-2017, 03:55 PM
Man you must be like 60 or 70 at the very least to make these comparisons.. I haven't really seen Jerry west play enough to make the claims that you've made, but more power to ya.

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I haven't seen enough actual full game film on either West or Wilt but West said it himself that Wilt is the most dominant player ever, even if you don't like to take peoples word for it you have to at least be open minded and do some research on it, just like most say Jordan is the GOAT, you don't have to take them at face value but it carries some weight rather you watched Jordan or not

jaydubb
05-28-2017, 04:02 PM
when did highlights not equate to some sort of level of footage on a player?

I mean if you go watch Jordan/Lebron/Shaq highlights it would show footage of them doing what they do best, so why would it be any different than watching Wilt highlights and coming to a conclusion on just that?

you would have to blame the nba for secretly hiding more game film on Wilt so it wont show you the number of crazy block numbers he would have put up, you would sit there and be in awe of watching a player put up 50+pts and 30+ rebounds to go along with 20 blocks and 10 assists and steals to go along with it

those numbers alone should be enough to let you know right there and I don't give a damn what era he played in because he could have easily just up 15 and 10 and then you would be screaming about how he was so big and athletic and wasted his talent, but he went above and beyond and his athletic ability combined with height/Paul Bunyan strength is unmatched no matter the era, that's the scariest part about Wilt

Highlights are footage on a player, yes, but highlights only show the best of their plays so in my opinion from watching some highlights, for example, you can't get an idea of who's the better defender because they aren't gonna show a guy getting blown by in highlights, you also can't get an accounting of who's the better shooter because highlights only show made baskets and no there weren't any field goal charts based on where shots have gone up unfortunately. They also aren't gonna show any other weaknesses in a highlight film. So if no weaknesses are shown and all someone has seen is great fantastic plays, how can one honestly say who's better? Like I said in my last post though, if other people wanna look at these highlights or take other people's word for it on who's better then I'm cool with that, I personally just like to see more before I can give an opinion though.


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jaydubb
05-28-2017, 04:11 PM
I haven't seen enough actual full game film on either West or Wilt but West said it himself that Wilt is the most dominant player ever, even if you don't like to take peoples word for it you have to at least be open minded and do some research on it, just like most say Jordan is the GOAT, you don't have to take them at face value but it carries some weight rather you watched Jordan or not

No I agree, especially with players that have played against competition then and also seen competition now. I feel like their opinions hold more value than someone that has only watched highlights if that makes sense. You keep bringing up wilt, I haven't seen much on him but I do know that he was a 7'0 270 pound track star so to me that also bears some weight as far as playing in his own era versus another era. I think a player that big, that skilled, and that athletic could translate to other eras pretty well because there hasn't really ever in the history of basketball been a player that big that can high jump or sprint or bench press like he could.

As far as a comparison like Jerry west to Kobe, that extremely intrigues me to be honest because both were killer scorers and I'd love to know more about this comparison, there's just not a lot of footage on Jerry west and he wasn't the athletic huge mismatch that wilt was.

I've asked for footage because I legitimately wanna see old game footage.. haha I'd love to to actually watch 60s and 70s basketball games


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Jamiecballer
05-28-2017, 06:04 PM
Where do you get this footage? I've only seen highlights on YouTube

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Winner. Watch how they try to wriggle out of this one.

Jamiecballer
05-28-2017, 06:08 PM
Nuts, looks like I missed the self deception already.

valade16
05-28-2017, 10:52 PM
Where do you get this footage? I've only seen highlights on YouTube

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Hardwood classics has a ton of old games. It's actually awesome to watch them and see how the league was at various points.

FlashBolt
05-28-2017, 11:14 PM
The only footage of Wilt is the one where he dunks over white guys who look like they knit during their off days.

TheNumber37
05-28-2017, 11:53 PM
Most modern NBA players will beat older generations of players I feel like, simply because of style of play.

Modern NBA players have the advantage of basketball history of what works and what doesn't work.

If Kobe Bryant took his skills and knowledge of the game to West's era, I think he'd average numbers etter than West even without 3s +.

europagnpilgrim
05-29-2017, 01:16 AM
Highlights are footage on a player, yes, but highlights only show the best of their plays so in my opinion from watching some highlights, for example, you can't get an idea of who's the better defender because they aren't gonna show a guy getting blown by in highlights, you also can't get an accounting of who's the better shooter because highlights only show made baskets and no there weren't any field goal charts based on where shots have gone up unfortunately. They also aren't gonna show any other weaknesses in a highlight film. So if no weaknesses are shown and all someone has seen is great fantastic plays, how can one honestly say who's better? Like I said in my last post though, if other people wanna look at these highlights or take other people's word for it on who's better then I'm cool with that, I personally just like to see more before I can give an opinion though.


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Then it comes down to the peers interviews/soundbites of those certain players you didn't get to see along with your family members/friends or whoever may have been lucky enough to see those players or you dissecting documentaries on those players

highlights can show you what the best of the best can do, if you go watch a Curry highlight it will be majority of hitting 3's with a few driving tough layups but overwhelmingly shooting and hitting 3's/breaking ankles which is what he is known for by many to be the best 3pt shooter ever, his dad was a flame thrower as well

if you go watch a Jordan defensive video you will see him doing what he does and on the offensive side you will see him attacking the basket/hitting tough shots/mid range-fadeaway

Wilt has defensive videos on him as well as dunk and game/allstar/strength, they even have a whole hour dedicated to his many array of post moves/fadeway etc.

if you need more than that then you must be a late bloomer on judging a players abilities, which is all good

Really a player is who he is out of college, well the best most dominant types are that way, not really speaking on the fringe all star caliber but the sure fire dominant franchise changing players who don't come along but so often

West was a deadly shooter in his day, 3pt line I don't think were back then but if it was he would have been one of the best of his time and one of the best all time

all players have a weakness but the true legends impact the game in ways you overlook a FT pct or turnovers or whatever minor weakness they have, and I am pretty sure all players have been blown by rather they are known to be elite defenders or sub par so I am not sure how that would sway you to think this player is better than that one based on that, plus if you have played long enough you are bound to get dunked on as well which doesn't mean you are a terrible shot blocker, ish just happens in the nba

europagnpilgrim
05-29-2017, 01:26 AM
The only footage of Wilt is the one where he dunks over white guys who look like they knit during their off days.

Its way more Euro/white guys in todays nba so what does that mean? Lebron made the call to get him a white guy to join him to spot up and shoot 3's when he made his way back to Cleveland second time around, and later this season when he added another white guy who can shoot 3's in Korver, Korver is nothing special and Love was a stat stuffer who couldn't lead his team to one single playoff series as the alpha dog

the league has so many white guys/euro draft picks stockpiled overseas that will be coming over in the near future, so what does that tell you? and all they can do is shoot 3's for the most part or take up a roster spot from someone who is better in the DLeague, Ricky Rubio is a prime example of that, its many others as well

Wilt was dunking on Russell/Bellamy/Gilmore/Lanier/Unseld/Reed and whoever else and later in his twilight years he was dunking on Jabbar

You make it seem like it was Wilts fault because of the pagan culture that was the nba when he first entered and changed the landscape completely, from playing above the rim to his skill set and dominance of the game, you can only dominate the era which you played and he did so like no other before or after

some of these Euro/white players in the nba should be knitting during game days, Scalabrine, Morrison and many others of the past and today just taking up space

Lebron just wiped out midgets Smart/Bradley while being switched in pick n rolls with ManBun and Jerekbo from Boston, two slow footed white guys

Shaq was dunking on Muresan and Shawn Bradley/Dudley and others, white guys who should have been bagging groceries at the local farmers market

and its plenty of footage of what I am speaking on, unless you mistake Europeans as something other than white guys, which I dont

jaydubb
05-29-2017, 10:32 AM
Then it comes down to the peers interviews/soundbites of those certain players you didn't get to see along with your family members/friends or whoever may have been lucky enough to see those players or you dissecting documentaries on those players

highlights can show you what the best of the best can do, if you go watch a Curry highlight it will be majority of hitting 3's with a few driving tough layups but overwhelmingly shooting and hitting 3's/breaking ankles which is what he is known for by many to be the best 3pt shooter ever, his dad was a flame thrower as well

if you go watch a Jordan defensive video you will see him doing what he does and on the offensive side you will see him attacking the basket/hitting tough shots/mid range-fadeaway

Wilt has defensive videos on him as well as dunk and game/allstar/strength, they even have a whole hour dedicated to his many array of post moves/fadeway etc.

if you need more than that then you must be a late bloomer on judging a players abilities, which is all good

Really a player is who he is out of college, well the best most dominant types are that way, not really speaking on the fringe all star caliber but the sure fire dominant franchise changing players who don't come along but so often

West was a deadly shooter in his day, 3pt line I don't think were back then but if it was he would have been one of the best of his time and one of the best all time

all players have a weakness but the true legends impact the game in ways you overlook a FT pct or turnovers or whatever minor weakness they have, and I am pretty sure all players have been blown by rather they are known to be elite defenders or sub par so I am not sure how that would sway you to think this player is better than that one based on that, plus if you have played long enough you are bound to get dunked on as well which doesn't mean you are a terrible shot blocker, ish just happens in the nba

And what are the weaknesses that you noticed in Jerry Wests game?

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GREATNESS ONE
05-29-2017, 10:36 AM
The only footage of Wilt is the one where he dunks over white guys who look like they knit during their off days.

:laugh: this post legit made me laugh.

FlashBolt
05-29-2017, 11:20 AM
Its way more Euro/white guys in todays nba so what does that mean? Lebron made the call to get him a white guy to join him to spot up and shoot 3's when he made his way back to Cleveland second time around, and later this season when he added another white guy who can shoot 3's in Korver, Korver is nothing special and Love was a stat stuffer who couldn't lead his team to one single playoff series as the alpha dog

the league has so many white guys/euro draft picks stockpiled overseas that will be coming over in the near future, so what does that tell you? and all they can do is shoot 3's for the most part or take up a roster spot from someone who is better in the DLeague, Ricky Rubio is a prime example of that, its many others as well

Wilt was dunking on Russell/Bellamy/Gilmore/Lanier/Unseld/Reed and whoever else and later in his twilight years he was dunking on Jabbar

You make it seem like it was Wilts fault because of the pagan culture that was the nba when he first entered and changed the landscape completely, from playing above the rim to his skill set and dominance of the game, you can only dominate the era which you played and he did so like no other before or after

some of these Euro/white players in the nba should be knitting during game days, Scalabrine, Morrison and many others of the past and today just taking up space

Lebron just wiped out midgets Smart/Bradley while being switched in pick n rolls with ManBun and Jerekbo from Boston, two slow footed white guys

Shaq was dunking on Muresan and Shawn Bradley/Dudley and others, white guys who should have been bagging groceries at the local farmers market

and its plenty of footage of what I am speaking on, unless you mistake Europeans as something other than white guys, which I dont

1) The Euro guys today actually know how to play basketball because Europeans built a system the past twenty years. Wilt never played against those Euro players.
2) It's a known fact that most legitimate black players (who are the better players) were not allowed to play in the NBA for obvious reasons. It's why so many players respect Bill for paving the way. Let me ask you, what do you think happens when 90% of the black players today are replaced with WHITE players? Do you think it'll be easier for guys like LeBron to dominate?
3) No, I make it seem like Wilt played against much more inferior players. I don't care to respond to you regarding Wilt or much of anything you say. The fact you think Wilt could average more than 50/25 in today's league is pretty absurd.
4) Wilt played against what? 8-10 teams? There was no parity in the league. Just crappy teams all around and he beat them down because he was legitimately the only one of his kind. As I said before, most blacks were not even allowed to play in the NBA. Not to mention the game was still undeveloped and paying chump change. It was far less advanced and talented than it is today.. much less.

europagnpilgrim
05-29-2017, 12:26 PM
And what are the weaknesses that you noticed in Jerry Wests game?

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I haven't watched enough of him or really much at all because he wouldn't be one of the players I would draft to start a franchise in my circle so I got the info from other reliable sources evaluating his game, I get he was a scorer/shooter who later played the PG position, to me he would be I guess a better version of G Hayward of today if I just had to dissect him from afar, he got his name mr. clutch from I don't know what because going 1-8/9 in Finals is not clutch at all in my book and on top of that got the logo as well

I would have to say his dribbling with one hand for pretty much the entire time was a weakness of his, I also heard he was a better athlete than what most thought

europagnpilgrim
05-29-2017, 12:43 PM
1) The Euro guys today actually know how to play basketball because Europeans built a system the past twenty years. Wilt never played against those Euro players.
2) It's a known fact that most legitimate black players (who are the better players) were not allowed to play in the NBA for obvious reasons. It's why so many players respect Bill for paving the way. Let me ask you, what do you think happens when 90% of the black players today are replaced with WHITE players? Do you think it'll be easier for guys like LeBron to dominate?
3) No, I make it seem like Wilt played against much more inferior players. I don't care to respond to you regarding Wilt or much of anything you say. The fact you think Wilt could average more than 50/25 in today's league is pretty absurd.
4) Wilt played against what? 8-10 teams? There was no parity in the league. Just crappy teams all around and he beat them down because he was legitimately the only one of his kind. As I said before, most blacks were not even allowed to play in the NBA. Not to mention the game was still undeveloped and paying chump change. It was far less advanced and talented than it is today.. much less.

1. Knowing how to play and being a force is two different things, the big man Euro of today and past would get destroyed by Wilt, the best I can think of off top are Sabonis and I guess Gasol and we all know what he would do with those guys, bbq chicken, the Euros built a system of 3pt shooting/finesse game and flooding the nba with it making it soft and its a reason why most stay stashed over there forever until they come here and litter the nba, they also got the entire nba flopping, Divac and others, so much for that system

2. Wilt played against those blacks not in the nba as well and dominated, its plenty of stories about that especially when he stopped a game for getting blocked from the weak side and did like 15-20 dunks no one has ever seen before, according to the player I think C Hawkins who was there, Wilt dominated the best interior defender ever who was black so why would it be any different in any era? he held his own as a old man against the young stud Kareem who was black, imagine if they were the same age, bbq chicken

3. He made them inferior, similar to how Lebron makes PG13/Derozan/old man Celtics team/Old Spurs team/New Celtics team look inferior, or do you think just because those players are black it means more than what you are leading on to? just because a player is black doesn't mean they are on equal footing, it means that society has realized that blacks sell tickets and are better entertainers/athletes, Wilt made Russell look like a child outside of the stacked team/ring factor, 28/28 he put up against arguably the best interior defender ever on average and they played many of times so it wasn't a small sample size like Lebron vs Leonard, imagine if they went at it in todays league like back then, that would be something to see, lesser teams in the nba would mean way better stronger competition, if you cant see that then you shouldn't respond on psd at all, its not me who thinks he would average 50ppg, its legends who have played the game said he would avg 70ppg and that was against the 90's Centers, J West said he would feel sorry for these Centers of today if they had to face Wilt, so take it up with those legends when you run into those guys

4. Imagine if you take the strongest/best 8 teams from each conference and you have 16 strong teams battling game in and out, that would be something to watch, Lebron would go up against the cream of the crop SF/teams way more frequent than not and that would be great for ratings/barbershop talk/competiton, 30 teams in a league doesn't mean its stronger, why do you feel that it does? it was 2-3 teams that were pretty much the talk of winning a title and like 2 weak darkhorses in the Rockets/Clippers, if you think making 3 shots out of 30 attempts is strong and effective then keep shooting, or just go bench yourself

now its just more crap *** teams in todays sport since the greed/ego of people have reached a all time high, so whats worse 8-10 crap *** teams or 25+ crap *** teams?

Wilt had the finger roll, the so called Tim Duncan 15ft bankshot, the skyhook(didn't do it much like Kareem) and other moves all while playing in the so called undeveloped league, and he was getting paid what a franchise pretty much cost to buy back then, so Lebron in todays league should be making at least 175-200mill per season since its some franchise worth 2+Billion

Chronz
05-29-2017, 03:45 PM
1) The Euro guys today actually know how to play basketball because Europeans built a system the past twenty years. Wilt never played against those Euro players.
2) It's a known fact that most legitimate black players (who are the better players) were not allowed to play in the NBA for obvious reasons. It's why so many players respect Bill for paving the way. Let me ask you, what do you think happens when 90% of the black players today are replaced with WHITE players? Do you think it'll be easier for guys like LeBron to dominate?
3) No, I make it seem like Wilt played against much more inferior players. I don't care to respond to you regarding Wilt or much of anything you say. The fact you think Wilt could average more than 50/25 in today's league is pretty absurd.
4) Wilt played against what? 8-10 teams? There was no parity in the league. Just crappy teams all around and he beat them down because he was legitimately the only one of his kind. As I said before, most blacks were not even allowed to play in the NBA. Not to mention the game was still undeveloped and paying chump change. It was far less advanced and talented than it is today.. much less.

Where do you get your fake statistics?

still1ballin
05-29-2017, 04:19 PM
Wat?

krazylegz
05-29-2017, 04:25 PM
hard to really ask anybody for this comparision on this site since over 50% of people on here are in their teens or early twentys....they never seen jerry west play

YAALREADYKNO
05-30-2017, 05:58 PM
Kobe>West

Chronz
05-31-2017, 10:22 AM
Dantheman just released some unseen footage, for most anyways;https://youtu.be/USUgRNDkupA