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View Full Version : IF the Cavs/LeBron can beat this years Warriors, where do you rank him next to Jordan



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Jeffy25
05-23-2017, 10:55 PM
It's a popular question. Thoughts?

tredigs
05-23-2017, 11:00 PM
Depends on who the best player on their team in the series is (past couple games here in the ECF's it has been Kyrie, for one. Also if and what injuries occur (always a huge wild card), and how the series goes as a whole. You can't just answer this question without knowing how it would happen.

Not a problem I think we will have to worry about though.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:00 PM
Still behind him. I can't get the 2011 out of my head and although he'll have beaten an insane Warriors team back-to-back, I think a threepeat against Warriors would be it for me. If he does that, he's above MJ.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-23-2017, 11:01 PM
Depends on how the series goes.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:08 PM
Depends on who the best player on their team in the series is (past couple games here in the ECF's it has been Kyrie, for one. Also if and what injuries occur (always a huge wild card), and how the series goes as a whole. You can't just answer this question without knowing how it would happen.

Not a problem I think we will have to worry about though.

Well, if Cavs beat Warriors, it means Warriors just underperformed. It's as simple as that. Cavs, theoretically, shouldn't beat the Warriors.

JordansBulls
05-23-2017, 11:24 PM
Cavs are defending champions they shouldn't lose anyway is how I see it. Hell Jordan didn't lose once he won the title and was the defending champion.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:24 PM
Cavs are defending champions they shouldn't lose anyway is how I see it. Hell Jordan didn't lose once he won the title and was the defending champion.

Cavs shouldn't have won last year, though.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:25 PM
Depends on who the best player on their team in the series is (past couple games here in the ECF's it has been Kyrie, for one. Also if and what injuries occur (always a huge wild card), and how the series goes as a whole. You can't just answer this question without knowing how it would happen.

Not a problem I think we will have to worry about though.


Yeah context matters. If LeBron plays poorly this could also end the Jordan argument.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:27 PM
Cavs shouldn't have won last year, though.

If LeBron was aggressive as he was in 5,6, and 7. They might of won earlier.

I mean, I picked them to win, and Curry was choking. Its not like that Warriors team that almost lost to the Thunder was unbeatable.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:29 PM
If LeBron was aggressive as he was in 5,6, and 7. They might of.

I mean, I picked them to win, and Curry was choking. Its not like that Warriors team that almost lost to the Thunder was unbeatable.

Hindsight doesn't count. Most people had Warriors winning and that's all I will say about it. You can say you had Cavs winning and Curry was choking but Love wasn't even doing anything all series. Any time a guy leads a series in rebounds, points, steals, blocks, and points.. they played otherworldly. Just leading in one category is insane. Dude led in ALL. If Curry doesn't choke, Warriors win. There's no scenario cavs win unless Warriors play bad or Cavs just play much better than the Warriors - which shouldn't happen. Warriors just had more weapons.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:33 PM
Hindsight doesn't count. Most people had Warriors winning and that's all I will say about it. You can say you had Cavs winning and Curry was choking but Love wasn't even doing anything all series. Any time a guy leads a series in rebounds, points, steals, blocks, and points.. they played otherworldly. Just leading in one category is insane. Dude led in ALL.

That Warriors team was overrated at that point. I'm glad he won but, you're making it sound like he pulled off this feat that no one else could do, when the Thunder had them beat and Klay needed 11 threes to pull off a win.

I thought they'd win. I knew that team was flawed at that point. If "everyone" was picking GS they weren't paying enough attention.

JordansBulls
05-23-2017, 11:36 PM
Cavs shouldn't have won last year, though.

True. They won because of a suspension otherwise they gone in game 5. But GS shouldn't had even beaten OKC either.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:38 PM
That Warriors team was overrated at that point. I'm glad he won but, you're making it sound like he pulled off this feat that no one else could do, when the Thunder had them beat and Klay needed 11 threes to pull off a win.

I thought they'd win. I knew that team was flawed at that point. If "everyone" was picking GS they weren't paying enough attention.

But they didn't beat them.. so that's a moot point. Fact is, that Warriors team was 73-9 and were heavy favorites going to the Finals... So like I said, you can say the Cavs should have won but by most, they were the underdogs. Btw, you can't say Warriors weren't as good as everyone thought because OKC almost beat them but then not use the same argument for the Cavs when Warriors were up 3-1 against them and Cavs came back. If someone can pull the thread back up, I think it was 80% warriors 20% cavs. Vegas had Warriors winning big-time. Odds weren't in Cavs favor.. so they won and that's that.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-23-2017, 11:38 PM
Cavs are defending champions they shouldn't lose anyway is how I see it. Hell Jordan didn't lose once he won the title and was the defending champion.

Jordan also never faced a team with four of the league's best 20 players on it.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:39 PM
That Warriors team was overrated at that point. I'm glad he won but, you're making it sound like he pulled off this feat that no one else could do, when the Thunder had them beat and Klay needed 11 threes to pull off a win.

I thought they'd win. I knew that team was flawed at that point. If "everyone" was picking GS they weren't paying enough attention.

Okay, please stop quoting me. I'm tired of going back-and-forth with you regarding nonsense like this.

JordansBulls
05-23-2017, 11:40 PM
Jordan also never faced a team with four of the league's best 20 players on it.

GS has two top 20 players just like Cleveland does. Dray nor Klay are even top 30 to me.
Besides that Lebron also lost with 3 of the best 10 players on it as well to a team with only 1 star. Not to mention also lost to a team with it's best player was Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:43 PM
But they didn't beat them.. so that's a moot point. Fact is, that Warriors team was 73-9 and were heavy favorites going to the Finals... So like I said, you can say the Cavs should have won but by most, they were the underdogs. Btw, you can't say Warriors weren't as good as everyone thought because OKC almost beat them but then not use the same argument for the Cavs when Warriors were up 3-1 against them and Cavs came back. If someone can pull the thread back up, I think it was 80% warriors 20% cavs. Vegas had Warriors winning big-time. Odds weren't in Cavs favor.. so they won and that's that.


Sorry to break this to you but, basketball is a bit random. Bottom line here, this feat that you think "Only LeBron could have done" Is wrong. Thunder had them beat, and an all time Klay game, breaking the record for playoff 3s saved them. That game would have beat the Cavs as well.

That Warriors team was not the same team that was in the regular season. Cavs were down 3-1 because LeBron wasn't being aggressive. They could have won earlier had he been.

You want to blow Lebron clearly. So you try to sway everything towards him. I get it. I just love to keep pointing out how bias you are..

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-23-2017, 11:43 PM
GS has two top 20 players just like Cleveland does. Dray nor Klay are even top 30 to me.
Besides that Lebron also lost with 3 of the best 10 players on it as well to a team with only 1 star. Not to mention also lost to a team with it's best player was Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics.

I don't even know what to make of this.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:43 PM
GS has two top 20 players just like Cleveland does. Dray nor Klay are even top 30 to me.
Besides that Lebron also lost with 3 of the best 10 players on it as well to a team with only 1 star. Not to mention also lost to a team with it's best player was Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics.

Dray and Klay not top 30? Okay, make your list... As for the Olympics, WTF are you talking about? 2004? LeBron barely even played... AI was the reason USA lost. LeBron played like five minutes every game. Man, that's some weird narrative you're trying to spew.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-23-2017, 11:45 PM
PSD's NBA forum, where "Klay Thompson and Draymond Green aren't even top 30 players in the league" happens.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:46 PM
Dray and Klay not top 30? Okay, make your list... As for the Olympics, WTF are you talking about? 2004? LeBron barely even played... AI was the reason USA lost. LeBron played like five minutes every game. Man, that's some weird narrative you're trying to spew.

Right. There are plenty of LeBron choke jobs to bring up. We don't to use that.

JordansBulls
05-23-2017, 11:47 PM
Dray and Klay not top 30? Okay, make your list... As for the Olympics, WTF are you talking about? 2004? LeBron barely even played... AI was the reason USA lost. LeBron played like five minutes every game. Man, that's some weird narrative you're trying to spew.

FIBA to. Love is much better than Dray and Klay. Lebron marginalizes his teammates. We have seen on two separate occasions where he joined guys in there primes and formed superteams and they start to suck with him around.

Wade and Bosh were #2 and #4 in the league in PER and then Love was a 26 and 14 player with Kyrie the allstar game mvp winner. All of which were studs. But once they play with Lebron they start to suck quick.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:47 PM
Sorry to break this to you but, basketball is a bit random. Bottom line here, this feat that you think "Only LeBron could have done" Is wrong. Thunder had them beat, and an all time Klay game, breaking the record for playoff 3s saved them. That game would have beat the Cavs as well.

That Warriors team was not the same team that was in the regular season. Cavs were down 3-1 because LeBron wasn't being aggressive. They could have won earlier had he been.

You want to blow Lebron clearly. So you try to sway everything towards him. I get it. I just love to keep pointing out how bias you are..

No, just MOST people had Warriors winning because Warriors were clearly a better team. You're using strawman arguments every time such as saying I said "everyone" when I clearly used most. And you keep saying I blow LeBron because it's literally your only way of inflating your argument. Just please, stop quoting me. It's always you initiating the quote and it's pointless debating anything with you. You're seriously debating that because YOU chose the Cavs, everyone else wasn't paying attention. Stop. IDC who you picked. Betting odds weren't in your favor. 73-9 Warriors with a 2x MVP and unanimous one, 2nd in DPOY voting. Just please, stop quoting me. I only have trolls on my ignore but it's seriously a waste of effort trying to reply to you.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:48 PM
Right. There are plenty of LeBron choke jobs to bring up. We don't to use that.

He's played in thousands of games and hundreds of playoffs games. A few bad games = choke jobs = bound to happen to 99% of players. Jordan never had one? Okay, good for him. Go find me another player who never had one.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:50 PM
No, just MOST people had Warriors winning because Warriors were clearly a better team. You're using strawman arguments every time such as saying I said "everyone" when I clearly used most. And you keep saying I blow LeBron because it's literally your only way of inflating your argument. Just please, stop quoting me. It's always you initiating the quote and it's pointless debating anything with you. You're seriously debating that because YOU chose the Cavs, everyone else wasn't paying attention. Stop. IDC who you picked. Betting odds weren't in your favor. 73-9 Warriors with a 2x MVP and unanimous one, 2nd in DPOY voting. Just please, stop quoting me. I only have trolls on my ignore but it's seriously a waste of effort trying to reply to you.


lol they should have lost to the Thunder. Curry was hurt or whatever the hell was going on with him. Bron was already good enough to beat them twice the year before with a D-league squad. Why is it so surprising?

For someone that is sucking off LeBron you sure had little faith in him last year.

I think the clear narrative you're pushing here is, you're trying to build up that Bron did something no one else could have done. When that's simply wrong when it took the NBA playoff record for 3s for the Warriors to even get to the finals.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:50 PM
FIBA to. Love is much better than Dray and Klay. Lebron marginalizes his teammates. We have seen on two separate occasions where he joined guys in there primes and formed superteams and they start to suck with him around.

Wade and Bosh were #2 and #4 in the league in PER and then Love was a 26 and 14 player with Kyrie the allstar game mvp winner. All of which were studs. But once they play with Lebron they start to suck quick.

Name 30 players better than Green and Klay or quit wasting everyone's time.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:54 PM
lol they should have lost to the Thunder. Curry was hurt or whatever the hell was going on with him. Bron was already good enough to beat them twice the year before with a D-league squad. Why is it so surprising?

For someone that is sucking off LeBron you sure had little faith in him last year.

Literally last time I'm ever responding to you just because you act like a child.

1) Go play your hypothetical scenarios all you want. Should've, would've, could've. Keep using them.
2) Warriors got much better. Curry got much better - having an offensive season that ranks top five ever. Draymond improved.

I'm going to just put you on ignore for sanity sake. You literally can't help yourself so I'm not going to spend 10+ minutes every time dealing with someone who loves to use the word "suck." I guess you do it often.

And this "narrative" I'm trying to push isn't MY narrative. It's literally most of the NBA fanbase. I would entertain you with every article by media members but you're someone who clearly lacks any facts.

JordansBulls
05-23-2017, 11:56 PM
Name 30 players better than Green and Klay or quit wasting everyone's time.

Here are 30 and they are more as well

Davis
Harden
Curry
Durant
Kawhi
Gasol
Westbrook
Hayward
Deandre
Blake
CP3
Lebron
Love
Giannis
Kyrie
Jimmy
George
Wall
Kemba
Melo
Isaiah
Kyle
Millsap
Derozan
Wade
Parker
Damian
Aldridge
KAT
Cousins

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:58 PM
Here are 30 and they are more as well

Davis
Harden
Curry
Durant
Kawhi
Gasol
Westbrook
Hayward
Deandre
Blake
CP3
Lebron
Love
Giannis
Kyrie
Jimmy
George
Wall
Kemba
Melo
Isaiah
Kyle
Millsap
Derozan
Wade
Parker
Damian
Aldridge
KAT
Cousins

No no no no no no no. Only guy questionable is Blake and that's when he's healthy. I can see you're reaching with Wade there.. And Parker..? As in Tony Parker or Jabari? What? There are some guys I would have bolded but they fit their team so I won't take em out. Draymond is definitely a top 10-15 player. Klay is easily a top 20 player. To say he isn't is sad. And KD+Curry are literally anywhere from 2-5...

LOb0
05-24-2017, 12:02 AM
Literally last time I'm ever responding to you just because you act like a child.

1) Go play your hypothetical scenarios all you want. Should've, would've, could've. Keep using them.
2) Warriors got much better. Curry got much better - having an offensive season that ranks top five ever. Draymond improved.

I'm going to just put you on ignore for sanity sake. You literally can't help yourself so I'm not going to spend 10+ minutes every time dealing with someone who loves to use the word "suck." I guess you do it often.

And this "narrative" I'm trying to push isn't MY narrative. It's literally most of the NBA fanbase. I would entertain you with every article by media members but you're someone who clearly lacks any facts.


So you're saying that the Warriors would have made the finals anyway without Klay making 11 threes? Oh you'll duck the hell out of that question. or "It's a hypothetical" so you can have an excuse to not answer it.

Curry was not good in the playoffs, which is one of the clear reasons I picked the Cavs to win. Did you miss the entire playoffs with Curry struggling?

Your arguments are so laughably bad. You just want to be stubborn and be ignorant with your opinions. It's fine however. You know how much sense I'm making and in your head you're aware of that.

lol you're great man.

Quinnsanity
05-24-2017, 12:18 AM
I already have LeBron ahead of Jordan. I totally understand those who don't, it's a totally reasonable debate.

If LeBron beats these Warriors, that closes the debate to me.

Jeffy25
05-24-2017, 12:21 AM
Cavs are defending champions they shouldn't lose anyway is how I see it. Hell Jordan didn't lose once he won the title and was the defending champion.

And he never faced a team anywhere close to as good as the Warriors. Nowhere close in fact.


Pretend the 80's Lakers added Bird. That's what you have in the current Warriors.

JordansBulls
05-24-2017, 12:36 AM
And he never faced a team anywhere close to as good as the Warriors. Nowhere close in fact.


Pretend the 80's Lakers added Bird. That's what you have in the current Warriors.
The Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Sonics and Jazz all would beat the Warriors because all you need to beat the Warriors is to be physical and some dominant big. Dray can feast now because he doesn't play any dominant bigs at PF nor C.

Jeffy25
05-24-2017, 12:43 AM
FIBA to. Love is much better than Dray and Klay. Lebron marginalizes his teammates. We have seen on two separate occasions where he joined guys in there primes and formed superteams and they start to suck with him around.

Wade and Bosh were #2 and #4 in the league in PER and then Love was a 26 and 14 player with Kyrie the allstar game mvp winner. All of which were studs. But once they play with Lebron they start to suck quick.

lol, I assume you are joking with this. You just claimed a LeBron choke from 2004 when he played 5 minutes a game as AI shot them out if it.

And if you are going to stack the teammates, at least use the same statistical values, not PER for one, and then points and boards in the other. Jordan's teammates scoring changed before and after they left him too, when a star carries a high usage, that tends to happen. Jordan retires, and Kukoc goes from scoring 13 a game to 18 a game. That's going to happen.

Be consistent with the hate at least.

Also, ASG MVP? That's an accolade that means he was great? Kyrie was a top pick putting up over 20 a game, it's not ignored. But just like you pointed out Love's depletion in his numbers, you didn't notice that Kyrie is now scoring 25 a game.

If your goal is to convince people that LeBron can never hold Jordan's jock strap, it would help if you remained consistent with the lines in which you debate, and didn't jump around to wherever it most convenients your arguments.

Jeffy25
05-24-2017, 12:54 AM
The Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Sonics and Jazz all would beat the Warriors because all you need to beat the Warriors is to be physical and some dominant big. Dray can feast now because he doesn't play any dominant bigs at PF nor C.

But that won't beat the Warriors because they shoot over 40% on over 30 3's per game. You aren't going to beat that team, no matter how many buckets you score in the paint.

There is a reason they are averaging 116 points per game.


Go ahead and score 2 down low 50% of the time, they will be scoring 3 40% of the time. In 100 possessions, that is 100 points to the Warriors 120.

More-Than-Most
05-24-2017, 01:09 AM
equal or ahead... no ****ing way he is behind if he beats 2 of the best ever teams in back to back years with the performances he has put up

GREATNESS ONE
05-24-2017, 02:25 AM
And if he loses yet another finals, he gets a pass right, because the Warriors are the best team ever assembled?


Lolz

More-Than-Most
05-24-2017, 03:01 AM
And if he loses yet another finals, he gets a pass right, because the Warriors are the best team ever assembled?


Lolz

If he plays great and loses sure... if he plays like the mavs series then no... logic my man.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 04:44 AM
Cemented as #2 all time. Pushing the conversation to be ahead of Jordan.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 04:45 AM
And if he loses yet another finals, he gets a pass right, because the Warriors are the best team ever assembled?


Lolz

Well do you think the Warriors are the best team assembled and do you think he has a great chance to win?

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 04:46 AM
That Warriors team was overrated at that point. I'm glad he won but, you're making it sound like he pulled off this feat that no one else could do, when the Thunder had them beat and Klay needed 11 threes to pull off a win.

I thought they'd win. I knew that team was flawed at that point. If "everyone" was picking GS they weren't paying enough attention.

Yea, because people should looked at that 73-9 Warriors team that just came back from 3-1 and say that that the Cavs had a great chance to win after being down 3-1 themselves.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 04:49 AM
The Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Sonics and Jazz all would beat the Warriors because all you need to beat the Warriors is to be physical and some dominant big. Dray can feast now because he doesn't play any dominant bigs at PF nor C.

That doesn't change the fact the Warriors are better now in their era than the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Sonics and Jazz all were in their era.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 04:51 AM
If LeBron was aggressive as he was in 5,6, and 7. They might of won earlier.

I mean, I picked them to win, and Curry was choking. Its not like that Warriors team that almost lost to the Thunder was unbeatable.

I always find it a little funny it's the biggest critic that always picks the team/person they are criticizing to win, just so they can bash them when they "fail" at their expectation. Like have some integrity and make it believable ffs.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 09:47 AM
Depends on who the best player on their team in the series is (past couple games here in the ECF's it has been Kyrie, for one. Also if and what injuries occur (always a huge wild card), and how the series goes as a whole. You can't just answer this question without knowing how it would happen.

Not a problem I think we will have to worry about though.

there is 0% chance, and I mean 0, that the Cavs win without LeBron being the best player in the series. The sad part is, the Warriors are so stacked, a superhuman effort by James won't be enough. Kyrie, or Love, or both, need to play over their heads. The shooters for Cleveland need to show up. TT has to destroy the boards.

But cmon dude, if LeBron isn't the best player in the series, Cleveland gets blasted. You know this.

LOb0
05-24-2017, 10:38 AM
I always find it a little funny it's the biggest critic that always picks the team/person they are criticizing to win, just so they can bash them when they "fail" at their expectation. Like have some integrity and make it believable ffs.

You watch too much first take. I wanted Bron to beat the Warriors whom I hate. And I listed my reasons why I felt the Warriors could lose.

I also picked the Spurs in 6 in 2013 and the Spurs in 5 in 2014.

But yeah its all due to "bashing Bron"

LOb0
05-24-2017, 10:43 AM
Yea, because people should looked at that 73-9 Warriors team that just came back from 3-1 and say that that the Cavs had a great chance to win after being down 3-1 themselves.

I thought it was over. But I was pissed at LeBron for being passive the 4 games.

lol, please
05-24-2017, 11:01 AM
It's not enough.

It's also impossible, literally. The Cavaliers have zero chance, and it's amusing that fans have been convincing themselves all season long that the Cavaliers can even be compared to the Warriors.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 11:34 AM
I thought it was over. But I was pissed at LeBron for being passive the 4 games.
Yea maybe if he forced shots he wouldnt have made they wouldve had a better chance

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 11:35 AM
You watch too much first take. I wanted Bron to beat the Warriors whom I hate. And I listed my reasons why I felt the Warriors could lose.

I also picked the Spurs in 6 in 2013 and the Spurs in 5 in 2014.

But yeah its all due to "bashing Bron"

No I watched too much of your posts the past few days.

ManRam
05-24-2017, 11:38 AM
Depends on how well he plays. Sans basically 3 halves this post season he's been absurdly good. If he can keep that up and again beat the Warriors, well, that's two absurdly impressive wins...arguably better than any of Jordan's championships. I still think he'll probably always remain behind Jordan, if for no other reason than the legend that Jordan has become. It's almost mythical at this point...not to say it shouldn't be.

But if he goes nuts and beats the Warriors again he's my #2 ever.

I don't think they'll do it though. I think Kyrie, Kevin and Bron could all play their best basketball and still lose in like 6 games. The Warriors are just clicking on all cylinders and are just an absurdly well-crafted team.

valade16
05-24-2017, 05:05 PM
Sorry to break this to you but, basketball is a bit random. Bottom line here, this feat that you think "Only LeBron could have done" Is wrong. Thunder had them beat, and an all time Klay game, breaking the record for playoff 3s saved them. That game would have beat the Cavs as well.

That Warriors team was not the same team that was in the regular season. Cavs were down 3-1 because LeBron wasn't being aggressive. They could have won earlier had he been.

You want to blow Lebron clearly. So you try to sway everything towards him. I get it. I just love to keep pointing out how bias you are..

So now you're going to criticize LeBron for winning the Finals because he didn't win it fast enough for your liking lol? I mean, when you start to bash someone for their wins, you're reaching...

tredigs
05-24-2017, 05:28 PM
there is 0% chance, and I mean 0, that the Cavs win without LeBron being the best player in the series. The sad part is, the Warriors are so stacked, a superhuman effort by James won't be enough. Kyrie, or Love, or both, need to play over their heads. The shooters for Cleveland need to show up. TT has to destroy the boards.

But cmon dude, if LeBron isn't the best player in the series, Cleveland gets blasted. You know this.

I mean, it's certainly tough to envision it happening without LBJ being the best, but it is possible. Let's say KD goes down with injury and Kyrie just has an incredible offensive performance (let's say 35 PPG on 55/45/90... it's possible), while 'Bron and Curry who could be playing solid - just don't quite have their peak levels. If Love is playing at the level he's currently playing, that's one scenario where the Cavs could win. You just never know how this **** will play out.

That said, IF there are no injuries? Yeah, I don't see the Cavs winning unless all three are playing their best basketball (along with poor shooting from at least two of the Splash Bro's + KD), with 'Bron's best clearly being better than Love or Kyrie.


Anyway, I'll stand by needing to see how something plays out before commenting on it.

timz-a-changin
05-24-2017, 06:42 PM
Lebron will never surpass Jordan as the GOAT. Sure the Cavs won last year against the Warriors after being down 3-1, but.... Green was suspended, Curry was injured, Iggy was injured, Bogut was injured. There would have been no way the Cavs win if the suspension and injuries were not there.

Lets say that title was deserved for Lebron, now you need to analyze the competition and style of basketball. Jordan playing in this time period, he would have dominated even more than he did in his prime. Currently, you can breathe on a player and a foul is called. However, Lebron in Jordan's era, would he be so "great"? I think not. Lebron would have to man up and play. Flopping would get him nowhere and in an era where physicality was not only allowed, but was the way to play, Lebron would not have it as easy.

As for competition, the 90's did not have Jordan running to join others to create a dream team. Sure he had Pippen and eventually Rodman, but he never left his city to join others to chase championships. Infact, Jordan left to try baseball, if that did not happen, how many more championships could he have won. There were a lot of great teams in Jordan's era and it was very competitive and physical. Lebron has hid in the weak eastern conference his entire career.

When it is all said and done, not only is Jordan in front of Lebron, so is Kobe. Lebron has always lacked the killer instinct and at one point in his career, he gave up on the Cavs before he went to Miami. He has chased championships and lucked into a few. Thank you Ray Allen.

Jamiecballer
05-24-2017, 09:32 PM
Cavs are defending champions they shouldn't lose anyway is how I see it. Hell Jordan didn't lose once he won the title and was the defending champion.
You've got a real f'd up way of thinking. I am real skeptical you would be this hard headed if your name wasn't Jordans bulls

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

IKnowHoops
05-24-2017, 10:47 PM
GS has two top 20 players just like Cleveland does. Dray nor Klay are even top 30 to me.
Besides that Lebron also lost with 3 of the best 10 players on it as well to a team with only 1 star. Not to mention also lost to a team with it's best player was Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics.

This just proves anyone can be a mod

IKnowHoops
05-24-2017, 10:51 PM
I mean, it's certainly tough to envision it happening without LBJ being the best, but it is possible. Let's say KD goes down with injury and Kyrie just has an incredible offensive performance (let's say 35 PPG on 55/45/90... it's possible), while 'Bron and Curry who could be playing solid - just don't quite have their peak levels. If Love is playing at the level he's currently playing, that's one scenario where the Cavs could win. You just never know how this **** will play out.

That said, IF there are no injuries? Yeah, I don't see the Cavs winning unless all three are playing their best basketball (along with poor shooting from at least two of the Splash Bro's + KD), with 'Bron's best clearly being better than Love or Kyrie.

Anyway, I'll stand by needing to see how something plays out before commenting on it.

Yeah we 100% have to see how it plays out . But him winning while clearly being the best player on the court and putting up some god mode numbers...that's what has to happen I guess. Damn 4 wins never meant so much.

LA_Raiders
05-24-2017, 11:04 PM
No, I think KD will step up and guard LeFlop and vise versa; Leflop won't be able to keep up playing both ends and the rest of the dubs will take advantage of that.

GREATNESS ONE
05-24-2017, 11:12 PM
Well do you think the Warriors are the best team assembled and do you think he has a great chance to win?

He's the defending champ and no I don't think it's the best team assembled, I think there's definitely a handful of team that were better.

Sure, statistics are everything.... but surely generation to generation time changes, the game changes, it moves faster, higher points, more advantages.... the game used to be played with defense and defense used to be nasty. Very rare nowadays.

GREATNESS ONE
05-24-2017, 11:13 PM
No, I think KD will step up and guard LeFlop and vise versa; Leflop won't be able to keep up playing both ends and the rest of the dubs will take advantage of that.

4-2 Dubs.

GREATNESS ONE
05-24-2017, 11:14 PM
This just proves anyone can be a mod

He might've exaggerated a bit but I got where he was coming from..... JB been around for a long time.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 11:29 PM
He's the defending champ and no I don't think it's the best team assembled, I think there's definitely a handful of team that were better.

Sure, statistics are everything.... but surely generation to generation time changes, the game changes, it moves faster, higher points, more advantages.... the game used to be played with defense and defense used to be nasty. Very rare nowadays.

I don't think the defending champs necessarily means he has a great chance to win. The Cavs struggled and needed a miracle to win last time. I think a lot went right for them last time and I think more needs to go right this time for them to win.

GREATNESS ONE
05-24-2017, 11:33 PM
I don't think the defending champs necessarily means he has a great chance to win. The Cavs struggled and needed a miracle to win last time. I think a lot went right for them last time and I think more needs to go right this time for them to win.

"More advantages" we both watched the same game(s) last year but we both didn't see it the same.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 12:26 AM
I don't think the defending champs necessarily means he has a great chance to win. The Cavs struggled and needed a miracle to win last time. I think a lot went right for them last time and I think more needs to go right this time for them to win.

What they needed is Bron to play games 1,2,3,4 like he did 5,6,7. Not a miracle.

europagnpilgrim
05-25-2017, 12:35 AM
Cemented as #2 all time. Pushing the conversation to be ahead of Jordan.

Cemented as your #3/4 is what you meant to say if you have Jordan as number 1-2, Kareem and Wilt say hello

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 01:00 AM
What they needed is Bron to play games 1,2,3,4 like he did 5,6,7. Not a miracle.

So you need him to play at a level that only 1 other person has ever matched (and not like Jordan could just do it whenever he wanted too)?

If you don't think he can match Jordan, you can't expect him to play like he did in games 1-4.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 01:01 AM
Cemented as your #3/4 is what you meant to say if you have Jordan as number 1-2, Kareem and Wilt say hello

If you have Kareem and Wilt ahead of Lebron should he win the title this year, that's cool with me. I rather have Jordan and Lebron as 1-2.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 01:06 AM
So you need him to play at a level that only 1 other person has ever matched (and not like Jordan could just do it whenever he wanted too)?

If you don't think he can match Jordan, you can't expect him to play like he did in games 1-4.

Let me rephrase. He needed to play better in game 1,2 and 4. Which were quite bad.

Like I said before, that Warriors team that went 73-9 already lost 5 games in he playoffs before even getting to the Cavs. They weren't some unbeatable juggernaut at that point.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 01:13 AM
Let me rephrase. He needed to play better in game 1,2 and 4. Which were quite bad.

Like I said before, that Warriors team that went 73-9 already lost 5 games in he playoffs before even getting to the Cavs. They weren't some unbeatable juggernaut at that point.

Doesn't change that they were much more ahead that the Cavs as a team.

You literally just said in the other thread the Warriors would win this year if you replaced Durant with the OP. But now with a little bit of effort, the Cavs should have won last year without having to go down 3-1.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 01:17 AM
Doesn't change that they were much more ahead that the Cavs as a team.

You literally just said in the other thread the Warriors would win this year if you replaced Durant with the OP. But now with a little bit of effort, the Cavs should have won last year without having to go down 3-1.

Yeah I picked the Cavs to beat GS last year. I don't like this Cavs team at all this year. Defense is too suspect. Said it since the middle of the season.

Curry was hurt or choking all playoffs, they needed 11 threes from Klay just to beat OKC. Is it really strange to think that the Cavs would win? I'll never get why people though this was some massive underdog match up last year. Its like everyone missed GS's struggles in the POs.

I loved that he beat GS, but he's getting praise like it was the greatest feat ever when it wasn't, at all. He could have ended sooner had he just played well in 1,2,4. But that's nitpicking since he made up for it in epic fashion.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 01:21 AM
Yeah I picked the Cavs to beat GS last year. I don't like this Cavs team at all this year. Defense is too suspect. Said it since the middle of the season.

Curry was hurt or choking all playoffs, they needed 11 threes from Klay just to beat OKC. Is it really strange to think that the Cavs would win? I'll never get why people though this was some massive underdog match up last year. Its like everyone missed GS's struggles in the POs.

You can't just dismiss coming back from 3-1 as a sign that the Warriors were struggling and leave it at that. As much as the bads showed up in the OKC series, there's both sides of the argument. Coming back from 3-1 also means they had enough fire power to take whatever was thrown at them despite the odds. That's as telling of their abilities than their shortfalls. You look at it as the team that went 3-1, essentially ignoring that they went 3-0 the rest of the way.

So it doesn't change the narrative that the Cavs were heavy underdogs.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 01:26 AM
You can't just dismiss coming back from 3-1 as a sign that the Warriors were struggling and leave it at that. As much as the bads showed up in the OKC series, there's both sides of the argument. Coming back from 3-1 also means they had enough fire power to take whatever was thrown at them despite the odds. That's as telling of their abilities than their shortfalls. You look at it as the team that went 3-1, essentially ignoring that they went 3-0 the rest of the way.

So it doesn't change the narrative that the Cavs were heavy underdogs.

It doesn't change that they were completely wrong either. I seen it.

Durant choked, and Klay had an all time great game. They had the firepower but lets be honest, 11 threes? It took an enormous amount of luck for them to comeback.

Point is, that showed flaws. Curry's play showed flaws. That's why I knew that Cavs team had a great chance of winning that series.

Jeffy25
05-25-2017, 01:58 AM
Lebron will never surpass Jordan as the GOAT. Sure the Cavs won last year against the Warriors after being down 3-1, but.... Green was suspended, Curry was injured, Iggy was injured, Bogut was injured. There would have been no way the Cavs win if the suspension and injuries were not there.

Lets say that title was deserved for Lebron, now you need to analyze the competition and style of basketball. Jordan playing in this time period, he would have dominated even more than he did in his prime. Currently, you can breathe on a player and a foul is called. However, Lebron in Jordan's era, would he be so "great"? I think not. Lebron would have to man up and play. Flopping would get him nowhere and in an era where physicality was not only allowed, but was the way to play, Lebron would not have it as easy.

As for competition, the 90's did not have Jordan running to join others to create a dream team. Sure he had Pippen and eventually Rodman, but he never left his city to join others to chase championships. Infact, Jordan left to try baseball, if that did not happen, how many more championships could he have won. There were a lot of great teams in Jordan's era and it was very competitive and physical. Lebron has hid in the weak eastern conference his entire career.

When it is all said and done, not only is Jordan in front of Lebron, so is Kobe. Lebron has always lacked the killer instinct and at one point in his career, he gave up on the Cavs before he went to Miami. He has chased championships and lucked into a few. Thank you Ray Allen.

I don't know how you didn't get killed for this comment, but there is no way that's true, and outside of free throw shooting there is no statistical or accolade level argument for such a statement.

FlashBolt
05-25-2017, 02:05 AM
"Killer instinct." That's literally the blank statements they make. Brandon Jennings has a killer instinct, too. He's probably better than LeBron. RWB has a killer instinct. Some say above Kobe+Jordan. Any idea why he hasn't won yet? Killer instinct this, killer instinct that. Where was Kobe's killer instinct after Shaq left and pre-Gasol? Hmmm, more like rapist instinct. Hey, if you're still arguing Kobe vs LeBron, throw the rings out. What part of the game was Kobe really better at than LeBron? Killer instinct makes zero sense. These guys are grown men who grew up in the spotlight as 16 year olds. Being a ballhog with a mean mug in your face doesn't mean you have a killer instinct. It means you are a ballhog. I guess if LeBron mean mugs after a game winner, he has a killer instinct but when he passes it for a wide open player, which is what TEAM basketball is about, he's a choker. I don't understand which part of a 5v5 you guys aren't getting.

FOXHOUND
05-25-2017, 02:25 AM
Why do so many people leave out that Kyrie Irving was by far the 2nd best player in last years Finals, clearly out playing the MVP Steph Curry and obliterating Klay's D while wearing him down from having to guard him?

Wit the level that LeBron and Kyrie played at overall, yes including LeBron's slow start where he was not only passive but extremely sloppy (5.8 TO per game in 1-4), and the level that Curry, Klay, Green and Barnes played below their standard, it shouldn't be a mystery to why Cleveland won.

Too many people try to act like that was more of an individual accomplishment than it was. Yes, LeBron was great and deserving of Finals MVP, but so was Kyrie. Thompson's D was also incredible.

Jeffy25
05-25-2017, 02:28 AM
What they needed is Bron to play games 1,2,3,4 like he did 5,6,7. Not a miracle.

lol, your hate is ridiculous

He put up 36/11/10 in those three games

you don't want a miracle, but who has ever done that consistently in the playoffs? .506 shooting, .421 on 3.

You act like that should just be the average for any top level player or something. Nobody, literally nobody does that. Especially not against such an incredible team, hurt or not.

Jordan ever have a 3 game stretch like that, literally ever? Much less facing elimination in the Finals?


You have these expectations with revisionist history that can never be reached by anybody.

FlashBolt
05-25-2017, 02:29 AM
Why do so many people leave out that Kyrie Irving was by far the 2nd best player in last years Finals, clearly out playing the MVP Steph Curry and obliterating Klay's D while wearing him down from having to guard him?

Wit the level that LeBron and Kyrie played at overall, yes including LeBron's slow start where he was not only passive but extremely sloppy (5.8 TO per game in 1-4), and the level that Curry, Klay, Green and Barnes played below their standard, it shouldn't be a mystery to why Cleveland won.

Too many people try to act like that was more of an individual accomplishment than it was. Yes, LeBron was great and deserving of Finals MVP, but so was Kyrie.

No one left it out. But you can't look back at hindsight and tell me that the Cleveland Cavailers were favorites. It was an upset, point blank. What happens in the game happens but at the end of the day, it took the Warriors playing terrible ball and the Cavs playing great ball for the game to be a ONE possession game.. Literally, Cavs had to play their best and Warriors had to play below their best for Cavs to have a chance. It's the same scenario this upcoming series. If LeBron doesn't play like the best player, Cavs have ZERO chance. Durant can play like the 4th best player and Warriors have a chance.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 02:37 AM
lol, your hate is ridiculous

He put up 36/11/10 in those three games

you don't want a miracle, but who has ever done that consistently in the playoffs? .506 shooting, .421 on 3.

You act like that should just be the average for any top level player or something. Nobody, literally nobody does that. Especially not against such an incredible team, hurt or not.

Jordan ever have a 3 game stretch like that, literally ever? Much less facing elimination in the Finals?


You have these expectations with revisionist history that can never be reached by anybody.

I rephrased that. I said he needed to play better. I felt they could have beat that flawed GS team earlier.

Jeffy25
05-25-2017, 02:45 AM
Why do so many people leave out that Kyrie Irving was by far the 2nd best player in last years Finals, clearly out playing the MVP Steph Curry and obliterating Klay's D while wearing him down from having to guard him?

Wit the level that LeBron and Kyrie played at overall, yes including LeBron's slow start where he was not only passive but extremely sloppy (5.8 TO per game in 1-4), and the level that Curry, Klay, Green and Barnes played below their standard, it shouldn't be a mystery to why Cleveland won.

Too many people try to act like that was more of an individual accomplishment than it was. Yes, LeBron was great and deserving of Finals MVP, but so was Kyrie. Thompson's D was also incredible.

I would argue that Draymond was

Jeffy25
05-25-2017, 02:46 AM
I rephrased that. I said he needed to play better. I felt they could have beat that flawed GS team earlier.


So you are penalizing him for not winning fast enough against the team with the most regular season wins ever?

FOXHOUND
05-25-2017, 02:50 AM
No one left it out. But you can't look back at hindsight and tell me that the Cleveland Cavailers were favorites. It was an upset, point blank. What happens in the game happens but at the end of the day, it took the Warriors playing terrible ball and the Cavs playing great ball for the game to be a ONE possession game.. Literally, Cavs had to play their best and Warriors had to play below their best for Cavs to have a chance. It's the same scenario this upcoming series. If LeBron doesn't play like the best player, Cavs have ZERO chance. Durant can play like the 4th best player and Warriors have a chance.

Oh it was definitely an upset, but I agree with LObo that it shouldn't have been looked at being so lopsided going in as it was with the way OKC played them. I know I wasn't looking at it that way.

This upcoming series is different, because yes Durant. I don't agree that he can be their 4th best player though, I think you're selling Cleveland short on that end. Unless Kevin Love gets another concussion, he's going to be a whole lot better than he was last year and is dominating in this Celtics series right now. Kyrie is ready to go and has already proven he can outplay Curry and obliterate Klay's D. GS has no one who can guard Kyrie.

The LeBron vs Durant showdown is going to be vital in this series. Honestly, as boring as this season has been to this point, I'm actually really looking forward to the level of star powered matchups on the way.

LeBron vs Durant
Kyrie vs Curry/being guarded by Klay
Love vs Green
Thompson vs Iggy as defensive wildcards

It should be some exciting basketball.

FOXHOUND
05-25-2017, 02:54 AM
I would argue that Draymond was

:speechless:

You ignoring games 3-6? Green was horrendous for that entire stretch plus his suspension breathed life into Cleveland and sparked the comeback. He had two big games which helped balance out his averages but he really wasn't good, overall. It's also easy to have big games when the other team game plans to literally leave you wide open so they can help on Curry and Klay. Makes those bad games even worse too.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 03:38 AM
So you are penalizing him for not winning fast enough against the team with the most regular season wins ever?

Clearly you didn't read my other posts.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 09:06 AM
It doesn't change that they were completely wrong either. I seen it.

Durant choked, and Klay had an all time great game. They had the firepower but lets be honest, 11 threes? It took an enormous amount of luck for them to comeback.

Point is, that showed flaws. Curry's play showed flaws. That's why I knew that Cavs team had a great chance of winning that series.

No one said they never had flaws. They said they were the heavy favoruites. Those 2 things can co exist and last year was proof.

MarkieMark48
05-25-2017, 09:30 AM
If the Cavs beat the Warriors this year, and Lebron plays like he did (or better) in games 5-7 last year (which he will need to in order for Cleveland to win) I personally still don't think he'd be MJ's equivalent or better. But get ready for the comparisons bc MJ's team never beat a 73-win team in the finals... MJ's team never beat a team with the talent of this GS warriors team.

IMO it would solidify him behind MJ as the SGOAT

Hawkeye15
05-25-2017, 09:53 AM
If the Cavs beat the Warriors this year, and Lebron plays like he did (or better) in games 5-7 last year (which he will need to in order for Cleveland to win) I personally still don't think he'd be MJ's equivalent or better. But get ready for the comparisons bc MJ's team never beat a 73-win team in the finals... MJ's team never beat a team with the talent of this GS warriors team.

IMO it would solidify him behind MJ as the SGOAT

I am using that term

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-25-2017, 09:53 AM
If he wins and plays great in doing so... then yeah he has a legit argument against MJ. He'll never be the pure scorer that MJ was, but he does so many other things well. At the end of the day, winning is what matters and if Lebron plays well and leads his team to a win against this stacked Warriors team... then yeah he's got an argument vs Jordan.

MarkieMark48
05-25-2017, 10:11 AM
I am using that term

:cheers:

mightybosstone
05-25-2017, 10:41 AM
Win or lose, I don't think it ultimately makes that much of a difference to his legacy in my mind. Lebron is No. 2 on my list. He'd be No. 2 if the Cavs beat the Warriors, and he'd be No. 2 if they lose. Now, if the Cavs somehow win this series and Lebron plays like the god he's played at for much of this postseason, would it be a tremendous accomplishment and a major notch on his belt? Absolutely. But I don't think one Finals is enough to move him ahead of MJ. He's going to have to do a lot of other things over the rest of his career to earn that throne.

mrblisterdundee
05-25-2017, 11:31 AM
Yeah context matters. If LeBron plays poorly this could also end the Jordan argument.

How does this one finals end the argument?
Jordan never played a team in the finals as good as Golden State. He won three of his championships between ages 32 and 34, and could have won more if he hadn't retired for a few years. LeBron theoretically still has several years to try and reach Jordan's level, and has shown the ability to adjust his game to remain elite.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 01:37 PM
How does this one finals end the argument?
Jordan never played a team in the finals as good as Golden State. He won three of his championships between ages 32 and 34, and could have won more if he hadn't retired for a few years. LeBron theoretically still has several years to try and reach Jordan's level, and has shown the ability to adjust his game to remain elite.

If LeBron went supernova and beat this Warriors team..im sorry that is one feat that moves him into Jordan discussion talk.

Losing doesn't change his position.

Losing, and playing badly puts him lower. I don't feel LeBron can survive another bad finals and ever surpass Jordan.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 01:38 PM
No one said they never had flaws. They said they were the heavy favoruites. Those 2 things can co exist and last year was proof.

Yeah, I felt they were wrong. And, they ended up being wrong.

mightybosstone
05-25-2017, 01:52 PM
If LeBron went supernova and beat this Warriors team..im sorry that is one feat that moves him into Jordan discussion talk.

Losing doesn't change his position.

Losing, and playing badly puts him lower. I don't feel LeBron can survive another bad finals and ever surpass Jordan.

I think winning would make the Jordan and Lebron as 1A and 1B argument more legitimate, but I don't think you could make a very strong case around him being definitively better than Jordan. And I think losing hurts him at all, unless he is terrible individually in the series. Just like last season, nobody is going to give this Cleveland team a chance in hell. They could lose in 4 or 5, and as long as Lebron plays well, I don't see how the series hurts his legacy.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 01:55 PM
^

Thats because you seem to think the Xavs winning proves they shouldnt have been big underdogs. That means more likely they were underdogs that won, not that they shouldnt be underdogs to begin with.

Lebron had to play on Jordan level the past 3 games and Curry had to choke to win a close series. Its not reasonable to use that as a basis for determining if the Cavs are underdogs or not. You dont make odds who wins a series based on a hypothetical of 2 extremes.

So you saying something and it occurring doesnt make you right if your basis wasnt justified to make such a prediction.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 02:23 PM
^

Thats because you seem to think the Xavs winning proves they shouldnt have been big underdogs. That means more likely they were underdogs that won, not that they shouldnt be underdogs to begin with.

Lebron had to play on Jordan level the past 3 games and Curry had to choke to win a close series. Its not reasonable to use that as a basis for determining if the Cavs are underdogs or not. You dont make odds who wins a series based on a hypothetical of 2 extremes.

So you saying something and it occurring doesnt make you right if your basis wasnt justified to make such a prediction.

I felt they were far more close than anyone gave them credit for. If LeBron was scoring more and had less turnovers they could have won game 1 and 4. He was awful in game 2 as well.

You're saying he needed to go Jordan level to get those last 3 and I'm saying he might not needed to had he played well the first games. Bron plays better and they likely win and prove they were the better team earlier. Just as I thought they were. The Cavs were a better team than the Warriors with Curry struggling in the POs last year.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 02:27 PM
I think winning would make the Jordan and Lebron as 1A and 1B argument more legitimate, but I don't think you could make a very strong case around him being definitively better than Jordan. And I think losing hurts him at all, unless he is terrible individually in the series. Just like last season, nobody is going to give this Cleveland team a chance in hell. They could lose in 4 or 5, and as long as Lebron plays well, I don't see how the series hurts his legacy.

I agree. But the new argument will be that LeBron would have a feat that perhaps not even Jordan could have pulled off, which I don't feel he has at this time.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 02:35 PM
I felt they were far more close than anyone gave them credit for. If LeBron was scoring more and had less turnovers they could have won game 1 and 4. He was awful in game 2 as well.

You're saying he needed to go Jordan level to get those last 3 and I'm saying he might not needed to had he played well the first games. Bron plays better and they likely win and prove they were the better team earlier. Just as I thought they were. The Cavs were a better team than the Warriors with Curry struggling in the POs last year.

Thats still after the fact. You are determmined to be favourites or underdogs before the series begins. Coming in, you dont just say Curry is going tohave a bad game, Draymond gets suspended, etc and make your prediction based on that.

Otherwise i would have told you Mavs in 2011 should be even/favourites because of the possibility Lebron chokes or Deshawn stevenson, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Barea, etc plays great.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 02:40 PM
Thats still after the fact. You are determmined to be favourites or underdogs before the series begins. Coming in, you dont just say Curry is going tohave a bad game, Draymond gets suspended, etc and make your prediction based on that.

Otherwise i would have told you Mavs in 2011 should be even/favourites because of the possibility Lebron chokes or Deshawn stevenson, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Barea, etc plays great.

Before the series began, the Warriors came off almost losing to OKC, Curry had already been struggling, they already lost 5 PO games when they lost 9 the entire regular season.

Now had none of that happened before that? Sure I'd of picked GS, but we all saw them struggling already, now they're going up against the best player in the NBA.

These are the reasons that led to me picking the Cavs. Not to mention Cavs were the one team capable of matching them in shooting and punishing them on the boards.

I don't understand your argument of them being big underdogs at that point. In retrospect it should be somewhat obvious to you.

tbbyolumbatobby
05-25-2017, 03:58 PM
It depends on how many wins the Warriors or the Cavaliers will get.

Sent from my LG-K330 using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
05-25-2017, 04:04 PM
Why are you arguing with Nostradamus? I wonder if he can tell us which stock will be the best investment in the next decade. The guy still doesn't get that the Warriors were overwhelming favorites by near every individual. The odds Cavs were supposed to win were much lower. It doesn't take a genius to see that Warriors should have won it. But they didn't. They made mistakes and Cavs capitalized. That's not LeBron's fault. It came down to a game 7 and Cavs just made the final shot. It literally took Warriors underperforming and LeBron+Kyrie playing really well to close it out. If Warriors played 100%, Cavs stand zero chance.

Heediot
05-25-2017, 05:02 PM
I would put him GOAT, at that point, only because Jordan doesn't have a chance to top him in facing such an a opponent.

It also depends on how he performs, but they are not winning it unless he at minimum equates last year's performance.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 05:17 PM
Why are you arguing with Nostradamus? I wonder if he can tell us which stock will be the best investment in the next decade. The guy still doesn't get that the Warriors were overwhelming favorites by near every individual. The odds Cavs were supposed to win were much lower. It doesn't take a genius to see that Warriors should have won it. But they didn't. They made mistakes and Cavs capitalized. That's not LeBron's fault. It came down to a game 7 and Cavs just made the final shot. It literally took Warriors underperforming and LeBron+Kyrie playing really well to close it out. If Warriors played 100%, Cavs stand zero chance.

Its not my fault people didn't notice the huge flashing signals that the Warriors were struggling in the POs.

Heediot
05-25-2017, 05:34 PM
Its not my fault people didn't notice the huge flashing signals that the Warriors were struggling in the POs.

Last year's Warrior's were over-rated, IMO. They were still championship caliber but they weren't as unbeatable as most thought.

Bostonjorge
05-25-2017, 05:42 PM
Not Kobe close but in good shape to get closer.

Chronz
05-25-2017, 06:18 PM
I feel like Im fighting a war I will never win by holding onto the notion that both Shaq and Wilt deserve to be ahead of Bron and that Duncan has a strong argument himself. If he somehow wins this year, which I dont think is possible given he prolly shouldn't have won last year and now KD sold his soul, I mean Bron has been on some mega stretches of play/production/team value the last few years, you gotta think he slows down eventually just like all other prior greats this late in the game. The ONLY hope is that K-Love sacks up and Bron/Kyrie match the intensity from last year, Bron cant take so long to adapt to how Iggy and co were stripping him on drives, Kyrie cant take so long to actually start giving a **** defensively. Thats their only hope and even then they may lose soundly.

Chronz
05-25-2017, 06:39 PM
Not Kobe close but in good shape to get closer.

The guy who engineered his way onto a big market before ever stepping foot on a College court much less the NBA, who was blessed with soooo much talent to start a career and hes only 2 rings(-1FMVP) ahead, this despite his team being so elite that they proved capable of winning an actual Finals game with him suiting up for a solid role players showing of 11 minutes of work, That guy? Why? His own coach wanted him off the team, theres an argument to be made if Kobe doesn't get hurt and sees his team play better without him, there is no 3-peat. Kobe was the epitome of selfish-AF back then. Remember when he refused to listen to the coaching staff in his embarrassing 04 showing, thats worse than anything Bron ever failed to do.



What happened after that he got his wish of having his own team and being a do it all player, oh he has his worst individual year and leads his team on like a 2-19 slide to close the season, fails to make the playoffs and demands a trade within 2 more individually prolific seasons of .500 ball. Consider that Bron as a 2nd year man had a FAR superior season and got more out of his less arguably less talented teammates.

Kobe was literally like the 7th best perimeter player that year, not since his rookie year have I ever seen Bron play at such a low level for an entire season. Kobe was a great scorer, he didn't become a greatest player until later, when he grew into his role as a leader. I used to argue Kobe being better than Bron before Bron started his run of dominance, but thats because he was at the younger phase of his career. Every step of the way, Bron has been better.


So what are we left with? Kobe has played worse in the Finals, has never played as great in the Finals and was never the driving force at defeating a history setting team to reach the top of the mountain. Kobe was Bron good during his short lived apex but we're talking about a cyborg here...

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 07:36 PM
Before the series began, the Warriors came off almost losing to OKC, Curry had already been struggling, they already lost 5 PO games when they lost 9 the entire regular season.

Now had none of that happened before that? Sure I'd of picked GS, but we all saw them struggling already, now they're going up against the best player in the NBA.

These are the reasons that led to me picking the Cavs. Not to mention Cavs were the one team capable of matching them in shooting and punishing them on the boards.

I don't understand your argument of them being big underdogs at that point. In retrospect it should be somewhat obvious to you.

Can I get next weeks lottery numbers then?

Because Curry was coming off 3 straight 30 point games that game 5-7 and averaged around 30 points overall in the the WCF and the 2nd round. Klay averaged overall around 27 PPG in the WCF and 2nd round. So to suggest that everyone should have seen Curry's and Klay's PPG dropping by like 8 PPG or GSW's 3FG% would drop by over 30% compared to the previous 2 rounds is absurd.

I mean if you thought it was a certain that would happen, I suppose even people with illogical thoughts can get things right every once in a while.

Dade County
05-25-2017, 07:37 PM
Lbj needs to win 6 (tie Jordan) or more titles as the number 1 option. When & if he can accomplish this, then I think most people can just accept that Lbj would be over all better.

Jordan only went to 6 Final's, Lbj already has been to 7, and that number will go to 8 very soon. So if Lbj can tie or surpass Jordan ring total; this means to me that 90% of GM's would pick Lbj over Jordan because their franchise will be in the Final's overall more times.

But as of right now, it's still clear cut that Jordan was the better offensive player and the more competitive player; winning at all cost. Not wasting opportunities and coming up small time after time, also never giving other teams titles.

Lbj is the better over all player right now though.

Chronz
05-25-2017, 07:45 PM
Can I get next weeks lottery numbers then?

Because Curry was coming off 3 straight 30 point games that game 5-7 and averaged around 30 points overall in the the WCF and the 2nd round. Klay averaged overall around 27 PPG in the WCF and 2nd round. So to suggest that everyone should have seen Curry's and Klay's PPG dropping by like 8 PPG or GSW's 3FG% would drop by over 30% compared to the previous 2 rounds is absurd.

I mean if you thought it was a certain that would happen, I suppose even people with illogical thoughts can get things right every once in a while.

My girl placed 80 (I was suppose to put 20 but decided to buy weed instead) on the series and put down a cool 200 for G7. We've been coasting on those earnings this gambling season and its all because my girl thought Bron was "driven" for Cleveland and that GS was getting too cocky.

She was right but she dont know jack **** about basketball, can read body language like a mo****er tho.

Chronz
05-25-2017, 07:50 PM
Lbj needs to win 6 (tie Jordan) or more titles as the number 1 option. When & if he can accomplish this, then I think most people can just accept that Lbj would be over all better.
Prolly but why should that be the barometer, plz tell me its not as simple as it just being about the ringz. If thats the case show me your top 20 list because it better be filled with guys with the most championships as the #1 option all in order. Thats gon lead you down a dark path of ignorance dude.


Jordan only went to 6 Final's, Lbj already has been to 7, and that number will go to 8 very soon. So if Lbj can tie or surpass Jordan ring total; this means to me that 90% of GM's would pick Lbj over Jordan because their franchise will be in the Final's overall more times.

I highly doubt GM's think a single player is entirely responsible for Finals births, Im pretty sure they would take whichever player they felt were superior because that would give them the best chance to win. Longevity is the only argument that can change this and Bron is going to crush MJ in that regard whether he ever wins another title or not.



But as of right now, it's still clear cut that Jordan was the better offensive player and the more competitive player; winning at all cost. Not wasting opportunities and coming up small time after time, also never giving other teams titles.

Agreed, he was the better player, I only wonder what playing in the no-zone era would have allowed Bron to do. I've seen zones make MJ look mortal but he still won and closed **** out in ways that Bron hasn't consistently in his youth

LOb0
05-25-2017, 07:54 PM
Can I get next weeks lottery numbers then?

Because Curry was coming off 3 straight 30 point games that game 5-7 and averaged around 30 points overall in the the WCF and the 2nd round. Klay averaged overall around 27 PPG in the WCF and 2nd round. So to suggest that everyone should have seen Curry's and Klay's PPG dropping by like 8 PPG or GSW's 3FG% would drop by over 30% compared to the previous 2 rounds is absurd.

I mean if you thought it was a certain that would happen, I suppose even people with illogical thoughts can get things right every once in a while.

lol Illogical? Curry who had been hurt and up an down all playoffs, GS who needed a miracle game from Klay just to beat OKC, against the best player in the league, a team capable of matching them in shooting, and killing them on the boards. And you find this to be illogical?

If you want to go with "Forseen" Should we have foreseen Bron averaging over 5 turnovers a game in the first 4 games? No. You make the best judgement you can at the time. Curry wasn't reliable at that point. And the Cavs matched up extremely well with them.

You come off as some one angry they weren't smart enough to see it. And I'm not giving you my lotto numbers toolbag.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 08:05 PM
lol Illogical? Curry who had been hurt and up an down all playoffs, GS who needed a miracle game from Klay just to beat OKC, against the best player in the league, a team capable of matching them in shooting, and killing them on the boards. And you find this to be illogical?

You come off as some one angry they weren't smart enough to see it.

So great. you looked at the bad and ignored the opposite side of the argument. I'm saying the positives clearly outweighed the negatives.

You say people should have seen it because Curry was hurt. Yet you ignore the fact that Curry was already hurt and played great in OKC/POR. If Curry was hurt and played great the 2nd and WCF, why would anyone suddenly predict coming into the series that only then would be drastically affected by his injury and his PPG would drop 8 PPG compared to the 2 prior seasons?

If Klay could suddenly explode like that while playing against adversity and averaged like 27 PPG the previous 2 series, then why would anyone believe coming into the finals that he would suddenly become a ghost of what he was the 2 prior rounds and only average under 20 PPG?

Your narrative doesn't add up here. You couldn't answer those 2 questions without being truthful to yourself.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 08:10 PM
If you want to go with "Forseen" Should we have foreseen Bron averaging over 5 turnovers a game in the first 4 games? No. You make the best judgement you can at the time. Curry wasn't reliable at that point. And the Cavs matched up extremely well with them.

You come off as some one angry they weren't smart enough to see it. And I'm not giving you my lotto numbers toolbag.
Then I can't see why you have a problem with me calling it an illogical argument.

You say you make the best decision you can at that time. At that time, Curry was averaging nearly 30 PPG the past 2 series despite being injured. Now you are telling me based on that information, your best judgment was that his injury would cause him to drop to only averaging 22 PPG?

Your best judgment is that Klay would drop to under 20PPG given the fact you said you just saw him go for 41 in the toughest of situations and averaged 27 the prior 2 series?

You're lying to yourself if you think that's the best conclusion you can come up with given that situation.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 08:19 PM
So great. you looked at the bad and ignored the opposite argument. I'm saying the positives clearly outweighed the negatives.

You say people should have seen it because Curry was hurt. Yet you ignore the fact that Curry was already hurt and played great in OKC/POR. If Curry was hurt and played great the 2nd and WCF, why would anyone suddenly predict coming into the series that only then would be drastically affected by his injury and his PPG would drop 8 PPG compared to the 2 prior seasons?

If Klay could suddenly explode like that while playing against adversity and averaged like 27 PPG the previous 2 series, then why would anyone believe coming into the finals that he would suddenly become a ghost of what he was the 2 prior rounds and only average under 20 PPG.

Your narrative doesn't add up here. You couldn't answer those 2 questions without being truthful to yourself.


Did you watch the first 4 games of the OKC series? They weren't that good. They should have lost game 6.

You keep bringing up that we had no reason to expect that Curry and Klay would shoot poorly, well I didn't expect Bron to be a passive turnover machine in 3 of the first 4. Lets also not forget there's some evidence of Curry not lighting it up come finals time the year before. I sure didn't forget that either.

I felt like Bron would play well, Curry would have some off games, they could keep up with the shooting and had an advantage with the rebounding. I also felt GS might have been a bit exhausted from the 73 wins chase.

I'm not saying I was like 100% sure, but there's logic that these teams were closer than most thought. I feel like I've explained that.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 08:20 PM
Then I can't see why you have a problem with me calling it an illogical argument.

You say you make the best decision you can at that time. At that time, Curry was averaging nearly 30 PPG the past 2 series despite being injured. Now you are telling me based on that information, your best judgment was that his injury would cause him to drop to only averaging 22 PPG?

Your best judgment is that Klay would drop to under 20PPG given the fact you said you just saw him go for 41 in the toughest of situations and averaged 27 the prior 2 series?

You're lying to yourself if you think that's the best conclusion you can come up with given that situation.

If you want to go by raw numbers rather than how he was actually looking, and everyone was questioning him during the OKC series be my guest. There was clearly something off about him from his regular season self.

I thought Lebron would play better and they'd match the shooting and get boards Where did I say Klay would be worse?

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 08:27 PM
Did you watch the first 4 games of the OKC series? They weren't that good. They should have lost game 6.

You keep bringing up that we had no reason to expect that Curry and Klay would shoot poorly, well I didn't expect Bron to be a passive turnover machine in 3 of the first 4. Lets also not forget there's some evidence of Curry not lighting it up come finals time the year before. I sure didn't forget that either.

I felt like Bron would play well, Curry would have some off games, they could keep up with the shooting and had an advantage with the rebounding. I also felt GS might have been a bit exhausted from the 73 wins chase.

I'm not saying I was like 100% sure, but there's logic that these teams were closer than most thought. I feel like I've explained that.

Then there's a hell of a difference between going out on a limb and picking out 1 unlikely alternative out of the different scenarios possible and saying it should have been expected. Because the scenario that both Curry and Klay would have a rapid and steep decline definitely wasn't something most people should have expected over the 2 to 3 dozen other scenarios that were more likely.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 08:31 PM
Then there's a hell of a difference between going out on a limb and picking out 1 unlikely alternative out of the different scenarios possible and saying it should have been expected. Because the scenario that both Curry and Klay would have a rapid and steep decline definitely wasn't something most people should have expected over the 2 to 3 dozen other scenarios that were more likely.

I totally thought Curry was prone to having off games at that point. Klay wasn't in my head. I liked the match ups. Thompson in the paint, Bron plays well, they had shooting.

Its like everyone looked at 73-9 and said unbeatable. They just almost lost, Curry never looked right to me since he hurt his knee.

Would I have bet money on that series? Hell no, but that's because I thought they were very close. I mean Bron won 2 games in the finals with a D-league team the year before with a broken jump shot. This isn't some amazing prediction I made.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 08:38 PM
If you want to go by raw numbers rather than how he was actually looking, and everyone was questioning him during the OKC series be my guest. There was clearly something off about him from his regular season self.

I thought Lebron would play better and they'd match the shooting and get boards Where did I say Klay would be worse?

So you went and said Curry would choke and based on a slight decline in the playoffs that wasn't proven on whether it was attributed to injury or level of competition? No one is going to put much stock in something like that even if they are aware of the possibility.

You didn't say it but if you didn't think he would choke, then you have to compensate for it somewhere. If you predicted Curry would choke and Lebron would play better, then you would have needed to expect LEbron to average like 45 points or for Curry to average like 15 points. Because in order for the Cavs to have won, Lebron needed to play better, Curry needed to choke AND Klay had to play bad (with Draymond suspended). So can't exactly go around saying "I was right and everyone should have seen it", when you were missing like half of the equation.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 08:39 PM
I totally thought Curry was prone to having off games at that point. Klay wasn't in my head. I liked the match ups. Thompson in the paint, Bron plays well, they had shooting.

Its like everyone looked at 73-9 and said unbeatable. They just almost lost, Curry never looked right to me since he hurt his knee.

Would I have bet money on that series? Hell no, but that's because I thought they were very close. I mean Bron won 2 games in the finals with a D-league team the year before with a broken jump shot. This isn't some amazing prediction I made.

Well like I said, there's a big difference between going out of a limb (based on your hypotheticals that jsut so happened to favour the Cavs) and suggesting it was something people should have expected. I could tell you if Lebron plays well, Curry chokes again, Draymond is injured and Durant shoots bad that the Cavs have a great chance to win.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 08:50 PM
Well like I said, there's a big difference between going out of a limb (based on your hypotheticals that jsut so happened to favour the Cavs) and suggesting it was something people should have expected. I could tell you if Lebron plays well, Curry chokes again, Draymond is injured and Durant shoots bad that the Cavs have a great chance to win.


We have zero reason to think that will happen. I at least seen something wrong with Curry before hand and he showed signs of being off.

It's not hypothetical to think a hurt Curry might be off in the biggest series of the season.

Also the Cavs D is so bad this year Im not sure I'd pick them anyway.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 08:58 PM
So you went and said Curry would choke and based on a slight decline in the playoffs that wasn't proven on whether it was attributed to injury or level of competition? No one is going to put much stock in something like that even if they are aware of the possibility.

You didn't say it but if you didn't think he would choke, then you have to compensate for it somewhere. If you predicted Curry would choke and Lebron would play better, then you would have needed to expect LEbron to average like 45 points or for Curry to average like 15 points. Because in order for the Cavs to have won, Lebron needed to play better, Curry needed to choke AND Klay had to play bad (with Draymond suspended). So can't exactly go around saying "I was right and everyone should have seen it", when you were missing like half of the equation.

Why did it have to play out that way? No one can perfectly basketball. If you hadn't noticed it's somewhat random. Kyrie could go off, they had an advantage on the boards, Curry was hurt. LeBron could get hot.

You're trying to make it two players. It was layers of different things. Did anyone predict Iggy would win the finals MVP the year before?

This comes back to my original point of, these teams were more evenly matched then you, and most gave credit for.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 09:47 PM
Why did it have to play out that way? No one can perfectly basketball. If you hadn't noticed it's somewhat random. Kyrie could go off, they had an advantage on the boards, Curry was hurt. LeBron could get hot.

You're trying to make it two players. It was layers of different things. Did anyone predict Iggy would win the finals MVP the year before?

This comes back to my original point of, these teams were more evenly matched then you, and most gave credit for.

Well it's random but the hypothetical you made were clearly leaning towards one direction to make it even. You had to focus more on GSW negatives and more on Cavs positives to say it was close. And you focused on those things based on reasons that you needed to reach on.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 10:02 PM
Well it's random but the hypothetical you made were clearly leaning towards one direction to make it even. You had to focus more on GSW negatives and more on Cavs positives to say it was close. And you focused on those things based on reasons that you needed to reach on.

Perhaps slightly. But I wasn't exactly way off. I felt more off when they were down 3-1 and Bron was playing like *****.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 10:15 PM
I think you focused too much on the Warriors' negatives to say slightly, especially when for most of the season, they showed lesser negatives than the Cavs.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 10:21 PM
I think you focused too much on the Warriors' negatives to say slightly, especially when for most of the season, they showed lesser negatives than the Cavs.


I felt they got it together enough and the Warriors were slipping a bit. I didn't know for sure the Cavs would win but I was pretty sure it would be close.

Jeffy25
05-26-2017, 02:57 AM
If LeBron went supernova and beat this Warriors team..im sorry that is one feat that moves him into Jordan discussion talk.

Losing doesn't change his position.

Losing, and playing badly puts him lower. I don't feel LeBron can survive another bad finals and ever surpass Jordan.

You have to be more consistent here.


First of all, Jordan's first year in the Finals was his age 27 season, which for Bron was the same year he won his first title. At the age 22 he got swept by the Spurs (as was expected). Kind of hard to blame him for that considering that was the same age that Jordan broke his leg. The mere fact that at 22 he carried a crap Cavs team to the Finals was very impressive. In fact, at that age, he carried the Cavs to 25.8/8/8 per game en route to the Finals....again, at 22!

But we should somehow accord this into his Finals career numbers when Jordan was several years away from even making his first appearance?

Then his second time in the Finals was at his age 26, when he was embarrassed by Dallas. He still posted 26/9/5.5 en route to those Finals.

That's the same year that Jordan got physically beat up by the 'Jordan Rules'. He still didn't have a Finals appearance, but Bron already had two, but was considered by his haters as 0-2. If only he had lost sooner in the playoffs, right? Then you couldn't use his successes against him.

Since being the age of Jordan, during each of their first year getting a title (age 27), here are their numbers in the Finals
Jordan - 33.6 PPG, 4.6 TRB, 6.0 APG, 1.8 SPG, .66 BPG, .481 FG%, .367 3% = 12.5 FG on 26.0 FGA, 1.2 3's on 3.3 attempts
Bron - 29.5 PPG, 10.8 TRB, 7.4 APG, 2 SPG, 1 BPG, .464 FG%, .360 3% = 11 FG on 23.7 FGA, 1.9 3's on 5.1 3 attempts

They each have 3 titles, Jordan missed a playoff round (you can argue that he was rusty, but he played pretty well against the Magic in that series putting up pretty much his average playoff numbers.


You have to remember how young Bron is and how many more years he will be playing at a high level. If Jordan can 3 peat from age 32-34, it's not impossible to think Bron can't find more Finals MVP's in his future. Especially with the way he has been playing in the playoffs this year and how he closed out the Finals last year. It's not like he's playing poorly or something or showing an obvious decline.

He is going to his 7th straight Finals.....and has obviously been not only the best player on his teams, but in the league while doing so.

Bostonjorge
05-26-2017, 04:19 AM
The guy who engineered his way onto a big market before ever stepping foot on a College court much less the NBA, who was blessed with soooo much talent to start a career and hes only 2 rings(-1FMVP) ahead, this despite his team being so elite that they proved capable of winning an actual Finals game with him suiting up for a solid role players showing of 11 minutes of work, That guy? Why? His own coach wanted him off the team, theres an argument to be made if Kobe doesn't get hurt and sees his team play better without him, there is no 3-peat. Kobe was the epitome of selfish-AF back then. Remember when he refused to listen to the coaching staff in his embarrassing 04 showing, thats worse than anything Bron ever failed to do.



What happened after that he got his wish of having his own team and being a do it all player, oh he has his worst individual year and leads his team on like a 2-19 slide to close the season, fails to make the playoffs and demands a trade within 2 more individually prolific seasons of .500 ball. Consider that Bron as a 2nd year man had a FAR superior season and got more out of his less arguably less talented teammates.

Kobe was literally like the 7th best perimeter player that year, not since his rookie year have I ever seen Bron play at such a low level for an entire season. Kobe was a great scorer, he didn't become a greatest player until later, when he grew into his role as a leader. I used to argue Kobe being better than Bron before Bron started his run of dominance, but thats because he was at the younger phase of his career. Every step of the way, Bron has been better.


So what are we left with? Kobe has played worse in the Finals, has never played as great in the Finals and was never the driving force at defeating a history setting team to reach the top of the mountain. Kobe was Bron good during his short lived apex but we're talking about a cyborg here...

In 04 Kobe was the best player in the NBA. That was the same year of his rape case and Kobe's best game came on days he also had court. In the west playoffs Kobe led the lakers in scoring and assist in every round. Kobe especially played special when he took down the defending champs(Spurs) who where led by the defending league MVP(Duncan). That Laker team led by Kobe beats Detroit in 5.

That's not what we got. We got Shaq taking back the keys after Kobe drove it all way beating the strongest teams along the way. Shaq and Kobe won and got a three peat. Kobe and Shaq would of won another three peat. Kobe was not having any other way. Shaq(because of weight) could not just dominate like he would against every other lakers finals match ups up until then. Shaq couldn't just average 35+ points again and 17+ rebounds a game again. This Shaq actually got nothing even close to that. Detroit didn't even have to double team him any more and made him play defense. He was not Superman but a over weight Shaq. Shaq was still great and if playing off of Kobe a over weight Shaq was enough for Kobe to win 3 more rings and beat down Detroit like he did the round earlier against a better Spurs team. Shaq and Kobe relationship fallout is what lost them that series not Kobe.

The Choke Job by Lebron is the poster for a epic choke. Not Kobe or anyone form the top 20 has ever fell off that far from a series let alone a finals. Lebron left Cleveland and it was wrongfully justified by saying it's the only way anyone could win. Not even Jordan could win without another all stars and all the coward stuff James was justifying at the time. Then Dallas not only embarrassed James but Dirk did what Jordan couldn't even do and what turned James into a coward. Win a title without another all star. To create a super team and lose to a bunch of journey men led by a single all star. Nothing will ever top that. It even made a name for itself. Like Flu game we know it's Jordan and finals choke job we know it's James.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 11:12 AM
In 04 Kobe was the best player in the NBA. That was the same year of his rape case and Kobe's best game came on days he also had court. In the west playoffs Kobe led the lakers in scoring and assist in every round. Kobe especially played special when he took down the defending champs(Spurs) who where led by the defending league MVP(Duncan). That Laker team led by Kobe beats Detroit in 5.

That's not what we got. We got Shaq taking back the keys after Kobe drove it all way beating the strongest teams along the way. Shaq and Kobe won and got a three peat. Kobe and Shaq would of won another three peat. Kobe was not having any other way. Shaq(because of weight) could not just dominate like he would against every other lakers finals match ups up until then. Shaq couldn't just average 35+ points again and 17+ rebounds a game again. This Shaq actually got nothing even close to that. Detroit didn't even have to double team him any more and made him play defense. He was not Superman but a over weight Shaq. Shaq was still great and if playing off of Kobe a over weight Shaq was enough for Kobe to win 3 more rings and beat down Detroit like he did the round earlier against a better Spurs team. Shaq and Kobe relationship fallout is what lost them that series not Kobe.

The Choke Job by Lebron is the poster for a epic choke. Not Kobe or anyone form the top 20 has ever fell off that far from a series let alone a finals. Lebron left Cleveland and it was wrongfully justified by saying it's the only way anyone could win. Not even Jordan could win without another all stars and all the coward stuff James was justifying at the time. Then Dallas not only embarrassed James but Dirk did what Jordan couldn't even do and what turned James into a coward. Win a title without another all star. To create a super team and lose to a bunch of journey men led by a single all star. Nothing will ever top that. It even made a name for itself. Like Flu game we know it's Jordan and finals choke job we know it's James.

Nope.

In fact, that has always been my criticism of Kobe fans. You can't show a single year where he was the best in the game, without a very valid argument for another player or more.

In 2003-04', KG was the best in the game. Duncan was better that year too. Kobe and Dirk were probably next.

mightybosstone
05-26-2017, 12:00 PM
Nope.

In fact, that has always been my criticism of Kobe fans. You can't show a single year where he was the best in the game, without a very valid argument for another player or more.

In 2003-04', KG was the best in the game. Duncan was better that year too. Kobe and Dirk were probably next.

Yeah, this has always been an argument for me as well. Kobe was consistently excellent and was a top 5 caliber player pretty much year in and year out for more than a decade. But he was never the best player in the league in a given season, and I don't think he even deserved the one MVP he won, much less the award in any other year.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 12:20 PM
Yeah, this has always been an argument for me as well. Kobe was consistently excellent and was a top 5 caliber player pretty much year in and year out for more than a decade. But he was never the best player in the league in a given season, and I don't think he even deserved the one MVP he won, much less the award in any other year.

It's almost as if Kobe fans feel like it's a bash to say the guy was top 5 forever, and had a 12 year prime, and his ranking comes more from longevity than it does from peak.

Who cares how you get to being ranked top 10-12 ever. Saying a guy like LeBron had multiple seasons individually better isn't a slight to Kobe. It's just a reality, and doesn't change the fact Kobe is one of the best players the game has seen. There are just better.

Bostonjorge
05-26-2017, 04:59 PM
Nope.

In fact, that has always been my criticism of Kobe fans. You can't show a single year where he was the best in the game, without a very valid argument for another player or more.

In 2003-04', KG was the best in the game. Duncan was better that year too. Kobe and Dirk were probably next.

It's a situation like last year. Clearly Curry was the best player and MVP but James game was stronger in the end. Kobe took down both KG and Duncan because Kobe game was stronger in the end. 04-10 Kobe could outplay any player and that was his era.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 05:07 PM
It's a situation like last year. Clearly Curry was the best player and MVP but James game was stronger in the end. Kobe took down both KG and Duncan because Kobe game was stronger in the end. 04-10 Kobe could outplay any player and that was his era.

well, you clearly don't understand numbers, and I don't believe your eyes. I guess that's all I have to say about that

nastynice
05-26-2017, 08:44 PM
well, you clearly don't understand numbers, and I don't believe your eyes. I guess that's all I have to say about that

I agree with Jorge, if we were to consider shaq diesel the gen before and lebron the gen after, and Kobe plus everyone mentioned (as being better than Colby in a given year) as generation X (spoken with a project dialect), then "Kobe the slight chucker" was the best player of his generation, with consideration to Tim "snooze fest" Duncan. Those two clear head and shoulders above everyone else

Chronz
05-26-2017, 10:04 PM
In 04 Kobe was the best player in the NBA.
Kobe was better in 2003 and he wasn't even a top-4 player then, so no.


That was the same year of his rape case
It was also the year he lost a **** ton of weight, some of it due to surgery but it was also the conscious decision he made to play at a lighter weight after he wore down the year prior, when he was at a robust 220-225. I still remember the look my friend had when he saw Kobe for the first time that year, he instantly theorized it was Corliss Williamson punking him on the blocks during some games that made him want to bulk up.



and Kobe's best game came on days he also had court.
Its a shame he didn't have more legal troubles, maybe it would have motivated him to play that way game in, game out, the fear of prison rape is powerful, Kobe was playing for his life/manhood.


In the west playoffs Kobe led the lakers in scoring and assist in every round.
Wake me up when he was its most productive for every series.


Kobe especially played special when he took down the defending champs(Spurs) who where led by the defending league MVP(Duncan). That Laker team led by Kobe beats Detroit in 5.
What do you mean? It was Kobe who stopped playing the TEAM game that had gotten them that far to begin with. Had he been like Shaq and been an overseer of the game, they would have played better. Still lose to Detroit tho, nothing Kobe can do about that. Detroit mind ****ed Kobe into oblivion, ask Chauncey, he talks about how the team knew Kobe would start to get trigger happy if he didn't get his. They actually went against Larry Browns initial plan to swarm Shaq as had been customary for years. Ben Wallace was up to the challenge and the team felt Kobe would start to press the issue eventually. Its why Phil pleaded for Kobe to pass the ball. Sadly Kobe was only going to win Kobe's way. His utter failure trying to win this way is what ultimately lead to his trade demand.



That's not what we got. We got Shaq taking back the keys after Kobe drove it all way beating the strongest teams along the way. Shaq and Kobe won and got a three peat. Kobe and Shaq would of won another three peat. Kobe was not having any other way. Shaq(because of weight) could not just dominate like he would against every other lakers finals match ups up until then. Shaq couldn't just average 35+ points again and 17+ rebounds a game again. This Shaq actually got nothing even close to that. Detroit didn't even have to double team him any more and made him play defense. He was not Superman but a over weight Shaq. Shaq was still great and if playing off of Kobe a over weight Shaq was enough for Kobe to win 3 more rings and beat down Detroit like he did the round earlier against a better Spurs team. Shaq and Kobe relationship fallout is what lost them that series not Kobe.
LOOLOL. Wake me up when the coaching staff says it was in the best interest of the team for Kobe to play for himself then Ill believe you, instead we had him chucking away. Its telling that Karl Malone didn't come back to play once Shaq was gone and its telling that GP returned to him to win a title, so spare me the talent talk. Shaq was better than Kobe for another season after this in Miami. There are numerous reasons for their loss to Detroit, chief among them was Kobe's selfishness. Shaq was the best player that series so I dont really care if he doesn't compare to his old form, nobody ever made that claim. Old Shaq was HISTORIC, no version of Kobe compares to that so its an unfair point to bring up. Shaq was also losing weight by 04, he was at his heaviest in 2003 when he made the decision to not fix his toe issue completely in order to save Kobe from leading the Lakers to the lottery. In retrospect, they should have let Shaq miss the entire season and tanked for Bron.


The Choke Job by Lebron is the poster for a epic choke. Not Kobe or anyone form the top 20 has ever fell off that far from a series let alone a finals.
Kobe has played worse in various Finals, I dont care what you subjectively define as the "poster (boy) for a(n) epic choke". KAJ for example has lost in R.1 while getting his skinny *** locked down, thats far worse than Bron losing in G6 of the Finals, and THATS KAJ!!! You either dont know your history or you hate this debate far more than you should.


Lebron left Cleveland and it was wrongfully justified by saying it's the only way anyone could win. Not even Jordan could win without another all stars and all the coward stuff James was justifying at the time.
Link? I dont remember any of those quotes.


Then Dallas not only embarrassed James but Dirk did what Jordan couldn't even do and what turned James into a coward. Win a title without another all star. To create a super team and lose to a bunch of journey men led by a single all star. Nothing will ever top that. It even made a name for itself. Like Flu game we know it's Jordan and finals choke job we know it's James.

Cool story, its STILL better than how Kobe played in various Finals.

Bostonjorge
05-26-2017, 10:05 PM
Yeah, this has always been an argument for me as well. Kobe was consistently excellent and was a top 5 caliber player pretty much year in and year out for more than a decade. But he was never the best player in the league in a given season, and I don't think he even deserved the one MVP he won, much less the award in any other year.
The same way James today is only a top 5 player in league but clearly behind Westbrook and Harden and then it's debatable if he's #3 or #4 behind Leonard or Durant for MVP. While James is still the best player in the league and should always be the best player in any playoff series.

You can say Kobe didn't deserve the MVP but it still didn't mean he wasn't the best player every playoff series he's played in from 04-10. Especially when he was taking down MVP's. Being MVP and the best basketball player are different. Best Basketball player in the world was Kobe's title and his era. Only player to win a back to back in that span and had a winning record against anyone who mattered. Like Duncan.

James started his reign in 2011 and that started with a choke finals lose. Rest is history. 2017 Durant is starting his(by stealing it) June 1st. One clutch basket at a time.

Chronz
05-26-2017, 10:10 PM
I agree with Jorge, if we were to consider shaq diesel the gen before and lebron the gen after, and Kobe plus everyone mentioned (as being better than Colby in a given year) as generation X (spoken with a project dialect), then "Kobe the slight chucker" was the best player of his generation, with consideration to Tim "snooze fest" Duncan. Those two clear head and shoulders above everyone else

Tim is EASILY better. You just underrate the importance of a dominant bigman, especially a 2-way beast like Duncan. KG and Kobe are a better comparison historically but during that span there were a few Tmac seasons for best player not named Shaq/Duncan.

Chronz
05-26-2017, 10:29 PM
The same way James today is only a top 5 player in league but clearly behind Westbrook and Harden and then it's debatable if he's #3 or #4 behind Leonard or Durant for MVP. While James is still the best player in the league and should always be the best player in any playoff series.

You can say Kobe didn't deserve the MVP but it still didn't mean he wasn't the best player every playoff series he's played in from 04-10. Especially when he was taking down MVP's. Being MVP and the best basketball player are different. Best Basketball player in the world was Kobe's title and his era. Only player to win a back to back in that span and had a winning record against anyone who mattered. Like Duncan.

James started his reign in 2011 and that started with a choke finals lose. Rest is history. 2017 Durant is starting his(by stealing it) June 1st. One clutch basket at a time.

But that was Shaq back then, Kobe SHOULD have been at the stage in his career where he goes full bore, unfortunately he wasn't thinking about the team. Shaq had poor defensive habits but the team had never developed as a unit to utilize his strengths the way other teams would in the coming years. Losing Malone really hurt that too.

Jeffy25
05-27-2017, 12:40 PM
Also, in additional to the titles talk, people love to bash LeBron for joining other players because Jordan didn't, and while that narrative is incredibly tired, I thought I would add in that he also has to face other super teams. Jordan never faced super teams. Payton and Kemp, Malone and Stockton. He faced good duo's, which he had with Pippen (the perfect compliment to an Jordan archetype if there ever was one).

Bron joining a super team to face other super teams.

two quick examples:
KG, Allen, Pierce
a 73 win Warriors team that adds a MVP in his prime

Doesn't include Gasol and Aldridge joining Duncan, Ginolbi, Parker, and Leonard.

Bron had to face the superteams that Jordan never did.

Jeffy25
05-27-2017, 12:57 PM
The same way James today is only a top 5 player in league but clearly behind Westbrook and Harden and then it's debatable if he's #3 or #4 behind Leonard or Durant for MVP. While James is still the best player in the league and should always be the best player in any playoff series.

you just argued that Kobe may not have had the best seasons statistically, but he turned it on when he had to and dominated guys like KG and Duncan when it mattered, that's what made him the best.

So after making that argument, you don't recognize that Bron coasts during the regular season and turns it on the playoffs


Bron regular season this year:
26.4/8.6/8.7 on .548 shooting and .363 3%
bron playoffs this year:
32.5/8/7 on .566 shooting and .421 3%

Clearly stepping it up

Tg11
05-27-2017, 01:19 PM
I would say if LeBron wins if the Cavs win back to back titles repeating as NBA Champs then LeBron would be in the discussion but he is nowhere near Jordan's 6 rings...LeBron only has 3 rings 2 with Miami 1 with Cleveland so if he wins his 4th ring then LeBron could be in the discussion as far as Kobe and Jordan are concerned

prodigy
05-27-2017, 02:47 PM
Depends on who the best player on their team in the series is (past couple games here in the ECF's it has been Kyrie, for one. Also if and what injuries occur (always a huge wild card), and how the series goes as a whole. You can't just answer this question without knowing how it would happen.

Not a problem I think we will have to worry about though.

Lebron avged a triple double LMAO. Kyrie had the big shot but the MVP was Lebron. People just love to hate this man lmao!!

Best basketball player is Lebron James. I mean hes better then Jordan at most things and what hes not better at its very close. Now whos more of a winner in the NBA, killer mindset, then sure Jordan. But if we talking straight up BBall player its Lebron.

Heediot
05-27-2017, 03:32 PM
Also, in additional to the titles talk, people love to bash LeBron for joining other players because Jordan didn't, and while that narrative is incredibly tired, I thought I would add in that he also has to face other super teams. Jordan never faced super teams. Payton and Kemp, Malone and Stockton. He faced good duo's, which he had with Pippen (the perfect compliment to an Jordan archetype if there ever was one).

Bron joining a super team to face other super teams.

two quick examples:
KG, Allen, Pierce
a 73 win Warriors team that adds a MVP in his prime

Doesn't include Gasol and Aldridge joining Duncan, Ginolbi, Parker, and Leonard.

Bron had to face the superteams that Jordan never did.

Why is it that there are so many supposed super teams since roughly 2010?

There are good teams that know how to milk the current system and rules on the court to their advantage, but to me that doesn't make them better then teams in the past. It seems like there are at least 2 historic teams according to stat geeks every year lately.

krazylegz
05-27-2017, 04:49 PM
he will be ranked ahead of jordan....and the national media will finally recognize it too

nastynice
05-27-2017, 05:43 PM
Lebron avged a triple double LMAO. Kyrie had the big shot but the MVP was Lebron. People just love to hate this man lmao!!

Best basketball player is Lebron James. I mean hes better then Jordan at most things and what hes not better at its very close. Now whos more of a winner in the NBA, killer mindset, then sure Jordan. But if we talking straight up BBall player its Lebron.

I don't know if I can agree with that. lebron is more versatile, but that doesn't make him better. Jordan more of an "unstoppable force" than lebron, that dude would just absolutely dominate stretches. Lebron does too, but doesn't feel like the degree Jordan did. Plus who you want taking your last shot when down 2? His play to close games was just ridiculous. On BOTH ends.

ODB13
05-27-2017, 06:38 PM
Solidly, distantly behind MJ.

Jordan got six, all the finals MVPs and regular season MVPs.

And, most importantly, he didn't play in an era where the league was awful. Jordan's battles through the eastern conference were legendary. LeBron's competition is non-existent.

The question is silly. Anyone who didn't vote with the majority on this one should be ashamed to call themselves hoops fans.

ODB13
05-27-2017, 06:41 PM
Also, in additional to the titles talk, people love to bash LeBron for joining other players because Jordan didn't, and while that narrative is incredibly tired, I thought I would add in that he also has to face other super teams. Jordan never faced super teams. Payton and Kemp, Malone and Stockton. He faced good duo's, which he had with Pippen (the perfect compliment to an Jordan archetype if there ever was one).

Bron joining a super team to face other super teams.

two quick examples:
KG, Allen, Pierce
a 73 win Warriors team that adds a MVP in his prime

Doesn't include Gasol and Aldridge joining Duncan, Ginolbi, Parker, and Leonard.

Bron had to face the superteams that Jordan never did.

God this is so ignorant.

Forget "big threes" which didn't exist until Boston did it when the quality have play began to plummet. I'll give LeBron credit for copying that model.

The teams Jordan faced destroy the "big three" model teams of today. The 90s Knicks, Pacers, Heat, Magic, Celtics, Pistons... All those teams are superior teams to the teams of today. By a lot.

papipapsmanny
05-27-2017, 11:47 PM
Jordan also never faced a team with four of the league's best 20 players on it.

Yeah but Jordan never played with two other top 15-20 players in the league to win his ships either, which Lebron has done for every single one of his... can't have it both ways

papipapsmanny
05-28-2017, 12:01 AM
You have to be more consistent here.


First of all, Jordan's first year in the Finals was his age 27 season, which for Bron was the same year he won his first title. At the age 22 he got swept by the Spurs (as was expected). Kind of hard to blame him for that considering that was the same age that Jordan broke his leg. The mere fact that at 22 he carried a crap Cavs team to the Finals was very impressive. In fact, at that age, he carried the Cavs to 25.8/8/8 per game en route to the Finals....again, at 22!

But we should somehow accord this into his Finals career numbers when Jordan was several years away from even making his first appearance?

Then his second time in the Finals was at his age 26, when he was embarrassed by Dallas. He still posted 26/9/5.5 en route to those Finals.

That's the same year that Jordan got physically beat up by the 'Jordan Rules'. He still didn't have a Finals appearance, but Bron already had two, but was considered by his haters as 0-2. If only he had lost sooner in the playoffs, right? Then you couldn't use his successes against him.

Since being the age of Jordan, during each of their first year getting a title (age 27), here are their numbers in the Finals
Jordan - 33.6 PPG, 4.6 TRB, 6.0 APG, 1.8 SPG, .66 BPG, .481 FG%, .367 3% = 12.5 FG on 26.0 FGA, 1.2 3's on 3.3 attempts
Bron - 29.5 PPG, 10.8 TRB, 7.4 APG, 2 SPG, 1 BPG, .464 FG%, .360 3% = 11 FG on 23.7 FGA, 1.9 3's on 5.1 3 attempts

They each have 3 titles, Jordan missed a playoff round (you can argue that he was rusty, but he played pretty well against the Magic in that series putting up pretty much his average playoff numbers.


You have to remember how young Bron is and how many more years he will be playing at a high level. If Jordan can 3 peat from age 32-34, it's not impossible to think Bron can't find more Finals MVP's in his future. Especially with the way he has been playing in the playoffs this year and how he closed out the Finals last year. It's not like he's playing poorly or something or showing an obvious decline.

He is going to his 7th straight Finals.....and has obviously been not only the best player on his teams, but in the league while doing so.

Offer some context... as we know Jordan went to college so obviously he was older when he entered the league, which obviously means Jordan is older than Lebron even looking at their first 5 years in the league.... That is simple.

2nd, show me where Lebron was running into teams like Celtics or Pistons teams that MJ was facing.... Easy answer Lebron wasn't and hasn't.

The East is awful, the number 1 seed fell behind 2-0 this year to the 8th seed and barely beat my Wizards.

Of a lesser point Lebron just barely passed MJ for career playoff points.... and it took him 33 more games to do so

ODB13
05-28-2017, 12:28 AM
Offer some context... as we know Jordan went to college so obviously he was older when he entered the league, which obviously means Jordan is older than Lebron even looking at their first 5 years in the league.... That is simple.

2nd, show me where Lebron was running into teams like Celtics or Pistons teams that MJ was facing.... Easy answer Lebron wasn't and hasn't.

The East is awful, the number 1 seed fell behind 2-0 this year to the 8th seed and barely beat my Wizards.

Of a lesser point Lebron just barely passed MJ for career playoff points.... and it took him 33 more games to do so

The east is so pathetic, and has been LeBron's whole career, that he can take games off and coast through the regular season. Could you imagine Jordan getting away with that in the days of the Larry's Celts, Isaiah's Pistons, Ewing's Knicks, Reggie's Pacers, Alonzo's Heat, or Shaq's Magic? And many more.

To think LeBron is anywhere NEAR Jordan is just awful. You can't take numbers out of context in basketball, no matter how much some would like to.

nastynice
05-28-2017, 12:28 AM
While the east has been more of a junior varsity league since the late 90's, 3 of the 8 or so decent squads since then were teams lebron went through, the big 3 Celtics, d rose Bulls, and d12 Magic.

ODB13
05-28-2017, 12:32 AM
While the east has been more of a junior varsity league since the late 90's, 3 of the 8 or so decent squads since then were teams lebron went through, the big 3 Celtics, d rose Bulls, and d12 Magic.

Are you really comparing those teams to what Jordan saw in the 90s? Maybe, MAYBE I'll say the Celts were on par, but that's it. Come on, now.

papipapsmanny
05-28-2017, 12:54 AM
While the east has been more of a junior varsity league since the late 90's, 3 of the 8 or so decent squads since then were teams lebron went through, the big 3 Celtics, d rose Bulls, and d12 Magic.

D12 Magic and D-Rose Bulls..... Really?

He beat the Celtics in 7 games when Piece, Garnett and Allen were 34, 35, and 36.

Next best team is what a Paul George Pacers with Lance Stephenson, Hill, and Hibbert? I mean come one lets put some reality into this. The East has been God awful. Don't even bring up the Raptors that team is sorry in the playoffs

ODB13
05-28-2017, 01:16 AM
This thread was simply made by a Bron Bron fanboy to get him some positive attention. To make this comparison is just silly business at this point.

nastynice
05-28-2017, 01:31 AM
Are you really comparing those teams to what Jordan saw in the 90s? Maybe, MAYBE I'll say the Celts were on par, but that's it. Come on, now.

Ah come on, you really think Reggie Miller and Rik Smits pacers were some kinda step above the d rose Bulls? I don't think so. Knicks, Jazz, Sonics, Suns, and Magic, are prob better tho

More-Than-Most
05-28-2017, 01:50 AM
Kyrie

game 1- 4/11 11 points 6 assists 2 rebounds 2 turnovers

Game 2- 8/11 23 points 3 assists 1 steal 1 turnover

game 3- 10/15 29 points 7 assists 1 steal 3 turnovers

game 4- 15/22 42 points 4 assists 3 rebounds 3 turnovers

game 5- 9/15 24 points 7 assists 2 rebounds 2 steals 3 turnovers


Lebron James

game 1- 14-24 38 points 9 rebounds 7 assists 2 steals 2 turnovers

game 2- 12-18 30 points 7 assists 4 rebounds 4 steals 3 blocks 1 turnover

game 3- 4-13 11 points 6 assists 6 rebounds 1 block 1 steal 6 turnovers

game 4- 15/27 34 points 6 assists 5 rebounds 1 steal 1 block 5 turnovers

game 5- 13/18 35 points 8 assists 8 rebounds 3 steals 1 block 2 turnovers


Now factor in Lebron played amazing defense while being double teamed the majority of the time... Kyrie had IT the first 2 games guarding him lol... gtfo... its def close except lebron ya know rebounds and i know that doesnt matter here on PSD to the anti westy people but on top of this lebron defends far far far better but somehow kyrie was the MVP for the cavs in that series

Fun note... Lebron had that bad game this series where he was still a plus 1 while kyrie was 0... for the series lebron was plus 108 while kyrie was plus 91.... Both were fantastic no doubt but again lebron rebounding/defense and being the focal point of the other team all series is where the value is at... This goes right back to us taking what lebron does for granted.... Kyrie was more careful with the ball and shot a ridiculous percentage for the series no doubt.


Further more... Kyrie goes 4-11 11 points 6 assists/2 turnovers in the first game the cavs win comfortably.... Lebron goes 4-13 11 points/6 assists/6 rebounds 6 turnovers and they lose.

If the cavs have any shot at the warriors Kyrie will need to be the MVP of the finals... Not kidding. Lebron will be lebron but kyrie needs to go the **** off... He wont have IT guarding him though.

Jamiecballer
05-28-2017, 09:12 AM
He's already next to jordan, literally, imo, and likely will stay there for good.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

prodigy
05-28-2017, 09:15 AM
I don't know if I can agree with that. lebron is more versatile, but that doesn't make him better. Jordan more of an "unstoppable force" than lebron, that dude would just absolutely dominate stretches. Lebron does too, but doesn't feel like the degree Jordan did. Plus who you want taking your last shot when down 2? His play to close games was just ridiculous. On BOTH ends.

He said Irving was the MVP of last seasons team. Lebron avg'ed close to a triple double and lead both teams in pretty much every stat line lol. Thats a fact no disagreeing with facts.

Once again and prob last time ill say this. lebron can dominate every aspect of a game. Scoring, rebounding, passing, defense etc... Jordan Avg 3 more pts on 4 more shots a game. When Jordan left the bulls in 93-94 season they won 55 games and got screwed in game 7 of east finals. What happen to cavs and heat when he left? lol. I love both players and both are amazing. But I'm taking Lebron.

ODB13
05-28-2017, 02:49 PM
Ah come on, you really think Reggie Miller and Rik Smits pacers were some kinda step above the d rose Bulls? I don't think so. Knicks, Jazz, Sonics, Suns, and Magic, are prob better tho

Yes, easily. Those Pacers teams played some serious defense. Without Jordan, they would have broken through to the Finals a couple times. Beats the pants of the D12 Magic... lol I can't believe you even suggested that.

And you forgot about Larry's Celts, Isaiah's Pistons, Alonzo's Heat, etc., etc....

Jordan's competition was fierce. LeBron's has been lukewarm, at best. It's nobody's fault, it's just what happened to the league, and it's a cold fact.

Jeffy25
05-28-2017, 03:24 PM
Why is it that there are so many supposed super teams since roughly 2010?

There are good teams that know how to milk the current system and rules on the court to their advantage, but to me that doesn't make them better then teams in the past. It seems like there are at least 2 historic teams according to stat geeks every year lately.

Well the game has greatly evolved. You also have expansion, and draft rights used to be territorial, and free agency. Plus the game really isn't that old either.



These obviously make the game vastly different than it used to be.

Jeffy25
05-28-2017, 03:26 PM
God this is so ignorant.

Forget "big threes" which didn't exist until Boston did it when the quality have play began to plummet. I'll give LeBron credit for copying that model.

The teams Jordan faced destroy the "big three" model teams of today. The 90s Knicks, Pacers, Heat, Magic, Celtics, Pistons... All those teams are superior teams to the teams of today. By a lot.

And where do you come up with such a conclusion?

Jeffy25
05-28-2017, 03:32 PM
Offer some context... as we know Jordan went to college so obviously he was older when he entered the league, which obviously means Jordan is older than Lebron even looking at their first 5 years in the league.... That is simple.
Were talking about their entire NBA careers, right? Bron is just now the age that Jordan was when he achieved his 4th ring. Jordan doesn't get extra credit for developing in college or getting rest in the middle of his 3 peats.

LeBron is going to play more seasons than Jordan. If every player in the NBA played the exact same number of years, than we could use the argument of 'this numbered year of their careers'.

Basketball fans are the only fans of any sport that will use the number of years in the league argument when discussing all-time, when all the other sports use the players ages because players develop and decline athletically more closely related to their physical ages in life.

Bron might play until he is 40, a 22 year career would easily pace him well above anything Jordan ever did.



2nd, show me where Lebron was running into teams like Celtics or Pistons teams that MJ was facing.... Easy answer Lebron wasn't and hasn't.
And Jordan never faced a team like the Warriors or Spurs.


The East is awful, the number 1 seed fell behind 2-0 this year to the 8th seed and barely beat my Wizards.
He's had plenty of competition going through the East throughout his career, but even if there is less parity than there was 25 years ago, just means that the talent at the top and the Finals is tougher than anything Jordan would have faced.

If when Jordan was playing he constantly had to battle top 10 players with good duo's along the way to the Finals, then that just means the talent is dispersed more then it is today, meaning when Bron finally gets to the Finals, he is facing tougher competition than Jordan would have.

Jordan never faced a team with 4 top 20 players in the game currently. In fact, I don't think he ever faced a true big 3 that consisted of 3 top 20 players in the game. Bron has several times.



Of a lesser point Lebron just barely passed MJ for career playoff points.... and it took him 33 more games to do so
And Bron takes 3 less field goal attempts per playoff game because he passes more and rebounds more than Jordan ever did. Jordan still has 120 more field goal attempts in the playoffs than Bron does, as Bron passed him in points.

You want context, let's not remove things when they are inconvenient.

nastynice
05-28-2017, 04:04 PM
Yes, easily. Those Pacers teams played some serious defense. Without Jordan, they would have broken through to the Finals a couple times. Beats the pants of the D12 Magic... lol I can't believe you even suggested that.

And you forgot about Larry's Celts, Isaiah's Pistons, Alonzo's Heat, etc., etc....

Jordan's competition was fierce. LeBron's has been lukewarm, at best. It's nobody's fault, it's just what happened to the league, and it's a cold fact.

Bro, haha, those pacers were nothing more special than these teams I mentioned. Non title contender trying to make a deep push and play role of spoiler.

europagnpilgrim
05-28-2017, 04:19 PM
Kyrie

game 1- 4/11 11 points 6 assists 2 rebounds 2 turnovers

Game 2- 8/11 23 points 3 assists 1 steal 1 turnover

game 3- 10/15 29 points 7 assists 1 steal 3 turnovers

game 4- 15/22 42 points 4 assists 3 rebounds 3 turnovers

game 5- 9/15 24 points 7 assists 2 rebounds 2 steals 3 turnovers


Lebron James

game 1- 14-24 38 points 9 rebounds 7 assists 2 steals 2 turnovers

game 2- 12-18 30 points 7 assists 4 rebounds 4 steals 3 blocks 1 turnover

game 3- 4-13 11 points 6 assists 6 rebounds 1 block 1 steal 6 turnovers

game 4- 15/27 34 points 6 assists 5 rebounds 1 steal 1 block 5 turnovers

game 5- 13/18 35 points 8 assists 8 rebounds 3 steals 1 block 2 turnovers


Now factor in Lebron played amazing defense while being double teamed the majority of the time... Kyrie had IT the first 2 games guarding him lol... gtfo... its def close except lebron ya know rebounds and i know that doesnt matter here on PSD to the anti westy people but on top of this lebron defends far far far better but somehow kyrie was the MVP for the cavs in that series

Fun note... Lebron had that bad game this series where he was still a plus 1 while kyrie was 0... for the series lebron was plus 108 while kyrie was plus 91.... Both were fantastic no doubt but again lebron rebounding/defense and being the focal point of the other team all series is where the value is at... This goes right back to us taking what lebron does for granted.... Kyrie was more careful with the ball and shot a ridiculous percentage for the series no doubt.


Further more... Kyrie goes 4-11 11 points 6 assists/2 turnovers in the first game the cavs win comfortably.... Lebron goes 4-13 11 points/6 assists/6 rebounds 6 turnovers and they lose.

If the cavs have any shot at the warriors Kyrie will need to be the MVP of the finals... Not kidding. Lebron will be lebron but kyrie needs to go the **** off... He wont have IT guarding him though.

Now factor in that Lebron had ManBun/Jerekbo(however you spell his name/Smart guarding him after every pick n roll switch, that is very favorable for Lebron and you can even throw in Horford as well, he had a midget in Smart/Bradley or a slow footed defender guarding him for a lot of sets or in fast break opportunities

Lebron wont have those same midgets or slow footed ones guarding/switching on him in this upcoming series, KD/Dray/Iggy/Klay are way better equipped and not saying this will stop Lebron from getting his numbers but he can be contained to a better degree than what the midget/slow footed Celtics players were capable of doing

you did watch the series right? or did you stop watching after the 1st qtr of each game?

Bartlee23
05-28-2017, 04:35 PM
Were talking about their entire NBA careers, right? Bron is just now the age that Jordan was when he achieved his 4th ring. Jordan doesn't get extra credit for developing in college or getting rest in the middle of his 3 peats.

Because it wouldn't work out in your favor right.....


Basketball fans are the only fans of any sport that will use the number of years in the league argument when discussing all-time, when all the other sports use the players ages because players develop and decline athletically more closely related to their physical ages in life.

They are ??? Show me a list that has Mike Trout as the GOAT in baseball or a list that has Barry Sanders as the GOAT running back in football? An argument can be made for both but fact is you're wrong.

Bron might play until he is 40, a 22 year career would easily pace him well above anything Jordan ever did.

Ok..... I see so a longer career and not going to College works out for your narrative so it has to be correct... I get it...lol.


And Jordan never faced a team like the Warriors or Spurs.

Different era,different rules,etc again not a great comparison.

He's had plenty of competition going through the East throughout his career, but even if there is less parity than there was 25 years ago, just means that the talent at the top and the Finals is tougher than anything Jordan would have faced.

Who is this " great competition ???? " before this year Over 70% of Jordanís playoff opponents in his career had 50+ wins, and just above 50% of LeBronís playoff opponents in his career have had 50+ wins. Both players have won five series without home-court advantage. Jordan NEVER lost a series with home-court advantage, LeBron has lost 3 series with home-court advantage, one was his fault, one was not entirely his fault, and one was entirely on his teammates

If when Jordan was playing he constantly had to battle top 10 players with good duo's along the way to the Finals, then that just means the talent is dispersed more then it is today, meaning when Bron finally gets to the Finals, he is facing tougher competition than Jordan would have.

it has been already stated in other threads. LeBron has won nothing with top players himself... can't have it both ways.

Jordan never faced a team with 4 top 20 players in the game currently. In fact, I don't think he ever faced a true big 3 that consisted of 3 top 20 players in the game. Bron has several times.

See above........


And Bron takes 3 less field goal attempts per playoff game because he passes more and rebounds more than Jordan ever did. Jordan still has 120 more field goal attempts in the playoffs than Bron does, as Bron passed him in points.

Oh I get it.... so if Jordan would of shot less and LeBron would of shot more then we can consider it. Or if LeBron would have got an education and Jordan would of came out of high school then we could consider it...lol.

You want context, let's not remove things when they are inconvenient.

Exactly....... Thanks for the laugh... Happy Memorial Day.

Bostonjorge
05-28-2017, 04:49 PM
Lebron takes down a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier teams and his fans bring up Jordan and skip pass every other legend. That's a joke.

Then he gets beat by one of the 1st tier teams and we give him a pass because he just took down some 2nd tier team at that's what trully matters. This is the case for majority of the lebron era with his losing finals record.

Every time James was/gets destroyed like he's a 2nd tier team type player his legecy is affected negatively. Legacy don't ignore or down play anything.

Jamiecballer
05-28-2017, 05:16 PM
Yes, easily. Those Pacers teams played some serious defense. Without Jordan, they would have broken through to the Finals a couple times. Beats the pants of the D12 Magic... lol I can't believe you even suggested that.

And you forgot about Larry's Celts, Isaiah's Pistons, Alonzo's Heat, etc., etc....

Jordan's competition was fierce. LeBron's has been lukewarm, at best. It's nobody's fault, it's just what happened to the league, and it's a cold fact.
I don't think your subjective, old timey statements can be classified as facts. Attitudes like this can be directly attributed to nba league pass imo. Weekly national broadcasts of the same 6-8 teams gave a greatly exaggerated quality to teams that were pretty good at best.

Wade n Fade
05-28-2017, 05:30 PM
I wonder what is the chance Curry or Durant leave the Dubs if they lose another Finals to LBJ? I would have to say slim to none because of the recipe to create a possible dynasty in the upcoming years.

ODB13
05-28-2017, 05:47 PM
And where do you come up with such a conclusion?

Hang on... Really?

Is this a debate you actually want to have?

Jeffy25
05-28-2017, 09:11 PM
Hang on... Really?

Is this a debate you actually want to have?

Bring it. You just said the Pacers with Miller were better than the Bulls and Magic with Rose and Howard.


Instead of going through every team that Jordan faced. Who were the top players you feel like he toppled and what would you say their ranks in the league, and all-time would have been?

He did beat Barkley, Thomas, Dumars, Magic, Worthy, Ewing, Miller, Shaq and Penny.

Shaq was still a pup, Barkley, Ewing, and Miller had no help, Thomas and Dumars were part of a great team but not that special in their own rights. Magic only played him in the one Finals. Worthy was a great compliment, but not all time special talent.

Beating Shaq at 23 is like beating the Thunder in 12 where Durant and Westbrook are pups.

He beat Curry and the Warriors, which had 3 top 15 players in the game at time.

He beat the Spurs with Duncan, beat an aging Celtics team, a great Pacers team etc.

Bron has faced plenty of top talented players, but the biggest thing is that if the argument is that the teams weren't as good, that just means the talent wouldn't be dispersed as well, considering he is facing great assemblies of talent in the Finals and ECF. Which is true. Jordan never faced a team with multiple top 20 guys on the same team.

He faced top talented players, who were by themselves (or part of a good duo) and some good teams with no all-time greats.

nastynice
05-28-2017, 09:26 PM
Mostly agree, but that magic team was no joke. That was a savage team, a bit young, but they were getting there. I think they were a better team than the rockets that beat them.

Their starting five was borderline insane, two of the best marksmen in the league in Scott and Anderson, one of the top power forwards in Grant, a 6'7 point guard with legitimate post game in Penny, and what we saw becoming one of the most unstoppable forces in basketball in shaq.

When I see that team play, it doesn't add up how they had no rings. Obviously shaq leaving threw things outta wack, but if the magic paid shaq instead of letting him walk, I think that mighta been dynasty status

FlashBolt
05-28-2017, 11:16 PM
God this is so ignorant.

Forget "big threes" which didn't exist until Boston did it when the quality have play began to plummet. I'll give LeBron credit for copying that model.

The teams Jordan faced destroy the "big three" model teams of today. The 90s Knicks, Pacers, Heat, Magic, Celtics, Pistons... All those teams are superior teams to the teams of today. By a lot.

No it's not. And you clearly suffer from short-term memory loss.

Mr.B
05-29-2017, 02:46 AM
Bring it. You just said the Pacers with Miller were better than the Bulls and Magic with Rose and Howard.


Instead of going through every team that Jordan faced. Who were the top players you feel like he toppled and what would you say their ranks in the league, and all-time would have been?

He did beat Barkley, Thomas, Dumars, Magic, Worthy, Ewing, Miller, Shaq and Penny.

Shaq was still a pup, Barkley, Ewing, and Miller had no help, Thomas and Dumars were part of a great team but not that special in their own rights. Magic only played him in the one Finals. Worthy was a great compliment, but not all time special talent.

Beating Shaq at 23 is like beating the Thunder in 12 where Durant and Westbrook are pups.

He beat Curry and the Warriors, which had 3 top 15 players in the game at time.

He beat the Spurs with Duncan, beat an aging Celtics team, a great Pacers team etc.

Bron has faced plenty of top talented players, but the biggest thing is that if the argument is that the teams weren't as good, that just means the talent wouldn't be dispersed as well, considering he is facing great assemblies of talent in the Finals and ECF. Which is true. Jordan never faced a team with multiple top 20 guys on the same team.

He faced top talented players, who were by themselves (or part of a good duo) and some good teams with no all-time greats.

Jordan did beat Stockton and Malone in their prime though. He also beat Gary Payton and a young Shawn Kemp who was every bit as good as Blake Griffin is now.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 02:59 AM
Jordan did beat Stockton and Malone in their prime though. He also beat Gary Payton and a young Shawn Kemp who was every bit as good as Blake Griffin is now.

I actually started typing up a thing about both of those duo's and I guess I lost it and never posted it. I agree, those were some good duo's, both of which deserved a ring in their day.

FlashBolt
05-29-2017, 11:23 AM
Jordan did beat Stockton and Malone in their prime though. He also beat Gary Payton and a young Shawn Kemp who was every bit as good as Blake Griffin is now.

Which honestly, doesn't say much.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 12:29 PM
Which honestly, doesn't say much.

Paul is basically John Stockton. That Jazz team would be like the Clippers now, because Griffin could be considered Malone. Griffin shoots less than Malone, Stockton shoots less than Paul. Otherwise, they are incredibly similar when you dive into their numbers. Also, Hornacek and Reddick are a pretty good comp too.

I mean that's a completely accurate comparison, and the Clippers can't even get to the Finals, and they are basically the late 90's Jazz, only younger. And look at the players on the Clippers helping out Griffin and Paul. Ostertag was no Deandre Jordan. Jamal Crawford? Nobody on that Jazz team was a Crawford.



If that Clippers team can't even reach the WCF, how can we pretend like Bron is facing the same level of competition that Jordan was?

Bostonjorge
05-29-2017, 12:41 PM
Paul is basically John Stockton. That Jazz team would be like the Clippers now, because Griffin could be considered Malone. Griffin shoots less than Malone, Stockton shoots less than Paul. Otherwise, they are incredibly similar when you dive into their numbers. Also, Hornacek and Reddick are a pretty good comp too.

I mean that's a completely accurate comparison, and the Clippers can't even get to the Finals, and they are basically the late 90's Jazz, only younger. And look at the players on the Clippers helping out Griffin and Paul. Ostertag was no Deandre Jordan. Jamal Crawford? Nobody on that Jazz team was a Crawford.



If that Clippers team can't even reach the WCF, how can we pretend like Bron is facing the same level of competition that Jordan was?

That same Clipper team can't get past the second round yet are better than every east team not named Cleveland the last 3 years. Yet somehow dominating the same weaker then Clipper teams gets you this thread about being Jordan.

No player especially Jordan has had a 3 year span of playing in a conference with zero tier one teams as competition.

I got the Clippers who took down the Spurs in 2015 led by Blake over the Jazz. That would be a fun series to watch.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 01:06 PM
That same Clipper team can't get past the second round yet are better than every east team not named Cleveland the last 3 years. Yet somehow dominating the same weaker then Clipper teams gets you this thread about being Jordan.
You didn't see the earlier posts on this?

It was implied that Jordan faced tougher competition than Bron. But Bron still has to face the best team of the West every year in the Finals. If everybody in the East sucks, that means the collection of talent that he faces in the West is going to be greater than anything Jordan ever faced (and it really is, the Warriors and Spurs are vastly superior than anything Jordan ever touched).



No player especially Jordan has had a 3 year span of playing in a conference with zero tier one teams as competition.
Magic Johnson

tredigs
05-29-2017, 01:15 PM
It was implied that Jordan faced tougher competition than Bron. But Bron still has to face the best team of the West every year in the Finals. If everybody in the East sucks, that means the collection of talent that he faces in the West is going to be greater than anything Jordan ever faced (and it really is, the Warriors and Spurs are vastly superior than anything Jordan ever touched).



Magic Johnson

This year is an anomaly because of West injuries to other contenders, but generally it's a gauntlet for them to get through each other, and they beat each other up quite a bit en route to the Finals. It's rare to get the best/healthiest version of a West team in the Finals, where as in the East it's more or less a stroll for Bron and whatever All Star cast he's working with at the time. Credit to him for his consistently dominant runs, but there is no world where he is going to 7 straight Finals in the West. The argument commonly made for him being on a West team is that he would in turn have a better squad, but that's just not realistic. There's a salary cap. He could not just plop onto the Clippers without them losing Griffin for example. And he already plays on the team with the highest paid roster in the league. Jordan definitely faced tougher comp than Bron has, but he did not beat better comp than Bron did. It's a shame we did not get to see the peak Bulls teams with Pippen in full force against the Celtics or Bad Boy Pistons. Generally when Lebron faces a better team, he loses. Last years Finals is by far his #1 legacy achievement. And if he won this Finals, all bets are off.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 01:41 PM
This year is an anomaly because of West injuries to other contenders, but generally it's a gauntlet for them to get through each other, and they beat each other up quite a bit en route to the Finals. It's rare to get the best/healthiest version of a West team in the Finals, where as in the East it's more or less a stroll for Bron and whatever All Star cast he's working with at the time. Credit to him for his consistently dominant runs, but there is no world where he is going to 7 straight Finals in the West. The argument commonly made for him being on a West team is that he would in turn have a better squad, but that's just not realistic. There's a salary cap. He could not just plop onto the Clippers without them losing Griffin for example. And he already plays on the team with the highest paid roster in the league. Jordan definitely faced tougher comp than Bron has, but he did not beat better comp than Bron did. It's a shame we did not get to see the peak Bulls teams with Pippen in full force against the Celtics or Bad Boy Pistons. Generally when Lebron faces a better team, he loses. Last years Finals is by far his #1 legacy achievement. And if he won this Finals, all bets are off.

If all of this is the case, then shouldn't we drop the Finals record argument?

tredigs
05-29-2017, 01:48 PM
If all of this is the case, then shouldn't we drop the Finals record argument?

I'm much more concerned with how a player performs in a Finals than the teams outcome when discussing legacy. For example, if 'Bron plays fantastic in this years Finals and still loses, it will not be held against him (that much has already been made very clear by fans and media alike). Hell he has actually played poorly in a Finals and it was not held against him because the deck was too stacked against him (San Antonio '07). MJ's Bulls did not just win every Finals they played, he personally DOMINATED in each one. It matters. 'Bron losing a Finals in his peak that they were favored in also matters (a lot). Specifically as he was not even the best player on his own team, let alone the series.

Bostonjorge
05-29-2017, 02:27 PM
No way can anyone argue that James has played/won against better or more stacked teams then any other top 10 player let alone Jordan. You make a list of the weakest teams eliminated in the playoffs and the teams eliminated by James are easily 90% of the top 20 list. Some teams on the list are also what James played in the ECF.

tredigs
05-29-2017, 02:37 PM
No way can anyone argue that James has played/won against better or more stacked teams then any other top 10 player let alone Jordan. You make a list of the weakest teams eliminated in the playoffs and the teams eliminated by James are easily 90% of the top 20 list. Some teams on the list are also what James played in the ECF.
Eh - 'Bron has played his fair share of dominant teams. The East by and large is weak and his teams have been stacked lately, but there has been playoff fodder for all the greats, and their win over Golden State last year put to rest any questions of being able to take down a juggernaut. They were better on paper than the version that played in the Finals, but that team was better than any squad 95% of the greats ever beat (arguably all of them).

Mr.B
05-29-2017, 02:57 PM
Paul is basically John Stockton. That Jazz team would be like the Clippers now, because Griffin could be considered Malone. Griffin shoots less than Malone, Stockton shoots less than Paul. Otherwise, they are incredibly similar when you dive into their numbers. Also, Hornacek and Reddick are a pretty good comp too.

I mean that's a completely accurate comparison, and the Clippers can't even get to the Finals, and they are basically the late 90's Jazz, only younger. And look at the players on the Clippers helping out Griffin and Paul. Ostertag was no Deandre Jordan. Jamal Crawford? Nobody on that Jazz team was a Crawford.



If that Clippers team can't even reach the WCF, how can we pretend like Bron is facing the same level of competition that Jordan was?

Stockton was so much better in his prime than Paul ever was. It's not even close and kind of funny someone would even compare the two. Stockton is arguably the greatest PG of all time. Paul isn't even the best of his generation. Don't get me wrong he's an all star and a very good player but nowhere near Stockton's level.

Same goes for trying to compare Griffin to Malone. Again, Malone is widely considered the 2nd best PF or all time. He's #2 on the all time scoring list and was light years ahead of Griffin. That Utah team also had one of the greatest coaches in NBA history. Doc is great but again a tier below Jerry Sloan. With the talent and chemistry that Utah team had they would wipe the floor with this Clippers team. The Clippers would maybe win 2 games in a 7 game series but no way they beat that Utah team. That Clippers team probably compares closer to the Sonics team with Payton and a young Shawn Kemp.

Bostonjorge
05-29-2017, 04:22 PM
Eh - 'Bron has played his fair share of dominant teams. The East by and large is weak and his teams have been stacked lately, but there has been playoff fodder for all the greats, and their win over Golden State last year put to rest any questions of being able to take down a juggernaut. They were better on paper than the version that played in the Finals, but that team was better than any squad 95% of the greats ever beat (arguably all of them).

GS last year was a special regular season team but that's it. They got hurt once the playoffs started and stayed hurt. They didn't break any playoff records or bulldoz over the competition. They almost lost to a 3rd seed team and blew a 3-1 lead. GS from last year was one of the best if not best regular season team ever and that's it. What they accomplished in the playoffs is not on any top 20 list for performance or dominance. That does not make you 95% better then the teams that lost .

Defending champs(Spurs)with the defending MVP(Duncan goat PF version) lost to Kobe in 08. Magic lakers who have 5 rings and a back to back eliminated by Jordan. Shaq lakers lost to Spurs and we know how great Shaq lakers are. Kobe's lakers who would go on to win a back to back after being defeated by the Celtics. James Heat who would also go to win a back to back after losing to Dallas. All these losing teams would beat GS from last year. Just because James finally defeated a defending Champ in GS, let's not go crown that GS team as one of the greatest ever and put them on the list above of defeated Titans.

Of course this year GS is making playoff history and can challenge Lakers 15-1 in 2001. This GS is what I'm talking about when I say Titans. Going 12-0 to the finals is more intimidating going into the finals then being a 73-9 season team.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 06:00 PM
No way can anyone argue that James has played/won against better or more stacked teams then any other top 10 player let alone Jordan. You make a list of the weakest teams eliminated in the playoffs and the teams eliminated by James are easily 90% of the top 20 list. Some teams on the list are also what James played in the ECF.

Magic Johson, Kareem, Wilt, just to get things started. Depending who you want to consider in your top 10. But those three for sure had easier paths throughout their careers.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 06:05 PM
Stockton was so much better in his prime than Paul ever was. It's not even close and kind of funny someone would even compare the two. Stockton is arguably the greatest PG of all time. Paul isn't even the best of his generation. Don't get me wrong he's an all star and a very good player but nowhere near Stockton's level.
Statistically, Paul is a good measure better than Stockton. Having watched both, I felt that Stockton had better court awareness, but that both are very comparable all time (if Paul can remain as durable). Paul is an efficiency freak, who can dominant on both sides of the ball and run an offense. Both players need help though, neither can score enough on their own to really carry a squad.



Same goes for trying to compare Griffin to Malone. Again, Malone is widely considered the 2nd best PF or all time. He's #2 on the all time scoring list and was light years ahead of Griffin. That Utah team also had one of the greatest coaches in NBA history. Doc is great but again a tier below Jerry Sloan. With the talent and chemistry that Utah team had they would wipe the floor with this Clippers team. The Clippers would maybe win 2 games in a 7 game series but no way they beat that Utah team. That Clippers team probably compares closer to the Sonics team with Payton and a young Shawn Kemp.
I agree that Malone is/was better, but also a lot of his value comes from his longevity, not his peak. I would place his peak above Griffin's, but not by as much as you are indicating.


I think adding in Deandre Jordan and Jamal Crawford is what sets them above those Jazz teams (Hornacek and Redick being another good comp).

ODB13
05-29-2017, 11:18 PM
Basically, what the people who are seriously making these comparisons are doing is lining up statistics. As if you can evaluate basketball this way.

This folks haven't really thought this out any more deeply.

JordansBulls
05-29-2017, 11:28 PM
Lebron has been down in a series 3-2 every year of his career even with HCA. And was down 3-2 for 5 years in a row with HCA losing 3 years in a row with it. Jordan never lost with HCA and never was down 3-2 with HCA. Show me otherwise.

Jeffy25
05-29-2017, 11:59 PM
Basically, what the people who are seriously making these comparisons are doing is lining up statistics. As if you can evaluate basketball this way.

This folks haven't really thought this out any more deeply.

Because numbers are fake, right?

ODB13
05-30-2017, 12:19 AM
Because numbers are fake, right?

In basketball, like in football, individuals are not solely responsible for their numbers due to the nature of the game. It's not a 1-on-1 sport. You can't isolate performance like you can in baseball.

Numbers alone is just brain dead for this sport.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 12:38 AM
In basketball, like in football, individuals are not solely responsible for their numbers due to the nature of the game. It's not a 1-on-1 sport. You can't isolate performance like you can in baseball.

Numbers alone is just brain dead for this sport.

I agree, but you are literally using zero numbers.

ODB13
05-30-2017, 12:47 AM
The only case LeBron can make for the rest of his career is to be #2. And I think he's doing a good job making it.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 02:31 AM
The only case LeBron can make for the rest of his career is to be #2. And I think he's doing a good job making it.

You do realize his career isn't over yet, right? He is literally the same age Jordan was when he started his second three peat and got his 4th ring.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 09:09 AM
You do realize his career isn't over yet, right? He is literally the same age Jordan was when he started his second three peat and got his 4th ring.

My only problem with this " theory " is IMO I don't see his game aging like Jordan's did. LeBron is not a great shooter and those easy hoops/drive to the baskets will not come as easy (see missed dunk in playoffs) He also has lots of miles on his body and has had no significant injury to date.

LeBron has also already played in more playoff games than Jordan. He will eventually decline, and as Jordanís career numbers dipped, his will as well, but LeBron has literally played more games in his career than Jordan did with Chicago. ( Not counting Washington or Jordan's career numbers look much better )

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 10:35 AM
GS last year was a special regular season team but that's it. They got hurt once the playoffs started and stayed hurt. They didn't break any playoff records or bulldoz over the competition. They almost lost to a 3rd seed team and blew a 3-1 lead. GS from last year was one of the best if not best regular season team ever and that's it. What they accomplished in the playoffs is not on any top 20 list for performance or dominance. That does not make you 95% better then the teams that lost .

Defending champs(Spurs)with the defending MVP(Duncan goat PF version) lost to Kobe in 08. Magic lakers who have 5 rings and a back to back eliminated by Jordan. Shaq lakers lost to Spurs and we know how great Shaq lakers are. Kobe's lakers who would go on to win a back to back after being defeated by the Celtics. James Heat who would also go to win a back to back after losing to Dallas. All these losing teams would beat GS from last year. Just because James finally defeated a defending Champ in GS, let's not go crown that GS team as one of the greatest ever and put them on the list above of defeated Titans.

Of course this year GS is making playoff history and can challenge Lakers 15-1 in 2001. This GS is what I'm talking about when I say Titans. Going 12-0 to the finals is more intimidating going into the finals then being a 73-9 season team.

are you seriously trying to downplay a 73-9 team because it goes against the "Lebron has beat weak teams argument?"

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 12:06 PM
My only problem with this " theory " is IMO I don't see his game aging like Jordan's did. LeBron is not a great shooter and those easy hoops/drive to the baskets will not come as easy (see missed dunk in playoffs) He also has lots of miles on his body and has had no significant injury to date.

LeBron has also already played in more playoff games than Jordan. He will eventually decline, and as Jordanís career numbers dipped, his will as well, but LeBron has literally played more games in his career than Jordan did with Chicago. ( Not counting Washington or Jordan's career numbers look much better )

Is there anything in his performance right now (missed dunk, Jordan did it too, heck Wade did it years ago) that says he is clearly on the decline? Guy has learned his 3 point shot and, as you said, hasn't had the significant injury.

As long as he keeps coasting, he should be able to make several more title runs. Hell, Malone won the MVP at 35, with over 1100 career NBA games under his belt.

We have seen plenty of players age well with proper conditioning. I don't see LeBron aging too quickly. He should still have a few good years to keep coming at titles. I would imagine he is 4-5 years away from really starting to show the signs of slowing down. He's smarter than he used to be, but he's probably not as physically quick as he used to be.

Mr.B
05-30-2017, 12:11 PM
Statistically, Paul is a good measure better than Stockton. Having watched both, I felt that Stockton had better court awareness, but that both are very comparable all time (if Paul can remain as durable). Paul is an efficiency freak, who can dominant on both sides of the ball and run an offense. Both players need help though, neither can score enough on their own to really carry a squad.



I agree that Malone is/was better, but also a lot of his value comes from his longevity, not his peak. I would place his peak above Griffin's, but not by as much as you are indicating.


I think adding in Deandre Jordan and Jamal Crawford is what sets them above those Jazz teams (Hornacek and Redick being another good comp).

Byron Russell at that time was every bit as good as Crawford and was a better defender. Ostertag didn't play above the rim like Deandre does but was much more effective in offense and close on defense. The team chemistry though is what really sets the them apart. Utah was the definition of being a "team". They had back to back NBA Finals appearances (lost to Jordan's Bulls both times).

As for Griffin not being that far off from Malone, I'm going to have to disagree on that. Malone was an 11 time 1st Team All NBA, and 2 time MVP (should have been 3). The career points can be explained by his longevity but not the MVP's and 1st team All NBA awards. Those were all in his prime. Griffin hasn't sniffed anything near that level of success in his career. Griffin to me is more similar to Shawn Kemp than Malone.

Bartlee23
05-30-2017, 12:42 PM
Is there anything in his performance right now (missed dunk, Jordan did it too, heck Wade did it years ago) that says he is clearly on the decline? Guy has learned his 3 point shot and, as you said, hasn't had the significant injury.

As long as he keeps coasting, he should be able to make several more title runs. Hell, Malone won the MVP at 35, with over 1100 career NBA games under his belt.

We have seen plenty of players age well with proper conditioning. I don't see LeBron aging too quickly. He should still have a few good years to keep coming at titles. I would imagine he is 4-5 years away from really starting to show the signs of slowing down. He's smarter than he used to be, but he's probably not as physically quick as he used to be.

Thus the " IMO " thanks for sharing yours...lol.

prodigy
05-30-2017, 02:23 PM
Lebron has been down in a series 3-2 every year of his career even with HCA. And was down 3-2 for 5 years in a row with HCA losing 3 years in a row with it. Jordan never lost with HCA and never was down 3-2 with HCA. Show me otherwise.

OMG well then Lebron is total crap. worse player in the NBA what a Bum wow omg, omg, omg.

What happen in 93-94 when MJ left bulls? then tell me what happen when Lebron left cavs then left heat. tell me how all then teams faired go.

COOLbeans
05-30-2017, 02:31 PM
And he never faced a team anywhere close to as good as the Warriors. Nowhere close in fact.


Pretend the 80's Lakers added Bird. That's what you have in the current Warriors.

No. Kareem and Magic are better than anyone on the Warriors right now, and Bird is better than Durant.. and its not close.

COOLbeans
05-30-2017, 02:33 PM
The only case LeBron can make for the rest of his career is to be #2. And I think he's doing a good job making it.

Lebron will never be better than Kareem, Magic, Wilt, and even Kobe or Oscar. Anayltics isnt everything! This isnt even a debate. Lebron has shown more weaknesses in his career (eye test) than those guys ever did. Regardless of what he does in the future. (most likely 0 more championships and possibly 1 more MVP if hes lucky.)

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 02:41 PM
Did I just read that Greg Ostertag was nearly as effective as DeAndre Jordan?

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 02:45 PM
there is a lot of nostalgic posting going on in here haha. The players from yesterday, when we grew up, weren't gods. Guys like Reggie Miller, I have fought over and over again, is basically Klay Thompson with a little more balls when it comes to going to the rim. Shawn Kemp would be maybe Blake Griffin now? When did he learn to dribble more than 2 times without falling over haha?

I get that we look fondly on things from our youth, but please, the players now, are every bit as good, if not slightly better, than players back then. Sports now are so detailed, and specialized, athletes are just better at them over time. Goes for all sports really.

MarkieMark48
05-30-2017, 02:47 PM
there is a lot of nostalgic posting going on in here haha. The players from yesterday, when we grew up, weren't gods. Guys like Reggie Miller, I have fought over and over again, is basically Klay Thompson with a little more balls when it comes to going to the rim. Shawn Kemp would be maybe Blake Griffin now? When did he learn to dribble more than 2 times without falling over haha?

I get that we look fondly on things from our youth, but please, the players now, are every bit as good, if not slightly better, than players back then. Sports now are so detailed, and specialized, athletes are just better at them over time. Goes for all sports really.

I think this logic is spot on.... everything was better then you were a kid

ODB13
05-30-2017, 02:56 PM
Lebron will never be better than Kareem, Magic, Wilt, and even Kobe or Oscar. Anayltics isnt everything! This isnt even a debate. Lebron has shown more weaknesses in his career (eye test) than those guys ever did. Regardless of what he does in the future. (most likely 0 more championships and possibly 1 more MVP if hes lucky.)

LeBron is already past Kobe. He's just done more. He's a top 5 player, and will likely inch higher.

COOLbeans
05-30-2017, 02:56 PM
The game called basketball was diferent back in the 80, 90s and 2000's. Sure the atheletes are better at certain skills now then they wee then. But look at the dunk contest of today. Dudes can barely come up with anything creative. Especially the stars who are to scared to even compete. The competition level of yesterday is far better than it is today because of the rule changes and the money being offered. Obviously if Barkley couldve gotten 100 million, i htink he wouldve been a better ball player and in the gym more often.

Guys like Rod Strickland and even Steve Francis would run circles around a lot of these point guards today.

COOLbeans
05-30-2017, 03:02 PM
LeBron is already past Kobe. He's just done more. He's a top 5 player, and will likely inch higher.

He has more accolades because the league sucks now man. Its sucked for about 8 years now. If Lebron were going against HOFers in their prime like Kobe, he woudlnt be in the ECF 7 years in the row. no way of quantifying it, but the league is a disaster compared to Kobe and Duncan's era.

Duncan > Lebron from a pure basketball standpoint as well. Lebron is top 10 but will never break top 5 unless he runs off 3 more championships and 2 more league MVPs.

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russel
Robertson
Shaq
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron

Lebron, Duncan and Kobe are interchangeable.

Mr.B
05-30-2017, 03:03 PM
there is a lot of nostalgic posting going on in here haha. The players from yesterday, when we grew up, weren't gods. Guys like Reggie Miller, I have fought over and over again, is basically Klay Thompson with a little more balls when it comes to going to the rim. Shawn Kemp would be maybe Blake Griffin now? When did he learn to dribble more than 2 times without falling over haha?

I get that we look fondly on things from our youth, but please, the players now, are every bit as good, if not slightly better, than players back then. Sports now are so detailed, and specialized, athletes are just better at them over time. Goes for all sports really.

https://youtu.be/4-OkJgOTnug

Looking back Kemp might have actually been better than Griffin.

COOLbeans
05-30-2017, 03:05 PM
this 3 point analytics league of today has ruined the chances of any current great player from cracking the top 10. This isnt basketball its equations, math and bullshlt

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 03:09 PM
https://youtu.be/4-OkJgOTnug

Looking back Kemp might have actually been better than Griffin.

well, he wasn't. Though Kemp is a rough example, he got in his own way sooner than he should have.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 03:11 PM
The game called basketball was diferent back in the 80, 90s and 2000's. Sure the atheletes are better at certain skills now then they wee then. But look at the dunk contest of today. Dudes can barely come up with anything creative. Especially the stars who are to scared to even compete. The competition level of yesterday is far better than it is today because of the rule changes and the money being offered. Obviously if Barkley couldve gotten 100 million, i htink he wouldve been a better ball player and in the gym more often.

Guys like Rod Strickland and even Steve Francis would run circles around a lot of these point guards today.

you have to be kidding.

The only major differences are what skill sets are desired/needed across rule changes. Outside that, the athlete remains the same.

Again, nostalgia.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 03:12 PM
this 3 point analytics league of today has ruined the chances of any current great player from cracking the top 10. This isnt basketball its equations, math and bullshlt

patience.....rule changes always right the ship. They did when the league turned into an eye sore in the early 90's, early 2000's, and they will again. Though, who doesn't want to watch guys like Curry shoot 30 footers and score 120 points a game?

COOLbeans
05-30-2017, 03:50 PM
https://youtu.be/4-OkJgOTnug

Looking back Kemp might have actually been better than Griffin.

GP >> Chris Paul

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 03:52 PM
GP >> Chris Paul

not at all honestly. Paul has been basically as good of a defender, and he is easily the better offensive player.

Outside the whole winning part (which absolutely caps Paul's all time ranking), there really haven't been but 1-2 PG's better in league history.

ODB13
05-30-2017, 04:17 PM
When discussing the quality of teams, it's pretty dumb to discuss opposing players, as of they were individual hitters in a lineup.

The more important question is how they enhanced their particular team, how they enhanced the play around them. If we are discussing the strengths of teams, this is the route the conversation should follow.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 04:44 PM
When discussing the quality of teams, it's pretty dumb to discuss opposing players, as of they were individual hitters in a lineup.

The more important question is how they enhanced their particular team, how they enhanced the play around them. If we are discussing the strengths of teams, this is the route the conversation should follow.

absolutely.

But that takes an in depth look at not only matchup, but any injuries at the time, and all sorts of factors that need to be researched.

I think 2 things share a commonality here:

People either crap on the modern day, and inflate the past
or
People either crap on the past, and inflate the modern day

the reality is, outside the mid-late 2000's in the west, every chip team ran into a cupcake, and some teams that weren't really contenders along the way, for various reasons.

The other thing that always makes me shake my head is, if LeBron is in an easy conference, than shouldn't we expect him to make the finals every year? Well, what does he do?

Mr.B
05-30-2017, 04:47 PM
not at all honestly. Paul has been basically as good of a defender, and he is easily the better offensive player.

Outside the whole winning part (which absolutely caps Paul's all time ranking), there really haven't been but 1-2 PG's better in league history.

Personally I'd take prime GP over Chris Paul. I'd also take Magic, Kidd, and Stockton.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2017, 04:55 PM
Personally I'd take prime GP over Chris Paul. I'd also take Magic, Kidd, and Stockton.

I am sure you have your reasons why. I would take Magic, and Stockton over him, but that is probably it. However, due to his lack of playoff success (which is valid, even if not his fault really), I am not going to argue it.

The point is, I read a statement like, "Rod Strickland or Steve Francis could run circles around a lot of PG's today", and I just laugh. Those 2 would get eaten alive by a lot of the PG's today. That coming from a closet Strickland lover.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 07:59 PM
No. Kareem and Magic are better than anyone on the Warriors right now, and Bird is better than Durant.. and its not close.

Seriously?

Curry and Durant can both run up into the top 10 all-time depending how long they play. There is a reason they are piling up record number of wins and coasting through the loaded Western Conference.

I'm a huge Bird fan, but Durant is more dangerous.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 08:08 PM
The game called basketball was diferent back in the 80, 90s and 2000's. Sure the atheletes are better at certain skills now then they wee then. But look at the dunk contest of today. Dudes can barely come up with anything creative. Especially the stars who are to scared to even compete. The competition level of yesterday is far better than it is today because of the rule changes and the money being offered. Obviously if Barkley couldve gotten 100 million, i htink he wouldve been a better ball player and in the gym more often.

Guys like Rod Strickland and even Steve Francis would run circles around a lot of these point guards today.

All of your posts are nostalgic nonsense.

You are upset that the dunk contest isn't more creative? Well kind of hard to continue to evolve and create new things when the generation before already completed it all.

Some people really love to romanticize the past. The fact is, the physical training is vastly better. You have front offices that utilize analytics and create plans. You have video scouting, universal athletes rather than people who didn't even focus on just basketball until college. The game has evolved so much, there is no way the athletes of years ago would hold in today's league.

But at the same time, those advantages go both ways. If Kareem was born in 1995, he would have had a better diet and nutrition, scouting and been able to develop around the game today.


But there is no way that basketball was better 25 years ago. Not in terms of the pace, talent, and physical ability to compete. Hell, players alone are taller and weigh more on average. It just doesn't compare. But if you bring those guys from the 80's and 90's to today's game, they would also get those advantages.

I would think some of the dominant big men would be lost in today's game though with the development of the 3 point shot. Jordan would have likely developed a better 3 point shot in today's game, just like Bron has.

COOLbeans
05-30-2017, 09:46 PM
All of your posts are nostalgic nonsense.

You are upset that the dunk contest isn't more creative? Well kind of hard to continue to evolve and create new things when the generation before already completed it all.

Some people really love to romanticize the past. The fact is, the physical training is vastly better. You have front offices that utilize analytics and create plans. You have video scouting, universal athletes rather than people who didn't even focus on just basketball until college. The game has evolved so much, there is no way the athletes of years ago would hold in today's league.

But at the same time, those advantages go both ways. If Kareem was born in 1995, he would have had a better diet and nutrition, scouting and been able to develop around the game today.


But there is no way that basketball was better 25 years ago. Not in terms of the pace, talent, and physical ability to compete. Hell, players alone are taller and weigh more on average. It just doesn't compare. But if you bring those guys from the 80's and 90's to today's game, they would also get those advantages.

I would think some of the dominant big men would be lost in today's game though with the development of the 3 point shot. Jordan would have likely developed a better 3 point shot in today's game, just like Bron has.

Then why today does the league suck then? Those guys built the NBA. all the stars today are eating off the backs of those who lived and breatehd basketball playing for peanuts compared to the guys today. The only thing better today are the workouts, stadiums, facility amenities, diets, and AAU.

The guys of yesterday would take these young guys to school. Hence why some allstars are blessed to go to the Hakeem and Kobe schools of basketball greatness. There will never be another Hakeem, because the younger guys today just cant play like that.

Magic, Iverson, Payton, Jordan, Kidd, Stockton, Olajuwon etc. Those guys were innovators of basketball even though they came after all time greats. The only two players today that can claim innovative greatness are Lebron and Curry. Everyone else are a shadow and would get worked by those guys in their primes.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 10:33 PM
Then why today does the league suck then? Those guys built the NBA. all the stars today are eating off the backs of those who lived and breatehd basketball playing for peanuts compared to the guys today. The only thing better today are the workouts, stadiums, facility amenities, diets, and AAU.

The guys of yesterday would take these young guys to school. Hence why some allstars are blessed to go to the Hakeem and Kobe schools of basketball greatness. There will never be another Hakeem, because the younger guys today just cant play like that.

Magic, Iverson, Payton, Jordan, Kidd, Stockton, Olajuwon etc. Those guys were innovators of basketball even though they came after all time greats. The only two players today that can claim innovative greatness are Lebron and Curry. Everyone else are a shadow and would get worked by those guys in their primes.

It sucks because the stars aren't as fun. Doesn't mean the game is weaker. I enjoyed and love the NBA of the 80's and 90's (I remember the 90's better than the 80's though). The personalities in the game today just suck in comparison. Plus, team ball is more of a focal point than it ever was (except for a handful of players).

nastynice
05-30-2017, 11:46 PM
It sucks because the stars aren't as fun. Doesn't mean the game is weaker. I enjoyed and love the NBA of the 80's and 90's (I remember the 90's better than the 80's though). The personalities in the game today just suck in comparison. Plus, team ball is more of a focal point than it ever was (except for a handful of players).

Stars aren't as fun cuz it rubs people the wrong way. You know how much trash Jordan and shaq used to do on the court? All day. Now if Curry shoots a 3 and while in midair turns around or stares at someone, half nba fans start whining and complaining about it.

Stars aren't fun cuz people don't want stars to be fun.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 11:50 PM
Stars aren't as fun cuz it rubs people the wrong way. You know how much trash Jordan and shaq used to do on the court? All day. Now if Curry shoots a 3 and while in midair turns around or stares at someone, half nba fans start whining and complaining about it.

Stars aren't fun cuz people don't want stars to be fun.

I don't disagree

Mr.B
05-31-2017, 01:28 AM
Stars aren't as fun cuz it rubs people the wrong way. You know how much trash Jordan and shaq used to do on the court? All day. Now if Curry shoots a 3 and while in midair turns around or stares at someone, half nba fans start whining and complaining about it.

Stars aren't fun cuz people don't want stars to be fun.

Good point. The pussification of America has invaded the NBA. Wouldn't want to hurt anyone's "feelings".

nastynice
05-31-2017, 02:06 AM
Yup. My homie played against Jordan when he was about 10 or so, bro, Jordan was out there swatting mofos, lil kids, and straight up talking trash. Telling them get that weak **** outta here and they ain't got **** on him.

Could you imagine what type of heart attack people would have if lebron did that and it was caught on video? lmao, people would put him on a cross

More-Than-Most
05-31-2017, 07:30 AM
well if you go by what SAS says on first take its because the NBA is black and blacks are frowned upon whenever there is any altercation at all everyone overreacts.

FOXHOUND
05-31-2017, 09:34 AM
Good point. The pussification of America has invaded the NBA. Wouldn't want to hurt anyone's "feelings".

NBA personalities now are relegated to LeBron and co wanting to remake Space Jam, State Farm commercials and ads about chocolate milk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MGX0h7eNhU

There's Chris Rock as Lil Penny, alluding to having sex with Tyra Banks haha. Imagine that now?

On that note;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7EJQZFWgR4

Blake Griffin is awesome, at least.

Jeffy25
05-31-2017, 09:38 AM
NBA personalities now are relegated to LeBron and co wanting to remake Space Jam, State Farm commercials and ads about chocolate milk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MGX0h7eNhU

There's Chris Rock as Lil Penny, alluding to having sex with Tyra Banks haha. Imagine that now?

On that note;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7EJQZFWgR4

Blake Griffin is awesome, at least.

Yeah, the marketing is way worse. And you certainly can't behave like this any longer, it offends too many people.

I saw an old ad for Cardinals tickets as Ozzie Smith and Willie McGee dressed as old geezers in a barbershop. They were using borderline racially charged slurs/slang and being funny and just cutting up talking about these 'young cardinal runners'. And it was funny, and light, and both players looked like they were enjoying it. But that's not appropriate any longer.

Eh, I'm rambling, but the personalities aren't as fun as they used to be.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 09:42 AM
Stars aren't as fun cuz it rubs people the wrong way. You know how much trash Jordan and shaq used to do on the court? All day. Now if Curry shoots a 3 and while in midair turns around or stares at someone, half nba fans start whining and complaining about it.

Stars aren't fun cuz people don't want stars to be fun.

I think athletes are SO in our face now with media, commercials, adds, they make so much money, people just get annoyed watching some of it. And yeah, we are getting to be bigger whiners by the year haha, that may have something to do with it

Hawkeye15
05-31-2017, 09:42 AM
Yeah, the marketing is way worse. And you certainly can't behave like this any longer, it offends too many people.

I saw an old ad for Cardinals tickets as Ozzie Smith and Willie McGee dressed as old geezers in a barbershop. They were using borderline racially charged slurs/slang and being funny and just cutting up talking about these 'young cardinal runners'. And it was funny, and light, and both players looked like they were enjoying it. But that's not appropriate any longer.

Eh, I'm rambling, but the personalities aren't as fun as they used to be.

you can't be, or some (or many) special interest groups will get a hard on and make a big deal out of something you said/did.

effen5
05-31-2017, 11:50 AM
Yup. My homie played against Jordan when he was about 10 or so, bro, Jordan was out there swatting mofos, lil kids, and straight up talking trash. Telling them get that weak **** outta here and they ain't got **** on him.

Could you imagine what type of heart attack people would have if lebron did that and it was caught on video? lmao, people would put him on a cross

Jordan still does that and hes 50

nastynice
05-31-2017, 02:34 PM
Jordan still does that and hes 50

Haha, I know. I wanna cross paths with him so bad, I'd talk so much **** to him. I feel like I'd be able to get him to play me one on one, lol

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 09:34 PM
Still behind him. I can't get the 2011 out of my head and although he'll have beaten an insane Warriors team back-to-back, I think a threepeat against Warriors would be it for me. If he does that, he's above MJ.

Why? MJ would have done that and
Would not have let 11 happen

bklynny67
06-01-2017, 10:16 PM
We can all stop making these threads every time LeBron is in another playoff series. He will never surpass Michael based on the need for him to orchestrate super teams with two other superstar players in order to win, then when he realizes those two are on decline and nearing the end, he makes sure he joins two younger stars to keep winning.

Oh, and the other reason is he's not even close to as clutch as Michael was in these big games.

Not. Even. Close.

Jeffy25
06-01-2017, 10:23 PM
We can all stop making these threads every time LeBron is in another playoff series. He will never surpass Michael based on the need for him to orchestrate super teams with two other superstar players in order to win

Ever think he joined a super team because he also has to face other super teams? Miami wasn't the first super team.

Jeffy25
06-01-2017, 10:24 PM
Why? MJ would have done that and
Would not have let 11 happen

Because Jordan wouldn't have beat these Warriors teams.

metswon69
06-01-2017, 10:33 PM
Because Jordan wouldn't have beat these Warriors teams.

Different eras so its hard to compare. If Jordan had played now with the rules the way they are, he might have averaged 40+ points a game and its not like MJ couldn't shoot the 3. There's no reason to believe MJ couldn't have augmented his game given how great an offensive talent he was. Not to mention those Bull's teams would have been constructed differently but still very good defensively with Rodman, Jordan and Pippen.

They would have been fun series to watch.

RB#20
06-01-2017, 10:51 PM
PSD's NBA forum, where "Klay Thompson and Draymond Green aren't even top 30 players in the league" happens.

Sadly, not the most ridiculous thing that's been said on this forum.

bklynny67
06-01-2017, 10:52 PM
We can all stop making these threads every time LeBron is in another playoff series. He will never surpass Michael based on the need for him to orchestrate super teams with two other superstar players in order to win

Ever think he joined a super team because he also has to face other super teams? Miami wasn't the first super team.
LOL no. That most certainly was not the reason. What other superteam had that many star players conspire with each other to join up before they did?

kdspurman
06-01-2017, 10:53 PM
Different eras so its hard to compare. If Jordan had played now with the rules the way they are, he might have averaged 40+ points a game and its not like MJ couldn't shoot the 3. There's no reason to believe MJ couldn't have augmented his game given how great an offensive talent he was. Not to mention those Bull's teams would have been constructed differently but still very good defensively with Rodman, Jordan and Pippen.

They would have been fun series to watch.

No doubt. his insane work ethic and the ability to want to prove people wrong, for sure he wouldve adjusted his game anyway possible. His mentality in that respect is just on another level.

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 10:58 PM
Because Jordan wouldn't have beat these Warriors teams.

Jordan only ever lost to teams with three or five hall of famers in full seasons with the Bulls save his rookie year .. and in those losses he was the only Bull presently playing at a hall of fame level.

But, Jordan never did lose to a team with fewer hall of famers where he averaged 18 PPG...

Mr.B
06-01-2017, 10:58 PM
Why? MJ would have done that and
Would not have let 11 happen

Actually MJ did it twice and still wouldn't have lost to the Mavs.

RB#20
06-01-2017, 10:58 PM
Because Jordan wouldn't have beat these Warriors teams.

lol

Mr.B
06-01-2017, 10:59 PM
Because Jordan wouldn't have beat these Warriors teams.

If they were playing by the rules that Jordan's teams played under they would smoked this Warriors teams.

RB#20
06-01-2017, 11:01 PM
Jordan only ever lost to teams with three or five hall of famers in full seasons with the Bulls save his rookie year .. and in those losses he was the only Bull presently playing at a hall of fame level.

But, Jordan never did lose to a team with fewer hall of famers where he averaged 18 PPG...

18PPG then was also not the same as 18PPG now. Back then those were the hardest 18 points you were ever going to come across.

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 11:01 PM
Actually MJ did it twice and still wouldn't have lost to the Mavs.

I also think history will show the warriors to be overrated ... they are in a league with Lebron and a bunch of overmarketed dung

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 11:04 PM
LOL no. That most certainly was not the reason. What other superteam had that many star players conspire with each other to join up before they did?

Come on man give it to Jeffy man.. Jordan would have obviously needed to join a super team to beat Dirk and a bunch of dudes.. oh wait, Lebron didn't beat Dirk and a dudes.

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 11:17 PM
18PPG then was also not the same as 18PPG now. Back then those were the hardest 18 points you were ever going to come across.

Lebron/modern fans don't want to see this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0z_BBdUETkA

8:16 - Jordan goes to the basket.. Isaiah Thomas comes over his back and grabs the ball with two hands to rip it with a clotheslining neck grabbing motion. But watch closely.. Rodman actually sneaks a rabbit punch in on Jordan

The refs? Call a regular foul

The announcers? talk about how isiah was .. and you can't make this up "going for the jump ball." They never mention Rodman...

joedaheights
06-01-2017, 11:20 PM
I just want one Lebron fan to actually tell me in their response that they watched from 8:16-8:50

papipapsmanny
06-01-2017, 11:25 PM
I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably compare those Jazz teams to the current Clippers. Especially if you bother to look up the teams the Jazz were beating before losing to the Bulls.