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View Full Version : Charles Barkley: LeBron will surpass Kobe if he beats Warriors in the Finals.



akagiredsuns
05-23-2017, 11:52 AM
Hey guys no sources. I was watching ESPN First Take and it was a topic between Stephen A. Smith and Max Kellerman. They were discussing this. I didn't see a thread on this but if there is one mods please merge. Otherwise, guys what do you think? Does LeBron surpass Kobe with a Finals win? I personally disagree. Thoughts?

t_money25
05-23-2017, 12:01 PM
He already has passed him IMO

Hawkeye15
05-23-2017, 12:04 PM
he blew by Kobe a couple years ago.

Ask Chuck when LeBron blew by Barkley

da ThRONe
05-23-2017, 12:09 PM
It just seems like some people love to hold the next group of players to a higher standard out of some weird spite. As mentioned he's past Bryant already.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:14 PM
. Beat the 73-9 Warriors AND a better and more stacked version? That might be 2 of the top 3 teams in NBA history (alongside 72-10 Jordan Bulls) and that only gets you past Kobe? Come on now.

Lol he might pass Jordan if he beat that Warriors team

Big Zo
05-23-2017, 02:12 PM
Barkley says a lot of things...

mrblisterdundee
05-23-2017, 02:19 PM
Chuck's a bit late to the game, considering how many people already have LeBron in the top-two or -three best-ever conversation.

Quinnsanity
05-23-2017, 02:21 PM
Seriously, when exactly did LeBron pass Kobe? I'd probably say the first championship. At that point we knew he was a better individual player, but the clutch stuff was still such an issue that he couldn't be ranked that highly. Once that problem was solved, I'd say it was pretty clear that LeBron was ahead of Kobe.

BKLYNpigeon
05-23-2017, 03:21 PM
Why does it matter who's better ?

europagnpilgrim
05-23-2017, 03:58 PM
. Beat the 73-9 Warriors AND a better and more stacked version? That might be 2 of the top 3 teams in NBA history (alongside 72-10 Jordan Bulls) and that only gets you past Kobe? Come on now.

Lol he might pass Jordan if he beat that Warriors team

where does he fall to if he doesn't beat the Warriors?

More-Than-Most
05-23-2017, 04:18 PM
Not shocking at all considering who is saying it... fun note he goes by championships but ignores the fact that he has 0 when arguing himself up... Lebron passed kobe years ago... whoever doesnt have lebron top 5 should just watch soccer or something because you either allow hate to cloud your judgement or you allowed hate to cloud your judgement.

TrueFan420
05-23-2017, 04:40 PM
lol at chuck... he already passed Kobe

TrueFan420
05-23-2017, 04:41 PM
Why does it matter who's better ?

human nature and this is a basketball forum

smith&wesson
05-23-2017, 05:57 PM
BOLD: if the Cavs beat this historically stacked Warriors team, do you put Lebron on Jordan level... that should be the real question. with a poll.

I would say yes.

GREATNESS ONE
05-23-2017, 06:18 PM
I agree, Sir Charles.

Teeboy1487
05-23-2017, 06:35 PM
Lebron surpassed Kobe in my eyes last year. Beating the Warriors last year sealed it. However, I don't care. Sometimes this forum get so wrapped up in this Kobe vs Lebron argument. I honestly don't know why Barkley brought it up. As a Lakers fan, I'm still wishing one of our players can turn out even half as good as Kobe was at this point. Sick of the losing.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 06:38 PM
where does he fall to if he doesn't beat the Warriors?

Aroubd the same. It would take a miracle for the Cavs to win

europagnpilgrim
05-23-2017, 06:40 PM
Who would you draft to build a franchise around starting from scratch?

that's how you know who is who and what is what

case closed

LBJ and i wouldn't even think for a tenth of a second about

GREATNESS ONE
05-23-2017, 06:51 PM
Who would you draft to build a franchise around starting from scratch?

that's how you know who is who and what is what

case closed

LBJ and i wouldn't even think for a tenth of a second about

I'll take Kobe. Lebron will leave as soon as it gets tough and go form his multiple Super Teams.

More-Than-Most
05-23-2017, 07:45 PM
I'll take Kobe. Lebron will leave as soon as it gets tough and go form his multiple Super Teams.

Kobe doesnt wait for it to get tough... he forces his way to a team that is stacked so he doesnt have to go through an impossible road like lebron did... then after the winning stops kobe demands a trade from the team unless they steal paul gasol in his prime etc etc etc..... then when he starts his decline he forces the front office to get dwight howard/steve Nash that hurts the team for years while forcing a force of nature off the team because he wants all the credit.....

I love the kobe work ethic but starting a team from scratch kobe is far from someone a smart team would take because the losing will eat at him and he will bail the first chance he gets like he threatened to do with the lakers after Shaq left.

Bostonjorge
05-23-2017, 07:57 PM
Like I said many times. I'm not the only one who has Kobe ahead of James. Fact is many people, basketball players, coaches, GM's and many great basketball minds also have Kobe ahead of James. We know Kobe had Shaq for the first 3 rings. I just don't get Shaq dominating more then James ever did is a knock on only Kobe? Makes zero sense to me.

Barkley must look at everything basketball related not just what makes his guy look the best. James playing in the weakest conference ever(no debate it's the weakest ever) and not getting 1st every year when your team has all the advantages drops you in the rankings. Barkley don't brush it off like others do. Getting inflated stats against weak competition is also not ignored.

We don't pretend that James can carry anyone just because he did it one time. One time didn't mean anything when he also couldn't get it done when he had more help then his competition. We cant forget when James made a fool of himself and Miami against the Spurs. Like most people, Barkley didn't see anything but a really good and old team. Not the BEST team we ever seen. To give James yet another pass.

So when Barkley ranks James he just gives him no passes. Without those passes we give James now how is he ranked higher then Kobe?

FOXHOUND
05-23-2017, 08:14 PM
Why does it matter who's better ?

The debates will go on till the end of time with no real answer lol. Everyone has their opinion though, and it can be fun to debate when people are respectful about it.

Quinnsanity
05-23-2017, 08:58 PM
I'll take Kobe. Lebron will leave as soon as it gets tough and go form his multiple Super Teams.

Remember when Kobe demanded a trade and only relented when his team stole Pau Gasol?

GREATNESS ONE
05-23-2017, 09:00 PM
Remember when Kobe demanded a trade and only relented when his team stole Pau Gasol?

I laugh when people say that was an unfair trade, can we have Marc Gasol back please?

GREATNESS ONE
05-23-2017, 09:01 PM
Kobe doesnt wait for it to get tough... he forces his way to a team that is stacked so he doesnt have to go through an impossible road like lebron did... then after the winning stops kobe demands a trade from the team unless they steal paul gasol in his prime etc etc etc..... then when he starts his decline he forces the front office to get dwight howard/steve Nash that hurts the team for years while forcing a force of nature off the team because he wants all the credit.....

I love the kobe work ethic but starting a team from scratch kobe is far from someone a smart team would take because the losing will eat at him and he will bail the first chance he gets like he threatened to do with the lakers after Shaq left.

Lolololololololol ok.

Bostonjorge
05-23-2017, 09:05 PM
Remember when Kobe demanded a trade and only relented when his team stole Pau Gasol?

You remember when Phill coached Kobe? Phill use to use the media to his advantage as well. Like when Phill said that Kobe can ask for a trade if he's not happy. Obviously they weren't going to trade him. The same way Kobe would not waive his no trade clause. It just gets results. Zen master.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 09:37 PM
Aroubd the same. It would take a miracle for the Cavs to win

But if he plays like trash it will still hurt.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 10:50 PM
barkley's mood changes depending on how cooked his steak is.

Bostonjorge
05-23-2017, 10:52 PM
Lebron is not even better then Irving

Jeffy25
05-23-2017, 10:52 PM
He passed Kobe a few years ago, if he/Cavs can beat the Warriors this year, you have to put him next to Jordan, possibly above Jordan.

Jordan never faced a team like this. It would be like the Lakers adding Bird in the middle of the 80's and asking prime Jordan to beat them.

LA_Raiders
05-23-2017, 10:59 PM
No, LeBron engineers his teams; he needs 2 all stars (top 5 players at their position) for him to win. LeFlop is no Kobe...

WaDe03
05-23-2017, 11:06 PM
Lmao LeBron is far better than Kobe. Only Kobe fans or the uneducated think otherwise.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:26 PM
Worth noting Chuck thinks Oscar Robertson is a top five player...

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-23-2017, 11:33 PM
He passed Kobe in like, 2013.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 11:42 PM
I really hate how it's like out of the discussion in regards to Kobe being better than LeBron and some nutcase brings it back up. There really isn't anything Kobe has done that LeBron hasn't done. It would have been a travesty if Kobe didn't win three rings with THAT Shaq. I could have won at least two just showing up to the game and making sure Shaq woke up for the game. The ring argument is contextually debunked and there isn't one statistical category Kobe beats LeBron in other than like FT %...

Bostonjorge
05-23-2017, 11:53 PM
I really hate how it's like out of the discussion in regards to Kobe being better than LeBron and some nutcase brings it back up. There really isn't anything Kobe has done that LeBron hasn't done. It would have been a travesty if Kobe didn't win three rings with THAT Shaq. I could have won at least two just showing up to the game and making sure Shaq woke up for the game. The ring argument is contextually debunked and there isn't one statistical category Kobe beats LeBron in other than like FT %...

Shaq was dominant but Kobe always led the lakers past the real finals against the Spurs. So Kobe greatness was still felt.

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 12:02 AM
Shaq was dominant but Kobe always led the lakers past the real finals against the Spurs. So Kobe greatness was still felt.

Kobe's great but Shaq was the best player in the NBA and it wasn't really close. Does LeBron and a prime Shaq win three rings? I mean, let's be honest here.

LOb0
05-24-2017, 12:10 AM
Kobe's great but Shaq was the best player in the NBA and it wasn't really close. Does LeBron and a prime Shaq win three rings? I mean, let's be honest here.

Lol...how many straight titles is that.

Jeffy25
05-24-2017, 12:19 AM
No, LeBron engineers his teams; he needs 2 all stars (top 5 players at their position) for him to win. LeFlop is no Kobe...

Kobe had the same thing, that's such a tired argument.

Gasol and Bynum
Shaq alone, sheesh.

Kobe played with incredible teams.

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 12:43 AM
Worth noting Chuck thinks Oscar Robertson is a top five player...

That could be a legit debate especially from the Barkley era and prior players, Big O averaged basically a triple double during a 6-7 stretch(his first 5 seasons avg out to a triple dub) where as in the past few years a triple double is highly celebrated and more years ago it was looked at as something super extraordinary, Big O is definitely in my circle of 20-25 best ever

Dr J and others probably has him In his top 5 as well, its an opinion and nothing factual, just as where you have your players ranked is nothing of fact, regardless how many sheeps may follow/agree with it

you make it seem like Chuck said K Johnson or J Worthy was a top 5 player when he clearly named a legit candidate, not taking nothing away from Johnson/Worthy but they are not in the class of Big O

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 12:49 AM
Kobe had the same thing, that's such a tired argument.

Gasol and Bynum
Shaq alone, sheesh.

Kobe played with incredible teams.

Very true, and he did it from the draft like Magic did, they both wanted LA

People seem to forget all the title winning teams outside of a couple or three had stacked/talented teams, not everyone can carry a team to a Finals trip like a Dream/Bron/AI/Dirk did and win, Dream/Dirk did win but the other players stepped up and hit big shots and made plays when it mattered as well during its title run(s), even that Detroit team had like 3 lottery picks with Billups/Rip/Sheed and a multi DPOY with the best coach ever(to me)

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 12:51 AM
He passed Kobe in like, 2013.

More like 2004, only thing Kobe had on him was seniority/experience, but since both came straight from HS it was obvious who I would draft first to build a team around, easily LBJ

GREATNESS ONE
05-24-2017, 02:29 AM
Shaq was dominant but Kobe always led the lakers past the real finals against the Spurs. So Kobe greatness was still felt.

Bro, it's almost pointless, Kobe was garbage, a chucker who got lucky to win so much. His 5 titles to these guys are more like 2 1/2 titles :laugh2:


It's almost ridiculous but still entertaining.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-24-2017, 05:06 AM
No, LeBron engineers his teams; he needs 2 all stars (top 5 players at their position) for him to win. LeFlop is no Kobe...

Why do people punish players for trying to obtain what other players were given to begin with?

Everyone understands that your legacy and accomplishments in the league is heavily based on other people. Yet everyone wants to be so high and mighty about Lebron going to the Cavs saying he should have gone through the hardship instead of leaving. He left as a free agent after the Cavs failed to give him what he thought he needed to win (and what he needed isn't any less than what other players have started off with in their career). He had no obligations to the Cavs as a FA and had every right to leave if he didn't think the situation was great.

You know yourself you would rank Lebron lower if he had 0 rings instead of 3 rings. Yet you want to punish him because the Cavs couldn't give him what players like Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Russell, Bird, etc had for most of their careers? If he stayed in Cleveland, you know he'd probably have 0 rings and you'd be the first one to rip him apart that he never won a title.

Yea, because players should really to through the hardship, cost themselves dozens of opportunities that would have allowed them to obtain success, just so they can please someone who wouldn't go through the same situation.

:rolleyes:

PowerHouse
05-24-2017, 08:12 AM
where does he fall to if he doesn't beat the Warriors?

This is what is most interesting to me. Obviously he rises on lists with another ring but how far does he plummet with a 5th Finals flop? Cuz you know he will drop on some people's lists.

PowerHouse
05-24-2017, 08:15 AM
Kobe had the same thing, that's such a tired argument.

Gasol and Bynum
Shaq alone, sheesh.

Kobe played with incredible teams.

Bynum?

That dude was held together with bandages for all the years with Kobe except for one, and that was not a title year.

MarkieMark48
05-24-2017, 08:31 AM
Like I said many times. I'm not the only one who has Kobe ahead of James. Fact is many people, basketball players, coaches, GM's and many great basketball minds also have Kobe ahead of James. We know Kobe had Shaq for the first 3 rings. I just don't get Shaq dominating more then James ever did is a knock on only Kobe? Makes zero sense to me.

Barkley must look at everything basketball related not just what makes his guy look the best. James playing in the weakest conference ever(no debate it's the weakest ever) and not getting 1st every year when your team has all the advantages drops you in the rankings. Barkley don't brush it off like others do. Getting inflated stats against weak competition is also not ignored.

We don't pretend that James can carry anyone just because he did it one time. One time didn't mean anything when he also couldn't get it done when he had more help then his competition. We cant forget when James made a fool of himself and Miami against the Spurs. Like most people, Barkley didn't see anything but a really good and old team. Not the BEST team we ever seen. To give James yet another pass.

So when Barkley ranks James he just gives him no passes. Without those passes we give James now how is he ranked higher then Kobe?

Check the West in the 80's when the Lakers were running through everyone... the east now, and the west then are certainly comparable.

Durant coulda came east, LA coulda came east....ect, Its not Lebrons fault no Free Agents want to come east. (or is it?)

I think Lebron clearly passed Kobe with his finals MVP last year

goingfor28
05-24-2017, 08:58 AM
Hes already wayyyyy passed Colby

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 09:35 AM
Shaq was dominant but Kobe always led the lakers past the real finals against the Spurs. So Kobe greatness was still felt.

totally. Like when they rode Kobe and his 15 ppg on 37% shooting to a 4-2 win over the Pacers in the 2000 Finals.

Oh wait, Shaq's 38/17 might have had an impact....


Kobe was a terrific player. Top 10-12 due to being a top 5 player for years, and longevity, along with scoring prowess. But he is not one of the top tier talents the game has seen. LeBron absolutely is.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 09:38 AM
This is what is most interesting to me. Obviously he rises on lists with another ring but how far does he plummet with a 5th Finals flop? Cuz you know he will drop on some people's lists.

I am not sure a guy can drop on all time lists, until someone better bumps them. Don't you have to reach certain achievements to get to a certain ranking? Can't take those away....

Unless you make the mistake of ranking player on speculation or projections, in which case, sure, you can drop.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 09:40 AM
Check the West in the 80's when the Lakers were running through everyone... the east now, and the west then are certainly comparable.

Durant coulda came east, LA coulda came east....ect, Its not Lebrons fault no Free Agents want to come east. (or is it?)

I think Lebron clearly passed Kobe with his finals MVP last year

west might have been worse. Seriously, the Lakers lost to a sub .500 team during the Magic era in the playoffs, and had years where they barely ran into a winning team until late in the playoffs.

But yeah, I love Laker fans trying to downgrade LeBron for playing in the east. By that rational, better be crushing Magic..

WaDe03
05-24-2017, 10:16 AM
Bro, it's almost pointless, Kobe was garbage, a chucker who got lucky to win so much. His 5 titles to these guys are more like 2 1/2 titles :laugh2:


It's almost ridiculous but still entertaining.

I count his 5 titles he's just not better or in an even playing field as LeBron. It is what it is and LeBron is the clear cut better player.

WaDe03
05-24-2017, 10:18 AM
Kobes lucky big injuries took away key moments of Wades prime or he'd be behind LeBron Wade and Duncan for this last generation.

lol, please
05-24-2017, 11:02 AM
I'll take Kobe. Lebron will leave as soon as it gets tough and go form his multiple Super Teams.

Good post. Well said.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 11:26 AM
Good post. Well said.

what does that say about your boy KD?

If you truthfully believe that nonsense anyways

MarkieMark48
05-24-2017, 11:33 AM
west might have been worse. Seriously, the Lakers lost to a sub .500 team during the Magic era in the playoffs, and had years where they barely ran into a winning team until late in the playoffs.

But yeah, I love Laker fans trying to downgrade LeBron for playing in the east. By that rational, better be crushing Magic..

Dude said "James playing in the weakest conference ever(no debate it's the weakest ever)"

I cant say my opinion on which one was better or weaker without a lot of research which I certainly don't feel like doing, but its certainly debatable

ManRam
05-24-2017, 11:39 AM
Obviously most agree that Bron already is the superior player, but upsetting the Warriors makes it inarguable that LeBron was the superior player. Like, pure facts.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 11:48 AM
Dude said "James playing in the weakest conference ever(no debate it's the weakest ever)"

I cant say my opinion on which one was better or weaker without a lot of research which I certainly don't feel like doing, but its certainly debatable

I've done the research. Others should too. The west in the 80's was one great team, a few really good teams here and there over the decade, a lot of mediocre, and a lot of garbage. I mean seriously, there was a year where the Lakers played 3 teams that combined to be 7 games under .500 in the ENTIRE west playoffs.

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 12:04 PM
When did Kobe ever even beat a team like the Warriors? Kobe struggled against the Celtics in 2010 and he had more help than LeBron ever had in the Cavs pre-Miami. Lakers Finals was in the WC but then you guys NEVER use that same argument for why his Finals record is 5-2 and not worse. East was terrible during that Lakers threepeat and it wasn't until the Pistons started getting really good that it became worth mentioning. Before that, it was a foregone conclusion. I didn't even think this was still a debate. I think Barkley is just having too much fun taking shots at people because he's the same guy that said LeBron can "surpass" Jordan but then says LeBron can't be top five no matter what he does.. yet he has the Big O in his top five?

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 12:05 PM
This is what is most interesting to me. Obviously he rises on lists with another ring but how far does he plummet with a 5th Finals flop? Cuz you know he will drop on some people's lists.

How many of those Finals losses were actually because he legitimately lost? Outside of the Mavs series, they were just a better team.

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 12:50 PM
I am not sure a guy can drop on all time lists, until someone better bumps them. Don't you have to reach certain achievements to get to a certain ranking? Can't take those away....

Unless you make the mistake of ranking player on speculation or projections, in which case, sure, you can drop.

so winning titles shouldn't push them up if losing on the big stage doesn't push them down, I always say we should judge a player on impact/ game/attributes they bring to the table, because if Lebron or whoever doesn't drop for losing then they damn sure shouldn't be rewarded and pushed for winning titles, it has to work hand in hand and not separated like you are implying, I would say winning the nba mvp would hold more weight to judging a player than a nba title since we are basically judging individual players in a team sport


Lebron would get drafted by me over Bird and Magic regardless of the rings/accomplishments, he can carry a load overall better given from what I have watched from those players

if Jordan had gone 1-5/0-6 in Finals would you still have him as GOAT or would you hold him having a losing Finals record against him going higher in your rankings? or would you just base it on the criteria I said I judge players on? Jordan would still be one of the best dominant players ever but the 6 rings seem to juice up his GOAT resume

aman_13
05-24-2017, 12:58 PM
Barkley was hilarious last night. Sometimes I think he actually dislikes Shaq but I think they are kidding around. It got serious last night tho.

MarkieMark48
05-24-2017, 01:02 PM
so winning titles shouldn't push them up if losing on the big stage doesn't push them down, I always say we should judge a player on impact/ game/attributes they bring to the table, because if Lebron or whoever doesn't drop for losing then they damn sure shouldn't be rewarded and pushed for winning titles, it has to work hand in hand and not separated like you are implying, I would say winning the nba mvp would hold more weight to judging a player than a nba title since we are basically judging individual players in a team sport


Lebron would get drafted by me over Bird and Magic regardless of the rings/accomplishments, he can carry a load overall better given from what I have watched from those players

if Jordan had gone 1-5/0-6 in Finals would you still have him as GOAT or would you hold him having a losing Finals record against him going higher in your rankings? or would you just base it on the criteria I said I judge players on? Jordan would still be one of the best dominant players ever but the 6 rings seem to juice up his GOAT resume

If Lebron has lost in the eastern conference finals those years he lost in the NBA finals would you move him up your rankings based on his new record of 3-0 in the NBA finals?

L8kers4life
05-24-2017, 01:45 PM
Kobe doesnt wait for it to get tough... he forces his way to a team that is stacked so he doesnt have to go through an impossible road like lebron did... then after the winning stops kobe demands a trade from the team unless they steal paul gasol in his prime etc etc etc..... then when he starts his decline he forces the front office to get dwight howard/steve Nash that hurts the team for years while forcing a force of nature off the team because he wants all the credit.....

I love the kobe work ethic but starting a team from scratch kobe is far from someone a smart team would take because the losing will eat at him and he will bail the first chance he gets like he threatened to do with the lakers after Shaq left.

Lebron has certainly passed Kobe, but just because Kobe threatens to leave to get his front office to make moves,,doesn't mean he leaves whenever he feels necessary. If you started a team friend m scratch and you were going to have 1 player for 20 years, proof is in the pudding, when the going gets rough Kobe doesn't join a super team.

Also as great as LeBron is he will be 3-5 in the finals after this year and he was the GM of every team he was on in the historically weak eastern conference. Say what you want about LeBron, in the west he does not go to 7 straight finals, sorry would never happen.

Saddletramp
05-24-2017, 01:46 PM
Kobe doesnt wait for it to get tough... he forces his way to a team that is stacked so he doesnt have to go through an impossible road like lebron did... then after the winning stops kobe demands a trade from the team unless they steal paul gasol in his prime etc etc etc..... then when he starts his decline he forces the front office to get dwight howard/steve Nash that hurts the team for years while forcing a force of nature off the team because he wants all the credit.....

I love the kobe work ethic but starting a team from scratch kobe is far from someone a smart team would take because the losing will eat at him and he will bail the first chance he gets like he threatened to do with the lakers after Shaq left.

Exactly.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 02:01 PM
so winning titles shouldn't push them up if losing on the big stage doesn't push them down, I always say we should judge a player on impact/ game/attributes they bring to the table, because if Lebron or whoever doesn't drop for losing then they damn sure shouldn't be rewarded and pushed for winning titles, it has to work hand in hand and not separated like you are implying, I would say winning the nba mvp would hold more weight to judging a player than a nba title since we are basically judging individual players in a team sport


Lebron would get drafted by me over Bird and Magic regardless of the rings/accomplishments, he can carry a load overall better given from what I have watched from those players

if Jordan had gone 1-5/0-6 in Finals would you still have him as GOAT or would you hold him having a losing Finals record against him going higher in your rankings? or would you just base it on the criteria I said I judge players on? Jordan would still be one of the best dominant players ever but the 6 rings seem to juice up his GOAT resume

Everyone ranks/judges differently. At this point, unless LeBron just pulls no-shows or starts being a player he never has been, can't wipe away all the numbers, awards, accolades, all NBA teams, finals MVP's, titles, etc.

If we ranked players that way, they would be at their all time highest at age 30 (roughly), and everyone would slide back down the rankings as they declined. That doesn't really make sense, does it?

If Jordan would have gone 1-5/0-6, well, he wouldn't have been the same Jordan we have ranked where we have him, would he?

Once a player gets enough to justify a ranking, he is set until someone knocks him off for me. Can you think of a player who slid down after reaching a certain spot, outside another player knocking them out of position? I can't.

PowerHouse
05-24-2017, 02:57 PM
If Lebron has lost in the eastern conference finals those years he lost in the NBA finals would you move him up your rankings based on his new record of 3-0 in the NBA finals?
.

MarkieMark48
05-24-2017, 02:58 PM
Lebron has certainly passed Kobe, but just because Kobe threatens to leave to get his front office to make moves,,doesn't mean he leaves whenever he feels necessary. If you started a team friend m scratch and you were going to have 1 player for 20 years, proof is in the pudding, when the going gets rough Kobe doesn't join a super team.

Also as great as LeBron is he will be 3-5 in the finals after this year and he was the GM of every team he was on in the historically weak eastern conference. Say what you want about LeBron, in the west he does not go to 7 straight finals, sorry would never happen.

If Lebron goes to a western team instead of going to Miami, he doesn't go to seven straight finals ill agree, but the finals he does make, he more than likely wins, ... so if you use the finals record angle to dimish Lebron's career, he would move up in your rankings being 3-0/4-0 (whatever-0) in the finals instead of 3-4 or as you saw he will be 3-5... correct?

MarkieMark48
05-24-2017, 03:00 PM
Interesting take but I would have him ranked lower if that had happened.

He was on a "super team" in Miami that was supposed to steamroll to like 7 rings in a row like Lebron inaccurately predicted. It would have been laughable if he lost to those weak Indiana teams or that old Celtics team of 2012.

but that finals record though!!!! It seems like losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals because everyone keeps bringing up Lebron's record

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 03:54 PM
My prediction: LeBron has a better team in the West. If you conclude it by saying the West is better, by default, LeBron's team would be better. He wouldn't be stuck in that stupid EC team and have wasted 7 seasons. He probably won't make it to that many NBA Finals but he would have probably been undefeated in the Finals. I would say he would be 4 or 5-0 in the West. Think about it. Do you really think a LeBron-led team in the West with more jacked up talent wouldn't take out the West and make the Finals, too? And then, it's a foregone conclusion. At the very least, he makes it to four NBA Finals. Assuming whoever makes it out of the East, who beats LeBron? The Boston Celtics would have been the team in the NBA Finals. The Pacers. The Bulls. So you can't have it both ways.

FOXHOUND
05-24-2017, 04:06 PM
but that finals record though!!!! It seems like losing before the finals is better than losing in the finals because everyone keeps bringing up Lebron's record

Kareem was 6-4 in the Finals. Magic was 5-4 in the Finals. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals. Shaq was 4-2 in the Finals.

There are some people obsessed with the basic number of Finals record, but the context in itself is what matters. Just like people shouldn't rave about how many times LeBron made the Finals in a row with stacked teams in the pathetic east, other people should be smart enough to realize that in 2007, 2011 and 2014 he doesn't get there to begin with if he's in the west.

Getting to the Finals is always better than not doing so, unless you're beating pathetically weak competition to do so.

Bostonjorge
05-24-2017, 04:08 PM
My prediction: LeBron has a better team in the West. If you conclude it by saying the West is better, by default, LeBron's team would be better. He wouldn't be stuck in that stupid EC team and have wasted 7 seasons. He probably won't make it to that many NBA Finals but he would have probably been undefeated in the Finals. I would say he would be 4 or 5-0 in the West. Think about it. Do you really think a LeBron-led team in the West with more jacked up talent wouldn't take out the West and make the Finals, too? And then, it's a foregone conclusion. At the very least, he makes it to four NBA Finals. Assuming whoever makes it out of the East, who beats LeBron? The Boston Celtics would have been the team in the NBA Finals. The Pacers. The Bulls. So you can't have it both ways.

Lebron would just be a Tracy Mcrady or Wade at best of in the west. He would have been eliminated over and over again by pop who completely mastered the art of defeating James in embarrassing fashion. We already seen and now know James can lose series even when he has a stacked team and playing lesser teams.

So even if James gets more help it don't mean anything when he still loses with incredible help. I'm sure he could be led past the Spurs but no way lead a team past them. At best 1-0 in the finals for James.

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 04:09 PM
Kareem was 6-4 in the Finals. Magic was 5-4 in the Finals. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals. Shaq was 4-2 in the Finals.

There are some people obsessed with the basic number of Finals record, but the context in itself is what matters. Just like people shouldn't rave about how many times LeBron made the Finals in a row with stacked teams in the pathetic east, other people should be smart enough to realize that in 2007, 2011 and 2014 he doesn't get there to begin with if he's in the west.

Getting to the Finals is always better than not doing so, unless you're beating pathetically weak competition to do so.

LeBron gets a better team in the West. For seven seasons, he only made one NBA Finals whereas in a better West team, he would have made more NBA Finals and would have gotten a ring before ever having to go to Miami. You're not taking into account that he literally had no help for seven seasons and wasted his career whereas if he was in the West, the so called better teams, let's see how he'd do with some of the rosters like Nash or even Melo had during Denver.

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 04:10 PM
Lebron would just be a Tracy Mcrady or Wade at best of in the west. He would have been eliminated over and over again by pop who completely mastered the art of defeating James in embarrassing fashion. We already seen and now know James can lose series even when he has a stacked team and playing lesser teams.

So even if James gets more help it don't mean anything when he still loses with incredible help. I'm sure he could be led past the Spurs but no way lead a team past them. At best 1-0 in the finals for James.

Yes, and you will be added to my ignore list.

FOXHOUND
05-24-2017, 04:15 PM
LeBron gets a better team in the West. For seven seasons, he only made one NBA Finals whereas in a better West team, he would have made more NBA Finals and would have gotten a ring before ever having to go to Miami. You're not taking into account that he literally had no help for seven seasons and wasted his career whereas if he was in the West, the so called better teams, let's see how he'd do with some of the rosters like Nash or even Melo had during Denver.

But if LeBron is there, everything changes. Swapping Melo for LeBron doesn't make those Denver teams better than the Spurs or Lakers they lost to in 06-08. If he's in the west, the 2010 FA also likely doesn't happen either, because he's on a better team and winning right? So you're taking away a lot of his Finals and championships off the back end.

There's no need for hypothetical stuff with LeBron's career, we have 14-years of it as it is.

Bostonjorge
05-24-2017, 04:26 PM
LeBron gets a better team in the West. For seven seasons, he only made one NBA Finals whereas in a better West team, he would have made more NBA Finals and would have gotten a ring before ever having to go to Miami. You're not taking into account that he literally had no help for seven seasons and wasted his career whereas if he was in the West, the so called better teams, let's see how he'd do with some of the rosters like Nash or even Melo had during Denver.

You can put Kobe or a list of 15 players who could also win with the Suns old roster minus Nash. So that's not impressive at all. That old Denver roster minus Melo gets destroyed by Duncan/Spurs, Kobe/lakers, Yao/Rockets, Dirk/Mavericks.....

There is long list of premium talent that's was mostly out west during James first run in Cleveland. Every James fan should thank the basketball gods that James only got embarrassed by the Spurs a couple of times because of conferences. No Ray Allen and James has Zero victories against pop and the Spurs.

While Kobe makes sure when the Spurs win the title that Kobe's the one that's going to eliminate them by single handily dismantle Pop and his system the following year. Never failed for Kobe.

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 04:31 PM
Everyone ranks/judges differently. At this point, unless LeBron just pulls no-shows or starts being a player he never has been, can't wipe away all the numbers, awards, accolades, all NBA teams, finals MVP's, titles, etc.

If we ranked players that way, they would be at their all time highest at age 30 (roughly), and everyone would slide back down the rankings as they declined. That doesn't really make sense, does it?

If Jordan would have gone 1-5/0-6, well, he wouldn't have been the same Jordan we have ranked where we have him, would he?

Once a player gets enough to justify a ranking, he is set until someone knocks him off for me. Can you think of a player who slid down after reaching a certain spot, outside another player knocking them out of position? I can't.

Every one ranks/judges differently but we all know who can carry what type of load when actually drafting players from scratch to start a franchise, Lebron pulling a no show wouldn't hurt him at all at any stage because he has had bad games from regular season to playoffs but he has shown up way more than not, you cant wipe away what you showcase for 10+ yrs regardless of the accolades/accomplishments, but team(rings) cant boost you up just like you say it wont knock you down, Lebron winning 3 more rings shouldn't boost him up just like losing 3 more times shouldn't knock him down rather he performed like he did against the Mavs or both times against the Warriors or against the 07 Spurs

Jordan would have been the same to me because Bird claimed he was God disguised as Jordan way before the rings, doesn't get much higher compliment than that, Jordan was dominant and to me was the best player in the 80's where he didn't win a single title, his 6 titles on the back end of his career is just that, didn't move the needle for me because he was proven already to be one of the best ever, his come fly with me era proved that in spades, his fadeaway era won titles

the thing about justifying a ranking is too nitpickish, its more just like picking a women, do you prefer big ***/**** and beauty and drama or do you prefer brains/intelligent with the cooking/wifey abilities with a average body, if you are with either or for 10yrs I am sure you would prefer what you have or stuck with, same with people who like bball players, they usually like that player who they identify with or they say I like such and such because they play the right way or that guy is so efficient(rather the player takes 10 or 20shots per game) others like myself like the freak of nature/skill transcendent/franchise/ legend type, those are usually the best most dominant and accolades come with that on a individual level, not titles where it comes down to a collective unit

had Kerr/Paxson/Kukoc not hit big shots in those moments Jordan having 3 rings wouldn't change much for me when judging him and his impact/game because if it wasn't for him basically they wouldn't even be in that position

after around 5 yrs you know what that player is and should be already placed properly, its doesn't take Lebron 14yrs to have fanatics and fake experts screaming he is a top 2-3 player ever, he showed enough by 2007-2010 if you knew anything about bball to be put in that exclusive club

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 04:35 PM
If Lebron has lost in the eastern conference finals those years he lost in the NBA finals would you move him up your rankings based on his new record of 3-0 in the NBA finals?

No

3-0 in the Finals means he had a damn good team to compete and win

I judged Lebron day 1 rookie until year 10 and then its like how much more do I need to watch a player do the same thing over and over and over(even sooner to be honest), I mean its like a broken record after that until the decline of play starts rearing its head

Bill Russell won 11 titles and 13 out 15 if you count his NCAA titles and he doesn't make hardly nobody top 3-5 on here and abroad, which is pretty sad if you ask me since everyone speaks so highly of titles, and I don't give a damn what era he played in because he could have won just 1 like J West but he didn't and he was the main reason why, he was the engine/backbone

More-Than-Most
05-24-2017, 04:47 PM
No

3-0 in the Finals means he had a damn good team to compete and win

I judged Lebron day 1 rookie until year 10 and then its like how much more do I need to watch a player do the same thing over and over and over(even sooner to be honest), I mean its like a broken record after that until the decline of play starts rearing its head

Bill Russell won 11 titles and 13 out 15 if you count his NCAA titles and he doesn't make hardly nobody top 3-5 on here and abroad, which is pretty sad if you ask me since everyone speaks so highly of titles, and I don't give a damn what era he played in because he could have won just 1 like J West but he didn't and he was the main reason why, he was the engine/backbone

so a players abiliy to sustain greatness means nothing over a long period of time to you? Because you know all players can do what duncan/kobe did? Lebron is doing what both of them did but at a much higher level on top of actually getting wiser and maintaining said skill while going up against the best teams ever... Na lets just judge him his first 10 years so we can discount this insane success he has had but had he declined you would be singing a different tune.

FOXHOUND
05-24-2017, 04:49 PM
Every one ranks/judges differently but we all know who can carry what type of load when actually drafting players from scratch to start a franchise, Lebron pulling a no show wouldn't hurt him at all at any stage because he has had bad games from regular season to playoffs but he has shown up way more than not, you cant wipe away what you showcase for 10+ yrs regardless of the accolades/accomplishments, but team(rings) cant boost you up just like you say it wont knock you down, Lebron winning 3 more rings shouldn't boost him up just like losing 3 more times shouldn't knock him down rather he performed like he did against the Mavs or both times against the Warriors or against the 07 Spurs

Jordan would have been the same to me because Bird claimed he was God disguised as Jordan way before the rings, doesn't get much higher compliment than that, Jordan was dominant and to me was the best player in the 80's where he didn't win a single title, his 6 titles on the back end of his career is just that, didn't move the needle for me because he was proven already to be one of the best ever, his come fly with me era proved that in spades, his fadeaway era won titles

the thing about justifying a ranking is too nitpickish, its more just like picking a women, do you prefer big ***/**** and beauty and drama or do you prefer brains/intelligent with the cooking/wifey abilities with a average body, if you are with either or for 10yrs I am sure you would prefer what you have or stuck with, same with people who like bball players, they usually like that player who they identify with or they say I like such and such because they play the right way or that guy is so efficient(rather the player takes 10 or 20shots per game) others like myself like the freak of nature/skill transcendent/franchise/ legend type, those are usually the best most dominant and accolades come with that on a individual level, not titles where it comes down to a collective unit

had Kerr/Paxson/Kukoc not hit big shots in those moments Jordan having 3 rings wouldn't change much for me when judging him and his impact/game because if it wasn't for him basically they wouldn't even be in that position

after around 5 yrs you know what that player is and should be already placed properly, its doesn't take Lebron 14yrs to have fanatics and fake experts screaming he is a top 2-3 player ever, he showed enough by 2007-2010 if you knew anything about bball to be put in that exclusive club

Question - what makes you think Magic and Bird can't carry a franchise like LeBron?

The Lakers were good before Magic, but with him they went from 47 to 60 wins and won a championship with him winning Finals MVP. As the years went by he became the clear best player on the Lakers, winning 3 MVP's, and ultimately being a co-leader at worst of 5 championship teams and 9 Finals teams in just an 11-year span.

The Celtics won 29-games the year before Bird - and then won 61. They won 60+ games in each of his first 3 years, including an NBA Championship in year 2. In years 5-7 of Bird's career, he won 3 straight MVP's and won his 2nd and 3rd titles. Overall, he led the Celtics to 3 championships and 5 Finals over his first 8 years with the Celtics failing to win 60-games only twice (59 and 56).

LeBron came from high school, but he didn't make the playoffs until his 3rd season and overall his playoff resume over his first 7 years is pretty weak when considering how weak the east is. Really, his only great playoff run in that span was 2009 when they lost to Orlando in the ECF. He gets a lot of hoopla for 07 but when you go back and look at how he performed vs how weak those teams were then ehhh...

In terms of rags to riches success, it's very hard to beat what Magic and Bird did for their franchises. Especially Bird. LeBron has some amazing longevity on his side vs both of them, with their aids and back woes :laugh2:, but those dudes weren't slouches.

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 04:51 PM
But if LeBron is there, everything changes. Swapping Melo for LeBron doesn't make those Denver teams better than the Spurs or Lakers they lost to in 06-08. If he's in the west, the 2010 FA also likely doesn't happen either, because he's on a better team and winning right? So you're taking away a lot of his Finals and championships off the back end.

There's no need for hypothetical stuff with LeBron's career, we have 14-years of it as it is.

You're the one using hypothetical situations. Why do you guys act like LeBron in the West doesn't make the Finals? He has the BEST chance to do it out of any single solo player. So if he's not making it to the Finals, 99% of the time it's because his team wasn't good enough. You can't find one player other than maybe Jordan better at carrying a team from point A to point Z. All things being equal, LeBron gives you the best chance to win a championship. That's the bottom line. Like I said, him on the West gives him a better team and a better Finals record. He might not make it to as many NBA Finals but he also wouldn't be blamed for losing four of them.

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 04:52 PM
Question - what makes you think Magic and Bird can't carry a franchise like LeBron?

The Lakers were good before Magic, but with him they went from 47 to 60 wins and won a championship with him winning Finals MVP. As the years went by he became the clear best player on the Lakers, winning 3 MVP's, and ultimately being a co-leader at worst of 5 championship teams and 9 Finals teams in just an 11-year span.

The Celtics won 29-games the year before Bird - and then won 61. They won 60+ games in each of his first 3 years, including an NBA Championship in year 2. In years 5-7 of Bird's career, he won 3 straight MVP's and won his 2nd and 3rd titles. Overall, he led the Celtics to 3 championships and 5 Finals over his first 8 years with the Celtics failing to win 60-games only twice (59 and 56).

LeBron came from high school, but he didn't make the playoffs until his 3rd season and overall his playoff resume over his first 7 years is pretty weak when considering how weak the east is. Really, his only great playoff run in that span was 2009 when they lost to Orlando in the ECF. He gets a lot of hoopla for 07 but when you go back and look at how he performed vs how weak those teams were then ehhh...

In terms of rags to riches success, it's very hard to beat what Magic and Bird did for their franchises. Especially Bird. LeBron has some amazing longevity on his side vs both of them, with their aids and back woes :laugh2:, but those dudes weren't slouches.

Because Magic and Bird aren't better than LeBron?

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 04:56 PM
so a players abiliy to sustain greatness means nothing over a long period of time to you? Because you know all players can do what duncan/kobe did? Lebron is doing what both of them did but at a much higher level on top of actually getting wiser and maintaining said skill while going up against the best teams ever... Na lets just judge him his first 10 years so we can discount this insane success he has had but had he declined you would be singing a different tune.

Lebron doing it for a long time is impressive, 10yrs is a long time while 14 yrs is longer but its not the same as his first stint in Cleveland where he carried a heavier load, he has it easier with 2 other all stars for the past 7yrs aiding him which helps him sustain, its the same reason he said he left Cavs first time, he said he doesn't want to have bad knees by age 30(code word for carrying a severely heavy load that wont make him last long)

if you watch a player for 10yrs do the same thing over and over minus the signature tomahawk dunk how much more can he really impress you? Lebron has played this way from his first stint in Cleveland to now back in Cleveland but the difference is he has better title contending talent, Mo Williams says hi

FOXHOUND
05-24-2017, 04:56 PM
You're the one using hypothetical situations. Why do you guys act like LeBron in the West doesn't make the Finals? He has the BEST chance to do it out of any single solo player. So if he's not making it to the Finals, 99% of the time it's because his team wasn't good enough. You can't find one player other than maybe Jordan better at carrying a team from point A to point Z. All things being equal, LeBron gives you the best chance to win a championship. That's the bottom line. Like I said, him on the West gives him a better team and a better Finals record. He might not make it to as many NBA Finals but he also wouldn't be blamed for losing four of them.

I don't think that's true. He didn't play that well in the 07 playoffs, despite leading the Cavs to the Finals in a east so pathetic that he played the 41-win Nets in the second round. In 08, he was decimated by Boston with the worst 4-game shooting stretch in NBA history (that his "bad" team still won 2 games of by double digits). In 2009 he played great but lost to Dwight Howard, not sure why I would bet on him beating guys like Kobe or Duncan. In 2010, he started sucking and flat out quit by the end of the Celtics series despite being up 2-1. In 2011, we all know what happened in the Finals.

I think you're making a very big assumption that LeBron does this or that vs far superior competition. It wasn't until his 2nd or 3rd year in Miami that he had a career winning series record vs 50-win teams, and we know how much more common those are in the west. Maybe he has his 2011 meltdown earlier in his career and learns that he has to work his *** off to win sooner, I don't know.

I'm not using any hypothetical situations, I can only base LeBron on the 14-year career he has had.

FlashBolt
05-24-2017, 04:59 PM
I don't think that's true. He didn't play that well in the 07 playoffs, despite leading the Cavs to the Finals in a east so pathetic that he played the 41-win Nets in the second round. In 08, he was decimated by Boston with the worst 4-game shooting stretch in NBA history (that his bad team still won 2 games of by double digits). In 2010, he started sucking and flat out quit by the end of the Celtics series despite being up 2-1. In 2011, we all know what happened in the Finals.

I think you're making a very big assumption that LeBron does did or that vs far superior competition. It was until his 2nd or 3rd year in Miami that he had a winning series record vs 50-win teams, and we know how much more common those are in the west. Maybe he has his 2011 meltdown earlier in his career and learns that he has to work his *** off to win sooner, I don't know.

I'm not using any hypothetical situations, I can only base LeBron on the 14-year career he has had.

You're basing a LeBron that had complete scrubs on his team. That's what you're doing. I'm basing LeBron off if he had a team like some of the other stars in the West had. If you're arguing that LeBron doesn't give you the best chance to win a championship during the 05-10 years, then I don't know what to tell you. If he lost, it wasn't because he got outplayed by a player. It was because his team wasn't playing up to par. And blaming LeBron for what happened vs Spurs is stupid. I can play this hypothetical all game but it doesn't change the fact that I'm taking LeBron over any player during those years and it's that simple.

Bostonjorge
05-24-2017, 04:59 PM
totally. Like when they rode Kobe and his 15 ppg on 37% shooting to a 4-2 win over the Pacers in the 2000 Finals.

Oh wait, Shaq's 38/17 might have had an impact....


Kobe was a terrific player. Top 10-12 due to being a top 5 player for years, and longevity, along with scoring prowess. But he is not one of the top tier talents the game has seen. LeBron absolutely is.
Check the series before the finals or as everyone calls it "the real Finals".

This stats line has already been debunked over and over. They played 6 games.

Game 1 - 14 pts, 5 asst

Game 2 - Kobe got hurt and out for game in first.

Game 3 - DNP injury

Game 4 - injured Kobe 28 pts, 5 asst, this game from Kobe was legendary. NBA for the 60th anniversary did a 60 greatest playoff moments. This game by Kobe was on it. Kobe displayed like Kyrie is showing now. That he can take the Keys and deliver.

Game 5 - Kobe only bad game still injured

Game 6 - 26 pts, 10 rebounds.

Again even here with that stat line, Kobe's greatness was still felt. Only one bad game don't get you a bad series when you also had a legend game.

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 05:03 PM
Question - what makes you think Magic and Bird can't carry a franchise like LeBron?

The Lakers were good before Magic, but with him they went from 47 to 60 wins and won a championship with him winning Finals MVP. As the years went by he became the clear best player on the Lakers, winning 3 MVP's, and ultimately being a co-leader at worst of 5 championship teams and 9 Finals teams in just an 11-year span.

The Celtics won 29-games the year before Bird - and then won 61. They won 60+ games in each of his first 3 years, including an NBA Championship in year 2. In years 5-7 of Bird's career, he won 3 straight MVP's and won his 2nd and 3rd titles. Overall, he led the Celtics to 3 championships and 5 Finals over his first 8 years with the Celtics failing to win 60-games only twice (59 and 56).

LeBron came from high school, but he didn't make the playoffs until his 3rd season and overall his playoff resume over his first 7 years is pretty weak when considering how weak the east is. Really, his only great playoff run in that span was 2009 when they lost to Orlando in the ECF. He gets a lot of hoopla for 07 but when you go back and look at how he performed vs how weak those teams were then ehhh...

In terms of rags to riches success, it's very hard to beat what Magic and Bird did for their franchises. Especially Bird. LeBron has some amazing longevity on his side vs both of them, with their aids and back woes :laugh2:, but those dudes weren't slouches.

Magic didn't even want to go the the Bulls had they won the coin toss over LA, he said he wanted KareemLA, its documented if you Google it and read the quote yourself from Magic, that tell me right there he wouldn't have been able to carry a average Chicago to 9 finals out of 12yrs, but I wont fault him for putting himself in a position to win immediately ,just like Lebron could have but he went to who drafted him, he didn't want to play for the Cavs off top

Was it just Bird or did they make the other moves to get those core players around him? if he carried the same 29 win team to that then he is on that level

Lebron was drafted by a 18 win team or similar to that effect, making the playoffs by year 3 is a miracle within itself

Rags to riches? more like riches to more riches for Magic going from a ncaa title team to the premier franchise with a multiple mvp winner and then getting a number 1 pick coming off a title(I think), Bird was drafted by the other premier franchise and would have been even more lethal had L Bias not passed away because he was the guy to add years to Bird career

they weren't slouches but I am not drafting them over Lebron, but its not a big deal if you would draft Bird/Magic over Lebron, its your team you are building not mine

FOXHOUND
05-24-2017, 05:08 PM
You're basing a LeBron that had complete scrubs on his team. That's what you're doing. I'm basing LeBron off if he had a team like some of the other stars in the West had. If you're arguing that LeBron doesn't give you the best chance to win a championship during the 05-10 years, then I don't know what to tell you. If he lost, it wasn't because he got outplayed by a player. It was because his team wasn't playing up to par. And blaming LeBron for what happened vs Spurs is stupid. I can play this hypothetical all game but it doesn't change the fact that I'm taking LeBron over any player during those years and it's that simple.

I don't blame LeBron for losing vs the Spurs but I can blame him for being terrible and air balling four free throws in four games, right? It also just wasn't the Finals, he didn't shoot well throughout that entire playoff run and played terrible teams in the east. I mean he was young, so you can use that excuse, but everyone likes to ignore how close that Finals series was. The Cavs lost games 3 and 4 by a combined four points. LeBron went 9-23 with 5 TO's in a 3 point loss in game 3 and 10-30 with 6 TO's and 2-6 from the line in a 1 point loss in game 4.

Those games were so close because LeBron's "scrub" teammates held Tim Duncan to 6-17 and Manu Ginobili to 0-7 in game 3 and Duncan to 4-15 in game 4. Last time I checked, Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili were pretty good at basketball in 2007. That's why Tony Parker won Finals MVP, despite himself playing great. But yeah, as usual we can always ignore defense and crap on LeBron's teammates back then because they weren't dropping 40 like Kyrie does or 17-17-5 like Love does now. Oh wait, now we bash those guys for defense, right?

The merry-go-round will never stop with the bash LeBron's team mentality lol.

I don't think LeBron failing to get further in 07-10 had as much to do with his teammates as the mental hurdle he needed to get over. I think he proved this to the world pretty clearly in the 2011 Finals when he had a super stacked team and blew it because he couldn't post up Jason Terry and JJ Barrea.

FOXHOUND
05-24-2017, 05:19 PM
Magic didn't even want to go the the Bulls had they won the coin toss over LA, he said he wanted KareemLA, its documented if you Google it and read the quote yourself from Magic, that tell me right there he wouldn't have been able to carry a average Chicago to 9 finals out of 12yrs, but I wont fault him for putting himself in a position to win immediately ,just like Lebron could have but he went to who drafted him, he didn't want to play for the Cavs off top

Was it just Bird or did they make the other moves to get those core players around him? if he carried the same 29 win team to that then he is on that level

Lebron was drafted by a 18 win team or similar to that effect, making the playoffs by year 3 is a miracle within itself

Rags to riches? more like riches to more riches for Magic going from a ncaa title team to the premier franchise with a multiple mvp winner and then getting a number 1 pick coming off a title(I think), Bird was drafted by the other premier franchise and would have been even more lethal had L Bias not passed away because he was the guy to add years to Bird career

they weren't slouches but I am not drafting them over Lebron, but its not a big deal if you would draft Bird/Magic over Lebron, its your team you are building not mine

Of course, I mean no one makes 3 or more Finals without some great teams to begin with. Magic is definitely much less rag to riches, but he did lead them to the Finals in 91 when Kareem and others were gone and that team was a small shell of it's old glory. Bird was rags to riches all the way, and they made moves along the way to make them stacked for sure.

It's not like Big Z, who was an All-Star in 2003 (year before LeBron) and 2005 or young Carlos Boozer were exactly scrubs. That team winning a bit more to make the postseason his first two years was definitely possible. They missed by 1 game his rookie year, despite winning 35 games lmao, and lost a tiebreaker in year 2 despite winning 42 games. I mean, Wade won a playoff series in his rookie year and took the #1 Pacers to game 6, let alone making the playoffs.

I don't know, as great as LeBron is, I think the explosive winning stardom to his career gets overrated a lot. He was a tremendous individual player very fast but he really didn't pour on the winning until a bit later. The east was terrible in the mid-late 2000's, who are we kidding?

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 05:28 PM
Question - what makes you think Magic and Bird can't carry a franchise like LeBron?

The Lakers were good before Magic, but with him they went from 47 to 60 wins and won a championship with him winning Finals MVP. As the years went by he became the clear best player on the Lakers, winning 3 MVP's, and ultimately being a co-leader at worst of 5 championship teams and 9 Finals teams in just an 11-year span.

The Celtics won 29-games the year before Bird - and then won 61. They won 60+ games in each of his first 3 years, including an NBA Championship in year 2. In years 5-7 of Bird's career, he won 3 straight MVP's and won his 2nd and 3rd titles. Overall, he led the Celtics to 3 championships and 5 Finals over his first 8 years with the Celtics failing to win 60-games only twice (59 and 56).

LeBron came from high school, but he didn't make the playoffs until his 3rd season and overall his playoff resume over his first 7 years is pretty weak when considering how weak the east is. Really, his only great playoff run in that span was 2009 when they lost to Orlando in the ECF. He gets a lot of hoopla for 07 but when you go back and look at how he performed vs how weak those teams were then ehhh...

In terms of rags to riches success, it's very hard to beat what Magic and Bird did for their franchises. Especially Bird. LeBron has some amazing longevity on his side vs both of them, with their aids and back woes :laugh2:, but those dudes weren't slouches.

Magic/Bird were given more help than almost any other star in history. They are terrible examples of "carrying" a team compared to LeBron carrying a dumpster fire to 60 wins.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2017, 05:31 PM
Check the series before the finals or as everyone calls it "the real Finals".

This stats line has already been debunked over and over. They played 6 games.

Game 1 - 14 pts, 5 asst

Game 2 - Kobe got hurt and out for game in first.

Game 3 - DNP injury

Game 4 - injured Kobe 28 pts, 5 asst, this game from Kobe was legendary. NBA for the 60th anniversary did a 60 greatest playoff moments. This game by Kobe was on it. Kobe displayed like Kyrie is showing now. That he can take the Keys and deliver.

Game 5 - Kobe only bad game still injured

Game 6 - 26 pts, 10 rebounds.

Again even here with that stat line, Kobe's greatness was still felt. Only one bad game don't get you a bad series when you also had a legend game.

What is your point? The Lakers won a ring with Kobe playing like an average starting player. They did.

That is the luxury LeBron has never had. If he isn't the best player on the floor, his team gets their butt kicked in the playoffs.

Look, I am not even sure why I replied to you, I could care less what point you attempt to make when it comes to Kobe, or LeBron. LeBron sailed by Kobe years ago.

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 06:34 PM
Of course, I mean no one makes 3 or more Finals without some great teams to begin with. Magic is definitely much less rag to riches, but he did lead them to the Finals in 91 when Kareem and others were gone and that team was a small shell of it's old glory. Bird was rags to riches all the way, and they made moves along the way to make them stacked for sure.

It's not like Big Z, who was an All-Star in 2003 (year before LeBron) and 2005 or young Carlos Boozer were exactly scrubs. That team winning a bit more to make the postseason his first two years was definitely possible. They missed by 1 game his rookie year, despite winning 35 games lmao, and lost a tiebreaker in year 2 despite winning 42 games. I mean, Wade won a playoff series in his rookie year and took the #1 Pacers to game 6, let alone making the playoffs.

I don't know, as great as LeBron is, I think the explosive winning stardom to his career gets overrated a lot. He was a tremendous individual player very fast but he really didn't pour on the winning until a bit later. The east was terrible in the mid-late 2000's, who are we kidding?

Both Bird/Magic were highly touted coming out of college and went to the two most decorated franchises ever is the reason why I said riches to more riches but you can think what you feel, no biggie

when I compare Lebron talent from first 7 yrs to back 7 that's what I am basing it off, he went to Finals with a team nobody picked to go preseason to since 11' he has been the preseason fav to make it, I am not taking nothing away from BigZ/Boozer/Boobie/Mo

of course his fanatics on here over rate him, and I pull for him as well but know he is flawed and his fanatics are just judging him for the past 6-7yrs and not the entire career like I do for all players

of course the 00's was pretty weak when a 5'10'' AI could reach a Finals with no other bona fide 2nd scoring option, if he had a Pierce/Tmac they would have made 3-5 straight, taking Detroit 00's run

I knew they were close to making the playoffs his first couple of years but when you are drafted by a 18-20 win team it will take 2-3yrs if you are that true franchise player, its not like he got drafted by a 50 win team like Kobe and then got Shaq that same offseason

FOXHOUND
05-24-2017, 06:44 PM
Both Bird/Magic were highly touted coming out of college and went to the two most decorated franchises ever is the reason why I said riches to more riches but you can think what you feel, no biggie

when I compare Lebron talent from first 7 yrs to back 7 that's what I am basing it off, he went to Finals with a team nobody picked to go preseason to since 11' he has been the preseason fav to make it, I am not taking nothing away from BigZ/Boozer/Boobie/Mo

of course his fanatics on here over rate him, and I pull for him as well but know he is flawed and his fanatics are just judging him for the past 6-7yrs and not the entire career like I do for all players

of course the 00's was pretty weak when a 5'10'' AI could reach a Finals with no other bona fide 2nd scoring option, if he had a Pierce/Tmac they would have made 3-5 straight, taking Detroit 00's run

I knew they were close to making the playoffs his first couple of years but when you are drafted by a 18-20 win team it will take 2-3yrs if you are that true franchise player, its not like he got drafted by a 50 win team like Kobe and then got Shaq that same offseason

Fair points.

As a franchise overall, yeah the Celtics are certainly rich. I wasn't saying that Magic and Bird would have the same success on Cleveland as they did the Lakers or Celtics, but I think they at least match Bron from those first 7 years. Who knows though, all 3 are great for many reasons.

cmellofan15
05-24-2017, 07:31 PM
What I think hawk fails to realize is the perennial contender that was the Cavs before LeBron got there. Then LeBron got to play on a STACKED team with Ricky Davis and Darius Miles--and somehow couldn't win a ring with that core.....wow..

europagnpilgrim
05-24-2017, 07:35 PM
Fair points.

As a franchise overall, yeah the Celtics are certainly rich. I wasn't saying that Magic and Bird would have the same success on Cleveland as they did the Lakers or Celtics, but I think they at least match Bron from those first 7 years. Who knows though, all 3 are great for many reasons.


Magic loved the assists more so than Lebron so he possibly could have in that category but not the scoring, Magic could do it in flashes like in that Finals game as a rookie but not for bulk because it wasn't his game/DNA, as far as Bird he would be able to score and get his shots but I don't think he could have carried those Cavs teams to deep playoff runs with that support Lebron had as far, all 3 are but for different and many reasons

Lebron earned his more just for enduring a true lottery bottom feed team off top and propelling them, its the reason why I give AI/Wilt and others big props over those who played with stacked title ready squads since your true impact/ability show more when dealing with less

Lebron showed that if given a title contending team he can reach Finals and he did it with a non title caliber team as well which shows his true value/impact at its apex, not so much for the past 7 yrs as opposed to the first 7, he maxed out with 1 trip first 7yrs, pretty much all he could do, just like now what he is doing is not all that special since his team is built for it and his fanatics fail to realize that this help he has is why he is still playing at high level, along with him staying in tip top shape also

when Lebron was with Heat he could avg 16 shots per game and they were legit contenders, when he was with Cavs first go around there is no way he could take that same amount and be able to contend, he had to get his 20+ if they were going to be successful, or at least be in that frame of mind to do it rather he took them or not, he coasts now and picks his spots because he is fresh and could rely on Wade/Bosh to now Irving/Love and the snipers around him that both teams supplied him

Chronz
05-24-2017, 08:39 PM
You remember when Phill coached Kobe? Phill use to use the media to his advantage as well. Like when Phill said that Kobe can ask for a trade if he's not happy. Obviously they weren't going to trade him. The same way Kobe would not waive his no trade clause. It just gets results. Zen master.

Was that before or after he wanted kobe traded away for kidd?

JordansBulls
05-24-2017, 08:59 PM
Can we all just get along?:)

Bostonjorge
05-25-2017, 12:05 AM
What is your point? The Lakers won a ring with Kobe playing like an average starting player. They did.

That is the luxury LeBron has never had. If he isn't the best player on the floor, his team gets their butt kicked in the playoffs.

Look, I am not even sure why I replied to you, I could care less what point you attempt to make when it comes to Kobe, or LeBron. LeBron sailed by Kobe years ago.

Kobe played way above average but of course the series before Kobe was elite against the best team in the NBA and real finals. Lakers didn't need Shaq to average 17 rebounds or 36 points a game to win those finals. Shaq was just under matched so lakers exploited it. Kobe still left his mark. Future success shows Kobe could of drove all those titles home.

cmellofan15
05-25-2017, 12:08 AM
Kobe played way above average but of course the series before Kobe was elite against the best team in the NBA and real finals. Lakers didn't need Shaq to average 17 rebounds or 36 points a game to win those finals. Shaq was just under matched so lakers exploited it. Kobe still left his mark. Future success shows Kobe could of drove all those titles home.

without Shaq? LMAO yeah right.

FlashBolt
05-25-2017, 01:44 AM
I learned that the ignore option really works. Why spend time replying to someone who will never change their mind? Like seriously, they're not even here to talk basketball. They come up with empty blank statements such as 5-2 or "killer instinct." No substance whatsoever. Just put em on ignore so we can actually get to the details. I can't remember who it was but Draymond and Klay weren't top 30 players according to him.. So how do you even debate with a guy like that?

LOb0
05-25-2017, 01:45 AM
I learned that the ignore option really works. Why spend time replying to someone who will never change their mind? Like seriously, they're not even here to talk basketball. They come up with empty blank statements such as 5-2 or "killer instinct." No substance whatsoever. Just put em on ignore so we can actually get to the details.

You're just as illogical with LeBron as Kobe fans are with Kobe.

FOXHOUND
05-25-2017, 02:13 AM
Magic loved the assists more so than Lebron so he possibly could have in that category but not the scoring, Magic could do it in flashes like in that Finals game as a rookie but not for bulk because it wasn't his game/DNA, as far as Bird he would be able to score and get his shots but I don't think he could have carried those Cavs teams to deep playoff runs with that support Lebron had as far, all 3 are but for different and many reasons

Lebron earned his more just for enduring a true lottery bottom feed team off top and propelling them, its the reason why I give AI/Wilt and others big props over those who played with stacked title ready squads since your true impact/ability show more when dealing with less

Lebron showed that if given a title contending team he can reach Finals and he did it with a non title caliber team as well which shows his true value/impact at its apex, not so much for the past 7 yrs as opposed to the first 7, he maxed out with 1 trip first 7yrs, pretty much all he could do, just like now what he is doing is not all that special since his team is built for it and his fanatics fail to realize that this help he has is why he is still playing at high level, along with him staying in tip top shape also

when Lebron was with Heat he could avg 16 shots per game and they were legit contenders, when he was with Cavs first go around there is no way he could take that same amount and be able to contend, he had to get his 20+ if they were going to be successful, or at least be in that frame of mind to do it rather he took them or not, he coasts now and picks his spots because he is fresh and could rely on Wade/Bosh to now Irving/Love and the snipers around him that both teams supplied him

I don't know man, a 20-year old rookie Magic dropped 42 points with 15 boards and 7 assists in that game 7 of the Finals starting at C because Kareem got hurt. That's a bit more than a flash lol. If Magic was in a position of need when younger, he definitely could have scored more. He did get up to averaging 24 PPG, and in some Finals he was up in the 26 or so range while still averaging his 12-15 AST. Magic was an amazing competitor, he could do what the team needed if he had to.

But really, the Cavs would be a completely different team with Magic and would have been built differently going forward. With LeBron, they lived in that slow, half court, PnR heavy game. With Magic, they open things up and target different players to bring in. Larry Hughes works out much better with Magic, since he thrived in open court in Washington and the half court game killed him, for example.

Bird could do it all man, and really there wasn't many changes between that 29-win and 61-win team that added a rookie Bird. They changed their coach, maybe that was a bigger deal. They got Pete Maravich in his last year for a brief time, but they even lost Bob McAdoo from the year before. That turn around really was all Bird, and a lot has been said about his incredible impact beyond the stat sheet for those teams. Bird also came in as a 23-year old rookie, so that's definitely something to take into consideration. He truly was ready to win from day 1.

Would be cool to see how Magic and Bird would have played in the modern NBA. As great a shooter as Bird was, he didn't even utilize his 3 point shot all that much because it was fairly new in the 80's. His highest 3PTM season was 1.3 lol. Pau Gasol just hit 0.9 a game, higher than Bird's career 0.7 average. Bird also started at PF when he was young, which is why McHale came off the bench. He would have been the ultimate mismatch just as he was then. He probably wouldn't have liked playing for Cleveland though, being an Indiana boy. :)

I agree with your points about LeBron. I think the big difference between him and those two is his physical advantage, and in turn his defense at his peak. That game 5 vs the Pistons for example, that was just a show of physical dominance. I don't think the other two need it as much, because I believe they were better at elevating their team/teammates play for various reasons. But yeah, a prime and locked in LeBron is truly a force of nature that is hard to match.

MarkieMark48
05-25-2017, 06:47 AM
Kareem was 6-4 in the Finals. Magic was 5-4 in the Finals. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals. Shaq was 4-2 in the Finals.

There are some people obsessed with the basic number of Finals record, but the context in itself is what matters. Just like people shouldn't rave about how many times LeBron made the Finals in a row with stacked teams in the pathetic east, other people should be smart enough to realize that in 2007, 2011 and 2014 he doesn't get there to begin with if he's in the west.

Getting to the Finals is always better than not doing so, unless you're beating pathetically weak competition to do so.

The people that downplay Lebrons finals appearance streak shouldn't rave about Magic's 9 out of 11 finals trips because the west was just was weak (if not weaker) in the 80's than the east is now...

So if youre playing weak competition its better to not make the finals? In my opinion, there is absolutely no circumstance where losing in the conference playoffs is better than losing in the finals, unless youre trying to make the silly argument that it would help a players finals record.

Lebron cant help who decides to come east, its not his fault Durant, LA, and other free agents decide to stay out west (or is it?)

SanPitte
05-25-2017, 08:21 AM
Kobe's great but Shaq was the best player in the NBA and it wasn't really close. Does LeBron and a prime Shaq win three rings? I mean, let's be honest here.

not only do they win the 3 rings, but they also win a couple more together because Lebron wouldn't have pushed Shaq out of LA

to get back on topic, Barkley is just trying to create buzz when he says stupid things like that (which is quite often), and when he considers rings as the most important criterion to rank players, does he forget he has none?

mightybosstone
05-25-2017, 10:54 AM
Lebron passed Kobe years ago. Charles is an idiot (albeit an entertaining, extremely likable one). /thread

Bostonjorge
05-25-2017, 06:35 PM
not only do they win the 3 rings, but they also win a couple more together because Lebron wouldn't have pushed Shaq out of LA

to get back on topic, Barkley is just trying to create buzz when he says stupid things like that (which is quite often), and when he considers rings as the most important criterion to rank players, does he forget he has none?

How you know Shaq wouldn't have pushed James out of LA?

More-Than-Most
05-25-2017, 07:04 PM
You're just as illogical with LeBron as Kobe fans are with Kobe.

except one guy is only 32 and already the 2nd or 3rd best ever....

Chronz
05-25-2017, 07:37 PM
Both Bird/Magic were highly touted coming out of college and went to the two most decorated franchises ever is the reason why I said riches to more riches but you can think what you feel, no biggie

when I compare Lebron talent from first 7 yrs to back 7 that's what I am basing it off, he went to Finals with a team nobody picked to go preseason to since 11' he has been the preseason fav to make it, I am not taking nothing away from BigZ/Boozer/Boobie/Mo

of course his fanatics on here over rate him, and I pull for him as well but know he is flawed and his fanatics are just judging him for the past 6-7yrs and not the entire career like I do for all players

of course the 00's was pretty weak when a 5'10'' AI could reach a Finals with no other bona fide 2nd scoring option, if he had a Pierce/Tmac they would have made 3-5 straight, taking Detroit 00's run

I knew they were close to making the playoffs his first couple of years but when you are drafted by a 18-20 win team it will take 2-3yrs if you are that true franchise player, its not like he got drafted by a 50 win team like Kobe and then got Shaq that same offseason

Nah, AI would've found a way to **** it all up, he wasn't a PG and I dont know how he would handle being the 2nd best player on the team so early in his career.

Chronz
05-25-2017, 07:41 PM
How you know Shaq wouldn't have pushed James out of LA?

Bron is deferential in nature, hes a better passer and provides more size/versatility alongside Shaq (as opposed to Kobe who was too small to pair with Eddie Jones in the backcourt. Bron would've waited his turn IMO, Kobe wanted to be like MJ. Tmac would have been the best possible pairing for Shaq because he combines the best of both players with the fact that hes actually friends with Shaq and has admitted multiple times he would have LOVED watching Shaq dominate.

LOb0
05-25-2017, 08:35 PM
How you know Shaq wouldn't have pushed James out of LA?

If anything, Bron would have over deferred to Shaq. They'd of had no problems.

GREATNESS ONE
05-25-2017, 09:13 PM
except one guy is only 32 and already the 2nd or 3rd best ever....

4-6.

GREATNESS ONE
05-25-2017, 09:13 PM
If anything, Bron would have over deferred to Shaq. They'd of had no problems.

Not too sure about that brotha.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2017, 10:13 PM
I think if he was on the Lakers and played with Shaq, he would have tried to emulate Magic Johnson, especially as a young 18-22 year old. Maybe once Lebron turns 23 or something then they clash as Lebron probably wants to be the guy. But at that point, Shaq would be past his prime so I think timing wise where they were at their stage of their careers, it is a little easier to work with.

Jeffy25
05-26-2017, 12:48 AM
Bynum?

That dude was held together with bandages for all the years with Kobe except for one, and that was not a title year.

He started in both Finals, but he also had Odom, Artest and Fisher. Not bad teams at all.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 01:06 AM
These debates are all just media driven and they just make a ton of money, other than that I do find it amusing. The simplest way I can put this is Lebron has needed 3 vs 2 to win his championships. What I mean by this is that Lebron has needed two guys along with him who could put up 30 on any given night and can average 20, plus he has played way weaker competition while having more stars on his team. Now I know the argument can come out that Shaq played with Kobe and Pippen played with MJ but regardless they only had one other guy on their team besides them that could put up 30 on any given night and could average 20. Not to mention a guy like Kobe with one other super star (Shaq or Pau) has beaten Boston's big 3 in the finals and had to go through the Spurs big 3 for years so in essence he was able to win with 2 vs 3 and I can't see Lebron being able to do that and has not done it in his career.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 01:11 AM
I believe if Jordan or Kobe had two other superstars on their teams that could put 30 on any night, they would be even more successful. The one thing I will say too is we never saw Lebron play with just one other superstar/allstar, he went from playing with zero to playing with two, so who knows but either way he would be less successful with just one.

Jeffy25
05-26-2017, 01:15 AM
Also as great as LeBron is he will be 3-5 in the finals after this year and he was the GM of every team he was on in the historically weak eastern conference. Say what you want about LeBron, in the west he does not go to 7 straight finals, sorry would never happen.

I'm building a post on this, but the Finals record argument is the stupidest, lowest form of critical thinking when evaluating players all time.

1. You can't win alone
2. You are actually rewarding players for losing earlier in the playoffs
3. Not ever team you face in the Finals is equal

Are we really going to penalize 22 year old Bron for his first Finals appearnace?

Jordan was 27 when he first appeared in the Finals, Bron was currently 0-2 through his age 26, at 27, both players won their first title.

Bron, at age 32 is going for his 4th title, the same age Jordan was when he got his 4th.

You can't say well Jordan didn't get to the NBA until 21, and then penalize Bron for getting there so young.

What matters is what it is when they are done, and Bron has plenty of time left.

nastynice
05-26-2017, 01:21 AM
Not shocking at all considering who is saying it... fun note he goes by championships but ignores the fact that he has 0 when arguing himself up... Lebron passed kobe years ago... whoever doesnt have lebron top 5 should just watch soccer or something because you either allow hate to cloud your judgement or you allowed hate to cloud your judgement.

Or maybe there are just 5 players that have played this game that are better..? :shrug:

FOXHOUND
05-26-2017, 01:27 AM
The people that downplay Lebrons finals appearance streak shouldn't rave about Magic's 9 out of 11 finals trips because the west was just was weak (if not weaker) in the 80's than the east is now...

So if youre playing weak competition its better to not make the finals? In my opinion, there is absolutely no circumstance where losing in the conference playoffs is better than losing in the finals, unless youre trying to make the silly argument that it would help a players finals record.

Lebron cant help who decides to come east, its not his fault Durant, LA, and other free agents decide to stay out west (or is it?)

I didn't mean it that way, of course it's always better to make the Finals. I'm just saying that people should take competition and the advantage of the talent on his teams into consideration when talking about his Finals streak.

Yes, I do think that people should view Kareem and Magic having each other and later Worthy as an enormous advantage to their legacy. There were strong teams in the west, it was just usually the WCF where it came up. What is the toughest team LeBron has played in the east during this streak, the Indiana Pacers? No offense to those Pacers, but I'd much rather play them than have to deal with Hakeem's Rockets, or Gervin's Spurs, or English's Nuggets. The other thing is the Finals teams they played, like prime Bird and his stacked Celtics, were also a handful.

The thing in general is that any team/player who was made a ridiculous amount of Finals like that all mostly had a huge talent advantage. That's the only way it happens. The better that teams best player is makes it easier to have that advantage, of course.

LeBron's Finals record, other than 2011, to me says more about the fact that he shouldn't have been there more than anything about him individually. It is still a team sport, LeBron fans can't use that excuse only when it doesn't favor him. You can't complain about his first run Cleveland teams for him not winning and then ignore his Miami and current Cleveland teams talent when he does.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2017, 01:36 AM
I didn't mean it that way, of course it's always better to make the Finals. I'm just saying that people should take competition and the advantage of the talent on his teams into consideration when talking about his Finals streak.

Yes, I do think that people should view Kareem and Magic having each other and later Worthy as an enormous advantage to their legacy. There were strong teams in the west, it was just usually the WCF where it came up. What is the toughest team LeBron has played in the east during this streak, the Indiana Pacers? No offense to those Pacers, but I'd much rather play them than have to deal with Hakeem's Rockets, or Gervin's Spurs, or English's Nuggets. The other thing is the Finals teams they played, like prime Bird and his stacked Celtics, were also a handful.

The thing in general is that any team/player who was made a ridiculous amount of Finals like that all mostly had a huge talent advantage. That's the only way it happens. The better that teams best player is makes it easier to have that advantage, of course.

LeBron's Finals record, other than 2011, to me says more about the fact that he shouldn't have been there more than anything about him individually. It is still a team sport, LeBron fans can't use that excuse only when it doesn't favor him. You can't complain about his first run Cleveland teams for him not winning and then ignore his Miami and current Cleveland teams talent when he does.

who has ever ignored the dallas run? Spurs beat them spurs were damn good... everybody in the world including myself says he choked against dallas... Period... Nobody uses that as an excuse... His greatness got those horrid teams that kobe and MJ would have not gotten to the finals to the finals... His finals record outside of the dallas series is an indication of damn good teams or not enough help... dallas series he sucked nuts and choked... had he beaten dallas he is ahead of jordan in almost everyones eyes... the choke job handicaps him and rightfully so.

Bostonjorge
05-26-2017, 01:51 AM
These debates are all just media driven and they just make a ton of money, other than that I do find it amusing. The simplest way I can put this is Lebron has needed 3 vs 2 to win his championships. What I mean by this is that Lebron has needed two guys along with him who could put up 30 on any given night and can average 20, plus he has played way weaker competition while having more stars on his team. Now I know the argument can come out that Shaq played with Kobe and Pippen played with MJ but regardless they only had one other guy on their team besides them that could put up 30 on any given night and could average 20. Not to mention a guy like Kobe with one other super star (Shaq or Pau) has beaten Boston's big 3 in the finals and had to go through the Spurs big 3 for years so in essence he was able to win with 2 vs 3 and I can't see Lebron being able to do that and has not done it in his career.

Great point.

FOXHOUND
05-26-2017, 01:56 AM
who has ever ignored the dallas run? Spurs beat them spurs were damn good... everybody in the world including myself says he choked against dallas... Period... Nobody uses that as an excuse... His greatness got those horrid teams that kobe and MJ would have not gotten to the finals to the finals... His finals record outside of the dallas series is an indication of damn good teams or not enough help... dallas series he sucked nuts and choked... had he beaten dallas he is ahead of jordan in almost everyones eyes... the choke job handicaps him and rightfully so.

Right, I was saying that 2011 was his only Finals loss that you can say truly was his fault as an individual. I think you can argue that the other series could have been closer and more competitive with him playing better, even 2015 to an extent with how many open jumpers they gave him that he bricked, but I don't think he could have done anything to win those series.

Curious, which teams do you think Jordan or Kobe fail to bring to the Finals? 2007, when he played two 41-win teams and a weak 53-win Pistons? 2015, when he played a 40-win Celtics, 50-win Bulls that he had Kyrie for and actually shot terrible in (.399/.100/.800), or the worst 60-win team by far in those Hawks?

Those would be the two Finals runs I would point out as the weakest. 2014 wasn't that strong either but that Pacers team was clearly superior to anyone he faced in those other two. Wade was also really good in that ECF, and Bosh was good too, so I doubt MJ or Kobe have any problems there either.

europagnpilgrim
05-26-2017, 02:09 AM
Nah, AI would've found a way to **** it all up, he wasn't a PG and I dont know how he would handle being the 2nd best player on the team so early in his career.

Well if the Sixers weren't so damn silly at drafting then we could have possibly seen both on the team but for sure Pierce who slipped all the way to 10th as a top level college player with Sixers having the 8th pick and Iverson cried on draft night when it didn't happen and now about 20yrs later Brown coming out publicly and admitting they had Pierce as best player on the board left and they just fumbled the ball on that pick

I would take my chances with AI playing with another HOF'er or two in his young most lethal days, both TMAC/Pierce were there for the taking after the 96' draft in consecutive seasons, that's how you build a team from the scratch(OKC style from 2007-09)

he was a new breed dynamic PG just by his natural size but had SG ability/mentality, he would have easily deferred to players on his level, you can see that by his play In the all star games, he was way more Kidd like then Westbrook in those games, a point guard is suppose to do whats best for the team, like the qb of the squad, and that depends on the talent the squad is putting out there around that PG, same reason why I say CP3 needs to lose his over pass mode at times and go get buckets because that's what the team needs, AI was that guy who could do both in the given scenario

Regardless of who would have been there he would always be the best talent on the team or 1a, all stars recognize and respect all stars, especially when they are on the same team

AI would have ****ed up everything if we let you tell it, similar to CP3 ****ing it up with Clippers by getting injured all the damn time and coming up short, CP3 is just like his idol AI, ****ing it all up

More-Than-Most
05-26-2017, 02:28 AM
Right, I was saying that 2011 was his only Finals loss that you can say truly was his fault as an individual. I think you can argue that the other series could have been closer and more competitive with him playing better, even 2015 to an extent with how many open jumpers they gave him that he bricked, but I don't think he could have done anything to win those series.

Curious, which teams do you think Jordan or Kobe fail to bring to the Finals? 2007, when he played two 41-win teams and a weak 53-win Pistons? 2015, when he played a 40-win Celtics, 50-win Bulls that he had Kyrie for and actually shot terrible in (.399/.100/.800), or the worst 60-win team by far in those Hawks?

Those would be the two Finals runs I would point out as the weakest. 2014 wasn't that strong either but that Pacers team was clearly superior to anyone he faced in those other two. Wade was also really good in that ECF, and Bosh was good too, so I doubt MJ or Kobe have any problems there either.

mostly just his earlier on days... Its not a slight against Jordan or Kobe in any way its just their games dont get the most out of the people around them... I would take Jordans shooting all day... Jordan on deep loaded teams is better than lebron on deep loaded teams but lebron with scrub squads is better than Jordan with scrub squads if that makes sense... Lebron has the magic skill set and can use his power to just over power if need be but that same skill set gets him in trouble when he has help because he becomes comfortable and passive. I dont think Jordan or Kobe do anything with lebrons early teams but I dont think lebron wins 6 championships with those bulls teams either.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 03:10 AM
I also think when talking the greatest of all time there needs to be two lists. Big men and wing/perimeter players. They are completely different.

MarkieMark48
05-26-2017, 08:07 AM
These debates are all just media driven and they just make a ton of money, other than that I do find it amusing. The simplest way I can put this is Lebron has needed 3 vs 2 to win his championships. What I mean by this is that Lebron has needed two guys along with him who could put up 30 on any given night and can average 20, plus he has played way weaker competition while having more stars on his team. Now I know the argument can come out that Shaq played with Kobe and Pippen played with MJ but regardless they only had one other guy on their team besides them that could put up 30 on any given night and could average 20. Not to mention a guy like Kobe with one other super star (Shaq or Pau) has beaten Boston's big 3 in the finals and had to go through the Spurs big 3 for years so in essence he was able to win with 2 vs 3 and I can't see Lebron being able to do that and has not done it in his career.

Not completely true.... OKC had Durant/Westbrook/Harden 3 guys easily capable of dropping 30 averaging 20, beat the spurs with Duncan/Parker/Manu/Kawhi (Chris Bosh scored 0 points in game 7 vs. the spurs and Miami still won) Last year it was 3 vs. 3, and 2 years ago it would have been great to see what would have happened if Kyrie would have stayed healthy because he took the warriors to 6 games 3 vs. 1

MarkieMark48
05-26-2017, 08:28 AM
I didn't mean it that way, of course it's always better to make the Finals. I'm just saying that people should take competition and the advantage of the talent on his teams into consideration when talking about his Finals streak.

Yes, I do think that people should view Kareem and Magic having each other and later Worthy as an enormous advantage to their legacy. There were strong teams in the west, it was just usually the WCF where it came up. What is the toughest team LeBron has played in the east during this streak, the Indiana Pacers? No offense to those Pacers, but I'd much rather play them than have to deal with Hakeem's Rockets, or Gervin's Spurs, or English's Nuggets. The other thing is the Finals teams they played, like prime Bird and his stacked Celtics, were also a handful.
The thing in general is that any team/player who was made a ridiculous amount of Finals like that all mostly had a huge talent advantage. That's the only way it happens. The better that teams best player is makes it easier to have that advantage, of course.

LeBron's Finals record, other than 2011, to me says more about the fact that he shouldn't have been there more than anything about him individually. It is still a team sport, LeBron fans can't use that excuse only when it doesn't favor him. You can't complain about his first run Cleveland teams for him not winning and then ignore his Miami and current Cleveland teams talent when he does.

If youre talking about the 7 straight finals appearances, Id probably say the Celtics with Garnett/Pierce/Allen/Rondo, or possibly the Bulls with Rose/Boozer when Rose was healthy. That Pacers team was good too. All of which happened a while back, I think the east has gotten weaker over the past 5 years and because of the current state of it, people are forgetting there were some good teams in the east 5-7 years ago which is why Lebron/Wade/Bosh all went to Miami. You can say how weak the east is, but Lebron has also beaten some damn good teams in the finals to back up how good they are/were just like those 80's Lakers did. Hawkeye has done the research ( im too lazy:D ) and the 80's west teams were weak just like Lebrons east teams... there were the Lakers, then everyone else

JLynn943
05-26-2017, 09:14 AM
What a joke.

I wish we'd all agree to stop paying attention to anything Chuck says. None of it is worthwhile or insightful. I'd rather listen to Reggie Miller talk about himself than listen to Chuck pretend he's intelligent.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 11:04 AM
I believe if Jordan or Kobe had two other superstars on their teams that could put 30 on any night, they would be even more successful. The one thing I will say too is we never saw Lebron play with just one other superstar/allstar, he went from playing with zero to playing with two, so who knows but either way he would be less successful with just one.

Kobe won 3 titles next to a guy who could put up 30 a night. In fact, Kobe played with a guy for 3 rings that was FAR more dominant than anything Jordan, or James played with.

breakbad
05-26-2017, 11:15 AM
Lol, I'm the biggest Laker and Kobe fan ever, but even I cringe when LeBron loses or I'm on a Kobe video and allllllll the comments are about how Kobe is so much better.

But then I also cringe when I see people on the other extreme saying it's LeBron and it's not even close. Like all great passionate debates where both sides feel so right, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

LeBron is Peyton Manning. He alone is instant contention. Not a 7th or 8th seed and taking the number 1 seed Suns to the brink, but like CHAMPIONSHIP contention. I'm not even sure if the GOAT MJ would have been that all on his own. Or Magic. And we will never know.

But I also ironically was watching Kobe Defensive highlights earlier. Mj and Kawhi and Artest ones, too. Which is why I think Kobe is actually pretty under-rated by the people who say LeBron passed him up with his FIRST Championship and stuff. I don't think anyone would argue that Kobe was the most SKILLED pure scorer ever. Maybe not the best or most dominant scorer, or maybe so, idk, but definitely the most skilled. And the most aggressive, for sure. Which caused him to not be nearly as consistent Defensively; BUT, like on the Redeem Team, if Kobe felt like he could spend his gas on D and not have to be the take over scorer and enter his Avery Bradley mode where he took the other team's best player and rode them all the way up court and was non stop attack Defensively, I think he may just have been the best all around Defensive player ever. Even I as a Laker fan never really appreciated just how dominant he could be on D when he wanted.

Same exact argument goes for his play-making. There were stretches where if he made up his mind to focus all his energy entering Magic mode, he'd average like 15 assists a game for 4 or 5 games, and then go back to scoring 40 and 50. It was crazy.

I don't think LeBron is the all around player that Kobe was, actually. Unpopular sports opinion. Just considering that Kobe could do every single aspect of the game at an elite level. LeBron clearly has never and will never be a sniper shooter.

But the X factor is Bron's size advantage. When you take the most un-stoppable force ever attacking the Basket and give him a Magic Johnson type of mind set and skill set, PLUS an above average to elite level of skill at every other aspect of the game, it's just too much. You can't stop it. Just like most people say Brady is way above Manning, and he may be, but if you're picking one to start your team with and to build around, idk how you pick ANYONE over Robot Manning. I think Manning and James are the only two guys I can think of that no matter what you put around them, no matter how trash the rest of the team is, you are an instant top 2 seed and in the conference championship game every single year. lol

europagnpilgrim
05-26-2017, 11:38 AM
Lol, I'm the biggest Laker and Kobe fan ever, but even I cringe when LeBron loses or I'm on a Kobe video and allllllll the comments are about how Kobe is so much better.

But then I also cringe when I see people on the other extreme saying it's LeBron and it's not even close. Like all great passionate debates where both sides feel so right, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

LeBron is Peyton Manning. He alone is instant contention. Not a 7th or 8th seed and taking the number 1 seed Suns to the brink, but like CHAMPIONSHIP contention. I'm not even sure if the GOAT MJ would have been that all on his own. Or Magic. And we will never know.

But I also ironically was watching Kobe Defensive highlights earlier. Mj and Kawhi and Artest ones, too. Which is why I think Kobe is actually pretty under-rated by the people who say LeBron passed him up with his FIRST Championship and stuff. I don't think anyone would argue that Kobe was the most SKILLED pure scorer ever. Maybe not the best or most dominant scorer, or maybe so, idk, but definitely the most skilled. And the most aggressive, for sure. Which caused him to not be nearly as consistent Defensively; BUT, like on the Redeem Team, if Kobe felt like he could spend his gas on D and not have to be the take over scorer and enter his Avery Bradley mode where he took the other team's best player and rode them all the way up court and was non stop attack Defensively, I think he may just have been the best all around Defensive player ever. Even I as a Laker fan never really appreciated just how dominant he could be on D when he wanted.

Same exact argument goes for his play-making. There were stretches where if he made up his mind to focus all his energy entering Magic mode, he'd average like 15 assists a game for 4 or 5 games, and then go back to scoring 40 and 50. It was crazy.

I don't think LeBron is the all around player that Kobe was, actually. Unpopular sports opinion. Just considering that Kobe could do every single aspect of the game at an elite level. LeBron clearly has never and will never be a sniper shooter.

But the X factor is Bron's size advantage. When you take the most un-stoppable force ever attacking the Basket and give him a Magic Johnson type of mind set and skill set, PLUS an above average to elite level of skill at every other aspect of the game, it's just too much. You can't stop it. Just like most people say Brady is way above Manning, and he may be, but if you're picking one to start your team with and to build around, idk how you pick ANYONE over Robot Manning. I think Manning and James are the only two guys I can think of that no matter what you put around them, no matter how trash the rest of the team is, you are an instant top 2 seed and in the conference championship game every single year. lol

After a few yrs of getting their feet wet I agree with you, but neither had the team as instant contenders when they first arrived but after a few yrs you knew they were coming and staying for a long while

Wilt Chamberlain fits that mold you are talking about though of being a instant contender regardless of the pieces around him

joeystats
05-26-2017, 11:47 AM
Kobe won 3 titles next to a guy who could put up 30 a night. In fact, Kobe played with a guy for 3 rings that was FAR more dominant than anything Jordan, or James played with.

My point is Jordan and Kobe played with one other guy who could drop 30. Never had two guys on their team like that.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 11:53 AM
Not completely true.... OKC had Durant/Westbrook/Harden 3 guys easily capable of dropping 30 averaging 20, beat the spurs with Duncan/Parker/Manu/Kawhi (Chris Bosh scored 0 points in game 7 vs. the spurs and Miami still won) Last year it was 3 vs. 3, and 2 years ago it would have been great to see what would have happened if Kyrie would have stayed healthy because he took the warriors to 6 games 3 vs. 1

Ya he has won 3v3 but never 2v3. And two years ago durant wasn't there so that was more like 2v1 not 3v1. But the point is still he's never done it with just one guy who could drop 30 avg 20. However it is fair that he beat the spurs and the thunder where it was 3v3, but again kobe was doing it with Shaq or Pau, so just one guy and beat those same teams year in and year out.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 12:15 PM
My point is Jordan and Kobe played with one other guy who could drop 30. Never had two guys on their team like that.

who does? Durant? Sure ain't James

JLynn943
05-26-2017, 01:11 PM
who does? Durant? Sure ain't James

Yeah, I don't get it. You take LeBron off of this Cavs team (and last year's) and I think they miss the playoffs entirely.

breakbad
05-26-2017, 01:13 PM
I'm curious to know how everyone would rank what they find most important when deciding if one player is better than the next.

Like, for example, I think I'd rank it:

1. Over-all, individual, ALL AROUND Basketball Skill. Who's better as an all around player? Like, Westbrook and Harden are 1 and 2 in the MVP Ballot, yet I would rather have Kawhi since I believe if you rank every single aspect of playing basketball and combine it all into one big overall ranking, Kawhi would rank higher than them two. Even though I enjoy watching the more Dynamic and Flashy guys play more, well sometimes, because I enjoy watching all time level D as much as anything, lol.
And then I guess bigs have to not be held to this standard since, at least up until today's era, big guys obviously aren't going to be as all around focused as wings. Because I honestly might take Duncan or Shaq over EVERYONE to start a team.

2. Ummmmm, I guess winning would go number 2 when deciding between who is best out of all timers.

3. Then personal accolades and success

4. Ability to carry a team offensively

5. Ability to close out games/clutch gene

MarkieMark48
05-26-2017, 01:44 PM
Ya he has won 3v3 but never 2v3. And two years ago durant wasn't there so that was more like 2v1 not 3v1. But the point is still he's never done it with just one guy who could drop 30 avg 20. However it is fair that he beat the spurs and the thunder where it was 3v3, but again kobe was doing it with Shaq or Pau, so just one guy and beat those same teams year in and year out.

Are you discrediting Green, Curry or Thompson?

Shaq was doing it with Kobe, Kobe did it with Pau :D But that debate is a never ending debate and it is what it is

mightybosstone
05-26-2017, 01:47 PM
I'm curious to know how everyone would rank what they find most important when deciding if one player is better than the next.

Like, for example, I think I'd rank it:

1. Over-all, individual, ALL AROUND Basketball Skill. Who's better as an all around player? Like, Westbrook and Harden are 1 and 2 in the MVP Ballot, yet I would rather have Kawhi since I believe if you rank every single aspect of playing basketball and combine it all into one big overall ranking, Kawhi would rank higher than them two. Even though I enjoy watching the more Dynamic and Flashy guys play more, well sometimes, because I enjoy watching all time level D as much as anything, lol.
And then I guess bigs have to not be held to this standard since, at least up until today's era, big guys obviously aren't going to be as all around focused as wings. Because I honestly might take Duncan or Shaq over EVERYONE to start a team.

2. Ummmmm, I guess winning would go number 2 when deciding between who is best out of all timers.

3. Then personal accolades and success

4. Ability to carry a team offensively

5. Ability to close out games/clutch gene

It sounds to me like your top barometer mean comparing players is essentially the eye test. But how do you judge a player you've never seen? If I ask you to compare Hakeem and Shaq agains Wilt and Kareem, how do you judge the skills of a player you never got to watch? Unless you're in your 60s and 70s and can admit to having seen those guys play or you legitimately have watched a TON of film from those eras, I don't know how you can judge those players accurately.

For me, my barometer order would be something like this:
1. Peak/prime regular season production, judging advanced statistics and basic stats to get a good feel for a player's efficiency and productivity
2. Individual accolades, including MVP, All-NBA, All-Star, All-Defense, etc. to get a sense for how that player stacked up within his respective era
3. Titles and postseason production, although sometimes this can push a guy with inferior stats past a guy with better production, like in the case of Hakeem vs. Robinson. But rings should not be looked at alone without considering a guy's actual production in the playoffs. Guys often win rings despite poor play in the playoffs. Key playoff moments, successes and failures would also be considered here.
4. Longevity, but this could sometimes make or break a guy's resume as well. Bill Walton had an unbelievable peak, but his lack of longevity knocks him out of my top 25.
5. General skill level and eye test. If I can't make a determination at this point, THIS is where I start to use what I've seen and a player's variety of skills on the court to help make a determination. This is such a subjective barometer, because I don't see every game, and I haven't watched every player enough to make a fair judgment of every player. But if I've seen something, or I think a player is generally more skilled than another, I sometimes will use this to help make the determination at that point.
6. Era. I rarely use this barometer. But it's really important, to me, when measuring guys pre-60s. It's why I don't take guys like George Mikan very seriously despite their unbelievable numbers, because the quality of the talent then was just completely inferior to players today. But I rarely use the "X rule was different back then, therefore Y Player is clearly better" argument.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 01:50 PM
who does? Durant? Sure ain't James

Yes Durant and Lebron have but we are only talking about Lebron. Kyrie, Love, Bosh, and Wade have averaged 20 and could drop 30 any night when joining with Lebron. Kobe and Jordan never had that.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 02:02 PM
Are you discrediting Green, Curry or Thompson?

Shaq was doing it with Kobe, Kobe did it with Pau :D But that debate is a never ending debate and it is what it is

I'm not counting Green because I am talking about the guys who could drop 30 and average 20. Obviously when you need good role players to win too but when you have 3 guys who cand score like that you have a good shot. Just look at all the teams that had big 3's. Spurs, Celtics, Heat, Cavs, Warriors, Thunder... they all have been in the finals and/or won championships. The Thunder is the only team that broke it way too early which was obviously stupid. But the teams without the offensive scorers like those teams are more impressive to me, like Kobe's team and Dirks team. They carried their teams to championships with one other offensive scoring weapon. Sure the first 2 was more Shaq then Kobe but their 3rd one and Kobes last 2 he carried them and not to mention he was closing out all the championships even the first 2.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 02:04 PM
Yes Durant and Lebron have but we are only talking about Lebron. Kyrie, Love, Bosh, and Wade have averaged 20 and could drop 30 any night when joining with Lebron. Kobe and Jordan never had that.

wait, LeBron has 2 other guys who go for 30 a night, or can get 30 on any given night?

Hell, plenty of guys have had that dude. I guess you not concerned with defense? Or overall impact to a game? Irving and Love did what before LeBron brought them into the playoffs?

Bosh? haha. Wade? He was very good in 10-11', then what? He turned into Lt Dan during numerous playoff series in Miami.

Look, Kobe was given real chip help for 70% of his prime. So are a lot of all timers, hence why they are there, they have teams around them that put them in position to win huge games on the biggest stage.

LeBron, individually, passed Kobe years ago. At this point, even his career has passed by Kobe with a nice gap.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 02:05 PM
I'm not counting Green because I am talking about the guys who could drop 30 and average 20. Obviously when you need good role players to win too but when you have 3 guys who cand score like that you have a good shot. Just look at all the teams that had big 3's. Spurs, Celtics, Heat, Cavs, Warriors, Thunder... they all have been in the finals and/or won championships. The Thunder is the only team that broke it way too early which was obviously stupid. But the teams without the offensive scorers like those teams are more impressive to me, like Kobe's team and Dirks team. They carried their teams to championships with one other offensive scoring weapon. Sure the first 2 was more Shaq then Kobe but their 3rd one and Kobes last 2 he carried them and not to mention he was closing out all the championships even the first 2.

Love has never averaged 20 a game with the Cavs, let alone 30. Neither did Bosh. What is your point here?

Kobe carried what?

MarkieMark48
05-26-2017, 02:06 PM
I'm not counting Green because I am talking about the guys who could drop 30 and average 20. Obviously when you need good role players to win too but when you have 3 guys who cand score like that you have a good shot. Just look at all the teams that had big 3's. Spurs, Celtics, Heat, Cavs, Warriors, Thunder... they all have been in the finals and/or won championships. The Thunder is the only team that broke it way too early which was obviously stupid. But the teams without the offensive scorers like those teams are more impressive to me, like Kobe's team and Dirks team. They carried their teams to championships with one other offensive scoring weapon. Sure the first 2 was more Shaq then Kobe but their 3rd one and Kobes last 2 he carried them and not to mention he was closing out all the championships even the first 2.

Bosh and Love averaged their 20 when they were not playing with Lebron James. Green has never played on a team without Thompson and Curry, but if he were to go to another team, especially one with him being the main option, I'm fairly confident he could average 20.

regular season MVP voting and NBA Finals MVP Voting says otherwise.... It became more Kobe than Shaq after the 3rd title when they stopped winning championships together

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 02:07 PM
Bosh and Love averaged their 20 when they were not playing with Lebron James. Green has never played on a team without Thompson and Curry, but if he were to go to another team, especially one with him being the main option, I'm fairly confident he could average 20.

and unlike Love/Irving, he would actually defend something. Anything.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 02:09 PM
Are you discrediting Green, Curry or Thompson?

Shaq was doing it with Kobe, Kobe did it with Pau :D But that debate is a never ending debate and it is what it is

the frontcourt trio of Gasol/Bynum/Odom gets so underrated, it's criminal. There was a direct correlation on when the Lakers dominated Boston, and when Boston dominated the Lakers. When the Lakers had that huge frontcourt intact, they won. Hell, Gasol was probably just as important at Kobe in one of their title runs. But whatever

joeystats
05-26-2017, 02:25 PM
wait, LeBron has 2 other guys who go for 30 a night, or can get 30 on any given night?

Hell, plenty of guys have had that dude. I guess you not concerned with defense? Or overall impact to a game? Irving and Love did what before LeBron brought them into the playoffs?

Bosh? haha. Wade? He was very good in 10-11', then what? He turned into Lt Dan during numerous playoff series in Miami.

Look, Kobe was given real chip help for 70% of his prime. So are a lot of all timers, hence why they are there, they have teams around them that put them in position to win huge games on the biggest stage.

LeBron, individually, passed Kobe years ago. At this point, even his career has passed by Kobe with a nice gap.

You got to read bro you are getting too emotional I said could drop 30 any night doesn't mean they average 30.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 02:36 PM
I'm curious to know how everyone would rank what they find most important when deciding if one player is better than the next.

Like, for example, I think I'd rank it:

1. Over-all, individual, ALL AROUND Basketball Skill. Who's better as an all around player? Like, Westbrook and Harden are 1 and 2 in the MVP Ballot, yet I would rather have Kawhi since I believe if you rank every single aspect of playing basketball and combine it all into one big overall ranking, Kawhi would rank higher than them two. Even though I enjoy watching the more Dynamic and Flashy guys play more, well sometimes, because I enjoy watching all time level D as much as anything, lol.
And then I guess bigs have to not be held to this standard since, at least up until today's era, big guys obviously aren't going to be as all around focused as wings. Because I honestly might take Duncan or Shaq over EVERYONE to start a team.

2. Ummmmm, I guess winning would go number 2 when deciding between who is best out of all timers.

3. Then personal accolades and success

4. Ability to carry a team offensively

5. Ability to close out games/clutch gene

ranking a player is a number of factors. Stats, accolades, awards, etc. Wins, playoff wins, titles, are also factored, but it's impossible to win alone, so context matters.

Impact matters more than being versatile, yet not as efficient. It's why Melo isn't the scorer LeBron is, or Kobe isn't the scorer Jordan was. Having the arsenal to use is great, but at the end of the day, efficiency is all that matters.

Clutch is a fabrication of whatever a person is looking to prove to themselves. Clutch isn't even a real thing. It doesn't have a definition, so it can't be used imo. But just in case you care or not, LeBron>Kobe in that too...

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/page/nbarank-clutch-19461638/nba-clutch-rankings-anthony-davis-lebron-james-dirk-nowitzki-kevin-Durant


LeBron James

Cleveland Cavaliers
Clutch WPA: 2.35

His clutch numbers are astounding. James has by far the highest total clutch WPA in the database, netting almost twice as many wins as Bryant in clutch situations (36.36 vs. 20.13). James' epic 2007-08 regular season is the best since 2003-04, delivering a 5.45 clutch WPA thanks to his 10 field goals to tie or take the lead in the final minute. Of the top 15 most-clutch regular seasons in the database, James' name shows up four times; Bryant (two) is the only other name that shows up more than once.

In the postseason, James has shot 15-of-34 (44 percent) on shots to tie or take the lead in the final minute. By comparison, Bryant shot 10-of-37 (27 percent) in such situations, per Basketball Reference.com tracking. In 2015, FiveThirtyEight.com found that James may be the most-clutch playoff shooter of his generation, and that study was done before he won the 2016 Finals against a 73-9 team.

The crazy thing is that James was knocked for so long for seemingly preferring a clutch assist over taking a clutch shot. But this model doesn't even look at assists -- just shots and turnovers. Looking at overall stats, James has a 40.9 PER in clutch situations in the past decade, which is eight points higher than any other player during that time.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 02:39 PM
You got to read bro you are getting too emotional I said could drop 30 any night doesn't mean they average 30.

why does that matter though? Are you telling me that all timers who won a championship haven't had others step up left and right along the way? Meh, that isn't true at all.

I get that you are trying to justify your opinion that LeBron has unmatched help, but that just isn't the case if you actually look at it. He has help, and in today's game, he has great help (lot's of shooters). But so did Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, etc. They all did. Otherwise they are ringless. Hell, what are we going to say about Durant? He legit has 2 guys who rack up 30 all the time, along with another racking up 20 at will, while contending for DPOY...

joeystats
05-26-2017, 02:59 PM
why does that matter though? Are you telling me that all timers who won a championship haven't had others step up left and right along the way? Meh, that isn't true at all.

I get that you are trying to justify your opinion that LeBron has unmatched help, but that just isn't the case if you actually look at it. He has help, and in today's game, he has great help (lot's of shooters). But so did Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, etc. They all did. Otherwise they are ringless. Hell, what are we going to say about Durant? He legit has 2 guys who rack up 30 all the time, along with another racking up 20 at will, while contending for DPOY...

This is my favorite post by you by far. Everybody has had help but I was just simplifying it by looking at the guys that are actual all stars. I think Magic is way overrated anyway, he may of had the most help of all. But regardless Kobe and Jordan played with one all star. Of course they needed help but still one all star. Lebron has not, he has needed more star power in order to win. We could play the game of Throw Kobe and Shaq a Ray Allen, that would have been nasty. Throw Jordan and Pippen a Reggie Miller oh my lord lol. I am just trying to simplify it because obviously we could go back and forth about the little things but at the end of the day the stars win you championships most of the time, and the more you have the bigger chance you have of winning. Durant is the same to me as well as far as playing with 3 all stars, he has even more help then Lebron with star power players.

I look at who you play with and who you play against, simple as that.

Kobe went through:
KG, Nash, Finley, Dirk, Kidd, Iverson, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Ray Allen, Pierce, and I am definitely missing a bunch more.

Lebron has gone through:
Wade, Richard Hamilton, Pierce, Ray Allen, Bosh, Rose, Melo, PG13 and probably missing more as well.

Either way I feel Kobe's path was much much tougher and he played with one all star. Lebrons list is good but not as impressive to me and he has played with two all stars to win.

FlashBolt
05-26-2017, 03:05 PM
You guys are so damn attached to names rather than ACTUAL performance. Okay, LeBron had a prime Wade his first year in Miami. Then what? Wade was far from the same player. Chris Bosh was just exposed as a good player. He got destroyed in the paint by damn near every frontcourt. Hibbert, David West, Tim Duncan, Al Jefferson, KG. Bosh got outplayed by EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE GUYS. Yet, because they are a household name, they must be the cream of the crop. Okay, how did Lakers lose with Karl Malone and GP in the early 2000's? Wow, Kobe lost with Shaq, Malone, and GP? I can play this game all day with you folks. Kobe could barely get into the playoffs with Dwight Howard? Seriously? Throw the name away and look at ACTUAL performance. Wade's reputation as a player doesn't last forever.

The best player LeBron has ever played with (in terms of actual output) is Kyrie. I don't want to discredit Kyrie but he wasn't winning anything and Cavs were still a lottery team with him. How many of you would put Kyrie in your All-Star team in the West, though? He wouldn't even be an All-Star! So you guys talk about how Kyrie is an All-Star and how weak the East is when Cavs would have only ONE All-Star if they played in the West and his name would be LeBron.

I don't even want to imagine how many rings a LeBron coming out of H.S. and starting his career with a PRIME Shaq would win. It would be modern day Magic+KAJ but 10x more deadly due to LeBron>Magic and Shaq>KAJ (due to KAJ being past his prime a bit).

joeystats
05-26-2017, 03:06 PM
I do feel Magic and Lebron are way better with bad teams because of how they facilitate, but wouldn't win a chip. But I also feel that they needed more stars than Kobe or Jordan to win a chip. I would of loved to see LeBron win with just one all star but he jumped from playing with zero to playing with two so we never got to see that. Regardless it would have been harder than it's been.

FlashBolt
05-26-2017, 03:09 PM
This is my favorite post by you by far. Everybody has had help but I was just simplifying it by looking at the guys that are actual all stars. I think Magic is way overrated anyway, he may of had the most help of all. But regardless Kobe and Jordan played with one all star. Of course they needed help but still one all star. Lebron has not, he has needed more star power in order to win. We could play the game of Throw Kobe and Shaq a Ray Allen, that would have been nasty. Throw Jordan and Pippen a Reggie Miller oh my lord lol. I am just trying to simplify it because obviously we could go back and forth about the little things but at the end of the day the stars win you championships most of the time, and the more you have the bigger chance you have of winning. Durant is the same to me as well as far as playing with 3 all stars, he has even more help then Lebron with star power players.

I look at who you play with and who you play against, simple as that.

Kobe went through:
KG, Nash, Finley, Dirk, Kidd, Iverson, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Ray Allen, Pierce, and I am definitely missing a bunch more.

Lebron has gone through:
Wade, Richard Hamilton, Pierce, Ray Allen, Bosh, Rose, Melo, PG13 and probably missing more as well.

Either way I feel Kobe's path was much much tougher and he played with one all star. Lebrons list is good but not as impressive to me and he has played with two all stars to win.

LMFAO, look at your blatant attempt at overstating what Kobe went through. Your hand selected opponents to try and make Kobe seem superior is utter disgrace. Yeah, we're just going to ignore that LeBron played against KD, Curry, Duncan as well? LMAO.

Secondly, Kobe didn't have one all-star. Kobe had a player who:

1) Was better than him.
2) Regarded as one of the most dominant if not top two (Wilt/Shaq).
3) Was the Finals MVP in their threepeat.
4) is regarded as a top 5-7 player.
5) Many rank Shaq above Kobe.

But yeah, Shaq is just an "all-star." You are delusional and bad at whatever it is you're trying to prove. LeBron would be handing out L's to any team if he had prime Shaq. Kobe would have committed another rape if he had to play with Delonte West longer than ten games.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 03:12 PM
You guys are so damn attached to names rather than ACTUAL performance. Okay, LeBron had a prime Wade his first year in Miami. Then what? Wade was far from the same player. Chris Bosh was just exposed as a good player. He got destroyed in the paint by damn near every frontcourt. Hibbert, David West, Tim Duncan, Al Jefferson, KG. Bosh got outplayed by EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE GUYS. Yet, because they are a household name, they must be the cream of the crop. Okay, how did Lakers lose with Karl Malone and GP in the early 2000's? Wow, Kobe lost with Shaq, Malone, and GP? I can play this game all day with you folks. Kobe could barely get into the playoffs with Dwight Howard? Seriously? Throw the name away and look at ACTUAL performance. Wade's reputation as a player doesn't last forever.

The best player LeBron has ever played with (in terms of actual output) is Kyrie. I don't want to discredit Kyrie but he wasn't winning anything and Cavs were still a lottery team with him. How many of you would put Kyrie in your All-Star team in the West, though? He wouldn't even be an All-Star! So you guys talk about how Kyrie is an All-Star and how weak the East is when Cavs would have only ONE All-Star if they played in the West and his name would be LeBron.

I don't even want to imagine how many rings a LeBron coming out of H.S. and starting his career with a PRIME Shaq would win. It would be modern day Magic+KAJ but 10x more deadly due to LeBron>Magic and Shaq>KAJ (due to KAJ being past his prime a bit).

Wade still average 22 ppg through all the years he played with Lebron and Kyrie has averaged 22 ppg while playing with Lebron and that's a fact, look it up, though you have to do some math yourself like I did. Kobe losing with Malone and GP was unacceptable for sure. Kobe was on his way out when he got Dwight anyway so I can't compare that because Lebron isn't on his way out yet.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 03:17 PM
This is my favorite post by you by far. Everybody has had help but I was just simplifying it by looking at the guys that are actual all stars. I think Magic is way overrated anyway, he may of had the most help of all. But regardless Kobe and Jordan played with one all star. Of course they needed help but still one all star. Lebron has not, he has needed more star power in order to win. We could play the game of Throw Kobe and Shaq a Ray Allen, that would have been nasty. Throw Jordan and Pippen a Reggie Miller oh my lord lol. I am just trying to simplify it because obviously we could go back and forth about the little things but at the end of the day the stars win you championships most of the time, and the more you have the bigger chance you have of winning. Durant is the same to me as well as far as playing with 3 all stars, he has even more help then Lebron with star power players.

I look at who you play with and who you play against, simple as that.

Kobe went through:
KG, Nash, Finley, Dirk, Kidd, Iverson, Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Ray Allen, Pierce, and I am definitely missing a bunch more.

Lebron has gone through:
Wade, Richard Hamilton, Pierce, Ray Allen, Bosh, Rose, Melo, PG13 and probably missing more as well.

Either way I feel Kobe's path was much much tougher and he played with one all star. Lebrons list is good but not as impressive to me and he has played with two all stars to win.

Roster strength goes way past just playing with a single all star. How about the Phil Jackson versus Mike Brown advantage? Or Phil versus Spo? All stars are funny to me, you look at Atlanta a couple of years ago, they had 4 all stars. Like cmon...

Roster strength, and hell, even fit, need to be examined.

We can easily say that LeBron's first 7 years, when he played with a dumpster fire, have no comparison when it comes to what Kobe, Duncan, Magic, or Bird enjoyed throughout their years (even factoring in the Lakers down years it's still true). MJ is similar, though his FO got him help finally, and leaving in FA wasn't much of a thing back then.

Outside of 2010-11' Wade, I don't think LeBron played with anyone on both Shaq, and Gasol's level (Gasol from the chip years). Even his help outside Wade, which means Bosh, Love, and Irving, did what exactly before they got to play with LeBron? They did nothing actually.

I also think the depth and experience of Kobe's teams get overlooked.

When it comes to the conference argument, we have to be fair. Outside going to a couple of west teams that never seem to get it right (like my beloved puppies), if LeBron were out west, he would have probably had a lot more roster help. The higher percentage of better players were out west during his tenure, so why wouldn't that just give him more help now? So it's a double edged sword playing that card.

I feel LeBron's "path" to a championship has always been more difficult than most the other guys we rank him with that won a lot. He ALWAYS has to be the best player in the game, in the series, or his team loses. He has never had the luxury of being able to go 6-24 from the field in a game 7, and his team wins. Imagine the pressure LeBron has faced (and he asked for it, so no sympathy), to win titles, and succeed. I have never seen a player asked to do so much individually in a team sport myself, which is why I went from indifferent back in 2008, to a fan of his. He has his rings, his place in the top 5 ever is achieved, so I could care less if he wins ever again. Just imagine what his ring count is if he were given incredible help like Kobe, Magic, Bird, or Duncan were right away..

At the end of the day, which player do you want to have on your team to win, Kobe or LeBron? That is your answer to this thread, it's that simple.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 03:18 PM
LMFAO, look at your blatant attempt at overstating what Kobe went through. Your hand selected opponents to try and make Kobe seem superior is utter disgrace. Yeah, we're just going to ignore that LeBron played against KD, Curry, Duncan as well? LMAO.

Secondly, Kobe didn't have one all-star. Kobe had a player who:

1) Was better than him.
2) Regarded as one of the most dominant if not top two (Wilt/Shaq).
3) Was the Finals MVP in their threepeat.
4) is regarded as a top 5-7 player.
5) Many rank Shaq above Kobe.

But yeah, Shaq is just an "all-star." You are delusional and bad at whatever it is you're trying to prove. LeBron would be handing out L's to any team if he had prime Shaq. Kobe would have committed another rape if he had to play with Delonte West longer than ten games.

You are correct I did not add those names to Lebrons list and should have and I'm sure I also left out names on Kobe's list. But people also discredit the years without Shaq.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 03:18 PM
I do feel Magic and Lebron are way better with bad teams because of how they facilitate, but wouldn't win a chip. But I also feel that they needed more stars than Kobe or Jordan to win a chip. I would of loved to see LeBron win with just one all star but he jumped from playing with zero to playing with two so we never got to see that. Regardless it would have been harder than it's been.

I think you care too much about "all star". Look at the long list of all stars, there are guys that will make you scratch your head. I mean there is quite a difference between peak Shaq all star, and Wally Szczerbiak the all star haha.

If you want to use an arbitrary award, maybe all NBA selections?

FlashBolt
05-26-2017, 03:25 PM
Wade still average 22 ppg through all the years he played with Lebron and Kyrie has averaged 22 ppg while playing with Lebron and that's a fact, look it up, though you have to do some math yourself like I did. Kobe losing with Malone and GP was unacceptable for sure. Kobe was on his way out when he got Dwight anyway so I can't compare that because Lebron isn't on his way out yet.

1) 22 PPG doesn't justify being a great player. By your logic, DeRozan is a top five player this season. Stop looking at empty stats. Anyone with an eye could see Wade's athleticism prevented him from taking over games the way he used to be able to. His scoring was pick-and-choose rather than "I'm scoring against anyone" during those years. Wade was injured for like 30% of those seasons - which quantifies as not a 100% Wade.
2) You can't compare Kyrie to Wade. Here's why: Kyrie is a much better player than 2011-2014 Wade. He can shoot and get his own shot. Literally, those are the two reasons why Kyrie>2011-2014 Wade. Wade couldn't get his own shot in those years. Yeah, he can do it in spurts but it was usually LeBron having to facilitate an offense to get Wade going whereas Kyrie does it more organically.
3) Stop it, dude. GP and Malone were way past their prime. My point in saying that is that a reputation doesn't supersede actual performance. Wade's reputation is a top 25 player. But he was far from that in 2011-2014 and that's a fact.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 03:37 PM
1) 22 PPG doesn't justify being a great player. By your logic, DeRozan is a top five player this season. Stop looking at empty stats. Anyone with an eye could see Wade's athleticism prevented him from taking over games the way he used to be able to. His scoring was pick-and-choose rather than "I'm scoring against anyone" during those years. Wade was injured for like 30% of those seasons - which quantifies as not a 100% Wade.
2) You can't compare Kyrie to Wade. Here's why: Kyrie is a much better player than 2011-2014 Wade. He can shoot and get his own shot. Literally, those are the two reasons why Kyrie>2011-2014 Wade. Wade couldn't get his own shot in those years. Yeah, he can do it in spurts but it was usually LeBron having to facilitate an offense to get Wade going whereas Kyrie does it more organically.
3) Stop it, dude. GP and Malone were way past their prime. My point in saying that is that a reputation doesn't supersede actual performance. Wade's reputation is a top 25 player. But he was far from that in 2011-2014 and that's a fact.

Like I keep saying I was just simplifying it or I would be on here for 12 hours going back and forth about the little things. I have plenty more ammo just no more energy lol. People get so emotional over this stuff, I said my piece and have my opinion brother. I respect your opinion, to each their own.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 03:42 PM
I think you care too much about "all star". Look at the long list of all stars, there are guys that will make you scratch your head. I mean there is quite a difference between peak Shaq all star, and Wally Szczerbiak the all star haha.

If you want to use an arbitrary award, maybe all NBA selections?

That's why originally I was saying guys who could put up 30 on any night and average 20. All star was just easier to say for people who may of been confused.

FlashBolt
05-26-2017, 03:47 PM
That's why originally I was saying guys who could put up 30 on any night and average 20. All star was just easier to say for people who may of been confused.

I think his argument is that you're using a generic label in All-Star rather than actual player performance and impact. Like, if the top 100 players in the league today all disappeared, there will STILL be All-Stars in the league. So there's obviously a separation of talent. I mean, you said Shaq was just another All-Star, did you not? Kobe "only had one All-Star." Yeah, that's true. But how many top ten players have ANOTHER top-ten player as their teammate?

MJ
Magic
LeBron
Duncan
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Hakeem

Only Magic did outside of Shaq+Kobe. Now, reverse that. How many rings does MJ and Shaq get? LeBron and Duncan? Duncan and Magic? We'd be looking at an infinite amount of rings. And that's not to discredit Kobe. Kobe is a deserving top ten player. But let's stop pretending he didn't have more help than LeBron did. Because he did. And it was against much inferior teams.. Look at the Warriors today. They don't exactly look like the Nets/Pistons. Try the equivalent of Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics level good. Maybe better.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 03:56 PM
That's why originally I was saying guys who could put up 30 on any night and average 20. All star was just easier to say for people who may of been confused.

I just think there is way too much disparity in one all star versus another. Atlanta had 4 all stars in 2015. GS had 4 this year. Are they equal?

Bartlee23
05-26-2017, 04:08 PM
That's why originally I was saying guys who could put up 30 on any night and average 20. All star was just easier to say for people who may of been confused.

I get your points and they are valid. Lebron has played with exactly what you said and his path has been much easier. You're arguing with a closet Lebron worshipper (who states Jordan is the best but will defend LeBron any chance given) and another who spews useless information to attempt to sound educated. I would bet most didn't even see Kobe's full career and just state "he played with Shaq" as an intelligent argument. I get what you're saying and I agree but I have overall Lebron as the better player but change teams/eras ???

FlashBolt
05-26-2017, 04:17 PM
I get your points and they are valid. Lebron has played with exactly what you said and his path has been much easier. You're arguing with a closet Lebron worshipper (who states Jordan is the best but will defend LeBron any chance given) and another who spews useless information to attempt to sound educated. I would bet most didn't even see Kobe's full career and just state "he played with Shaq" as an intelligent argument. I get what you're saying and I agree but I have overall Lebron as the better player but change teams/eras ???

Yes, when you play with another top ten player of all-time, then by default, you have had more help than 99.99999% of the league. Did you not realize that? You're comparing Wade and Irving to Shaq. Does this get any more stupid? Like, outside of 2004-2006, when did Kobe not have help?

WaDe03
05-26-2017, 05:33 PM
1) 22 PPG doesn't justify being a great player. By your logic, DeRozan is a top five player this season. Stop looking at empty stats. Anyone with an eye could see Wade's athleticism prevented him from taking over games the way he used to be able to. His scoring was pick-and-choose rather than "I'm scoring against anyone" during those years. Wade was injured for like 30% of those seasons - which quantifies as not a 100% Wade.
2) You can't compare Kyrie to Wade. Here's why: Kyrie is a much better player than 2011-2014 Wade. He can shoot and get his own shot. Literally, those are the two reasons why Kyrie>2011-2014 Wade. Wade couldn't get his own shot in those years. Yeah, he can do it in spurts but it was usually LeBron having to facilitate an offense to get Wade going whereas Kyrie does it more organically.
3) Stop it, dude. GP and Malone were way past their prime. My point in saying that is that a reputation doesn't supersede actual performance. Wade's reputation is a top 25 player. But he was far from that in 2011-2014 and that's a fact.

2011 Wade ***** on Kyrie, 2012 Wade is better, you may have an argument for the other 2 years but Wades efficiency also shot up pretty high those years.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 05:35 PM
2011 Wade ***** on Kyrie, 2012 Wade is better, you may have an argument for the other 2 years but Wades efficiency also shot up pretty high those years.

10-11' Wade was still an elite player. It's the single playoff run that kills LeBron.

After that, Wade had some very good series, and some periods of time his body just quit. He was pretty bad in the 2013 playoffs, and overall his body just failed him after 11' for too many portions of time. Sucks

WaDe03
05-26-2017, 05:43 PM
10-11' Wade was still an elite player. It's the single playoff run that kills LeBron.

After that, Wade had some very good series, and some periods of time his body just quit. He was pretty bad in the 2013 playoffs, and overall his body just failed him after 11' for too many portions of time. Sucks

Yep, it's a damn shame. I believe that's when the "having one meniscus removed from his knee" thing really caught up to him. Luckily those knee problems seem to be in the past and hopefully he can end on a healthy note on a contender.

I would still take 2012 Wade over Kyrie too.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2017, 05:47 PM
Yep, it's a damn shame. I believe that's when the "having one meniscus removed from his knee" thing really caught up to him. Luckily those knee problems seem to be in the past and hopefully he can end on a healthy note on a contender.

I would still take 2012 Wade over Kyrie too.

I think Irving's playoffs last year were better than Wade's in 2012. More efficient, and he played very well offensively against the Dub's

WaDe03
05-26-2017, 05:52 PM
I think Irving's playoffs last year were better than Wade's in 2012. More efficient, and he played very well offensively against the Dub's

I don't remember much from Irving in those playoffs, just the last 3 or 4 games so I'm not sure. Wade was still a much better defender and a big part in shutting down Harden.

joeystats
05-26-2017, 09:49 PM
I get your points and they are valid. Lebron has played with exactly what you said and his path has been much easier. You're arguing with a closet Lebron worshipper (who states Jordan is the best but will defend LeBron any chance given) and another who spews useless information to attempt to sound educated. I would bet most didn't even see Kobe's full career and just state "he played with Shaq" as an intelligent argument. I get what you're saying and I agree but I have overall Lebron as the better player but change teams/eras ???

I also believe there are so many ways to dissect it that people will never all agree. For example I think Lebron is the most "talented" player to ever play the game. But saying "the best" can mean so many different things, it's up to ones interpretation. I just think it's funny how emotional people get about it, you at least state your opinion and that's that. I respect that. And yes the whole played with Shaq thing gets old too, no one mentions the 3 finals appearances in a row with Pau while having to go through San Antonio and all the other teams in the west. Also each player needs a team designed around them to their strengths. I believe the Warriors and Cavs are better teams than the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe or the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen, and that's not because I think Lebron or Durant is better than Kobe or Jordan, they just have more star power to me that those teams couldn't match IMO. It's nice to have 2 other guys to rely on if you are having an off night as opposed to relying on 1 guy.

Mr.B
05-27-2017, 01:15 PM
You remember when Phill coached Kobe? Phill use to use the media to his advantage as well. Like when Phill said that Kobe can ask for a trade if he's not happy. Obviously they weren't going to trade him. The same way Kobe would not waive his no trade clause. It just gets results. Zen master.

Actually it's pretty common knowledge that there was a deal on the table that had the Lakers willing to send Kobe to Dallas for Dirk. Kobe wouldn't waive his no trade clause though because the only reason he was going to agree to go to Dallas was to play with Dirk. Cuban even acknowledged this potential trade this past season.

Tg11
05-27-2017, 01:33 PM
LeBron can I see him surpassing Kobe? It is possible but as far as rings Kobe has more he has 5 and LeBron only has 3 for now but that doesn't mean that LeBron can't or won't surpass Kobe he ultimately will I mean if he can win his 4th ring by beating the Warriors then I will say that LeBron will surpass Kobe no problem hell he is on his way already

Bostonjorge
05-27-2017, 02:03 PM
I think his argument is that you're using a generic label in All-Star rather than actual player performance and impact. Like, if the top 100 players in the league today all disappeared, there will STILL be All-Stars in the league. So there's obviously a separation of talent. I mean, you said Shaq was just another All-Star, did you not? Kobe "only had one All-Star." Yeah, that's true. But how many top ten players have ANOTHER top-ten player as their teammate?

MJ
Magic
LeBron
Duncan
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Hakeem

Only Magic did outside of Shaq+Kobe. Now, reverse that. How many rings does MJ and Shaq get? LeBron and Duncan? Duncan and Magic? We'd be looking at an infinite amount of rings. And that's not to discredit Kobe. Kobe is a deserving top ten player. But let's stop pretending he didn't have more help than LeBron did. Because he did. And it was against much inferior teams.. Look at the Warriors today. They don't exactly look like the Nets/Pistons. Try the equivalent of Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics level good. Maybe better.
Magic and KAJ are both top 5 goats and they couldn't get the three peat. A back to back is also amazing and their is a small list of players who achieved even that. My point is teaming up 2 top 10 goats don't guarantee anything when 2 top 5 goats couldn't get you Kobe or Jordan results.

joeystats
05-27-2017, 03:29 PM
Magic and KAJ are both top 5 goats and they couldn't get the three peat. A back to back is also amazing and their is a small list of players who achieved even that. My point is teaming up 2 top 10 goats don't guarantee anything when 2 top 5 goats couldn't get you Kobe or Jordan results.

:clap:

Federal Reserve
05-27-2017, 04:42 PM
Lebron has 3 FMV against Kobe's 2. There is no real argument for Kobe being in the top 10 greatest players of all time. (He falls in the 11-13 range.)

FlashBolt
05-27-2017, 04:56 PM
:clap:

Magic didn't even play with a prime KAJ... Kobe played with a prime Shaq... And who did Magic and KAJ go up against? Only Larry Bird's Celtics..

Bartlee23
05-27-2017, 05:24 PM
I also believe there are so many ways to dissect it that people will never all agree. For example I think Lebron is the most "talented" player to ever play the game. But saying "the best" can mean so many different things, it's up to ones interpretation. I just think it's funny how emotional people get about it, you at least state your opinion and that's that. I respect that. And yes the whole played with Shaq thing gets old too, no one mentions the 3 finals appearances in a row with Pau while having to go through San Antonio and all the other teams in the west. Also each player needs a team designed around them to their strengths. I believe the Warriors and Cavs are better teams than the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe or the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen, and that's not because I think Lebron or Durant is better than Kobe or Jordan, they just have more star power to me that those teams couldn't match IMO. It's nice to have 2 other guys to rely on if you are having an off night as opposed to relying on 1 guy.

Couldn't agree more..... people get WAY too emotional about it. The funny thing thought is most people who post here didn't even see a prime Jordan,Bird or Magic play ( and I even question Kobe ) yet they are " experts" on every subject.

My only jab at LeBron is his heart. He doesn't seem to give 100% effort all the time. If you actually saw Jordan,Bird,Magic or Kobe play all they wanted to do was win and it was obvious. LeBron plays when LeBron wants to play and is one of the greatest talents ever. If I'm starting a team, I'm taking those 4 ahead of LeBron thought because I know what I'm getting. Doesn't mean they're all better than LeBron, just my opinion of what I've witnessed since I've seen them all play.

Just like the best team I saw IMO is the 86 Boston team. They could beat you in so many different ways and were IMO the best rounded team I've ever seen. The Warriors and Cavs definitely have more " star power ' than the teams you listed and again you are correct, " it's nice to have 2 other guys to rely on if you are having an off night as opposed to relying on 1 guy." The 80's were all about just a couple teams but with free agency three-point shooting and " ring chasers " the NBA has become quite boring from the pathetic all-star game to the worst playoffs I've seen. To each their own........

Bartlee23
05-27-2017, 05:25 PM
Magic and KAJ are both top 5 goats and they couldn't get the three peat. A back to back is also amazing and their is a small list of players who achieved even that. My point is teaming up 2 top 10 goats don't guarantee anything when 2 top 5 goats couldn't get you Kobe or Jordan results.

Good post.

D Blue987
05-27-2017, 05:28 PM
Kobe doesnt wait for it to get tough... he forces his way to a team that is stacked so he doesnt have to go through an impossible road like lebron did... then after the winning stops kobe demands a trade from the team unless they steal paul gasol in his prime etc etc etc..... then when he starts his decline he forces the front office to get dwight howard/steve Nash that hurts the team for years while forcing a force of nature off the team because he wants all the credit.....

I love the kobe work ethic but starting a team from scratch kobe is far from someone a smart team would take because the losing will eat at him and he will bail the first chance he gets like he threatened to do with the lakers after Shaq left.

Sounds like you clearly let your hate cloud your judgement. lmao! yikes. Kobe played his entire career with one team. Lebron bailed on the Cavs when he couldn't win to form a super team of his own and only returned to the Cavs when another one was provided for him. lol. No great player can do it on their own. They always need help thats why its a team sport with 5 guys on the court at one time. lol. Im not even saying Kobe is better than Lebron but this post is mind numbing Charlamagne "Donkey of the Day" type crap. hahaha.

Jamiecballer
05-27-2017, 05:44 PM
Kobe played way above average but of course the series before Kobe was elite against the best team in the NBA and real finals. Lakers didn't need Shaq to average 17 rebounds or 36 points a game to win those finals. Shaq was just under matched so lakers exploited it. Kobe still left his mark. Future success shows Kobe could of drove all those titles home.
Love the logic here. Because he became a great player later, we can disregard what actually happened back then. Wish we could apply that logic to LeBron also.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

joeystats
05-27-2017, 06:06 PM
Sounds like you clearly let your hate cloud your judgement. lmao! yikes. Kobe played his entire career with one team. Lebron bailed on the Cavs when he couldn't win to form a super team of his own and only returned to the Cavs when another one was provided for him. lol. No great player can do it on their own. They always need help thats why its a team sport with 5 guys on the court at one time. lol. Im not even saying Kobe is better than Lebron but this post is mind numbing Charlamagne "Donkey of the Day" type crap. hahaha.

Lol "Donkey of the Day"

joeystats
05-27-2017, 06:19 PM
Couldn't agree more..... people get WAY too emotional about it. The funny thing thought is most people who post here didn't even see a prime Jordan,Bird or Magic play ( and I even question Kobe ) yet they are " experts" on every subject.

My only jab at LeBron is his heart. He doesn't seem to give 100% effort all the time. If you actually saw Jordan,Bird,Magic or Kobe play all they wanted to do was win and it was obvious. LeBron plays when LeBron wants to play and is one of the greatest talents ever. If I'm starting a team, I'm taking those 4 ahead of LeBron thought because I know what I'm getting. Doesn't mean they're all better than LeBron, just my opinion of what I've witnessed since I've seen them all play.

Just like the best team I saw IMO is the 86 Boston team. They could beat you in so many different ways and were IMO the best rounded team I've ever seen. The Warriors and Cavs definitely have more " star power ' than the teams you listed and again you are correct, " it's nice to have 2 other guys to rely on if you are having an off night as opposed to relying on 1 guy." The 80's were all about just a couple teams but with free agency three-point shooting and " ring chasers " the NBA has become quite boring from the pathetic all-star game to the worst playoffs I've seen. To each their own........

Lebron is so good and can get his numbers any night without much effort. I remember in the finals last year there were two different games where he had really good numbers but if you actually watched his body language he was not close to giving 100%. He literally looked disinterested, but when you look back on the game and you see the triple double or the 30+ points it is looked at as a good game, which it is statistically. However I believe if he actually gave 100% in those two games his numbers would be even better and they would have won that series in 6 without ever being down 3-1 to begin with. He's one of the greatest but he would be the best if he gave 100% all the time. Like you said that's the knock on him which is a big deal since you have to nit pick when comparing the greats of all time. Also I feel old now since I realize how many people didn't actually watch live games of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe. People who haven't don't understand the feeling you got when watching them, even highlights don't do them justice.

nastynice
05-28-2017, 01:48 AM
Lebron is so good and can get his numbers any night without much effort. I remember in the finals last year there were two different games where he had really good numbers but if you actually watched his body language he was not close to giving 100%. He literally looked disinterested, but when you look back on the game and you see the triple double or the 30+ points it is looked at as a good game, which it is statistically. However I believe if he actually gave 100% in those two games his numbers would be even better and they would have won that series in 6 without ever being down 3-1 to begin with. He's one of the greatest but he would be the best if he gave 100% all the time. Like you said that's the knock on him which is a big deal since you have to nit pick when comparing the greats of all time. Also I feel old now since I realize how many people didn't actually watch live games of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe. People who haven't don't understand the feeling you got when watching them, even highlights don't do them justice.

Yea. That closer feeling that Jordan had, where you know where the ball is going but there's just nothing you can do to stop it, there's been nothing even remotely close since then.

Mr.B
05-28-2017, 06:22 AM
Magic didn't even play with a prime KAJ... Kobe played with a prime Shaq... And who did Magic and KAJ go up against? Only Larry Bird's Celtics..

Only Bird's Celtics? Bird's Celtics won 3 NBA Titles, they were a pretty formidable team to go against. Those Celtic teams would likely beat the current Cavs team and would give the Warriors a damn good fight.

Bostonjorge
05-30-2017, 06:04 PM
Kobe had the hardest road compared to anyone. The west alone had amazing teams like defending champs and many league MVP's. The Boston team he played in the finals was a special team led by a special KG at the time.

Kobe played 8 league MVP's during his career. How did he respond? With a three peat(only Jordan and Russell have done that till this day) and a back to back. Playing that many MVP's and still winning 5 titles proves he was the real MVP and more importantly the best player on the plant at the time.

JordansBulls
05-30-2017, 06:36 PM
Magic didn't even play with a prime KAJ... Kobe played with a prime Shaq... And who did Magic and KAJ go up against? Only Larry Bird's Celtics..

Kareem was league mvp the year Magic came in.

Jeffy25
05-30-2017, 11:15 PM
LeBron can I see him surpassing Kobe? It is possible but as far as rings Kobe has more he has 5 and LeBron only has 3 for now but that doesn't mean that LeBron can't or won't surpass Kobe he ultimately will I mean if he can win his 4th ring by beating the Warriors then I will say that LeBron will surpass Kobe no problem hell he is on his way already

Don't worry, he passed Kobe years ago. If you are concerned about how or why though, those Finals MVP's speaks more than the rings themselves.