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View Full Version : LeBron vs Jordan! Who's better? Convince me.....



WaDe03
05-20-2017, 12:28 PM
We have the thread asking if this Cavs team would be better with LeBron or Jordan, I'm throwing that scenario out the window and simply asking who is the better player out of these two guys. They're both unreal and what we're seeing and have been seeing from LeBron is just absolutely ridiculous.

You have Jordan who is known as the GOAT by most and we all know he's 6-0 in the finals, one of if not the most dominant players we've seen, ridiculous peak and longevity, etc.

You have LeBron who has 3 rings, about to be 7 straight finals appearances, about to be in 8 out of the last 10 finals, absolute freak of nature, etc.

I'm to the point now where I'm not going to deny what I've been seeing from LeBron and am now on the fence about who the better player is. These are my top 2 players ever and I figured there would be some fun, intense discussion going on in here as I don't think anyone can deny LeBrons greatness any more.

Convince me.......

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2017, 12:52 PM
Well it was close but MJ totally left for FA and joined Pippen and Rodman and created a Super team. When that barely worked he bounced to make another Super team in a pathetic Eastern Conference.


Lebron is a great player and one of the best this generation no doubt. But Greatest Player and Cometitior ever? Please.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 01:25 PM
Well it was close but MJ totally left for FA and joined Pippen and Rodman and created a Super team. When that barely worked he bounced to make another Super team in a pathetic Eastern Conference.


Lebron is a great player and one of the best this generation no doubt. But Greatest Player and Cometitior ever? Please.

Where do you rank LeBron then? The East was weak when Jordan was playing too and LeBron has arguably faced tougher competition in the finals. No team Jordan face was better than last years Warriors for sure.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 01:27 PM
Who voted LeBron? What are your thougts behind it?

TRIUMPHATOR
05-20-2017, 01:28 PM
This will be a forever argument and will be very difficult to ever conclude.

For fun sake, I do do believe 5 LeBron's on the court would beat 5 MJ's. And it would be an interesting match between 5 Magic's vs 5 LeBron's.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 01:34 PM
Didn't Jordan do nearly everything LeBron did in less time and never had a list of choke jobs like Bron?

DarkKnight
05-20-2017, 01:38 PM
Didn't Jordan do nearly everything LeBron did in less time and never had a list of choke jobs like Bron?

I don't remember MJ quitting... against the Celtics 2010

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 01:40 PM
Didn't Jordan do nearly everything LeBron did in less time and never had a list of choke jobs like Bron?

He may have won 6 times but he also had his fair share of failures. It's not like he won every year.

Was Jordan facing tougher competition? Was there more talent back then?

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 01:40 PM
This will be a forever argument and will be very difficult to ever conclude.

For fun sake, I do do believe 5 LeBron's on the court would beat 5 MJ's. And it would be an interesting match between 5 Magic's vs 5 LeBron's.

That would be fun to watch lol.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 01:41 PM
I also meant to make the thread public, are mods able to change that? Let's hold each other accountable in arguably the greatest sports debate of all time!

LOb0
05-20-2017, 01:44 PM
I don't remember MJ quitting... against the Celtics 2010

Or the Mavs in 2011

Or just casually passing the ball against the Spurs in 2014 as they're on a run.

Oh and thank Christ Kyrie hit that shot, Because Bron couldn't buy a basket in the last 4 minutes of that finals last year.

Not only did Jordan do more in less time with better stats, the blemishes on his record are not even comparable to LeBron. Nor did Jordan have to run to play with a guy that already won a title.

LeBron will finish a semi distant number 2. Especially once he's crushed by this Warriors team.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 01:47 PM
He may have won 6 times but he also had his fair share of failures. It's not like he won every year.

Was Jordan facing tougher competition? Was there more talent back then?

It's how you lose that is important. Like Bron losing to the 2007 Spurs shouldn't count at all towards his legacy or 2009 vs Orlando when he did everything he could. Nor should Jordan's early playoff losses.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 01:50 PM
Or the Mavs in 2011

Or just casually passing the ball against the Spurs in 2014 as they're on a run.

Oh and thank Christ Kyrie hit that shot, Because Bron couldn't buy a basket in the last 4 minutes of that finals last year.

Not only did Jordan do more in less time with better stats, the blemishes on his record are not even comparable to LeBron. Nor did Jordan have to run to play with a guy that already won a title.

LeBron will finish a semi distant number 2. Especially once he's crushed by this Warriors team.

This Warriors team would probably beat Jordan's teams too though. This is the most stacked team we've ever seen. It's a damn cheat code and Durant is a *****.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 01:54 PM
This Warriors team would probably beat Jordan's teams too though. This is the most stacked team we've ever seen. It's a damn cheat code and Durant is a *****.

ehh Beat Jordan's team.... If the Bulls were adjusted to today's era and Jordan had deadeye shooters around him. You got Pip on KD and Jordan on Curry, Rodman absolutely crushing them on the boards and murdering Draymond.

I think the Bulls would win that series in 6 actually.

Jamiecballer
05-20-2017, 01:56 PM
This will be a forever argument and will be very difficult to ever conclude.

For fun sake, I do do believe 5 LeBron's on the court would beat 5 MJ's. And it would be an interesting match between 5 Magic's vs 5 LeBron's.
This is an interesting way of looking at it. I agree and for anyone else who does but would still answer Jordan I would have to ask how they justify it...

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 01:59 PM
ehh Beat Jordan's team.... If the Bulls were adjusted to today's era and Jordan had deadeye shooters around him. You got Pip on KD and Jordan on Curry, Rodman absolutely crushing them on the boards and murdering Draymond.

I think the Bulls would win that series in 6 actually.

Idk we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I just think they have 2 much fire power. Durant will still get his 20, Curry will use the **** out of screens, and him running around may tire Jordan some. Rodman will beat the **** out of green and they'll both be suspended and the Warriors bench is deeper imo.

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2017, 02:02 PM
Lobo owning this thread.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 02:04 PM
Idk we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I just think they have 2 much fire power. Durant will still get his 20, Curry will use the **** out of screens, and him running around may tire Jordan some. Rodman will beat the **** out of green and they'll both be suspended and the Warriors bench is deeper imo.

lol at Curry or flat foot Thompson guarding Jordan in the post. Zaza in the paint. Jordan would leave them in flames on offense. Jordan doesn't get tired, pretty much everyone knows that. Go back and watch how he played both ends like a complete mad man.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 02:12 PM
lol at Curry or flat foot Thompson guarding Jordan in the post. Zaza in the paint. Jordan would leave them in flames on offense. Jordan doesn't get tired, pretty much everyone knows that. Go back and watch how he played both ends like a complete mad man.

What lol? I know they have no chance of guarding Jordan. They can play a zone so that will help with Jordans attacking. Before you bring up hand checking, they also won't be able to clear out 1 side of the floor and let Jordan attack 1 on 1 every time.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 02:13 PM
Lobo owning this thread.

Where do you rank LeBron all time? If lower than 2nd is it because of the hate you've built from Kobe vs LeBron debates? This is not a jab, I'm just curious

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 02:15 PM
LeBron would absolutely dominate back in Jordans era too. It may have even been a better era for him to play in based on the style of play.

KnicksorBust
05-20-2017, 02:16 PM
Jordan was better on offense and better on defense. LeBron's versatility makes him special but it's not about who can check more boxes it is about who makes a bigger impact on the game. That's why someone like Harden is an MVP candidate. His impact on offense is significantly better than the combined contributions of someone else on offense and defense combined. At the end of the game I want Jordan. In the finals I want Jordan. LeBron passes to a teammate to make the right basketball play, Jordan passes to a teammate because the other team had to triple team him and the other team just offered a sharpshooter like Kerr a wide open jumpshot at the damn free throw line. That will always be the difference. If you don't throw the world at Jordan he will slice through the defense like swiss cheese and score. I'm very close to putting LeBron #2. And I do believe he still has the chance to pass Jordan but he's still not there yet for me.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 02:20 PM
What lol? I know they have no chance of guarding Jordan. They can play a zone so that will help with Jordans attacking. Before you bring up hand checking, they also won't be able to clear out 1 side of the floor and let Jordan attack 1 on 1 every time.

Jordan would have better shooters around him in this era. Good luck helping.

Speaking of hand checking since you brought it up. LeBron's number one method of scoring/assisting is putting his head down, blowing by his man, scoring or kicking it out. That's exactly what hand checking stops. LeBron benefited more than anyone from that, and I have to wonder what Jordan would have done.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 02:25 PM
Jordan was better on offense and better on defense. LeBron's versatility makes him special but it's not about who can check more boxes it is about who makes a bigger impact on the game. That's why someone like Harden is an MVP candidate. His impact on offense is significantly better than the combined contributions of someone else on offense and defense combined. At the end of the game I want Jordan. In the finals I want Jordan. LeBron passes to a teammate to make the right basketball play, Jordan passes to a teammate because the other team had to triple team him and the other team just offered a sharpshooter like Kerr a wide open jumpshot at the damn free throw line. That will always be the difference. If you don't throw the world at Jordan he will slice through the defense like swiss cheese and score. I'm very close to putting LeBron #2. And I do believe he still has the chance to pass Jordan but he's still not there yet for me.

How much better is he offensively though? He was a better scorer but LeBron was far and away the better passer. Had LeBron been a more selfish player he would probably be as good or better of a scorer. It's also easier to attack playing against no zone so they definitely faced different scenarios when being guarded.

Jordan is 6-0 in the finals, although I feel in some he faced worse team than LeBron but last year LeBron had a better Finals performance than Jordan ever had, against a better team than Jordan ever played.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 02:27 PM
Jordan would have better shooters around him in this era. Good luck helping.

Speaking of hand checking since you brought it up. LeBron's number one method of scoring/assisting is putting his head down, blowing by his man, scoring or kicking it out. That's exactly what hand checking stops. LeBron benefited more than anyone from that, and I have to wonder what Jordan would have done.

LeBron had hand checking his rookie year and still dominated at 18 though. I think he would've been just fine playing against that, especially if he could clear one side of the court out and take his man 1 on 1. No one would be able to stop him consistently in that scenario.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 02:28 PM
And to be clear, I haven't made a decision not this. I'm just throwing stuff your alls way to see yur side of the argument.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 02:30 PM
How much better is he offensively though? He was a better scorer but LeBron was far and away the better passer. Had LeBron been a more selfish player he would probably be as good or better of a scorer. It's also easier to attack playing against no zone so they definitely faced different scenarios when being guarded.

Jordan is 6-0 in the finals, although I feel in some he faced worse team than LeBron but last year LeBron had a better Finals performance than Jordan ever had, against a better team than Jordan ever played.

If LeBron played the way he played in game 5-6-7 in the first 4 games they'd of won easily. Curry was hurt or choking. There was that classic passive LeBron, lack of aggressiveness. So much so that Magic Johnson was calling him out for not scoring enough.

Needless to say Jordan would have played that way from the start and won. That Warriors team was damaged by the time they got to the finals.

krazylegz
05-20-2017, 02:31 PM
didnt vote because right now,its either a wash or jordan by a cu*t hair......in 3 years though...bron!

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 02:41 PM
If LeBron played the way he played in game 5-6-7 in the first 4 games they'd of won easily. Curry was hurt or choking. There was that classic passive LeBron, lack of aggressiveness. So much so that Magic Johnson was calling him out for not scoring enough.

Needless to say Jordan would have played that way from the start and won. That Warriors team was damaged by the time they got to the finals.

What do you mean by damaged?

LOb0
05-20-2017, 02:54 PM
What do you mean by damaged?

Fatigue 73 wins and OKC almost beating them, Curry's choking, Draymond's stupidity.

I'm not making excuses but that team wasn't at the top of the their game. That doesn't take away that LeBron went god mode and destroyed them. But I don't think that's anything Jordan couldn't have done.

I know for damn sure there wouldn't have been a 4 minute gap where no one scored at the end of game 7. Jordan would have closed that ***** so fast. They wouldn't have needed a Kyrie ISO 3 to save them.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:07 PM
Fatigue 73 wins and OKC almost beating them, Curry's choking, Draymond's stupidity.

I'm not making excuses but that team wasn't at the top of the their game. That doesn't take away that LeBron went god mode and destroyed them. But I don't think that's anything Jordan couldn't have done.

I know for damn sure there wouldn't have been a 4 minute gap where no one scored at the end of game 7. Jordan would have closed that ***** so fast. They wouldn't have needed a Kyrie ISO 3 to save them.

Every team is fatigued at that point though and everyone dealing with something. They were up 3-1, there's no excuse. You may be right about the last 4 minutes but there's no way to know, I don't think Jordan has ever put up those type of numbers in a finals though and I know he's never had a better performance than LeBron last year.

valade16
05-20-2017, 03:13 PM
Every team is fatigued at that point though and everyone dealing with something. They were up 3-1, there's no excuse. You may be right about the last 4 minutes but there's no way to know, I don't think Jordan has ever put up those type of numbers in a finals though and I know he's never had a better performance than LeBron last year.

LeBron had: 29.7 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 8.9 APG, 2.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG on 47% FG

MJ put up: 41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.7 BPG on 50.8% FG vs the Suns in the Finals.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 03:15 PM
Every team is fatigued at that point though and everyone dealing with something. They were up 3-1, there's no excuse. You may be right about the last 4 minutes but there's no way to know, I don't think Jordan has ever put up those type of numbers in a finals though and I know he's never had a better performance than LeBron last year.

LeBron was so bad the first 4 games that Magic was yelling on TV and LeBron's own friends were asking what was wrong with him.

He made up for it but, I'd take Jordan easily. Soon as Bron punched them in the mouth with scoring they crumbled. Jordan would have done the same. Likely earlier than Bron did.

Bron will end at number 2. Unless he just wins another few titles. More finals losses with his current choke jobs on his record will prevent him from achieving the number 1 spot. People are just caught up in the moment of Bron's greatness and forget just how great Jordan was. In terms of winning, I don't think there's anything Bron did that Jordan couldn't have done but better. 2011 Mavs, Jordan certainly would have closed that deal.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2017, 03:15 PM
LeBron had: 29.7 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 8.9 APG, 2.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG on 47% FG

MJ put up: 41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.7 BPG on 50.8% FG vs the Suns in the Finals.

not a against the same competition.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2017, 03:17 PM
LeBron was so bad the first 4 games that Magic was yelling on TV and LeBron's own friends were asking what was wrong with him.

He made up for it but, I'd take Jordan easily. Soon as Bron punched them in the mouth with scoring they crumbled. Jordan would have done the same. Likely earlier than Bron did.

Bron will end at number 2. Unless he just wins another few titles. More finals losses with his current choke jobs on his record will prevent him from achieving the number 1 spot. People are just caught up in the moment of Bron's greatness and forget just how great Jordan was. In terms of winning, I don't think there's anything Bron did that Jordan couldn't have done but better. 2011 Mavs, Jordan certainly would have closed that deal.

depends did he have pippen/rodman and the insane bulls team against those mavs teams? because he was **** without his superstar teams... lebron does much more in the playoffs with less. Jordan does the most with more help.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2017, 03:17 PM
its Jordan by a hair for now... i doubt the cavs can beat the warriors but if they do the debate now becomes insanely close... we will need a video of the haters jumping off bridges.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:18 PM
LeBron had: 29.7 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 8.9 APG, 2.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG on 47% FG

MJ put up: 41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.7 BPG on 50.8% FG vs the Suns in the Finals.

I stand corrected lol, I must've had LeBrons last 5 games of the finals confused with the whole series. Still don't think he has a better performance considering the situation and everything. Being down 3-1 to the team with the best record ever and coming back and winning which no team has ever done in the finals. It was just all around amazing.

valade16
05-20-2017, 03:20 PM
not a against the same competition.


I stand corrected lol, I must've had LeBrons last 5 games of the finals confused with the whole series. Still don't think he has a better performance considering the situation and everything. Being down 3-1 to the team with the best record ever and coming back and winning which no team has ever done in the finals. It was just all around amazing.

Oh that's why I Bolded only the part about numbers. Considering LeBron's opposition and being down 3-1, yeah I think it was the better performance.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:21 PM
LeBron was so bad the first 4 games that Magic was yelling on TV and LeBron's own friends were asking what was wrong with him.

He made up for it but, I'd take Jordan easily. Soon as Bron punched them in the mouth with scoring they crumbled. Jordan would have done the same. Likely earlier than Bron did.

Bron will end at number 2. Unless he just wins another few titles. More finals losses with his current choke jobs on his record will prevent him from achieving the number 1 spot. People are just caught up in the moment of Bron's greatness and forget just how great Jordan was. In terms of winning, I don't think there's anything Bron did that Jordan couldn't have done but better. 2011 Mavs, Jordan certainly would have closed that deal.

I can see your points. Pippen would have closed the deal next to Wade in the 2011 finals lol. Jordan wasn't necessary.

Btw, I posted some greatness in the Celtics Cavs thread inspired by your LeBron dragged Wade to 2 titles comment lol. Give it a look and try not to cry, I know I can't do it!

LOb0
05-20-2017, 03:23 PM
I can see your points. Pippen would have closed the deal next to Wade in the 2011 finals lol. Jordan wasn't necessary.

Btw, I posted some greatness in the Celtics Cavs thread inspired by your LeBron dragged Wade to 2 titles comment lol. Give it a look and try not to cry, I know I can't do it!

lol I love Wade, I'm just attacking the Celtic haters lol. Wade showed up for that finals for sure.

nastynice
05-20-2017, 03:27 PM
This is an interesting way of looking at it. I agree and for anyone else who does but would still answer Jordan I would have to ask how they justify it...

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Lebron can't beat Jordan, it's just what it is. What lebron is TRYING (and somewhat succeeding) to be to steph curry mentally is what Jordan would be to lebron. Diff people, diff eras, can't compare

lol, please
05-20-2017, 03:37 PM
I also meant to make the thread public, are mods able to change that? Let's hold each other accountable in arguably the greatest sports debate of all time!

Arguably? lol.

Way better sports arguments around than this, but I know you are bound to the agenda of pumping up Lebron because he played for the Heat for a while.

:rolleyes:

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:37 PM
Lebron can't beat Jordan, it's just what it is. What lebron is TRYING (and somewhat succeeding) to be to steph curry mentally is what Jordan would be to lebron. Diff people, diff eras, can't compare

It's different though because Curry isn't on either of their levels.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:40 PM
Arguably? lol.

Way better sports arguments around than this, but I know you are bound to the agenda of pumping up Lebron because he played for the Heat for a while.

:rolleyes:

Name the better debates?

I'm not bound to any agenda lol. I was pissed and hated LeBron when he left and hated him before he came. I'm just acknowledging his greatness. I realize you don't like him as he **** on your team last year and you all were only saved by injury in 2015 but give credit where it's due.

Give a legit argument or kick rocks and take your trolling with you.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:52 PM
For those picking Jordan, if LeBron were to win the finals this year against the most stacked team ever (due to KD being the biggest ***** in sports history) how much would it change your view?

LOb0
05-20-2017, 03:54 PM
For those picking Jordan, if LeBron were to win the finals this year against the most stacked team ever (due to KD being the biggest ***** in sports history) how much would it change your view?

I picked the Cavs to win last year. This year I think they're getting smashed.

If he wins this year. Now we have a debate.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:56 PM
I picked the Cavs to win last year. This year I think they're getting smashed.

If he wins this year. Now we have a debate.

I picked him too but then down 1-3 I thought it was over.

With me being on the fence about it, if he wins that might be the final straw for me to put him over Jordan.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 03:57 PM
We have some LeBron voters but none are sharing their opinion or reasoning. Get in on this, I would like to see both sides of the spectrum and hear your thought on why LeBron is better.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 04:01 PM
I picked him too but then down 1-3 I thought it was over.

With me being on the fence about it, if he wins that might be the final straw for me to put him over Jordan.

Same. This series is the kind of thing he'd need to surpass Jordan at this point. Even if he loses, as long as he plays well I don't think this series should really be held against him. Unless he plays poorly.

This Cavs has a lot of 2014 Heat vibe. They're still good enough to get to the finals but they're going to crash and burn once they get there with the poor defense and wear and tear from a 3rd finals appearance.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 04:10 PM
Same. This series is the kind of thing he'd need to surpass Jordan at this point. Even if he loses, as long as he plays well I don't think this series should really be held against him. Unless he plays poorly.

This Cavs has a lot of 2014 Heat vibe. They're still good enough to get to the finals but they're going to crash and burn once they get there with the poor defense and wear and tear from a 3rd finals appearance.

I didn't believe the whole defense switch when the Cavs would talk about it in the regular season but so far they're clearly right. They're just dominating teams.

I wouldn't compare them to the 2014 Heat as they're 2nd best player isn't playing on 1/2 a leg and I believe they're deeper and a better fit for LeBron.

I also don't think this should be held against him if he loses.

It's weird, this would boost LeBrons legacy if he wins and not hurt it if they lose and on the other end, it doesn't help any of the Warriors if they win and would destroy them if they lose.

valade16
05-20-2017, 04:15 PM
I didn't believe the whole defense switch when the Cavs would talk about it in the regular season but so far they're clearly right. They're just dominating teams.

I wouldn't compare them to the 2014 Heat as they're 2nd best player isn't playing on 1/2 a leg and I believe they're deeper and a better fit for LeBron.

I also don't think this should be held against him if he loses.

It's weird, this would boost LeBrons legacy if he wins and not hurt it if they lose and on the other end, it doesn't help any of the Warriors if they win and would destroy them if they lose.

This win by itself wouldn't help any Warrior much (though it would justify KD's decision to leave somewhat), but it would help them in totality when all is said and done and they are a 3x championship team, or a 4x or 5x team.

The best "dynasties" of all-time in no order are the Bulls (6), Celtics (11), Spurs (5), Lakers (5), Lakers (3) and Celtics (3).

So it seems they need a minimum of 3 to be talked about as one of the best dynasties ever and more likely they'd need 5 or more to claim the best.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 04:19 PM
I didn't believe the whole defense switch when the Cavs would talk about it in the regular season but so far they're clearly right. They're just dominating teams.

I wouldn't compare them to the 2014 Heat as they're 2nd best player isn't playing on 1/2 a leg and I believe they're deeper and a better fit for LeBron.

I also don't think this should be held against him if he loses.

It's weird, this would boost LeBrons legacy if he wins and not hurt it if they lose and on the other end, it doesn't help any of the Warriors if they win and would destroy them if they lose.

They're dominating East teams where the best star is a 5'9 PG with a broken jaw. Yes I'm aware Wade was hobbling at that point, but it just has that feeling of a team that's really flawed and fatigued and those flaws hit when you're up against a great team. Kinda 2003 Laker-ish.

I think that series is going 5 against GS, who is already bloodlusted I'm sure. Again similar to the 2014 Spurs.

You're right. All the pressure is really on GS. What a trainwreck if they lost. Durant would get destroyed.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 05:56 PM
862404404338544640

Is this guy right?

LOb0
05-20-2017, 06:02 PM
862404404338544640

Is this guy right?

Never choked like LeBron, did everything in less games than Bron, has better stats, never left to join a guy who won a ring already, far better clutch performer.

Pretty much every aspect actually. Bron was a better passer at least.

effen5
05-20-2017, 07:34 PM
Where do you rank LeBron then? The East was weak when Jordan was playing too and LeBron has arguably faced tougher competition in the finals. No team Jordan face was better than last years Warriors for sure.

Knicks heat magic pacers were all better than any trashy east team this year.

This season has been awful for competition.

effen5
05-20-2017, 07:36 PM
On a side note, I could see a team like the sonics give major fits to golden state.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2017, 07:57 PM
All things equal, I think Lebron could accomplish as much as Jordan could in the same circumstances while making generally the same contributions to their team. The gap between other players would be much closer as well for say PFs or PGs if they all had the same team/coaching/GM.

Jordan is obviously higher in the rankings because he played at an elite level while getting all the accolades. But I always found it extremely funny that people held it against Lebron for his lack of accomplishments pre-Heat and used that as justification for why he can't be better than Jordan. But at the same time disqualified his accomplishments when he went to Miami, when in reality, the overall talent, coaching and GM was still probably not equal to Jordan's GM/team/coaching.

Jordan usually gets put on a pedestal because of it because people want everyone should stay on the same team but need to accomplish the same as Jordan, even though the talent/coaching/management is nowhere near as good as what he had. Kinda like how CP3 is probably the 2nd best PG of all time talent wise and impact wise, but it forever torn apart for his lack of accomplishments against other PGs.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-20-2017, 08:06 PM
Name the better debates?

I'm not bound to any agenda lol. I was pissed and hated LeBron when he left and hated him before he came. I'm just acknowledging his greatness. I realize you don't like him as he **** on your team last year and you all were only saved by injury in 2015 but give credit where it's due.

Give a legit argument or kick rocks and take your trolling with you.

Zaza or KAJ.

WAAAAAR Zaza.

jason
05-20-2017, 08:07 PM
He may have won 6 times but he also had his fair share of failures. It's not like he won every year.

Was Jordan facing tougher competition? Was there more talent back then?
Jordan did win everytime he was supposed though right?

IKnowHoops
05-20-2017, 08:25 PM
Jordan did win everytime he was supposed though right?

Lebron won when he wasn't supposed to though. Never saw Jordan lead an entire finals in pts/reb/asst/stl/blk.

We can go back and forth forever bringing up what one guy did that the other didn't. ALL DAY!

Jamiecballer
05-20-2017, 08:56 PM
Lebron can't beat Jordan, it's just what it is. What lebron is TRYING (and somewhat succeeding) to be to steph curry mentally is what Jordan would be to lebron. Diff people, diff eras, can't compare
He doesn't have to beat Jordan unless the game has been changed into an individual sport ala tennis. He only has to be better at it.

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FOXHOUND
05-20-2017, 09:07 PM
Is this guy right?

The only thing I got out of that video was watching Cowherd shake his head and twitch throughout it. :laugh2:

Honestly, everything about Colin Cowherd's show and all these shows like First Take and Undisputed are about being controversial for ratings sake. Hot takes to push discussion, all that smart TV/radio stuff to get hits. Not to dismiss everything said on those shows, but they're not very transparent.

During the 2nd 3peat for Jordan, the NBA was pretty weak. There was still some really strong teams, but due to the growing expansion teams the overall talent was watered down. That's a fair point and it's part of the reason why you can legitimately argue that the Warriors regular season last year exceeds the 96 Bulls comfortably.

The problem is during the first 3peat, the era of which this guy is referring to when Jordan first retired, Jordan played at a level that crushes everyone. Yes, even Shaq's 3peat. Yes, even any of LeBron's championship seasons. The reason why Jordan never beat any teams like the 73-win Warriors is because Jordan was the 73-win Warriors. If you haven't watched every game of those three playoff runs, then you haven't seen Jordan at his full power and can't even begin to have this conversation.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 09:15 PM
Jordan's better because of accomplishments but it's reached a point where on a PURE basketball discussion, take out accomplishments and rings, LeBron is right up there with anyone - including Jordan. If you wanna talk rings, Jordan doesn't go 6-0 against the Warriors but I do think LeBron goes 6-0 against poor Barkley, watered down Lakers, a Clyde Drexler who wouldn't even be an All-Star in the WC today, choker Malone, and Kemp+GP.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 09:18 PM
The only thing I got out of that video was watching Cowherd shake his head and twitch throughout it. :laugh2:

Honestly, everything about Colin Cowherd's show and all these shows like First Take and Undisputed are about being controversial for ratings sake. Hot takes to push discussion, all that smart TV/radio stuff to get hits. Not to dismiss everything said on those shows, but they're not very transparent.

During the 2nd 3peat for Jordan, the NBA was pretty weak. There was still some really strong teams, but due to the growing expansion teams the overall talent was watered down. That's a fair point and it's part of the reason why you can legitimately argue that the Warriors regular season last year exceeds the 96 Bulls comfortably.

The problem is during the first 3peat, the era of which this guy is referring to when Jordan first retired, Jordan played at a level that crushes everyone. Yes, even Shaq's 3peat. Yes, even any of LeBron's championship seasons. The reason why Jordan never beat any teams like the 73-win Warriors is because Jordan was the 73-win Warriors. If you haven't watched every game of those three playoff runs, then you haven't seen Jordan at his full power and can't even begin to have this conversation.

But his last three weren't impressive at all. It was great, but it wasn't historically great. Tell me, what was so great about Jordan's last three rings?

FOXHOUND
05-20-2017, 09:34 PM
But his last three weren't impressive at all. It was great, but it wasn't historically great. Tell me, what was so great about Jordan's last three rings?

Michael Jordan beat the league MVP in two of his six championships (Barkley 93, Malone 97). He was league MVP for the other four.

Saying any of Jordan's championships weren't impressive at all is beyond biased. You can say LeBron's first wasn't impressive at all, when he arguably didn't even outplay Durant and the Heat won more due to Harden choking than anything. The Thunder were very young and their inexperience killed them with Harden and Ibaka having a very weak series. You can say the second championship isn't possible without a rare brain fart from Pop to take Duncan off to allow Bosh's offensive rebound and Allen's GT 3 in game 6. You can say that last year doesn't happen without Green being dumb and getting suspended.

There is no Finals that exists where you can say anything like that for Jordan.

FOXHOUND
05-20-2017, 09:39 PM
Jordan's better because of accomplishments but it's reached a point where on a PURE basketball discussion, take out accomplishments and rings, LeBron is right up there with anyone - including Jordan. If you wanna talk rings, Jordan doesn't go 6-0 against the Warriors but I do think LeBron goes 6-0 against poor Barkley, watered down Lakers, a Clyde Drexler who wouldn't even be an All-Star in the WC today, choker Malone, and Kemp+GP.

Poor Barkley? Clyde Drexler wouldn't even be an All-Star? Choker Malone? You couldn't be more biased man, come on lol.

WaDe03
05-20-2017, 09:45 PM
There they are! Flashbolt and IKnowHoops, I've been waiting for your LeBron knowledge!

L8kers4life
05-20-2017, 10:16 PM
This is an interesting way of looking at it. I agree and for anyone else who does but would still answer Jordan I would have to ask how they justify it...

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I would justify it a few ways for arguments sake.

1st if you have 5 Jordan's on the floor you would have 5 30 point career avg players who were at there peak in the playoffs. No one has ever locked down Jordan so 5 of him would not be any easier.
LeBron career avg 26. Jordan 30. Based on this stay alone Jordan would win.

LeBron score 104
Jordan Score 120

LeBron is much more passive and loves to pass, just because LeBron is bigger, there are more holes in his game Jordan could exploit. Lebrons post up game and jump shot are weak, Jordan as a defender is lock down. Its great that LeBron can guard 5 positions on the floor, but no one can lock down Jordan, moot point. Just because he has 2 inches on Jordan and has a more well rounded game than Jordan. As a pure clutch scorer, and 1 on 1 defender MJ is deadly especially in a playoff scenario.

Also assuming this is the finals, track record would say Jordan would win. He is 6-0 in the finals, adding 4 Jordan's to a Jordan led team would not make them worse, that would be insane.

Jordan's in 5...

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 10:38 PM
Poor Barkley? Clyde Drexler wouldn't even be an All-Star? Choker Malone? You couldn't be more biased man, come on lol.

1) Poor Barkley as in he was the only great player on his team. If Jordan is better than him by far, who accounts for Pippen? No one. For reference, Pippen averaged 21/9/8 in that Finals.
2) Clyde Drexler wouldn't be an All-Star in the West. Sorry, he wouldn't. The perimeter players today are ten times better. Name the five best perimeter players in Jordan's era. How many are better than PG, Kawhi, LeBron, Harden, Russ, KD? What if Jordan played against THOSE guys? For Christ's sake, the best perimeter defender was ON his team..
3) Choker Malone. Yup, because he choked TWICE in which Utah could have gone on to probably take those Finals to game 7's. First Finals, he misses two FT's in a row and they lose game 1. Second Finals, he turns the ball over in a pivotal moment. He wasn't great in those Finals at all.

effen5
05-20-2017, 10:45 PM
Jordan's better because of accomplishments but it's reached a point where on a PURE basketball discussion, take out accomplishments and rings, LeBron is right up there with anyone - including Jordan. If you wanna talk rings, Jordan doesn't go 6-0 against the Warriors but I do think LeBron goes 6-0 against poor Barkley, watered down Lakers, a Clyde Drexler who wouldn't even be an All-Star in the WC today, choker Malone, and Kemp+GP.

That Seattle team was filthy. I know lebron is athletic n all but kemp was a freak of nature

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 10:47 PM
Michael Jordan beat the league MVP in two of his six championships (Barkley 93, Malone 97). He was league MVP for the other four.

Saying any of Jordan's championships weren't impressive at all is beyond biased. You can say LeBron's first wasn't impressive at all, when he arguably didn't even outplay Durant and the Heat won more due to Harden choking than anything. The Thunder were very young and their inexperience killed them with Harden and Ibaka having a very weak series. You can say the second championship isn't possible without a rare brain fart from Pop to take Duncan off to allow Bosh's offensive rebound and Allen's GT 3 in game 6. You can say that last year doesn't happen without Green being dumb and getting suspended.

There is no Finals that exists where you can say anything like that for Jordan.

Lmao, you sound like you're making **** up.

1) Okay. LeBron beat the unanimous MVP and outplayed him TWICE. When did Barkley+Malone ever put up a better season than Curry did last season? I don't think so.
2) I said his final three. Why don't you disprove it instead of just saying it? Which of those three rings was more impressive than the three rings LeBron have? None. Zip. Because they weren't more impressive. For Jordan's standard, it wasn't impressive. He was a great player but the LeBron that won those three rings was better.
3) Lol. Durant didn't outplay LeBron. Go watch the series again instead of looking at BBallRef. LeBron made the plays when it mattered and in every series outside of game 1, KD had a negative +/-. KD made zero plays and just scored for himself. Sorry, that's not how you win games. He got outrebounded, outplayed, and outsmarted by LeBron.
4) Oh, so now LeBron can't have help but Jordan - who won nothing without Pippen, is somehow winning rings by himself? is that what you're suggesting? Fun Fact: In their six playoffs in which they had won the rings, Pippen had more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks than Jordan. Keep telling yourself Jordan didn't have huge help from the Pipster.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 10:48 PM
That Seattle team was filthy. I know lebron is athletic n all but kemp was a freak of nature

He was. Not denying that. By some standards, Kemp played better than Jordan. I always said that Seattle team was the best team Jordan faced in the Finals. But at the end of the day, Bulls were favorites by a wide margin.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 10:51 PM
1) Poor Barkley as in he was the only great player on his team. If Jordan is better than him by far, who accounts for Pippen? No one. For reference, Pippen averaged 21/9/8 in that Finals.
2) Clyde Drexler wouldn't be an All-Star in the West. Sorry, he wouldn't. The perimeter players today are ten times better. Name the five best perimeter players in Jordan's era. How many are better than PG, Kawhi, LeBron, Harden, Russ, KD? What if Jordan played against THOSE guys? For Christ's sake, the best perimeter defender was ON his team..
3) Choker Malone. Yup, because he choked TWICE in which Utah could have gone on to probably take those Finals to game 7's. First Finals, he misses two FT's in a row and they lose game 1. Second Finals, he turns the ball over in a pivotal moment. He wasn't great in those Finals at all.


This thread has comedown to minimizing both their achievements. We can make good arguments both ways. But bottom line is if Jordan was in LeBron's position they at least as well with a 2011 title added.

Another thing that bothers me is in the 2015 finals, game 1. Bron zero points in overtime. He couldn't buy a jump shot that entire series. I'm not going to hold that series against him due to being under maned but zero points in OT? Jordan's not having that.

I just feel like if you swapped Jordan for Bron they win more. And that will always be the thing that makes Jordan #1 and LeBron #2.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 10:55 PM
This thread has comedown to minimizing both their achievements. We can make good arguments both ways. But bottom line is if Jordan was in LeBron's position they at least as well with a 2011 title added.

Another thing that bothers me is in the 2015 finals, game 1. Bron zero points in overtime. He couldn't buy a jump shot that entire series. I'm not going to hold that series against him due to being under maned but zero points in OT? Jordan's not having that.

I just feel like if you swapped Jordan for Bron they win more. And that will always be the thing that makes Jordan #1 and LeBron #2.

The Mavs series was embarrassing. The 2015 Finals wasn't his fault. C'mon, the dude had 44 points and was flatout tired at that point. I just feel like Jordan beat the teams that LeBron would have beaten, too. So if you're saying Jordan would have won the Mavs series, sure. But I don't think he wins the one in 2015 nor 2016.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 10:59 PM
The Mavs series was embarrassing. The 2015 Finals wasn't his fault. C'mon, the dude had 44 points and was flatout tired at that point. I just feel like Jordan beat the teams that LeBron would have beaten, too. So if you're saying Jordan would have won the Mavs series, sure. But I don't think he wins the one in 2015 nor 2016.

2016 he absolutely would have won. Curry was hurt or choking, Bogut went out and Draymond is an idiot. LeBron played passive and frustratingly non aggressive the first 4 games. Soon as he started scoring the Warriors went down. Jordan would have been doing that from the start.

Not only that but, the last 4 minutes of game 7 no one could score, Jordan wouldn't have needed an ISO Kyrie 3 to save the day. He'd of finished that far earlier.

I do agree not even Jordan could have won in 2015 with that roster.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:02 PM
2016 he absolutely would have won. Curry was hurt or choking, Bogut went out and Draymond is an idiot. LeBron played passive and frustratingly non aggressive the first 4 games. Soon as he started scoring the Warriors went down. Jordan would have been doing that from the start.

Not only that but, the last 4 minutes of game 7 no one could score, Jordan wouldn't have needed an ISO Kyrie 3 to save the day. He'd of finished that far earlier.

I do agree not even Jordan could have won in 2015 with that roster.

Why do you say "not even Jordan could have won in 2015" as if Jordan even had a chance? Do some of you seriously not remember Jordan losing for like 6 seasons? I'm not sure why some people think Jordan won everything. 6-0 in the Finals means he only made it to the Finals 6x. Where was he in the other years? 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen but the narrative is he can win everything? How does that make sense. Explanation please?

FOXHOUND
05-20-2017, 11:05 PM
1) Poor Barkley as in he was the only great player on his team. If Jordan is better than him by far, who accounts for Pippen? No one. For reference, Pippen averaged 21/9/8 in that Finals.
2) Clyde Drexler wouldn't be an All-Star in the West. Sorry, he wouldn't. The perimeter players today are ten times better. Name the five best perimeter players in Jordan's era. How many are better than PG, Kawhi, LeBron, Harden, Russ, KD? What if Jordan played against THOSE guys? For Christ's sake, the best perimeter defender was ON his team..
3) Choker Malone. Yup, because he choked TWICE in which Utah could have gone on to probably take those Finals to game 7's. First Finals, he misses two FT's in a row and they lose game 1. Second Finals, he turns the ball over in a pivotal moment. He wasn't great in those Finals at all.

1) Ah, I see what you meant by that. The Suns were a very good team but yeah, he certainly was shorthanded compared to Jordan. Still, it was Jordan averaging 41, 8.5, 6.3, 1.7, 0.7 on .508/.400/.698 that series that led to their demise.

2) Drexler would 100% make the All-Star team over Hayward, Thompson and Green, for starters. In 1991-92, Drexler was 1st Team All-NBA, led his team to 57-wins, averaged 25, 6.6, 6.7, 1.8, 0.9 on .470/.337/.794 and finished 2nd in MVP voting to Jordan. If you glanced at his numbers in the Finals, maybe that's why you thought he wasn't that good still. But, you know, he was 29 and in his prime. He was just playing Michael Jordan.

He actually guarded Drexler a lot in that series, because he was mad that anyone was comparing them and saying that maybe they were close. He also shot from 3 more in that series, including his infamous 35 point first half with 6 3PT's made in game 1, because some reporter asked him why he couldn't shoot 3's like Drexler. Jordan averaged 36, 5, 6.5, 1.7 and shot .526/.429/.891 to make sure any nonsense of that talk was put to rest. That's Michael Jordan.

And you said what if Jordan played those guys? No, what if those guys played Michael Jordan?

3) He didn't just turn it over, Michael Jordan came and stole it from him. ;)

Karl Malone was better in both of those Finals than 36-year old Duncan in 2013, who LeBron beat. And talk about a choking moment, in game 7 Duncan missed a 2 foot shot over Battier and an offensive put back with under a minute left that would have tied it. :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3NvhxKicJY

LOb0
05-20-2017, 11:05 PM
Why do you say "not even Jordan could have won in 2015" as if Jordan even had a chance? Do some of you seriously not remember Jordan losing for like 6 seasons? I'm not sure why some people think Jordan won everything. 6-0 in the Finals means he only made it to the Finals 6x. Where was he in the other years? 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen but the narrative is he can win everything? How does that make sense. Explanation please?

I said he'd of lost too. I don't think he's scoring zero in overtime however, and if you check his laughable outside the paint numbers in that series, Jordan wouldn't have been so easy to stop with Iggy playing a few feet off him daring him to shoot. Not to mention Curry and Klay weren't playing exactly lights out in that finals.

Needless to say, I think that series would have been closer with Jordan than Lebron with his at the time, completely broken jump shot, that handed Iggy a free finals MVP.

Also respond to my Jordan winning in 2016 argument. I think its pretty clear cut he'd of won that series.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:14 PM
1) Ah, I see what you meant by that. The Suns were a very good team but yeah, he certainly was shorthanded compared to Jordan. Still, it was Jordan averaging 41, 8.5, 6.3, 1.7, 0.7 on .508/.400/.698 that series that led to their demise.

2) Drexler would 100% make the All-Star team over Hayward, Thompson and Green, for starters. In 1991-92, Drexler was 1st Team All-NBA, led his team to 57-wins, averaged 25, 6.6, 6.7, 1.8, 0.9 on .470/.337/.794 and finished 2nd in MVP voting to Jordan. If you glanced at his numbers in the Finals, maybe that's why you thought he wasn't that good still. But, you know, he was 29 and in his prime. He was just playing Michael Jordan.

He actually guarded Drexler a lot in that series, because he was mad that anyone was comparing them and saying that maybe they were close. He also shot from 3 more in that series, including his infamous 35 point first half with 6 3PT's made in game 1, because some reporter asked him why he couldn't shoot 3's like Drexler. Jordan averaged 36, 5, 6.5, 1.7 and shot .526/.429/.891 to make sure any nonsense of that talk was put to rest. That's Michael Jordan.

3) He didn't just turn it over, Michael Jordan came and stole it from him. ;)

Karl Malone was better in both of those Finals than 36-year old Duncan in 2013, who LeBron beat. And talk about a choking moment, in game 7 Duncan missed a 2 foot shot over Battier and an offensive put back with under a minute left that would have tied it. :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3NvhxKicJY

2) Like I said, the perimeter players in that era was weak. Much weaker. The perimeter players today are much better. Do you think Clyde sniffs the all-nba 1st team in this era? LMAO, no way. He would be a total after thought. He would probably barely make it in the all-nba 3rd team. I mean, D. Lillard and Chris Paul didn't even make it. Drexler was good but think about it, the guy was probably Jordan's TOUGHEST rival at that position.. who else? Wilkins? I'd take Melo over Wilkins any day. Who else? Please, give me names!!!!! When GP had the chance, he put the clamps on Jordan. Jordan shot like 42% in the field in that series. What if it was Jordan vs Kawhi, Jordan vs KD, Jordan vs Melo, Jordan vs Wade, Jordan vs prime Kobe, Jordan vs Harden, Jordan vs Westy. I mean, where are these guys during Jordan's time?

3) Ask anyone: Duncan's presence in the Spurs that time wasn't offensively - which you seem to be focusing on. Like I said, BBallref can only help so much. Duncan was ON that team specifically to DEFEND. He was still probably the best rim protector and a top 5 defensive player. So that wasn't even a peak Duncan. Spurs were more than just Duncan. Much more.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:21 PM
I said he'd of lost too. I don't think he's scoring zero in overtime however, and if you check his laughable outside the paint numbers in that series, Jordan wouldn't have been so easy to stop with Iggy playing a few feet off him daring him to shoot. Not to mention Curry and Klay weren't playing exactly lights out in that finals.

Needless to say, I think that series would have been closer with Jordan than Lebron with his at the time, completely broken jump shot, that handed Iggy a free finals MVP.

Also respond to my Jordan winning in 2016 argument. I think its pretty clear cut he'd of won that series.

Dude, did you watch that series? No one blames LeBron for missing his jump shots because he had to do every little thing. Does Jordan lead his team in rebounding, assists, blocks, steals and points? You tell me. He didn't even lead Pippen in it and Pippen was on his team.

I'm not responding to the 2016. You nor I have evidence he would have won or lost that. From what I saw, again, LeBron led the series in rebounding, blocks, assists, steals, and points. He put up a better Finals performance than Jordan ever did when you take into account the team he played against. You say it's pretty clear cut because you think Jordan wins everything. Too bad facts show he doesn't and didn't.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-20-2017, 11:23 PM
Why do you say "not even Jordan could have won in 2015" as if Jordan even had a chance? Do some of you seriously not remember Jordan losing for like 6 seasons? I'm not sure why some people think Jordan won everything. 6-0 in the Finals means he only made it to the Finals 6x. Where was he in the other years? 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen but the narrative is he can win everything? How does that make sense. Explanation please?

Why don't you lookup who the Bulls faced in the 1st Rd of the 86 and 87 playoffs. I'm just going to disregard his rookie season at the age of 22 like it should be held against him. Tell me about the dynasty teams LBJ had to beat to get to the finals all these years. Go ahead and look at his numbers too that he put up against the celtics, and name 1 other teammate of his not named Oakley (who was also age 22-23 during those seasons). His teams were a joke and facing juggernauts in the 1st round.

We should discuss all the HOF ridden teams LBJ was beating his 1st few years in the league.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:24 PM
btw, I'm not saying LeBron is better than Jordan. I think it's a toss-up if we're talking about pure basketball. idc about the rings. do you go to the park and ask everyone how many rings they have? Let's be honest. The great players are easily identifiable. And LeBron+Jordan are two of the GOAT's ever. To say Jordan was so much better because he didn't lose to the Mavs or that he was 6-0 in the Finals is ********. You either can play basketball or not. And both players clearly did at the highest level we've seen.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-20-2017, 11:28 PM
btw, I'm not saying LeBron is better than Jordan. I think it's a toss-up if we're talking about pure basketball. idc about the rings. do you go to the park and ask everyone how many rings they have? Let's be honest. The great players are easily identifiable. And LeBron+Jordan are two of the GOAT's ever. To say Jordan was so much better because he didn't lose to the Mavs or that he was 6-0 in the Finals is ********. You either can play basketball or not. And both players clearly did at the highest level we've seen.

You don't need rings to know who is better. I'd be willing to bet 95% of people around to view both careers would share the same answer just by watching their careers unfold. And by no means am I trying to knock James. He's the clear cut #2 in my eyes.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 11:28 PM
Dude, did you watch that series? No one blames LeBron for missing his jump shots because he had to do every little thing. Does Jordan lead his team in rebounding, assists, blocks, steals and points? You tell me. He didn't even lead Pippen in it and Pippen was on his team.

I'm not responding to the 2016. You nor I have evidence he would have won or lost that. From what I saw, again, LeBron led the series in rebounding, blocks, assists, steals, and points. He put up a better Finals performance than Jordan ever did when you take into account the team he played against. You say it's pretty clear cut because you think Jordan wins everything. Too bad facts show he doesn't and didn't.


lol wow you sound like an angry LeBron defender. You're simply giving LeBron an excuse for missing jump shots.

Lebron was one of the worst outside the paint shooters in the entire NBA that year. It cameback and bit him in the NBA finals. Just because he was "Doing other things" doesn't excuse that.

You don't have evidence to disprove me in 2016 either. Fact is LeBron was getting crushed by Magic Johnson, the media, and even LeBron's own friends for not scoring enough and being passive in the first 4 games of that finals. He turned it around in game 5-6-7 and started scoring. There's no reason to believe Jordan wouldn't have been doing that from game 1. And he wouldn't of needed a Kyrie 3 pointer in 4 scoreless minutes to save him.

Honestly you come off as an irrational LeBron fan that refuses acknowledge anything negative about him. If you want to keep being viewed that way be my guest. But you're not having a debate. You're just being ignorant.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:29 PM
Why don't you lookup who the Bulls faced in the 1st Rd of the 86 and 87 playoffs. I'm just going to disregard his rookie season at the age of 22 like it should be held against him. Tell me about the dynasty teams LBJ had treat to get to the finals all these years. Go ahead and look at his numbers too that he put up against the celtics, and name 1 other teammate of his not named Oakley (who was also age 22-23 during those seasons). His teams were a joke and facing juggernauts in the 1st round.

We should discuss all the HOF ridden teams LBJ was beating his 1st few years in the league.

1) All the HOF players Jordan beat? Yeah, that's because all the HOF's James will beat right now are still playing.. dummy... And some of the HOF players Jordan played against are only there because they needed to fill the names up. Just like the top 50 players. You really think that list is a concrete? How many of these HOF players did Jordan beat when they were at their prime and actually had a team, though?

2) I say he was 1-10 because if you're saying he was 6-0, that means you give him credit for winning. So how come I can't knock him for losing? Just like he's 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen, he was 6-0 WITH Pippen. So what does that tell you? His team got better and the league got weaker. How many rings does Jordan have if Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers were healthy...? I'll wait.. Anyone here willing to tell me if any of the Jordan's six titles were against a team close to that caliber? Waiting... Name one teammate LeBron played with in 2009.. Mo Williams? In 2007, Wally Scherbiak? Drew Gooden? If it seems like I'm making these names up, I'm not. Just like LeBron lost because his team wasn't better, Jordan lost because his team wasn't better. AKA, teams win championships. AKA, both are great players who lost.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:34 PM
lol wow you sound like an angry LeBron defender. You're simply giving LeBron an excuse for missing jump shots.

Lebron was one of the worst outside the paint shooters in the entire NBA that year. It cameback and bit him in the NBA finals. Just because he was "Doing other things" doesn't excuse that.

You don't have evidence to disprove me in 2016 either. Fact is LeBron was getting crushed by Magic Johnson, the media, and even LeBron's own friends for not scoring enough and being passive in the first 4 games of that finals. He turned it around in game 5-6-7 and started scoring. There's no reason to believe Jordan wouldn't have been doing that from game 1.

Honestly you come off as an irrational LeBron fan that refuses acknowledge anything negative about him. If you want to keep being viewed that way be my guest. But you're not having a debate. You're just being ignorant.

What gave you the impression that I was angry? Because I said dude? Okay, I'll call you friend.

Friend, LeBron missed jump shots. Okay, and Shaq missed FT's and never hit a three pointer in his life. What does that prove? You don't have to hit jump shots to win. It helps but LeBron had other ways to score and his game was ALWAYS predicated on attacking the paint. I don't need to defend it because it doesn't have to be defended. His strong suit was never to shoot the ball but he was much better than Jordan at attacking the paint. But why do you ignore the other things LeBron do? Does all of that go away because he doesn't hit jump shots?

And I never disproved it because I already told you, it can't be proven. I can't disprove what can't be proven factually. So do you have evidence he would have won in 2016? Fact is, Lebron had historically great games in 5-7 and led the series in rebounds, steals, blocks, assists, points. Name me one time in which Jordan even led in three categories in ANY series. Again, all you're fixated on is what you want to see. You're not looking at the other parts of the game that Jordan was never better than LeBron at. Things that, you know, matter? Thanks, "friend." That was a 73-9 team that ranked #1 in defense and that most people had sweeping the Cavs after game 2. Cavs win coming back from 3-1. I can't prove Jordan would have lost but you can't prove he could have won. He lost to much less before, you know?

nastynice
05-20-2017, 11:37 PM
He doesn't have to beat Jordan unless the game has been changed into an individual sport ala tennis. He only has to be better at it.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

I was mentioning from the 5 Jordan's vs 5 Lebron's. I do think there's a mental facet to the game, the gap between the two is too far.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:40 PM
lol wow you sound like an angry LeBron defender. You're simply giving LeBron an excuse for missing jump shots.

Lebron was one of the worst outside the paint shooters in the entire NBA that year. It cameback and bit him in the NBA finals. Just because he was "Doing other things" doesn't excuse that.

You don't have evidence to disprove me in 2016 either. Fact is LeBron was getting crushed by Magic Johnson, the media, and even LeBron's own friends for not scoring enough and being passive in the first 4 games of that finals. He turned it around in game 5-6-7 and started scoring. There's no reason to believe Jordan wouldn't have been doing that from game 1. And he wouldn't of needed a Kyrie 3 pointer in 4 scoreless minutes to save him.

Honestly you come off as an irrational LeBron fan that refuses acknowledge anything negative about him. If you want to keep being viewed that way be my guest. But you're not having a debate. You're just being ignorant.

1) I said LeBron against Mavs was terrible.
2) I said shooting isn't his strong suit and has never been.
3) I said he needs to do more to surpass Jordan for his career.

What do you want me to say? The guy has been great. There's not much to criticize him for. I can go on and on about Al Horford and IT, though. Want me to?

LOb0
05-20-2017, 11:40 PM
What gave you the impression that I was angry? Because I said dude? Okay, I'll call you friend.

Friend, LeBron missed jump shots. Okay, and Shaq missed FT's and never hit a three pointer in his life. What does that prove? You don't have to hit jump shots to win. It helps but LeBron had other ways to score and his game was ALWAYS predicated on attacking the paint. I don't need to defend it because it doesn't have to be defended. His strong suit was never to shoot the ball but he was much better than Jordan at attacking the paint. But why do you ignore the other things LeBron do? Does all of that go away because he doesn't hit jump shots?

And I never disproved it because I already told you, it can't be proven. I can't disprove what can't be proven factually. So do you have evidence he would have won in 2016? Fact is, Lebron had historically great games in 5-7 and led the series in rebounds, steals, blocks, assists, points. Name me one time in which Jordan even led in three categories in ANY series. Again, all you're fixated on is what you want to see. You're not looking at the other parts of the game that Jordan was never better than LeBron at. Things that, you know, matter? Thanks, "friend."


I'm not but they needed offense. and With Iggy playing feet off of him daring him to shoot and seeing brick after brick. He needs to take blame.

Bottom line is when LeBron started putting the ball in the basket is when the Warriors crumbled. When he wasn't doing the earlier games the Warriors were winning. Jordan would have been scoring in game 1. There's zero reason to believe that if Jordan was in that spot they wouldn't have won. Especially with Curry's struggles. Draymond being and idiot and Bogut going down.

I'm not taking away anything for LeBron it was all time greatness, but Jordan could have accomplished that as well. And if Bron had been more aggressive starting in game 1, he might have ended it sooner.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-20-2017, 11:42 PM
1) All the HOF players Jordan beat? Yeah, that's because all the HOF's James will beat right now are still playing.. dummy... And some of the HOF players Jordan played against are only there because they needed to fill the names up. Just like the top 50 players. You really think that list is a concrete? How many of these HOF players did Jordan beat when they were at their prime and actually had a team, though?

2) I say he was 1-10 because if you're saying he was 6-0, that means you give him credit for winning. So how come I can't knock him for losing? Just like he's 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen, he was 6-0 WITH Pippen. So what does that tell you? His team got better and the league got weaker. How many rings does Jordan have if Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers were healthy...? I'll wait.. Anyone here willing to tell me if any of the Jordan's six titles were against a team close to that caliber? Waiting... Name one teammate LeBron played with in 2009.. Mo Williams? In 2007, Wally Scherbiak? Drew Gooden? If it seems like I'm making these names up, I'm not. Just like LeBron lost because his team wasn't better, Jordan lost because his team wasn't better. AKA, teams win championships. AKA, both are great players who lost.

Ahhh, so we get to throwing insults out when we have to reach to the farthest depths to prove a worthless point.

I said LBJ's 1st few years....you know as in 10-14 years ago...dummy. By his 3rd season (when LBJ actually finally made the playoffs) he was still facing off against the likes of Gilbert Arenas, Antawn Jamison, Caron Butler, Antonio Daniels, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, etc. I wasn't aware most of these guys were still around.

Did I say 6-0 trumps all? Stop acting like every single person is here saying that (I can't even really find anyone saying that).

LOb0
05-20-2017, 11:43 PM
1.
1) I said LeBron against Mavs was terrible.
2) I said shooting isn't his strong suit and has never been.
3) I said he needs to do more to surpass Jordan for his career.

What do you want me to say? The guy has been great. There's not much to criticize him for. I can go on and on about Al Horford and IT, though. Want me to?


1. You have no choice
2. You still made an excuse for it
3. Great.

Horford's been playing great for the record. And IT had a great season. We're losing to the second greatest ever with a placeholder team. Come at me in 2 years when we're dominating.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-20-2017, 11:44 PM
1) I said LeBron against Mavs was terrible.
2) I said shooting isn't his strong suit and has never been.
3) I said he needs to do more to surpass Jordan for his career.

What do you want me to say? The guy has been great. There's not much to criticize him for. I can go on and on about Al Horford and IT, though. Want me to?

1) Name a playoff series where MJ was terrible.
2) Shootings a pretty big part of basketball, is it not?
3) Then WTF are you arguing people about here? Why are you attempting to persuade others of something you don't even believe yourself.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:45 PM
I'm not but they needed offense. and With Iggy playing feet off of him daring him to shoot and seeing brick after brick. He needs to take blame.

Bottom line is when LeBron started putting the ball in the basket is when the Warriors crumbled. When he wasn't doing the earlier games the Warriors were winning. Jordan would have been scoring in game 1. There's zero reason to believe that if Jordan was in that spot they wouldn't have won. Especially with Curry's struggles. Draymond being and idiot and Bogut going down.

I'm not taking away anything for LeBron it was all time greatness, but Jordan could have accomplished that as well. And if Bron had started being more aggressive starting in game 1, he might have ended it sooner.

1) Did Jordan shoot well against the Sonics in 96? Pull up the numbers. Find me his FG% in jumpshots. Hint: It wasn't good. Stop acting like Jordan was a great shooter. Kobe was better than him. Jordan, for much of his career, was attacking the paint.

2) So I guess you don't want to talk about LeBron averaging 11 rebounds, 9 assists, 2.6 steals, and 2.3 blocks... okay, that doesn't mean anything because Jordan can score over Iggy...

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:51 PM
1.


1. You have no choice
2. You still made an excuse for it
3. Great.

Horford's been playing great for the record. And IT had a great season. We're losing to the second greatest ever with a placeholder team. Come at me in 2 years when we're dominating.


1) Yes, I have no choice. Nor did I never not say it.
2) No, I didn't. I simply said he was tired when you said he didn't score in the OT. Then you said he can't shoot. Well, he never was able to do it consistently. He didn't in the Spurs series the first year they beat him.

I don't see how I'm being ignorant. What else do you want me to say? Can you name, outside of the three bulletpoints, what else wasn't established?


1) Name a playoff series where MJ was terrible.
2) Shootings a pretty big part of basketball, is it not?
3) Then WTF are you arguing people about here? Why are you attempting to persuade others of something you don't even believe yourself.

1) He's great. What do you want me to say? One NBA series determines how great an NBA player truly is? "Jordan is better than LeBron because LeBron choked against the Mavs." How does this even prove who's better? It's a short sample size of four games. On LeBron's part, it was embarrassing. But he's a much better player than that and he's shown it.
2) Didn't Shaq destroy without it? I mean, LeBron is fifth in PPG scoring in NBA history. Pretty good for someone who can't shoot, right?
3) I said Jordan was the best because of his accomplishments but that they're both equally as good. Sorry if that's arguing to you.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:54 PM
1.


1. You have no choice
2. You still made an excuse for it
3. Great.

Horford's been playing great for the record. And IT had a great season. We're losing to the second greatest ever with a placeholder team. Come at me in 2 years when we're dominating.

You guys aren't dominating in 2 years. You're probably resigning IT and Bradley's contract is up soon. Where does this money come from? You get Fultz. Okay, Bradley > Fultz for at least two more seasons. And Fultz might not even be as good as you think he is. Dude wasn't winning games in college. So you guys are overpaying for Horford and possibly IT. Lakers have a better future, tbh. Not trying to burst your bubble but you guys resigning IT will be the worst move you'll make. He's not THAT good and he's your first option. You guys almost lost to the Bulls, Wizards, and that game 2 last night was a total quit show.

LOb0
05-20-2017, 11:55 PM
1) Did Jordan shoot well against the Sonics in 96? Pull up the numbers. Find me his FG% in jumpshots. Hint: It wasn't good. Stop acting like Jordan was a great shooter. Kobe was better than him. Jordan, for much of his career, was attacking the paint.

2) So I guess you don't want to talk about LeBron averaging 11 rebounds, 9 assists, 2.6 steals, and 2.3 blocks... okay, that doesn't mean anything because Jordan can score over Iggy...

1. Kobe was not a better mid range shooter than Jordan. Which is what I'm talking about. If LeBron could have made those wide open mid range shots in the 2015 finals that series would have been a lot closer.

2. Yeah, when you need the most important thing in basketball, which is individual scoring when your two other scorers are out, yeah it matters. Sorry to break that news to you.

If your best diss to Jordan is he shot 42% in the NBA finals in the mid 90s as individual defense was at its peak with hand checking, with an all time great defensive player as guarding him. Then you're welcome to that.

LeBron able to blow by guys at will without being touched, put up a 38% performance in the 2015 NBA finals. With open jump shots being handed to him by Iggy.

europagnpilgrim
05-20-2017, 11:57 PM
Q: Best Center Russell or Chamberlain
A: Chamberlain

Q: Best player ever Michael Jordan or Lebron James or someone else
A: Wilt Chamberlain

A = The Pearl Monroe interview

LOb0
05-20-2017, 11:59 PM
You guys aren't dominating in 2 years. You're probably resigning IT and Bradley's contract is up soon. Where does this money come from? You get Fultz. Okay, Bradley > Fultz for at least two more seasons. And Fultz might not even be as good as you think he is. Dude wasn't winning games in college. So you guys are overpaying for Horford and possibly IT. Lakers have a better future, tbh. Not trying to burst your bubble but you guys resigning IT will be the worst move you'll make. He's not THAT good and he's your first option. You guys almost lost to the Bulls, Wizards, and that game 2 last night was a total quit show.

This makes me question even speaking with you if you think that. We just got to the east finals. We have the first pick in the draft. Another top pick next year which is trade bait, Jaylen looks good and Bron is getting old. And we have max money this summer.

That compares to the Lakers and Lonzo Ball? I've seen stupid people were but you're an all time delusional goof.

FlashBolt
05-20-2017, 11:59 PM
1. Kobe was not a better mid range shooter than Jordan. Which is what I'm talking about. If LeBron could have made those wide open mid range shots in the 2015 finals that series would have been a lot closer.

2. Yeah, when you need the most important thing in basketball, which is individual scoring when your two other scorers are out, yeah it matters. Sorry to break that news to you.

If your best diss to Jordan is he shot 42% in the NBA finals in the mid 90s as individual defense was at its peak with hand checking, with an all time great defensive player as guarding him. Then you're welcome to that.

LeBron able to blow by guys at will without being touched, put up a 38% performance in the 2015 NBA finals. With open jump shots being handed to him by Iggy.

1) uhhh, yes he was. And he was also better at footwork. But it's pretty much established that Kobe was a better shooter and Jordan better at attacking the paint because of his big hands.

2) he shot 42% - which means he had a bad time shooting? And those were his PAINT SHOTS included. Go watch the replay. Jordan rarely hit any jump shots.. which you're saying 100% he would have done vs the best defense in the NBA that season, the Warriors.

And maybe you didn't know but Jordan didn't play against zone defense... which made it easier for Jordan to attack the paint... which is what allowed Jordan to score most of his points. so rules are rules but let's stop acting like Jordan went through WWII. More fouls and FT's called back at his time than present era of basketball. go check it.

mngopher35
05-21-2017, 12:03 AM
It's Jordan but it does seem like a lot of people have said he can get into the conversation by beating this Warriors squad. I am not sure what it would take to me tbh but if he plays like the last couple finals and/or better while beating these guys it definitely helps.

I am surprised it is even somewhat close voting wise, shoulda had it public.

LOb0
05-21-2017, 12:06 AM
1) uhhh, yes he was. And he was also better at footwork. But it's pretty much established that Kobe was a better shooter and Jordan better at attacking the paint because of his big hands.

2) he shot 42% - which means he had a bad time shooting? And those were his PAINT SHOTS included. Go watch the replay. Jordan rarely hit any jump shots.. which you're saying 100% he would have done vs the best defense in the NBA that season, the Warriors.

And maybe you didn't know but Jordan didn't play against zone defense... which made it easier for Jordan to attack the paint... which is what allowed Jordan to score most of his points. so rules are rules but let's stop acting like Jordan went through WWII. More fouls and FT's called back at his time than present era of basketball. go check it.

Jordan was a better mid range shooter than Kobe, this isn't a debate.


Lol and Lebron scores most of his points and gets most of his assists blowing by his man that can't touch him. No one in NBA history and benefited more from that.

FlashBolt
05-21-2017, 12:06 AM
This makes me question even speaking with you if you think that. We just got to the east finals. We have the first pick in the draft. Another top pick next year which is trade bait, Jaylen looks good and Bron is getting old. And we have max money this summer.

That compares to the Lakers and Lonzo Ball? I've seen stupid people were but you're an all time delusional goof.

1) We're talking about the future. Not the present. Lakers have a solid cast and PG might be coming along with Magic Johnson being the president, he can attract players. Lakers have a damn solid future with Lonzo, Ingram, Randle, and some decent trade pieces along with attraction to big free agents.

2) Oh, you made the East Finals? Good for you. Barely beat the Wizards... Rondo got injured when they were up 2-0... Consensus weakest #1 seed in any conference in NBA history.. Only reason you got #1 seed was because Cleveland didn't even care..
3) First pick in the draft but most say Lonzo is best if you want to make teammates better. Draft Fultz, hurts IT's scoring. total waste of talent.
4) Bradley/Smart/Brown's contract are all up soon. You probably won't have enough money to sign all of them while having three max contracts in IT/Horford/another max.
5) market attraction for lakers is 1000x better than Celtics. when was the last time Celtics got a great free agent? I'll wait.
6) Jaylen looks good. LMFAO. Yeah, he looks good.. last night, garbage time against RJ. He looked amazing.
7) LeBron is getting old. Really? I heard that four years ago.

I never said Lakers are better now. I said Lakers have a better future because they have a better cast of young players while having the attraction of the free agency. All you're gambling on is Fultz. Who are you attracting in the free agency? Stupid post? Okay, what's stupid about Ingram+Lonzo+Cousins+PG+Randle? That's stupid?

FlashBolt
05-21-2017, 12:08 AM
Jordan was a better mid range shooter than Kobe, this isn't a debate.


Lol and Lebron scores most of his points and gets most of his assists blowing by his man that can't touch him. No one in NBA history and benefited more from that.

You mean because he's 6'8 260 and runs like a bull? Maybe you forgot but the NBA was literally sucking Jordan dry in his heyday. Reggie gets punched by Jordan, Reggie gets ejected. They treated Jordan better than any athlete.

FlashBolt
05-21-2017, 12:12 AM
hey Lobo:

https://i.gyazo.com/b4ba3dac7de1f7a6a64bd7d1e3886ea5.png

Room to sign 2 max players along with Lonzo+Randle+DLO+Ingram. I guess I'm the troll or maybe you're not paying attention?

LOb0
05-21-2017, 12:13 AM
1) We're talking about the future. Not the present. Lakers have a solid cast and PG might be coming along with Magic Johnson being the president, he can attract players. Lakers have a damn solid future with Lonzo, Ingram, Randle, and some decent trade pieces along with attraction to big free agents.

2) Oh, you made the East Finals? Good for you. Barely beat the Wizards... Rondo got injured when they were up 2-0... Consensus weakest #1 seed in any conference in NBA history.. Only reason you got #1 seed was because Cleveland didn't even care..
3) First pick in the draft.
4) Bradley/Smart/Brown's contract are all up soon. You probably won't have enough money to sign all of them while having three max contracts in IT/Horford/another max.
5) market attraction for lakers is 1000x better than Celtics. when was the last time Celtics got a great free agent? I'll wait.
6) Jaylen looks good. LMFAO. Yeah, he looks good.. last night, garbage time against RJ. He looked amazing.
7) LeBron is getting old. Really? I heard that four years ago.

I never said Lakers are better now. I said Lakers have a better future because they have a better cast of young players while having the attraction of the free agency. All you're gambling on is Fultz. Who are you attracting in the free agency? Stupid post? Okay, what's stupid about Ingram+Lonzo+Cousins+PG+Randle? That's stupid?

Yeah like Deng and Mozgov. They couldn't even keep Dwight anymore.

Jaylen Brown, a rookie had a bad game? Yeah he's done.

Who said we're signing everyone?

Bron is 32, that's young? He's gonna hit that wall at some point.

Yes making the East finals with a number 1 draft pick is a bad thing.

Do you ever notice how dumb your posts are or are you completely oblivious?

Lakers don't even have one proven guy yet. Can we talk when they do?

I could just go full moron like you and talk about how Bron is about to get smashed in this finals and how ignorant people like yourself who are not Bron fans are going to point out his finals record time and time again.

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2017, 12:18 AM
Q: Best Center Russell or Chamberlain
A: Chamberlain

Q: Best player ever, Michael Jordan or Lebron James or someone else
A: Wilt Chamberlain

Earl The Pearl Monroe interview

Jordan/Lebron are battling for 2nd and 3rd respectively or possibly lower depending on who you ask

if I had to draft a player out of those two to start my franchise I am going with the UNC player of the year over the HS phenom, Jordan was a little bit more ready and had way better coaching leading up to coming into the nba to prepare him

on a side note if Len Bias had not passed away he possibly would have been looked upon better than both since he was basically Lebron(frame wise/athlete) with a jumpshot+complete game, he use to give it to Jordan and UNC in college days

and FlashinapanBolt keeps mentioning Jordan being 1-9/10 without Pippen also has to look at it as being 2-3 dynasty type teams out East with the Bucks who were no pushovers as well to comparing Lebron to the teams he had to face with Detroit and Celtics as being the toughest competition and he did same thing Jordan did by beating those teams when they were on the downside of its run, and he had to team up in Miami to get past the Celtics because for some reason they had his number, like Pistons did with the young Jordan until he got over the hump

it really comes down to who would you draft to start your franchise, that's how you know who the better more dominant player is

FlashBolt
05-21-2017, 12:22 AM
Yeah like Deng and Mozgov. They couldn't even keep Dwight anymore.

Jaylen Brown, a rookie had a bad game? Yeah he's done.

Who said we're signing everyone?

Bron is 32, that's young? He's gonna hit that wall at some point.

Yes making the East finals with a number 1 draft pick is a bad thing.

Do you ever notice how dumb your posts are or are you completely oblivious?

I could just go full moron like you and talk about how Bron is about to get smashed in this finals and how ignorant people like yourself who are not Bron fans are going to point out his finals record time and time again.

Do you just get defensive and try to discredit someone because you try and seem superior? Go find where it's dumb. I gave you FACTS.

1) Deng and Mosgov were the result of bad management. The guy is fired and replaced with Magic. They couldn't keep Dwight because of Kobe. Lakers are one of the best franchises to attract free agents because of their market. They surely have more leverage than the Celtics.

2) I never said he's done. You said Jaylen looks good as if he's going to become a threat to the Cavs or something. He's tough but that's all we know about him.

3) So you're not signing them and they are huge pieces of your team? That's not a good thing, you know?

4) Bron is 32 and is coming off the best playoffs of his career and just won a ring last year. Undisputed best player in the NBA... He's gonna hit the wall at some point but not two years.

5) Stop saying you made the East Finals. It's irrelevant. You're getting swept. And it'll be by wide margins. This was a depressing performance by the Boston. Much better if they lost to the Wizards, tbh. Now they just look demoralized. #1 draft pick, you draft Fultz. Okay, what then? What if he sucks? Be honest, what are the expectations with this guy?

6) Go look at what the Lakers have in 2018-2019. They'll have Lonzo+Ingram+Randle+DLO+room for two max players. Why do you act like Lakers are doomed?

Lakers don't have a proven guy? Who's proven in the Celtics? IT?

Pierzynski4Prez
05-21-2017, 12:23 AM
Yeah like Deng and Mozgov. They couldn't even keep Dwight anymore.

Jaylen Brown, a rookie had a bad game? Yeah he's done.

Who said we're signing everyone?

Bron is 32, that's young? He's gonna hit that wall at some point.

Yes making the East finals with a number 1 draft pick is a bad thing.

Do you ever notice how dumb your posts are or are you completely oblivious?

Lakers don't even have one proven guy yet. Can we talk when they do?

I could just go full moron like you and talk about how Bron is about to get smashed in this finals and how ignorant people like yourself who are not Bron fans are going to point out his finals record time and time again.

I agree. Arguing better future? Last I checked #1 pick is better than the #2 pick (yet his argument is AGAINST the celtics for it a month before the draft), and LA has no draft pick next year compared to the BRK pick.

FlashBolt
05-21-2017, 12:25 AM
1.


1. You have no choice
2. You still made an excuse for it
3. Great.

Horford's been playing great for the record. And IT had a great season. We're losing to the second greatest ever with a placeholder team. Come at me in 2 years when we're dominating.


I agree. Arguing better future? Last I checked #1 pick is better than the #2 pick (yet his argument is AGAINST the celtics for it a month before the draft), and LA has no draft pick next year compared to the BRK pick.

2018 Celtics:

IT
Horford
Fultz
*Another max player*
Brown




2018 Lakers:

Lonzo
Ingram
Randle
DLO
*Max Player 1*
*Max Player 2*

Last I checked, Lakers would have drafted Lonzo if they had #1 so who cares if they have #1 or #2. It's about who they draft. And most people say Lonzo is better than Fultz.

LOb0
05-21-2017, 12:32 AM
2018 Celtics:

IT
Horford
Fultz
*Another max player*
Brown




2018 Lakers:

Lonzo
Ingram
Randle
DLO
*Max Player 1*
*Max Player 2*

Last I checked, Lakers would have drafted Lonzo if they had #1 so who cares if they have #1 or #2. It's about who they draft. And most people say Lonzo is better than Fultz.

Most being almost no one? Maybe you mean Lonzo Ball's father.

That Celtics team sounds far better than that Lakers team. Which has zero proven guys so far.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-21-2017, 12:34 AM
I love how For you just typing Max Player 2x compared to 1x just automatically makes them better. Mike Conley was a max player. So are a ton of players who aren't worth the money.

And if most people think Ball is better, how can you possibly know the Celtics would pass on him, let alone knowing the Lakers think he's better.

Celtics have a ton more current talent (as evident by the 27 win differential), an equal amount of young talent not even in their primes, and a ton better assets going forward. Your FA predictions are worthless at this point.

FlashBolt
05-21-2017, 12:43 AM
1.


1. You have no choice
2. You still made an excuse for it
3. Great.

Horford's been playing great for the record. And IT had a great season. We're losing to the second greatest ever with a placeholder team. Come at me in 2 years when we're dominating.


Most being almost no one? Maybe you mean Lonzo Ball's father.

That Celtics team sounds far better than that Lakers team. Which has zero proven guys so far.

Most being NBA legends but I'll ignore that. You act as if the Lakers don't have a good future ahead of them and that it's impossible for them to BE better than the Celtics. I think Lakers have a better future because IT/Horford are not truly great players and they'll be two of your max guys. Don't lie, you underestimated the potential in the Lakers team because you simply didn't know about it.


I love how For you just typing Max Player 2x compared to 1x just automatically makes them better. Mike Conley was a max player. So are a ton of players who aren't worth the money.

And if most people think Ball is better, how can you possibly know the Celtics would pass on him, let alone knowing the Lakers think he's better.

Celtics have a ton more current talent (as evident by the 27 win differential), an equal amount of young talent not even in their primes, and a ton better assets going forward. Your FA predictions are worthless at this point.

Because markets matter and Lakers can attract higher quality free agents because of their market? I mean, I don't have to spell it out for you, do I? Mike Conley was a max player but the Lakers have already been on-record trying to target DeMarcus Cousins and PG. It's Magic Johnson in charge. Players respect and love the guy. He'll get a huge free agent easily at this point.

People think Ball is better in terms of many factors, actually. He led UCLA to a much better record. Wait, how many wins did Fultz generate? The only issue is his dad - which Luke already said they will ask the UCLA coach about whether or not his dad was a total issue. I can't speak for why Celtics want Fultz. I'd take him if I don't resign IT but there's no point in two guards who need volume scoring. I'd take Lonzo because it's tough to find a guy who can shoot and distribute with the size he has.

LA_Raiders
05-21-2017, 12:46 AM
MJ no question. He did not need to recruit all stars to win a ship. LeFlop has only won with another pair all stars (top 5) at their position.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-21-2017, 12:53 AM
Most being NBA legends but I'll ignore that. You act as if the Lakers don't have a good future ahead of them and that it's impossible for them to BE better than the Celtics. I think Lakers have a better future because IT/Horford are not truly great players and they'll be two of your max guys. Don't lie, you underestimated the potential in the Lakers team because you simply didn't know about it.



Because markets matter and Lakers can attract higher quality free agents because of their market? I mean, I don't have to spell it out for you, do I? Mike Conley was a max player but the Lakers have already been on-record trying to target DeMarcus Cousins and PG. It's Magic Johnson in charge. Players respect and love the guy. He'll get a huge free agent easily at this point.

People think Ball is better in terms of many factors, actually. He led UCLA to a much better record. Wait, how many wins did Fultz generate? The only issue is his dad - which Luke already said they will ask the UCLA coach about whether or not his dad was a total issue. I can't speak for why Celtics want Fultz. I'd take him if I don't resign IT but there's no point in two guards who need volume scoring. I'd take Lonzo because it's tough to find a guy who can shoot and distribute with the size he has.

What major FAs have the Lakers signedsince Shaq in free agency? Your only plug on why one team has a better future than an other here, and you have no proof other than your opinion. Essentially just spewing anything and everything here and it's getting you nowhere but backwards. Again your argument about Ball/Fultz has 0 merit at this time because we have no idea what will happen. ****, the argument might actually end up being Jimmy Butler vs Ball in terms of the pick and what it becomes.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-21-2017, 12:59 AM
FAs are flocking to winning teams more and more, not the biggest markets. Hell it could be argued that lately the largest markets end up overpaying just to get anyone because they're ****** teams. Look at NY and Chicago and LA last summer

WaDe03
05-21-2017, 12:59 AM
Q: Best Center Russell or Chamberlain
A: Chamberlain

Q: Best player ever, Michael Jordan or Lebron James or someone else
A: Wilt Chamberlain

Earl The Pearl Monroe interview

Jordan/Lebron are battling for 2nd and 3rd respectively or possibly lower depending on who you ask

if I had to draft a player out of those two to start my franchise I am going with the UNC player of the year over the HS phenom, Jordan was a little bit more ready and had way better coaching leading up to coming into the nba to prepare him

on a side note if Len Bias had not passed away he possibly would have been looked upon better than both since he was basically Lebron(frame wise/athlete) with a jumpshot+complete game, he use to give it to Jordan and UNC in college days

and FlashinapanBolt keeps mentioning Jordan being 1-9/10 without Pippen also has to look at it as being 2-3 dynasty type teams out East with the Bucks who were no pushovers as well to comparing Lebron to the teams he had to face with Detroit and Celtics as being the toughest competition and he did same thing Jordan did by beating those teams when they were on the downside of its run, and he had to team up in Miami to get past the Celtics because for some reason they had his number, like Pistons did with the young Jordan until he got over the hump

it really comes down to who would you draft to start your franchise, that's how you know who the better more dominant player is

Best player ever?
A from Wade: Jordan

Because of this Wilt isn't the best lmao!

WaDe03
05-21-2017, 12:59 AM
Really good discussion going on in here.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-21-2017, 01:02 AM
Really good discussion going on in here.

I hope this is sarcastic because it's god awful, and I apologize for my role in it.

WaDe03
05-21-2017, 01:03 AM
I hope this is sarcastic because it's god awful, and I apologize for my role in it.

Haha it's gotten a little off topic the last 2 pages but before that was pretty solid.

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2017, 01:39 AM
Best player ever?
A from Wade: Jordan

Because of this Wilt isn't the best lmao!

The interviewer asked Monroe who is the best ever Jordan or Lebron or someone else, he basically used the popular choice/ names that the media screams out and Monroe answered with Wilt

I was using that as what my answer would be not what your answer or anybody else, so if you think Wade or Jordan is then that is your free thinking will

no need to laugh your *** off, just smirk and sip a Coke

FOXHOUND
05-21-2017, 02:47 AM
2) Like I said, the perimeter players in that era was weak. Much weaker. The perimeter players today are much better. Do you think Clyde sniffs the all-nba 1st team in this era? LMAO, no way. He would be a total after thought. He would probably barely make it in the all-nba 3rd team. I mean, D. Lillard and Chris Paul didn't even make it. Drexler was good but think about it, the guy was probably Jordan's TOUGHEST rival at that position.. who else? Wilkins? I'd take Melo over Wilkins any day. Who else? Please, give me names!!!!! When GP had the chance, he put the clamps on Jordan. Jordan shot like 42% in the field in that series. What if it was Jordan vs Kawhi, Jordan vs KD, Jordan vs Melo, Jordan vs Wade, Jordan vs prime Kobe, Jordan vs Harden, Jordan vs Westy. I mean, where are these guys during Jordan's time?

3) Ask anyone: Duncan's presence in the Spurs that time wasn't offensively - which you seem to be focusing on. Like I said, BBallref can only help so much. Duncan was ON that team specifically to DEFEND. He was still probably the best rim protector and a top 5 defensive player. So that wasn't even a peak Duncan. Spurs were more than just Duncan. Much more.

2) And the bigs were stronger. Much stronger. What do you think this bearded fool is doing in an NBA dominated by the bigs of the early 90's? Hakeem, Ewing, DRob, Mutombo, etc. Where are all of the great defensive bigs and rim protectors in today's NBA? What do you think Westbrook is shooting when he has to drive in the paint against that? You don't think GP is putting the clamps on all of these guards you're mentioning? Can you imagine? lol

Jordan would be fine vs all of those guys, because he's clearly better. Kawhi is a beastly defender for sure, and prime Kobe too. The 90's was one of the stingiest defensive eras in NBA history, you're talking about this backwards. What if all of those guys had to play Jordan? What if LeBron had to play in an era that was extremely half court based and crowded with big men clogging the paint? What if he had to rely on his jumper much more? That conversation can go both ways.

Drexler is one of the best SG's of all-time, I don't know why you're dissing him. You think he finished 2nd in MVP voting that season because guards were weak? Last time I checked, that was a league wide award. Drexler put up those numbers in that era, imagine what he would do in today's more free flowing game? Maybe you need a refresher on who Drexler was lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR5DCIZTkpM

Also, how are you going to talk about Jordan dominating Clyde as a bad thing or no big deal? When did LeBron ever dominate a great SF in the Finals? He didn't dominate Durant, that's for sure. Kawhi wasn't great yet, but he sure didn't dominate him either.

Maybe he'll dominate Durant this time, we'll see.

3) Yeah, of course. You don't think I know why Duncan was there? That wasn't even close to peak Duncan, I'm aware. Malone won MVP in 97 and 99 for a reason and is the 2nd greatest PF in NBA history for a reason. If that was closer to peak Duncan then LeBron is never winning that title and barely did as it is. Hell, if Pop doesn't inexplicably take Duncan off the court for Diaw at the end of game 6 he isn't winning even against 36-year old Duncan.

More-Than-Most
05-21-2017, 02:52 AM
the thing with the lakers is... so far Russ hasnt worked out and doesnt seem to be their long term player... ingram looked horrid last year but it is his first year but yea the dude has the potential no doubt much like russ... They dont have their pick next year and getting PG means they likely have to ship players out even if they wait to sign him in free agency...On top of this they wont keep randle either... I dunno...

Take away my love for DLO for a sec.

Ball/ingram... After that its bare right now... I hate the celtics as much as the next guy but their on another level with young talent... Now if they sign IT long term then LAWLs

More-Than-Most
05-21-2017, 05:32 AM
http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-rumors-l-a-would-easily-part-with-dangelo-russell-and-julius-randle/2017/05/20/

plenty of rumors saying they would easily package randle/DLO... Its sad but true... The lakers future is ingram/ball and then its slim pickings... I think its a mistake to trade DLO but whatever i love the guy.

effen5
05-21-2017, 06:23 AM
Really?

Jordan vs melo? I don't think Melo has been relevant this ****ing decade

Jordan vs Harden? You don't think Jordan would lock down harden? And how is harden suppose to guard Jordan? I can't remember a time when harden has even tried on defense

Jordan vs Westbrook? Jordan would lock down Westbrook ...westbrook would not be able to guard Jordan

Jordan vs prime wade? Wade has had a fine career but there's no way he could beat Jordan

Jordan vs Kobe....Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan...but we all know he's just a less efficient Jordan

I mean you had all 3 westbrook harden and Durant on one team and all of them are still looking for a title...there's no way anyone of them together or separately could beat the 90s bulls.

Heediot
05-21-2017, 07:58 AM
2) Like I said, the perimeter players in that era was weak. Much weaker. The perimeter players today are much better. Do you think Clyde sniffs the all-nba 1st team in this era? LMAO, no way. He would be a total after thought. He would probably barely make it in the all-nba 3rd team. I mean, D. Lillard and Chris Paul didn't even make it. Drexler was good but think about it, the guy was probably Jordan's TOUGHEST rival at that position.. who else? Wilkins? I'd take Melo over Wilkins any day. Who else? Please, give me names!!!!! When GP had the chance, he put the clamps on Jordan. Jordan shot like 42% in the field in that series. What if it was Jordan vs Kawhi, Jordan vs KD, Jordan vs Melo, Jordan vs Wade, Jordan vs prime Kobe, Jordan vs Harden, Jordan vs Westy. I mean, where are these guys during Jordan's time?

Outside of Jordan, perimeter players back in the 90's weak relative to the history of the league, I'll agree to that. Put Drexler in this era, I don't think he's worse vs. Derozan, same game but Clyde has better/smoother shot, cleaner handles, better ball iq and passing. If you guys like Clyde, Mark Price, Reggie, and Tim Hardaway in today's league their stats would be inflated too so you have to consider that.

The current rule changes and current style of play is catered to ball handlers and shooters. Linsanity doesn't happen in the 90's. Seth Curry and Yogi Ferrell as your starting back-court doesn't happen either. The current rules make it so much easier to score for perimeter players it's not even funny. The game has evolved into a three point fest or a pick n roll dominated game. It's a lot easier to drive and kick, when you can barely be touched starting your drive and three second defensive rules leaving the lanes less clogged.

Back in the 90's most offense were inside out vs. now outside in. the top scoring bigs can't even impact the game as much as in the Past. AD, Cousins and KAT put up pretty numbers but were not really close to making the playoffs. Play-making bigs like Marc Gasol, Jokic, and Draymond seem to making more of an impact with their play-making, and Gasol and Dray also add defense. It's also no coincidence that Kahwi, Butler and Derozan have gotten better in correlation with their ball handling getting better. Paul George too to a small degree, but he always had decent handles. So yeah the way the game is payed now strongly caters to guys who can handle the rock. Handchecking and clogged paints also force guys to develop stronger mid range games back when Jordan played.

SF is a more important position two-ways nowadays vs. the 90's and before where two way bigs were more important. It's just the evolution of the game and position-less basketball being played now. The roles for players have changed. Versatilty is the name of the game now with position-less ball, in the 90's players were tasked and groomed differently.

The historically, the top 10 scoring lists each year were more balance between bigs and perimeter guys, in this current day and age you'd be hard pressed to have more three bigs guys in the top 20 of scoring. It's just the nature of how the game is called and how the game has moved along.

Heediot
05-21-2017, 09:13 AM
Jordan was a better mid range shooter than Kobe, this isn't a debate.


Lol and Lebron scores most of his points and gets most of his assists blowing by his man that can't touch him. No one in NBA history and benefited more from that.

It's true. Today's rules help James with the way he plays. But I do respect his work ethic is jumper/3 is legit moving forward, although I don't think he can keep up this post season's 3 point rate.



And maybe you didn't know but Jordan didn't play against zone defense... which made it easier for Jordan to attack the paint... which is what allowed Jordan to score most of his points. so rules are rules but let's stop acting like Jordan went through WWII. More fouls and FT's called back at his time than present era of basketball. go check it.

It's still way easier to drive and attack the rim in today's game. It can be argued that the lanes were more clogged back then because of less stretch bigs. I think both era have illegal defense. There is no true zones in today's league, so the lane isn't as clogged as people think.

Jamiecballer
05-21-2017, 10:26 AM
I would justify it a few ways for arguments sake.

1st if you have 5 Jordan's on the floor you would have 5 30 point career avg players who were at there peak in the playoffs. No one has ever locked down Jordan so 5 of him would not be any easier.
LeBron career avg 26. Jordan 30. Based on this stay alone Jordan would win.

LeBron score 104
Jordan Score 120

LeBron is much more passive and loves to pass, just because LeBron is bigger, there are more holes in his game Jordan could exploit. Lebrons post up game and jump shot are weak, Jordan as a defender is lock down. Its great that LeBron can guard 5 positions on the floor, but no one can lock down Jordan, moot point. Just because he has 2 inches on Jordan and has a more well rounded game than Jordan. As a pure clutch scorer, and 1 on 1 defender MJ is deadly especially in a playoff scenario.

Also assuming this is the finals, track record would say Jordan would win. He is 6-0 in the finals, adding 4 Jordan's to a Jordan led team would not make them worse, that would be insane.

Jordan's in 5...

ok, that's great, and i appreciate all that, but you missed what i was saying. i asked how you could justify saying jordan was better if you thought a team of 5 lebrons was would be better than a team of 5 jordans. you obviously don't.

Heediot
05-21-2017, 10:56 AM
ok, that's great, and i appreciate all that, but you missed what i was saying. i asked how you could justify saying jordan was better if you thought a team of 5 lebrons was would be better than a team of 5 jordans. you obviously don't.

Do you think 5 LeBrons can beat 5 Hakeems?

GREATNESS ONE
05-21-2017, 11:02 AM
Jordan's better because of accomplishments but it's reached a point where on a PURE basketball discussion, take out accomplishments and rings, LeBron is right up there with anyone - including Jordan. If you wanna talk rings, Jordan doesn't go 6-0 against the Warriors but I do think LeBron goes 6-0 against poor Barkley, watered down Lakers, a Clyde Drexler who wouldn't even be an All-Star in the WC today, choker Malone, and Kemp+GP.

Lolololololololol :smoking: pass it this way next.

GREATNESS ONE
05-21-2017, 11:06 AM
http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-rumors-l-a-would-easily-part-with-dangelo-russell-and-julius-randle/2017/05/20/

plenty of rumors saying they would easily package randle/DLO... Its sad but true... The lakers future is ingram/ball and then its slim pickings... I think its a mistake to trade DLO but whatever i love the guy.

Dario Saric for DLO...

KingPosey
05-21-2017, 12:07 PM
Hey everyone stop what you're doing and convince him immediately.

KingPosey
05-21-2017, 12:13 PM
1) uhhh, yes he was. And he was also better at footwork. But it's pretty much established that Kobe was a better shooter and Jordan better at attacking the paint because of his big hands.

2) he shot 42% - which means he had a bad time shooting? And those were his PAINT SHOTS included. Go watch the replay. Jordan rarely hit any jump shots.. which you're saying 100% he would have done vs the best defense in the NBA that season, the Warriors.

And maybe you didn't know but Jordan didn't play against zone defense... which made it easier for Jordan to attack the paint... which is what allowed Jordan to score most of his points. so rules are rules but let's stop acting like Jordan went through WWII. More fouls and FT's called back at his time than present era of basketball. go check it.
Lol it's harder to get to the paint now than then? What the **** are you even talking about man.

valade16
05-21-2017, 12:36 PM
Lol it's harder to get to the paint now than then? What the **** are you even talking about man.

Another thing we need to consider is how many more FTs Jordan would be getting. His FTr in Chicago was .374 and his FTr before his first retirement was .384, his highest was .459 his rookie season.

Harden this season is at a whopping .575.

carter80
05-21-2017, 02:29 PM
its Jordan and its not close. Lebron has had many question marks through out his career. This Boston Celtics team is full of tomatoes, and were still the #1 seed. Imagine Jordan letting that happen. The weak *** Eastern conference is the reason while Lebron makes the finals, and when he faces a good team in the finals he loses. 90's Utah Jazz, Houston Rockets, and Knicks would all beat the Cavs this year. Last years championship was a gift.

WaDe03
05-21-2017, 02:42 PM
Hey everyone stop what you're doing and convince him immediately.

Kicks rocks with this nonsense

WaDe03
05-21-2017, 02:42 PM
If LeBron came before Jordan would we be saying he is the GOAT and Jordan was the one trying to catch him?

valade16
05-21-2017, 03:17 PM
If LeBron came before Jordan would we be saying he is the GOAT and Jordan was the one trying to catch him?

Maybe at first yeah but if Jordan was later consider the most championships for anyone in the modern era would be 5 by Kareem and Magic. If MJ came after and won 6 people would be telling Bron to step aside because MJ is the GOAT.

Or put another way, if Bron somehow wins 7 titles do you think there will be any real debate over who GOAT is?

WaDe03
05-21-2017, 04:11 PM
Maybe at first yeah but if Jordan was later consider the most championships for anyone in the modern era would be 5 by Kareem and Magic. If MJ came after and won 6 people would be telling Bron to step aside because MJ is the GOAT.

Or put another way, if Bron somehow wins 7 titles do you think there will be any real debate over who GOAT is?

Good point, it remains to be seen. If he can pull it off this year agaisnt the most stacked team in history he may pass Jordan in my eyes.

IKnowHoops
05-21-2017, 04:45 PM
its Jordan and its not close. Lebron has had many question marks through out his career. This Boston Celtics team is full of tomatoes, and were still the #1 seed. Imagine Jordan letting that happen. The weak *** Eastern conference is the reason while Lebron makes the finals, and when he faces a good team in the finals he loses. 90's Utah Jazz, Houston Rockets, and Knicks would all beat the Cavs this year. Last years championship was a gift.

Uh no. Last years Cavs team beat a GS team better than any team MJ ever faced. And his help isn't as good as Jordans

FOXHOUND
05-21-2017, 04:49 PM
Jordan was in the GOAT conversation already when he was 24-25 years old lol. He had already dropped 63 on Boston, year 2 postseason at age 23, he had already averaged 37 PPG, year 3 age 23-24, he had already averaged 35 PPG and won MVP and DPOY in the same year, year 4 age 24-25.

http://history.bulls.com/god-disguised-as-michael-jordan/

There's a certain legend and mystique to Jordan, and some think nostalgia has a hold on him that nobody will ever match. But really, there's a reason why he made the impact he did. There's a reason why Larry Bird said that he was "God disguised as Michael Jordan" at the age of 23.

The thing is that you're thinking of this backwards. LeBron accomplished many great things when he was young, but he also came into the NBA with an insane hype machine around him. Every thing he did was treated as the best thing ever. He took the Cavs to the Finals at the age of 22, but other than game 5 vs Detroit, did he really have any great games in that run?

The east was pathetically weak that year, the Pistons were the 1 seed at just 53-wins (weakest since this current Boston team lol). He played the 41-win Wizards in the 1st round and shot .425 in a 4 game sweep. He played the 41-win Nets in the 2nd round and shot .423 in a 6 game series. He played the 53-win Pistons in the 3rd round and shot .449 in a 6 game series. Game 5 he was tremendous and he had a very strong game 3 but in the other 4 games he shot 5-15, 7-19, 8-19 and 3-11. In the Finals they played the 58-win Spurs, the Cavs were swept and LeBron shot .356 with 5.8 TO.

Now, think back to the narrative of that playoff run. People were acting like Moses split the red sea, that he overcame some incredible odds as opposed to actually playing below his standards vs very weak playoff teams, that he did the unthinkable when in reality that should have been expected since he was far, far better than the best player on any of those teams. We excuse him for losing that Finals, as ugly as he played, because the Spurs were so good and the Cavs bad. Really, we excuse him for losing that Finals because he had no business being there. He didn't exactly follow it up with a strong postseason either. He needed 6 games to defeat the 43-win Wizards and then started the series vs Boston with the worst 4-game shooting stretch in playoff history.

Now, imagine Michael Jordan coming in the NBA in 2003. Imagine Michael Jordan having the hype machine as possibly being the next, well, Michael Jordan/The GOAT. Imagine a 23-year old Michael Jordan in today's media landscape facing off against the 67-win Celtics with Larry Bird, a team with 5 HOF players, with nothing much around him. He starts with game 1 dropping 49 points. He comes back in game 2 and almost single handily beats them with an NBA playoff record 63 points. What do you think the narrative is there?

LeBron is great, truly one of the all-time best, but Jordan is Jordan.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-21-2017, 05:14 PM
Someone said it in another thread on here (forgot which(, but if Lebron wins the title this year with that Warriors team, he's the GOAT.

I happen to agree.

Jamiecballer
05-21-2017, 06:00 PM
Do you think 5 LeBrons can beat 5 Hakeems?

i think it's kind of a stupid question to throw a 7 foot big into the equation as if it's all that similar but yes, absolutely i do. with that kind of speed advantage all they'd have to do is sprint down the court on every possession.

valade16
05-21-2017, 06:16 PM
I think it's kind of a stupid question to throw a 7 foot big into the equation as if it's all that similar but yes, absolutely i do. with that kind of speed advantage all they'd have to do is sprint down the court on every possession.

Do you think a team of 5 LeBron's would beat a team of 5 of any other player in NBA history?

Heediot
05-21-2017, 06:17 PM
i think it's kind of a stupid question to throw a 7 foot big into the equation as if it's all that similar but yes, absolutely i do. with that kind of speed advantage all they'd have to do is sprint down the court on every possession.

I think you are under-estimating Hakeem's agility and Speed. I think he can make up more ground then you give him credit for. In a foot race I think he'd go toe to toe with Magic, whom you think can give LeBron somewhat of a challenge. I see where your coming from if this was Shaq, Dirk, or Ewing. Him and David Robinson were athletic marvels with the ability to gracefully run the floor and handle the rock. Hakeem also played soccer when he was younger which also helps his endurance and floor running ability. His length and all around game would be a problem for any one to defend. He had a more consistent mid range Jumper vs. LeBron to boot. Defensively five Hakeems is a tough task to score on, LBJ's offensive game is not as varied as Jordan, but what he does well he does it exceptionally. But I think Hakeem's defense can hold his own and he has somecounters to Lebron's strength on that end. I think Hakeem will get more of what he wants on LBJ on the offensive side then James would on him.

My main point is 5 Paul George's may be able to beat 5 Chris Paul's, but that does not make him a better player.

IKnowHoops
05-21-2017, 06:24 PM
Jordan was in the GOAT conversation already when he was 24-25 years old lol. He had already dropped 63 on Boston, year 2 postseason at age 23, he had already averaged 37 PPG, year 3 age 23-24, he had already averaged 35 PPG and won MVP and DPOY in the same year, year 4 age 24-25.

http://history.bulls.com/god-disguised-as-michael-jordan/

There's a certain legend and mystique to Jordan, and some think nostalgia has a hold on him that nobody will ever match. But really, there's a reason why he made the impact he did. There's a reason why Larry Bird said that he was "God disguised as Michael Jordan" at the age of 23.

The thing is that you're thinking of this backwards. LeBron accomplished many great things when he was young, but he also came into the NBA with an insane hype machine around him. Every thing he did was treated as the best thing ever. He took the Cavs to the Finals at the age of 22, but other than game 5 vs Detroit, did he really have any great games in that run?

The east was pathetically weak that year, the Pistons were the 1 seed at just 53-wins (weakest since this current Boston team lol). He played the 41-win Wizards in the 1st round and shot .425 in a 4 game sweep. He played the 41-win Nets in the 2nd round and shot .423 in a 6 game series. He played the 53-win Pistons in the 3rd round and shot .449 in a 6 game series. Game 5 he was tremendous and he had a very strong game 3 but in the other 4 games he shot 5-15, 7-19, 8-19 and 3-11. In the Finals they played the 58-win Spurs, the Cavs were swept and LeBron shot .356 with 5.8 TO.

Now, think back to the narrative of that playoff run. People were acting like Moses split the red sea, that he overcame some incredible odds as opposed to actually playing below his standards vs very weak playoff teams, that he did the unthinkable when in reality that should have been expected since he was far, far better than the best player on any of those teams. We excuse him for losing that Finals, as ugly as he played, because the Spurs were so good and the Cavs bad. Really, we excuse him for losing that Finals because he had no business being there. He didn't exactly follow it up with a strong postseason either. He needed 6 games to defeat the 43-win Wizards and then started the series vs Boston with the worst 4-game shooting stretch in playoff history.

Now, imagine Michael Jordan coming in the NBA in 2003. Imagine Michael Jordan having the hype machine as possibly being the next, well, Michael Jordan/The GOAT. Imagine a 23-year old Michael Jordan in today's media landscape facing off against the 67-win Celtics with Larry Bird, a team with 5 HOF players, with nothing much around him. He starts with game 1 dropping 49 points. He comes back in game 2 and almost single handily beats them with an NBA playoff record 63 points. What do you think the narrative is there?

LeBron is great, truly one of the all-time best, but Jordan is Jordan.

Yes and there is a reason Larry later said that Lebron could be better than anyone ever.

IKnowHoops
05-21-2017, 06:31 PM
I think you are under-estimating Hakeem's agility and Speed. I think he can make up more ground then you give him credit for. In a foot race I think he'd go toe to toe with Magic, whom you think can give LeBron somewhat of a challenge. I see where your coming from if this was Shaq, Dirk, or Ewing. Him and David Robinson were athletic marvels with the ability to gracefully run the floor and handle the rock. Hakeem also played soccer when he was younger which also helps his endurance and floor running ability. His length and all around game would be a problem for any one to defend. He had a more consistent mid range Jumper vs. LeBron to boot. Defensively five Hakeems is a tough task to score on, LBJ's offensive game is not as varied as Jordan, but what he does well he does it exceptionally. But I think Hakeem's defense can hold his own and he has somecounters to Lebron's strength on that end. I think Hakeem will get more of what he wants on LBJ on the offensive side then James would on him.

My main point is 5 Paul George's may be able to beat 5 Chris Paul's, but that does not make him a better player.

5 Brons beats 5 dreams. Wouldn't be easy but they would be a better team with unbelievably amazing chemistry. Every pass is perfectly placed for a finisher who can finish anything. Team chemistry would kill people more than the athletic ability.

Heediot
05-21-2017, 06:37 PM
5 Brons beats 5 dreams. Wouldn't be easy but they would be a better team with unbelievably amazing chemistry. Every pass is perfectly placed for a finisher who can finish anything. Team chemistry would kill people more than the athletic ability.

Not too sure. Hakeem is in the conversation as GOAT defender. 5 Hakeems with his ability to switch on perimeter players, his length, shot blocking, quick hands and feet and iq, is a tough task for anyone to score on. Especially guys he has 4-5 inches on. I wonder more about how lebron would be able to guard Hakeem? He was more versatile offensively and could move like a guard.

mngopher35
05-21-2017, 07:58 PM
I don't get why we care if our hypothetical 5 lebrons beat 5 whoevers? Like do people think this is a good argument of something?

Heediot
05-21-2017, 08:05 PM
I don't get why we care if our hypothetical 5 lebrons beat 5 whoevers? Like do people think this is a good argument of something?

it's something worth considering and looking into, but when i personally went deeper into it, I couldn't fully agree with its premise.

nastynice
05-21-2017, 08:15 PM
If Jordan and lebron were in the league together, in the same conference, Lebron's growth would be ridiculously stunted. I dont think he'd become what he is today. Jordan's from a different era, you can't compare the two.

See, Jordan will talk ****, ask dikembe how he wants him to shoot his free throw, close his eyes and shoot it, then get the ball the next possession, tell dikembe it's coming, then dunk it over one of the best rim protectors in the league, and then give him the no no figure. That's who Jordan was. Lebron won't take it that far because he's afraid of being made a fool of. Jordan isn't, he doesn't think it's possible for anyone to make a fool of him. Iverson proved otherwise, but still, that was his mentality. He's a born killer

Lebron doesn't have an innate killer in him, that's why you see him try to develop it, and it comes and goes.

That doesn't in itself make Jordan a better overall player, but the gap between the two in most categories is quite small, but in this its huge. Probably the most lopsided advantage one has over the other in this debate

tredigs
05-21-2017, 08:54 PM
I don't get why we care if our hypothetical 5 lebrons beat 5 whoevers? Like do people think this is a good argument of something?

Agreed, it is a completely meaningless hypothetical. Surprised it got any traction.

pacofunk64
05-21-2017, 09:13 PM
It will be hard for anyone to pass Jordan as the undisputed GOAT. Mainly because he was the the first to do a lot of things. His impact is still felt today, 20 years after his prime! To me it's more than the great things he did on the court but the legacy he left on basketball itself.

Jamiecballer
05-21-2017, 09:39 PM
Do you think a team of 5 LeBron's would beat a team of 5 of any other player in NBA history?
I can't think of any that I would say no to, let's put it that way. You?

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
05-21-2017, 09:46 PM
I don't get why we care if our hypothetical 5 lebrons beat 5 whoevers? Like do people think this is a good argument of something?
For players who are comparable, I find the idea that someone could be better but lose a hypothetical 5 on 5 against the other a bit of mental gymnastics imo. Forgot Paul George/Chris Paul or Lebron/Hakeem but a true comparable? Sounds like mental gymnastics to me.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

FOXHOUND
05-21-2017, 09:54 PM
For players who are comparable, I find the idea that someone could be better but lose a hypothetical 5 on 5 against the other a bit of mental gymnastics imo. Forgot Paul George/Chris Paul or Lebron/Hakeem but a true comparable? Sounds like mental gymnastics to me.

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It's such a wacky premise though lol. How would one Jordan even play off another Jordan? Would Jordan #4 get annoyed if he wasn't getting his shots? Would Jordan #5 be ready for game time if he got a stomach flu in Utah?

Jeffy25
05-21-2017, 10:32 PM
It's too early for Bron to be in the Jordan category, but he can get there.

And I don't think he will ever pass Jordan.

For me, it takes one of two things to happen to be in the 1B.

He can reach 35K points, 10K boards, 10K assists. That's just too much to be ignored when compared to Jordan.

Or, he can get another Finals MVP while racking up the career numbers.

But to pass Jordan, it's basically going to take more Finals MVP's then he has time to get, or an insane durability career.

LeBron is in his age 32 season, which is the same year that Jordan earned his 4th title.

Bron isn't done folks. It's too early to call his career.

YAALREADYKNO
05-22-2017, 01:04 PM
As great as lebron is he always seems to have a playoff game where he totally looks disengaged. Don't think I've ever saw that from Jordan even when he struggled shooting the ball

LOb0
05-22-2017, 04:30 PM
As great as lebron is he always seems to have a playoff game where he totally looks disengaged. Don't think I've ever saw that from Jordan even when he struggled shooting the ball

Bron's done this many times in his career.. 2010, 2011, 2014.

DoMeFavors
05-22-2017, 05:19 PM
Lebron is better at EVERY single aspect of the game except offensive scoring
LeBron is the best player this game has ever or will ever see.
MJ got steals cause he was allowed to foul on EVERY possesion, MJ also got so many foul shots on cheap fouls.
Put Lebron on the bulls and not retire like Jordan he wins 15 titles.

WaDe03
05-22-2017, 05:36 PM
Lebron is better at EVERY single aspect of the game except offensive scoring
LeBron is the best player this game has ever or will ever see.
MJ got steals cause he was allowed to foul on EVERY possesion, MJ also got so many foul shots on cheap fouls.
Put Lebron on the bulls and not retire like Jordan he wins 15 titles.

Wow, now I'm convinced!

One Nut Kruk
05-22-2017, 09:15 PM
Wow, now I'm convinced!

No doubt. He wins.

Mr.B
05-22-2017, 09:41 PM
Lebron is better at EVERY single aspect of the game except offensive scoring
LeBron is the best player this game has ever or will ever see.
MJ got steals cause he was allowed to foul on EVERY possesion, MJ also got so many foul shots on cheap fouls.
Put Lebron on the bulls and not retire like Jordan he wins 15 titles.

I think all of the other Bulls players would have just got in Labron's way. Take all those guys off the team and Labron wins 25 titles.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 12:14 AM
When has Lebron disappeared since after 2011? I mean one or two games isn't a large sample size. He's been near unstoppable since then. Can't be debated.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:01 AM
When has Lebron disappeared since after 2011? I mean one or two games isn't a large sample size. He's been near unstoppable since then. Can't be debated.

2014 was bad. Not that he lost, but he was passing the ball around as the Spurs were running up the score board. Its like Bron, please stop chest passing to Mario Chalmers and stop this 6-0, 8-0 run. Spurs were better that year but..he went out badly.

Not comparing the teams here but, if you watched those Bulls Jazz series you could see the Jazz at home were ready to blow the Bulls. no one else was doing a damn thing on Chicago, so Jordan made sure he kept the game close. LeBron, was chest passing at the 3 point line. Somewhat similar to his first 4 games against the Warriors last year before he went God mode.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:06 AM
2014 was bad. Not that he lost, but he was passing the ball around as the Spurs were running up the score board. Its like Bron, please stop chest passing to Mario Chalmers and stop this 6-0, 8-0 run. Spurs were better that year but..he went out badly.

Not comparing the teams here but, if you watched those Bull Jazz series you could see the Jazz were ready to blow the Bulls out, no one else was doing a damn thing on Chicago, so Jordan made sure he kept the game close. LeBron, was chest passing at the 3 point line.

2014 was a year in which a team just played lights out, though. I never thought Miami lost it but Spurs just won it. The series was over not because of James but Pop even said, let James score and make his teammates do everything else. His teammates just did nothing. Game 1, LeBron gets the cramps. Up 7 when he leaves, down 15 the rest of the game. 22 net rating in 6 minutes. With how the Spurs played, they were great enough to beat ANY team. Just the ball movement alone was disturbing to watch. Too good.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:12 AM
Lebron was the only guy on the Heat that showed up that year. He didn't take over but he definitely didn't disappear or play bad. Lebron averaged as much as Wade and Bosh combined that series.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:15 AM
Lebron was the only guy on the Heat that showed up that year. He didn't take over but he definitely didn't disappear or play bad. Lebron averaged as much as Wade and Bosh combined that series.

Well, they're saying he didn't do as much as he should but in reality, he can't force his teammates to play well. There wasn't a single teammate that did play well. When Manu is outplaying Wade, and Manu is a 4th option while Wade is a 2nd option, there's nothing ANYONE can do. The way the Spurs played, though.. I can't blame anyone. That was just total domination finish to end. Spurs shot 47% from three. That's unheard of. You will beat anyone with that kind of shooting.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:17 AM
Also, the discussion should really be more about how close Lebron will get to Jordan relative to everyone else, as opposed to if Lebron will surpass Jordan.

When you talk about surpassing Jordan, people always give Jordan the benefit of the doubt and focus directly on Lebron's failures.

Hopefully a discussion about how close he would get would take some of the bitterness away since it admits that Lebron can't surpass Jordan but appreciates his greatness as opposed to focusing on his failures.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:17 AM
2014 was a year in which a team just played lights out, though. I never thought Miami lost it but Spurs just won it. The series was over not because of James but Pop even said, let James score and make his teammates do everything else. His teammates just did nothing. Game 1, LeBron gets the cramps. Up 7 when he leaves, down 15 the rest of the game. 22 net rating in 6 minutes. With how the Spurs played, they were great enough to beat ANY team. Just the ball movement alone was disturbing to watch. Too good.

Bron has one flaw, he can become this odd passive player. If LeBron went out in 5 against the Warriors last year, it would have been the same "Well Warriors are better". But Bron turned up the aggression in the last 3 and look what happened. That's what I wanted to see against the Spurs.

Not that he needed to score 41 twice, but that level of aggression. That's why he should get blame. There was a complete lack of that against the Spurs. Just like those first 4 games against the Warriors last year.

In no way am I saying he should have beat the Spurs, they were better with Wade basically crippled.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:18 AM
Well, they're saying he didn't do as much as he should but in reality, he can't force his teammates to play well. There wasn't a single teammate that did play well. When Manu is outplaying Wade, and Manu is a 4th option while Wade is a 2nd option, there's nothing ANYONE can do. The way the Spurs played, though.. I can't blame anyone. That was just total domination finish to end. Spurs shot 47% from three. That's unheard of. You will beat anyone with that kind of shooting.

If you asked me how well would Lebron play before that season started, I probably would give you numbers generally near what he ended up averaging. I wonder what the answers would be for everyone else.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:21 AM
Bron has one flaw, he can become this odd passive player. If LeBron went out in 5 against the Warriors last year, it would have been the same "Well Warriors are better". But Bron turned up the aggression in the last 3 and look what happened. That's what I wanted to see against the Spurs.

Not that he needed to score 41 twice, but that level of aggression. That's why he should get blame. There was a complete lack of that against the Spurs. Just like those first 4 games against the Warriors last year.

In no way am I saying he should have beat the Spurs, they were better with Wade basically crippled.

Being an aggressive player like that isn't something everyone can do. He's probably failed at that more often than not. Why would he go aggressive if the chances of him failing are higher, meaning he's taking his team out of it even more.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:23 AM
Being an aggressive player like that isn't something everyone can do. He's probably failed at that more often than not. Why would he go aggressive if the chances of him failing are higher, meaning he's taking his team out of it even more.

When no one one your team is scoring, and the other team is on a run, what would Jordan do?

That ball is going in that basket one way or another. If LeBron has trouble doing that then this thread is a waste.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:26 AM
When no one one your team is scoring, and the other team is on a run, what would Jordan do?

That ball is going in that basket one way or another. If LeBron has trouble doing that then this thread is a waste.

Your logic implies that Jordan can score against anyone and win. How did that work out before Pippen? Stop assuming Jordan could have done this or that when he couldn't for six or so seasons. I don't understand it. Was Jordan 13-0 in rings?

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:33 AM
Your logic implies that Jordan can score against anyone and win. How did that work out before Pippen? Stop assuming Jordan could have done this or that when he couldn't for six or so seasons. I don't understand it. Was Jordan 13-0 in rings?

Will you please stop going to this caveman argument.

Look at the other post for context. Jordan isn't chest passing the ball to Steve Kerr when a team is on an 8-0 run. Never once did say he could do any of the things you're saying.

LeBron James is capable of scoring almost at will, but at times he simply doesn't. He gets passive. He did it last year, he did it 2014, he did it in 2011, 2010. He's done it. He did it last playoff game.

You don't' need to go all insane about Jordan, slow down and read first.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:33 AM
When no one one your team is scoring, and the other team is on a run, what would Jordan do?

That ball is going in that basket one way or another. If LeBron has trouble doing that then this thread is a waste.

Well then that's your problem right there.

You want to hold Lebron to a standard you know he can't meet then criticize him when he fails at it. You want him to do XYZ when he doesn't have XYZ skill (that Jordan happen to have) as opposed to looking at how successful Lebron was in maximizing his own skills and comparing the 2 results.

I believe Jordan is better than Lebron (and that being #2 is the closest Lebron can get to Jordan) but I couldn't understand how you would try to compare on how Lebron fares to Jordan's skill as opposed to how their overall contribution were. How Jordan won a title isn't the model every player should use.

When you compare Shaq to Russell, do you focus on how well Shaq was relative to Russell's defense?

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:36 AM
Well then that's your problem right there.

You want to hold Lebron to a standard you know he can't meet then criticize him when he fails at it. You want him to do XYZ when he doesn't have XYZ skill (that Jordan happen to have) as opposed to looking at how successful he was in maximizing his own skills and comparing the 2 results.

I believe Jordan is better than Lebron (and that being #2 is the closest Lebron can get to Jordan) but I couldn't understand how you would try to compare on how Lebron fares to Jordan's skill as opposed to how their overall contribution were. How Jordan won a title isn't the model every player should use.

When you compare Shaq to Russell, do you focus on how well Shaq was relative to Russell's defense?

Nothing in basketball is more important than individual, efficient scoring. And this is a Jordan vs LeBron thread.

It's inevitable to come down to this.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:39 AM
Will you please stop going to this caveman argument.

Look at the other post for context. Jordan isn't chest passing the ball to Steve Kerr when a team is on an 8-0 run. Never once did say he could do any of the things you're saying.

LeBron James is capable of scoring almost at will, but at times he simply doesn't. He gets passive. He did it last year, he did it 2014, he did it in 2011, 2010. He's done it. He did it last playoff game.

You don't' need to go all insane about Jordan, slow down and read first.

I'm just not gonna quote you again. You seem to have these fallacies in your mind that Jordan would do this in scenario A when history has shown that he wasn't always capable of doing it. I'll leave you to it. I have a hard time believing you watched that series. I literally never heard anyone say LeBron didn't play well against the Spurs. It was his team that didn't. End of story. I guess Kobe wouldn't have passed the ball either so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by saying Jordan wouldn't be passing it.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:39 AM
Nothing in basketball is more important than individual, efficient scoring. And this is a Jordan vs LeBron thread.

It's inevitable to come down to this.

Some say Magic's ability to distribute the ball and finding the best and highest percentage look was better in beating the Celtics than him trying to match Bird 1 on 1 scoring wise.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:39 AM
Nothing in basketball is more important than individual, efficient scoring. And this is a Jordan vs LeBron thread.

It's inevitable to come down to this.

This doesn't win you championships. Go ask Wilt. You need defense and a team that can actually play. Heat couldn't. One man doesn't stop Spurs from shooting 47% from three. Duncan was still the best rim protector and elite defender. With Kawhi there, there wasn't much LeBron can do other than you thinking he should have dropped 50 or something.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:44 AM
This doesn't win you championships. Go ask Wilt.

Neither did Jordan in the 80s. You could be the best scorer in the world but you still need a team around you. 1 can't beat a team. Doesn't change the fact that individual scoring is the most important thing there is. Ask any stat monkey.

If you're confused about that, I understand why you're questioning LeBron vs Jordan. You need to read up.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:46 AM
This doesn't win you championships. Go ask Wilt. You need defense and a team that can actually play. Heat couldn't. One man doesn't stop Spurs from shooting 47% from three. Duncan was still the best rim protector and elite defender. With Kawhi there, there wasn't much LeBron can do other than you thinking he should have dropped 50 or something.

Well chest passing to Mario Chalmers and standing at the 3 point line wasn't want I wanted him to try. He was literally standing there as the Spurs are lighting up the score board.

I was even more pissed against the Warriors last year. Like what the hell are you doing LeBron? Thank God he flipped that around.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:49 AM
Well chest passing to Mario Chalmers and standing at the 3 point line wasn't want I wanted him to try. He was literally standing there as the Spurs are lighting up the score board.

I was even more pissed against the Warriors last year. Like what the hell are you doing LeBron? Thank God he flipped that around.

Yes, he likes to pass because he realized at a young age that you need teammates to play well to win. I'm not sure why you have this agenda that he HAS to shoot every shot to seem like he was trying to win. I don't remember Magic doing any of what you said or getting blamed for it. Just because LeBron has the ability to score AND pass at an elite level, doesn't mean it's the right play.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:52 AM
Yes, he likes to pass because he realized at a young age that you need teammates to play well to win. I'm not sure why you have this agenda that he HAS to shoot every shot to seem like he was trying to win. I don't remember Magic doing any of what you said or getting blamed for it. Just because LeBron has the ability to score AND pass at an elite level, doesn't mean it's the right play.

lol Magic was on TV during that finals yelling at Lebron to stop passing the ball and score.

Magic Johnson was telling Bron to stop passing. That's how you know he was playing too passive those first GS games.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:52 AM
Neither did Jordan in the 80s. You could be the best scorer in the world but you still need a team around you. 1 can't beat a team. Doesn't change the fact that individual scoring is the most important thing there is. Ask any stat monkey.

If you're confused about that, I understand why you're questioning LeBron vs Jordan. You need to read up.

Durant is probably the best individual scorer in the NBA and has been for the past five or so years. What's he doing? Maybe you didn't realize this but go ask Pop what he thinks about individual scoring. Individual scoring helps... when the game is CLOSE. When it isn't, the best option is to always get your team offense running. Ask any stat monkey? WTF does that mean? Spurs beat Miami not because of individual scoring but because team offense. That's how the game is played. It wasn't until Jordan came along that everyone fell in love with individual scoring. That's never how you win a game. Like you said, Jordan never won either. He was the best individual scorer of his generation. 1-10 without the Pipster. But hey, "very important."

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 01:53 AM
Neither did Jordan in the 80s. You could be the best scorer in the world but you still need a team around you. 1 can't beat a team. Doesn't change the fact that individual scoring is the most important thing there is. Ask any stat monkey.

If you're confused about that, I understand why you're questioning LeBron vs Jordan. You need to read up.

Those stat monkey's would probably tell you it's probably a good idea to look at their overall contributions beforehand.

Also don't see how it being the most important (if that's even true) is suddenly the bench mark that you need to surpass before looking at other parts of the game.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 01:55 AM
Those stat monkey's would probably tell you it's probably a good idea to look at their overall contributions beforehand.

Also don't see how it being the most important (if that's even true) is suddenly the bench mark that you need to surpass before looking at other parts of the game.

It's not but when you're comparing these two all time greats, you have one that can get points more reliably than the other. And Bron has shown hesitation in doing that many times in the past. That's a serious advantage towards Jordan.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 01:58 AM
lol Magic was on TV during that finals yelling at Lebron to stop passing the ball and score.

Magic Johnson was telling Bron to stop passing. That's how you know he was playing too passive those first GS games.

How many times do I have to tell you that Bron's game isn't predicated in individual scoring? He can do it but his greatest strength is to get shooters open. If you knew anything about the series, you would know Pop zoned LeBron out every time he got to the rim. LeBron can't shoot - which is why Pop kept daring him to do it. So LeBron pops the ball to his teammates so they can create separation from the basket and draw defenders away. It semi-worked but Spurs were just destroyed the Heat on the offensive end. Coupled with Wade who can't shoot and just rendered useless. Chris Bosh kept getting outrebounded and Duncan pummeled him on the inside. It's easy to say he should stop passing but Spurs just outplayed them. Easy as that. IDK what you're talking about in the earlier games against the Warriors. He tried to get Love more involved and it didn't work. Then they benched Love for RJ. That was more by design than anything.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 02:00 AM
It's not but when you're comparing these two all time greats, you have one that can get points more reliably than the other. And Bron has shown hesitation in doing that many times in the past. That's a serious advantage towards Jordan.

And which LeBron has the advantage in making the right pass... so you can't have it both ways. His game was always predicated in passing. You can't take that out of him and expect him to be the same player. Jordan's strength was always ISO. LeBron isn't. He can't shoot. I always said that. So that's why his passing has been extremely useful throughout his career.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 02:02 AM
Durant is probably the best individual scorer in the NBA and has been for the past five or so years. What's he doing? Maybe you didn't realize this but go ask Pop what he thinks about individual scoring. Individual scoring helps... when the game is CLOSE. When it isn't, the best option is to always get your team offense running. Ask any stat monkey? WTF does that mean? Spurs beat Miami not because of individual scoring but because team offense. That's how the game is played. It wasn't until Jordan came along that everyone fell in love with individual scoring. That's never how you win a game. Like you said, Jordan never won either. He was the best individual scorer of his generation. 1-10 without the Pipster. But hey, "very important."

lol Durant is your argument? Well he was the second best player in the league. So again that goes to my argument of how important scoring is.

I really don't want to break down OKC's playoff history but, that is a very poor example. But I will say indivual scoring sure as hell beat Spurs team that looked completely unbeatable in 2012. Harden choked and Miami was loaded.

Lots of injury issues, Durant choked a few times. Like I said, you still need more than just one thing. Its still the most important. Why else would he have been the second best player?

LOb0
05-23-2017, 02:07 AM
How many times do I have to tell you that Bron's game isn't predicated in individual scoring? He can do it but his greatest strength is to get shooters open. If you knew anything about the series, you would know Pop zoned LeBron out every time he got to the rim. LeBron can't shoot - which is why Pop kept daring him to do it. So LeBron pops the ball to his teammates so they can create separation from the basket and draw defenders away. It semi-worked but Spurs were just destroyed the Heat on the offensive end. Coupled with Wade who can't shoot and just rendered useless. Chris Bosh kept getting outrebounded and Duncan pummeled him on the inside. It's easy to say he should stop passing but Spurs just outplayed them. Easy as that. IDK what you're talking about in the earlier games against the Warriors. He tried to get Love more involved and it didn't work. Then they benched Love for RJ. That was more by design than anything.

So you're saying that isn't LeBron's game. He doesn't want to be that scorer all the time. If that's the case close the thread. Jordan is better.

Ill take the guy that's the best at getting points himself than the guy that needs to pass it, or else might go passive.

That guy that murdered Golden State in game 5 and 6. Or that guy that killed Boston in game 6 on the road with his scoring. That's the guy that's Jordan or beyond. Too bad he's not always around.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 02:17 AM
So you're saying that isn't LeBron's game. He doesn't want to be that scorer all the time. If that's the case close the thread. Jordan is better.

Ill take the guy that's the best at getting points himself than the guy that needs to pass it, or else might go passive.

That guy that murdered Golden State in game 5 and 6. Or that guy that killed Boston in game 6 on the road with his scoring. That's the guy that's Jordan or beyond. Too bad he's not always around.

So Kobe is better, too? Got it. Don't flip flop. Kobe wanted the ball more than Jordan did. So what's your logic then? I never said LeBron doesn't want to be the scorer all the time. I said his game is PREDICATED on him scoring AND facilitating. He makes you choose and that breaks your defense. So again, I ask you, is Kobe better than LeBron?

LOb0
05-23-2017, 02:18 AM
So Kobe is better, too? Got it. Don't flip flop. Kobe wanted the ball more than Jordan did. So what's your logic then?

lol Kobe? Since when was on an efficiency level of these two guys lmao.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 02:19 AM
lol Kobe? Since when was on an efficiency level of these two guys lmao.

"So you're saying that isn't LeBron's game. He doesn't want to be that scorer all the time. If that's the case close the thread. Jordan is better."

Is this not what you implied? I don't get it.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 02:22 AM
"So you're saying that isn't LeBron's game. He doesn't want to be that scorer all the time. If that's the case close the thread. Jordan is better."

Is this not what you implied? I don't get it.

Ill take the best individual scorer their is over a guy that;s looking to pass. If those passes aren't working and he goes passive. Problem. Jordan will just score the damn ball.

Kobe isn't in this conversation, nor is he a better scorer than LeBron. Kobe could shoot you out of a game just as much as in.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 02:24 AM
Ill take the best individual scorer their is over a guy that;s looking to pass.

Kobe isn't in this conversation, nor is he a better scorer than LeBron. Kobe could shoot you out of a game just as much as in.

That's not what you said. Which is why I draw the line and used Kobe as an example. One guy's game is predicated on scoring while the other is based on scoring+passing. In this situation, Kobe wants the ball to score moreso than Jordan+LeBron ever did. So by your logic, Kobe > LeBron as you yourself stated that by default, Jordan is better than LeBron because he "wanted" to score all the time. So this seems to be a lapse in your evaluation of a player. In a perfect world, none of what you said is true. And Kobe is a prime example. Can you just admit that you made a mistake? Stop beating around the bush.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 02:31 AM
That's not what you said. Which is why I draw the line and used Kobe as an example. One guy's game is predicated on scoring while the other is based on scoring+passing. In this situation, Kobe wants the ball to score moreso than Jordan+LeBron ever did. So by your logic, Kobe > LeBron as you yourself stated that by default, Jordan is better than LeBron because he "wanted" to score all the time. So this seems to be a lapse in your evaluation of a player. In a perfect world, none of what you said is true. And Kobe is a prime example. Can you just admit that you made a mistake? Stop beating around the bush.

You're missing it.

I want Jordan because he's the best scorer ever. Why would want Kobe over LeBron when he's an inferior scorer?


Scoring >> Passing. Passive Bron shows up, passes ain't working, Hesitant to score. Not an issue with Jordan.

lol please stop bringing up Kobe, he's about at least 8 spots lower than these guys.

FlashBolt
05-23-2017, 02:38 AM
You're missing it.

I want Jordan because he's the best scorer ever. Why would want Kobe over LeBron when he's an inferior scorer?


Scoring >> Passing. Passive Bron shows up, passes ain't working, Hesitant to score. Not an issue with Jordan.

lol please stop bringing up Kobe, he's about at least 8 spots lower than these guys.

Your argument just became that "Kobe isn't the better scorer." It was initially "LeBron doesn't want to score and is passive." Well, Kobe wants to score and he isn't passive. So go change your argument or edit your posts. I'm not responsible for what YOU say and then try to switch it up when you're stuck in a loop. KD is a better scorer than LeBron, FYI.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 08:16 AM
It's not but when you're comparing these two all time greats, you have one that can get points more reliably than the other. And Bron has shown hesitation in doing that many times in the past. That's a serious advantage towards Jordan.


You want to reward Jordan in being a good scorer sure no problem.

but you still fail to understand that youre criticizing others for how they lack in that department against Jordan instead of lloking at whether or not their overall contribution makes up for it.

Theres probably a good reason you havent quantified Jordans "big" advantage over Lebron.

Itd be much more effective to see how someone can match Jordans contributions without his lack of scoring then compare whether or not Lebron makes up in the otger departments. Not everyone plays like jordan and youd be an idiot to think all players down the road chasing Jordan need to beat Jordan in scoring to surpass him. Hell the argumebt about Wilt and russell was always offense vs defense. But when it comes to Jordan, you happen to think it MUST be scoring.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2017, 10:39 AM
I mean, Jordan is my GOAT. But I have stopped trying to compare the 2. LeBron is for sure the best I have seen since Jordan. He will finish top 2-3 for me. Whether he pushes Jordan, I don't know. Many things need to go his way.

For now, give me Jordan's career. As a stand alone player, I still want Jordan I guess, even though I am not going to waste time fighting the subject, because it's like picking between the 2 hottest chicks alive. Whichever one works for me.

valade16
05-23-2017, 11:14 AM
I mean, Jordan is my GOAT. But I have stopped trying to compare the 2. LeBron is for sure the best I have seen since Jordan. He will finish top 2-3 for me. Whether he pushes Jordan, I don't know. Many things need to go his way.

For now, give me Jordan's career. As a stand alone player, I still want Jordan I guess, even though I am not going to waste time fighting the subject, because it's like picking between the 2 hottest chicks alive. Whichever one works for me.

For me, when LeBron is playing at the top of his game he's as good as MJ. His impact is as much as MJ's. But I'll always have to worry if he's going to pull a Celtics series, or the Mavs series, or disinterest. I will never have to worry about MJ bringing it. ever. He may have a bad game, or a bad series (though I don't know if he truly ever has), but I'll never have to worry about him being disinterested or not seemingly wanting to win.

And yes, Bron doesn't do it very often. But even doing it once out of ever 10 or 20 series is still a series MJ wouldn't be doing that. So if both are equal (or near equal), give me the guy who plays hard 20/20 times over the guy who plays hard 19/20 times.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2017, 11:36 AM
For me, when LeBron is playing at the top of his game he's as good as MJ. His impact is as much as MJ's. But I'll always have to worry if he's going to pull a Celtics series, or the Mavs series, or disinterest. I will never have to worry about MJ bringing it. ever. He may have a bad game, or a bad series (though I don't know if he truly ever has), but I'll never have to worry about him being disinterested or not seemingly wanting to win.

And yes, Bron doesn't do it very often. But even doing it once out of ever 10 or 20 series is still a series MJ wouldn't be doing that. So if both are equal (or near equal), give me the guy who plays hard 20/20 times over the guy who plays hard 19/20 times.

and that is totally fair. There are benefits to having each. At the end of the day, it's who you would choose to go into game 7 with. And I would choose Jordan too.

this comment may apply to this thread too, who knows.

Pat Riley: "If I had to pick any player to take a shot to win a game, give me Michael Jordan. If I had to pick any player to take a shot to save my life, give me Larry Bird".

So, I guess it just depends on exactly how you define "better". We all know these 2 guys are the cream of the crop, and will most likely stand alone at the top when LeBron's career is over. So then we make the choice on what is important to us.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:56 AM
Your argument just became that "Kobe isn't the better scorer." It was initially "LeBron doesn't want to score and is passive." Well, Kobe wants to score and he isn't passive. So go change your argument or edit your posts. I'm not responsible for what YOU say and then try to switch it up when you're stuck in a loop. KD is a better scorer than LeBron, FYI.

Wanting to score and scoring isn't the same. Kobe isn't efficient enough to be in this conversation. Even when passive, Bron is generally more efficent than Kobe.



LeBron is a very efficent scorer but his agression is questonable at times. Jordan however doesn't have the problem of Kobe or LeBron and is always agressive and efficent.

Do you get it yet?

LOb0
05-23-2017, 11:59 AM
You want to reward Jordan in being a good scorer sure no problem.

but you still fail to understand that youre criticizing others for how they lack in that department against Jordan instead of lloking at whether or not their overall contribution makes up for it.

Theres probably a good reason you havent quantified Jordans "big" advantage over Lebron.

Itd be much more effective to see how someone can match Jordans contributions without his lack of scoring then compare whether or not Lebron makes up in the otger departments. Not everyone plays like jordan and youd be an idiot to think all players down the road chasing Jordan need to beat Jordan in scoring to surpass him. Hell the argumebt about Wilt and russell was always offense vs defense. But when it comes to Jordan, you happen to think it MUST be scoring.

Jordan's overall game combined with his edge is scoring, which is most important, gives him the advantage.

Unless you think individual scoring efficient isn't the most valuable thing. When it clearly is.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2017, 12:08 PM
Jordan's overall game combined with his edge is scoring, which is most important, gives him the advantage.

Unless you think individual scoring efficient isn't the most valuable thing. When it clearly is.

impact to winning is the most important thing. Individual offense, and scoring, equate higher than most, but it can be negated by other factors.

It's case by case really

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 12:12 PM
Jordan's overall game combined with his edge is scoring, which is most important, gives him the advantage.

Unless you think individual scoring efficient isn't the most valuable thing. When it clearly is.

I am sure when you factor ib Jordans overall impact, it cant be match, but you havent quantified it and yet youre also making short sighted foolish comments like post 172 limitibg the topic to scoring when you just said now you realize overall cobtrivution comes into play.

This might be the first post (or the short number) in like 10 pages where you fibalky decided to refer to overall controbution and not just "scoring". And youll probably still never quantify anything.

LOb0
05-23-2017, 12:17 PM
I am sure when you factor ib Jordans overall impact, it cant be match, but you havent quantified it and yet youre also making short sighted foolish comments like post 172 limitibg the topic to scoring when you just said now you realize overall cobtrivution comes into play.

This might be the first post (or the short number) in like 10 pages where you fibalky decided to refer to overall controbution and not just "scoring". And youll probably still never quantify anything.

The only reason I haven't brought it up is because it's obvious. We're looking at the thing that gives one of these two greats an advantage over the other. That is scoring.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-23-2017, 12:34 PM
The only reason I haven't brought it up is because it's obvious. We're looking at the thing that gives one of these two greats an advantage over the other. That is scoring.

Youre looking at 1 advantage. The point would be to compare how Lebrons advantages over Jordan can make up for Jordans advantages and vice versa.

You failed to do that. No player can match Jordanss scoring in the past/present/future. That doesnt mean no player has a chance to be in the conversation with Jordan. You keep using that as an end all.

JordansBulls
05-24-2017, 09:02 PM
Jordan was undefeated in series with HCA. Lebron lost 3 years in a row with it and was down 3-2 for 5 years in a row with HCA as well.
In fact thus far, Lebron has been in an elimination game each year of his career where a team had won at least 3 games against him in a series even when Lebron had HCA. For someone to be that dominant and that much better than his peers how is he down 3-2 in nearly every year of his career even when he has HCA?

LOb0
05-25-2017, 12:33 AM
Youre looking at 1 advantage. The point would be to compare how Lebrons advantages over Jordan can make up for Jordans advantages and vice versa.

You failed to do that. No player can match Jordanss scoring in the past/present/future. That doesnt mean no player has a chance to be in the conversation with Jordan. You keep using that as an end all.


They're close enough statistically where we need to make took at what separates them. Jordan's reliability scoring wise trumps Bron's passing advantage quite easily.

Jordan was a better defender, averaged more steals, Bron gets more rebounds. Scoring separates them. Nothing Bron does gives him an advantage over Jordan.

effen5
05-25-2017, 10:55 AM
I just binged on a could of late 80s/early 90s Jordan games....I mean, i remembered that he was a great defender, but watching these games over again, I forgot how dominant of a defender he really was.

R. Johnson#3
05-25-2017, 03:38 PM
This is why I don't like evaluating players that I've never seen play. Anyone who picks Lebron clearly never saw Jordan play. Now don't get me wrong, Lebron is dominant as hell. Nobody else in the league that's his size can move like he does and he'll probably go down as top 3 ever.

Michael Jordan on the other hand is the greatest competitor I've ever seen in my life and I only started watching him after his first retirement. The man was possessed for 48 minutes a night and just never stopped on either end of the floor. On offense he'd beat you with sheer talent and on defense he was the ****ing energizer bunny. I've never seen anyone work harder and with as much talent as MJ and I probably never will.

FlashBolt
05-25-2017, 03:51 PM
This is why I don't like evaluating players that I've never seen play. Anyone who picks Lebron clearly never saw Jordan play. Now don't get me wrong, Lebron is dominant as hell. Nobody else in the league that's his size can move like he does and he'll probably go down as top 3 ever.

Michael Jordan on the other hand is the greatest competitor I've ever seen in my life and I only started watching him after his first retirement. The man was possessed for 48 minutes a night and just never stopped on either end of the floor. On offense he'd beat you with sheer talent and on defense he was the ****ing energizer bunny. I've never seen anyone work harder and with as much talent as MJ and I probably never will.

If you've watched MJ at his prime = you're at your 35+ = you're nostalgic. It works both ways. And RWB is who you basically described. Kobe actually had a better work ethic than Jordan did.

LoveCaliFan
05-25-2017, 06:39 PM
Really a question? Jordan of course. 6-0 finals, all those 1st team defenses, all those scoring titles, 30ppg career, 4th scoring list with only 15 years and if needed could get you a triple double. MVP's & got snubbed couple times...Lebut needs 2 robins, Jordan needed 1. Kobe needed 1(had 2 throw that out there..lol)

Jordan hands down..