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View Full Version : Zaza closeout on Kawhi: Dirty or Not?



Rentzias
05-16-2017, 10:20 AM
Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of either team. Just interested in how this play is viewed. Seems pretty polarizing, even outside of the two relevant fanbases.

Hawkeye15
05-16-2017, 10:22 AM
I personally didn't see intent, he was making a rapid closeout and stepped under. Just unfortunate as it gets

warfelg
05-16-2017, 10:23 AM
I equate it to Vontaze Burfict of the Bengals in the NFL. It's a guy with a history who loses the benefit of doubt in most players eyes.

After seeing the play better I do agree with Pops assessment of the closeout was late and unnecessary. But I don't think it was with intent for the ankle but intent to let him know Zara was really to be a force.

WaDe03
05-16-2017, 10:27 AM
At first I didn't think so, after rewatching I definitely think so. He made sure he got under his feet so he had no where to land. Ran down the floor and argued to officials to try and cover it up.

KobeOwnSU
05-16-2017, 10:39 AM
I think he knew what he was doing, it was just a matter of whether Kawhi was gonna fall on it or not though.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

IndyRealist
05-16-2017, 10:47 AM
Yes, dirty. He turned to watch the ball go up, he had time to react. He was not in mid air, and clearly takes steps toward Kawhi after he knows the ball has been released.

Every remotely similar clip they showed from other players, the defender was in the air trying to block the shot. Zaza had no chance to block it and very clearly knew the ball was in the air, and he was on the ground with time to react. He might not have intended to go after the ankle, but he certainly meant to flatten Leonard.

Scoots
05-16-2017, 10:49 AM
Bad, stupid, and a foul. Don't think it was with intent.

Also bad and stupid when LA and Manu did similar things later in the game.

Kyben36
05-16-2017, 10:55 AM
Yes, i dont know how many guys close out feet first under a guy, especially a big flying out.

Scoots
05-16-2017, 11:01 AM
Yes, i dont know how many guys close out feet first under a guy, especially a big flying out.

Apparently LaMarcus Aldridge does.

nastynice
05-16-2017, 11:06 AM
lol

Not as dirty as "still on Warriors payroll David Lee's" cheap shot on Kawhai

Warrior for life!

nastynice
05-16-2017, 11:07 AM
Apparently LaMarcus Aldridge does.

Bro, everyone does. It's just a matter of someone with enough time and not enough activities in their life to splice together some clips

nastynice
05-16-2017, 11:09 AM
Yes, i dont know how many guys close out feet first under a guy, especially a big flying out.

Haha, bro, that's how you're supposed to close out a jump shooter without leaving your feet. It's called shuffling your feet. And it's the textbook way to close out a jump shooter if your not gonna leave your feet

kdspurman
05-16-2017, 11:14 AM
864199702392209408

I haven't seen this said about what LMA did or any other video people are trying to compare it to. They're different plays. What Zaza did was wrong. I won't use the word dirty,. I know that bothers folks. So plain and simple, what he did was wrong.

You can keep examining every Spurs close out, no one did what Zaza did. Especially on a guy fading away.

KnicksorBust
05-16-2017, 11:26 AM
Haha, bro, that's how you're supposed to close out a jump shooter without leaving your feet. It's called shuffling your feet. And it's the textbook way to close out a jump shooter if your not gonna leave your feet

shuffling? We call it chopping your feet.

Either way it is only dirty to me if he meant to injure him and I don't buy it. I think he came as obnoxiously close to Kawhi as he could and if they want to suspend him because he didn't give Kawhi room to come down... I'm fine with all that. The rule is in place for a reason. Punish violators. Get it out of the game. I don't like it and I hate seeing players get injured. I just don't believe he was trying to hurt him on that play. I think he wanted to close out as tightly as he could and unfortunately Kawhi landed on his foot.

KnicksorBust
05-16-2017, 11:27 AM
864199702392209408

I haven't seen this said about what LMA did or any other video people are trying to compare it to. They're different plays. What Zaza did was wrong. I won't use the word dirty,. I know that bothers folks. So plain and simple, what he did was wrong.

You can keep examining every Spurs close out, no one did what Zaza did. Especially on a guy fading away.

That's the part about it that is tempting to call it dirty. If I told you that Zaza (who does has a rep) Pachulia stuck his foot out and even though Kawhi Leonard was fading away on a deep jump shot... STILL landed on Zaza's foot. Just the facts of the case screams dirty play. Watching the video I just don't see it though. That extra step doesn't prove intent to me.

cmellofan15
05-16-2017, 11:28 AM
Dirty player making a dirty play nbd

WaDe03
05-16-2017, 11:29 AM
It doesn't matter if ZaZa were to get suspended anyways. The only effect he has on the game is injuring guys.

lol, please
05-16-2017, 11:53 AM
lol

Not as dirty as "still on Warriors payroll David Lee's" cheap shot on Kawhai

Warrior for life!

savage


It doesn't matter if ZaZa were to get suspended anyways. The only effect he has on the game is injuring guys.

+11 says hi

IndyRealist
05-16-2017, 11:54 AM
You really don't have to prove intent. What he did was illegal, and he had the ability to avoid it and chose not to. He was on his feet, not in the air, and he reacted to the shot by turning to look. He could have stopped.

LOb0
05-16-2017, 11:55 AM
No. Zaza is a clumsy idiot. That's how he hurt Durant, and that's how he hurt Kawhi.

kdspurman
05-16-2017, 12:02 PM
You really don't have to prove intent. What he did was illegal, and he had the ability to avoid it and chose not to. He was on his feet, not in the air, and he reacted to the shot by turning to look. He could have stopped.

Exactly

WaDe03
05-16-2017, 12:06 PM
savage



+11 says hi

I'd have a +11 if I played next to KD Curry Klay and Green lol.

Kyben36
05-16-2017, 12:16 PM
Haha, bro, that's how you're supposed to close out a jump shooter without leaving your feet. It's called shuffling your feet. And it's the textbook way to close out a jump shooter if your not gonna leave your feet

tell me how you "shuffle your feet" in front of you as you go out. ????

mngopher35
05-16-2017, 12:36 PM
Ya I think he knew what he was doing crowding him, just took it too far (not sure if Intebtional or not but his history doesn't help). It's an illegal play and my guess is they will call it very close now or everyone will be doing it non stop the rest of the way.

tredigs
05-16-2017, 12:37 PM
864199702392209408

I haven't seen this said about what LMA did or any other video people are trying to compare it to. They're different plays. What Zaza did was wrong. I won't use the word dirty,. I know that bothers folks. So plain and simple, what he did was wrong.

You can keep examining every Spurs close out, no one did what Zaza did. Especially on a guy fading away.

Because they did not catch it and because it did not end up further tweaking a twisted ankle, so it goes away (ditto every time this happens to Curry that nobody cares about or talks about). But rest assure, Manu did this twice on the SAME PLAY within two minutes of the Zaza closeout. Pretty tough to see it as anything but the same as what Zaza did, at the very least. He just happened to be too slow and missed Draymond's landing. https://streamable.com/7gvli

Scoots
05-16-2017, 01:24 PM
864199702392209408

I haven't seen this said about what LMA did or any other video people are trying to compare it to. They're different plays. What Zaza did was wrong. I won't use the word dirty,. I know that bothers folks. So plain and simple, what he did was wrong.

You can keep examining every Spurs close out, no one did what Zaza did. Especially on a guy fading away.

Had Curry or Green been injured you can believe that would be the talk though. That said, what Zaza did was dangerous no denying.

Scoots
05-16-2017, 01:27 PM
You really don't have to prove intent. What he did was illegal, and he had the ability to avoid it and chose not to. He was on his feet, not in the air, and he reacted to the shot by turning to look. He could have stopped.

And he got a foul called on him for it.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2017, 01:37 PM
If you don't think it was dirty...

Saddletramp
05-16-2017, 01:47 PM
Bad, stupid, and a foul. Don't think it was with intent.

Also bad and stupid when LA and Manu did similar things later in the game.

That LMA one is different. kdspurman and Flash already went over it. Curry was coming forward and LMA barely went forward. On the other hand, Kawhi came straight down and ZaZa just kept coming straight over. The Manu stuff, on the other hand........


Haha, bro, that's how you're supposed to close out a jump shooter without leaving your feet. It's called shuffling your feet. And it's the textbook way to close out a jump shooter if your not gonna leave your feet

But he did leave his feet. He just kept shuffling over after he landed.

Saddletramp
05-16-2017, 01:50 PM
No. Zaza is a clumsy idiot. That's how he hurt Durant, and that's how he hurt Kawhi.

No, he didn't know where Durant was when he flopped. He knew exactly where Leonard was.

JasonJohnHorn
05-16-2017, 01:52 PM
Lookd dirty to me. He was very casual about it, but there was an extra side step at the end, once the shot was released. It didn't look like he was catching balance, or boxing out. And typically, the big guy would step in then, either to go for a board or get ready to go back on offense.


I've seen defensive guards like Shump and Bowen, and Tony Allen turn on the shooter once the ball is released, and put their arms out as if boxing out. With Bowen, that sometimes led to a collision because he'd back up (to box out? or create a bad landing?).

On this play, it doesn't look like he's boxing out. It looks like he just stepped under him after while nonchalantly turning around.

Only he knows. But as a fan, it is frustrating.


There will be an asterisk on this series and on this title. And that will mean both of GSW's titles will have an asterisk. I don't mean to take anything away from them, because they are an amazing team and likely would win either way, but that is frustrating to see as a fan.

LOb0
05-16-2017, 02:14 PM
No, he didn't know where Durant was when he flopped. He knew exactly where Leonard was.

Idk. Any one that's played ball knows there are people that are prone to doing stupid clumsy things. I think Zaza is one of those guys.

colinskik
05-16-2017, 02:15 PM
Because they did not catch it and because it did not end up further tweaking a twisted ankle, so it goes away (ditto every time this happens to Curry that nobody cares about or talks about). But rest assure, Manu did this twice on the SAME PLAY within two minutes of the Zaza closeout. Pretty tough to see it as anything but the same as what Zaza did, at the very least. He just happened to be too slow and missed Draymond's landing. https://streamable.com/7gvli

Explain to me why you think they are the same.

First of all, I'm not sure if this rule applies to layups under the basket or other types of shots in the paint where 3+ guys are all fighting for the rebound -- not 100% on that though. It isn't a clear cut offense/defense situation like the closing out on a shooter situation.

Secondly, if you argue that the LMA play falls in the same category, that makes Zaza's play even more egregious. LMA seems to encroach on Curry's space just slightly (it's a little hard to see on clips i've watched), while Zaza is full on sliding his feet under Kahwi with that extra step. Zaza's version is a much more flagrant example.

I think a better comparison was Ibaka rolling his ankle on Giannis' foot. That was as clear as day but the refs swallowed their whistles.

Bottom line for me is that Zaza wasn't intentionally aiming for that ankle in the hopes of injuring Kahwi. I mean, it's pretty difficult to get the desired outcome on a play that happens in a matter of seconds. Knowing Zaza's clumsy ***, if he were trying to injure Kahwi's ankle he probably would've ****ed it all up. However, he certainly overplayed the shot in the hopes of interfering in anyway possible, which i think borders on a dirty play.

Scoots
05-16-2017, 02:16 PM
That LMA one is different. kdspurman and Flash already went over it. Curry was coming forward and LMA barely went forward. On the other hand, Kawhi came straight down and ZaZa just kept coming straight over.

The thing to me about the LA thing is that his close out was a shuffle side step with another little hop which is what Pop said was "unnatural" about Zaza's closeout, completely independent of what the offensive person did.

That said, Curry pretty much always falls on landing to save his ankles because it happens to him so often.

tredigs
05-16-2017, 02:20 PM
Explain to me why you think they are the same.

First of all, I'm not sure if this rule applies to layups under the basket or other types of shots in the paint where 3+ guys are all fighting for the rebound -- not 100% on that though. It isn't a clear cut offense/defense situation like the closing out on a shooter situation.

Secondly, if you argue that the LMA play falls in the same category, that makes Zaza's play even more egregious. LMA seems to encroach on Curry's space just slightly (it's a little hard to see on clips i've watched), while Zaza is full on sliding his feet under Kahwi with that extra step. Zaza's version is a much more flagrant example.

I think a better comparison was Ibaka rolling his ankle on Giannis' foot. That was as clear as day but the refs swallowed their whistles.

Bottom line for me is that Zaza wasn't intentionally aiming for that ankle in the hopes of injuring Kahwi. I mean, it's pretty difficult to get the desired outcome on a play that happens in a matter of seconds. Knowing Zaza's clumsy ***, if he were trying to injure Kahwi's ankle he probably would've ****ed it all up. However, he certainly overplayed the shot in the hopes of interfering in anyway possible, which i think borders on a dirty play.
I was talking more specifically about the Manu play that I linked. It does seem pretty clear that he is trying to get Draymond to land on his foot, as evidenced by him doing it multiple times on the same play. LMA's and Zaza's seem less clear as to intent, though I'm definitely not firm on thinking either were not purposeful. This is a play that is all too common in today's NBA though. More of an emphasis should be placed on removing it (possible flagrants and/or fines).

bigmac8675
05-16-2017, 02:40 PM
It's just Zaza being Zaza!

But for real... it was an unnecessary closeout, but I don't think there was intent to hurt the guy. Besides, this play happens in every NBA game at least 4-5 times. And I'm pretty damn sure it happens to Steph Curry every game at least once.

colinskik
05-16-2017, 03:06 PM
I was talking more specifically about the Manu play that I linked. It does seem pretty clear that he is trying to get Draymond to land on his foot, as evidenced by him doing it multiple times on the same play. LMA's and Zaza's seem less clear as to intent, though I'm definitely not firm on thinking either were not purposeful. This is a play that is all too common in today's NBA though. More of an emphasis should be placed on removing it (possible flagrants and/or fines).

My thinking on plays under the basket like that is basically there's not much that can be done. It's almost inevitable that players will turn ankles, but it's way harder to place blame than in the closeout situations. Even in the Manu example, he's still focused on the ball, not on Green's ankles. Yes, he's a sneaky bastard and could very easily have been trying to cause injury, but there's really no way of knowing for sure, and he has as much a right to that space as does Green.

tredigs
05-16-2017, 03:14 PM
My thinking on plays under the basket like that is basically there's not much that can be done. It's almost inevitable that players will turn ankles, but it's way harder to place blame than in the closeout situations. Even in the Manu example, he's still focused on the ball, not on Green's ankles. Yes, he's a sneaky bastard and could very easily have been trying to cause injury, but there's really no way of knowing for sure, and he has as much a right to that space as does Green.

Actually no, if a player is jumping up for a rebound (specifically straight up), it is very much illegal to stick your foot under his landing zone. Whether or not he's shooting is irrelevant. Manu's actions made no sense, he's just lunging a single foot forward multiple times under Draymond's feet after he jumps.

lol, please
05-16-2017, 03:21 PM
Lookd dirty to me. He was very casual about it, but there was an extra side step at the end, once the shot was released. It didn't look like he was catching balance, or boxing out. And typically, the big guy would step in then, either to go for a board or get ready to go back on offense.


I've seen defensive guards like Shump and Bowen, and Tony Allen turn on the shooter once the ball is released, and put their arms out as if boxing out. With Bowen, that sometimes led to a collision because he'd back up (to box out? or create a bad landing?).

On this play, it doesn't look like he's boxing out. It looks like he just stepped under him after while nonchalantly turning around.

Only he knows. But as a fan, it is frustrating.


There will be an asterisk on this series and on this title. And that will mean both of GSW's titles will have an asterisk. I don't mean to take anything away from them, because they are an amazing team and likely would win either way, but that is frustrating to see as a fan.

wait....what?


:laugh:

kdspurman
05-16-2017, 03:24 PM
Because they did not catch it and because it did not end up further tweaking a twisted ankle, so it goes away (ditto every time this happens to Curry that nobody cares about or talks about). But rest assure, Manu did this twice on the SAME PLAY within two minutes of the Zaza closeout. Pretty tough to see it as anything but the same as what Zaza did, at the very least. He just happened to be too slow and missed Draymond's landing. https://streamable.com/7gvli


Had Curry or Green been injured you can believe that would be the talk though. That said, what Zaza did was dangerous no denying.

Manu has never been known to be dirty. He doesn't have a track record of it, and this isn't the first time he's watched a teammate go down due to a questionable play. So honestly, it's very tough to imagine he would suddenly start now.

When I saw that, I thought that's a 39 year old guy timing where the ball will land and deciding if he should even try to jump vs. a younger more athletic guy.

Dude has been a flopper in his career, and people hate him for that, but you'd be hard pressed to find folks who consider him to be dirty or as a guy who would intentionally try to hurt an opponent. I can't change what you guys want to believe though.

People are certainly considering Zaza's reputation too. Had it been like McGee or something, it changes the conversation.

lol, please
05-16-2017, 03:33 PM
Manu has never been known to be dirty. He doesn't have a track record of it, and this isn't the first time he's watched a teammate go down due to a questionable play. So honestly, it's very tough to imagine he would suddenly start now.

When I saw that, I thought that's a 39 year old guy timing where the ball will land and deciding if he should even try to jump vs. a younger more athletic guy.

Dude has been a flopper in his career, and people hate him for that, but you'd be hard pressed to find folks who consider him to be dirty or as a guy who would intentionally try to hurt an opponent. I can't change what you guys want to believe though.

People are certainly considering Zaza's reputation too. Had it been like McGee or something, it changes the conversation.

What history though?

even if you can prove (you can't) that the 1-3 clips people have been passing around of him on other teams had malicious intent, that would still be, what...3ish isolated incidents in the span of years.

But who was a valid sample size?

If I did 5 lines on NYE (5 months ago) does this mean I am an addict? hint: there's only one right answer.

nastynice
05-16-2017, 03:35 PM
That LMA one is different. kdspurman and Flash already went over it. Curry was coming forward and LMA barely went forward. On the other hand, Kawhi came straight down and ZaZa just kept coming straight over. The Manu stuff, on the other hand........



But he did leave his feet. He just kept shuffling over after he landed.

That's not leaving your feet man, cmon

nastynice
05-16-2017, 03:38 PM
Lookd dirty to me. He was very casual about it, but there was an extra side step at the end, once the shot was released. It didn't look like he was catching balance, or boxing out. And typically, the big guy would step in then, either to go for a board or get ready to go back on offense.


I've seen defensive guards like Shump and Bowen, and Tony Allen turn on the shooter once the ball is released, and put their arms out as if boxing out. With Bowen, that sometimes led to a collision because he'd back up (to box out? or create a bad landing?).

On this play, it doesn't look like he's boxing out. It looks like he just stepped under him after while nonchalantly turning around.

Only he knows. But as a fan, it is frustrating.


There will be an asterisk on this series and on this title. And that will mean both of GSW's titles will have an asterisk. I don't mean to take anything away from them, because they are an amazing team and likely would win either way, but that is frustrating to see as a fan.

The entire nba is an asterisk. It's like 90's baseball all over again!

Saddletramp
05-16-2017, 04:09 PM
That's not leaving your feet man, cmon

What? He jumped to try to block the shot, and then when he landed he took a little extra step to get directly under Kawhi's feet. What do you mean he didn't leave his feet?

Chromehounds
05-16-2017, 05:17 PM
You really don't have to prove intent. What he did was illegal, and he had the ability to avoid it and chose not to. He was on his feet, not in the air, and he reacted to the shot by turning to look. He could have stopped.

What Zaza did was illegal, hence the 2-shot penalty. Zaza did not give the shooter landing space.
The talk locally and nationally is about "Intent", and only Zaza would know. Here's my take after watching the replays. It's a lumbering 7 footer closing out, and recklessly trying to crowd KL shot. The W's fans know Zaza couldn't jump over a phone book, his only chance at affecting the shot was to crowd the shooter. It's a dangerous move, I agree, no objections here. Also, you need to look at the player, Zaza is not the kinda of guys that can stop on a dime.
With that said, I wouldn't want to deal with such reckless behaviors, even without intent to harm. It's terrible what's happened, but I don't think it was dirty.

FlashBolt
05-16-2017, 05:24 PM
who cares anymore at this point...

Rentzias
05-16-2017, 05:31 PM
NOTHING EASY!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2709942-even-bruce-bowen-godfather-of-closeout-says-zaza-pachulia-went-too-far

Just more stuff about this.

Chromehounds
05-16-2017, 05:33 PM
who cares anymore at this point...

Which rock have you been living under?

FlashBolt
05-16-2017, 06:05 PM
Which rock have you been living under?

The one where it is game 2 and time to get over a play that won't change anything at this point. Yeah, I like this rock.

FlashBolt
05-16-2017, 06:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCvrB00wZT4

this was funny. the chris paul one is hilarious lmao

HandsOnTheWheel
05-16-2017, 06:16 PM
Yes.

IndyRealist
05-16-2017, 06:32 PM
And he got a foul called on him for it.

Oh I don't disagree with that at all. The question whether it was dirty. Yes, it was.

Marques24kobe
05-16-2017, 06:42 PM
Bruce Bowen made a living, doing the same exact thing. Spurs fans loved him. But it sucks when it happens to you.

tredigs
05-16-2017, 07:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCvrB00wZT4

this was funny. the chris paul one is hilarious lmao

I knew Pop backed up Bruce on these undercutting the shooter plays, but I was curious if there were any good quotes on it. Well there you go (3:45 mark).

Popovich: "The people crying about it are just frustrated about having to go against Bruce. I told Bruce, 'you be Bruce Bowen, you're the best ****ing defender in this league, you will NOT change the way you play defense". Good on Coach Nick for showing Zaza's past also and seeing both sides of the case with a clear lens. Maybe Zaza just got done watching Spurs playoff games and took some hints from the Godfather of the play, I don't know.

Don't show this to ManRam or others, though. They'll be aghast at what in the world Bruce Bowen and Popovich have to do with any of this.

PS: Here's hoping some reporter has the balls to re-quote these lines from Pop and asks for his reaction, given his outrage at Zaza.

flea
05-16-2017, 07:04 PM
Pretty clearly a dirty play. Hopefully they go after Curry's twig ankles tonight. Good hard basketball.

nastynice
05-16-2017, 07:44 PM
What? He jumped to try to block the shot, and then when he landed he took a little extra step to get directly under Kawhi's feet. What do you mean he didn't leave his feet?

When I say "leave your feet", I'm talking about an actual contest, not a hand in the face

nastynice
05-16-2017, 07:47 PM
Pretty clearly a dirty play. Hopefully they go after Curry's twig ankles tonight. Good hard basketball.

Haha, yes! Flea, ur my boy, but I smell a new hate crew member..?

Good! I'm hungry! :nod:

Post in the game thread. It's funner. I wanna talk hella **** to you :)

Aust
05-16-2017, 08:17 PM
I think so.

HandsOnTheWheel
05-16-2017, 09:32 PM
Christ some people are annoying.

da ThRONe
05-16-2017, 11:08 PM
For my definition of dirty there has to be intent. Not sure there was but it's clearly illegal for that very reason.

kdspurman
05-16-2017, 11:10 PM
For my definition of dirty there has to be intent. Not sure there was but it's clearly illegal for that very reason.

Fair.. It was illegal, yet no punishment came of it (not like it'd make a difference if he was suspended for game 2)

But yet the Spurs get a fine for resting players. Gotta love the NBA sometimes

JasonJohnHorn
05-16-2017, 11:33 PM
wait....what?


:laugh:

Yeah.... their first title gets the asterisks because they played the Cavs without Kyrie and Love and still got pushed to 6 games while LBJ practically averaged a triple-double.

This year, their path is clear by the fact that their stiffest competition is missing the MVP. They were getting trounced before Leonard went down.


I'm not saying this to take credit away from them. They are one of the best teams in history, and 99% of winning a title is simply putting yourself in a position to be there. And they have earned that. But when they won the first time, it wasn't against a healthy roster: the Cavs were missing two all-stars. That is huge. And the Warriors still needed 6 games in what should have been a sweep of epic proportions. So yeah... there's an asterisk on that.

And given that they were getting embarrassed by the Spurs with Leonard on the court, people will forever be wondering what would have happened had Zaza not knocked out the MVP.

I'm not saying it as a judgement: it just is.

sf-fanatic
05-17-2017, 02:52 AM
864676188857434112

Hmm

KnicksorBust
05-17-2017, 07:57 AM
Aldridge close-out is dirtier than Zaza.

Scoots
05-17-2017, 08:40 AM
Bruce Bowen believes the rules pertaining to it should remain as they are.

"It's not about changing the rule," he said. "But, there is a rule in place about a guy coming down. And, a guy like Steph Curry, knowing you can't get close to him, is going to take advantage. And we Monday-morning-quarterback and try to come up with solutions. But, it's the game."

I agree with Bowen.

Scoots
05-17-2017, 08:43 AM
Fair.. It was illegal, yet no punishment came of it (not like it'd make a difference if he was suspended for game 2)

But yet the Spurs get a fine for resting players. Gotta love the NBA sometimes

They were fined this year for resting players? Really?

kdspurman
05-17-2017, 11:02 AM
They were fined this year for resting players? Really?

No, not this year. Still doesn't change the inconsistenties the league shows when it comes to handing out punishments.

Tho Silver did come out and warn teams (only select teams he meant I'm sure) this season. But not a peep on this? It makes me wonder if Zaza did that to LeBron would he have spoken up.

FlashBolt
05-17-2017, 11:15 AM
No, not this year. Still doesn't change the inconsistenties the league shows when it comes to handing out punishments.

Tho Silver did come out and warn teams (only select teams he meant I'm sure) this season. But not a peep on this? It makes me wonder if Zaza did that to LeBron would he have spoken up.

They want the Warriors vs Cavs matchup... This Finals might be the most anticipated. Everyone's been waiting a year lmao.

KnicksorBust
05-17-2017, 11:38 AM
Genuinely surprised I'm in the minority on this.

Scoots
05-17-2017, 11:47 AM
No, not this year. Still doesn't change the inconsistenties the league shows when it comes to handing out punishments.

Tho Silver did come out and warn teams (only select teams he meant I'm sure) this season. But not a peep on this? It makes me wonder if Zaza did that to LeBron would he have spoken up.

Well if we're looking at the past what Zaza did used to be considered good defense right :)

The Spurs were fined for not lying to the fans back when that was expected behavior. It's not the first time the NBA took "action" only because something became a story despite it not being the first or last time.

The fact is that if Kawhi doesn't go down it's probably not even a foul and we hear none of this.

Scoots
05-17-2017, 11:48 AM
Genuinely surprised I'm in the minority on this.

I think people are kind of shell shocked by all of it.

I'm just hoping for a good game 3.

kdspurman
05-17-2017, 11:50 AM
Genuinely surprised I'm in the minority on this.

Yea I don't see how it's worse honestly.

kdspurman
05-17-2017, 11:56 AM
Well if we're looking at the past what Zaza did used to be considered good defense right :)

The Spurs were fined for not lying to the fans back when that was expected behavior. It's not the first time the NBA took "action" only because something became a story despite it not being the first or last time.

The fact is that if Kawhi doesn't go down it's probably not even a foul and we hear none of this.

This season tho, for him to speak out on players resting, warn teams, and not even speak up about this? You had an MVP caliber player go down in the WCF due to a play that is illegal, and not a peep? I know Kawhi isn't Lebron, but still, it seems kind of messed up.

Scoots
05-17-2017, 12:10 PM
This season tho, for him to speak out on players resting, warn teams, and not even speak up about this? You had an MVP caliber player go down in the WCF due to a play that is illegal, and not a peep? I know Kawhi isn't Lebron, but still, it seems kind of messed up.

I would guess that once Kiki said it was a common foul Silver can't really say much right now and help the NBA. I'm a little surprised the NBA hasn't put pressure on their TV partners to move on a little more than they have (not that they had much more on it)

nastynice
05-17-2017, 12:35 PM
This is dumb. What a dumb series. What the **** was that **** last night. Now I'm mad at Zaza!

Mr.B
05-17-2017, 01:23 PM
I agree with Bowen.

Bowen is the last person that should be commenting on this. He made a career out of doing the exact same thing and injured dozens of players throughout his career. To me seems like Spurs fans are just being crybabies. If you rooted for Bruce Bowen as a Spurs fan you have no right to complain now.

Kyben36
05-17-2017, 01:24 PM
Aldridge close-out is dirtier than Zaza.

not even close, im not saying adridge's was not dirty, but did you even see how far Zaza moved and kicked out his leg,

kdspurman
05-17-2017, 01:38 PM
Bowen is the last person that should be commenting on this. He made a career out of doing the exact same thing and injured dozens of players throughout his career. To me seems like Spurs fans are just being crybabies. If you rooted for Bruce Bowen as a Spurs fan you have no right to complain now.

What does Kawhi have to do with Bowen?

Here's what I don't get about this logic....

If GS's franchise player gets intentionally kicked in the nuts in 10 years from now, I guess GS fans have no right to be upset?

Or better yet, if a Mavs player gets punched in the nuts 10 years from now, (Your best player, and has to come out of a WCF game) I guess you'd have no right to complain either? (Jason Terry)

Where does it end with players not having a right to complain due to something that happened X amount of years ago?

Not all Spurs fans ROOTED for Bowen to do those things. Most didn't actually. He was rooted for when he played the right way, it was indefensible at times with what he did.

Heediot
05-17-2017, 01:41 PM
As for Zaza

that was dipicable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BTfa3Zt50

I'd slot Zaza between Brock showing the wheelchair guy down the stairs and Stone Cold pummeling Vince's ankle in the hospital!

BKLYNpigeon
05-17-2017, 02:26 PM
Those Zaza and Aldridge close outs was all questionable. Kawhi got hurt so it makes it worse.

i feel bad for Kawhi, but not for the Spurs. They have done this for years with Bowen and Horry.

Scoots
05-17-2017, 03:03 PM
What does Kawhi have to do with Bowen?

Here's what I don't get about this logic....

If GS's franchise player gets intentionally kicked in the nuts in 10 years from now, I guess GS fans have no right to be upset?

Or better yet, if a Mavs player gets punched in the nuts 10 years from now, (Your best player, and has to come out of a WCF game) I guess you'd have no right to complain either? (Jason Terry)

Where does it end with players not having a right to complain due to something that happened X amount of years ago?

Not all Spurs fans ROOTED for Bowen to do those things. Most didn't actually. He was rooted for when he played the right way, it was indefensible at times with what he did.

The Bowen thing is a big deal only because Pop ranted. If Pop doesn't say anything this is probably all over now. Spurs fans getting livid over a defender undercutting a jump shooter is always going to bring up an easy comparison, just like if a Bills kicker misses an important field goal to the right there will always be some idiot who says to a Bills fan "Wide right" and just like Warriors fans are going to hear 3-1 forever. You have to own your history, and it seems like Spurs fans and Pop maybe thought you could get away with wishing it away.

That said, you are right ... the enforcement of the rules and the league Bowen played in were different and have no direct bearing on this series.

FlashBolt
05-17-2017, 03:58 PM
Take out Bowen from all of this and you can't dispute any of what Pop said. That was a dirty and unorthodox play that looked intentional due to the player we're dealing with. At the end of the day, Spurs were giving the Warriors a whoopin and as soon as Kawhi was inactive, it became a slaughterhouse. Games 1+2, without Kawhi, lost by 60 points.

LA4life24/8
05-17-2017, 05:10 PM
Nope. Just a basketball play. Unfortunately for the spurs.

Was aldriges a dirty play? Looked a lot more advertent than zazas

flea
05-17-2017, 08:50 PM
Haha, yes! Flea, ur my boy, but I smell a new hate crew member..?

Good! I'm hungry! :nod:

Post in the game thread. It's funner. I wanna talk hella **** to you :)

I don't watch if there's a good hockey game on, these playoffs suck. I'll watch the Finals.

flea
05-17-2017, 08:54 PM
Also I don't really get the Bowen comparison. Yeah, he got up in guys' space and yeah he was borderline dirty. But a lot of players did that then, it was legal defense. If Bowen had 2-hopped underneath a previously injured player's ankle with no shot at a contest then yeah it would have been dirty - even if it was legal like it was when he played.

To me it's weird that there is some magical tunnel that jumpshooters are given where if you even breathe on them during or after their release then it's a shooting foul. It wasn't like that when Bowen played, which is part of why shooting rates are up to an absurd extent, meanwhile you're still allowed to body check and smack elbows on post players when they shoot.

Dirty play but so what? That's basketball. Spurs should retaliate.

goingfor28
05-17-2017, 11:54 PM
A Spurs fan filed a lawsuit against Zaza lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

sf-fanatic
05-18-2017, 04:54 AM
Yea I don't see how it's worse honestly.

Its probably worse because LMA gave such a poor effort and didnt even bother to contest the shot (so he cant use the momentum excuse). And hes just sticks his foot out with an extra step from a stationary position although Durant did jump forward but Durants weight landed on his back foot. LMA kind of gives a "guilty" reaction like you know you did something wrong after as well.

chipurmunki
05-19-2017, 05:11 AM
coming from zaza? absolutely.

Scoots
05-19-2017, 10:55 AM
Take out Bowen from all of this and you can't dispute any of what Pop said. That was a dirty and unorthodox play that looked intentional due to the player we're dealing with. At the end of the day, Spurs were giving the Warriors a whoopin and as soon as Kawhi was inactive, it became a slaughterhouse. Games 1+2, without Kawhi, lost by 60 points.

So unorthodox we've seen it multiple times throughout these playoffs. I have no issue with it being a foul, even a flagrant, but officials have to eliminate the flopping calls for it to work.

tredigs
05-19-2017, 12:38 PM
This thread should have had an option C) I have no ****ing clue.

That would be the correct response for all of us.

FlashBolt
05-19-2017, 12:58 PM
So unorthodox we've seen it multiple times throughout these playoffs. I have no issue with it being a foul, even a flagrant, but officials have to eliminate the flopping calls for it to work.

Multiple in what quantity? Feet are moving constantly but that was just a weird play with a player with history. How many of the guys doing it had history? LaMarcus is softer than toilet paper. No way this guy has any intent.

tredigs
05-19-2017, 01:10 PM
Multiple in what quantity? Feet are moving constantly but that was just a weird play with a player with history. How many of the guys doing it had history? LaMarcus is softer than toilet paper. No way this guy has any intent.

Don't underestimate motive. The fair response is that we don't know on any of these, but LMA's last one didn't seem very sly to say the least lol.

FlashBolt
05-19-2017, 01:22 PM
Don't underestimate motive. The fair response is that we don't know on any of these, but LMA's last one didn't seem very sly to say the least lol.

I've never seen LMA commit dirty plays like Zaza has, though. And that's like the boy who cried wolf. If Kobe flops once or twice and Harden flops damn near every play, who do you give the call to? Kobe for sure. This is the same analogy. LMA possibly may have known what he was doing but if we go by that notion, Zaza definitely knew what he was doing. He probably has a book of how to play dirty and get away with it. C'mon. Dude really didn't know Kawhi landed on his foot? Ran around like there was phantom contact...

tredigs
05-19-2017, 02:46 PM
I've never seen LMA commit dirty plays like Zaza has, though. And that's like the boy who cried wolf. If Kobe flops once or twice and Harden flops damn near every play, who do you give the call to? Kobe for sure. This is the same analogy. LMA possibly may have known what he was doing but if we go by that notion, Zaza definitely knew what he was doing. He probably has a book of how to play dirty and get away with it. C'mon. Dude really didn't know Kawhi landed on his foot? Ran around like there was phantom contact...

I think from the other point of view it's that feet touching is so common after shots that he couldn't believe something was called. Zaza's never been called for this play in his life to my knowledge, so it's entirely possible he thought he was getting hosed. Who knows. LMA doesn't have a history of this either (or many dirty plays in general to my knowledge), but he's not a very awkward player and that last step forward was clearly intentional on his part. We can say he wasn't trying to get under KD's foot (which he in fact did, KD just didn't go down), but it seemed like a much more methodical, deliberate motion than Zaza's. It's all moot now though, everybody has their opinions and for the most part is "I don't know". Just hope all that is done with.

Saddletramp
05-19-2017, 03:05 PM
I think from the other point of view it's that feet touching is so common after shots that he couldn't believe something was called. Zaza's never been called for this play in his life to my knowledge, so it's entirely possible he thought he was getting hosed. Who knows. LMA doesn't have a history of this either (or many dirty plays in general to my knowledge), but he's not a very awkward player and that last step forward was clearly intentional on his part. We can say he wasn't trying to get under KD's foot (which he in fact did, KD just didn't go down), but it seemed like a much more methodical, deliberate motion than Zaza's. It's all moot now though, everybody has their opinions and for the most part is "I don't know". Just hope all that is done with.

This might be the most blatantly igornant thing you've ever said here. Complete homer statement trying whatever you can to justify ZaZa's reaction.

The ****ing guy ran around like there was no contact. Regardless if he agreed with the foul, he had to realize ACTING like that was completely overboard.

Scoots
05-19-2017, 03:20 PM
Multiple in what quantity? Feet are moving constantly but that was just a weird play with a player with history. How many of the guys doing it had history? LaMarcus is softer than toilet paper. No way this guy has any intent.

I'm not talking about intent. Bigs going out to challenge doing the sideways shuffle. Player history has nothing to do with a move being unorthodox or otherwise.

Speaking of that specific play ... if Kawhi lands on Zaza's feet and just runs to the other end of the court we never hear about it. It's only because of injury. I'm not saying that's right, but the way the NBA is being officiated is going to result in injuries since dangerous behavior that doesn't injure is being allowed.

Scoots
05-19-2017, 03:24 PM
This might be the most blatantly igornant thing you've ever said here. Complete homer statement trying whatever you can to justify ZaZa's reaction.

The ****ing guy ran around like there was no contact. Regardless if he agreed with the foul, he had to realize ACTING like that was completely overboard.

That is far from the most ignorant think tre has said :)

And I'm not certain Zaza knew Kawhi was hurt when he ran off like an idiot. He likely felt some contact but fouls are usually a result of contact above the knees not around the feet.

FlashBolt
05-19-2017, 03:29 PM
I'm not talking about intent. Bigs going out to challenge doing the sideways shuffle. Player history has nothing to do with a move being unorthodox or otherwise.

Speaking of that specific play ... if Kawhi lands on Zaza's feet and just runs to the other end of the court we never hear about it. It's only because of injury. I'm not saying that's right, but the way the NBA is being officiated is going to result in injuries since dangerous behavior that doesn't injure is being allowed.

If executed correctly depending on the height/landing, it injures you. Obviously not everyone will get injured. Type of shoes also matter. It's why LeBron's sneakers are my favorite if you need ankle support. But generally, that move WILL affect your ankle. If he ran to the other side of the court is moot. He did get injured and his ankles gave up because of that.

Scoots
05-19-2017, 03:54 PM
If executed correctly depending on the height/landing, it injures you. Obviously not everyone will get injured. Type of shoes also matter. It's why LeBron's sneakers are my favorite if you need ankle support. But generally, that move WILL affect your ankle. If he ran to the other side of the court is moot. He did get injured and his ankles gave up because of that.

The hypothetical of Kawhi not getting injured is not moot when my point is that this kind of thing is ignored more often than it is called if the offensive player doesn't make a "thing" out if it. If the offensive player is injured it's a call and maybe some media/online talk, if the offensive player emphasizes (not necessarily flopping) the defensive players foot it is sometimes a foul call, if the offensive player acts like nothing happened I've never seen it called at all. If you want the behavior to end you need officials to call it when there is no injury.

FlashBolt
05-19-2017, 03:56 PM
The hypothetical of Kawhi not getting injured is not moot when my point is that this kind of thing is ignored more often than it is called if the offensive player doesn't make a "thing" out if it. If the offensive player is injured it's a call and maybe some media/online talk, if the offensive player emphasizes (not necessarily flopping) the defensive players foot it is sometimes a foul call, if the offensive player acts like nothing happened I've never seen it called at all. If you want the behavior to end you need officials to call it when there is no injury.

That's actually what I would think, too. I'm not blaming Zaza for that play more-so it was pretty blatant and his reputation is impossible to brush off. NBA would never call a flagrant on that because it's rarely enforced if at all. But you're right: They have to look at this more often considering the explosion of the shooting era.

tredigs
05-19-2017, 04:58 PM
That is far from the most ignorant think tre has said :)

And I'm not certain Zaza knew Kawhi was hurt when he ran off like an idiot. He likely felt some contact but fouls are usually a result of contact above the knees not around the feet.
Thank you!

lol, please
05-20-2017, 03:43 PM
coming from zaza? absolutely.

Why? What has he done that you would not give a player the benefit of the doubt that they are just playing ball?