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View Full Version : Harden/Westy MVP talk in hindsight



JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2017, 08:46 AM
The MVP is a regular season award, so playoffs shouldn't be a factor.

That said... now that we see, despite his triple-double season, Westy is only managed to get 1 win in the post season, and that Harden went ghost in the most important game of the season, and had a sub-par series overall, does it seem like people overvalued their impressive personal stats with respect to how valuable they were to their respective teams?

warfelg
05-12-2017, 09:05 AM
This is why MVP and all other awards should be voted and announced right at the end of the season. They were the co-MVP's IMO.

tredigs
05-12-2017, 09:17 AM
The MVP is a regular season award, so playoffs shouldn't be a factor.

That said... now that we see, despite his triple-double season, Westy is only managed to get 1 win in the post season, and that Harden went ghost in the most important game of the season, and had a sub-par series overall, does it seem like people overvalued their impressive personal stats with respect to how valuable they were to their respective teams?

I don't think many considered them top 3 players in the NBA, but what they did for their teams day in and day out certainly warranted MVP consideration.

That said, I don't think I've ever seen a star player shoot 18% from the field in the playoffs as much as Harden (multiple times as their "win or go home" at that). And while I'm not short of my criticisms of Westbrook, at least we know he's going to go down fighting.

GREATNESS ONE
05-12-2017, 09:24 AM
Westbrook is MVP

da ThRONe
05-12-2017, 09:27 AM
This is why MVP and all other awards should be voted and announced right at the end of the season. They were the co-MVP's IMO.

Agreed. If they want to add another award make a playoffs MVP along with Finals MVP. But if you are giving away a regular season award then all that should matter is the regular season period.

IndyRealist
05-12-2017, 09:33 AM
Agreed. If they want to add another award make a playoffs MVP along with Finals MVP. But if you are giving away a regular season award then all that should matter is the regular season period.

The regular season IS all that matters for MVP. These awards are voted on before the playoffs start.

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 09:46 AM
criteria should change. no one cares about regular season and it's more evident now than ever..

hayley1988
05-12-2017, 10:23 AM
I's a regular season award, so their playoff performance is irrelevant. They were the two best players during the regular season. They deserve to finish 1/2 in the rankings, imo.

Scoots
05-12-2017, 11:01 AM
My MVP vote was Kawhi ... I'm feeling pretty good about that choice.

JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2017, 11:59 AM
I's a regular season award, so their playoff performance is irrelevant. They were the two best players during the regular season. They deserve to finish 1/2 in the rankings, imo.

Best players? Or most impressive individual stats? There is a huge difference.

If we use that as a measuring stick, then T-Mac arguably gets back-to-back MVPs for a first-round exit and a lottery season.

Would you, knowing how everybody played, prefer to have LBJ, Leonard, Curry, Westy, or Harden as your team's first option?

You might legitimately pick Westy or Harden, but I think most people would pick of of the other three.

Best/most impressive stats do not equal best player, or even the most valuable player. They are just the most impressive stats.

Obviously this is subjective, and this is not to say you are wrong, but there are different ways to look at this.

I would say AD is a better player, or more impactful player than either Harden or Westbrook, and I think most GM's would be willing to give up more for him than either of them.

JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2017, 12:01 PM
My MVP vote was Kawhi ... I'm feeling pretty good about that choice.

My top two picks were Leonard in LBJ. I am also feeling pretty good about that. CP3 would have been my third option.

I'd say each of those guys have proved their value these post-seasons.

IKnowHoops
05-12-2017, 12:10 PM
Westbrook deserved MVP. Lebron is always the MVP.

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 12:11 PM
Before anyone says Spurs won without Kawhi. That's true. James Harden was a no-show, though. His presence on the court literally destroyed his team. It was a self-destruction I've never seen before.

archdevil84
05-12-2017, 12:30 PM
why havent any of the rewards been announced anyway? i remember previous years most, if not all of the yearly rewards were handed out in the 2nd round of the playoffs

europagnpilgrim
05-12-2017, 01:25 PM
Best players? Or most impressive individual stats? There is a huge difference.

If we use that as a measuring stick, then T-Mac arguably gets back-to-back MVPs for a first-round exit and a lottery season.

Would you, knowing how everybody played, prefer to have LBJ, Leonard, Curry, Westy, or Harden as your team's first option?

You might legitimately pick Westy or Harden, but I think most people would pick of of the other three.

Best/most impressive stats do not equal best player, or even the most valuable player. They are just the most impressive stats.

Obviously this is subjective, and this is not to say you are wrong, but there are different ways to look at this.

I would say AD is a better player, or more impactful player than either Harden or Westbrook, and I think most GM's would be willing to give up more for him than either of them.

TMac was a mvp candidate though right? so he had a shot to win both those years but didn't

impressive stats for a team that was picked to fall off cliff after KD left is valuable, but it was more it hasn't been done since 62' really put Westbrook up there, along with the way KD went to a 73 win team, Harden/Rockets were picked to win around 40 or so game and almost won 60, so that carries weight with impressive stats+win total

AD is better building block/franchise player but being available is also very valuable and really trumps all because you cant put up impressive stats in volume if you are on the injured list or always knicked up to where it hinders your full ability to perform at max level, where Harden/Russell have been basically iron men compared to AD, but if I were starting a franchise I would go with AD with all health equal but based on the past few yrs it would be other way around since we all know AD has missed a bunch of games which doesn't bring much value to your team impact/winning wise

JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2017, 01:34 PM
why havent any of the rewards been announced anyway? i remember previous years most, if not all of the yearly rewards were handed out in the 2nd round of the playoffs

They are changing the format and having all the awards come out after the season, which really kills the mood if you ask me.

europagnpilgrim
05-12-2017, 01:34 PM
criteria should change. no one cares about regular season and it's more evident now than ever..


its been pretty evident since the Jordan title era that the veteran title caliber teams don't care about the regular season, not true for the young up and coming players/teams who are trying to establish themselves and get paid, the regular season is here for a good reason, of course the criteria should and would change, it always does and we just go with the flow and complain about it for 82 games until the playoffs get here, you post about the regular season way more than you do about the postseason because of the length of it so obviously you care about it, alot

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 02:31 PM
its been pretty evident since the Jordan title era that the veteran title caliber teams don't care about the regular season, not true for the young up and coming players/teams who are trying to establish themselves and get paid, the regular season is here for a good reason, of course the criteria should and would change, it always does and we just go with the flow and complain about it for 82 games until the playoffs get here, you post about the regular season way more than you do about the postseason because of the length of it so obviously you care about it, alot

I meant that no one cares in terms of the generality of it. Certainly some players put up ridiculous seasons that is worth considering. When a guy like Lebron would rather take a game off than be the 1st seed, what does that tell you? Max kellerman summed it up pretty quick: if you're an NBA MVP candidate, you should be able to lead your team to the playoffs considering about more than half the teams make it. if you're not playing well in the playoffs, you shouldn't be MVP. It's impossible to critique the regular season the way it has been before. Guys are just making too much to care about some back to back game that seems like they are all bored.

Scoots
05-12-2017, 03:29 PM
Before anyone says Spurs won without Kawhi. That's true. James Harden was a no-show, though. His presence on the court literally destroyed his team. It was a self-destruction I've never seen before.

Have you watched the Raptors the last few years?

Scoots
05-12-2017, 03:33 PM
why havent any of the rewards been announced anyway? i remember previous years most, if not all of the yearly rewards were handed out in the 2nd round of the playoffs

NBA decided to make an awards show and announce most of the awards at one time.

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 04:37 PM
Have you watched the Raptors the last few years?

From a player, no, I have not seen a player melt down the way Harden did. You can refer back to James in 2011 but that's like if Dirk was injured. Kawhi is out and this guy Harden plays like the other team has Duncan, Russell, Pippen, Gary Payton, and MJ.

Bostonjorge
05-12-2017, 04:42 PM
Westbrook is the MVP.

If we add the playoffs. Westbrook went down fighting. Playing as many minutes he could play against a super hot Rockets team that still had Nene playing good playoff basketball.

Harden went down overwhelmed by the moment. Harden was mentally defeated after game 5. Harden still had a amazing season.

Scoots
05-12-2017, 04:46 PM
Why is it the Westbrook people seem more likely to state Westbrook's candidacy as a fact? Even before the "leak".

I think Westbrook is likely to win, but for me he didn't finish in the top 3.

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 05:09 PM
Why is it the Westbrook people seem more likely to state Westbrook's candidacy as a fact? Even before the "leak".

I think Westbrook is likely to win, but for me he didn't finish in the top 3.

It's really between harden vs Westy but I don't see it any other way. Bron just lost too many games and Kawhi, 7-1 record without him is too difficult to ignore.

Kyben36
05-12-2017, 05:17 PM
the mvp is a regular season award, so playoffs shouldn't be a factor.

That said... Now that we see, despite his triple-double season, westy is only managed to get 1 win in the post season, and that harden went ghost in the most important game of the season, and had a sub-par series overall, does it seem like people overvalued their impressive personal stats with respect to how valuable they were to their respective teams?

unsure how their playoff experience affects anything, i have said for a long time, mvp does not = best player, we all know this. Mvp is the exact wording of it, who is to most valuable player to their team. The thunder without westy is likely a bottom 5 team. And houston without harden would be right there with them. They are both deserving.

More-Than-Most
05-12-2017, 05:24 PM
Lebron


Durant-Injuries- So he is out


Westy
KL
Harden


That is how it should be... How it will likely be

Harden or westy
KL or lebron

Everyone else.

Its a joke how we take what lebron does for granted.... There is no player on the levels of Durant/Lebron.... KL would be my next closest because of the 2 way play.

Mell413
05-12-2017, 05:29 PM
Its possible for someone to have a better season than LeBron and not be considered the best player in the league. I think that's the case here.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 05:48 PM
Lebron


Durant-Injuries- So he is out


Westy
KL
Harden


That is how it should be... How it will likely be

Harden or westy
KL or lebron

Everyone else.

Its a joke how we take what lebron does for granted.... There is no player on the levels of Durant/Lebron.... KL would be my next closest because of the 2 way play.

You speak as though Durant is on LeBrons level, he definitely isn't. LeBron is by himself at the top.

Scoots
05-12-2017, 07:06 PM
Lebron


Durant-Injuries- So he is out


Westy
KL
Harden


That is how it should be... How it will likely be

Harden or westy
KL or lebron

Everyone else.

Its a joke how we take what lebron does for granted.... There is no player on the levels of Durant/Lebron.... KL would be my next closest because of the 2 way play.

LeBron takes himself out of the conversation by not playing full LeBron for the regular season.

More-Than-Most
05-12-2017, 07:13 PM
LeBron takes himself out of the conversation by not playing full LeBron for the regular season.

because he knows even if he does he will not get the award because people take his greatness for granted... example... how many MVP awards he should have won but didnt... Would you keep trying if you got screwed and were only getting labeled for what you do in the playoffs?

More-Than-Most
05-12-2017, 07:15 PM
You speak as though Durant is on LeBrons level, he definitely isn't. LeBron is by himself at the top.

there is a dent in between the 2 on my list..... never said he was as good as bron but he is the closest in the NBA because of his 2 way play.... I think the dude is the biggest coward in the world but his on the court play is 2nd to bron.

valade16
05-12-2017, 07:21 PM
because he knows even if he does he will not get the award because people take his greatness for granted... example... how many MVP awards he should have won but didnt... Would you keep trying if you got screwed and were only getting labeled for what you do in the playoffs?

Whether he gets an MVP is irrelevant to his decision. He's doing it to conserve his energy and legs for the playoffs. If he went all-out for the whole season he wouldn't be as effective in the playoffs. Him coasting has nothing to do with people not giving him MVPs, when he went all-out during the regular season we gave him 4/5 MVPs, he'd probably have more if he went all-out but he'd also just as likely have less rings, and I'm betting he'd rather have the rings.

JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2017, 07:30 PM
TMac was a mvp candidate though right? so he had a shot to win both those years but didn't

I wouldn't say Harden or Westy aren't 'candidates'. McGrady finished fourth in voting the year the Magic made the playoffs, which is about where I'd put Westy and Harden.

But the year after, which was as impressive in most respects (still a league leader in scoring and great all-around stats), he didn't even get in the top-ten. 16 guys got more votes than him, including AK47, Sam Cassell, and Ben Wallace, none of whom even ageraged 20 points, and Wallace didn't even average 10.




impressive stats for a team that was picked to fall off cliff after KD left is valuable, but it was more it hasn't been done since 62' really put Westbrook up there, along with the way KD went to a 73 win team, Harden/Rockets were picked to win around 40 or so game and almost won 60, so that carries weight with impressive stats+win total

Agree 100%. And I agree that they deserve consideration for the award, and deserve more than most players, but I'd also say the guys who were critical to making their teams contenders and not simply competitive deserve more consideration, especially Leonard.

JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2017, 07:33 PM
Have you watched the Raptors the last few years?

I'd say the Raptors grossly over achieve each season just by playing consistently.

Their roster isn't nearly as good as they record suggests. It's the GK/Nuggets all over again.

Jamiecballer
05-12-2017, 09:39 PM
Why is it the Westbrook people seem more likely to state Westbrook's candidacy as a fact? Even before the "leak".

I think Westbrook is likely to win, but for me he didn't finish in the top 3.
I agree. For me it's a clear case of Leonard and James at the top, Westbrook and Harden 3/4 in some order. The voters wont agree but hey.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

valade16
05-12-2017, 10:39 PM
There's no way LeBron deserves it. He was clearly coasting and his metric numbers indicate that, not to mention despite being the overwhelming juggernaught of the East, he won a paltry 51 games and didn't even get the #1 seed.

People are confusing who is the best player with who had the best season, they are not always the same.

europagnpilgrim
05-12-2017, 10:57 PM
I wouldn't say Harden or Westy aren't 'candidates'. McGrady finished fourth in voting the year the Magic made the playoffs, which is about where I'd put Westy and Harden.

But the year after, which was as impressive in most respects (still a league leader in scoring and great all-around stats), he didn't even get in the top-ten. 16 guys got more votes than him, including AK47, Sam Cassell, and Ben Wallace, none of whom even ageraged 20 points, and Wallace didn't even average 10.





Agree 100%. And I agree that they deserve consideration for the award, and deserve more than most players, but I'd also say the guys who were critical to making their teams contenders and not simply competitive deserve more consideration, especially Leonard.

That's crazy Tmac finished that low the following season but it is what it be

I picked Leonard/Harden to win the nba mvp but it seems the media has picked Westbrook, had Lebron finished with 55+ wins then he very well could have been on his way to his 5th to make up for past seasons he could or should have won, had KD remained healthy I would have had him or Leonard to win but we know that injury derailed those chances because KD would have had the numbers/best record to which the media has rode that horse for at least the past 10-20yrs it seems

no doubt Westbrook and Harden deserve consideration heavily, just like I felt TMac should have both of those years he won scoring title and dragged a weak team to the playoffs with I think M Miller as his robin

Scoots
05-12-2017, 11:07 PM
because he knows even if he does he will not get the award because people take his greatness for granted... example... how many MVP awards he should have won but didnt... Would you keep trying if you got screwed and were only getting labeled for what you do in the playoffs?

Yes, because you play for pride and your teammates not for awards.

europagnpilgrim
05-12-2017, 11:12 PM
I meant that no one cares in terms of the generality of it. Certainly some players put up ridiculous seasons that is worth considering. When a guy like Lebron would rather take a game off than be the 1st seed, what does that tell you? Max kellerman summed it up pretty quick: if you're an NBA MVP candidate, you should be able to lead your team to the playoffs considering about more than half the teams make it. if you're not playing well in the playoffs, you shouldn't be MVP. It's impossible to critique the regular season the way it has been before. Guys are just making too much to care about some back to back game that seems like they are all bored.

Lebron taking a game(s) off tells me he has been in the league a mighty long time(mileage) because his first 6-9yrs we heard nothing of him wanting to rest and he was churning up number 1/2 seeds or at least trying as best as he could, each team(or most) has a mvp and some don't get recognition because they don't make the playoffs but KAT put up MVP type numbers and so has Davis who has made the playoffs but barely and other times haven't so Max Kellerman is just talking because that is what he is paid to do, he also said Brady will fall off a cliff within the next 10 months and he may be right but its not looking good(unless the Madden curse stays on cue)

to me a back to back proves your mental/killer instinct/conditioning, rather your team wins or loses it shows what you are truly made of, all sports could use a schedule makeover especially a human car crash league like the nfl

the human body is built to run and run long miles, nba and soccer players should have no problem doing that, its just the night/party life is why most tend to rest more these days, they are doing it up big time, others back then like Jordan/AI would just play through it and they would call it a flu game, code word for 'a hangover'

More-Than-Most
05-13-2017, 12:10 AM
There's no way LeBron deserves it. He was clearly coasting and his metric numbers indicate that, not to mention despite being the overwhelming juggernaught of the East, he won a paltry 51 games and didn't even get the #1 seed.

People are confusing who is the best player with who had the best season, they are not always the same.

does being the best player not bring the most value? Again if you take Lebron off the cavs they dont make the playoffs if you go by how they play without him. He does far more for his team than anyone else... I am not disagreeing that he wont win it because he wont and I am fine with the person who has the best season winning it but i am not sure anyone is more valuable than him... If we are talking about best season it should be the best season award no?

valade16
05-13-2017, 12:50 AM
does being the best player not bring the most value? Again if you take Lebron off the cavs they dont make the playoffs if you go by how they play without him. He does far more for his team than anyone else... I am not disagreeing that he wont win it because he wont and I am fine with the person who has the best season winning it but i am not sure anyone is more valuable than him... If we are talking about best season it should be the best season award no?

Not always. For instance James Harden was the best player overall in game 6, but he definitely didn't bring the most value nor was he the best player that specific game. I don't think he does far more than everyone else, Westy does a ton (a historic load in fact), Harden did a ton and Kawhi does a ton as well (games 5 and 6 notwithstanding).

I think we have to keep in perspective how much better Bron is playing in the playoffs. He's scoring 8 more PPG while getting more rebounds, double his steals and blocks while shooting a higher FG, 3PT and FT %. He has stepped his game up (as he should have because he was saving his energy for the playoffs). Had LeBron been playing this determined the entire season he would be MVP, but when you don't play as he's you aren't as impactful game to game, hence why he won't win MVP.

JordansBulls
05-14-2017, 12:48 AM
Lebron


Durant-Injuries- So he is out


Westy
KL
Harden


That is how it should be... How it will likely be

Harden or westy
KL or lebron

Everyone else.

Its a joke how we take what lebron does for granted.... There is no player on the levels of Durant/Lebron.... KL would be my next closest because of the 2 way play.

Well should had won more than 51 games then especially as a defending champion.

KingPosey
05-14-2017, 01:22 AM
Best players? Or most impressive individual stats? There is a huge difference.

If we use that as a measuring stick, then T-Mac arguably gets back-to-back MVPs for a first-round exit and a lottery season.

Would you, knowing how everybody played, prefer to have LBJ, Leonard, Curry, Westy, or Harden as your team's first option?

You might legitimately pick Westy or Harden, but I think most people would pick of of the other three.

Best/most impressive stats do not equal best player, or even the most valuable player. They are just the most impressive stats.

Obviously this is subjective, and this is not to say you are wrong, but there are different ways to look at this.

I would say AD is a better player, or more impactful player than either Harden or Westbrook, and I think most GM's would be willing to give up more for him than either of them.

Until the very end of his career tmac was one of the absolute best playoff performers statistically of all time so that's always been a completely unfair criticism of his.

Also, while I'm not going to argue they are top 3 choices for me to start a franchise with, weather absolutely DRAGGED a dead horse for 82 games. They played like a 51 win team with him on the court and an 18 win team when he was off. That's ****ing incredible

GREATNESS ONE
05-14-2017, 09:13 AM
Russell Westy is MVP

FlashBolt
05-14-2017, 12:45 PM
because he knows even if he does he will not get the award because people take his greatness for granted... example... how many MVP awards he should have won but didnt... Would you keep trying if you got screwed and were only getting labeled for what you do in the playoffs?

This year, he doesn't have a case. You can't lose that many games with the squad he has while another player with much less generates the same or near amount of wins.. It just doesn't make sense. I get he's preserving himself but that's also a sign that he's not as healthy as he has been in the past because why rest unless you really felt you had to? Who's to say James Harden not resting resulted in his playoff performance? Should someone be penalized for actually PLAYING the games? Makes no sense. I can care less who wins it at this point. I think they should have announced it before the Harden vs Westbrook series just so we can get some stories going but two months later? Nobody cares. I'll be grilling some damn hot dogs and steak by then.

WaDe03
05-14-2017, 01:05 PM
there is a dent in between the 2 on my list..... never said he was as good as bron but he is the closest in the NBA because of his 2 way play.... I think the dude is the biggest coward in the world but his on the court play is 2nd to bron.

Ahhhh I see I though you were putting them on the same level. I agree with you though, I have him on his own level and KD behind him a tier down.

Leftcoast_yg
05-14-2017, 03:35 PM
Same song