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View Full Version : I am sooo glad that d'antoni's gimmick ball didnt win



nicnac
05-12-2017, 12:38 AM
ok, it may not be the only reason, but the nba is a better sport for me to enjoy when the focus isn't on watching 30% of long shots going in, 70% being missed. there are actually only a few nba players who should have the green light to shoot threes, modern stats be damn, BC they just aren't efficient. it's ugly, stagnant basketball, over emphasized by mikey

people talk about the triangle. well can it be as simple as teaching players to cut and constantly move without the ball instead of stand in a spot and wait for a 3 pt shot?

and yes, the Warriors shoot 3s, but their skills set is higher and they do play off the ball.

overall, nba basketball is better off for the spurs to win this series, showing that this star driven and marketed sport can be won without the number one star of the team, coached by someone who developes players but not gimmicks

rant over

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 12:41 AM
this isn't D'antoni's fault. He worked with what he had. It's 100% harden's fault. He simply did not show up, did not seem aggressive at any point, kept jacking threes, and Kawhi was injured/dnp. he had zero excuses to not show up. D'Antoni can't force Harden to play well. at the end of the day, they overachieved but they should have gotten this to 7 games at the very least. You can tell D'antoni was disappointed in Harden. He basically said he wasn't aware of any injuries that Harden had so he couldn't comment on his performance.

More-Than-Most
05-12-2017, 12:59 AM
I have no allegiance, no rooting interest, but Harden’s Game 6 dud was an unacceptable performance for an MVP candidate. Not only did Harden play exceptionally poorly, his body language from the opening tip projected failure. He was aloof, disinterested, disengaged, defeated. What kind of a team leader — a most valuable player, if you will — is that?

LOb0
05-12-2017, 01:15 AM
Somehow this moron won coach of the year. All he does is say "Run", completely disregards defense, doesn't run plays and always gets exposed in the playoffs.

Ariza's Better
05-12-2017, 01:31 AM
I think D'antoni may have ****ed the OP's mum. Only explanation for his sad post. He should be happy his mum got to taste that Pringle juice.

Saddletramp
05-12-2017, 01:33 AM
Live it up, guys. You deserve it.

Mave1002
05-12-2017, 01:49 AM
ok, it may not be the only reason, but the nba is a better sport for me to enjoy when the focus isn't on watching 30% of long shots going in, 70% being missed. there are actually only a few nba players who should have the green light to shoot threes, modern stats be damn, BC they just aren't efficient. it's ugly, stagnant basketball, over emphasized by mikey

people talk about the triangle. well can it be as simple as teaching players to cut and constantly move without the ball instead of stand in a spot and wait for a 3 pt shot?

and yes, the Warriors shoot 3s, but their skills set is higher and they do play off the ball.

overall, nba basketball is better off for the spurs to win this series, showing that this star driven and marketed sport can be won without the number one star of the team, coached by someone who developes players but not gimmicks

rant over

Thank you!!!

I've never been a fan of James Harden, his beard and his style of play. So freakin' annoying.

The NBA would be a lot better without Dwight Howard and James Harden. I hated KG and Ray Allen especially when they played for the Celtics, but I respected them for being extremely fierce competitors.

FOXHOUND
05-12-2017, 01:50 AM
I think D'antoni may have ****ed the OP's mum. Only explanation for his sad post. He should be happy his mum got to taste that Pringle juice.

But did he stop popping or is he still going?

Ariza's Better
05-12-2017, 02:02 AM
But did he stop popping or is he still going?

He was probably splattering his mum from across the room. Was probably 19 from 40.

Jets012
05-12-2017, 02:21 AM
Harden didn't show up in a big game? An elimination one? I'm thoroughly shocked!

I'm glad though that the Rockets/Thunder both lost though. You can't win running an offense through one player. These teams that run offenses through guys that purposely try to stat-pad, don't defend, and posting 34+ usage rates will never work. They're great players obviously, but it just won't work.

SportsFanatic10
05-12-2017, 02:48 AM
I think D'antoni may have ****ed the OP's mum. Only explanation for his sad post. He should be happy his mum got to taste that Pringle juice.

He probably did it in 7 seconds or less.

Ariza's Better
05-12-2017, 02:51 AM
He probably did it in 7 seconds or less.
And you know he doesn't were a condom. He has no time for Defence.

SportsFanatic10
05-12-2017, 02:54 AM
And you know he doesn't were a condom. He has no time for Defence.

:laugh: he probably steps back across the room before he shoots to make it a 3. and never down with doggy style because it to closely resembles a post up.

lol, please
05-12-2017, 03:39 AM
I think D'antoni may have ****ed the OP's mum. Only explanation for his sad post. He should be happy his mum got to taste that Pringle juice.

:laugh:

IndyRealist
05-12-2017, 09:30 AM
ok, it may not be the only reason, but the nba is a better sport for me to enjoy when the focus isn't on watching 30% of long shots going in, 70% being missed. there are actually only a few nba players who should have the green light to shoot threes, modern stats be damn, BC they just aren't efficient. it's ugly, stagnant basketball, over emphasized by mikey

people talk about the triangle. well can it be as simple as teaching players to cut and constantly move without the ball instead of stand in a spot and wait for a 3 pt shot?

and yes, the Warriors shoot 3s, but their skills set is higher and they do play off the ball.

overall, nba basketball is better off for the spurs to win this series, showing that this star driven and marketed sport can be won without the number one star of the team, coached by someone who developes players but not gimmicks

rant over

I may be the only one to comment on the substance of the post, and only to say that this is moronic.

IKnowHoops
05-12-2017, 11:29 AM
I think D'antoni may have ****ed the OP's mum. Only explanation for his sad post. He should be happy his mum got to taste that Pringle juice.

Lololololol

IKnowHoops
05-12-2017, 11:34 AM
He was probably splattering his mum from across the room. Was probably 19 from 40.

Lolololol. "Mum" is so much better than "mom".

THE MTL
05-12-2017, 12:00 PM
D'Antoni system works perfectly for the Rockets. I think they somewhat overachieved for the personel that they have. 3rd in the West is pretty good and he completely reinvented James Harden.

This lost is all on James Harden.

Vee-Rex
05-12-2017, 12:10 PM
It was a good run for the Rockets. I ain't mad at 'em. D'Antoni took what he had and made it into a fierce team. Much better than most people expected at the beginning of the year. They just ran into a Spurs team that is pretty damn good. LMA loves playing the Rockets, that's for sure.

James Harden should've had a stronger effort. He puts up great numbers but in the playoffs he's just too inconsistent. I'd like him to put less of an emphasis on fishing for foul calls and more of an emphasis on getting buckets.

Still, the Rockets have a lot of room for improvement personnel-wise. I'm not making excuses for Harden but unless you're the GOAT, it's gonna be really tough for a one-superstar team to get really far, especially in today's league with multiple all-star teams.

IKnowHoops
05-12-2017, 12:14 PM
D---, rockets only made 9, 2 point field goals last night. Record since the shot clock era. 2nd worse all time.

hugepatsfan
05-12-2017, 12:31 PM
I'm curious to see where HOU goes from here. I think they need another star or two but I don't see a clear path to one this year. They should have max cap space next year though if they let Lou Williams and Ariza walk. Paul George would be a real nice fit there if he doesn't ultimately sign with the Lakers.

Beverly
Harden/Gordon
George/Dekker
Anderson
Capela

Unfortunately for HOU I don't feel George is going to choose to sign there. I don't see their big trade chips to land anyone big. It'll be really interesting to see how they move forward to try and add the extra talent they need.

Hawkeye15
05-12-2017, 04:55 PM
It was a good run for the Rockets. I ain't mad at 'em. D'Antoni took what he had and made it into a fierce team. Much better than most people expected at the beginning of the year. They just ran into a Spurs team that is pretty damn good. LMA loves playing the Rockets, that's for sure.

James Harden should've had a stronger effort. He puts up great numbers but in the playoffs he's just too inconsistent. I'd like him to put less of an emphasis on fishing for foul calls and more of an emphasis on getting buckets.

Still, the Rockets have a lot of room for improvement personnel-wise. I'm not making excuses for Harden but unless you're the GOAT, it's gonna be really tough for a one-superstar team to get really far, especially in today's league with multiple all-star teams.

Most, including me, were pegging them to be a borderline, fight for the playoff team. They did very well imo

Dade County
05-12-2017, 05:24 PM
ok, it may not be the only reason, but the nba is a better sport for me to enjoy when the focus isn't on watching 30% of long shots going in, 70% being missed. there are actually only a few nba players who should have the green light to shoot threes, modern stats be damn, BC they just aren't efficient. it's ugly, stagnant basketball, over emphasized by mikey

people talk about the triangle. well can it be as simple as teaching players to cut and constantly move without the ball instead of stand in a spot and wait for a 3 pt shot?

and yes, the Warriors shoot 3s, but their skills set is higher and they do play off the ball.

overall, nba basketball is better off for the spurs to win this series, showing that this star driven and marketed sport can be won without the number one star of the team, coached by someone who developes players but not gimmicks

rant over

This series lost doesn't fall on Mike D'Antoni. The Spurs was favored to win the series & they got the job done.

D'Antoni system works, so why the hate? If every team ran the same system what fun would that be?

Mike learned a valuable lesson, he needs to get a backup pg that can run his system & maybe he should try to target Jeremy Lin also.

So when not if, Harden attempts to pull this off again, D'Antoni can move Harden to the 2 or 3 & just have him stand by the 3pt line; or he can just sit him down for a qtr or so, but Mike system will still be well ran.

Protect your self D'Antoni.

Jeffy25
05-12-2017, 06:03 PM
Harden didn't show up in a big game? An elimination one? I'm thoroughly shocked!

I'm glad though that the Rockets/Thunder both lost though. You can't win running an offense through one player. These teams that run offenses through guys that purposely try to stat-pad, don't defend, and posting 34+ usage rates will never work. They're great players obviously, but it just won't work.

I agree with your post entirely except I want to point out that in 92-93 Jordan had a 34.7 Usage and a 38.0 playoff usage ;)

Jeffy25
05-12-2017, 06:04 PM
Is it cool that James Harden is easily my least favorite NBA player?

Hustla23
05-12-2017, 06:14 PM
I don't really know what the Rockets need at this point to take the next step. You'd imagine that with Harden being the primary ball handler it would be a good idea to surround him with guys that can play complimentary roles like defending and shooting. To that end Beverley, Ariza, Anderson, and Capela are almost ideal role players to play alongside Harden. So I'm not sure how much more than they realistically improve.

Maybe getting another ball handler/playmaker would help to ease the pressure off Harden?

Not sure who is out there that fits that bill.

Saddletramp
05-12-2017, 06:14 PM
Is it cool that James Harden is easily my least favorite NBA player?

Totally cool, bro. 😎😎😎😎

Quinnsanity
05-12-2017, 06:41 PM
ok, it may not be the only reason, but the nba is a better sport for me to enjoy when the focus isn't on watching 30% of long shots going in, 70% being missed. there are actually only a few nba players who should have the green light to shoot threes, modern stats be damn, BC they just aren't efficient. it's ugly, stagnant basketball, over emphasized by mikey

people talk about the triangle. well can it be as simple as teaching players to cut and constantly move without the ball instead of stand in a spot and wait for a 3 pt shot?

and yes, the Warriors shoot 3s, but their skills set is higher and they do play off the ball.

overall, nba basketball is better off for the spurs to win this series, showing that this star driven and marketed sport can be won without the number one star of the team, coached by someone who developes players but not gimmicks

rant over

I just sort of skimmed, then I saw what IndyRealist bolded and jesus we might have a winner for worst post of the year. This is inexcusably stupid. That is objective. What this dude is saying is factually incorrect.

The average NBA three-point shot went in 35.8% of the time this year. The average NBA two-point shot went in 50.3% of the time. Three is a bigger number than two. If you multiply the average three-point percentage by the degree to which three is a bigger number than two (1.5), you get 53.7%. That is the percentage of two-pointers that would need to go in to make them as efficient as three-pointers at the current rate in which they are going in. This is not rocket science. It is basic math that literally every NBA team now abides by.


Most, including me, were pegging them to be a borderline, fight for the playoff team. They did very well imo

This. Why are we acting like losing a second round series in six is a bad outcome for a team that was expected to win 41.5 games according to Vegas? The Rockets have some actual momentum right now. If they get a little bit deeper, do a better job of resting Harden during the regular season and maybe have some small-sample variance luck, they're basically a Warriors injury away from having a legit shot at a title. This is a team that was the No. 8 seed last year and saw their offseason moves pretty widely panned. The Rockets had a very nice season relative to what we expected, and they were the only team smart enough to realize that you can't beat Golden State without an insane amount of luck. They built their team around that luck, giving themselves a 1% chance at beating the juggernaut when everyone else was stuck at 0%.

Quinnsanity
05-12-2017, 06:50 PM
I don't really know what the Rockets need at this point to take the next step. You'd imagine that with Harden being the primary ball handler it would be a good idea to surround him with guys that can play complimentary roles like defending and shooting. To that end Beverley, Ariza, Anderson, and Capela are almost ideal role players to play alongside Harden. So I'm not sure how much more than they realistically improve.

Maybe getting another ball handler/playmaker would help to ease the pressure off Harden?

Not sure who is out there that fits that bill.

I'm just gonna throw this out there, but the Rockets are set to have something like $12 million in cap space already this summer (that number is inexact). The stretch provision could lower Ryan Anderson's salary from around $19.5 million to around $8.5 million. That gets them to $23 million in space. Could they get into the Paul Millsap derby with that much money? I don't know what his priorities are. If he wants to win a ring, Houston is by far his best shot. But he'd be leaving a lot of money on the table. That's basically a 4-year deal at around $100 million. His five-year deal in Atlanta, if they offered the full max, would be around $200 million. So yea, it'd be a big sacrifice, but suddenly that Rockets team is a hell of a lot more interesting. If you swap out Ryan Anderson for Paul Millsap defensively you're going from the 17th best defense into the top-10 somewhere. You get a bit more ball-handling and creation and he can still shoot. If you have like the 3rd best offense and the 8th best defense you're right in the thick of things. If you have the 2nd best offense and the 17th best defense, things can go wrong pretty quickly if some variance swings the other way.

I think the likeliest outcome involves Houston sitting on their cap space until 2018, when they'd have max space and only lose Ariza and Lou Williams. I think Morey still wants that second star (which Millsap is, just not to the degree that Paul George and Boogie are).

I'm just not sure that's what I would do. Their advantage over the league as far as three-point shooting goes is going to get progressively smaller each year as everyone else catches up. This core is older than you'd think, and it's not like beating Golden State is going to get any easier. I kind of think that if you can get Millsap now, you just do it and try to win your title over the next 2-3 years rather than wait on the uncertainty of 2018.

nicnac
05-12-2017, 07:51 PM
again. stats be damn. the nba is a dreadful league to watch bc of the three point focus. in my opinion. the post is not about WHY they lost. it's about my belief on what good basketball is and what it looks like

it is not this gimmick basketball

Mikes stats has won him what exactly?
he has coached kobe, melo, harden, lin, it's the philosophy that I am mentioning. don't care if you understand the post or agree with it

non fundamental jocking is bad basketball so here is your second worst post of the yr, righteous keeper of posts

nicnac
05-12-2017, 07:58 PM
one thing that some of you might not see is the long term trend set by this stat driven. 3 pt shooting mindset

I am very familiar with one of the top high School programs in the nation. they have developed several nba players. which game would they rather play. the rockets or the spurs. definately the rockets for sure bc of the stats, even though it doesn't win ..


STATS B DAMN!!!!

JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2017, 08:19 PM
I feel like as well as the Rockets did this season, and kudos to them, this series proved both that 'Antoni shouldn't win COY, and Harden shouldn't win MVP, because at the end of the day, the system and level of play wasn't enough to beat a team who was without their MVP (Leonard) or their starting point guard (Parker).

With Parker out, the Rockets should have been able to beat the Spurs, and without Leonard in the last game, there is no reason they should have lost that, and certainly no reason they should have been trounced.

Yes, Pop is the greatest coach in the league. Yes, the Spurs are a 60-win team, but they are a 60-win team without it's MVP, which really just makes them the Thunder -KD.

And what's more, they beat the Rockets by relying on a low-post scorer (LMA) who took 26 shots inside the arc, and the Spurs 3pt shooting that games was UNDER .300 and they still won by almost 40 points!

If you had said going into this game that the Spurs would shoot under .300 and take 74 shots inside paint, would you assume they'd be able to win by nearly 40 points?


Credit to 'Antoni, who seemed to give Pop fits early in the series (with Pop having guys stay out on the shooters and letting Harden abuse them by driving the lane), but once he made adjustments, the system was shut down, and it was shut down with out Parker and Leonard on the court.

Gimmick ball? That is EXACTLY what this is. It reminds me of when Fratello and Wilkens (that latter of whom was actually an amazing coach) took over each other's respective teams (Hawks and Cavs) and because they lacked talent, both coaches just slowed the game down and tried taking up as much of the shot clock as possible. Why? Because it kept the score low, and if you kept the score low, and reduced the number of possessions, yu reduced the size of the potential lead. So where a lead might be 12 points with 110 possessions, it would only be 8 with 90 possessions or less. That is a single digit lead that you can overcome. They both did this because their teams lacked the talent to compete and it work in that both teams won more games, but at the end, they weren't actually any closer to competing for a title and they both lost to better teams. They just lost by smaller margins.


I don't blame 'Antoni for the approach... it was his team's best chance, but at the end of the day, it's not a good system.

The Warriors use a combination of what 'Antoni does, but also a lot of what works in the triangle, and what works with Pop's system: spot up shooter, moving without the ball, and making extra passes. Houstons doesn't some of this, yes, but the system is more polarized.

Quinnsanity
05-12-2017, 09:54 PM
I feel like as well as the Rockets did this season, and kudos to them, this series proved both that 'Antoni shouldn't win COY, and Harden shouldn't win MVP, because at the end of the day, the system and level of play wasn't enough to beat a team who was without their MVP (Leonard) or their starting point guard (Parker).

With Parker out, the Rockets should have been able to beat the Spurs, and without Leonard in the last game, there is no reason they should have lost that, and certainly no reason they should have been trounced.

Yes, Pop is the greatest coach in the league. Yes, the Spurs are a 60-win team, but they are a 60-win team without it's MVP, which really just makes them the Thunder -KD.

And what's more, they beat the Rockets by relying on a low-post scorer (LMA) who took 26 shots inside the arc, and the Spurs 3pt shooting that games was UNDER .300 and they still won by almost 40 points!

If you had said going into this game that the Spurs would shoot under .300 and take 74 shots inside paint, would you assume they'd be able to win by nearly 40 points?


Credit to 'Antoni, who seemed to give Pop fits early in the series (with Pop having guys stay out on the shooters and letting Harden abuse them by driving the lane), but once he made adjustments, the system was shut down, and it was shut down with out Parker and Leonard on the court.

Gimmick ball? That is EXACTLY what this is. It reminds me of when Fratello and Wilkens (that latter of whom was actually an amazing coach) took over each other's respective teams (Hawks and Cavs) and because they lacked talent, both coaches just slowed the game down and tried taking up as much of the shot clock as possible. Why? Because it kept the score low, and if you kept the score low, and reduced the number of possessions, yu reduced the size of the potential lead. So where a lead might be 12 points with 110 possessions, it would only be 8 with 90 possessions or less. That is a single digit lead that you can overcome. They both did this because their teams lacked the talent to compete and it work in that both teams won more games, but at the end, they weren't actually any closer to competing for a title and they both lost to better teams. They just lost by smaller margins.


I don't blame 'Antoni for the approach... it was his team's best chance, but at the end of the day, it's not a good system.

The Warriors use a combination of what 'Antoni does, but also a lot of what works in the triangle, and what works with Pop's system: spot up shooter, moving without the ball, and making extra passes. Houstons doesn't some of this, yes, but the system is more polarized.

The Warriors, even pre-KD, also had a top-2 player in the league and two others in the top-15. The love their system gets is well deserved, it's beautiful basketball. But let's not bring the Warriors into this discussion as if the two are in remotely the same sphere of talent.

Look at the roster Houston has. What is the alternative here? What is the better system they could be running? This is the best use of the talent that they have, and if you're arguing that they should have better talent, look at how bad they were a year ago and how that affected them in FA. They were meeting with ****ing Kent Bazemore on the first night of free agency and couldn't even reel him in. They had to settle for Anderson and Gordon. They didn't even get a meeting with Durant. Horford may have spoken with them but they weren't a finalist (Boston, Washington and Atlanta were). Who were the better players available to them? What were the roster mistakes that they made that could have led to a better brand of basketball if changed?

nicnac
05-13-2017, 12:10 AM
thank you. you said it much better than me.

Jets012
05-13-2017, 01:20 AM
I agree with your post entirely except I want to point out that in 92-93 Jordan had a 34.7 Usage and a 38.0 playoff usage ;)

lol well Jordan was a whole other animal lol

Heediot
05-13-2017, 06:12 AM
Mike D's offensive system is fine and can win you a ship with it. You can win a ship in various ways, even iso ball. It's all about clutch shot making and closing out series and games in the playoffs. The problem with Houston is, I don't think Harden is that guy to close out a series deep in the playoffs. He needs more help, and the rockets just need to add a little more flexibility when defenses figure them out from game to game. With GS, they are a ball movement team, but a guy like Curry can still iso and hit big shots if needed. Yeah he struggle in the finals last year and was somewhat injured, but I've seen the guy play big in iso situations in critical moments too. KD can also win you games if GS needs to change their style of play. There doesn't need to be either or views on the game, saying we gotta play this way to win or this is the new way to win. You can get it done in multiple ways, it's all about execution and heart. Have an identity but also be versatile and it'll be harder for the opposition to shut you down. Know when to change gears.

Vinylman
05-13-2017, 12:30 PM
Dandummies team lost again in the playoffs?

SHOCKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Teams that sacrifice D for O never win in the playoffs...

If they don't add pieces they will definitely regress next year.

nicnac
05-13-2017, 01:23 PM
I also am not in agreement with the excuse for the rocket team. each coach wants players for their system. I truly believe that this is diantonis best team ever for HIS system. once again, there are not many 3 pt shooters of quality. he has quite a few that rate favorably with the best. this is a hand picked diantoni team that HE believed that he could coach to a final. he doesn't want bigs that need the ball. these players fit his GIMMICK of 3 pt dominance

it just doesn't win when it counts

JasonJohnHorn
05-13-2017, 04:52 PM
Look at the roster Houston has. What is the alternative here?

I agree with that a 100%. That's why I said I don't blame him for the approach.

That said... his teams still suck on D. And yes, what are you going to do with Harden playing D? Right? But while he got the most wins out of this group that you could get, he hasn't really made them better in terms of a playoff team. I mean... they got to the conference finals with a very similar roster under McHale.

Had he gotten them to buy into a defensive system as well, I'd be more inclined to give more props. As it is, I feel like he and Harden got lucky and this is more of an instance where you bring in a guy like 'Antoni to mix things up, give the team a fresh start, and start building something rather than blowing the team up. That might draw from free agents in. But they will hit a wall, and when they do, Houston will fire 'Antoni and bring in a closer, like Detroit did with Larry Brown.

Kudos to the team, the players, the coach. They had a great year. The system they are using suited them, but it is not a good system as a rule and can be picked apart by great coaches.

Firefistus
05-15-2017, 02:13 PM
Someone has said that D'Antoni's system is fine and can win a championship, and I would have to respectfully disagree, and here's my rebuttal.

The most offensively minded team I have ever seen in my lifetime was far and away the Phoenix Suns, I do believe it was 2008? (ish).

In the playoffs they averaged a 120 ppg.....AVERAGE. they were quite frankly a much better offensive team than the Rockets currently are, and I remember Spurs beating them that series. Then I do believe it was Dallas the year after that, but it was always to teams that were better defensively. There was one series where the games had 140 points scored for both teams, but no championship was won.

We forget that D'Antoni had GREAT teams back then with Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, and Steve Nash.

To me that's the epitome of Offense over Defense, and they never won a title.

I like D'Antoni's offensive prowess, and I think it was a brilliant move to move Harden to the point. And I think they will continue to get better if they keep the majority of the team together and build a cohesion. But I don't think it will ever win a championship as it never has in the past for D'Antoni, even with much better teams.