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WaDe03
05-09-2017, 07:27 PM
So I got in to a debate today regarding these two players, I thought it was pretty common knowledge to the world that Wade is the better player and all time player but apparently some don't believe that's the case so I figured I would ask the NBA Forum.

I will say this debate was with some Bulls fans so there's that.

The question, what's the better player in their peak/primes or just in general and where do you rank these guys all time?

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 07:29 PM
I'm going with Wade obviously but there's bias on both sides of the debate so I wanted some unbiased perspective. If I'm wrong help me understand.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 07:31 PM
Oh and to answer all time, I have Wade in around the 17-20 range and Pippen around 24-30.

FlashBolt
05-09-2017, 08:06 PM
Peak: Wade
Overall: Wade
Better second option: Pippen
Better defender: Pippen

Two different roles. Pippen was an amazing 2nd option player who would have just been a very good 1st option player whereas Wade was an excellent 1st option player who wouldn't be able to play the 2nd option as well.

I have Wade in the 20-25 area while Pippen can go anywhere from 25-30 IMO. Don't have time to make a list but I think it's around that area anyways.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 08:12 PM
Peak: Wade
Overall: Wade
Better second option: Pippen
Better defender: Pippen

Two different roles. Pippen was an amazing 2nd option player who would have just been a very good 1st option player whereas Wade was an excellent 1st option player who wouldn't be able to play the 2nd option as well.

I have Wade in the 20-25 area while Pippen can go anywhere from 25-30 IMO. Don't have time to make a list but I think it's around that area anyways.

If Wade were a 2nd option during his prime would we view the whole 2nd option thing differently? You put prime Wade with prime LeBron for multiple years, do they lose a championship?

Dade County
05-09-2017, 08:28 PM
If Wade were a 2nd option during his prime would we view the whole 2nd option thing differently? You put prime Wade with prime LeBron for multiple years, do they lose a championship?

They still lose because Lbj would be following orders lol

FlashBolt
05-09-2017, 08:28 PM
If Wade were a 2nd option during his prime would we view the whole 2nd option thing differently? You put prime Wade with prime LeBron for multiple years, do they lose a championship?

I don't think they would have unleashed their full potential with both having to share the ball and choose when to dominate. Like with Irving - he's basically the SG of the team but he can shoot the ball. Wade can't really shoot so he'll need the ball to attack the basket. He was a good defender but Pippen is probably right up there as the greatest perimeter and overall defender. He wouldn't take away from LeBron doing his thing - which is why that MJ+Pippen pairing worked so well. The way I see it, would a LeBron+Pippen defense alone scare the crap out of any team? Yup. Would LeBron+Wade dominate? Yup. But we'll never see just how good they really become. Like, do we know how good Steph/KD would have been if they hadn't been on separate teams? We would never have seen that amazing season Steph had a year ago nor KD's MVP season about three years ago.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 08:41 PM
I don't think they would have unleashed their full potential with both having to share the ball and choose when to dominate. Like with Irving - he's basically the SG of the team but he can shoot the ball. Wade can't really shoot so he'll need the ball to attack the basket. He was a good defender but Pippen is probably right up there as the greatest perimeter and overall defender. He wouldn't take away from LeBron doing his thing - which is why that MJ+Pippen pairing worked so well. The way I see it, would a LeBron+Pippen defense alone scare the crap out of any team? Yup. Would LeBron+Wade dominate? Yup. But we'll never see just how good they really become. Like, do we know how good Steph/KD would have been if they hadn't been on separate teams? We would never have seen that amazing season Steph had a year ago nor KD's MVP season about three years ago.

I see your point. I just can't help but imagine how deadly both prime LeBron and prime Wade would be on the fast break turning defense to offense or just leaking out on rebounds. Weren't they one of the best fast break teams ever as is? Wade may not be as good of a shooter as Irving but I remember them saying he was the best slasher in the NBA which worked perfect next to LeBron with shooters at the other positions.

Pippen is the better defender but Wade was no slouch their either. I can't help but think you get Wade at 25-5-7 on better than 50% shooting if you have him and LeBron in their primes and you probably have LeBron at 28-8-8 at worst ok close to 60% shooting. For all the talk of them not being a good fit they were efficient as hell and had their best shooting years next to each other and that's with Wade playing on 1 leg the last 2 years.

warfelg
05-09-2017, 08:47 PM
Pippen. Easily IMO.

GREATNESS ONE
05-09-2017, 08:59 PM
I'll take Scottie too.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 09:13 PM
I'll take Scottie too.

Based on what? Wade was clearly the superior player when they were at their best.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 09:14 PM
Pippen. Easily IMO.

Easily? Lol if anything Pippen is fighting an uphill battle here, why do you think he's better?

warfelg
05-09-2017, 09:17 PM
Better defender, longer peak, very underrated as a scorer, very good passer.

Wade was a good scorer who could not be a trainwreck on defense.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 09:30 PM
Better defender, longer peak, very underrated as a scorer, very good passer.

Wade was a good scorer who could not be a trainwreck on defense.

Wades a much better offensive player and can definitely hold his own defensively. Better passer, scorer, best shot blocking guard ever, led his team to a championship with numbers Pippen would never be able to match. Their peaks aren't even close really, Wade was far better there. The only thing Pippen has on Wade is defense.

Mave1002
05-09-2017, 09:54 PM
Let's just change the title to Wade is definitely better than Pippen allllll time

Jamiecballer
05-09-2017, 10:09 PM
I'd go scottie here but it's fairly close. Probably wouldn't be if it were not for hwakth

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 10:31 PM
Let's just change the title to Wade is definitely better than Pippen allllll time

Yes lol, I don't reallly see a legit debate otherwise.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 10:32 PM
I'd go scottie here but it's fairly close. Probably wouldn't be if it were not for hwakth

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Based on what though?

hwakth?

FlashBolt
05-09-2017, 11:08 PM
I think they're busting your balls at this point. I can't imagine anyone really thinking Scottie was a better player at their peak. Wade had a better peak and sustained it longer. Longevity? LMAO, on what grounds? Scottie was finished and was known as the old veteran guy who was just there to defend. He's only got 2-3 years over Wade and those 2-3 years weren't particularly great seasons.

breakbad
05-09-2017, 11:14 PM
There are like five hundred billion factors that go into how people decide how good a player's career was. Greater players get hurt which means they had worse careers. Players get put in nightmare situations and never reach the greatness their talent would have suggested they would. And players get put in amazing situations and become known as some of the greatest ever because of how good their situation was.

With all that said, the only real way I would be willing to debate one player vs another is if they were rookies and you had to pick one; who would you pick? Take into account the player they were, not their "career". These two were completely different players and who I'd pick would depend on the situation, obviously. The Mj and Scottie duo is the best known and the one every other all time great duo gets compared to, for a reason. I think Wade would thrive much more in the MJ role than Scottie, and Scottie would thrive more in the Scottie role, again obviously, lol.

If my roster is bare, you start off with the guy that can carry your team Offensively. If you already have a guy like that, you would much rather have a guy who can be a number 2 Offensively and a number 1 in other areas than a second guy who can dominant on Offence.

So the answer is Wade, even though he may not be the better pure Basketball player.

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 11:20 PM
I think they're busting your balls at this point. I can't imagine anyone really thinking Scottie was a better player at their peak. Wade had a better peak and sustained it longer. Longevity? LMAO, on what grounds? Scottie was finished and was known as the old veteran guy who was just there to defend. He's only got 2-3 years over Wade and those 2-3 years weren't particularly great seasons.

That's got to be it, no other explanation lol.

JordansBulls
05-09-2017, 11:22 PM
Peak: Wade
Overall: Wade
Better second option: Pippen
Better defender: Pippen

Two different roles. Pippen was an amazing 2nd option player who would have just been a very good 1st option player whereas Wade was an excellent 1st option player who wouldn't be able to play the 2nd option as well.

I have Wade in the 20-25 area while Pippen can go anywhere from 25-30 IMO. Don't have time to make a list but I think it's around that area anyways.

I agree mainly with this but I would say Wade is top 15-20. Also the 2nd option Wade would be better with a dominant big such as a Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt compared to if Pippen was the 2nd option with them. Pippen may be better with another Wing Type player as the #2 option.

FlashBolt
05-09-2017, 11:24 PM
I agree mainly with this but I would say Wade is top 15-20. Also the 2nd option Wade would be better with a dominant big such as a Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt compared to if Pippen was the 2nd option with them. Pippen may be better with another Wing Type player as the #2 option.

That's true - you're right. Centers are less ball dominant so it would make sense, hence, Kobe+Shaq.

JasonJohnHorn
05-09-2017, 11:41 PM
Here's the thing: Wade had a chance to shine on his own for a few years. Pippen only had one season. So when you look at their per-game averages, Pippen's aren't as impressive, at least with respect to peak years. Why is that? Because he was playing next to Jordan for all those years.

Wade picked up Shaq when Shaq was done beasting. He still had a lot left in the tank, but he was ready to let somebody else shoulder the weight. Then he was on his own a couple of years before he let LBJ shoulder the weight of being the franchise player.

Had Wade always been playing beside LBJ, he would have never had that 30ppg season and led the league in scoring, but he would have been every bit as good.

That was Pippen's issue. Had he not played alongside Jordan all those years, he would have been posting some 25 ppg seasons and would have been more of a scorer, because he would have had to be.


I will gladly concede to anybody who says that Wade it the better scorer, but I wouldn't agree that it is by much of a margin. Yes, Wade has higher per-game averages, but he took more shots. Their 2pt% is about the same, and their FT% isn't far apart, and their 3pt% is about even, and given that Pippen grew up in an era where the 3-ball wasn't as big a part of the game, and where it was for Wade, I'd say that deficiency weighed more on Wade. But Wade was certainly better at creating shots and is just really good at attacking the rim. Pippen had those skills, but not to the degree that Wade did.


But there is more to basketball than scoring.

Pippen was by far a superior defender. Light years ahead of Wade. So... that is the reason I'd put Pippen above Wade.

Statistically, there are the rebounds (slightly unfair comparison because Wade was a PG/SG, and Pippen was a SF most of his career), but on the flip side, Wade's assists per game is only marginally higher than Pippen (5.8 per36 to 5.4 pr36). Now... given that Wade actually played PG his first two or three years and was the primary ball handle, even when he was a SG until LBJ came in, that seems pretty weak, especially given that Pippen was always the secondary ball handler. So... while you would expect Pippen to have higher rebounding numbers based on their respective positions, Wade should by that rationale be the better play maker, but he's not.

Scoring: Wade (clear but not huge difference)
Defence: Pippen (by a long shot)
Rebounding: Pippen (by a long shot)
Passing: Tie, or negligible difference.

Steals and blocks are apart of defense, but they can also be misleading, because guys who gamble (which Wade does) get a lot of steals, which aren't as impressive as guys who guard the passing lane or force turnovers (which is primarily how Pippen got his), but that said, Pippen got more steals per36 than Wade, so.... That said, the per36 averages see a marginal difference in the two.

Pippen had slightly fewer turnovers, Wade had slightly fewer fouls. That kind of cancels out their negative stats.


So yeah... primarily due to his historically amazing defense, I'd give this to Pippen.

And keep in mind, this is coming from a fan of the original Bad Boys. Nobody love watching the Pistons' Rodman punch Pippen in the face more than me.

FlashBolt
05-09-2017, 11:57 PM
Here's the thing: Wade had a chance to shine on his own for a few years. Pippen only had one season. So when you look at their per-game averages, Pippen's aren't as impressive, at least with respect to peak years. Why is that? Because he was playing next to Jordan for all those years.

Wade picked up Shaq when Shaq was done beasting. He still had a lot left in the tank, but he was ready to let somebody else shoulder the weight. Then he was on his own a couple of years before he let LBJ shoulder the weight of being the franchise player.

Had Wade always been playing beside LBJ, he would have never had that 30ppg season and led the league in scoring, but he would have been every bit as good.

That was Pippen's issue. Had he not played alongside Jordan all those years, he would have been posting some 25 ppg seasons and would have been more of a scorer, because he would have had to be.


I will gladly concede to anybody who says that Wade it the better scorer, but I wouldn't agree that it is by much of a margin. Yes, Wade has higher per-game averages, but he took more shots. Their 2pt% is about the same, and their FT% isn't far apart, and their 3pt% is about even, and given that Pippen grew up in an era where the 3-ball wasn't as big a part of the game, and where it was for Wade, I'd say that deficiency weighed more on Wade. But Wade was certainly better at creating shots and is just really good at attacking the rim. Pippen had those skills, but not to the degree that Wade did.


But there is more to basketball than scoring.

Pippen was by far a superior defender. Light years ahead of Wade. So... that is the reason I'd put Pippen above Wade.

Statistically, there are the rebounds (slightly unfair comparison because Wade was a PG/SG, and Pippen was a SF most of his career), but on the flip side, Wade's assists per game is only marginally higher than Pippen (5.8 per36 to 5.4 pr36). Now... given that Wade actually played PG his first two or three years and was the primary ball handle, even when he was a SG until LBJ came in, that seems pretty weak, especially given that Pippen was always the secondary ball handler. So... while you would expect Pippen to have higher rebounding numbers based on their respective positions, Wade should by that rationale be the better play maker, but he's not.

Scoring: Wade (clear but not huge difference)
Defence: Pippen (by a long shot)
Rebounding: Pippen (by a long shot)
Passing: Tie, or negligible difference.

Steals and blocks are apart of defense, but they can also be misleading, because guys who gamble (which Wade does) get a lot of steals, which aren't as impressive as guys who guard the passing lane or force turnovers (which is primarily how Pippen got his), but that said, Pippen got more steals per36 than Wade, so.... That said, the per36 averages see a marginal difference in the two.

Pippen had slightly fewer turnovers, Wade had slightly fewer fouls. That kind of cancels out their negative stats.


So yeah... primarily due to his historically amazing defense, I'd give this to Pippen.

And keep in mind, this is coming from a fan of the original Bad Boys. Nobody love watching the Pistons' Rodman punch Pippen in the face more than me.

Too bad there wasn't a season in which Pippen could have demonstrated this... Oh wait, there was! Year 93-94, Pippen averaged 22 points. Year after, less than a point differential. So there is evidence and it doesn't exactly prove Pippen would have been as good as you said he could have been. Wade was far more than what numbers showed despite his pretty impressive statistical averages during his prime. Dude was consistently ranked highly in PER every year. Wade was the better player. I'll build over Wade before Pippen.

lol, please
05-10-2017, 12:39 AM
I have no problem with peeps who think Wade is the better player p4p, but give me Pippen if I am building a team, easily.

LA_Raiders
05-10-2017, 01:51 AM
It is close. I guess is depending on the era, now a days there is no defense so; all stars are padding stats. I go for Pippen, he was a great player back then, he would be a super star now.

LOb0
05-10-2017, 02:16 AM
Wade. Pippen was great but Wade at his peak could win you a title and close games with the best of them.

valade16
05-10-2017, 02:29 AM
If we're talking both players at their absolute peak? I take Wade easily.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 10:31 AM
I have no problem with peeps who think Wade is the better player p4p, but give me Pippen if I am building a team, easily.

You guys are throwing around the word easily like Wade isn't clearly the better player, he is. Can you explain why this is so easy?

valade16
05-10-2017, 10:50 AM
You guys are throwing around the word easily like Wade isn't clearly the better player, he is. Can you explain why this is so easy?

Wade was certainly a good defender in his prime (even made some all-D teams), scored a boatload more points on better efficiency and was nearly as good a passer.

Pippen cannot carry an offense, it's why the Bulls went from 2nd in Ortg with MJ to 14th with just Pippen (and back to 1st when MJ returned).

If you want an alpha it's not even close, Wade.

FlashBolt
05-10-2017, 11:12 AM
Wade's defense is a bit overrated. He was a very good defender for a few years but it was short. His injuries really made him pick and choose later on.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 11:13 AM
Wade was certainly a good defender in his prime (even made some all-D teams), scored a boatload more points on better efficiency and was nearly as good a passer.

Pippen cannot carry an offense, it's why the Bulls went from 2nd in Ortg with MJ to 14th with just Pippen (and back to 1st when MJ returned).

If you want an alpha it's not even close, Wade.

Exactly which is why I don't understand people are saying Pippen easily lol. You're starting a team you take the guy who took his team to a championship as a number one option and just absolutely dominated the finals. Pippen never did anything close to 06 Wade in his career.

Let's put that in context, a 3rd year player in the league carried his team to a championship and had arguably the best Finals performance ever. See below:

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

This is basically like Wiggins or Jabari Parker carrying their teams to a championship this year in their 3rd years or Buddy Hield doing this next year if you want to go by age. Could you imagine the hype those guys would be getting right now if they did that? They would be saying they're going to be the next MJ or LeBron. Wade was taking this league over until his multiple serious injuries in 06-07. Pippen was never the best player in the league not even counting Jordan. I'm not sure he was ever top 5

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 11:15 AM
Wade's defense is a bit overrated. He was a very good defender for a few years but it was short. His injuries really made him pick and choose later on.

May be overrated by some but I feel it's underrated by most. He should have more all defense teams for sure. He still shows signs of it in big moments where he'll just lock his guy up or get clutch blocks/steals.

europagnpilgrim
05-10-2017, 11:20 AM
To build a team from scratch, I am taking Wade

that's how you truly know who the better dominant player is, always get the engine first and then the tires etc. later

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 11:22 AM
To build a team from scratch, I am taking Wade

that's how you truly know who the better dominant player is, always get the engine first and then the tires etc. later

It's really that simple.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 11:33 AM
Too bad there wasn't a season in which Pippen could have demonstrated this... Oh wait, there was! Year 93-94, Pippen averaged 22 points. Year after, less than a point differential. So there is evidence and it doesn't exactly prove Pippen would have been as good as you said he could have been. Wade was far more than what numbers showed despite his pretty impressive statistical averages during his prime. Dude was consistently ranked highly in PER every year. Wade was the better player. I'll build over Wade before Pippen.

Pippen had one year... yes... one... where Toni was brought in and Jackson was working him into the system, while also making room for a 20ppg scorer in Harper and giving Grant more time with the ball (which Grant had been asking for).

Pippen never pushed his scoring, because the skill set he developed complimented Jordan's. Basing his potential off of one year is not fair.

Wade had 6 years solo to develop that game. Comparing the accumulation of six seasons to one anomalous season is not fair, and you know that.

Alongside LBJ, Wade himself only averages in the high teens and low 20's the last three seasons. Which is exactly what Pippen was doing from 91-98: when they were winning championships. That is a much large sample size.

As I said, I would agree that Wade is a better scorer, and if you want to build a team on that alone, that is your prerogative.

I'd take Pippen because he is a better rebounder, as good a play maker (if not better), a far superior defender, and nearly as good a scorer.

We can agree to disagree on the importance of offence and defence. That's fine. But if you want to compare Wade's scoring average on the basis of six season as the primary scorer, to Pippen after developing a skill set to compliment Jordan when he went solo for one year when PJax was bringing new talent/scorers into the system, you are making an unfair comparison and frankly, in bad faith.

Let's compare Wade's championship averages next to prime LBJ to Pippens championship averages next to prime Jordan and see where they stand: about even with a slight advantage going to Wade. Which is what I said.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 11:38 AM
Pippen had one year... yes... one... where Toni was brought in and Jackson was working him into the system, while also making room for a 20ppg scorer in Harper and giving Grant more time with the ball (which Grant had been asking for).

Pippen never pushed his scoring, because the skill set he developed complimented Jordan's. Basing his potential off of one year is not fair.

Wade had 6 years solo to develop that game. Comparing the accumulation of six seasons to one anomalous season is not fair, and you know that.

Alongside LBJ, Wade himself only averages in the high teens and low 20's the last three seasons. Which is exactly what Pippen was doing from 91-98: when they were winning championships. That is a much large sample size.

As I said, I would agree that Wade is a better scorer, and if you want to build a team on that alone, that is your prerogative.

I'd take Pippen because he is a better rebounder, as good a play maker (if not better), a far superior defender, and nearly as good a scorer.

We can agree to disagree on the importance of offence and defence. That's fine. But if you want to compare Wade's scoring average on the basis of six season as the primary scorer, to Pippen after developing a skill set to compliment Jordan when he went solo for one year when PJax was bringing new talent/scorers into the system, you are making an unfair comparison and frankly, in bad faith.

Let's compare Wade's championship averages next to prime LBJ to Pippens championship averages next to prime Jordan and see where they stand: about even with a slight advantage going to Wade. Which is what I said.

It's not fair to compare a past prime Wade alongside LBJ to an in Prime Pippen next to Jordan either. Their first year together was the only prime year LeBron and Wade had together and it's better than any year Pippen had next to Jordan and as you said a past prime Wade in their championship runs has a slight edge on an in prime Pippen when they were 2nd options.

Heediot
05-10-2017, 11:41 AM
Wade.

Pippen is nice complementary player, and depending on the team makeup he may be a better choice as the 2nd option.

FlashBolt
05-10-2017, 11:50 AM
Pippen had one year... yes... one... where Toni was brought in and Jackson was working him into the system, while also making room for a 20ppg scorer in Harper and giving Grant more time with the ball (which Grant had been asking for).

Pippen never pushed his scoring, because the skill set he developed complimented Jordan's. Basing his potential off of one year is not fair.

Wade had 6 years solo to develop that game. Comparing the accumulation of six seasons to one anomalous season is not fair, and you know that.

Alongside LBJ, Wade himself only averages in the high teens and low 20's the last three seasons. Which is exactly what Pippen was doing from 91-98: when they were winning championships. That is a much large sample size.

As I said, I would agree that Wade is a better scorer, and if you want to build a team on that alone, that is your prerogative.

I'd take Pippen because he is a better rebounder, as good a play maker (if not better), a far superior defender, and nearly as good a scorer.

We can agree to disagree on the importance of offence and defence. That's fine. But if you want to compare Wade's scoring average on the basis of six season as the primary scorer, to Pippen after developing a skill set to compliment Jordan when he went solo for one year when PJax was bringing new talent/scorers into the system, you are making an unfair comparison and frankly, in bad faith.

Let's compare Wade's championship averages next to prime LBJ to Pippens championship averages next to prime Jordan and see where they stand: about even with a slight advantage going to Wade. Which is what I said.

Couldn't develop his game? Are you serious, dude? He's supposedly better than Wade but after six years and three championships, he couldn't develop his game to score more than ONE point the season after? No, because some players DON'T become better players. You're speaking about production but in terms of BEING a player, Wade's ceiling was higher.

KnicksorBust
05-10-2017, 11:52 AM
That's true - you're right. Centers are less ball dominant so it would make sense, hence, Kobe+Shaq.

or... Wade + Shaq? Why wouldn't you use that analogy? :laugh:


Here's the thing: Wade had a chance to shine on his own for a few years. Pippen only had one season. So when you look at their per-game averages, Pippen's aren't as impressive, at least with respect to peak years. Why is that? Because he was playing next to Jordan for all those years.

Wade picked up Shaq when Shaq was done beasting. He still had a lot left in the tank, but he was ready to let somebody else shoulder the weight. Then he was on his own a couple of years before he let LBJ shoulder the weight of being the franchise player.

Had Wade always been playing beside LBJ, he would have never had that 30ppg season and led the league in scoring, but he would have been every bit as good.

That was Pippen's issue. Had he not played alongside Jordan all those years, he would have been posting some 25 ppg seasons and would have been more of a scorer, because he would have had to be.


I will gladly concede to anybody who says that Wade it the better scorer, but I wouldn't agree that it is by much of a margin. Yes, Wade has higher per-game averages, but he took more shots. Their 2pt% is about the same, and their FT% isn't far apart, and their 3pt% is about even, and given that Pippen grew up in an era where the 3-ball wasn't as big a part of the game, and where it was for Wade, I'd say that deficiency weighed more on Wade. But Wade was certainly better at creating shots and is just really good at attacking the rim. Pippen had those skills, but not to the degree that Wade did.


But there is more to basketball than scoring.

Pippen was by far a superior defender. Light years ahead of Wade. So... that is the reason I'd put Pippen above Wade.

Statistically, there are the rebounds (slightly unfair comparison because Wade was a PG/SG, and Pippen was a SF most of his career), but on the flip side, Wade's assists per game is only marginally higher than Pippen (5.8 per36 to 5.4 pr36). Now... given that Wade actually played PG his first two or three years and was the primary ball handle, even when he was a SG until LBJ came in, that seems pretty weak, especially given that Pippen was always the secondary ball handler. So... while you would expect Pippen to have higher rebounding numbers based on their respective positions, Wade should by that rationale be the better play maker, but he's not.

Scoring: Wade (clear but not huge difference)
Defence: Pippen (by a long shot)
Rebounding: Pippen (by a long shot)
Passing: Tie, or negligible difference.

Steals and blocks are apart of defense, but they can also be misleading, because guys who gamble (which Wade does) get a lot of steals, which aren't as impressive as guys who guard the passing lane or force turnovers (which is primarily how Pippen got his), but that said, Pippen got more steals per36 than Wade, so.... That said, the per36 averages see a marginal difference in the two.

Pippen had slightly fewer turnovers, Wade had slightly fewer fouls. That kind of cancels out their negative stats.


So yeah... primarily due to his historically amazing defense, I'd give this to Pippen.

And keep in mind, this is coming from a fan of the original Bad Boys. Nobody love watching the Pistons' Rodman punch Pippen in the face more than me.

The impact of Wade's scoring is being devalued here. In a skill by skill comparison even Anthony Davis may be able to check off more than Shaq but no one is going to take AD over the Diesel.


It's not fair to compare a past prime Wade alongside LBJ to an in Prime Pippen next to Jordan either. Their first year together was the only prime year LeBron and Wade had together and it's better than any year Pippen had next to Jordan and as you said a past prime Wade in their championship runs has a slight edge on an in prime Pippen when they were 2nd options.

2013-2014 was a brief glimpse of how filthy they would have dominated. Wade shot 54.5% from the field as a guard. That's ridiculous. Transition scoring for days.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 12:20 PM
or... Wade + Shaq? Why wouldn't you use that analogy? :laugh:



The impact of Wade's scoring is being devalued here. In a skill by skill comparison even Anthony Davis may be able to check off more than Shaq but no one is going to take AD over the Diesel.



2013-2014 was a brief glimpse of how filthy they would have dominated. Wade shot 54.5% from the field as a guard. That's ridiculous. Transition scoring for days.

I think in his Kobe and Shaq scenario he was using that as Kobe being the 2nd option and didn't use Wade becusee he was the 1st option with Shaq.

Yea a prime LeBron and Wade would've been absolutely ridiculous. You're talking 2 guys that at worst are 25-5-5 on 50% shooting and 26-8-8 on close to 60% shooting. They were arguably the 2 fastest players in the league for years and would've put on an even bigger show on the fast break than they already did.

LA4life24/8
05-10-2017, 12:20 PM
Peak, wade. Overall pippen longevity

Pippen was never the #1 option wade was

Wade was never the #2 option pippen was


This is a tough debate though. Hard to say

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 12:38 PM
I just went and looked at their numbers and I can't help but laugh lol. Is this really even a debate? It's clearly Wade and I'm not sure why people keep saying Pippen is a better passer, he isn't.

Wades 2nd year in the league is arguably better than any year Pippen ever had.

valade16
05-10-2017, 01:20 PM
Pippen had one year... yes... one... where Toni was brought in and Jackson was working him into the system, while also making room for a 20ppg scorer in Harper and giving Grant more time with the ball (which Grant had been asking for).

Pippen never pushed his scoring, because the skill set he developed complimented Jordan's. Basing his potential off of one year is not fair.

Wade had 6 years solo to develop that game. Comparing the accumulation of six seasons to one anomalous season is not fair, and you know that.

Alongside LBJ, Wade himself only averages in the high teens and low 20's the last three seasons. Which is exactly what Pippen was doing from 91-98: when they were winning championships. That is a much large sample size.

As I said, I would agree that Wade is a better scorer, and if you want to build a team on that alone, that is your prerogative.

I'd take Pippen because he is a better rebounder, as good a play maker (if not better), a far superior defender, and nearly as good a scorer.

We can agree to disagree on the importance of offence and defence. That's fine. But if you want to compare Wade's scoring average on the basis of six season as the primary scorer, to Pippen after developing a skill set to compliment Jordan when he went solo for one year when PJax was bringing new talent/scorers into the system, you are making an unfair comparison and frankly, in bad faith.

Let's compare Wade's championship averages next to prime LBJ to Pippens championship averages next to prime Jordan and see where they stand: about even with a slight advantage going to Wade. Which is what I said.

Wade didn't need 6 years, he was a better scorer than Pippen ever was year 2. Yeah Pippen's scoring was stunted next to MJ... except we saw his scoring potential when MJ left: 22 PPG. So he was scoring 2-3 more points without MJ. Pippen's highest points per 100 possessions is 30.0, Wade has only ever had a worse season his rookie year. And Wade's scoring efficiency is higher.

Wade's scoring prowess is vastly superior to Pippen's, its actually not even close (even Pippen without MJ).

BKLYNpigeon
05-10-2017, 01:25 PM
1993-1994, Pippen without Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF

Wade without Shaq or Lebron. made it out of second round once.

valade16
05-10-2017, 01:30 PM
1993-1994, Pippen without Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF

Wade without Shaq or Lebron. made it out of second round once.

Try again. 93-94 Pippen and the Bulls lost in the 2nd Rd to the Knicks in 7. If Wade made it past the 2nd around without Shaq or Bron, he's done it 1 more time than Pippen did.

BKLYNpigeon
05-10-2017, 01:41 PM
Yes, wade made it to the ECF once before ShaQ came. got swept by the Pistons. but his career is full of first round exits.

Redrum187
05-10-2017, 01:44 PM
In peak play, I have Wade above Pippen. I have Wade above Kobe too. Jerry West > Wade > Kobe though...

In career, I have Pippen over Wade. I just think Pippens overall contributions throughout his career give him the edge. It's sort of like Hakeem has the better peak in comparison to Tim Duncan, but Duncan has the better career.

Shlumpledink
05-10-2017, 01:44 PM
Pair Pippen with Lebron and they win more championships than Wade and Lebron. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap

SportsFanatic10
05-10-2017, 01:44 PM
Anyone saying this is close is delusional. Wade was a freak athlete. His first step and breakout speed was insane and for his height he had great size and strength as well. Best shot blocker under 6'6 of all time, best slasher of all time. Dude was a beast, and clutch as hell. Heart of a champ and played through pain his whole career. His passing is extremely underrated as well. I laugh at dumb comparisons like this.

YAALREADYKNO
05-10-2017, 01:45 PM
Yes, wade made it to the ECF once before ShaQ came. got swept by the Pistons. but his career is full of first round exits.

He made it without before Shaq when? In 2K?

Chronz
05-10-2017, 01:49 PM
Yes, wade made it to the ECF once before ShaQ came. got swept by the Pistons. but his career is full of first round exits.

They lost to the much more talented Indiana Pacers in a 7 game series and it was in the Semi's. I remember that playoffs for Stan neglecting to put a Rookie Wade in for a last second shot.

YAALREADYKNO
05-10-2017, 01:50 PM
Pippen is the better defender and a guy you would want complementing another star.
Wade is the better scorer and the guy you'd wanna try to build around.
I'll take Wade

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 01:52 PM
Yes, wade made it to the ECF once before ShaQ came. got swept by the Pistons. but his career is full of first round exits.

This is false. His rookie year he carried the Heat to the 2nd round in a tough series against the Pacers who were the best in the East I believe. Wades never been swept in the ECF. His sophomore season is when Shaq came and they lost in 7 to the Pistons in the ECF, they were up 3-2 until Wade got injured. Good chance they win a ring that year if he doesn't get injured.

First round exit years:

2006-07 shattered rotator cuff bad knee, forced himself back way too early for the playoffs to try and defend his ring, had more offseason surgery that summer.

2008-09: Look at his supporting cast, lost to a solid deep Hawks team.

2009-10: lost to the big 3 Celtics, again look st his supporting cast, Wade dominated

2016-17: supposedly had a season ending injury, fought back to play, up 2-0 until Rondo gets injured, had some big moments but struggled to find consistency after returning.

The year Pippen made it to the 2nd round he made it with a much better supporting cast than Wade had in any of those years.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 01:53 PM
They lost to the much more talented Indiana Pacers in a 7 game series and it was in the Semi's. I remember that playoffs for Stan neglecting to put a Rookie Wade in for a last second shot.

Was it 7? I thought it was 6. That was a bad decision by Stan as the rookie Wade hit 2 game winners in the first round and was their best player already.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 01:54 PM
Pair Pippen with Lebron and they win more championships than Wade and Lebron. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap

Not more than prime Wade and LeBron.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 01:55 PM
I dont even have Pippen above a healthy Grant Hill but Im willing to be educated on that one, Im not on Wade however. Had Wade remained healthy even alil bit (dude never experienced his true peak due to his surgery pre-NBA) he may have gone down as the 2nd greatest SG ever. Imagine if he had been healthy in Shaq's 1st year and in Brons first year (he was never the same after that injury vs Dallas), thats 5 titles with at least 2 won as the best player (Shaq was an MVP contender this season but Wade prolly outshines him in the Finals)

YAALREADYKNO
05-10-2017, 01:55 PM
They lost to the much more talented Indiana Pacers in a 7 game series and it was in the Semi's. I remember that playoffs for Stan neglecting to put a Rookie Wade in for a last second shot.

Yeah nobody thought that heat team led by a rookie wade would've won 2 straight and push the Pacers to 6 games

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 01:57 PM
I dont even have Pippen above a healthy Grant Hill but Im willing to be educated on that one, Im not on Wade however. Had Wade remained healthy even alil bit (dude never experienced his true peak due to his surgery pre-NBA) he may have gone down as the 2nd greatest SG ever. Imagine if he had been healthy in Shaq's 1st year and in Brons first year (he was never the same after that injury vs Dallas), thats 5 titles with at least 2 won as the best player (Shaq was an MVP contender this season but Wade prolly outshines him in the Finals)

And you also have 06-07 where he was leading the MVP race until shattering his rotator cuff, factoring in this season and the 2 you mentioned that's at best 3 more rings, 3 more finals MVPs, and an MVP. If he pulls that off he's top 10 ever.

BKLYNpigeon
05-10-2017, 02:06 PM
Sad to see Wade relying on Butler and Rondo carrying him to the playoffs.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:07 PM
Was it 7? I thought it was 6. That was a bad decision by Stan as the rookie Wade hit 2 game winners in the first round and was their best player already.

You would know better on that one I suppose, but yeah that was the beginning of Stans downward fall for me. Then Shaq and Zo essentially shat on him in their books and I was done.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:13 PM
May be overrated by some but I feel it's underrated by most. He should have more all defense teams for sure. He still shows signs of it in big moments where he'll just lock his guy up or get clutch blocks/steals.

This is where I disagree, Wade wasn't even his teams own stopper the year he made a 2nd team, that was Eddie's job and then later it was Posey's/GP's. Which I understand doesn't negate Wade's helping abilities but I just feel those guys did the heavier lifting for their teams defensively. My personal All-Defensive teams back in the 2000's was filled with a bunch of scrubs by comparison but I used to love hyping up no name defenders in the era before social media. Guys like Trenton Hassell, Q-Ross etc... should have gotten more pub than someone like Wade IMO. I dont give extra credit for guys who have to spend energy on both sides and maybe thats wrong but I like being literal with my awards.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:15 PM
Sad to see Wade relying on Butler and Rondo carrying him to the playoffs.

You remember what Pippen looked like when he was last with the Bulls, right?

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:16 PM
By the way, can someone vote already, the numbers 666 and 333 have been haunting me for a few months now. I just voted and came to those splits, someone ****ing vote plz

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:20 PM
Yeah nobody thought that heat team led by a rookie wade would've won 2 straight and push the Pacers to 6 games

I remember Odom getting most of the pub for their success but you're right, come playoffs, the teams best player made himself known, its a shame their own coach didn't recognize it. At the very least he was a co-alpha.


Its funny though, I remember thinking Melo should have won ROY that season but maybe Wade was the best player? Reminds me of when Tyreke won the award even though Harden and Curry were more efficient, Harden was on a 50 win team playing behind 2 other stars whereas Curry was on a **** team being held back by the leagues biggest cancer/chucker in Monta. I wish voters would treat the ROY similarly to how we view MVP.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 02:22 PM
This is where I disagree, Wade wasn't even his teams own stopper the year he made a 2nd team, that was Eddie's job and then later it was Posey's/GP's. Which I understand doesn't negate Wade's helping abilities but I just feel those guys did the heavier lifting for their teams defensively. My personal All-Defensive teams back in the 2000's was filled with a bunch of scrubs by comparison but I used to love hyping up no name defenders in the era before social media. Guys like Trenton Hassell, Q-Ross etc... should have gotten more pub than someone like Wade IMO. I dont give extra credit for guys who have to spend energy on both sides and maybe thats wrong but I like being literal with my awards.

They weren't going to have Wade guard the opposing best player every play just like the Cavs usually don't have LeBron doing so. The Heat even had Battier as their guy to guard the opposing teams best player at the 3/4 and we know he isn't a better defender than LeBron.

I'm not trying to argue him as a better defender than Scottie I'm just saying he's an underrated defender. He's a better shot blocker than Scottie though and arguably has better/equal defensive instincts.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 02:25 PM
Sad to see Wade relying on Butler and Rondo carrying him to the playoffs.

He was their 2nd best player for the season. Unfortunately he had what was supposed to be a season ending injury and could gain any consistency after that. He averaged 21-6-5 on 50% the month before getting injured.

It's clear you don't like him as you are throwing out false information to make him look bad but either add to the discussion or go about your business lol.

SportsFanatic10
05-10-2017, 02:31 PM
Sad to see Wade relying on Butler and Rondo carrying him to the playoffs.

I agree...watching Wade play the way he is now is the saddest thing in sports for me. He looks like he doesn't even care which is heartbreaking as a fan.

BKLYNpigeon
05-10-2017, 02:31 PM
Where does wade play next season? not many options left for the money he wants.

SportsFanatic10
05-10-2017, 02:33 PM
Yes, wade made it to the ECF once before ShaQ came. got swept by the Pistons. but his career is full of first round exits.

With like Beasley as his 2nd best player lol. It's also full of titles too....

SportsFanatic10
05-10-2017, 02:34 PM
Where does wade play next season? not many options left for the money he wants.

If he cares about money it's Chicago, not hard to guess. That's his best option money wise.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 02:37 PM
Where does wade play next season? not many options left for the money he wants.

He'll either opt in and get paid 1 more time or opt out and join a contender for less.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 02:40 PM
Just saw Scottie only weighed 210, has nothing to do with the debate it was just shocking to me.

SportsFanatic10
05-10-2017, 02:44 PM
I dont even have Pippen above a healthy Grant Hill but Im willing to be educated on that one, Im not on Wade however. Had Wade remained healthy even alil bit (dude never experienced his true peak due to his surgery pre-NBA) he may have gone down as the 2nd greatest SG ever. Imagine if he had been healthy in Shaq's 1st year and in Brons first year (he was never the same after that injury vs Dallas), thats 5 titles with at least 2 won as the best player (Shaq was an MVP contender this season but Wade prolly outshines him in the Finals)

This is a really good post. Wade could of been insanely good if he made it into the league with all his body intact, the career he carved out regardless as the 3rd-4th best SG and top 20-25 player ever is a testament to how good he really was. It's crazy to think about how good he actually could of been, and not many people even seem to know or acknowledge that he played hurt literally ever single game of his nba career. They just want to say he was injury prone. I mean the guy's takeoff/explosion leg had no meniscus and he still became an all time great with an insane first step and best slasher i've ever seen plus best shotblocker for a guard ever. Quite the achievement. Dude had the heart of a champion. I don't see that in him anymore though, as a huge fan I kinda hope he either retires or takes a 6th man role on a contender at this point.

SportsFanatic10
05-10-2017, 02:53 PM
This is where I disagree, Wade wasn't even his teams own stopper the year he made a 2nd team, that was Eddie's job and then later it was Posey's/GP's. Which I understand doesn't negate Wade's helping abilities but I just feel those guys did the heavier lifting for their teams defensively. My personal All-Defensive teams back in the 2000's was filled with a bunch of scrubs by comparison but I used to love hyping up no name defenders in the era before social media. Guys like Trenton Hassell, Q-Ross etc... should have gotten more pub than someone like Wade IMO. I dont give extra credit for guys who have to spend energy on both sides and maybe thats wrong but I like being literal with my awards.

Honestly not many stars should make all defense teams. Kobe certainly made way too many. I'd like to see the actual guys who focus on defense and put in the grit and work get those nods to be honest. But Wade absolutely took on the challenge of defending the other teams best player so long as it wasn't a big down the stretch or for key possessions in his prime. Even just last season he wanted Lowry in a big possession at the end of a game in the Raps series and told Spo he had him. He played perfect defense but Lowry still made the midrange shot with better offense. He has literally always done that. And as bad as he has been this season for the most part he still ended a number of games with big steals or blocks, the guy has a knack for clutch defense, always has.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 03:05 PM
Honestly not many stars should make all defense teams. Kobe certainly made way too many. I'd like to see the actual guys who focus on defense and put in the grit and work get those nods to be honest. But Wade absolutely took on the challenge of defending the other teams best player so long as it wasn't a big down the stretch or for key possessions in his prime. Even just last season he wanted Lowry in a big possession at the end of a game in the Raps series and told Spo he had him. He played perfect defense but Lowry still made the midrange shot with better offense. He has literally always done that. And as bad as he has been this season for the most part he still ended a number of games with big steals or blocks, the guy has a knack for clutch defense, always has.

Yea he's literally just clutch everything. There's nothing on either side of the ball he can't do in the clutch which brings up another point for debate, Scottie was never near as clutch as Wade and couldn't carry a team through the biggest moments of a game like Wade could.

SportsFanatic10
05-10-2017, 03:26 PM
Yea he's literally just clutch everything. There's nothing on either side of the ball he can't do in the clutch which brings up another point for debate, Scottie was never near as clutch as Wade and couldn't carry a team through the biggest moments of a game like Wade could.

Yep for sure...Wade even at an old age has been one of the games ELITE closers ever. As he got into his 30s he needed his minutes managed and started picking and choosing his spots to take over a game since he couldn't do it the way he used to. But I've never doubted his ability when the game was on the line or "winning time" as he calls it.

Remember back in the 06 finals when he jumped up and intercepted that alley-oop attempt at the buzzer...the guy just seemed like he was everywhere! lol.

Edit...just had to add, even just last season as I'm sure you know he was amazing for the heat in the playoffs when it mattered in big moments. Dude would come through... Purple shirt dumb*** take a seat! lol

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 04:06 PM
It's not fair to compare a past prime Wade alongside LBJ to an in Prime Pippen next to Jordan either. Their first year together was the only prime year LeBron and Wade had together and it's better than any year Pippen had next to Jordan and as you said a past prime Wade in their championship runs has a slight edge on an in prime Pippen when they were 2nd options.

Really? I think comparing Wade at ages 30 (22.1ppg), 31 (21.2.ppg), and 32 (19ppg) to Pippen at 30 (19.4ppg), 31 (20ppg), and 32 (19.1ppg) is perfectly legit. The both averages in the high teens or low 20's when playing next to an MVP. My apologies is Pippen's prime, in your mind, lasted longer than Wade's.

But sure... whatever.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 04:12 PM
Couldn't develop his game? Are you serious, dude? He's supposedly better than Wade but after six years and three championships, he couldn't develop his game to score more than ONE point the season after? No, because some players DON'T become better players. You're speaking about production but in terms of BEING a player, Wade's ceiling was higher.

I'm not sure if you simply aren't reading what I wrote, or arguing in bad faith with a strawman argument.

I wrote that he did develop his game, but he developed a game that was complimentary to Jordan's. He was used to playing off a creator and not relying on his own ability to create. In one season, when he was expected to develop a new element to his game, he did quite well, but no, he didn't get 6 years to develop that the way Wade did. And coupled with that, as I mentioned, he was playing on a team that had just added another 20ppg scorer (Ron Harper) and Toni Kukoc, who Jackson gave a prominent role in the offense.

How mand season as a primary ball handler/scorer did Wade have before he got up to 22ppg?

You comment is clearly misconstruing what I said and suggesting I made an argument I didn't make. This you have done either out of an inability to understand what I wrote, wilful blindness, or in bad faith. Regardless of which, there is no point to continuing conversing with somebody who isn't interested in have a debate in good faith.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 04:29 PM
Really? I think comparing Wade at ages 30 (22.1ppg), 31 (21.2.ppg), and 32 (19ppg) to Pippen at 30 (19.4ppg), 31 (20ppg), and 32 (19.1ppg) is perfectly legit. The both averages in the high teens or low 20's when playing next to an MVP. My apologies is Pippen's prime, in your mind, lasted longer than Wade's.

But sure... whatever.

So you want to count 2 seasons Wade played on 1 leg? Works for me then, he was still the better player. There's literally no debate for Pippen over Wade at this point. I haven't seen a good argument yet. Wade was the far better scorer and shot better percentages, better passer, shot blocker, clutch player, more dynamic/dominant player, etc. there's no debate for Pippen anymore. Wades 2nd year in the league is nearly as good as any year Pippen ever had, let that sink in.

mngopher35
05-10-2017, 04:30 PM
I think there are situations where it makes sense to take Pippen over Wade depending on the team. With that said however if this is like a first pick and you just choose one of these guys I gotta go Wade. Better peak and offensive player, Pippen is a great 2nd option to a star though imo.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 04:31 PM
The impact of Wade's scoring is being devalued here. In a skill by skill comparison even Anthony Davis may be able to check off more than Shaq but no one is going to take AD over the Diesel.

Is that a fair analogy?

Is the difference in efficiency that exists between the Brow and Shaq as slight as the difference between Pippen and Wade?

Davis has a career .524 mark inside the arc. Shaq? 583. That is a HUGE difference. 6%. And in his prime, Shaq led the league in FG% TEN TIMES!!! AD hasn't even sniffed that. Shaq shot over .600 from inside the arc FOUR times. AD has never come near that.

So... that is a DRASTIC difference.

Now... Wade and Pippen? Pippen is .505 on his career; Wade is .507 from inside the arc. Not even a half a percent. Beyond the arc? Pippen .326 to Wade's .287. Advantage Pippen (though he has those two years they brought the arc in amping up his numebrs, so let's call it even).

So... yeah... when you look at that... is seems you are taking an EXTREME case in Shaq and AD, and comparing it to a mild case where there isn't even a clear difference between the two player's efficiency.


Now... you might say this is about more than efficiency. This is about leading a team. Pippen is a complimentary piece; Wade is the engine. On that, we simply don't have enough to compare because Pippen didn't have enough seasons on his own. But we do have some sample.

Look at Jordan. I think we'll agree that Jordan did everything Wade did only better. Correct? Assuming you agree to that, look at the 93 championship Bulls. Jordan led that team to 57 wins and an NBA title.

The next year, sans Jordan, with Pippen as the leader: 55 wins. Only 2 fewer wins. Clearly Pippen is capable of handling that scoring load and leading a team's offense. Otherwise the drop would have been far more than 2 games.

Wade, in a similar context, saw LBJ go, and like Jordan was replaced by Harper, LBJ was replaced by Deng (a comparable though not exact trade off for talent).

Miami saw 12 fewer wins. That may be unfair, because Wade was older than Pippen was at those respective ages . So let's take a look at Wade earlier in his career while playing on his own. When Wade was handling things on his own, he dropped from an NBA title to 44 wins, to the lottery the next year with fewer than 20 wins (albeit with less talent than Pippen had in 94), and still only 43 wins the year after. Pippen, leading the Bulls on his own in 94, led them to 55. More than any of those three seasons. You might say 'injuries in 07. Lack of talent in 08 and 09, but there is a pattern there. Wade playing his best ball in 09 only got 43 wins. Were Pippen to have played on a poorer team with less talent that called on him to score more, he likely could have done so, but given that he was a facilitator and trying to win, he involved his teammates, trading that extra 8 ppg for an additional 12 wins.


It's hard to compare, admittedly, because there are differences, but your AD/Shaq analogy doesn't hold up, and Pippen clearly displayed an ability to lead a competitive team's offense.

Wade is the better offensive player, but frankly not by a significant amount. Whereas Pippen is head-and-shoulders above Wade on the other end of the court. Each player spends 50% of the game at each end, so by giving value to Pippen's defense, one isn't undervaluing Wade's offense. One is simply given fair value to Pippen's D.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 04:37 PM
I'm not sure if you simply aren't reading what I wrote, or arguing in bad faith with a strawman argument.

I wrote that he did develop his game, but he developed a game that was complimentary to Jordan's. He was used to playing off a creator and not relying on his own ability to create. In one season, when he was expected to develop a new element to his game, he did quite well, but no, he didn't get 6 years to develop that the way Wade did. And coupled with that, as I mentioned, he was playing on a team that had just added another 20ppg scorer (Ron Harper) and Toni Kukoc, who Jackson gave a prominent role in the offense.

How mand season as a primary ball handler/scorer did Wade have before he got up to 22ppg?

You comment is clearly misconstruing what I said and suggesting I made an argument I didn't make. This you have done either out of an inability to understand what I wrote, wilful blindness, or in bad faith. Regardless of which, there is no point to continuing conversing with somebody who isn't interested in have a debate in good faith.

He averaged 24-5-7-2-1 his 2nd year in the league so to answer your question on how long it took him to score 22 PPG, it took him one season and that season happened to be his rookie year so I hope we're not going to try and use that for your argument.

Also, his first year in the league he was PG not the first 2 or 3 like you said earlier, I'm not convinced he wouldn't have scored at least 22 PPG in his rookie year if he wasn't focused on trying to be a PG. At least considering how he came in and instantly started dominating the league. As I and others have said, it's a shame he had so many injuries but it's also pretty amazing he was able to carve himself a place in the top 20 all time while having so many injuries.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 04:38 PM
I think there are situations where it makes sense to take Pippen over Wade depending on the team. With that said however if this is like a first pick and you just choose one of these guys I gotta go Wade. Better peak and offensive player, Pippen is a great 2nd option to a star though imo.

There's no way of knowing that last part though because we never saw prime/peak Wade as a 2nd option

RowBTrice
05-10-2017, 04:45 PM
Pippen would smoke Wade 1-on-1 in their primes

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 04:52 PM
Is that a fair analogy?

Is the difference in efficiency that exists between the Brow and Shaq as slight as the difference between Pippen and Wade?

Davis has a career .524 mark inside the arc. Shaq? 583. That is a HUGE difference. 6%. And in his prime, Shaq led the league in FG% TEN TIMES!!! AD hasn't even sniffed that. Shaq shot over .600 from inside the arc FOUR times. AD has never come near that.

So... that is a DRASTIC difference.

Now... Wade and Pippen? Pippen is .505 on his career; Wade is .507 from inside the arc. Not even a half a percent. Beyond the arc? Pippen .326 to Wade's .287. Advantage Pippen (though he has those two years they brought the arc in amping up his numebrs, so let's call it even).

So... yeah... when you look at that... is seems you are taking an EXTREME case in Shaq and AD, and comparing it to a mild case where there isn't even a clear difference between the two player's efficiency.


Now... you might say this is about more than efficiency. This is about leading a team. Pippen is a complimentary piece; Wade is the engine. On that, we simply don't have enough to compare because Pippen didn't have enough seasons on his own. But we do have some sample.

Look at Jordan. I think we'll agree that Jordan did everything Wade did only better. Correct? Assuming you agree to that, look at the 93 championship Bulls. Jordan led that team to 57 wins and an NBA title.

The next year, sans Jordan, with Pippen as the leader: 55 wins. Only 2 fewer wins. Clearly Pippen is capable of handling that scoring load and leading a team's offense. Otherwise the drop would have been far more than 2 games.

Wade, in a similar context, saw LBJ go, and like Jordan was replaced by Harper, LBJ was replaced by Deng (a comparable though not exact trade off for talent).

Miami saw 12 fewer wins. That may be unfair, because Wade was older than Pippen was at those respective ages . So let's take a look at Wade earlier in his career while playing on his own. When Wade was handling things on his own, he dropped from an NBA title to 44 wins, to the lottery the next year with fewer than 20 wins (albeit with less talent than Pippen had in 94), and still only 43 wins the year after. Pippen, leading the Bulls on his own in 94, led them to 55. More than any of those three seasons. You might say 'injuries in 07. Lack of talent in 08 and 09, but there is a pattern there. Wade playing his best ball in 09 only got 43 wins. Were Pippen to have played on a poorer team with less talent that called on him to score more, he likely could have done so, but given that he was a facilitator and trying to win, he involved his teammates, trading that extra 8 ppg for an additional 12 wins.


It's hard to compare, admittedly, because there are differences, but your AD/Shaq analogy doesn't hold up, and Pippen clearly displayed an ability to lead a competitive team's offense.

Wade is the better offensive player, but frankly not by a significant amount. Whereas Pippen is head-and-shoulders above Wade on the other end of the court. Each player spends 50% of the game at each end, so by giving value to Pippen's defense, one isn't undervaluing Wade's offense. One is simply given fair value to Pippen's D.

The paragraph about Wades wins with those teams you listed is so far off and lacks any kind of context lol.

06-07: Wade shattered his rotator cuff and missed 31 games. I think we can both agree he for sure wins more than 55 if he doesn't get injured. He was also leading the MVP race 50 games in.

07-08: terrible supporting cast, played injured, they shut him down and had him get multiple knee injuries and he also missed 31 games that year.

08-09: increased his teams wins by 28 with the return of his injury I believe (most all time), had a terrible supporting cast (rookie chalmers, rookie Beasley, washed up Jermaine O'Neal all starting next to him), haslem was the 2nd best player probably, and Wade put up a stat line no one has ever put up in NBA history and finished top 3 in MVP and DPOY. Jordan is the only other guard to ever do that.

Pippen had a much stronger supporting cast.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 04:53 PM
Pippen would smoke Wade 1-on-1 in their primes

You don't have Wade top 50 all time so your input is irrelevant. Wade has like 7 or 8 season that are better than any season Pippen had.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 04:59 PM
Also let's not fool ourselves here, Pippen had 2 years as the main guy, 93-94 and 94-95. Jordan only played 17 games in 94-95, that was Pippens team majority of the season. Neither season comes close to any of Wades in his prime.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 05:15 PM
He averaged 24-5-7-2-1 his 2nd year in the league so to answer your question on how long it took him to score 22 PPG, it took him one season and that season happened to be his rookie year so I hope we're not going to try and use that for your argument.

Also, his first year in the league he was PG not the first 2 or 3 like you said earlier, I'm not convinced he wouldn't have scored at least 22 PPG in his rookie year if he wasn't focused on trying to be a PG. At least considering how he came in and instantly started dominating the league. As I and others have said, it's a shame he had so many injuries but it's also pretty amazing he was able to carve himself a place in the top 20 all time while having so many injuries.

I feel like when comparing and choosing between two all-time greats (and Wade and Pippen are both all-time greats), people who support A over B feel like those who support B over A are attacking A.

That's not what I'm doing. Wade was amazing. Top five SG all time in my book. Only guys in the conversation with him are MJ, Kobe, Drex West and like Gervin (though I value Richmond and Allen greatly as well).

I am just the kind of guy who puts a lot of weight on D. Pippen was a better defender, Wade was a beter scorer. The difference in my mind is that gap between Wade and Pip offense is not nearly as big as the gap between their defense.



Wade is great. Pippen's great. I put a lot of defense, so I'd pick Pippen.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 05:17 PM
The paragraph about Wades wins with those teams you listed is so far off and lacks any kind of context lol.

06-07: Wade shattered his rotator cuff and missed 31 games. I think we can both agree he for sure wins more than 55 if he doesn't get injured. He was also leading the MVP race 50 games in.

07-08: terrible supporting cast, played injured, they shut him down and had him get multiple knee injuries and he also missed 31 games that year.

08-09: increased his teams wins by 28 with the return of his injury I believe (most all time), had a terrible supporting cast (rookie chalmers, rookie Beasley, washed up Jermaine O'Neal all starting next to him), haslem was the 2nd best player probably, and Wade put up a stat line no one has ever put up in NBA history and finished top 3 in MVP and DPOY. Jordan is the only other guard to ever do that.

Pippen had a much stronger supporting cast.

I addressed all of those issue. It's why I said the comparison is difficult to make. I don't know why you are bringing up points I included.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 05:26 PM
I don't think you're attacking him I just disagree with your view.

Wade is the 3rd best SG imo. Richmond Allen and Gervin aren't even in the discussion, I feel you're inderrating Wades defense as well.

Basically by this same assumption you would also pick Pippen over Kobe. Pippen is the far better defender and Kobe is the better scorer. Peak Wade is better than peak Kobe and both blow peak Pippen out of the water so it just doesn't add up to me.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 05:27 PM
So you want to count 2 seasons Wade played on 1 leg? Works for me then, he was still the better player. There's literally no debate for Pippen over Wade at this point. I haven't seen a good argument yet. Wade was the far better scorer and shot better percentages, better passer, shot blocker, clutch player, more dynamic/dominant player, etc. there's no debate for Pippen anymore. Wades 2nd year in the league is nearly as good as any year Pippen ever had, let that sink in.

Look... if you to compare peak... sure... Wade's peak is better. I'm looking at the entire career. So yes... the difference between their offensive game in the context I spoke is minimal.

If you want to say "compare their primes" and Wade's is 4 years shorted than Pippen... Pippen has an edge. If you want to call out my comparison and say its unfair because I'm not comparing primes, and I compare them at the same age, you come up with another reason the comparison is unacceptable to you.

You are 'moving the goal post'.

It doesn't matter what I say, if I provide evidence that support my case, you'll simply ignore the evidence for an arbitrary reason and believe what you want.

I wouldn't say Wade was a better shot blocker, but even if he were, you could clearly say that Pippen was better at get steals and locking down players. Better passer? I'd be curious to hear how you quantify that.

Pippen 5.4 ast per36; Wade 5.8 per36 (and likely to go down as he finishes out his career). So about even.

Turnover: Wade: 3.4/Pippen 2.9.

So Pip's got a better assist-to-turnover ratio. You might say Wade handled the ball more for scoring... sure.. put Pippen played in a system that had a lot more passing the ball, making plays that led to the assist. Either way... stats don't suggest that either was notably better than the other when it came to passing.


As for more 'dynamic'. What does that even mean? Force of power? Force of motion? Motivated or effects stability? These are how that word is defined. You are using an abstract word, a subjective term, to quantify something. I'd say the Bulls were more 'stable' than the Heat when you look at their win totals throughout Pippen's career. A force of power or motion? I'm not sure how you quantify the argument that that describes Wade more than Pippen. Seems like gibberish to me.

FlashBolt
05-10-2017, 06:04 PM
I'm not sure if you simply aren't reading what I wrote, or arguing in bad faith with a strawman argument.

I wrote that he did develop his game, but he developed a game that was complimentary to Jordan's. He was used to playing off a creator and not relying on his own ability to create. In one season, when he was expected to develop a new element to his game, he did quite well, but no, he didn't get 6 years to develop that the way Wade did. And coupled with that, as I mentioned, he was playing on a team that had just added another 20ppg scorer (Ron Harper) and Toni Kukoc, who Jackson gave a prominent role in the offense.

How mand season as a primary ball handler/scorer did Wade have before he got up to 22ppg?

You comment is clearly misconstruing what I said and suggesting I made an argument I didn't make. This you have done either out of an inability to understand what I wrote, wilful blindness, or in bad faith. Regardless of which, there is no point to continuing conversing with somebody who isn't interested in have a debate in good faith.

Yup. Pippen was so much better than Wade that he couldn't "adapt" to score more than one more point per game than Jordan. What's most likely is that I caught you in a bad situation in which now you're just using a damn excuse to explain why Pippen can't score a measly 1 extra point.. seriously, what's your argument? Who's to say Pippen didn't benefit from being a second option because he would have had to drive the offense every game? Who's to say Pippen wouldn't have gotten injured because he had to extort so much energy as the 1st option? I see you only like arguments that fit your agenda. Strawman argument? Uhh, I'm giving you facts that repent what you stated. The year after Jordan retired, Pippen scored less than 1 ppg more than he did the season before. ONE POINT. Great players can adjust and score more than one point. How many points did Harden score after he left OKC? Some guys are just a 1st option player and some aren't. You can't substitute a 2nd option player in a 1st option role and then say they could've been greater. No, Pippen's game fit a 2nd option and that's why he won six rings. Had he tried to be the 1st option, Bulls don't win a single ring. End of story. Don't be blindfully ignorant and read the excuses you're making because it certainly sounds like you're incapable of making a legitimate argument.

FlashBolt
05-10-2017, 06:12 PM
I don't think you're attacking him I just disagree with your view.

Wade is the 3rd best SG imo. Richmond Allen and Gervin aren't even in the discussion, I feel you're inderrating Wades defense as well.

Basically by this same assumption you would also pick Pippen over Kobe. Pippen is the far better defender and Kobe is the better scorer. Peak Wade is better than peak Kobe and both blow peak Pippen out of the water so it just doesn't add up to me.

His argument:

Pippen is better because of his longevity.. despite Pippen's last few years being just random crap that never amounted to much. I guess the dude really lacked an argument that he really thought Pippen's extra two seasons playing as a 4th or 5th option was the winning point for him.

I love how you mentioned Kobe and how Pippen also BEATS Kobe in those categories he's referring to but then he completely ignores answering it. This dude just contradicts himself. What's also funny is that Pippen beats Jordan in some of these metrics he uses. All he did was show that while Pippen did have a better T/O ratio and more steals, it doesn't represent who the better player was. Pippen was in a secondary role for much of his career and that allowed him to work on the other parts of his game. We don't know how great Pippen could have been leading a team on his own for a decade but we do know that the one season he had the chance to, his statistical numbers were barely noticeable. But I'll leave it to that guy who thinks Pippen>Kobe with his silly arguments. He'll bring longevity up but it doesn't change the fact that the metrics he uses basically contradicts his narrative.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 06:32 PM
His argument:

Pippen is better because of his longevity.. despite Pippen's last few years being just random crap that never amounted to much. I guess the dude really lacked an argument that he really thought Pippen's extra two seasons playing as a 4th or 5th option was the winning point for him.

I love how you mentioned Kobe and how Pippen also BEATS Kobe in those categories he's referring to but then he completely ignores answering it. This dude just contradicts himself. What's also funny is that Pippen beats Jordan in some of these metrics he uses. All he did was show that while Pippen did have a better T/O ratio and more steals, it doesn't represent who the better player was. Pippen was in a secondary role for much of his career and that allowed him to work on the other parts of his game. We don't know how great Pippen could have been leading a team on his own for a decade but we do know that the one season he had the chance to, his statistical numbers were barely noticeable. But I'll leave it to that guy who thinks Pippen>Kobe with his silly arguments. He'll bring longevity up but it doesn't change the fact that the metrics he uses basically contradicts his narrative.

Yea I was going to mention Jordan but didn't lol. Pippen is the better defender, Jordan is the better scorer.

The whole longevity thing is confusing me as well? What longevity? Pippen was consistently as good as the years where Wade was playing on one leg and people were questioning if he would retire soon or not lol. I'm not sure that longevity helps his argument as much. For example, the following seasons of Wade career were better than any season Pippen ever had:

04-05
05-06
06-07 (pre injury, would've been Wades best season)
07-08 (pre injury)
08-09
09-10
10-11

Then there are some pretty debatable years in:

11-12
12-13
13-14
15-16 (got his team to the 3rd seed and 1 win from the ECF)

That's damn near every year of Wades career.

Also Pippen was the first option for 2 years, 93-94 and 94-95 where Jordan came back with 17 games left and Pippen was actually worse his 2nd year as the number 1 option.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 06:35 PM
Also if you're 4 inches shorter and average more blocks than someone who is 6'8 and known as one of the best perimeter defenders ever, you're the better shot blocker imo.

Tim Grover (MJ Kobe and Wades trainer) said Wade is easily the closest thing he's seen to Jordan and said their instincts on the court are basically identical. To be the offensive player Wade was you need great instincts but those instincts really show when you see his ability to block shots and get in the passing lanes. Not to mention a lot of Wades blocks are against 7 footers that tried to dunk on him.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 06:40 PM
I see 8 votes for Pippen with only 1 guy trying to make an argument for Pippen so I'm going to assume the other 7 are trolling or simply don't like Wade so voted against him and the real count is 21-1 which seems more realistic when you really sit back and look at their careers.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 06:52 PM
Yup. Pippen was so much better than Wade that he couldn't "adapt" to score more than one more point per game than Jordan.

One more point than Jordan? I thought we were comparing him to Wade? Since when does Pippen have to score more than Jordan in this comparison?



What's most likely is that I caught you in a bad situation in which now you're just using a damn excuse to explain why Pippen can't score a measly 1 extra point.. seriously, what's your argument?

I realize this might make sense to you, but there is no coherent argument here. What is this 'one point' you are talking about?



Who's to say Pippen didn't benefit from being a second option because he would have had to drive the offense every game?

No doubt he did benefit from playing with Jordan, just as Wade benefited from playing with Shaq and LBJ. Pippen did have a season without Jordan, and he won 55 games.


Who's to say Pippen wouldn't have gotten injured because he had to extort so much energy as the 1st option? I see you only like arguments that fit your agenda.

Umm.. now you are trying to change history to suit your argument. Sounds like you are the one grasping at straws here.




Strawman argument? Uhh, I'm giving you facts that repent what you stated.

LMAO!!! 'Repent'? Right... check the dictionary friend. AS for 'fact', you must go to the same school as Trump if that is what you call facts. Saying "what if Pippen had been injured" is not a fact.



The year after Jordan retired, Pippen scored less than 1 ppg more than he did the season before. ONE POINT. Great players can adjust and score more than one point.


Again.. you haven't read what I wrote: The Bulls added Toni and Ron Harper. The pick up a lot of the scoring load that Jordan left on the table.


As for this whole 'facts thing: 1993: Pippen averaged 18.6 points per game; 1994, without Jordan, he averaged 22.0 points per game (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html). That is 3.4 points. Not one. But if you measure talent by per game averages alone, you are being lazy and will draws conclusions that are often wrong.



How many points did Harden score after he left OKC? Some guys are just a 1st option player and some aren't. You can't substitute a 2nd option player in a 1st option role and then say they could've been greater.

Oh...I thought we were talking about Wade and Pippen, not Harden. My bad.



No, Pippen's game fit a 2nd option and that's why he won six rings. Had he tried to be the 1st option, Bulls don't win a single ring.

This here is another strawman argument. Since you seem to not know what one is, let me explain. The question is, "Wade or Pippen: who do you think is the better player?" What you are arguing here is "Who is the better first option?" That is different.

To that, I say:

Wade tried to get a ring without Shaq or LBJ, and didn't even get the 55 wins Pippen managed. But hey, why hold Wade to the same standard you hold Pippen to…



End of story. Don't be blindfully ignorant and read the excuses you're making because it certainly sounds like you're incapable of making a legitimate argument.

'Blindfully'? Do you mean wilfully?

You can say I don't have a legit argument, but I've actually made one. You've just relied on what ifs, arbitrary and misinformed per game averages, 'alternative facts' and logical fallacies.

I'm not sure if you are a troll, or an idiot, and regardless of the answer, I've already wasted as much time with you as I'm going to.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 06:53 PM
I see 8 votes for Pippen with only 1 guy trying to make an argument for Pippen so I'm going to assume the other 7 are trolling or simply don't like Wade so voted against him and the real count is 21-1 which seems more realistic when you really sit back and look at their careers.

Sounds like legit research analysis there. I'm sure that will make it through peer review.

ball4reel
05-10-2017, 06:56 PM
I'm going with Pippen. Better shooter, defender, and passer. Just my opinion tho

Redrum187
05-10-2017, 07:04 PM
Also if you're 4 inches shorter and average more blocks than someone who is 6'8 and known as one of the best perimeter defenders ever, you're the better shot blocker imo.

Tim Grover (MJ Kobe and Wades trainer) said Wade is easily the closest thing he's seen to Jordan and said their instincts on the court are basically identical. To be the offensive player Wade was you need great instincts but those instincts really show when you see his ability to block shots and get in the passing lanes. Not to mention a lot of Wades blocks are against 7 footers that tried to dunk on him.

I don't really get how averaging more blocks per game is even relevant when discussing which player was the overall better defender. It isn't even close when it comes to defense for their entire career. I don't care if Wade averaged 2 blocks per game and Pippen averaged .1 blocks per game... Pippen is hands down the better defensive player. I won't look at one raw number defensive stat to close the gap... it's like putting a bandaid over a .44 mag gunshot wound... it isn't closing anything.

I think Pippen's versatility on the defensive end is underrated and understated. He could guard 1-3 and most 4's all while putting up really good offensive numbers (though, Wade is better offensively).

Peak goes to Wade, career goes to Pippen. If I didn't have any stars, I'd probably go Wade. If I had a star already, I'd definitely go Pippen.

Redrum187
05-10-2017, 07:13 PM
I'm going with Pippen. Better shooter, defender, and passer. Just my opinion tho

I would agree: Pippen is the better shooter/spacer, defender, passer (ast/turnover), and rebounder. He also had a significantly lower usage which is a good thing when considering he put up similar passing numbers as Wade, only slightly more efficiently.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 07:18 PM
I'm going with Pippen. Better shooter, defender, and passer. Just my opinion tho

He's a better defender, not a better passer, and shot worse from the field where Wade has some seasons Pippen doesn't even come close to shooting from the field wise.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 07:21 PM
One more point than Jordan? I thought we were comparing him to Wade? Since when does Pippen have to score more than Jordan in this comparison?




I realize this might make sense to you, but there is no coherent argument here. What is this 'one point' you are talking about?




No doubt he did benefit from playing with Jordan, just as Wade benefited from playing with Shaq and LBJ. Pippen did have a season without Jordan, and he won 55 games.



Umm.. now you are trying to change history to suit your argument. Sounds like you are the one grasping at straws here.





LMAO!!! 'Repent'? Right... check the dictionary friend. AS for 'fact', you must go to the same school as Trump if that is what you call facts. Saying "what if Pippen had been injured" is not a fact.





Again.. you haven't read what I wrote: The Bulls added Toni and Ron Harper. The pick up a lot of the scoring load that Jordan left on the table.


As for this whole 'facts thing: 1993: Pippen averaged 18.6 points per game; 1994, without Jordan, he averaged 22.0 points per game (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html). That is 3.4 points. Not one. But if you measure talent by per game averages alone, you are being lazy and will draws conclusions that are often wrong.




Oh...I thought we were talking about Wade and Pippen, not Harden. My bad.




This here is another strawman argument. Since you seem to not know what one is, let me explain. The question is, "Wade or Pippen: who do you think is the better player?" What you are arguing here is "Who is the better first option?" That is different.

To that, I say:

Wade tried to get a ring without Shaq or LBJ, and didn't even get the 55 wins Pippen managed. But hey, why hold Wade to the same standard you hold Pippen to…




'Blindfully'? Do you mean wilfully?

You can say I don't have a legit argument, but I've actually made one. You've just relied on what ifs, arbitrary and misinformed per game averages, 'alternative facts' and logical fallacies.

I'm not sure if you are a troll, or an idiot, and regardless of the answer, I've already wasted as much time with you as I'm going to.

He means he only averaged 1 more point without Jordan than he did with Jordan.

As for the 55 wins, you're once again not using context and I already laid the context out for you, that's probably why he isn't using it.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 07:24 PM
I would agree: Pippen is the better shooter/spacer, defender, passer (ast/turnover), and rebounder. He also had a significantly lower usage which is a good thing when considering he put up similar passing numbers as Wade, only slightly more efficiently.

He's not a better passer than Wade and you guys are talking like he was an elite shooter and floor spacer lol. He shot .5 more 3s per game than Wade and only shot 32%.

Wades best years blow Pippens out of the water.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 07:33 PM
I don't really get how averaging more blocks per game is even relevant when discussing which player was the overall better defender. It isn't even close when it comes to defense for their entire career. I don't care if Wade averaged 2 blocks per game and Pippen averaged .1 blocks per game... Pippen is hands down the better defensive player. I won't look at one raw number defensive stat to close the gap... it's like putting a bandaid over a .44 mag gunshot wound... it isn't closing anything.

I think Pippen's versatility on the defensive end is underrated and understated. He could guard 1-3 and most 4's all while putting up really good offensive numbers (though, Wade is better offensively).

Peak goes to Wade, career goes to Pippen. If I didn't have any stars, I'd probably go Wade. If I had a star already, I'd definitely go Pippen.

Your last paragraph proves Wade is better then. Let LeBron and Wade play almost their whole careers together and they probably have more than 6 rings though.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 07:35 PM
Also I'm not using the blocks to argue he's a better defender, Pippen is the better defender you guys are just dismissing Wades defense which I don't agree with. Wade was a very good defender at his peak.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 07:39 PM
Sounds like legit research analysis there. I'm sure that will make it through peer review.

Thanks, I still haven't seen a good argument for Pippen over Wade so I agree. I just listed like 5 or 6 years from Wade that are for sure better than Pippens best year and 4 more that are arguably better than Pippens best year and I've seen no one claim otherwise. Look, if someone has 8 or so seasons better than another player chances are they're for sure the better player and are ranked higher all time.

You also didn't comment back on your argument basically claiming Pippen is better than Kobe too. It's just not a good argument.

effen5
05-10-2017, 08:06 PM
Based on what? Wade was clearly the superior player when they were at their best.
So why make the thread then?

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 08:23 PM
So why make the thread then?

Because I was told otherwise and wanted to get other opinions.

Who did you vote for? I'd Pippen, I'm assuming it's because you're a Chicago fan because there's literally no debate otherwise.

ball4reel
05-10-2017, 08:36 PM
Better Passer rebounder and can shoot the 3 . I would take a prime Pippen over a Prime wade any day of the week

BKLYNpigeon
05-10-2017, 09:20 PM
He's not a better passer than Wade and you guys are talking like he was an elite shooter and floor spacer lol. He shot .5 more 3s per game than Wade and only shot 32%.

Wades best years blow Pippens out of the water.


They shot less 3s in the 90's

Redrum187
05-10-2017, 09:30 PM
He's not a better passer than Wade and you guys are talking like he was an elite shooter and floor spacer lol. He shot .5 more 3s per game than Wade and only shot 32%.

Wades best years blow Pippens out of the water.

Shooting consists of more than just 3 point shots though, which Pippen is 12 points more per 100 shots greater at than Wade. Pippen had the better midrange game too. Wade was under 39% from 10 feet and beyond for his entire career.

As for being a better passer, I give Pippen the edge. In the regular season it's a wash. Wade has marginally more assists but on more turnovers (and ast/turnover ratio). Since they are a wash in the regular season, I look at their postseason and see that Pippen averages the same amount of assists per game as Wade but on fewer turnovers again. Compound this with the fact that Pippen didn't need the ball in his hands all the time, I think it's safe to say he was the better passer.

As for Wade's best years blowing Pippen out of the water, I've said Wade's peak is better. I've never said otherwise. But for a career resume, Pippen's is better. Hakeem's peak is better than Duncans, but Duncan has the better career... I mean, Kobe has the better career between he and Wade, but Wade has the better peak. Lots of guys will have better careers than Wade simply because Wade's peak was really short.

Redrum187
05-10-2017, 09:36 PM
Also I'm not using the blocks to argue he's a better defender, Pippen is the better defender you guys are just dismissing Wades defense which I don't agree with. Wade was a very good defender at his peak.

I don't really dismiss his defense. I think during his short peak, he was a good defender. However, Pippen's worse defensive years are still significantly better than anything Wade ever did in his peak. Furthermore, Pippen was the guy assigned to the opposing team's best perimeter player (not MJ) the majority of the time. Wade, in his peak, while still being a good defensive player, didn't guard the opposing team's best perimeter player the majority of the time. We are comparing arguably the greatest wing defender in the history of the game to an above average defender who didn't guard the opposing team's best perimeter player the majority of the time. It's silly.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 09:43 PM
Better Passer rebounder and can shoot the 3 . I would take a prime Pippen over a Prime wade any day of the week

He's a better passer based on what?

Wade averages more assists for their careers.

Pippen was a bad 3 point shooter. 32% on 2 attempts a game is bad.

By your logic Pippen is better than Kobe too.

Wades top 9 years: (no order)

2008-09: 30.2-5-7.5-2.2-1.3 (never been done before) .574 TS% 30.4 PER

2006-07: 27.4-4.7-7.5-2.1-1.2 .583 TS% 28.9 PER

2005-06: 27.2-5.7-6.7-1.9-.8 .577 TS% 27.6 PER

2009-10 : 26.6-4.8-6.5-1.8-1.1 .562 TS% 28 PER

2010-11: 25.5-6.4-4.6-1.5-1.1 .581 TS% 25.6 PER

2004-05: 24.1-5.2-6.8-1.6-1.1 .561 TS% 23.1 PER

2007-08: 24.6-4.2-6.9-1.7-.7 .549 TS% 21.5 PER

2011-12: 22.1-4.8-4.6-1.7-1.3 .559 TS% 26.3 PER

2012-13: 21.2-5-5.1-1.9-.8 .571 TS% 24 PER

Pippens top 9 years: (no order)

1993-94: 22-8.7-5.6-2.9-.8 .544 TS% 23.2 PER

1994-95: 21.4-8.1-5.2-2.9-1.1 .559 TS% 22.6 PER

1991-92: 21-7.7-7-1.9-1.1 .555 TS% 21.5 PER

1996-97: 20.2-6.5-5.7-1.9-.5 .554 TS% 21.3 PER

1995-96: 19.4-6.4-5.9-1.7-.7 .551 TS% 21 PER

1992-93: 18.6-7.7-6.3-2.1-.9 .510 TS% 19.2 PER

1990-91: 17.8-7.3-6.8-2.4-1.1 .561 TS% 20.6 PER

1997-98: 19.1-5.2-5.8-1.8-1 .533 TS% 20.4 PER

1989-90: 16.5-6.7-5.4-2.6-1.2 .528 TS% 16.3 PER

You're taking those Pippen years over Wade? It's not even close, Wade blows him out of the Water. Not to mention he was putting up those numbers most years when defenses planned their whole defensive schemes around him. They used to double him the second he stepped past half court and Wade still put up much bigger numbers on much higher efficiency.

And what's this longevity nonsense I keep hearing about? Nothing about those numbers screams Pippen had longevity over Wade. This really isn't even close, like at all.

Give me the guy with the far, far better Prime that was known for being one of the greatest closers in history and led his team to a championship. Pippen was never near prime Wade.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 09:46 PM
They shot less 3s in the 90's

What's your point? He was a bad shooter regardless. 32% for his career if he would've shot more it would've decreased his efficiency even more.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 09:49 PM
Shooting consists of more than just 3 point shots though, which Pippen is 12 points more per 100 shots greater at than Wade. Pippen had the better midrange game too. Wade was under 39% from 10 feet and beyond for his entire career.

As for being a better passer, I give Pippen the edge. In the regular season it's a wash. Wade has marginally more assists but on more turnovers (and ast/turnover ratio). Since they are a wash in the regular season, I look at their postseason and see that Pippen averages the same amount of assists per game as Wade but on fewer turnovers again. Compound this with the fact that Pippen didn't need the ball in his hands all the time, I think it's safe to say he was the better passer.

As for Wade's best years blowing Pippen out of the water, I've said Wade's peak is better. I've never said otherwise. But for a career resume, Pippen's is better. Hakeem's peak is better than Duncans, but Duncan has the better career... I mean, Kobe has the better career between he and Wade, but Wade has the better peak. Lots of guys will have better careers than Wade simply because Wade's peak was really short.

Who's the all time better player? It's clearly Wade, see my last post for an explanation. Pippens best years weren't much better if at all than Wades worst years of the 9 I listed. When there's that much of a difference it's not even a debate. I would love for you to do the same with Duncan and Hakeem and see if it's near as lopsided.

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 09:59 PM
Thanks, I still haven't seen a good argument for Pippen over Wade so I agree. I just listed like 5 or 6 years from Wade that are for sure better than Pippens best year and 4 more that are arguably better than Pippens best year and I've seen no one claim otherwise. Look, if someone has 8 or so seasons better than another player chances are they're for sure the better player and are ranked higher all time.

You also didn't comment back on your argument basically claiming Pippen is better than Kobe too. It's just not a good argument.

I didn't say Pippen was better than Kobe.

I do agree that people don't give Wade enough credit for D. I would never say he was a bad defender. He took gambles going after steals sometimes, but unlike Allen Iverson, I felt like when he did it, it was the right choice 9/10 times, where as with Iverson, he'd let a guy have a wide-open lane when he didn't get the steal.

Wade is a good defender. Solid. Even had some great defensive seasons. But Pippen, I would argue, is among the best defenders at his position ever.


The blocks argument doesn't hold up to be because there was a negligible difference between the two with respect to their averages. I mean... 0.8 to 0.9 per36 on their careers? And Wade hasn't had his age 36, 37, and 38 seasons to bring that average down like Pippen did. But blocks and steals don't always equate to good defense. Bill Laimbeer, for instance, was a great post defender, but he was more about taking charges from guys coming down the lane, rather than a block. That was frankly even better, because a key scorer picked up a foul and they got possession. Other guys get lots of blocks, but also get lots of fouls and actually negate their blocks, or lack the range/athletcism to follow stretch-bigs out to the wing and let them shoot.

With Wade... I'd say he was a good shot blocker, especially when you consider his size, but Pippen relied on trapping guys and getting in their face to force a bad shot or force them to pass the ball. I've seen Pippen drive a guy into the corner and force them to pick up the ball only to have to wait for a teammate to come to them and pass it out, eating up the shot clock. That is just as effective as a block, because the shot is rushed, and there is no potential for a foul call. He'd also get guys to pick up the dribble and then get up in their face to prevent them from getting a good shot. He was tenacious with stuff like that, and that doesn't shot up in the box scores.


I respect Wade. He's a great talent and was a treat to watch. I was just that impressed with Pippen's defense. And frankly, his offense as well. He had a great offensive game.

Love you loyalty for Wade and love that you are showing up for your guy.

ball4reel
05-10-2017, 10:04 PM
You comparing Wade when he was the Heat to Pippen when he was 2nd to Jordan. You guys can throw all the #s out there you want. Based and my optics on watching them both i would chose Pippen every time. You don't think if Pippen was the #1 option on a team in his prime his #s wouldn't be much better?

ball4reel
05-10-2017, 10:07 PM
I agree with what JasonJohnHorn said. Wade is a great player 3rd best 2 guard i have ever seen play, You have to stick up for your guys and thats what u guys are doing

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 10:14 PM
You comparing Wade when he was the Heat to Pippen when he was 2nd to Jordan. You guys can throw all the #s out there you want. Based and my optics on watching them both i would chose Pippen every time. You don't think if Pippen was the #1 option on a team in his prime his #s wouldn't be much better?

I posted 2 seasons where he was the number 1 guy. Those numbers weren't much better. 1993-94 and 1994-95. Not even close to Wades better years.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 10:18 PM
I didn't say Pippen was better than Kobe.

I do agree that people don't give Wade enough credit for D. I would never say he was a bad defender. He took gambles going after steals sometimes, but unlike Allen Iverson, I felt like when he did it, it was the right choice 9/10 times, where as with Iverson, he'd let a guy have a wide-open lane when he didn't get the steal.

Wade is a good defender. Solid. Even had some great defensive seasons. But Pippen, I would argue, is among the best defenders at his position ever.


The blocks argument doesn't hold up to be because there was a negligible difference between the two with respect to their averages. I mean... 0.8 to 0.9 per36 on their careers? And Wade hasn't had his age 36, 37, and 38 seasons to bring that average down like Pippen did. But blocks and steals don't always equate to good defense. Bill Laimbeer, for instance, was a great post defender, but he was more about taking charges from guys coming down the lane, rather than a block. That was frankly even better, because a key scorer picked up a foul and they got possession. Other guys get lots of blocks, but also get lots of fouls and actually negate their blocks, or lack the range/athletcism to follow stretch-bigs out to the wing and let them shoot.

With Wade... I'd say he was a good shot blocker, especially when you consider his size, but Pippen relied on trapping guys and getting in their face to force a bad shot or force them to pass the ball. I've seen Pippen drive a guy into the corner and force them to pick up the ball only to have to wait for a teammate to come to them and pass it out, eating up the shot clock. That is just as effective as a block, because the shot is rushed, and there is no potential for a foul call. He'd also get guys to pick up the dribble and then get up in their face to prevent them from getting a good shot. He was tenacious with stuff like that, and that doesn't shot up in the box scores.


I respect Wade. He's a great talent and was a treat to watch. I was just that impressed with Pippen's defense. And frankly, his offense as well. He had a great offensive game.

Love you loyalty for Wade and love that you are showing up for your guy.

Sorry wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was saying by your logic that you're pretty much saying Pippen is better than Kobe. Pippen is a better defender and passer than Kobe so with that same logic you're picking Pippen over Wade you're also basically picking Pippen over Kobe. I think in terms of peak you have Wade, Kobe, then Pippen.

I respect your opinion though, always nice to have a debate.

ball4reel
05-10-2017, 10:19 PM
Hey its just my opinion, I've seen both of them play and if i had to start a team and had to choose 1 of them i would pick Pippen. Listen i hated the Bulls back then but i can't deny how great he was. I love watching Wade play and think he is a great player also, Can't go wrong either way

JasonJohnHorn
05-10-2017, 10:49 PM
Sorry wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was saying by your logic that you're pretty much saying Pippen is better than Kobe. Pippen is a better defender and passer than Kobe so with that same logic you're picking Pippen over Wade you're also basically picking Pippen over Kobe. I think in terms of peak you have Wade, Kobe, then Pippen.

I respect your opinion though, always nice to have a debate.

Kobe is... I don't like him. I don't like his style of play, but his talent level... it amazing.


If I were building a team, and I knew I'd have a guy locked in for 20 years, I'd take Wade over Kobe, even if I think Kobe is the better player, because I think Wade is the better teammate. I have a lot of respect for Wade taking a step back to let LBJ take the lead because he knew that is what was best for the team. If that was Kobe, he'd be demanding equal (or more) time with the ball That's Kobe's style.


I'm mixed up about Kobe, because I feel like his hero-ball approach actually took away from his talent. You could never accuse Wade of doing that.

At the end of the day, it's best to have the better teammate rather than the better player, because players don't win games: teams do.

Regardless, it had always been a treat to watch Wade play, and I wish he'd had a healthier career, because (though he is holding his own) I think he could still be putting on a shot right now were his legs a little younger.

Pfeifer
05-10-2017, 11:08 PM
Its Pippen for me but Wade was great. Pippen defense was so nasty.

valade16
05-10-2017, 11:17 PM
IT seems a common sentiment is that Pippen's defense was better relative to Wade's defense to a greater degree than Wade's offense was to Pippen's offense.

I think that notion is wrong. Pippen's best offensive season (without MJ) saw him average 22.0 PPG on .544 TS%. Wade's best offensive season was 30.2 PPG on .574 TS%. He scored 8 more PPG on better efficiency. People don't realize how massive a scoring difference that is.

I very highly doubt Pippen was holding his opponent to 8 less PPG than Wade was. Wade's offense was better than Pippen's to a greater degree than Pippen's D was to Wade's.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 11:32 PM
Kobe is... I don't like him. I don't like his style of play, but his talent level... it amazing.


If I were building a team, and I knew I'd have a guy locked in for 20 years, I'd take Wade over Kobe, even if I think Kobe is the better player, because I think Wade is the better teammate. I have a lot of respect for Wade taking a step back to let LBJ take the lead because he knew that is what was best for the team. If that was Kobe, he'd be demanding equal (or more) time with the ball That's Kobe's style.


I'm mixed up about Kobe, because I feel like his hero-ball approach actually took away from his talent. You could never accuse Wade of doing that.

At the end of the day, it's best to have the better teammate rather than the better player, because players don't win games: teams do.

Regardless, it had always been a treat to watch Wade play, and I wish he'd had a healthier career, because (though he is holding his own) I think he could still be putting on a shot right now were his legs a little younger.

Yea it definitely is a shame when it comes to injuries for Wade. We always hear about the what could've been scenarios but this one may be one of the most underrated, most significant ones of all when it comes to all time rankings and I don't think it's ever mentioned. Maybe because he still ended up solidifying himself as a top 25 or higher player all time even with the injuries.

He had some very key injuries that would've been huge for his legacy:

2004-05: ECF up 3-2 against you guys and he gets injured and you guys come back and take the series. I think they take it otherwise and then they match up with a Spurs team that they had the advantage over imo. That's potentially another championship and finals MVP.

2006-07: leading the MVP race 50 games in and shooters his rotator cuff. Potentially another championship, MVP award, finals MVP, and 3 peat if the 2004-05 injury doesn't happen. Would've had the chance to get through LeBron which would've been huge for both of their legacies and another matchup with the Spurs in the finals so both of these injuries were also potentially huge for Duncan's legacy as there's a chance he has 2 less rings.

Keep in mind he played his whole career with no meniscus in one of his knees.

Wade said himself on an interview last year or the year before had those injuries not happened we would be mentioning him in the same breathe as LeBron and Jordan. Now idk about that lol but I do think he would've passed Kobe all time and majority have Kobe top 10 so that's a huge jump in the standing.

WaDe03
05-10-2017, 11:34 PM
IT seems a common sentiment is that Pippen's defense was better relative to Wade's defense to a greater degree than Wade's offense was to Pippen's offense.

I think that notion is wrong. Pippen's best offensive season (without MJ) saw him average 22.0 PPG on .544 TS%. Wade's best offensive season was 30.2 PPG on .574 TS%. He scored 8 more PPG on better efficiency. People don't realize how massive a scoring difference that is.

I very highly doubt Pippen was holding his opponent to 8 less PPG than Wade was. Wade's offense was better than Pippen's to a greater degree than Pippen's D was to Wade's.

I agree with this and this doesn't factor in the intangibles such as being as clutch as it gets or being able to lead your team to a championship etc.

KingPosey
05-10-2017, 11:48 PM
Wades a much better offensive player and can definitely hold his own defensively. Better passer, scorer, best shot blocking guard ever, led his team to a championship with numbers Pippen would never be able to match. Their peaks aren't even close really, Wade was far better there. The only thing Pippen has on Wade is defense.

Wade was the more efficient scorer and both were efficient. Pippen was a great offensive player, you have solid ground in saying wade was better offensively. But really his usage was also sky high compared to Scottie and that makes a lot of the gap.

But Scottie was just a MUCH better defender and there's nothing you can point to to close that gap.

I think they're actually a weird but great debate to have either way

valade16
05-11-2017, 12:19 AM
Wade was the more efficient scorer and both were efficient. Pippen was a great offensive player, you have solid ground in saying wade was better offensively. But really his usage was also sky high compared to Scottie and that makes a lot of the gap.

But Scottie was just a MUCH better defender and there's nothing you can point to to close that gap.

I think they're actually a weird but great debate to have either way

Eh, in terms of greatest players historically Scottie was good on offense but not elite. The thing about the usage is: Pippen could not have had much higher of a Usage and been effective, his TS% was already slipping when MJ left in 94. Wade not only had a higher volume, but he had a better efficiency.

I don't think people realize how vast the gulf of their scoring is. 8 PPG on 30% higher TS% in their peak season. That's the difference between James Harden and Eric Bledsor scoring-wise this season. Like yeah, Bledsoe is a good scorer and he drops 20 PPG on decent efficiency, but Harden is a 30 PPG scorer on elite efficiency.

That's the difference in their offensive games. Wade's scoring is MUCH better than Pippen's. Like not even close better.

SportsFanatic10
05-11-2017, 02:08 AM
Pippen would smoke Wade 1-on-1 in their primes

I guess he might once or twice if say they played 100 games...lol my god what a ridiculous post.

SportsFanatic10
05-11-2017, 02:14 AM
Look... if you to compare peak... sure... Wade's peak is better. I'm looking at the entire career. So yes... the difference between their offensive game in the context I spoke is minimal.

If you want to say "compare their primes" and Wade's is 4 years shorted than Pippen... Pippen has an edge. If you want to call out my comparison and say its unfair because I'm not comparing primes, and I compare them at the same age, you come up with another reason the comparison is unacceptable to you.

You are 'moving the goal post'.

It doesn't matter what I say, if I provide evidence that support my case, you'll simply ignore the evidence for an arbitrary reason and believe what you want.

I wouldn't say Wade was a better shot blocker, but even if he were, you could clearly say that Pippen was better at get steals and locking down players. Better passer? I'd be curious to hear how you quantify that.

Pippen 5.4 ast per36; Wade 5.8 per36 (and likely to go down as he finishes out his career). So about even.

Turnover: Wade: 3.4/Pippen 2.9.

So Pip's got a better assist-to-turnover ratio. You might say Wade handled the ball more for scoring... sure.. put Pippen played in a system that had a lot more passing the ball, making plays that led to the assist. Either way... stats don't suggest that either was notably better than the other when it came to passing.


As for more 'dynamic'. What does that even mean? Force of power? Force of motion? Motivated or effects stability? These are how that word is defined. You are using an abstract word, a subjective term, to quantify something. I'd say the Bulls were more 'stable' than the Heat when you look at their win totals throughout Pippen's career. A force of power or motion? I'm not sure how you quantify the argument that that describes Wade more than Pippen. Seems like gibberish to me.

Are all your posts as lame as the "joke" in your sig?

Redrum187
05-11-2017, 06:58 AM
IT seems a common sentiment is that Pippen's defense was better relative to Wade's defense to a greater degree than Wade's offense was to Pippen's offense.

I think that notion is wrong. Pippen's best offensive season (without MJ) saw him average 22.0 PPG on .544 TS%. Wade's best offensive season was 30.2 PPG on .574 TS%. He scored 8 more PPG on better efficiency. People don't realize how massive a scoring difference that is.

I very highly doubt Pippen was holding his opponent to 8 less PPG than Wade was. Wade's offense was better than Pippen's to a greater degree than Pippen's D was to Wade's.

Well, lets pretend a Pippen team went head-to-head against a Wade team. Lets say Pippen andWade would be the number 1 scoring option for their respective team. Wade wouldn't ever be guarding Pippen, be it 1st or 2nd option. Pippen will definitely be on Wade if Wade is the best perimeter player.

I don't know if Pippen's defense will make Wade score 8 fewer points than his average... Wade could pull a Westbrook and get those 8 points at all costs with Pippen guarding him, efficiency be damned. So while Pippen may not be making Wade score 8 fewer points than his average, he'll make Wade a hell of a lot more inefficient if he decides to try to reach his average.

This isn't necessarily an endorsement that Pippen is better overall as a player though, just a response to your bolded.

SportsFanatic10
05-11-2017, 07:14 AM
Well, lets pretend a Pippen team went head-to-head against a Wade team. Lets say Pippen andWade would be the number 1 scoring option for their respective team. Wade wouldn't ever be guarding Pippen, be it 1st or 2nd option. Pippen will definitely be on Wade if Wade is the best perimeter player.

I don't know if Pippen's defense will make Wade score 8 fewer points than his average... Wade could pull a Westbrook and get those 8 points at all costs with Pippen guarding him, efficiency be damned. So while Pippen may not be making Wade score 8 fewer points than his average, he'll make Wade a hell of a lot more inefficient if he decides to try to reach his average.

This isn't necessarily an endorsement that Pippen is better overall as a player though, just a response to your bolded.

Wade in his prime was completely unguardable honestly, people already forget what he was like, dude was an amazing athlete and probably the best slasher ever. That first step, and the way he'd split traps and doubles was ridiculous.

WaDe03
05-11-2017, 10:07 AM
Well, lets pretend a Pippen team went head-to-head against a Wade team. Lets say Pippen andWade would be the number 1 scoring option for their respective team. Wade wouldn't ever be guarding Pippen, be it 1st or 2nd option. Pippen will definitely be on Wade if Wade is the best perimeter player.

I don't know if Pippen's defense will make Wade score 8 fewer points than his average... Wade could pull a Westbrook and get those 8 points at all costs with Pippen guarding him, efficiency be damned. So while Pippen may not be making Wade score 8 fewer points than his average, he'll make Wade a hell of a lot more inefficient if he decides to try to reach his average.

This isn't necessarily an endorsement that Pippen is better overall as a player though, just a response to your bolded.

Wade wouldn't have a problem guarding Pippen. The team led by Wade would definitely win and I believe Wade would be able to get his 30. Wade could just put Scottie in the PNR and force a switch or attack off of it. Kobe said when he guarded Wade, Wade would just disappear after he put you in the PnR.

Is Scottie a much better defender than Kawhi and prime LeBron? I used to watch Wade and LeBron kill each other in head to head matchups and in Wades last year on the Heat at the age of 34 he shot over 60% from the field in both games against the Spurs and Kawhi guarded him (61.5% & 75%)

WaDe03
05-11-2017, 10:09 AM
Wade in his prime was completely unguardable honestly, people already forget what he was like, dude was an amazing athlete and probably the best slasher ever. That first step, and the way he'd split traps and doubles was ridiculous.

If prime Wade or must younger Wade period were playing in the NBA today, with as much as social media has blown up in the last few years, the world would be going crazy at the things he was doing.

mightybosstone
05-11-2017, 11:52 AM
Wade's peak crushes anything Pippen was capable of over his career. And that's before you factor in Wade leading the Heat to its first title as an alpha dog in one of the single greatest postseason and Finals performances in league history. Pippen's team success and defense deserves him being in the top 25 conversation, but when you boil it down to skill and production, it's a pretty easy decision for me.

Kyben36
05-11-2017, 12:14 PM
if wade were a 2nd option during his prime would we view the whole 2nd option thing differently? You put prime wade with prime lebron for multiple years, do they lose a championship?

what was lebron/wade. Wade and shaq (unless you view shaq as the #2 there which no)

wade is a great player, but he wasnt necessarily a sidekick #2, he had to have the ball. To me, that does make you a #2, it makes you a #1 who is forced to play 2nd fiddle.

I think pippen was a better second option. Wade really needed to be the primary option.

The easy answer to this question is wade is the better player. And its not really debatable.

Wade could bring championships as a top option, where as pippen probably not.

FlashBolt
05-11-2017, 12:16 PM
Pippen never had to guard legitimate perimeter players that we are seeing today. The best perimeter player was on his team... Let's see how he guards LeBron, KD, Harden, Melo, PG, Kawhi... The best players back then were PF's/C's.. not guards or perimeter players. So ask yourself, how the hell can you compare Scottie's defense against much weaker perimeter players and act as if he's doing it against the best perimeter players we've ever seen in today's era?

Your arguments are lacking in regards to Scottie's numbers. He's not a better player than Wade just like how he's not better than Kobe. But with YOUR arguments, you're basically arguing Scottie>Kobe. Scottie was a very great player. Wade at his peak put up a SG performance that would rank as the 2nd greatest SG. Scottie as the first option? Stop. This guy shot under 40% in their last three Bulls rings but you're telling me he could've carried a team by himself? LMAO. De-Loo-Shun-Al.

WaDe03
05-11-2017, 12:37 PM
what was lebron/wade. Wade and shaq (unless you view shaq as the #2 there which no)

wade is a great player, but he wasnt necessarily a sidekick #2, he had to have the ball. To me, that does make you a #2, it makes you a #1 who is forced to play 2nd fiddle.

I think pippen was a better second option. Wade really needed to be the primary option.

The easy answer to this question is wade is the better player. And its not really debatable.

Wade could bring championships as a top option, where as pippen probably not.

Prime Wade wasn't with a LeBron.

Wade was easily the main guy when it was him and Shaq, is that a joke?

I agree Wade is clearly the better player.

valade16
05-11-2017, 07:24 PM
Which player is better?

Player A: better defender, rebounder, passer, shooter.

Player B: better scorer.

This thread leads me to believe because player A is superior in more categories he is better, regardless of how much better player B was at his one superior skill.

For reference player A is Bill Walton and Player B is Shaq.

You can't break it down to which player is better at more things because they may not be much better or the other player could be massively better at a few things.

WaDe03
05-11-2017, 07:32 PM
Which player is better?

Player A: better defender, rebounder, passer, shooter.

Player B: better scorer.

This thread leads me to believe because player A is superior in more categories he is better, regardless of how much better player B was at his one superior skill.

For reference player A is Bill Walton and Player B is Shaq.

You can't break it down to which player is better at more things because they may not be much better or the other player could be massively better at a few things.

Good post this is the point I've been trying to make.

Better defender, passer, same shooter, better rebounder: Pippen

Better scorer: Jordan

By this logic: Pippen > Jordan

We know better than this don't we?

Redrum187
05-11-2017, 07:43 PM
Which player is better?

Player A: better defender, rebounder, passer, shooter.

Player B: better scorer.

This thread leads me to believe because player A is superior in more categories he is better, regardless of how much better player B was at his one superior skill.

For reference player A is Bill Walton and Player B is Shaq.

You can't break it down to which player is better at more things because they may not be much better or the other player could be massively better at a few things.

That is a fair point. And for the record, we agree peak Wade is superior to peak Pippen, but playing devil's advocate for a minute, you're argument is that Wade's scoring was leaps and bounds greater than Pippens but don't give the same credit to Pippen's defense over Wade's.

If Pippen averaged 5+ more shot attemps (or however many more shots Wade took per game), he still wouldn't be as efficient of a scorer as Wade, but the gap wouldn't be 8 points... The gap between their defenses would still be very far apart in favor of Pippen... and then we could take into account how Pippen's defense would make Wade be noticeably less efficient.

Redrum187
05-11-2017, 07:44 PM
Good post this is the point I've been trying to make.

Better defender, passer, same shooter, better rebounder: Pippen

Better scorer: Jordan

By this logic: Pippen > Jordan

We know better than this don't we?

I'm curious, do you think Wade would make the superior sidekick too? Or do you feel Pippen may be the better sidekick but definitely not the greater overall player?

WaDe03
05-11-2017, 07:48 PM
I'm curious, do you think Wade would make the superior sidekick too? Or do you feel Pippen may be the better sidekick but definitely not the greater overall player?

I can't really answer that question because we didn't see a young/prime Wade as a sidekick. The closest thing to it was 2010-11, I think Wade was their best player and others think LeBron was and it's debatable. That season was easily better than any of Pippens. 2011-12 was also probably better.

Storch
05-11-2017, 08:05 PM
I'll take Scottie thx

valade16
05-11-2017, 08:11 PM
That is a fair point. And for the record, we agree peak Wade is superior to peak Pippen, but playing devil's advocate for a minute, you're argument is that Wade's scoring was leaps and bounds greater than Pippens but don't give the same credit to Pippen's defense over Wade's.

If Pippen averaged 5+ more shot attemps (or however many more shots Wade took per game), he still wouldn't be as efficient of a scorer as Wade, but the gap wouldn't be 8 points... The gap between their defenses would still be very far apart in favor of Pippen... and then we could take into account how Pippen's defense would make Wade be noticeably less efficient.

Not only would he not be as efficient as Wade (because well he wasn't even as efficient as Wade on his 5 less shot attempts), he'd be flat out inefficient.

When his shot and per game were at 16 or so his TS% was almost always at 55.5-56%. The year he shot the ball almost 18 times a games when MJ retired his TS% immediately dropped to 54.4%. We can see that even taking an extra 2 shots per game caused a dip in his efficiency, imagine a further 5 shots?

But yes, Pippen's defense was far better than Wade's. But again, Pippen on Wade is not going to cause Wade to score 8 less PPG and even if he drops his efficiency, it won't be to the level of Pippen if he had a similar offensive load. Wade wasn't a turnstile on defense, I'm not even sure Pippen could maintain his 20 PPG on 55% TS if Wade guarded him.

Jeffy25
05-11-2017, 08:13 PM
They are just so different with such different careers with different expectations.

I'd rather have Pippen if I have another great player. I'd rather have Wade if Pippen had to be my best player.


I feel like Pippen could have been molded into about anything depending on the team and circumstance. If he had to be a first option for 15 years, he probably could have topped 22-23 PPG several times, and been fairly efficient while being a great defender.

But I can't think of any player who accepted and excelled in the role as the number 2 option like Scottie took.


I have them about equal all-time, Wade maybe slightly ahead, though barely.

But if I had to choose who I would take to start their careers? Depends who else I have on my roster. Scottie is easier to build around, but Wade could at least carry my bad team away from embarrassment. It's a hard question to answer.

Jeffy25
05-11-2017, 08:21 PM
speaking of, what if we had both players for their entire careers and put them with their average squads throughout their careers (no Bron, no Rodman, no Whiteside, just the average talent around them). Would they have won a few chips together? The perimeter defense and scoring would be pretty dominant.

Or rather, just pick Wade up and put him in Jordan's place 20 years earlier.

WaDe03
05-11-2017, 08:25 PM
I'll say this about Wade as a 2nd option like Pippen was, had Wade been LeBrons 2nd option his whole career throughout his young years and prime years excluding his rookie season I think he would've average what he averaged their first year together, at worst every year. That's far better than Pippen.

WaDe03
05-11-2017, 08:27 PM
speaking of, what if we had both players for their entire careers and put them with their average squads throughout their careers (no Bron, no Rodman, no Whiteside, just the average talent around them). Would they have won a few chips together? The perimeter defense and scoring would be pretty dominant.

Or rather, just pick Wade up and put him in Jordan's place 20 years earlier.

Yes, swap prime Wade with Jordan and I think they win at least 3 rings and if you factor in the 8 peat Jordan would've had it he didn't retire they may even get more. Wade is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, ask the great Tim Hroger who trained Jordan Wade and Kobe.

valade16
05-11-2017, 08:36 PM
speaking of, what if we had both players for their entire careers and put them with their average squads throughout their careers (no Bron, no Rodman, no Whiteside, just the average talent around them). Would they have won a few chips together? The perimeter defense and scoring would be pretty dominant.

Or rather, just pick Wade up and put him in Jordan's place 20 years earlier.

That's a good question. If Wade were drafted instead of MJ he'd be about as close an approximation to MJ as you can get so the team could still develop into the juggernaught we saw. The problem is with Wade's style which caused him to start breaking down relatively early. He was very clearly on the physical decline in his early 30's, which was the time MJ came back from his retirement and won 3 more titles.

I think they could have won some titles together where MJ had his first 3-peat (don't know if they get 3), but I don't think he could have held up during the Bulls second run so they'd definitely have less titles.

MarkieMark48
05-12-2017, 12:45 PM
Yes, swap prime Wade with Jordan and I think they win at least 3 rings and if you factor in the 8 peat Jordan would've had it he didn't retire they may even get more. Wade is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, ask the great Tim Hroger who trained Jordan Wade and Kobe.


that's definitely no guarantee, but fun to think

papipapsmanny
05-12-2017, 02:23 PM
Definitely Wade, of course most Lebron fans (even when they first joined) ran with the narrative that Wade wasn't that good anymore and same with Bosh after that first year in Miami.

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 02:35 PM
You guys are overrating pippen's defense here. He's no doubt the best perimeter defender but we need to account for the fact that kawhi is possibly going to end up as the goat. Look at who they are guarding. Pippen guarding clyde or dominique wilkins or reggie miller is not the same as guarding lebron james, carmelo, harden, durant, pg, kawhi, and all the insane amount of perimeter players we have today. The floor spacing wasn't there as well meaning that it was much easier to guard one guy due to less pick-and-rolls being used. It's very simple: Pippen was the best perimeter defender and likely still is for his body of work. But when we're comparing who they were guarding, that matters. Pippen's defense would be much different in this time in which he's forced to chase perimeter players around the court. Players who are much better than the talent back then. Who was the best perimeter player? Jordan. Who's team was he on? His own. Last i checked, pippen was also on some amazing defensive teams with guys like horace grant and dennis rodman. Kawhi would probably be the greatest perimeter defender if he was playing during pippen's time. Kawhi+jordan = devastating. Two of the largest hands in basketball. Have fun!

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 02:37 PM
Definitely Wade, of course most Lebron fans (even when they first joined) ran with the narrative that Wade wasn't that good anymore and same with Bosh after that first year in Miami.

He wasn't. that's not a narrative but facts. Wade was already on his way to declining after the first season and it happened very soon. I think Wade sat out an insane amount of games in those seasons after and it was LeBron who pretty much carried them for awhile. Then look at the Spurs series. Where was Wade? Not doing much.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 02:41 PM
Definitely Wade, of course most Lebron fans (even when they first joined) ran with the narrative that Wade wasn't that good anymore and same with Bosh after that first year in Miami.

Yea I remember those days lol.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 02:43 PM
He wasn't. that's not a narrative but facts. Wade was already on his way to declining after the first season and it happened very soon. I think Wade sat out an insane amount of games in those seasons after and it was LeBron who pretty much carried them for awhile. Then look at the Spurs series. Where was Wade? Not doing much.

Where was LeBron in 2011? Not doing much. It goes both ways but yea he was bad in 2014 playing on basically half a leg. He was huge in both of the championships they won and would've been huge in 2011 and won Finaks MVP, it just didn't happen.

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 02:45 PM
Where was LeBron in 2011? Not doing much. It goes both ways but yea he was bad in 2014 playing on basically half a leg. He was huge in both of the championships they won and would've been huge in 2011 and won Finaks MVP, it just didn't happen.

This isn't about LeBron but Wade... so you deflecting back to LeBron doesn't prove anything. Wade was already on his way declining after year 1 together. He was never the same Wade again. That's not fiction.

BKLYNpigeon
05-12-2017, 02:53 PM
Is wade putting his tail between his legs and going back to Miami next season?

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 02:57 PM
This isn't about LeBron but Wade... so you deflecting back to LeBron doesn't prove anything. Wade was already on his way declining after year 1 together. He was never the same Wade again. That's not fiction.

But he was still a good player and huge in their championship runs so declining or not, it's a mute point.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 02:58 PM
Is wade putting his tail between his legs and going back to Miami next season?

You get better with every post, if he doesn't join a contender then I'm all for him going back. Chicago is a terrible organization from the top down.

But, none of this matters because that's not what the thread is about. Can you make a legit argument for Pippen over Wade? I didn't think so, no one else can either though so don't feel bad.

BKLYNpigeon
05-12-2017, 03:25 PM
You get better with every post, if he doesn't join a contender then I'm all for him going back. Chicago is a terrible organization from the top down.

But, none of this matters because that's not what the thread is about. Can you make a legit argument for Pippen over Wade? I didn't think so, no one else can either though so don't feel bad.

Wade should go to the Bucks.

It depends on how you look at the game. Comparing Wade and Pippen is like saying, Jordan or Lebron? Its a different era and different rules. Personally I equate offense as much as defense. In the NBA you are playing half the game on offense and half the game on defense usually. Its not just looking at who had the most steals or blocks in their career, its all the little things you do on defense you can't equate into numbers. its the hustle and grit.

I'll take Pippen by a hair, but its close.

Jeffy25
05-12-2017, 03:41 PM
Yes, swap prime Wade with Jordan and I think they win at least 3 rings and if you factor in the 8 peat Jordan would've had it he didn't retire they may even get more. Wade is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan, ask the great Tim Hroger who trained Jordan Wade and Kobe.

I can't buy this for a second, and the appeal to authority doesn't sell it.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 04:31 PM
Wade should go to the Bucks.

It depends on how you look at the game. Comparing Wade and Pippen is like saying, Jordan or Lebron? Its a different era and different rules. Personally I equate offense as much as defense. In the NBA you are playing half the game on offense and half the game on defense usually. Its not just looking at who had the most steals or blocks in their career, its all the little things you do on defense you can't equate into numbers. its the hustle and grit.

I'll take Pippen by a hair, but its close.

It's not Jordan vs LeBron at all imo when it comes to level of play. I posted the numbers earlier, Wade is the clear cut better player. We can say "Pippen was a better defender and rebounder and Wade was the better scorer so I'll take Pippen." This is literally the only argument I've seen someone make as to why it's Pippen over Wade, if that's your argument then you better stick to it and also take Pippen over Kobe and Jordan because this is the logic being used.

It's really not a close debate, people are only questioning it because Pippen won 6 rings, had he only won 3 I don't even think we're having the debate. He was never at any point in his career good enough to lead a team to a championship as a main guy, he was arguably worse his 2 years as a first option than he was all other years as a 2nd option.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 04:33 PM
I can't buy this for a second, and the appeal to authority doesn't sell it.

It's fine if you can't buy it, he's carried a team to a championship before. If he doesn't get injured in 04-05 and 06-07 there's a good chance he has a 3 peat as the lead guy.

FlashBolt
05-12-2017, 04:34 PM
But he was still a good player and huge in their championship runs so declining or not, it's a mute point.

I think you meant moot point :)

Anyways, I never said he wasn't still a good player. He was still a top 15-20 player. But it's undeniable that he was declining. Even though James had that one bad series, he wasn't declining. Wade was and that was something he couldn't prevent. I mean, does James leave Miami if Wade was still at his prime? They most likely win 3/4 championships and would still be giving the Warriors a run for their money.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 04:56 PM
I think you meant moot point :)

Anyways, I never said he wasn't still a good player. He was still a top 15-20 player. But it's undeniable that he was declining. Even though James had that one bad series, he wasn't declining. Wade was and that was something he couldn't prevent. I mean, does James leave Miami if Wade was still at his prime? They most likely win 3/4 championships and would still be giving the Warriors a run for their money.

Yea meant moot lol.

Prime Wade LeBron and Bosh on the same team would be a nightmare for this Warriors team imo.

But yea Wade was declining, doesn't help he played their last 2 years on one leg thanks to injury too. I was just commenting because I had forgot all about the LeBron fans on here tearing Wade and Bosh apart to try and hype LeBron up even more even though they both played huge parts in the championships.

papipapsmanny
05-12-2017, 05:52 PM
This isn't about LeBron but Wade... so you deflecting back to LeBron doesn't prove anything. Wade was already on his way declining after year 1 together. He was never the same Wade again. That's not fiction.

Oh give he a break, he declined all the way down to the role player he was in the 2015 season where he averaged 21.5 points on 47% shooting. Something Pippen only beat once in his career.

Wade was a top 5 player in the league through the 2013 season. He has declined all the way down to all star level since then

effen5
05-12-2017, 06:26 PM
Pippen was a better overall player. Wade was just the better scorer.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 06:44 PM
Pippen was a better overall player. Wade was just the better scorer.

Wade is just the better player period. It's not up for debate as you can tell by the terrible arguments for Pippen. Pippen could never do what Wade did at his best.

By your logic, Pippen > Jordan

effen5
05-12-2017, 06:45 PM
Wade is just the better player period. It's not up for debate as you can tell by the terrible arguments for Pippen. Pippen could never do what Wade did at his best.

By your logic, Pippen > Jordan

Have you ever seen pippen play? How old are you?

Jordan was a better defender than pippen. There is a reason why he won a DPOY.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 06:49 PM
Have you ever seen pippen play? How old are you?

Jordan was a better defender than pippen. There is a reason why he won a DPOY.

I've seen Pippen play and I have more than enough knowledge to know he isn't better than Wade. I'll take Pippens defense over Jordan. Can you use any type of facts to back your claims that Pippen is better than Wade (there are none) or that Jordan is the better defender?

effen5
05-12-2017, 06:51 PM
I've seen Pippen play and I have more than enough knowledge to know he isn't better than Wade. I'll take Pippens defense over Jordan. Can you use any type of facts to back your claims that Pippen is better than Wade (there are none) or that Jordan is the better defender?

So how old are you? Did you watch him the tail end of his career with Portland and rockets or in his prime from 93-98?

Jordan > pippen on defense

Pippen > wade on defense


https://youtu.be/q7jOHNuWnC0

I mean seriously that's the only play I can think of from the playoffs since we lost.

effen5
05-12-2017, 06:56 PM
Wade 3x all defense second team
Pippen 8x all defense first team

effen5
05-12-2017, 06:56 PM
Go watch Jordan play defense early in his career. He was a monster.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 06:58 PM
So how old are you? Did you watch him the tail end of his career with Portland and rockets or in his prime from 93-98?

Jordan > pippen on defense

Pippen > wade on defense


https://youtu.be/q7jOHNuWnC0

I mean seriously that's the only play I can think of from the playoffs since we lost.

He's 35, what do you expect? He can't give it his all at all times the current Wade has nothing to do with the debate.

Do you remember the 26-11-8 from that game and the fact that he was the only player that had a positive impact on the game?

I'm 27 and I know for a fact you can't come up with a legit debate proving Pippen > Wade as players.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 07:00 PM
Wade 3x all defense second team
Pippen 8x all defense first team

I'm not arguing Wades defense was better, Wade was the far better player though. He had so much more impact on games and Pippen was never as good as even 2nd year in the league Wade. He could never carry a team like Wade.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 07:00 PM
Is Pippen better than Kobe and LeBron too? Pippen is a better defender than both.

effen5
05-12-2017, 07:01 PM
He's 35, what do you expect? He can't give it his all at all times the current Wade has nothing to do with the debate.

Do you remember the 26-11-8 from that game and the fact that he was the only player that had a positive impact on the game?

I'm 27 and I know for a fact you can't come up with a legit debate proving Pippen > Wade as players.

It depends on what type of players you want to have...I rather have a player that's overall better like pippen than a better scorer like wade. But it's close and there is no wrong answer.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 07:02 PM
Wade top 3 in MVP and top 3 in DPOY in the same year. I would imagine Scottie never came close to that. Jordan is the only other guard to do it.

No one has ever had the stat line Wade put up in 2008-09.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 07:03 PM
It depends on what type of players you want to have...I rather have a player that's overall better like pippen than a better scorer like wade. But it's close and there is no wrong answer.

It's not really close though is the thing. If you really dig in to it it's not close. Some of Wades worst years rival Pippens best.

effen5
05-12-2017, 07:08 PM
It's not really close though is the thing. If you really dig in to it it's not close. Some of Wades worst years rival Pippens best.

Well you kinda expect that don't you? Wade had the opportunity to actually lead a team majority of his career before Lebron.

Pippen only had a year and a half as the leader until Jordan came back. I would expect if pippen had more years as a leader that he could put up similar numbers. He definitely had the talent to do it.

WaDe03
05-12-2017, 07:14 PM
Well you kinda expect that don't you? Wade had the opportunity to actually lead a team majority of his career before Lebron.

Pippen only had a year and a half as the leader until Jordan came back. I would expect if pippen had more years as a leader that he could put up similar numbers. He definitely had the talent to do it.

I don't think he could've done much more ham he did, the 2 years without Jordan he was actually worse and he still had very solid players next to him.

Wade from his 2nd year in the league was already a better player and leader than Pippen that's why I'm saying you really need to dig in to it.

It's like a debate I had with Valade16 in another thread, one of his replies was along the lines of "wow I just looked up Wades numbers and I actually had no idea he was this good." I feel like there are a lot of people like that so I'm here to educate lol.

Pippen should've been able to do better in those 2 seasons than 2nd year in the league did and an injury to Wade in the ECF when they were up 2-0 actually probably cost them a championship in 2004-05. He was that dominant even at a very young age.

Imagine a 2nd year or 3rd year player doing what Wade did in 06, they would instantly be declared the next best thing. They were already saying he was the next Jordan, unfortunately injuries got in the way. I keep saying this but, Wade was going to take this league over if it weren't for injury.

Jeffy25
05-12-2017, 08:29 PM
It's fine if you can't buy it, he's carried a team to a championship before. If he doesn't get injured in 04-05 and 06-07 there's a good chance he has a 3 peat as the lead guy.

I know you like Wade, but there is no way he is beating those Spurs teams, and that's even if he can get past Bron in 07. 05 is it's own discussion.

WaDe03
05-13-2017, 12:31 AM
I know you like Wade, but there is no way he is beating those Spurs teams, and that's even if he can get past Bron in 07. 05 is it's own discussion.

They had those Spurs teams number. They had no one that could stop Wade or Shaq. They would've got past LeBron and that would've been Wades first regular season MVP award as he was leading 50 games in before injury.

I'm not saying they for sure win but I like their chances, I bet they win 1 at the least.

FlashBolt
05-14-2017, 11:20 AM
Wade top 3 in MVP and top 3 in DPOY in the same year. I would imagine Scottie never came close to that. Jordan is the only other guard to do it.

No one has ever had the stat line Wade put up in 2008-09.

Pippen was close.

93-94, Pippen was top 3 in MVP voting. He was top 4 in DPOY voting but c'mon, dude had to compete against Dikembe/Hakeem. Wade doesn't sniff DPOY votes against those guys either.

WaDe03
05-14-2017, 12:23 PM
Pippen was close.

93-94, Pippen was top 3 in MVP voting. He was top 4 in DPOY voting but c'mon, dude had to compete against Dikembe/Hakeem. Wade doesn't sniff DPOY votes against those guys either.

So he never did it.

FlashBolt
05-14-2017, 12:29 PM
So he never did it.

That's not what you said. Read.

"I would imagine Scottie never came close to that."

I replied saying that he did come very close to it but also provided context that Wade wouldn't have cracked top three either considering the defensive competition Pippen had to go up against.

So no, he didn't do it but that's not what you asked.

WaDe03
05-14-2017, 12:31 PM
That's not what you said. Read.

"I would imagine Scottie never came close to that."

I replied saying that he did come very close to it but also provided context that Wade wouldn't have cracked top three either considering the defensive competition Pippen had to go up against.

So no, he didn't do it but that's not what you asked.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Is still Wade >>>>> Pippen and there's literally no debate for Pippen.

GREATNESS ONE
05-14-2017, 12:46 PM
I'm still taking Scottie.

WaDe03
05-14-2017, 12:59 PM
I'm still taking Scottie.

That's fine, I'll take Wade and he'll lead the team to championships.

That's pretty much like me saying I'll take Pippen over Kobe.

CTCUBBIES
05-14-2017, 04:19 PM
Pippen is my favorite player ever but I cannot think of any way to argue that he is better than Wade.

Side note - I saw Wade in Los Angeles this morning. No way he is even close to the listed 6'4. Wouldn't be surprised if he is closer to 6'2 or even 6'1. After seeing his true size I have even more respect for his game and how athletic he is.

FlashBolt
05-14-2017, 10:56 PM
Pippen is my favorite player ever but I cannot think of any way to argue that he is better than Wade.

Side note - I saw Wade in Los Angeles this morning. No way he is even close to the listed 6'4. Wouldn't be surprised if he is closer to 6'2 or even 6'1. After seeing his true size I have even more respect for his game and how athletic he is.

I saw him twice in NY. He's definitely taller than 6'1. Other than that, it's too close to tell. With basketball sneakers, I can see how he's 6'4. I'd say on feet, he's probably 6'2-6'3ish. I saw him close to leBron. He's not as short as you're saying.

Heediot
05-15-2017, 05:54 AM
Pippen was close.

93-94, Pippen was top 3 in MVP voting. He was top 4 in DPOY voting but c'mon, dude had to compete against Dikembe/Hakeem. Wade doesn't sniff DPOY votes against those guys either.

yeah the 90's were stacked with 5's that can d up. Admiral, Zo, Ewing were also legit all d guys. Shaq was solid too.

Heediot
05-15-2017, 05:57 AM
Pippen is like Draymond. One of the best glue guys and complementary players ever. As a number one option though, I think he's like Bosh a guy that can put up decent numbers through volume, but isn't an elite scorer. He is a better scorer vs. Dray though, but Wade has a big edge as a go to guy.