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View Full Version : CP3 and Melo: Should they be viewed in similar ways?



JasonJohnHorn
05-09-2017, 04:58 PM
Both have been on teams that seemingly underachieved on a regular basis. I think there is a huge difference between the two, but I've read many feel they should be lumped together.



What are your thoughts?

FlashBolt
05-09-2017, 05:00 PM
CP3 is a much better player. No comparison. In terms of them underachieving - it's not usually because of Chris Paul that his teams underachieved. Realistically, how far could that Clippers have gone with just CP3+DeAndre? Not that far. He's had a much more difficult road and he's usually performing at a high level in the playoffs. But, CP3 will go down as a top five PG. Melo probably won't go down as a better player than CP3.

jimm120
05-09-2017, 05:25 PM
Paul is a much better player, but that's no slight on melo either. Great player.

Paul has definitely had more talent. But his teammates (and himself) would get injured often.

But if what you imply is that either should be hated? Nah. That simple. No need to.

Not everyone can advance. Melo had bad to average teammates while Paul had better teammates but oft injured and in the west the whole time

Chronz
05-09-2017, 05:26 PM
F no. Have you seen how easily Melo goes ghost vs how effective cp3 has made his teams offenses (with Blake injured mind you) vs even the best of defenses?

You ask Pop which he fears more and his laugh will say plenty

WaDe03
05-09-2017, 06:07 PM
No CP3 is the much better player. Neither won anything, their biggest regret will probably be not teaming up with Wade sensei and learning how to win.

FOXHOUND
05-09-2017, 06:39 PM
Both have been on teams that seemingly underachieved on a regular basis. I think there is a huge difference between the two, but I've read many feel they should be lumped together.



What are your thoughts?

Would be curious to see this list of Melo's teams that have underachieved.

Paul has had far, far better rosters that have underachieved far more. While he has had injured teammates some years, that doesn't fly for 2014 and 2015. Every series that his Clippers have won have needed to go game 7 and their overall record in the first round with Paul is 19-21.

The first series they won together wasn't even won by the starters. Nick Young, Kenyon Martin, Mo Williams, Reggie Evans and Eric Bledsoe won them that series, in the end. They started the 4th down 1 and gained an 8 point lead by the time the star trio was worked back in with 6:16 left. Overall, a starter did not score a point in that 4th until Paul hit 2 intentional foul FT's with 28 seconds left and the Clippers up 7 points. They won the 4th 27-16.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201205130MEM.html#q4

Melo has also had injured teammates in the playoffs - far more, by my count - while he has had an insanely high volume of playing the eventual conference or NBA champs. Melo drew the 05 Spurs, the 07 Spurs, the 08 Lakers (conf), the 09 Lakers in WCF and the 12 Heat. That's three NBA champs in the 1st round, a 4th in the WCF and a Finals appearing Lakers in another first round. Those Denver postseasons were at ages 20 and 22-24. You can add the WCF Wolves in his rookie season and the ECF Celtics in his first season in NY as other very tough first round draws.

Melo has played with an All-NBA teammate three times in his entire career. Billups made it in 08-09 (3rd team), Amare in 10-11 (2nd team) and Tyson in 12-13 (3rd team). Amare and Tyson were hurt for those postseasons. Billups was also hurt for 11. Amare, Shumpert, Lin and even Baron Davis were hurt for the 2012 series vs Miami. Kenyon Martin was hurt during the Nuggets 06 series vs the Clippers. He also missed the entire 06-07 season while JR Smith was hurt for their 07 series vs the Spurs. In 09-10, George Karl got cancer and missed most of the 2nd half of the season, including their playoff series vs Utah.

The one time Melo had a strong team, the 08-09 Nuggets, they blew through right into the WCF. They beat Paul's Hornets in 5 games, including a 58-point drubbing in game 4. They beat prime Dirk's Mavs in 5 games, despite Dirk's efforts averaging 34 PTS, 11 REB, 4 AST while shooting .534/.395/.919 to try and at least extend it.

To me, their careers should be looked at like so.

1) Chris Paul has had some of the most talented teams in the NBA for years and, despite some years being hampered by injuries, ultimately had postseasons of good health where they could have won and didn't. The series in 14 vs OKC where Paul blew the game late in game 4 to allow for OKC to tie the series instead of taking a commanding 3-1 is a bad look. Blowing a 3-1 lead vs the Rockets the next year, including a blowing a 13-lead entering the 4th in game 5 when James Harden was benched while losing the 4th quarter 40-15, is even worse.

2) Melo had his first contending level team in 08-09, which he promptly led to the 2nd seed in the west and cruised into the WCF. They ran into the experienced Lakers who buzzsawed them, and had them outmatched from coaching to talent. Melo struggled in his first deep playoff run at the age of 24, like most players do. Then, he never had a legit team ever again.

Chris Paul has had teams talented enough to do things where they/he fell short. Safe to say, he couldn't get it done. Despite the Clippers being "cursed", they had extreme talent and a HOF coach so that's not really an excuse in real life.

Carmelo Anthony hasn't had teams good enough to contend, so hard to judge whether or not he ever could have during his prime. Part of that can be viewed as his own fault, since he wanted to go to the Knicks to win and wasn't patient enough to wait for FA to maximize the teams talent with him. The Knicks are also the Knicks lol. Still, the way Melo carried that Knicks team in 2012-13 was a level of individual dominance that Paul never achieved. The Knicks finished with the 3rd highest ORating that season, 1 spot ahead of Paul's Clippers. This was despite Melo's offensive help being JR Smith, Raymond Felton, old Kidd/Prigioni, Iman Shumpert and Tyson Chandler. Paul had Blake Griffin, Jamal Crawford, Eric Bledsoe, Caron Butler and DeAndre Jordan.

If you put that 2012-13 Melo on those 2008-09 Nuggets, I think it's possible that he could have won a championship. Or, at least came close.

For Chris Paul, I'm not sure how much more help you can give someone. I don't know what Paul needed to reach the WCF, let alone the Finals.

ManningToTyree
05-10-2017, 12:18 AM
Paul is the better player but has had more help. Paul should be viewed as the better player all time it's not even close but melo gets more of a pass for never getting to the promise land.

aman_13
05-10-2017, 12:33 AM
Not even close.

lol, please
05-10-2017, 12:34 AM
Would be curious to see this list of Melo's teams that have underachieved.

Paul has had far, far better rosters that have underachieved far more. While he has had injured teammates some years, that doesn't fly for 2014 and 2015. Every series that his Clippers have won have needed to go game 7 and their overall record in the first round with Paul is 19-21.

The first series they won together wasn't even won by the starters. Nick Young, Kenyon Martin, Mo Williams, Reggie Evans and Eric Bledsoe won them that series, in the end. They started the 4th down 1 and gained an 8 point lead by the time the star trio was worked back in with 6:16 left. Overall, a starter did not score a point in that 4th until Paul hit 2 intentional foul FT's with 28 seconds left and the Clippers up 7 points. They won the 4th 27-16.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201205130MEM.html#q4

Melo has also had injured teammates in the playoffs - far more, by my count - while he has had an insanely high volume of playing the eventual conference or NBA champs. Melo drew the 05 Spurs, the 07 Spurs, the 08 Lakers (conf), the 09 Lakers in WCF and the 12 Heat. That's three NBA champs in the 1st round, a 4th in the WCF and a Finals appearing Lakers in another first round. Those Denver postseasons were at ages 20 and 22-24. You can add the WCF Wolves in his rookie season and the ECF Celtics in his first season in NY as other very tough first round draws.

Melo has played with an All-NBA teammate three times in his entire career. Billups made it in 08-09 (3rd team), Amare in 10-11 (2nd team) and Tyson in 12-13 (3rd team). Amare and Tyson were hurt for those postseasons. Billups was also hurt for 11. Amare, Shumpert, Lin and even Baron Davis were hurt for the 2012 series vs Miami. Kenyon Martin was hurt during the Nuggets 06 series vs the Clippers. He also missed the entire 06-07 season while JR Smith was hurt for their 07 series vs the Spurs. In 09-10, George Karl got cancer and missed most of the 2nd half of the season, including their playoff series vs Utah.

The one time Melo had a strong team, the 08-09 Nuggets, they blew through right into the WCF. They beat Paul's Hornets in 5 games, including a 58-point drubbing in game 4. They beat prime Dirk's Mavs in 5 games, despite Dirk's efforts averaging 34 PTS, 11 REB, 4 AST while shooting .534/.395/.919 to try and at least extend it.

To me, their careers should be looked at like so.

1) Chris Paul has had some of the most talented teams in the NBA for years and, despite some years being hampered by injuries, ultimately had postseasons of good health where they could have won and didn't. The series in 14 vs OKC where Paul blew the game late in game 4 to allow for OKC to tie the series instead of taking a commanding 3-1 is a bad look. Blowing a 3-1 lead vs the Rockets the next year, including a blowing a 13-lead entering the 4th in game 5 when James Harden was benched while losing the 4th quarter 40-15, is even worse.

2) Melo had his first contending level team in 08-09, which he promptly led to the 2nd seed in the west and cruised into the WCF. They ran into the experienced Lakers who buzzsawed them, and had them outmatched from coaching to talent. Melo struggled in his first deep playoff run at the age of 24, like most players do. Then, he never had a legit team ever again.

Chris Paul has had teams talented enough to do things where they/he fell short. Safe to say, he couldn't get it done. Despite the Clippers being "cursed", they had extreme talent and a HOF coach so that's not really an excuse in real life.

Carmelo Anthony hasn't had teams good enough to contend, so hard to judge whether or not he ever could have during his prime. Part of that can be viewed as his own fault, since he wanted to go to the Knicks to win and wasn't patient enough to wait for FA to maximize the teams talent with him. The Knicks are also the Knicks lol. Still, the way Melo carried that Knicks team in 2012-13 was a level of individual dominance that Paul never achieved. The Knicks finished with the 3rd highest ORating that season, 1 spot ahead of Paul's Clippers. This was despite Melo's offensive help being JR Smith, Raymond Felton, old Kidd/Prigioni, Iman Shumpert and Tyson Chandler. Paul had Blake Griffin, Jamal Crawford, Eric Bledsoe, Caron Butler and DeAndre Jordan.

If you put that 2012-13 Melo on those 2008-09 Nuggets, I think it's possible that he could have won a championship. Or, at least came close.

For Chris Paul, I'm not sure how much more help you can give someone. I don't know what Paul needed to reach the WCF, let alone the Finals.

Well said.

LOb0
05-10-2017, 02:20 AM
CP3 is so much better and so much more of a winner than Melo is. Not even close. Melo can't even drag a team to the East playoffs consistently.

KB24PG16
05-10-2017, 03:16 AM
melo declined quicker than cp3, but he did lead his denver squad to the wcf. paul has never done that

hugepatsfan
05-10-2017, 09:50 AM
CP3 is a generational talent with really no holes in his game. Melo is a great player that had some serious limitations to his game that are now being exposed more as he ages and the strong points aren't what they once were. They aren't comparable at all.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
05-10-2017, 09:58 AM
Just read a Tommy Beer article suggesting a trade of Melo to Milwaukee. I almost threw up reading it. He suggested Melo for Middleton and Delly. I rather keep what we got.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:00 PM
Paul is the better player but has had more help. Paul should be viewed as the better player all time it's not even close but melo gets more of a pass for never getting to the promise land.

I agree, he gets more of a pass because hes an inferior player and has never lost to an inferior team as far as I can tell, maybe the series vs the Jazz when the Nuggets fell apart because Karl got cancer. One thing is for sure, the guy has had more help and has gone ghost far more often. I was there live when my 48 win Clips clowned him, dude had no semblance of a passing game and was VERY easy to defend back in those days.

Compared to Chris, who put the fear of god into Pop and its not even close. CP3 is the better player AND hes gotten more out of his teams as a result.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:01 PM
melo declined quicker than cp3, but he did lead his denver squad to the wcf. paul has never done that

Sprewell led his 8th seed to the Finals. Equally irrelevant

Chronz
05-10-2017, 02:02 PM
Well said.

Thank you, had anyone other than you +1 that post I would have felt the urge to refute his hilarious points. I'll take my time on this one for now

Hustla23
05-10-2017, 02:27 PM
Thank you, had anyone other than you +1 that post I would have felt the urge to refute his hilarious points. I'll take my time on this one for now
Either refute his points or don't. What's this side **** talking. :laugh2:

LOb0
05-10-2017, 02:47 PM
Sprewell led his 8th seed to the Finals. Equally irrelevant

I don't agree with that. Melo should get some credit, but Billups really turned that team around. But Melo's consistent losing completely overpowers that and CP3 is a consistent regular season winner.

There's no reason Melo shouldn't be able to get a East team to the playoffs.

As for Spree. funny lock out year, weird ref calls. Spree was great that but odd circumstances that year.

YAALREADYKNO
05-10-2017, 02:57 PM
Would be curious to see this list of Melo's teams that have underachieved.

Paul has had far, far better rosters that have underachieved far more. While he has had injured teammates some years, that doesn't fly for 2014 and 2015. Every series that his Clippers have won have needed to go game 7 and their overall record in the first round with Paul is 19-21.

The first series they won together wasn't even won by the starters. Nick Young, Kenyon Martin, Mo Williams, Reggie Evans and Eric Bledsoe won them that series, in the end. They started the 4th down 1 and gained an 8 point lead by the time the star trio was worked back in with 6:16 left. Overall, a starter did not score a point in that 4th until Paul hit 2 intentional foul FT's with 28 seconds left and the Clippers up 7 points. They won the 4th 27-16.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201205130MEM.html#q4

Melo has also had injured teammates in the playoffs - far more, by my count - while he has had an insanely high volume of playing the eventual conference or NBA champs. Melo drew the 05 Spurs, the 07 Spurs, the 08 Lakers (conf), the 09 Lakers in WCF and the 12 Heat. That's three NBA champs in the 1st round, a 4th in the WCF and a Finals appearing Lakers in another first round. Those Denver postseasons were at ages 20 and 22-24. You can add the WCF Wolves in his rookie season and the ECF Celtics in his first season in NY as other very tough first round draws.

Melo has played with an All-NBA teammate three times in his entire career. Billups made it in 08-09 (3rd team), Amare in 10-11 (2nd team) and Tyson in 12-13 (3rd team). Amare and Tyson were hurt for those postseasons. Billups was also hurt for 11. Amare, Shumpert, Lin and even Baron Davis were hurt for the 2012 series vs Miami. Kenyon Martin was hurt during the Nuggets 06 series vs the Clippers. He also missed the entire 06-07 season while JR Smith was hurt for their 07 series vs the Spurs. In 09-10, George Karl got cancer and missed most of the 2nd half of the season, including their playoff series vs Utah.

The one time Melo had a strong team, the 08-09 Nuggets, they blew through right into the WCF. They beat Paul's Hornets in 5 games, including a 58-point drubbing in game 4. They beat prime Dirk's Mavs in 5 games, despite Dirk's efforts averaging 34 PTS, 11 REB, 4 AST while shooting .534/.395/.919 to try and at least extend it.

To me, their careers should be looked at like so.

1) Chris Paul has had some of the most talented teams in the NBA for years and, despite some years being hampered by injuries, ultimately had postseasons of good health where they could have won and didn't. The series in 14 vs OKC where Paul blew the game late in game 4 to allow for OKC to tie the series instead of taking a commanding 3-1 is a bad look. Blowing a 3-1 lead vs the Rockets the next year, including a blowing a 13-lead entering the 4th in game 5 when James Harden was benched while losing the 4th quarter 40-15, is even worse.

2) Melo had his first contending level team in 08-09, which he promptly led to the 2nd seed in the west and cruised into the WCF. They ran into the experienced Lakers who buzzsawed them, and had them outmatched from coaching to talent. Melo struggled in his first deep playoff run at the age of 24, like most players do. Then, he never had a legit team ever again.

Chris Paul has had teams talented enough to do things where they/he fell short. Safe to say, he couldn't get it done. Despite the Clippers being "cursed", they had extreme talent and a HOF coach so that's not really an excuse in real life.

Carmelo Anthony hasn't had teams good enough to contend, so hard to judge whether or not he ever could have during his prime. Part of that can be viewed as his own fault, since he wanted to go to the Knicks to win and wasn't patient enough to wait for FA to maximize the teams talent with him. The Knicks are also the Knicks lol. Still, the way Melo carried that Knicks team in 2012-13 was a level of individual dominance that Paul never achieved. The Knicks finished with the 3rd highest ORating that season, 1 spot ahead of Paul's Clippers. This was despite Melo's offensive help being JR Smith, Raymond Felton, old Kidd/Prigioni, Iman Shumpert and Tyson Chandler. Paul had Blake Griffin, Jamal Crawford, Eric Bledsoe, Caron Butler and DeAndre Jordan.

If you put that 2012-13 Melo on those 2008-09 Nuggets, I think it's possible that he could have won a championship. Or, at least came close.

For Chris Paul, I'm not sure how much more help you can give someone. I don't know what Paul needed to reach the WCF, let alone the Finals.

This

FOXHOUND
05-10-2017, 03:14 PM
My bad before though, I didn't remember that it was game 5 vs OKC and not game 4.


Blake Griffin was 2nd Team All-NBA in 2011-12.

I already mentioned how Nick Young, Kenyon Martin and co led them to their game 7 victory vs Memphis.

In their 4 game sweep vs SA in the 2nd round, Blake Griffin showed up. Chris Paul did not.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-western-conference-semifinals-clippers-vs-spurs.html


Blake Griffin finished 3rd in MVP voting and was 2nd Team All-NBA in 2013-14.

Blake Griffin was their best player in their 7 game series win in 14 vs Golden State while Paul was outplayed by Curry.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-western-conference-first-round-warriors-vs-clippers.html

Blake Griffin averaged 23.8 pts, 8.8 rebs, 4.2 asts, 0.8 stl, 1.3 blk on .467/.333/.784 with 8.5 FTA vs OKC in 14.

In game 5, Blake Griffin had 24 points, 17 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal and 2 blocks on 10-20 and 4-5 FT.

In game 5, Chris Paul shot 6-16 with 5 turnovers while having 17 points, 14 assists and 4 steals. In the last 14 seconds of the game he had a turnover, fouled Westbrook on a 3 point attempt and had another turnover to lose them a game that would have given them a 3-2 lead.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-western-conference-semifinals-clippers-vs-thunder.html


Blake Griffin finished 8th in MVP voting and was 3rd Team All-NBA in 2014-15.

DeAndre Jordan was 1st Team All-NBA and 1 Team All-Defensive in 2014-15.

Blake Griffin averaged 24.1 pts, 13.1 reb, 7.4 ast, 1.4 stl, 1.4 blk on .467/.000/.759 with 7.7 FTA vs SA in 15.

DeAndre Jordan averaged 12.6 pts, 13.3 reb, 0.6 ast, 0.3 stl, 2.6 blk on .714/.384 with 10.4 FTA vs SA in 15.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-western-conference-first-round-spurs-vs-clippers.html

Blake Griffin averaged 26.9 pts, 12.3 reb, 4.9 ast, 0.6 stl, 0.6 blk on .555/.250/.673 with 7.4 FTA vs HOU in 15.

DeAndre Jordan averaged 13.6 pts, 13.4 reb, 1.7 ast, 2.0 stl, 2.1 blk on .718/.464 with 12.0 FTA vs HOU in 15.

In game 1, with no Paul, Blake Griffin put up 26 pts, 14 rebs and 13 asts on 9-19/0-1/8-10 shooting to lead the Clippers to a win.

In game 2, Blake put up 34 pts, 15 rebs and 4 asts on 13-23/0-1/8-11, but they lost by 5 with no Paul.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-western-conference-semifinals-clippers-vs-rockets.html

Chris Paul could make a deep playoff run... if he was on LeBron James' team.

Let the Chris Paul wheel of excuses perpetuate into eternity.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 03:16 PM
Either refute his points or don't. What's this side **** talking. :laugh2:

- 1
Nah, Ill keep doing what I've been doing thank you very much.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 03:19 PM
I don't agree with that. Melo should get some credit, but Billups really turned that team around. But Melo's consistent losing completely overpowers that and CP3 is a consistent regular season winner.

There's no reason Melo shouldn't be able to get a East team to the playoffs.

As for Spree. funny lock out year, weird ref calls. Spree was great that but odd circumstances that year.
Not sure what you're disagreeing with but Spree was at least one of the leaders of that team, suffice it to say, I also think Chauncey was more vital to the Nuggets than Melo was. Statistically Melo's never really stood out a step above and I've never liked his mediocre team influence(+/- numbers, coaches asking him to trust his teammates more), people think because hes been his teams leading scorer that it means hes been their best player throughout. It couldnt be further from the truth.

Chronz
05-10-2017, 03:23 PM
My bad before though, I didn't remember that it was game 5 vs OKC and not game 4.







Chris Paul could make a deep playoff run... if he was on LeBron James' team.

Let the Chris Paul wheel of excuses perpetuate into eternity.

Or if he had better teams than the ones he lost to.

Blake was also better than Melo during certain stretches, whats your point?

You denigrate CP3 for overachieving and winning a series against the Grizzlies because of his teammates and you blame him for losing when Harden sat down. Newsflash, thats just how much of a TEAM GAME this is, I dont care about eternity if it remains relevant.

Wake me up when Melo beats a team better than his OR when CP3 gets locked up and sees his team struggle to the degrees that Melo has throughout.

LOb0
05-10-2017, 05:53 PM
Not sure what you're disagreeing with but Spree was at least one of the leaders of that team, suffice it to say, I also think Chauncey was more vital to the Nuggets than Melo was. Statistically Melo's never really stood out a step above and I've never liked his mediocre team influence(+/- numbers, coaches asking him to trust his teammates more), people think because hes been his teams leading scorer that it means hes been their best player throughout. It couldnt be further from the truth.

Actually you're right, I was saying we should credit Melo somewhat for that WCF run but, Billups should get the majority of the credit. I take back disagreeing.

basch152
05-10-2017, 06:08 PM
melo declined quicker than cp3, but he did lead his denver squad to the wcf. paul has never done that

Billups was clearly the leader of that team. Look at the difference in success with AI vs billups.

Hell, I'll throw this out there - I'd take billups starting a team over melo without a second thought.

blahblahyoutoo
05-10-2017, 10:08 PM
No CP3 is the much better player. Neither won anything, their biggest regret will probably be not teaming up with Wade sensei and learning how to win.

yup, those 3 would have multiple 'ships.

FOXHOUND
05-11-2017, 10:06 AM
Or if he had better teams than the ones he lost to.

Blake was also better than Melo during certain stretches, whats your point?

You denigrate CP3 for overachieving and winning a series against the Grizzlies because of his teammates and you blame him for losing when Harden sat down. Newsflash, thats just how much of a TEAM GAME this is, I dont care about eternity if it remains relevant.

Wake me up when Melo beats a team better than his OR when CP3 gets locked up and sees his team struggle to the degrees that Melo has throughout.

Amazing of how much a "team game" it is when it comes to defending Paul, who has had far superior teammates and has had stacked teams for most of his career now, but for Melo that doesn't exist. Imagine if Paul had to play playoff games with Toney Douglas, Bill Walker, Landry Fields and Jared Jeffries as starters? Imagine if Jamal Crawford (JR Smith) was the Clippers 2nd best offensive player instead of Blake Griffin?

Wake me up when Paul carries a bunch of role players to 54-wins, instead of having the first team in NBA history with three All-NBA players somehow fail to win 60 games while blowing a 3-1 lead.

FOXHOUND
05-11-2017, 10:20 AM
Actually you're right, I was saying we should credit Melo somewhat for that WCF run but, Billups should get the majority of the credit. I take back disagreeing.

Oh my. You guys are citing something like +/- as Billups being more influential to that Nuggets team, when in reality,

Regular Season
Melo - +7.5
Billups - +3.4

Playoffs
Melo - +3.2
Billups - +0.5

What couldn't be further from the truth is that Billups was better than Melo. Was he the team leader? Yes, and as the PG that's also usually the case. Draymond Green is the leader of Golden State, is he better than Curry or Durant? Some stretch to bash Melo, you guys.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200905190LAL.html

How different is that WCF if Billups is just a bit better in game 1 to turn that 2 point loss into a victory? Oh wait, Melo was a -3 and Linas Kleiza was a +4, so he wasn't important that game lol.

Nuggets won game 2 and 4. They could have been up 3-1.

JordansBulls
05-14-2017, 12:50 AM
No but CP3 does need to shoot more.

da ThRONe
05-14-2017, 09:41 AM
Paul is the better player but not but that much. Carmelo and his legacy is becoming wildly underrated.

JasonJohnHorn
05-14-2017, 11:14 AM
Would be curious to see this list of Melo's teams that have underachieved.


It's easy to not underachieve when you set the bar so low. When you get put on a team, and nobody expects you to make it better, you can't underachieve unless you get worse. Melo lost in the first round for five straight seasons in Denver, and even after they brought in Kenyon Martin, and have Camby, and Nene, and a young JR Smith, he couldn't win, and THEN they brought in an MVP in Iverson and he STILL couldn't win. They only reason they got to the conference finals in his 6th year is because of Billups leadership. Melo is not a leader. Billups was.

So yeah... that Nuggets team underachieved, because when you bring in a talent like Iverson, and give him more talent than he'd ever had to work with before (and he'd been to the finals with less talent), and all you can pull out of him is 50 wins and a first-round exit. THAT is underachieving.

And without him? Well... 4 straight years of achieving what they had been achieving with him: decent records and first-round exits. So he wasn't making them better.

People we expecting improvements each year. They were expecting that Nuggets team to get better. And all they did was stagnate. That is underachieving. They bring in Iverson, and still no significant improvement.

It's only when they get a real leader in Billups that they finally improve.


More of the same in NY. I don't blame Melo for all their woes, but 'Antoni has already said that Melo put the kibosh on Lin's progress, and while I don't think he would have become a perennial all-star, when you have a teammate sabotaging another teammates success, that prevents a team from reaching their potential: underachieving.



In NY?

More of the same. Two first-round exits until some leaders like Kidd and Chandler who had championship experience, that they get out of the first round (ironically with Camby, Smith, and Martin who Melo couldn't win with in Denver). That team was old, but it was stacked with depth and experience. You essentially take Melo's Denver team and add Chandler, Kidd, Felton, Amare, Novak, Richardson and Wallace, and all he gets is one more playoff series win than he got with Billups. And they lost to PG, Lance and Hibbert.

I'd say that's underachieving.

And he hasn't made the playoffs since. This is in part due to NY's poor management, yes, but Melo has done nothing to improve the situation.

When you don't make teams better, you don't raise expectation, so its easy not to 'underachieve' when all people expect from you is a lottery performance or a first round exit.


For Chris Paul, I'm not sure how much more help you can give someone. I don't know what Paul needed to reach the WCF, let alone the Finals.

Melo's had a team that featured Kidd, Chandler (fresh of a title), Martin, Camby, Amare, Smith, QRichardson, Raymond Felton, Sheed, Kurt THomas, Shump, Novak, and Copeland and could even get PG (who Melo should be better than), Lance, and Hibbert to 6 games. How much talent (aging or not) does Melo need? An what about when he have Iverson and he could even win one playoff series?

The thing with CP3 is he MAKES TEAMS BETTER. Melo does not. When you make a team better, there are higher expectations. With that, comes the ability to underachieve. Chris Paul has 6-straight seasons at a .600 winning percentage of better in LAC. Melo has never achieved anything like that.


Despite playing with teams that had key players injured, Paul has won 4 playoff series in fewer seasons than Melo has won only three.

The only time they lost a series they should have won was against Houston, and just as NY's current struggles are on PJax and not Melo, that loss was on Doc, not the team, because he was putting out awful line-ups and giving his brick-laying son too many shots.

Paul's team regularly fulfill their potential and exceed it. They raise the standards, and with them expectations.

At the end of the day, CP3 makes his teams better. Melo does not.

When you make your team better, people notice when you lose. When people expect you to lose, they don't care when you don't win.

You can't say "Melo's never underachieved", but if your argument is because his teams never had a better record than the teams they lost to in the playoffs, that's because he never helped his team win more games. You are essentially faulting Paul for helping his team win, and giving Melo a pass because he hasn't.

In actuality, Melo has grossly underachieved for most of his NBA career.


If both were free agents this year, CP3 would be taking calls from nearly every team. Melo wouldn't only be getting calls from teams that were struggling and willing to take a gamble, or the Cavs because LBJ's is his buddy.

There is a reason for that.