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Scoots
05-05-2017, 06:07 PM
I saw this video about simple travel calls being missed by officials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl8RvgLywz8

and thought I'd bring up officiating in the NBA in general here.

I'm going to start by saying some things we should reasonably agree on:
1. The NBA officials are the BEST basketball officials in the world.
2. NBA officiating sucks.
3. We don't care HOW they fix it, but we want it fixed.

Agreed?

So, I've long been a proponent of adding a 4th official, with two baseline officials and to top officials who switch jobs as the game changes ends. This adds another set of eyes up top where so many blatant blown calls happen and reduces the time it takes for an official to get into position in todays faster game.

I heard a respected analyst the other day say he though we should go to 6 (!) officials so that they didn't have to run hardly at all and make it much more about their minds and eyes than their bodies. For the most part long time NBA players can't become officials because their bodies can't do it anymore ... if they hardly had to move we could get more ex players to officiate.

Another point, officials are working 60-80 road games a year. This year player rest and travel has been a major talking point, but players get 41 home games while officials get none. The NBA needs to double the number of officials and have them travel less of work fewer games.

Are there things we can do with automation to remove some things officials have to look at?

We need to clarify some fairly basic rules like block/charge, offensive vs defensive illegal contact, screens/picks, and traveling.

Thoughts?

dhopisthename
05-05-2017, 06:20 PM
https://streamable.com/y19ml and https://streamable.com/g7xaw needs fixed really soon. It's embarrassing that refs fall for that. I obviously have no idea how to fix it, but something needs to be done. don't forget about Hoiberg's spiel on Isaiah Thomas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpRZUazIurw . Most of these players would survive fine without doing all of this, but the NBA wants more scoring so i am not sure they ever do anything about it.

tredigs
05-05-2017, 06:22 PM
An extra official won't solve the nuances of calling a block/charge or many of the absurdly tough split second calls asked to be made in the NBA. It's a very fast paced semi-contact sport that only allows contact in certain scenarios. There's a reason that even with the advantage of slow motion replay, two fans of different teams will watch the same play and both be aghast at the call (or lack there of). This happens in game threads over and over and over. A fourth official would only serve as an extra subjective whistle to be added to the mix. I don't think officials being in bad positioning is a common enough issue to warrant any extra chefs in the kitchen.

I disagree that officiating sucks, by and large it is excellent. It's just a sport that simply can not be officiated perfectly. What I'm more concerned with is the league continuing to take an active approach in curbing the fouls players draw (legit fouls based on the rules) that have no place in basketball; pump fakes with the player jumping sideways to his airborn defender in order to draw 3 fouls chief among them. Ditto the new fad of the ball handling guard taking a screen and if the defender goes over the screen rather than under it, he'll just stop abruptly (half the time with the offensive player slyly pulling the defenders jersey into him) and fake a shot in order to get 3 FT's. A new Harden trick, but he's far from alone.

tredigs
05-05-2017, 06:25 PM
https://streamable.com/y19ml and https://streamable.com/g7xaw needs fixed really soon. It's embarrassing that refs fall for that. I obviously have no idea how to fix it, but something needs to be done. don't forget about Hoiberg's spiel on Isaiah Thomas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpRZUazIurw . Most of these players would survive fine without doing all of this, but the NBA wants more scoring so i am not sure they ever do anything about it.
Yeah you're bringing up the same call I mentioned (and even vid of the same player), and I disagree that the NBA wants these calls. They want scoring, but not via the line. That's not entertaining, and they are well aware of it. This is a new phenomena from the players though, so the NBA will make a new rule against it eventually if it becomes a big enough issue (IE hack-a-shaq's new rules).

LOb0
05-05-2017, 06:30 PM
I don't complain as much because its really been toned down since years ago. 2006 was the peak of bulls**t refereeing. They actually let them play more nowadays.

The real thing that needs to be added is, say there's a questionable call in real time, but its obvious on the replay. there's a ref in the replay center, just quickly hit the refs ear piece and tell them the correct call. These 5-10 minute replays for a call you can see off one replay pisses me off. They shouldn't even need to go to video for 50% of these.

warfelg
05-05-2017, 07:46 PM
So, I've long been a proponent of adding a 4th official, with two baseline officials and to top officials who switch jobs as the game changes ends. This adds another set of eyes up top where so many blatant blown calls happen and reduces the time it takes for an official to get into position in todays faster game.

I'm down for this. I think the ref at the scoring table needs to have a more active role in the game. Watching over the backboard feeds for charge/block, lane violations, ect.


I heard a respected analyst the other day say he though we should go to 6 (!) officials so that they didn't have to run hardly at all and make it much more about their minds and eyes than their bodies. For the most part long time NBA players can't become officials because their bodies can't do it anymore ... if they hardly had to move we could get more ex players to officiate.

I don't like ex-players being refs and 6 is overkill.


Another point, officials are working 60-80 road games a year. This year player rest and travel has been a major talking point, but players get 41 home games while officials get none. The NBA needs to double the number of officials and have them travel less of work fewer games.

Agreed. We should have Eastern Conference and Western Conference refs. MLB does it with National League and American League. College sports do it with conferences.


Are there things we can do with automation to remove some things officials have to look at?

SportVu tracking is amazing. I would bet within 5 years it will be able to spot traveling. Ever seen tennis tracking for in/out? I bet we could do something for ball going OB.


We need to clarify some fairly basic rules like block/charge, offensive vs defensive illegal contact, screens/picks, and traveling.

Thoughts?

Yes yes and yes. The one that get's me is picks. A game against GSW (for Philly) I saw Green set a screen that he left fairly quick and stuck his elbow out on, not dirty, but definitely illegal. No call. Holmes does it on our next trip, called for moving screen.

I think the biggest thing that needs to go is the "superstar call". And stop calling even the smallest of contact. Bring back some of the need to fight for your shot inside.

da ThRONe
05-05-2017, 08:28 PM
I agree there should be an additional ref it would help with vantage points. But most of the problems lay with the rules themselves. Right they so greatly favor the offense and so guys are literally out there looking to be bailed out by refs. Also the block charge situation is so hard to determine because the defensive player has to go out seeking a charge instead of just playing defense.

Scoots
05-05-2017, 09:21 PM
An extra official won't solve the nuances of calling a block/charge or many of the absurdly tough split second calls asked to be made in the NBA. It's a very fast paced semi-contact sport that only allows contact in certain scenarios. There's a reason that even with the advantage of slow motion replay, two fans of different teams will watch the same play and both be aghast at the call (or lack there of). This happens in game threads over and over and over. A fourth official would only serve as an extra subjective whistle to be added to the mix. I don't think officials being in bad positioning is a common enough issue to warrant any extra chefs in the kitchen.

I disagree that officiating sucks, by and large it is excellent. It's just a sport that simply can not be officiated perfectly. What I'm more concerned with is the league continuing to take an active approach in curbing the fouls players draw (legit fouls based on the rules) that have no place in basketball; pump fakes with the player jumping sideways to his airborn defender in order to draw 3 fouls chief among them. Ditto the new fad of the ball handling guard taking a screen and if the defender goes over the screen rather than under it, he'll just stop abruptly (half the time with the offensive player slyly pulling the defenders jersey into him) and fake a shot in order to get 3 FT's. A new Harden trick, but he's far from alone.

You are right block/charge needs a rule clarification for the bang bang ones, but some of them are not close and hard to see, they are just not seen because people are looking at other things.

I started off by saying we can all agree that the refs are the best there are ... so they are excellent, but the result is not. The false contact rules can be improved by more eyes. Right now an official is looking at hands and arms to look for contact so close that there is nobody looking at the feet to see the travel, and if there were more officials there might be an official with an angle to see that there was in fact no contact at all and therefore couldn't be a foul, or that the contact was clearly initiated by the offensive player so it was not a foul on the defender, or an extra ref could see the arm around the player holding them to slow the offensive player from moving to catch the pass. All these things are called well within the restrictions placed on the refs.

Scoots
05-05-2017, 09:24 PM
https://streamable.com/y19ml and https://streamable.com/g7xaw needs fixed really soon. It's embarrassing that refs fall for that. I obviously have no idea how to fix it, but something needs to be done. don't forget about Hoiberg's spiel on Isaiah Thomas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpRZUazIurw . Most of these players would survive fine without doing all of this, but the NBA wants more scoring so i am not sure they ever do anything about it.

It needs to be a "point of emphasis" next year to not allow it any more.

Scoots
05-05-2017, 09:27 PM
I don't complain as much because its really been toned down since years ago. 2006 was the peak of bulls**t refereeing. They actually let them play more nowadays.

The real thing that needs to be added is, say there's a questionable call in real time, but its obvious on the replay. there's a ref in the replay center, just quickly hit the refs ear piece and tell them the correct call. These 5-10 minute replays for a call you can see off one replay pisses me off. They shouldn't even need to go to video for 50% of these.

I've never understood why the head ref for a game can't just ask NY and get an answer as quick as they can look at it.

As long as they are at it ... when they are looking at replay to see if a shot on a foul was a 2 or a 3, they could also look to see if it was actually a shot or just a fling, and also if it was actually a foul at all. Right now once the whistle is blown the refs are going to punish someone.

Scoots
05-05-2017, 09:42 PM
1. I'm down for this. I think the ref at the scoring table needs to have a more active role in the game. Watching over the backboard feeds for charge/block, lane violations, ect.

2. I don't like ex-players being refs and 6 is overkill.

3. Agreed. We should have Eastern Conference and Western Conference refs. MLB does it with National League and American League. College sports do it with conferences.

4. SportVu tracking is amazing. I would bet within 5 years it will be able to spot traveling. Ever seen tennis tracking for in/out? I bet we could do something for ball going OB.

5. Yes yes and yes. The one that get's me is picks. A game against GSW (for Philly) I saw Green set a screen that he left fairly quick and stuck his elbow out on, not dirty, but definitely illegal. No call. Holmes does it on our next trip, called for moving screen.

6. I think the biggest thing that needs to go is the "superstar call". And stop calling even the smallest of contact. Bring back some of the need to fight for your shot inside.

1. I'd be good with that. Call everything anybody can see and the players will adjust.
2. Ex players often have a better perspective on the NBA game and they have more respect from the players.
4. The out of bounds one seems easy, and the 3 point line on a shot too. Traveling would be interesting.
5. Not only do refs have to catch the illegal play they need to call them consistently. In the BOS/WAS game 3 post game a BOS player (Thomas or Smart I think) said that the team that comes out more physical to start gets the advantage from the refs for the whole game. They have to call the game the same both ways.
6. The "superstar call" came from the refs learning after the game on film review that the foul they called on the superstar wasn't actually a foul and they file it away that that player can actually do that move and not foul, or the opposite is true where the superstar was fouled but because they are so good they were not hindered by the foul that wasn't called. The result is that the refs start guessing based on the player ... all players ... and their knowledge of them from past experience. Rookies have no history so they call every call. Players who have a history of playing great defense get the benefit of that history even when they are fouling. It's not the the league wants certain players to succeed or fail. The result of 14 years of total domination means LeBron gets more 50-50 calls his way because film review says he's earned the benefit of the doubt. Ideally the officials are good enough to get every call right so who the player is no longer matters.

Scoots
05-05-2017, 09:44 PM
I agree there should be an additional ref it would help with vantage points. But most of the problems lay with the rules themselves. Right they so greatly favor the offense and so guys are literally out there looking to be bailed out by refs. Also the block charge situation is so hard to determine because the defensive player has to go out seeking a charge instead of just playing defense.

I think the majority of the time the block charge call should just be a no call, but the flopping has so emphasized the contact that the refs feel they have to call someone for something. There are no easy solutions though.

da ThRONe
05-06-2017, 07:08 AM
I think the majority of the time the block charge call should just be a no call, but the flopping has so emphasized the contact that the refs feel they have to call someone for something. There are no easy solutions though.

Yeah It can't be easy officiating the sport. But like you I think when in doubt I rather see a no call.

warfelg
05-06-2017, 08:06 AM
2. Ex players often have a better perspective on the NBA game and they have more respect from the players.

They also could be suspect to gambling. And have very strong biases based on players the like, don't like, cities they like, played in, treated them well, poorly.



5. Not only do refs have to catch the illegal play they need to call them consistently. In the BOS/WAS game 3 post game a BOS player (Thomas or Smart I think) said that the team that comes out more physical to start gets the advantage from the refs for the whole game. They have to call the game the same both ways.

Yea. See, I'm not a fan of the refs setting the tone, which I feel is what happens in some games. I like what the BOS player said...in essence. Let the players set the tone. If there will be bumping and physicality, let both teams do it. If the teams will be soft....let them.


6. The "superstar call" came from the refs learning after the game on film review that the foul they called on the superstar wasn't actually a foul and they file it away that that player can actually do that move and not foul, or the opposite is true where the superstar was fouled but because they are so good they were not hindered by the foul that wasn't called. The result is that the refs start guessing based on the player ... all players ... and their knowledge of them from past experience. Rookies have no history so they call every call. Players who have a history of playing great defense get the benefit of that history even when they are fouling. It's not the the league wants certain players to succeed or fail. The result of 14 years of total domination means LeBron gets more 50-50 calls his way because film review says he's earned the benefit of the doubt. Ideally the officials are good enough to get every call right so who the player is no longer matters.

I mean....I know you will never get rid of that.

The one I got to a bunch was the end of the first Philly-Cleveland game this year. JR literally held Gerald Hendersons Arm as he went for the shot, and there was no call. But you bet 100% that if it was Henderson or RoCo doing that to Lebron, Kyrie, or Love trying to win (or tie) the game for Cleveland he would have been on the line, likely with the whistle blowing before the actual contact.

They are getting better and better at it, I'll credit that.