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The Scoop HQ
05-01-2017, 01:26 AM
A recent article on Bleacher report lists these players as the top ten under the age of 25 in the NBA. Which of these players (or a player off this list) would you select to build your franchise around and why?
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Kyrie Irving
Karl-Anthony Towns
Joel Embiid
Kristaps Porzingis
Nikola Jokic
Bradley Beal
Andre Drummond
Andrew Wiggins

tredigs
05-01-2017, 01:32 AM
If we're including 6 year vets like Kyrie then give me 6 year vet Kawhi. Wiggins/Beal/Drummond all laughable. Embiid, prove yourself and stay on the court before you deserve consideration in anything (despite having the most talent). Kristaps is a wild card though he will be awesome, ditto Jokic. It's KAT or Giannis. I'll take Giannis.

valade16
05-01-2017, 01:37 AM
A recent article on Bleacher report lists these players as the top ten under the age of 25 in the NBA. Which of these players (or a player off this list) would you select to build your franchise around and why?
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Kyrie Irving
Karl-Anthony Towns
Joel Embiid
Kristaps Porzingis
Nikola Jokic
Bradley Beal
Andre Drummond
Andrew Wiggins

1. Giannis
2. Anthony Davis
3. KAT
4. Jokic
5. Porzingis
6. Embiid

Kyrie, Beal, Drummond, Wiggins = trade them and start the rebuild over.

LOb0
05-01-2017, 01:38 AM
I'd have to take Giannis. AD is amazing but he's hurt to often.

The Scoop HQ
05-01-2017, 01:45 AM
Anthony Davis is the best player on this list IMO. With that said, availability is valuable, and Davis is often off the floor due to injuries. Giannis is the next man on the talent list, and he is getting better every year. The scary thing about Giannis is that we have not even seen him unleash his full potential. So if I were starting a franchise today, I would have to select the 'Greek Freak' as my centerpiece.

FOXHOUND
05-01-2017, 02:06 AM
Giannis for me. I echo the health concerns for Davis. I love Giannis' two way dedication and his intensity and effort. Even when Davis is healthy you don't always see that from him. KAT is an incredible scorer and rebounder at his age but his defense is horrendous. As a Knicks fan I love KP of course, but honestly the jury is still out on whether or not he's a true franchise player. The talent and mentality is there but he hasn't proven he can play at that level for any notable length of consistency yet for that claim.

Give me Giannis, he's on his way to great things.

Quinnsanity
05-01-2017, 02:50 AM
1. Giannis
2. Anthony Davis
3. KAT
4. Jokic
5. Porzingis
6. Embiid

Kyrie, Beal, Drummond, Wiggins = trade them and start the rebuild over.

Swap Davis and KAT, but otherwise, yea, this, exactly. You just get me.

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 10:30 AM
Giannis
KAT

everyone else....

Get Wiggins and Beal off that list, god. I am getting sick of fighting people in my own teams board over Wiggins, the dude is so one dimensional, and hasn't improved even slightly since entering the league, and is routinely on my **** list during games.

ManningToTyree
05-01-2017, 10:35 AM
Greek freak

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 11:29 AM
If we are basing this off fully healthy then it would be Anthony Davis then Embiid then KAT then GreekFreak

if we are going on right now today then it goes Anthony Davis then KAT then GreekFreak then Irving then Jokic then Porz the rest are a coin flip, I would usually take the big man over the guard to build a team from scratch, and the league pretty much has been that way ever since the 50's-60's

dhopisthename
05-01-2017, 11:55 AM
I found the artcile that this post was based off http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2688168-2016-17-nba-under-25-player-power-rankings and the list is pretty terrible.

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 12:24 PM
I found the artcile that this post was based off http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2688168-2016-17-nba-under-25-player-power-rankings and the list is pretty terrible.

Irving that high is hilarious

Heediot
05-01-2017, 12:25 PM
KAT.

Giannis may prove me wrong if he develops a jumper. I think he'll be like Westbrook, a guy with a shaky jumper his whole career.

KAT is the most well rounded, just needs more refinement and he'll be a two way beast. He's going to be a better shooter vs. Giannis with height to spare.

mrblisterdundee
05-01-2017, 12:42 PM
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo healthy, best at getting to the cup, can't shoot, DPOY potential
2. Karl-Anthony Towns healthy, scores from anywhere, defensive anchor potential
3. Anthony Davis health issues, otherwise the best player on this list
4. Joel Embiid even more health issues, but even more potential
5. Nikola Jokic healthy, non-athlete, crafty
6. Kristaps Porzingis healthy, can score from anyhwere, decent defensive potential
7. Kyrie Irving healthy, can score from anywhere, no defense
8. Andrew Wiggins healthy, can't shoot, decent defensive potential
9. Andre Drummond healthy, offensively limited, decent defensive potential, not an alpha
10. Bradley Beal hasn't proven long-term health, can score from anywhere, solid No. 2 option if healthy

da ThRONe
05-01-2017, 07:48 PM
You have to go KAT here. If we are talking over all potential Emibiid wins this by a decent margin. He showed potential to be elite almost every where. I think Davis and Antetokounmpo has been the most productive. My issue with Davis outside of the obvious health concerns is he just doesn't win. Of course a lot of that has been our team health as well, but 5 years and only one playoff appearance is concerning. Kyrie just doesn't play defense and doesn't necessarily make his teammates better IMO. I think Jokic is an interesting choice. Not sure he's ready to be build around just yet.

Heediot
05-01-2017, 07:58 PM
You have to go KAT here. If we are talking over all potential Emibiid wins this by a decent margin. He showed potential to be elite almost every where. I think Davis and Antetokounmpo has been the most productive. My issue with Davis outside of the obvious health concerns is he just doesn't win. Of course a lot of that has been our team health as well, but 5 years and only one playoff appearance is concerning. Kyrie just doesn't play defense and doesn't necessarily make his teammates better IMO. I think Jokic is an interesting choice. Not sure he's ready to be build around just yet.

True about Davis. Marc Gasol has the same amount of help and he has his team in the playoffs consistently.

Tg11
05-02-2017, 09:21 AM
For me building around Giannis and it is not even close...he would be my franchise player for who I would want to build a franchise around as far as young players go

nycericanguy
05-02-2017, 09:46 AM
why in the world would anyone build around Embiid? He hasn't even proven he can play a full GAME, let alone a full season.

Giannis & KAT for me...

Kyben36
05-02-2017, 10:09 AM
A recent article on Bleacher report lists these players as the top ten under the age of 25 in the NBA. Which of these players (or a player off this list) would you select to build your franchise around and why?
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Kyrie Irving
Karl-Anthony Towns
Joel Embiid
Kristaps Porzingis
Nikola Jokic
Bradley Beal
Andre Drummond
Andrew Wiggins

AD and its not close to me.

I love Gianis as well, but his lack of shooting ability to me is killer.
Joel Embid is also very good, but injuries scare me off.
KAT to me regressed last year, so questions concerning him.
Irving is a great scorer, but i dont think he is a good winner. he needs to be an off ball player to dominate, not the dominate guy.

Hawkeye15
05-02-2017, 10:29 AM
AD and its not close to me.

I love Gianis as well, but his lack of shooting ability to me is killer.
Joel Embid is also very good, but injuries scare me off.
KAT to me regressed last year, so questions concerning him.
Irving is a great scorer, but i dont think he is a good winner. he needs to be an off ball player to dominate, not the dominate guy.

huh?

tp13baby
05-02-2017, 10:55 AM
huh?

Yeah i don't know who he watched.

AD is first. This cause you don't need a specific need around him. Just players that can play.
Giannis is going to be the best assuming shooting improves. That being said he needs shooters.
KAT this was hard to put him here. Defensively he could be better.

Heediot
05-02-2017, 11:42 AM
Yeah i don't know who he watched.

AD is first. This cause you don't need a specific need around him. Just players that can play.
Giannis is going to be the best assuming shooting improves. That being said he needs shooters.
KAT this was hard to put him here. Defensively he could be better.

I keep hearing excuses for AD. At the end of the day his style of play doesn't elevate his team enough for me, neither does KAT right now. They both can still grow and learn the subtleties of how to impact the game outside of individual greatness. If your a big man in a ball handler shooter league, you need to elevate your team in other ways besides scoring.

Heediot
05-02-2017, 12:00 PM
In AD's defense he is already a top 10 player, at least with his individual play, counting stats and advanced stats.

Can any of these guys become a top 5 guy in the future, if not it's AD. I personally think KAT and Giannis will become top 5 guys/MVP candidates. I like KAT's game deeper in the playoffs vs. Giannis. I think KAT's ability to create better looks against stingier defenses will separate the two. I think KAT's defense will improve to a higher degree vs. Giannis' shooting. Which is why Im leaning towards KAT My .02

mrblisterdundee
05-02-2017, 12:55 PM
In AD's defense he is already a top 10 player, at least with his individual play, counting stats and advanced stats.

Can any of these guys become a top 5 guy in the future, if not it's AD. I personally think KAT and Giannis will become top 5 guys/MVP candidates. I like KAT's game deeper in the playoffs vs. Giannis. I think KAT's ability to create better looks against stingier defenses will separate the two. I think KAT's defense will improve to a higher degree vs. Giannis' shooting. Which is why Im leaning towards KAT My .02

Towns is more balanced than Giannis and healthier than Davis, but I think Giannis has the better potential as an alpha. He's a horrible shooter and needs to improve, but it's harder to re-create a 6'11" dude who can run an offense and defend every position, and easier to surround him with shooters. Neither Towns nor Davis have that level of versatility. They might even be better off as dominant second options next to an all-NBA guard (please make Chris Paul go home to New Orleans)
LeBron never scorched the net, and many are talking about his chances of becoming the GOAT. I'm not assuming Giannis will reach that level, but it's not like he needs to take a lot of threes to be successful.

Heediot
05-02-2017, 01:02 PM
Towns is more balanced than Giannis and healthier than Davis, but I think Giannis has the better potential as an alpha. He's a horrible shooter and needs to improve, but it's harder to re-create a 6'11" dude who can run an offense and defend every position, and easier to surround him with shooters. Neither Towns nor Davis have that level of versatility. They might even be better off as dominant second options next to an all-NBA guard (please make Chris Paul go home to New Orleans)
LeBron never scorched the net, and many are talking about his chances of becoming the GOAT. I'm not assuming Giannis will reach that level, but it's not like he needs to take a lot of threes to be successful.

That's true, the rules are to Giannis advantage and the LeBron example is hard to argue against. OTOH, I've seen the guy struggle in FIBA competition because of his lack of shooting. Although it's harder to consistently drive to the basket in FIBA ball as the lane is more clogged with true zones, and hand checking slows you down a bit even before you get to the bucket. I guess either pick between Giannis and KAT has it's merit and I am willing to concede Giannis for now since he is showing more currently, but my gut tells me KAT is going to be the guy. I totally forgot Giannis was 6'11 though, damn!

Kyben36
05-02-2017, 01:18 PM
yeah i don't know who he watched.

Ad is first. This cause you don't need a specific need around him. Just players that can play.
Giannis is going to be the best assuming shooting improves. That being said he needs shooters.
Kat this was hard to put him here. Defensively he could be better.

you guys are right, early in the year he was really strugling, must have put on a hell of a 2nd half. WHILE I WASNT PAYING ATTENTION.

Hawkeye15
05-02-2017, 02:05 PM
you guys are right, early in the year he was really strugling, must have put on a hell of a 2nd half. WHILE I WASNT PAYING ATTENTION.

the first 20 games or so, for some reason, he was hoisting 3's, and just not the same player he was last year. He stopped doing that, and took off. Towns was a beast offensively this year. Outside Boogie, not sure there is a better offensive big man in the game than Towns at this point. If he simply becomes a plus defender, he will be a top 5 player.

Kyben36
08-08-2017, 05:38 AM
right now. gianis would be first in my list. davis 2nd towns 3rd. embid would be a 3b if I knew he could stay healthy

Scoots
08-08-2017, 12:38 PM
Irving that high is hilarious

Irving isn't even "under 25" so he doesn't belong on the list at all.

Gotta be Giannis and then KAT ... but after this year those two may swap places if KAT does what he said he's going to do and really start playing solid D.

ewing
08-08-2017, 02:55 PM
KP is the only answer


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5ass
08-08-2017, 03:20 PM
I think Ill take KAT over Giannis. A versatile big man like Towns is easier to build around and IMO harder for opposing teams to stop on offense.

FlashBolt
08-08-2017, 09:48 PM
I think Ill take KAT over Giannis. A versatile big man like Towns is easier to build around and IMO harder for opposing teams to stop on offense.

Thing with KAT is I think he has peaked or reached near max potential. His game just doesn't require much improvement at this point. I don't see how he can get MUCH better. He can tweak and add a few moves to his arsenal but does he get much better if at all? I said the same thing about Blake a few years ago.. people thought he was going to just get better and better but nope. Giannis on the other hand is reaching a level where it's obvious he can continue getting better. His jumpshot still needs work, he has to play better and smarter defense, and his leadership will be questioned but Goddamn, this guy has all the tools to do everything on the court. KAT just can't because of his position. We're not going to see the best player be a "Big Man" for awhile since there is so much emphasis on the three point shooting. Anthony Davis might be cracking up there but dude can't be trusted to stay healthy right now.

Jeffy25
08-08-2017, 11:59 PM
Either
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Or
KAT

5ass
08-09-2017, 04:08 PM
Thing with KAT is I think he has peaked or reached near max potential. His game just doesn't require much improvement at this point. I don't see how he can get MUCH better. He can tweak and add a few moves to his arsenal but does he get much better if at all? I said the same thing about Blake a few years ago.. people thought he was going to just get better and better but nope. Giannis on the other hand is reaching a level where it's obvious he can continue getting better. His jumpshot still needs work, he has to play better and smarter defense, and his leadership will be questioned but Goddamn, this guy has all the tools to do everything on the court. KAT just can't because of his position. We're not going to see the best player be a "Big Man" for awhile since there is so much emphasis on the three point shooting. Anthony Davis might be cracking up there but dude can't be trusted to stay healthy right now.

i disagree. emphasis on three point shooting has led to big men developing a 3pt shot. KAT shot 36% while taking 3 3s per game. That can definitely improve, atleast in terms of volume. He should improve on defense too. He still has a high ceiling in that aspectof the game. Remember Marc Gasol didnt become a great defender until maybe late 20s? As a bigman, i think KAT can have a much bigger impact on spacing and defense. There arent many great centers in this league, and youre not winning a championship without another great player anyway. Both guys need a 20+PPG scorer and a great supporting cast to win a championship. I think it would be easier to find good wings than good big men. You pick Giannis, then you likely end up with a Gortat/Noel/ect. level player at C (if not worse). So now you have atleast two players in your starting line up who cannot shoot the three. You pick KAT and you still have a lot of good wings to try to sign/trade for, and it's possible to have a starting 5 that can all shoot the three.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2017, 04:18 PM
KAT really doesn't need to improve much offensively (not that I don't think he will) to become an elite player, if he simply becomes a plus defender. Remember, he was a guard until 11th grade, grew, turned into a big man, and dominated off sheer talent. His rookie year, I swear to god he didn't even know how to do something as simple as block out. Why would he have ever learned defense if he just lived off talent? His defense was better the 2nd half of last year, but still sucked by all measures. I would expect this year to see an improvement in defense, but even then, he might be 2-3 seasons away from fully developing physically (where he isn't able to be pushed), and from developing the instincts/reactions to being a defender, instead of just trying to block everything.

I am about as negative a Wolves fan as you get, that is what happens when you suck for eternity. But we got the KAT pick right, and I think he will be the best big man in the game this year, and an MVP candidate for his peak/prime. I would expect him to start racking up all NBA teams starting this season.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2017, 04:23 PM
If KAT ever does become an excellent defender, he will for sure have a claim as the best player in the league. But, that is a mile away right now haha

Heediot
08-09-2017, 04:36 PM
If KAT ever does become an excellent defender, he will for sure have a claim as the best player in the league. But, that is a mile away right now haha

IT took DJ like 4-5 years to become a good fender. These new generation of bigs tend to have less court awareness and fundamentals on D.

I agree if all the youth reach their full potential. I'd take KAT over Giannis and AD.

Hawkeye15
08-09-2017, 05:11 PM
IT took DJ like 4-5 years to become a good fender. These new generation of bigs tend to have less court awareness and fundamentals on D.

I agree if all the youth reach their full potential. I'd take KAT over Giannis and AD.

people ALWAYS forget, it takes bigs longer to develop typically, and in the era of one and done, 19 year olds coming in needs to be better understood. Guards/wings tend to develop faster, bigs later.

It's tough to pass on Giannis, and even AD, despite his injury history. But I would take KAT over any under 25 player going forward.

TrueFan420
08-09-2017, 05:44 PM
IT took DJ like 4-5 years to become a good fender. These new generation of bigs tend to have less court awareness and fundamentals on D.

I agree if all the youth reach their full potential. I'd take KAT over Giannis and AD.

When was DJ ever a good defender?

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 07:43 PM
Speaking of bleacher report, they are ****ing terrible with NBA rankings and all that ****! Advanced stats have ****ed everything up, I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. There's a place for them but for the most part it's ******** to try and give guys who never played the game a better understanding and it's not helping at all.

I can post multiple articles from bleacher report recently that are pure garbage made up of advanced stats.

For instance, they just ranked the top teams ever and had the Dwight Magic ranked 5th in front of the 2000-01 Lakers at 7th and the ****ing 08-09 Cavs at 3rd! Get the **** out of here with that dumb ****!

WaDe03
08-09-2017, 07:49 PM
Here it is

895394168821788672

Best teams since the 2000s.

15-16 Spurs ranked 2nd......

GREATNESS ONE
08-09-2017, 11:05 PM
Lonzo Ball!!!

GREATNESS ONE
08-09-2017, 11:06 PM
Here it is

895394168821788672

Best teams since the 2000s.

15-16 Spurs ranked 2nd......

lol no one, and I mean no one in history can stop Prime Shaq....

basch152
08-09-2017, 11:23 PM
Someone just said kat regressed this year after averaging 25 ppg as a 2nd year player.

Like what in the actual ****.

GoferKing_
08-10-2017, 04:05 AM
Easy. KAT or Giannis.

mngopher35
08-10-2017, 04:25 PM
KAT post all star break:

28.4 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 2.2 apg on 43.4% from 3 and FG% of 59.7 overall.

I choose that guy.

FlashBolt
08-10-2017, 11:50 PM
lol no one, and I mean no one in history can stop Prime Shaq....

That's fine. No one stops KD or Curry, either. And I feel even though prime Shaq was unstoppable, there were a few times where they actually were.. Kings got robbed and Pistons did beat them. Let's not also act like the league was insanely stacked back then. It was a pretty weak moment of basketball teams.

More-Than-Most
08-11-2017, 03:19 AM
I am Shaqs biggest fan.... But he would be stopped in todays NBA if he were in his prime because teams like the warriors/cavs would eat him alive.

GREATNESS ONE
08-11-2017, 09:28 AM
That's fine. No one stops KD or Curry, either. And I feel even though prime Shaq was unstoppable, there were a few times where they actually were.. Kings got robbed and Pistons did beat them. Let's not also act like the league was insanely stacked back then. It was a pretty weak moment of basketball teams.

Pretty Weak?? those WC playoffs were stacked.... how old were you back then? And I'm talking Prime Shaq like, 01Shaq, not 04 Shaq, were he was just a bit fatter and slower lol

They changed rules because of that Shaq.

GREATNESS ONE
08-11-2017, 09:29 AM
I am Shaqs biggest fan.... But he would be stopped in todays NBA if he were in his prime because teams like the warriors/cavs would eat him alive.

You have got to be kidding me. Eat him alive?

With what? Draymond Green? :laugh2: Kevin Love? Give me a break.

FlashBolt
08-11-2017, 10:16 AM
Pretty Weak?? those WC playoffs were stacked.... how old were you back then? And I'm talking Prime Shaq like, 01Shaq, not 04 Shaq, were he was just a bit fatter and slower lol

They changed rules because of that Shaq.

I said the league. And the West weren't all that stacked. Old Karl Malone and Stockton were able to get them to the fourth seed...

Hawkeye15
08-11-2017, 11:08 AM
Pretty Weak?? those WC playoffs were stacked.... how old were you back then? And I'm talking Prime Shaq like, 01Shaq, not 04 Shaq, were he was just a bit fatter and slower lol

They changed rules because of that Shaq.

I agree with your Shaq take for the most part (though I would love to see teams pulling his *** out of the paint on offense), but the league wasn't stronger back then. It was just different. Big men reigned still, and the rule changes weren't in place to shift to more of a perimeter league like today.

WaDe03
08-11-2017, 11:09 AM
Shaq could score in today's game literally every time against these centers. He would bully the **** out of all of them.

ewing
08-11-2017, 11:11 AM
he would score at will, but he wouldn't be able to defend a lot of teams today. But arguing over whether a top 8 player ever would dominate, is stupid. Guys in the top 10 would be amazing any era, anytime, anywhere.

even against guys that don't eat gluten?

Hawkeye15
08-11-2017, 11:11 AM
Shaq could score in today's game literally every time against these centers. He would bully the **** out of all of them.

he would score at will, but he wouldn't be able to defend a lot of teams today. But arguing over whether a top 8 player ever would dominate, is stupid. Guys in the top 10 would be amazing any era, anytime, anywhere.

WaDe03
08-11-2017, 11:13 AM
he would score at will, but he wouldn't be able to defend a lot of teams today. But arguing over whether a top 8 player ever would dominate, is stupid. Guys in the top 10 would be amazing any era, anytime, anywhere.

I agree, it's annoying as hell when people try to claim the greats wouldn't be great in any era.

FlashBolt
08-11-2017, 12:01 PM
The notion Shaq could grab the ball and just drop 50 is absurd. This isn't the 1950's. Shaq's fatass would be pissed having to get past screens and rotate defensively. They'll let Shaq get his two points but Warriors offensively absolutely demoralize the Lakers with their three point shooting. Shaq would get in so much foul trouble trying to switch up on Curry attacking the paint. Like I said, that Lakers team was great. But they were beatable. And this Warriors team is certainly much better offensively than just about any team we have ever seen.

Hawkeye15
08-11-2017, 12:14 PM
even against guys that don't eat gluten?

especially against guys who are gluten free

Hawkeye15
08-11-2017, 12:15 PM
The notion Shaq could grab the ball and just drop 50 is absurd. This isn't the 1950's. Shaq's fatass would be pissed having to get past screens and rotate defensively. They'll let Shaq get his two points but Warriors offensively absolutely demoralize the Lakers with their three point shooting. Shaq would get in so much foul trouble trying to switch up on Curry attacking the paint. Like I said, that Lakers team was great. But they were beatable. And this Warriors team is certainly much better offensively than just about any team we have ever seen.

yeah but vice versa, no team would have an answer for him offensively. Never has been an answer for him, probably never will be.

jaydubb
08-11-2017, 12:25 PM
The guy that said KAT has regressed is probably high so I'll let that slide..

Imo, AD has the potential to be #1 on this list but due to injuries I think he's #3.. The top guy is hard for me to choose between.. I love versatility and defense in players and both KAT and giannis have it. I think I'll give the edge to giannis just because I think he has a scary high potential and can play any position on the floor if asked to. If I had to bet on a player on this list that can eventually become a top 5 player ever, I'd put my money on giannis. (not saying he will be, but I do think his potential is insane).

Giannis
KAT (but not far behind)
AD
KP

I wanna see more of embiid before I start praising him, he's gotta stay on the court

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FlashBolt
08-11-2017, 01:04 PM
The person saying KAT regressed is off but KAT hasn't improved much. His performance increase is due to playing more minutes and taking more shots. His numbers are all averaging out to the same in FG%, rebounds, assists, and blocks. Points are the only difference and that's due to like I said, more shot attempts. There hasn't been much improvement defensively and offensively, until he develops a three point shot, I think he has a fully developed game already. It's scary that he's this young and that good already but it's also a sign that his best may just be a bit better. I'm not hating on KAT. I'd take him top five but I think the positions such as SF, SG/PG are just more impactful in today's game.

Hawkeye15
08-11-2017, 01:49 PM
The person saying KAT regressed is off but KAT hasn't improved much. His performance increase is due to playing more minutes and taking more shots. His numbers are all averaging out to the same in FG%, rebounds, assists, and blocks. Points are the only difference and that's due to like I said, more shot attempts. There hasn't been much improvement defensively and offensively, until he develops a three point shot, I think he has a fully developed game already. It's scary that he's this young and that good already but it's also a sign that his best may just be a bit better. I'm not hating on KAT. I'd take him top five but I think the positions such as SF, SG/PG are just more impactful in today's game.

KAT year 1/2

PER
1-22.5
2-25.9

Offensive rating
1-112
2-121

3%
1-34%
2-36.5%

WS
1-8.3
2-12.7

WS/48
1-.151
2-.201

VORP
1-3.1
2-5.3

FTA rate up, turnover rate down

How exactly is he not improving? Despite being only behind Durant for long 2 accuracy, he took less last season, sending his TS%, offensive rating, PER, and every other offensive measure, into elite category. He has a real argument as the best offensive big in the entire game. If you believe he will get to above average defensively, he lands in the top 5 players in the league when that happens.

Not really sure what you are watching, or what numbers you are looking at. His trends show that he is an all star level player, and shooting upwards. All NBA teams are going to have him sitting there for years soon enough. He will be in the MVP conversation in the next few years. Maybe people were spoiled that he had one of the best 4-5 rookie years in modern history, but the guy did improve, and if his trends continue, will be pushing for one of the best in the game in a couple of years.

FlashBolt
08-11-2017, 04:45 PM
KAT year 1/2

PER
1-22.5
2-25.9

Offensive rating
1-112
2-121

3%
1-34%
2-36.5%

WS
1-8.3
2-12.7

WS/48
1-.151
2-.201

VORP
1-3.1
2-5.3

FTA rate up, turnover rate down

How exactly is he not improving? Despite being only behind Durant for long 2 accuracy, he took less last season, sending his TS%, offensive rating, PER, and every other offensive measure, into elite category. He has a real argument as the best offensive big in the entire game. If you believe he will get to above average defensively, he lands in the top 5 players in the league when that happens.

Not really sure what you are watching, or what numbers you are looking at. His trends show that he is an all star level player, and shooting upwards. All NBA teams are going to have him sitting there for years soon enough. He will be in the MVP conversation in the next few years. Maybe people were spoiled that he had one of the best 4-5 rookie years in modern history, but the guy did improve, and if his trends continue, will be pushing for one of the best in the game in a couple of years.

You're looking at the numbers way too much. I just listed out the PER36 numbers because some people think he's averaging Wilt numbers. His game, physical game, is still the same. He's gotten better (like I have said), but I don't see a huge change. Primarily, I think his game will be the same next season as well. It's nice that he's still young with lots of potential but we said the same thing about Blake Griffin - even though he had an amazing beginning career (after his injury, of course). Numbers are also very deceiving. Stephen Curry had a huge dropoff from last season. Advanced numbers are down bigtime. Does that mean Stephen Curry really declined that much? Nope. I'm just saying, from a tangible perspective of the game, I don't see how KAT can truly improve moreso than he is a player right now until he develops a three point shot and or becomes a better rim protector. As it is, he's still a top 20 player. He'll easily be a top 10 player, soon. But right now, no, I don't see him as a much better player as he was last year. And I certainly don't think he'll be a top five player.

FlashBolt
08-11-2017, 05:00 PM
KAT's needs to improve:

Three point shooting. Wiggins, Teague, Butler.. these guys can't shoot and won't be able to next season either. They need some shooters and KAT needs to be able to at least space the floor a bit so the other guys can attack the paint. He's got a decent midrange shot but teams are playing way too close. Minny is just terrible at shooting the ball and I think that'll be difficult to overcome if they dig themselves to a deficit.

Defense. One of the worst defensive players last year (statistically and tangible). He's just not a very smart defender. Gets himself in foul trouble too early into the game and having to sit out puts his team at a risk for an early disadvantage. He's certainly capable of playing defense but needs to improve his lower body strength. Too often he just gets eaten up because he lacks the leg strength to stay in position.

Like I said, the guy has a tremendous offensive game and incredible fundamentals. He's damn near polished as a player such as Timmy D was early in his career. KAT will have a very long career because you can't teach those fundamentals but to take his game to the next level, he has to show drastic improvements in the two areas above.

Hawkeye15
08-11-2017, 05:23 PM
KAT's needs to improve:

Three point shooting. Wiggins, Teague, Butler.. these guys can't shoot and won't be able to next season either. They need some shooters and KAT needs to be able to at least space the floor a bit so the other guys can attack the paint. He's got a decent midrange shot but teams are playing way too close. Minny is just terrible at shooting the ball and I think that'll be difficult to overcome if they dig themselves to a deficit.

Defense. One of the worst defensive players last year (statistically and tangible). He's just not a very smart defender. Gets himself in foul trouble too early into the game and having to sit out puts his team at a risk for an early disadvantage. He's certainly capable of playing defense but needs to improve his lower body strength. Too often he just gets eaten up because he lacks the leg strength to stay in position.

Like I said, the guy has a tremendous offensive game and incredible fundamentals. He's damn near polished as a player such as Timmy D was early in his career. KAT will have a very long career because you can't teach those fundamentals but to take his game to the next level, he has to show drastic improvements in the two areas above.

his his age/tenure, Towns is just fine shooting the 3. Post all star break, he shot 42% from 3, and improved by 2.5%, while taking 193 more attempts. Trending, he will be a very good long range threat.

Offensively, he is already pushing best center in the game. It's all about continued development on offense (expected), and turning into a defender. That being said, he has a LONG ways to go as a defender.

Jets012
08-11-2017, 06:02 PM
Gonna sound crazy but something rubs me the wrong way about Giannis. I get all the counting stats and metrics are great with him, but I just seriously question with his style whether you could ever win something with him as your #1 option. He's freakishly talented but until he becomes a better shooter (which may never happen), I don't think he's an easy fit on a lot of championship rosters.

Now I know Towns and AD haven't really shown this (something still rubs me the wrong way about AD and his inability as a #1 to will teams with mediocre to average talent to the playoffs), but KAT has crazy upside. Talk about a player who has literally every single talent you can have on the offensive end. Like people said, if the defense just becomes respectable, this guy is going to be a consensus top 4/5 player year in year out. I trust Thibs too to get him there.

Don't sleep on Jokic though guys. Another mediocre defender but he's as skilled as it gets from a big that I've seen in recent years. Offensive dynamo.

FlashBolt
08-11-2017, 06:08 PM
Gonna sound crazy but something rubs me the wrong way about Giannis. I get all the counting stats and metrics are great with him, but I just seriously question with his style whether you could ever win something with him as your #1 option. He's freakishly talented but until he becomes a better shooter (which may never happen), I don't think he's an easy fit on a lot of championship rosters.

Now I know Towns and AD haven't really shown this (something still rubs me the wrong way about AD and his inability as a #1 to will teams with mediocre to average talent to the playoffs), but KAT has crazy upside. Talk about a player who has literally every single talent you can have on the offensive end. Like people said, if the defense just becomes respectable, this guy is going to be a consensus top 4/5 player year in year out. I trust Thibs too to get him there.

Don't sleep on Jokic though guys. Another mediocre defender but he's as skilled as it gets from a big that I've seen in recent years. Offensive dynamo.

I agree on Giannis. His physical stature is just too damn imposing to where I think if he could at least get his 3P% to 36-38%, he'll be a top five player. His defense is also improving every season. I would not be surprised if he gets a few DPOY candidacy votes by the time his career ends. Not as good as Kawhi but lots of potential. I hate his decision making at times, too. Feels like he could be more aggressive sometimes but then passes it up.


Had to remind myself how insane Giannis physical feats is.. Watch the play at 1:35.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMDTdsB1U_s

My God. How many players can make that move?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S95LLMoY6b8

What about this? He's just gliding in the air at that point. And you can't foul him or it'll be a flagrant cause that's a damn dirty move when he's in the air. He took an extra step so it's a travel but I didn't even notice that he basically got from the halfcourt to the basket with just two dribbles.

5ass
08-11-2017, 07:52 PM
his his age/tenure, Towns is just fine shooting the 3. Post all star break, he shot 42% from 3, and improved by 2.5%, while taking 193 more attempts. Trending, he will be a very good long range threat.

Offensively, he is already pushing best center in the game. It's all about continued development on offense (expected), and turning into a defender. That being said, he has a LONG ways to go as a defender.

He's already the best shooting center in the league if im not mistaken... i cant think of anyone better off the top of my head.

5ass
08-11-2017, 07:58 PM
Gonna sound crazy but something rubs me the wrong way about Giannis. I get all the counting stats and metrics are great with him, but I just seriously question with his style whether you could ever win something with him as your #1 option. He's freakishly talented but until he becomes a better shooter (which may never happen), I don't think he's an easy fit on a lot of championship rosters.

Now I know Towns and AD haven't really shown this (something still rubs me the wrong way about AD and his inability as a #1 to will teams with mediocre to average talent to the playoffs), but KAT has crazy upside. Talk about a player who has literally every single talent you can have on the offensive end. Like people said, if the defense just becomes respectable, this guy is going to be a consensus top 4/5 player year in year out. I trust Thibs too to get him there.

Don't sleep on Jokic though guys. Another mediocre defender but he's as skilled as it gets from a big that I've seen in recent years. Offensive dynamo.

I agree 100%, and i love Jokic, but I think he's a tier below. Im not sure he'll ever be MVP material, but he'll be a multi time all star. I cant wait to see him and Millsap this season. They should be a perfect fit.

alexander_37
08-20-2017, 10:14 AM
A recent article on Bleacher report lists these players as the top ten under the age of 25 in the NBA. Which of these players (or a player off this list) would you select to build your franchise around and why?
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Kyrie Irving
Karl-Anthony Towns
Joel Embiid
Kristaps Porzingis
Nikola Jokic
Bradley Beal
Andre Drummond
Andrew Wiggins

I would probably start with

Giannis

KAT
Embiid
Davis

Porzingod

Middle 3 are really close

Vinsanity115
08-22-2017, 01:44 PM
This is tough. I'm a huge Giannis believer...but I think in todays game, getting a big is more advantageous. Seriously Giannis can be a star, if he isn't already, but KAT or Davis for me. KAT because health issues. I'm not huge fan of either, but I always am starting with a potential dominant big before anything. They are few and far between.

FlashBolt
08-22-2017, 02:05 PM
This is tough. I'm a huge Giannis believer...but I think in todays game, getting a big is more advantageous. Seriously Giannis can be a star, if he isn't already, but KAT or Davis for me. KAT because health issues. I'm not huge fan of either, but I always am starting with a potential dominant big before anything. They are few and far between.

There's a report saying Giannis has knee issues already and that he's playing through it since he's young but that it may be a bigger issue down the line. Responding to your post about being big, Giannis's height and length is nothing to scoff at. He's like 6'11. With his arms, this guy might as well be a big man. Just needs to bulk up if that's where they want him to play.

WaDe03
08-22-2017, 02:10 PM
Giannis needs to develop a jump shot sooner rather than later. It not really respectable from anywhere on the court. If he does this he'll probably be a top 3 player soon.

Vinsanity115
08-29-2017, 04:12 PM
There's a report saying Giannis has knee issues already and that he's playing through it since he's young but that it may be a bigger issue down the line. Responding to your post about being big, Giannis's height and length is nothing to scoff at. He's like 6'11. With his arms, this guy might as well be a big man. Just needs to bulk up if that's where they want him to play.True, I meant just pf/center position in general. Giannis is definitely a guard/forward.

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