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lol, please
04-30-2017, 02:59 AM
The question is simple. If Durant is healthy and leads this Warriors team to a title, where would you rank him all time?

PER 25.2 TS% .608 AST% 18.3 OWS 85.0 DWS 34.9 WS 119.8 WS/48 .219 (career)

NBA MVP x1
8 NBA All-Star
5 All-NBA First Team
All-NBA Second Team
4 NBA scoring champion
NBA All-Star Game MVP
NBA Rookie of the Year
NBA All-Rookie First Team
NBA Rookie Challenge MVP

A player of this caliber, and then you add a ring, where would you rank him all time?

HandsOnTheWheel
04-30-2017, 03:05 AM
Oh with the NBA Rookie Challenge MVP, top 5 all time for sure..

valade16
04-30-2017, 03:27 AM
He's in the Curry/Wade/CP3 discussion. Him and Curry obviously have more time to ascend and surpass Wade/CP3, but right now anywhere from 20-30 is where most will have him.

LOb0
04-30-2017, 03:43 AM
lol "Leads" I'm not sure its possible to lead with a team that stacked.

Saddletramp
04-30-2017, 04:11 AM
^^^^

KnicksorBust
04-30-2017, 07:34 AM
Oh with the NBA Rookie Challenge MVP, top 5 all time for sure..

I will never forget the year Boobie Gibson won and it propelled him into superstardom.

KnicksorBust
04-30-2017, 07:34 AM
He's in the Curry/Wade/CP3 discussion. Him and Curry obviously have more time to ascend and surpass Wade/CP3, but right now anywhere from 20-30 is where most will have him.

How do you rank durant in that group?

WaDe03
04-30-2017, 11:20 AM
It honestly adds nothing to his legacy in my eyes.

Vinylman
04-30-2017, 11:24 AM
It honestly adds nothing to his legacy in my eyes.

exactly... it is meaningless

Tg11
04-30-2017, 11:26 AM
Durant if he wins the title it will be because of the fact that he left one team to go to another to ring chase so it won't add nothing to his legacy...I mean his legacy was already established when he left OKC the way he did to go to a team that beat him in the playoffs

WaDe03
04-30-2017, 11:34 AM
Durant if he wins the title it will be because of the fact that he left one team to go to another to ring chase so it won't add nothing to his legacy...I mean his legacy was already established when he left OKC the way he did to go to a team that beat him in the playoffs

And a team that went 73-9 before he signed with them.

PhillySportFan
04-30-2017, 11:37 AM
lol "Leads" I'm not sure its possible to lead with a team that stacked.

Exactly, how can you claim he's "leading" a team coming off back to back NBA finals appearances. He joined them to get a free title, if he wanted to lead a team to an NBA title he would of stayed in OKC or joined a team where he'd be the clear cut number 1 on the team.

tredigs
04-30-2017, 11:39 AM
A "free title" lmfao. They lost.

Chronz
04-30-2017, 11:40 AM
Pretty sure the same where I've always had him, hes only going to move up based on longevity or if he sacks up and actually has to become a leader instead of this beta hes remained for awhile now.

Tg11
04-30-2017, 11:41 AM
Exactly he should have stayed in OKC or if he was going to leave to go to a team where he would have been the clear cut number 1 then teams he could have gone to being the Heat, Wizards, Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Nuggets or even the Magic or even the Knicks

GREATNESS ONE
04-30-2017, 12:17 PM
Durant is doing what Lebron has been doing the last 8 years or so now. If it counts for Lebron, it counts for Durant.

WaDe03
04-30-2017, 12:20 PM
A "free title" lmfao. They lost.

They won 73 games then the best player in the world behind LeBron left the dynasty he was trying to build to join that team. There's nothing impressive about a championship for them this season.

WaDe03
04-30-2017, 12:21 PM
Durant is doing what Lebron has been doing the last 8 years or so now. If it counts for Lebron, it counts for Durant.

No he isn't and it's not close. LeBron joined a team that won 43 games and then a team that was 1st in the lottery, Durant joined a team with the greatest record of all time.

Tg11
04-30-2017, 12:23 PM
I know right Durant in the words of Westbrook is a ***** *** n**** I mean what he did was a ***** move and if he wins the title at best it would be a free title

GREATNESS ONE
04-30-2017, 12:35 PM
No he isn't and it's not close. LeBron joined a team that won 43 games and then a team that was 1st in the lottery, Durant joined a team with the greatest record of all time.

It's not even close? Lololololololololol ok.

Joining Wade, Bosh in their primes? They were supposed to win 8 titles. As soon as the tough got going, he returns to Cleveland and basically plays GM making the move for Love?

Yea, not even close riiiiiiggght. You guys keep telling yourselves that. It's the exact same thing, I don't blame for Durant to use the same antics to try and win a championship.

Chronz
04-30-2017, 01:42 PM
Durant is doing what Lebron has been doing the last 8 years or so now. If it counts for Lebron, it counts for Durant.

A tired argument that ignores the chasm of a difference. He went above and beyond what Bron did, Bron has more in common with other defections than KD joining a team that could compete at such a high level without his contributions.

krazylegz
04-30-2017, 01:44 PM
who is KD?

Chronz
04-30-2017, 01:44 PM
They won 73 games then the best player in the world behind LeBron left the dynasty he was trying to build to join that team. There's nothing impressive about a championship for them this season.

Certainly not individually but as a team. It could go down as the best ever and they might make the finals while resting

GREATNESS ONE
04-30-2017, 02:02 PM
Cheap ischeap, it's the exact same thing. They both knew what they were doing, sure there's bits of differences in each scenario but both players had 0 rings when they did the exact same thing. It's ok, I understand it's a defensive, sensitive topic.

Let's just pretend that Durant is a horrible cowardly person for joining forces with other elite player to win a title.

Quinnsanity
04-30-2017, 02:30 PM
I said in the Wade thread that he's behind the following right now:

Bron, MJ, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Moses, Kobe, West, Oscar, Baylor, Hondo, Doc, KG (this list is not in order, but it's more generally tiered)

I reasonably expect him to pass KG, Doc, Hondo and Baylor. All that would take is a few more years at his current level.

I'd say it's about 50/50 that he passes Oscar, West, Moses and Kobe for me. We'll see how well he ages, what level of competition he faces in the Finals (if he just beats these sorry Cavs a few more times, meh) and where GSW's overall hierarchy shakes out as far as he or Curry leading the way down the stretch (it appears to be Curry at the moment, let's see how that develops).

The odds are low that he passes Shaq, Duncan or Hakeem. I'm not willing to rule out the possibility, but it would take something I can't predict, something like him winning multiple regular season MVPs, another 73-win season or just some absurd playoff stuff. Again, I won't rule it out, but it would take A LOT.

I can't see him passing Bron, MJ, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Magic or Bird. I just don't think that's in the picture right now. They are too far ahead of him. I might prefer Durant to some of these guys on the "starting a team" level, but as far as measuring their accomplishments go, I think these guys are out of his range.

I should also note that a ring means very little to me at this point. No **** he's gonna win a ring, look at the team he chose. I know how good he is, I know how well he's played in the playoffs, it doesn't mean anything to me that he stacks up a couple of rings. Rings, to me, only make a difference in fringier cases. It meant something to me that Dirk got a ring. But Durant's legacy really isn't in doubt, he's a far better player than Dirk.

So I guess I'm saying I expect him to fall somewhere in the 11-16 range, with the caveat that I have higher expectations for Curry (I COULD see him cracking that last group, though it's not likely), so really, 12-17 for Durant.

Saddletramp
04-30-2017, 03:15 PM
It's the exact same thing,




Cheap ischeap, it's the exact same thing. They both knew what they were doing, sure there's bits of differences in each scenario but both players had 0 rings when they did the exact same thing. It's ok, I understand it's a defensive, sensitive topic.

Let's just pretend that Durant is a horrible cowardly person for joining forces with other elite player to win a title.

So, is it exactly the same or are there bits of differences? You're all over the place. The differences have been illustrated and repeated too many times over the course of the past year. If you don't get it by now, you won't. Waste of time.

GREATNESS ONE
04-30-2017, 04:15 PM
So, is it exactly the same or are there bits of differences? You're all over the place. The differences have been illustrated and repeated too many times over the course of the past year. If you don't get it by now, you won't. Waste of time.

:yawn: take a seat Mijo, its obvious this is over your head.

GREATNESS ONE
04-30-2017, 04:16 PM
How is leaving a team you couldn't win with and joining forces with other elite players to win a title not the same thing?

Saddletramp
04-30-2017, 04:30 PM
I'm on the way out the door for a concert and don't have time to explain it for the thirty ****ing fifth time. If you think leaving that Cavs team that had no one else respectable to play with two dudes and no one is equal to what KD left and to who he left for then I'll be banned if I give you my opinion of your thought process.

No problem with KD leaving, but no one on his level can join that team and keep my respect. If Lebron did the same thing last year and bolted for the Warriors after being beat by them, I'd be on his case, too. I get that KD didn't gel with Westbrook any more and he wanted out, but to go there? Weak.

YAALREADYKNO
04-30-2017, 04:40 PM
He will still be looked at as a guy who ran as sad as it is it's the truth. People keep trying to say bron did the same but the heat didn't go to back to back finals while winning 1 and they also didn't set the all time wins record in the regular season

lol, please
04-30-2017, 04:42 PM
I'm on the way out the door for a concert and don't have time to explain it for the thirty ****ing fifth time. If you think leaving that Cavs team that had no one else respectable to play with two dudes and no one is equal to what KD left and to who he left for then I'll be banned if I give you my opinion of your thought process.

No problem with KD leaving, but no one on his level can join that team and keep my respect. If Lebron did the same thing last year and bolted for the Warriors after being beat by them, I'd be on his case, too. I get that KD didn't gel with Westbrook any more and he wanted out, but to go there? Weak.

Thing is, Durant didn't leave to the Warriors because they lost to them in the playoffs, that was a coincidence, same with Iggy, he didn't come over because they lost to the Warriors, these were FA moves that the course was set for already - Not every star is going to stick around for longer than reasonable if the FO isn't doing its best to build a contender. Bring in mercenary FA's or develop your draft picks, but not everyone is Kobe who is willing to sit through the good and the bad year after year.

The Warriors are a franchise that wins and is a desirable destination, and FA's are just supposed to ignore that? lmao

valade16
04-30-2017, 04:59 PM
How do you rank durant in that group?

Gut instinct in terms of their peak ability I'd have Curry, KD, CP3, Wade. However once I factor in achievement and their ability to either step their game up in big moments I think Curry, Wade, KD, CP3.

Regardless, I think KD, CP3 and Wade are so close in terms of peak ability that it's a matter of preference.

tredigs
04-30-2017, 07:25 PM
Using your guys' tears to take my shower tonight. Mahalo.

WaDe03
04-30-2017, 10:19 PM
How is leaving a team you couldn't win with and joining forces with other elite players to win a title not the same thing?

LeBron joined Wade Bosh and scrubs when he went to Miami at first. They then put the pieces together over the year so.

Durant left for Curry, Green, Klay, and a stacked *** team that just won 73 games. It's not close.

WaDe03
04-30-2017, 10:22 PM
Gut instinct in terms of their peak ability I'd have Curry, KD, CP3, Wade. However once I factor in achievement and their ability to either step their game up in big moments I think Curry, Wade, KD, CP3.

Regardless, I think KD, CP3 and Wade are so close in terms of peak ability that it's a matter of preference.

You have Wade last in terms of peak and behind Curry in terms up stepping their games up when it matters most?

In the step your game up when it matters most category Wade easily runs away with that compared to Curry KD and CP3. Curry is probably behind KD, I'm not sure how you decided that ranking.

TrueFan420
04-30-2017, 10:32 PM
LeBron joined Wade Bosh and scrubs when he went to Miami at first. They then put the pieces together over the year so.

Durant left for Curry, Green, Klay, and a stacked *** team that just won 73 games. It's not close.

Scrubs? Udonis Haslem, Mike miller, Jerry Sackhouse, ilgalskus, maglore, bibby, dampier and Juan Howard. Yea they were all older vets but their NOT scrubs. Plus the whole joining 2 top 3 players at their respective positions and 3 players arguably in the top 10. And the tv special. Come on. A little revisionist history there dude.

WaDe03
04-30-2017, 10:43 PM
Scrubs? Udonis Haslem, Mike miller, Jerry Sackhouse, ilgalskus, maglore, bibby, dampier and Juan Howard. Yea they were all older vets but their NOT scrubs. Plus the whole joining 2 top 3 players at their respective positions and 3 players arguably in the top 10. And the tv special. Come on. A little revisionist history there dude.

None of the players you listed were as good as Livingston or Iggy. Most of them were pretty bad other than Miller, Haslem had his moments. It's really not close.

They both joined a top 3 players, Durant joined 2 players who are top 3 at their position and a stacked *** team all around. And again they just won 73 games

valade16
05-01-2017, 12:00 AM
You have Wade last in terms of peak and behind Curry in terms up stepping their games up when it matters most?

In the step your game up when it matters most category Wade easily runs away with that compared to Curry KD and CP3. Curry is probably behind KD, I'm not sure how you decided that ranking.

No, once you factor in stepping up Wade moves to #2, but that isn't the only factor. Peak play is clearly Curry over all, his 2016 is one of the handful of greatest seasons ever put up.

After that I think KD is the best peak player, before his injury and before his GS move he won MVP and people were claiming he was as good as Bron. It was neck and neck. That's how good he was.

CP3 has sensational advanced lines that show he is a monster in terms of impact both offensively and defensively.

I give Wade all the credit for raising his game in 06 and 11 and that's why even though I think he's a hair worse than KD and CP3 pure peak talent/impact wise, I'd take him over them.

valade16
05-01-2017, 12:07 AM
You have Wade last in terms of peak and behind Curry in terms up stepping their games up when it matters most?

In the step your game up when it matters most category Wade easily runs away with that compared to Curry KD and CP3. Curry is probably behind KD, I'm not sure how you decided that ranking.

Went back and looked at their peak seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id1_select=Stephen+Curry&y1=2016&player_id1=curryst01&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Durant&player_id2_select=Kevin+Durant&y2=2014&player_id2=duranke01&player_id3_hint=Dwyane+Wade&player_id3_select=Dwyane+Wade&y3=2009&player_id3=wadedw01&player_id4_hint=Chris+Paul&player_id4_select=Chris+Paul&y4=2009&player_id4=paulch01

Didn't realize Wade was so good, Durant looks like the weakest one by advanced metrics. I still stand by my final rankings that I'd take Wade over KD and CP3 but yeah based on peak talent may have to go Curry, Wade, CP3, KD.

Saddletramp
05-01-2017, 12:13 AM
Thing is, Durant didn't leave to the Warriors because they lost to them in the playoffs, that was a coincidence, same with Iggy, he didn't come over because they lost to the Warriors, these were FA moves that the course was set for already - Not every star is going to stick around for longer than reasonable if the FO isn't doing its best to build a contender. Bring in mercenary FA's or develop your draft picks, but not everyone is Kobe who is willing to sit through the good and the bad year after year.

The Warriors are a franchise that wins and is a desirable destination, and FA's are just supposed to ignore that? lmao

Kobe threatened to leave and ran off one of the greatest players of all time. Don't say Kobe was always team first. I'm wondering if KD was more of an egomaniac if he would have threatened to leave if Russ wasn't traded.


And again, it's not about him leaving. It's not about free agents wanting to go there. It's an MVP caliber player in his prime joining a 73 win and already one championship winning team.

I'm wondering what you'd think/say if KD joined the Cavs. Actually, no I don't.

Saddletramp
05-01-2017, 12:15 AM
Using your guys' tears to take my shower tonight. Mahalo.

Enjoy them as much as I enjoyed yours last year. You saved me a full months water bill.

IKnowHoops
05-01-2017, 12:40 AM
The question is simple. If Durant is healthy and leads this Warriors team to a title, where would you rank him all time?

PER 25.2 TS% .608 AST% 18.3 OWS 85.0 DWS 34.9 WS 119.8 WS/48 .219 (career)

NBA MVP x1
8 NBA All-Star
5 All-NBA First Team
All-NBA Second Team
4 NBA scoring champion
NBA All-Star Game MVP
NBA Rookie of the Year
NBA All-Rookie First Team
NBA Rookie Challenge MVP

A player of this caliber, and then you add a ring, where would you rank him all time?

Well I have him on my all-time starting 5 as is. I have him ranked somewhere around 9-11 all time. I rank heavily off peak.

Avenged
05-01-2017, 12:57 AM
Durant isn't leading this team anywhere. That crown belongs to some guy named Curry.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

tredigs
05-01-2017, 01:02 AM
Enjoy them as much as I enjoyed yours last year. You saved me a full months water bill.

You're a Rockets/Harden fan. Go to sleep. It's what you're best at.

valade16
05-01-2017, 01:26 AM
Well I have him on my all-time starting 5 as is. I have him ranked somewhere around 9-11 all time. I rank heavily off peak.

You have Bron at PG correct? But KD over Bird? Peak wise it's close but given Bird's toughness and clutch (things we haven't seen consistently from KD), I'd pick Bird. Of course if Bron isn't at PG I pick him.

Chronz
05-01-2017, 01:41 AM
How is leaving a team you couldn't win with and joining forces with other elite players to win a title not the same thing?

So basically every departure is the same thing?

What if players steer their way towards a contender before even entering the NBA? Is that the same too?

Chronz
05-01-2017, 01:48 AM
How much to dock Wade for his injuries are a problem but at his apex I think I take him over any of the players you guys have mentioned. I want to put KD on that platform but I have to see something historical from him if he insists on winning with soooo much more talent than the competition it would make Bill Russell blush.

Curry would be on that level if not for his underwhelming play (by these high standards mind you) in the post season. I still put he and CP3 on equal footing peak/prime but fully acknowledge the legacy rankings are going to favor Curry if it hasn't already happened.

valade16
05-01-2017, 01:56 AM
How much to dock Wade for his injuries are a problem but at his apex I think I take him over any of the players you guys have mentioned. I want to put KD on that platform but I have to see something historical from him if he insists on winning with soooo much more talent than the competition it would make Bill Russell blush.

Curry would be on that level if not for his underwhelming play (by these high standards mind you) in the post season. I still put he and CP3 on equal footing peak/prime but fully acknowledge the legacy rankings are going to favor Curry if it hasn't already happened.

I was shocked to see Durant's peak season's #'s be below Wade's and CP3's.

Do you think Wade or CP3 have had a season as good as Curry's 2016 and if so, what years?

mngopher35
05-01-2017, 01:14 PM
I have said it before but I think the move kinda capped where we will rank not only Durant but even curry as well. These guys are expected to win year after year now with many calling it (one of) the most stacked teams ever. It just won't be as impressive individually for them when they win and neither has really had all time level playoffs yet either so whatever they get now might be it (and again it won't be as impressive with how loaded they are).

We will have to just see what happens moving forward but my guess is we won't see a major jump from Durant.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 01:19 PM
Titles don't just boost you up in rankings. Impact matters. If LeBron had won a ring last year while having a terrible performance and thus, K.Love and Kyrie carried him, I don't boost LeBron up at all. As much as I hate KD's decision, it all depends on how bad his teammates play and if they win or not. If KD plays like the best player despite his teammates average performance, then I would say it should boost him up to top 20. At the end of the day, I think he gets to top 20 either way with or without a ring. He's a top 10 player potential type of guy who probably ranks as the greatest scorer ever. If however he wins a ring and Warriors just spank the Cavs, I don't boost him up at all. Sorry, but joining a stacked team doesn't make you better than the players in the rankings.

GREATNESS ONE
05-01-2017, 02:26 PM
If you're a top 5 player and you leave your team to join 2 more top 10 players. Yes it's the same thing. Not too sure how anyone can praise Lebron and kick Durant for doing the same thing. Amusing really, how defensive and the arguments trying to be made.

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 02:35 PM
Went back and looked at their peak seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Stephen+Curry&player_id1_select=Stephen+Curry&y1=2016&player_id1=curryst01&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Durant&player_id2_select=Kevin+Durant&y2=2014&player_id2=duranke01&player_id3_hint=Dwyane+Wade&player_id3_select=Dwyane+Wade&y3=2009&player_id3=wadedw01&player_id4_hint=Chris+Paul&player_id4_select=Chris+Paul&y4=2009&player_id4=paulch01

Didn't realize Wade was so good, Durant looks like the weakest one by advanced metrics. I still stand by my final rankings that I'd take Wade over KD and CP3 but yeah based on peak talent may have to go Curry, Wade, CP3, KD.

I guess I can see your reasoning but I'm going to take the guy that's going to score the same amount of points, get his teammates involved with assists just as much, and then have the ability to lock up his opponent.

What's your reasoning in having Wade behind Curry when it comes to stepping up in the biggest moments? I think this is easily Wade as he's stepped up to level Curry KD and CP3 never have and led his team to a championship by doing so. Meanwhile Curry has underperformed on the biggest stage.

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 02:39 PM
I was shocked to see Durant's peak season's #'s be below Wade's and CP3's.

Do you think Wade or CP3 have had a season as good as Curry's 2016 and if so, what years?

Wade in 08-09 was top 3 in MVP and DPOY, my biased opinion thinks he should've been MVP but the only other guard to finish that high in both categories is Jordan.

06-07 may have ended even better. He was averaging 29-5-8-2-1 on 50% shooting until dislocating his shoulder and shattering his rotator cuff. He was leading the MVP race and he may have been on track for back to back titles/finals MVPs to go with it.

I would say those would rival Curry in 2016 but I'm also a both sides of the ball type of guy. I just don't have it in my to declare someone so great if they can't do it on both ends.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 02:55 PM
If you're a top 5 player and you leave your team to join 2 more top 10 players. Yes it's the same thing. Not too sure how anyone can praise Lebron and kick Durant for doing the same thing. Amusing really, how defensive and the arguments trying to be made.

amazing how people still think LeBron with Miami = KD with Warriors. It's more like LeBron + Boston with KG+PP+Ray Allen+Rondo+LeBron. But you can keep trying to pretend you don't see a clear difference.

valade16
05-01-2017, 03:05 PM
I guess I can see your reasoning but I'm going to take the guy that's going to score the same amount of points, get his teammates involved with assists just as much, and then have the ability to lock up his opponent.

What's your reasoning in having Wade behind Curry when it comes to stepping up in the biggest moments? I think this is easily Wade as he's stepped up to level Curry KD and CP3 never have and led his team to a championship by doing so. Meanwhile Curry has underperformed on the biggest stage.

First Bolded: But that isn't true. Curry played 4 less MPG to score the same amount of points. Curry's Per 100 possessions point total was 42.5 and Wade's was 41.8. But that's near even, where they get separated is the efficiency. Wade had a TS% of .574 that season whereas Curry's was .669, which led the entire league.

Then we get into how much their presence impacts the other players on the floor. Wade certainly made his teammates better, but nobody short of Shaq or MJ has demanded as much attention offensively as Curry did in 2016. 2 defenders were required to double-team Curry 30' from the basket on screens. This opened the offense up for everyone, which is why they had one of the best offense in NBA history.

Second Bolded: I never said Curry stepped up in big moments more than Wade, I said once you factor that into the overall equation. It is only part of the analysis. Wade has stepped up in the Finals more than Curry. But Curry's overall play at his peak is just superior to Wade's IMO. And it does show how good Curry is that his "bad" finals performances were 22 PPG and 26 PPG on 58% TS.

IKnowHoops
05-01-2017, 03:09 PM
You have Bron at PG correct? But KD over Bird? Peak wise it's close but given Bird's toughness and clutch (things we haven't seen consistently from KD), I'd pick Bird. Of course if Bron isn't at PG I pick him.

Correct, yeah I like Durants speed, length and defense over Bird too. and yes I have Lebron at PG

PG Lebron
SG Mike
SF Durant
PF Admiral
C Shaq

I do like Durant over Bird as an individual, but even more so, I think his fit on the team is better. I'd want every one to be extreme athletes and Durant is close enough to Bird in shooting and better defensively so I will take a team will three agile 7 footers who all play like 8 footers and then a PG and a SG who both play like 8 footers as well.

lol, please
05-01-2017, 03:10 PM
I have said it before but I think the move kinda capped where we will rank not only Durant but even curry as well. These guys are expected to win year after year now with many calling it (one of) the most stacked teams ever. It just won't be as impressive individually for them when they win and neither has really had all time level playoffs yet either so whatever they get now might be it (and again it won't be as impressive with how loaded they are).

We will have to just see what happens moving forward but my guess is we won't see a major jump from Durant.

I fail to see why it's a knock on a guy to be on a "stacked" team. It's like the people (read, haters) who try to discredit the 49ers dynasty by trying to use a weak "but Montana had Rice, but Rice had Montana, what if..." argument.

By your logic the only way we can measure greats is by putting them all on squads with D-leaguers to see who can carry substantially less skilled and talented players over the hump. Those situations aren't created intentionally, rather it's a great player overcoming insurmountable odds and succeeding despite the fact that there are so many challenges involved.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 03:10 PM
First Bolded: But that isn't true. Curry played 4 less MPG to score the same amount of points. Curry's Per 100 possessions point total was 42.5 and Wade's was 41.8. But that's near even, where they get separated is the efficiency. Wade had a TS% of .574 that season whereas Curry's was .669, which led the entire league.

Then we get into how much their presence impacts the other players on the floor. Wade certainly made his teammates better, but nobody short of Shaq or MJ has demanded as much attention offensively as Curry did in 2016. 2 defenders were required to double-team Curry 30' from the basket on screens. This opened the offense up for everyone, which is why they had one of the best offense in NBA history.

Second Bolded: I never said Curry stepped up in big moments more than Wade, I said once you factor that into the overall equation. It is only part of the analysis. Wade has stepped up in the Finals more than Curry. But Curry's overall play at his peak is just superior to Wade's IMO. And it does show how good Curry is that his "bad" finals performances were 22 PPG and 26 PPG on 58% TS.

Not taking anything away from Curry but part of why Warriors were so great had a lot to do with his much better teammates and the explosion of the three pointer. Whereas most teams were still adjusting to this three pointer, Warriors basically changed the game. I don't think anyone expected it to be such a weapon and it has now become the formula for success (just look at Houston). So how the game has changed and Curry being the one leading it certainly elevated his perceived performance. Then we gotta look at his NBA Finals performances. They were bad, man. I get the PPG thing but what else did he do? He was the 2x MVP but didn't play like one. If he played like an MVP, Warriors should have won both Finals series with ease.

lol, please
05-01-2017, 03:13 PM
Not taking anything away from Curry but part of why Warriors were so great had a lot to do with his much better teammates and the explosion of the three pointer. Whereas most teams were still adjusting to this three pointer, Warriors basically changed the game. I don't think anyone expected it to be such a weapon and it has now become the formula for success (just look at Houston). So how the game has changed and Curry being the one leading it certainly elevated his perceived performance. Then we gotta look at his NBA Finals performances. They were bad, man. I get the PPG thing but what else did he do? He was the 2x MVP but didn't play like one. If he played like an MVP, Warriors should have won both Finals series with ease.

Wrong, and quickly disproven.

I know it's been brought up to you before, but you need to refresh your memory and pay attention to Curry's +/- and win shares.

valade16
05-01-2017, 03:26 PM
Correct, yeah I like Durants speed, length and defense over Bird too. and yes I have Lebron at PG

PG Lebron
SG Mike
SF Durant
PF Admiral
C Shaq

I do like Durant over Bird as an individual, but even more so, I think his fit on the team is better. I'd want every one to be extreme athletes and Durant is close enough to Bird in shooting and better defensively so I will take a team will three agile 7 footers who all play like 8 footers and then a PG and a SG who both play like 8 footers as well.

I remember seeing it before but couldn't remember everyone who was on it. Shaq and D-Rob had almost no range and they would seemingly crowd the paint for MJ and LeBron's drives. Outside of KD there is no consistent outside shot (although MJ and LeBron could certainly shoot it from there, they were streaky). Defensively obviously the length and athleticism would give any opposing team fits. And of course this analysis is discounting that as stacked as that team is, it would be so much better than every other team from a talent standpoint they'd win regardless of their fit concerns lol.

tredigs
05-01-2017, 03:56 PM
Not taking anything away from Curry but part of why Warriors were so great had a lot to do with his much better teammates and the explosion of the three pointer. Whereas most teams were still adjusting to this three pointer, Warriors basically changed the game. I don't think anyone expected it to be such a weapon and it has now become the formula for success (just look at Houston). So how the game has changed and Curry being the one leading it certainly elevated his perceived performance. Then we gotta look at his NBA Finals performances. They were bad, man. I get the PPG thing but what else did he do? He was the 2x MVP but didn't play like one. If he played like an MVP, Warriors should have won both Finals series with ease.

I'll give him playing well below his par in the past Finals (no need to rehash that talk), but to call him "bad" in their championship is such a ****ing joke. Dude averaged 26/5/6 on a 59% TS and only had one game that was a true stinker. He damn near single handedly lead them to an epic comeback victory in G3 by going on a rampage and posting 17 4th quarter points (an NBA RECORD that he did two times that series mind you), and in the Final 4 games of the series he posted 28/5/6 +2.3 steals on 49/48/86 en route to coming back from 2-1 and take the last 3 in a row. That's what you call an MVP performance. Glad Iggy got the FMVP because he was amazing in his role it makes the team that much tighter, but in no way should the guy who was literally left wide open by the opposing team in order to try to pin more pressure on Curry be the FMVP. Particularly when the guy he was guarding nearly won FMVP himself.

Bostonjorge
05-01-2017, 03:59 PM
If you're a top 5 player and you leave your team to join 2 more top 10 players. Yes it's the same thing. Not too sure how anyone can praise Lebron and kick Durant for doing the same thing. Amusing really, how defensive and the arguments trying to be made.
The best part when James started the whole teaming up to form a super team was when his Stan's saw no difference in the decision and any other player going to a team in free agency. They where "baffled" on the hate James got.

KD goes to GS and now they see the problem and backlash of the decision. My guess is that KD reminds everyone of the cheap rings James has because KD is about to get his own.

valade16
05-01-2017, 04:09 PM
If you're a top 5 player and you leave your team to join 2 more top 10 players. Yes it's the same thing. Not too sure how anyone can praise Lebron and kick Durant for doing the same thing. Amusing really, how defensive and the arguments trying to be made.

I don't think they're the same arguments. LeBron, Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie, they hadn't won the title the year before. KD joined a team that literally won a title the year before.

Just curious, which team do you think is the best?

The Warriors without KD.
The Heat without James.
The Cavs without James.

tredigs
05-01-2017, 04:17 PM
I don't think they're the same arguments. LeBron, Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie, they hadn't won the title the year before. KD joined a team that literally won a title the year before.

Just curious, which team do you think is the best?

The Warriors without KD.
The Heat without James.
The Cavs without James.

Clearly Warriors without KD.

Clearly the self proclaimed "Chosen One" James is better than Durant.

Clearly (well, we'll give it "TBD" for arguments sake) the Warriors with KD are better than the Heat and Cavs with James.

mngopher35
05-01-2017, 04:21 PM
I fail to see why it's a knock on a guy to be on a "stacked" team. It's like the people (read, haters) who try to discredit the 49ers dynasty by trying to use a weak "but Montana had Rice, but Rice had Montana, what if..." argument.

By your logic the only way we can measure greats is by putting them all on squads with D-leaguers to see who can carry substantially less skilled and talented players over the hump. Those situations aren't created intentionally, rather it's a great player overcoming insurmountable odds and succeeding despite the fact that there are so many challenges involved.

Not at all. I am saying you don't get extra credit for winning on a team that is right now is basically 2/1 to win it right now because they are so loaded (220 to win 100 on my site). If they win it is mostly because they were basically expected to win without him than it is due to his own greatness. Like sure he will play well and deserves credit for being the player he is in this situation but I am not sure winning is gonna make people look at him differently given the circumstances. I don't hate him as a person etc for his choices but he also doesn't just get extra credit for joining a team that has proven capable without him.

Again I said we have to just see what happens, maybe injuries take place and we see that greatness and him carrying his team to a win or something. I am just saying the most likely outcome is GS winning right now and it's not even close, so when it happens it likely won't greatly boost his legacy. Nothing is certain yet though.

valade16
05-01-2017, 04:35 PM
How much weight do people give Scottie Pippen's 6 titles on the Bulls? Why should Durant's title's be given more weight than Scottie's?

tredigs
05-01-2017, 05:21 PM
How much weight do people give Scottie Pippen's 6 titles on the Bulls? Why should Durant's title's be given more weight than Scottie's?

They give him a lot of credit, it's part of the reason why he is a top ~30 player in history. How about we wait to see what actually happens in the future before we write KD's legacy?

valade16
05-01-2017, 05:26 PM
They give him a lot of credit, it's part of the reason why he is a top ~30 player in history. How about we wait to see what actually happens in the future before we write KD's legacy?

So long as you do the same for Gobert...

tredigs
05-01-2017, 05:35 PM
So long as you do the same for Gobert...

Lol, I commented on Gobert's on court impact in the biggest game of his career to date. He got an F- , but in no way am I writing his legacy. Recognize that I am speaking about on court facts, whereas you are in storytime land.

valade16
05-01-2017, 05:56 PM
Lol, I commented on Gobert's on court impact in the biggest game of his career to date. He got an F- , but in no way am I writing his legacy. Recognize that I am speaking about on court facts, whereas you are in storytime land.

OK, on court facts: the Warriors without Durant not only had no trouble beating the Blazers, they had their best game without him.

Storytime land that into somehow not mattering to KD's legacy lol.

Gibby23
05-01-2017, 06:03 PM
This team just won 19 of its last 20 games, a lot of them without Durant. So far this season he has hurt his all time standing because the Warriors are still a finals team without him.

tredigs
05-01-2017, 06:12 PM
OK, on court facts: the Warriors without Durant not only had no trouble beating the Blazers, they had their best game without him.

Storytime land that into somehow not mattering to KD's legacy lol.
There's only a few teams right now (Right. Now. Not necessarily in the years ahead) that would/will put up a fight against the Warriors without KD, and the Blazers without Nurkic are certainly not among them. Color us all not shocked they chugged along fine there. This Jazz series with Utah at full strength for the first time this season is a different story

goingfor28
05-01-2017, 06:27 PM
KD isn't "leading" anything. He's a follower.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 06:42 PM
First Bolded: But that isn't true. Curry played 4 less MPG to score the same amount of points. Curry's Per 100 possessions point total was 42.5 and Wade's was 41.8. But that's near even, where they get separated is the efficiency. Wade had a TS% of .574 that season whereas Curry's was .669, which led the entire league.

Then we get into how much their presence impacts the other players on the floor. Wade certainly made his teammates better, but nobody short of Shaq or MJ has demanded as much attention offensively as Curry did in 2016. 2 defenders were required to double-team Curry 30' from the basket on screens. This opened the offense up for everyone, which is why they had one of the best offense in NBA history.

Second Bolded: I never said Curry stepped up in big moments more than Wade, I said once you factor that into the overall equation. It is only part of the analysis. Wade has stepped up in the Finals more than Curry. But Curry's overall play at his peak is just superior to Wade's IMO. And it does show how good Curry is that his "bad" finals performances were 22 PPG and 26 PPG on 58% TS.

I see, I just misunderstood you then. TS is definitely rough on guys that aren't 3 point shooters.

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 06:46 PM
Not taking anything away from Curry but part of why Warriors were so great had a lot to do with his much better teammates and the explosion of the three pointer. Whereas most teams were still adjusting to this three pointer, Warriors basically changed the game. I don't think anyone expected it to be such a weapon and it has now become the formula for success (just look at Houston). So how the game has changed and Curry being the one leading it certainly elevated his perceived performance. Then we gotta look at his NBA Finals performances. They were bad, man. I get the PPG thing but what else did he do? He was the 2x MVP but didn't play like one. If he played like an MVP, Warriors should have won both Finals series with ease.

Yea while defenses definitely had to put a lot of attention on Curry he also had great teammates. With the teams wade had you had to stop Wade and that's it he was also still able to average almost 8 APG playing next to some pretty bad teammates and rookies.

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 06:48 PM
Wrong, and quickly disproven.

I know it's been brought up to you before, but you need to refresh your memory and pay attention to Curry's +/- and win shares.

That's not wrong at all though lol. He was next to 2 guys who were top 3 at their position and people were saying green was a top 10 player last year. They had very good role players too.

tredigs
05-01-2017, 07:00 PM
That's not wrong at all though lol. He was next to 2 guys who were top 3 at their position and people were saying green was a top 10 player last year. They had very good role players too.

Lol, and you think he's been playing with them his entire career? Do you remember this kid in his early years, or in college? He always crushed, he just improved as the years passed (and we're seeing this year that he's actually more impressive individually sans Durant, which goes against that theory). This is a kid who led NCAA in scoring and in one game an opposing coach simply went crazy and decided at all costs to just double Curry full court all game. He did not score a point, but instead passed the ball to the open man all game and they won by 35. Coach Bobby Knight called him the best college passer he had ever seen. As a rookie after a streaky start alongside the black hole that was Monta Ellis and little frontcourt help to speak of he finished the season's last 50 games averaging 22/5/7 on 47/45/90 (broke the rookie record for 3's made in the process). We do in fact know that he can crush in any situation.

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 07:18 PM
Lol, and you think he's been playing with them his entire career? Do you remember this kid in his early years, or in college? He always crushed, he just improved as the years passed (and we're seeing this year that he's actually more impressive individually sans Durant, which goes against that theory). This is a kid who led NCAA in scoring and in one game an opposing coach simply went crazy and decided at all costs to just double Curry full court all game. He did not score a point, but instead passed the ball to the open man all game and they won by 35. Coach Bobby Knight called him the best college passer he had ever seen. As a rookie after a streaky start alongside the black hole that was Monta Ellis and little frontcourt help to speak of he finished the season's last 50 games averaging 22/5/7 on 47/45/90 (broke the rookie record for 3's made in the process). We do in fact know that he can crush in any situation.

What lol? I know he's a great player, I'm not arguing that at all.

tredigs
05-01-2017, 08:14 PM
What lol? I know he's a great player, I'm not arguing that at all.

That's not my point. You're insinuating that he has always been in the great situation he is in now (though again - he's been better without KD - so...), so I'm showing you that he has crushed in all situations, not just the current iteration. Granted, he's also a better player now than he was then, so it's a combination of effects.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 10:08 PM
I'll give him playing well below his par in the past Finals (no need to rehash that talk), but to call him "bad" in their championship is such a ****ing joke. Dude averaged 26/5/6 on a 59% TS and only had one game that was a true stinker. He damn near single handedly lead them to an epic comeback victory in G3 by going on a rampage and posting 17 4th quarter points (an NBA RECORD that he did two times that series mind you), and in the Final 4 games of the series he posted 28/5/6 +2.3 steals on 49/48/86 en route to coming back from 2-1 and take the last 3 in a row. That's what you call an MVP performance. Glad Iggy got the FMVP because he was amazing in his role it makes the team that much tighter, but in no way should the guy who was literally left wide open by the opposing team in order to try to pin more pressure on Curry be the FMVP. Particularly when the guy he was guarding nearly won FMVP himself.

My point in him being bad is by his standards. It was an underperformance. When talks of Iggy being the FMVP is what it comes down to, then yes, it's bad. When Draymond Green should be MVP if the Warriors had won, then sorry, Curry just didn't play up to par. It was really his chance to take over the NBA but it didn't happen.

tredigs
05-01-2017, 10:14 PM
My point in him being bad is by his standards. It was an underperformance. When talks of Iggy being the FMVP is what it comes down to, then yes, it's bad. When Draymond Green should be MVP if the Warriors had won, then sorry, Curry just didn't play up to par. It was really his chance to take over the NBA but it didn't happen.

I acknowledged that he was sub par last season in the Final (though overall he had a great playoff run despite the injury), but his window is not over. He did at the very minimum co-take over the NBA for a season+, and he's playing his best ball of the year over the last couple months. Right now he looks just like he did in last years regular season, despite taking a couple less shots. He looks like an MVP. We'll see if it keeps up.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 10:19 PM
I don't really care about the regular season, tbh. We all know Warriors and Cavs are going to get there and the final series is what matters. If he doesn't show up, KD is there, too. But I'm more concerned about who plays the best. Until someone outplays LeBron in the Finals, I am sticking with him as the best player.

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 10:51 PM
That's not my point. You're insinuating that he has always been in the great situation he is in now (though again - he's been better without KD - so...), so I'm showing you that he has crushed in all situations, not just the current iteration. Granted, he's also a better player now than he was then, so it's a combination of effects.

This has literally nothing to do with his past. I'm talking about the now with him in his peak.

WaDe03
05-01-2017, 10:53 PM
I don't really care about the regular season, tbh. We all know Warriors and Cavs are going to get there and the final series is what matters. If he doesn't show up, KD is there, too. But I'm more concerned about who plays the best. Until someone outplays LeBron in the Finals, I am sticking with him as the best player.

It's going to be awhile before that happens.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-01-2017, 10:58 PM
He'll move up, but it doesn't do as much. He's already in my 17-23 range and will probably stay in that range. A few titles with the Warriors will move him to like 9-13 though.

IKnowHoops
05-02-2017, 03:33 AM
I remember seeing it before but couldn't remember everyone who was on it. Shaq and D-Rob had almost no range and they would seemingly crowd the paint for MJ and LeBron's drives. Outside of KD there is no consistent outside shot (although MJ and LeBron could certainly shoot it from there, they were streaky). Defensively obviously the length and athleticism would give any opposing team fits. And of course this analysis is discounting that as stacked as that team is, it would be so much better than every other team from a talent standpoint they'd win regardless of their fit concerns lol.


Dave has great range, like great range. His jumper was one of the best in the league for a big man. David would space the floor nicely for a big man. I can't believe you just said David had no range.

You guys really don't understand how amazing David Robinson was if you are saying these type of things man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck4KXAydlkE

Either retract that statement, or watch this and then retract the statement on your own accord.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-NRWNX7Z7Y

Seriously man, you can't be saying that kind of stuff. Robinson's midrange game was money. He was a better shooter than Duncan, and probably right there with KG. Its on film man, I watched his whole career. Saying that about David is 100% false. Lumping him in with Shaq is just beyond terrible. You could not of watched Drob having said something like that. Most of these guys talking about how David wasn't as good as I say are young, and did not get to watch David. The guys who were actually around and watching (Hawkeye, Mod with the Nate Robinson Pic, a few others acknowledge and know, that David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwan took turns outplaying each other, and there were many years where David was the better player period.

Seriously though, hearing you say this makes me KNOW, you have not watched enough David to be judging him. Please watch the two films...at least for being wrong about David and making comments that hurt his already hurt legacy. His peak is among the top 5 ever because he could perform at a level none could. Watch those and there is no way you will say David had almost no range. Seriously that is blasphemy.

IKnowHoops
05-02-2017, 03:51 AM
I'll give him playing well below his par in the past Finals (no need to rehash that talk), but to call him "bad" in their championship is such a ****ing joke. Dude averaged 26/5/6 on a 59% TS and only had one game that was a true stinker. He damn near single handedly lead them to an epic comeback victory in G3 by going on a rampage and posting 17 4th quarter points (an NBA RECORD that he did two times that series mind you), and in the Final 4 games of the series he posted 28/5/6 +2.3 steals on 49/48/86 en route to coming back from 2-1 and take the last 3 in a row. That's what you call an MVP performance. Glad Iggy got the FMVP because he was amazing in his role it makes the team that much tighter, but in no way should the guy who was literally left wide open by the opposing team in order to try to pin more pressure on Curry be the FMVP. Particularly when the guy he was guarding nearly won FMVP himself.


Goes both ways though. Iggy is wide open on offense, but he's got the hardest Defensive assignment ever, and he made Lebron as inefficient as you could possibly make him. If Lebron shoots a measly 46% for the series you guys loose. And the difference between Iggy and Steph on offense is probably equal to the size difference on defense. You can bet everything you own, that if Steph would of guarded Lebron all series, Lebron would of been MVP and the man with the Dub. Pun intended.

lol, please
05-03-2017, 12:50 AM
Goes both ways though. Iggy is wide open on offense, but he's got the hardest Defensive assignment ever, and he made Lebron as inefficient as you could possibly make him. If Lebron shoots a measly 46% for the series you guys loose. And the difference between Iggy and Steph on offense is probably equal to the size difference on defense. You can bet everything you own, that if Steph would of guarded Lebron all series, Lebron would of been MVP and the man with the Dub. Pun intended.

I love how you buy into the narrative that Curry is somehow a bad defender.

:laugh2:

Quinnsanity
05-03-2017, 01:24 AM
I love how you buy into the narrative that Curry is somehow a bad defender.

:laugh2:

This is something that has really grown to bother me recently. Stephen Curry is not an All Defense guy. Fine. There are like six or seven truly GREAT defensive guards in basketball and Curry is not one of them.

But this notion that he's bad like a lot of people say is utterly ridiculous. He's like a B/B+ on defense, but nobody notices because he's the best ****ing offensive player on the planet and people need a reason to **** on the skinny, 6'3'' baby face who plays on the juggernaut and succeeds in ways that are totally contrary to what anybody else has ever done. It's ridiculous. He knows where to be, he tries about as hard as you'd like someone with his offensive load to try (certainly harder than current LeBron, btw), and is fast enough to keep up with pretty much anyone. Yes, he is occasionally going to get rammed on a screen, and no, he can't switch with the rest of the GSW gang, and sure, he doesn't have shot-altering length, but come on people. This idea that Stephen Curry is a bad defender is ridiculous.

What bothers me most is that there are SO many guards we should be criticizing for their defense. Like Westbrook's defense is legitimately bad. It actively hurts his team. But Westbrook is a ****ing Jesus because he stayed on a small market team and averaged a triple double. We can't criticize him. Harden and Lillard battle all year, every year for the title of "who got caught napping on the most back cuts this season?" Isaiah might actually be the worst defensive guard in basketball. Kyrie gets more lost in pick-and-rolls than a white dude in a minivan rolling through Compton. Let's criticize the players who are actually bad! Why are we wasting time on Curry? This is utter nonsense. He's fine. Probably slightly better than fine. I get that people need to find flaws in the Warriors to help themselves sleep at night, but this isn't one of them. The statement is so bad I feel the need to go back after I've posted this and quote it just to emphasize that point.


Goes both ways though. Iggy is wide open on offense, but he's got the hardest Defensive assignment ever, and he made Lebron as inefficient as you could possibly make him. If Lebron shoots a measly 46% for the series you guys loose. And the difference between Iggy and Steph on offense is probably equal to the size difference on defense. You can bet everything you own, that if Steph would of guarded Lebron all series, Lebron would of been MVP and the man with the Dub. Pun intended.

I'm pulling my hair out. Even if Curry was a bad defender, which he is not, at his peak he just had arguably THE GREATEST OFFENSIVE SEASON EVER! Do you understand how massive the gap was between Curry and ANYONE last season? I'm not even sure, outside of the Warriors, that Iggy is still a net positive on offense. A very good passer with diminishing dribbling/driving skills who doesn't really shoot particularly well is... what... Evan Turner? Are we sure Evan Turner is a net positive on offense?

No **** Steph couldn't have guarded LeBron. He's six inches shorter than him. I would never ask Iggy to guard Shaq either.

ewing
05-03-2017, 06:32 AM
This boards obsession with rankings is annoying that said of course KD hurt his legacy. Basketball is a game where your best player can have a huge impact. If you win when your team needs you a ton and you show up that makes your legacy. KD put himself in a situation where his team doesn't even need him to win.

TheDish87
05-03-2017, 12:22 PM
a ring with this team does very little, if anything for his legacy. he is still a ***** for signing in GS.

valade16
05-03-2017, 12:30 PM
This is something that has really grown to bother me recently. Stephen Curry is not an All Defense guy. Fine. There are like six or seven truly GREAT defensive guards in basketball and Curry is not one of them.

But this notion that he's bad like a lot of people say is utterly ridiculous. He's like a B/B+ on defense, but nobody notices because he's the best ****ing offensive player on the planet and people need a reason to **** on the skinny, 6'3'' baby face who plays on the juggernaut and succeeds in ways that are totally contrary to what anybody else has ever done. It's ridiculous. He knows where to be, he tries about as hard as you'd like someone with his offensive load to try (certainly harder than current LeBron, btw), and is fast enough to keep up with pretty much anyone. Yes, he is occasionally going to get rammed on a screen, and no, he can't switch with the rest of the GSW gang, and sure, he doesn't have shot-altering length, but come on people. This idea that Stephen Curry is a bad defender is ridiculous.

What bothers me most is that there are SO many guards we should be criticizing for their defense. Like Westbrook's defense is legitimately bad. It actively hurts his team. But Westbrook is a ****ing Jesus because he stayed on a small market team and averaged a triple double. We can't criticize him. Harden and Lillard battle all year, every year for the title of "who got caught napping on the most back cuts this season?" Isaiah might actually be the worst defensive guard in basketball. Kyrie gets more lost in pick-and-rolls than a white dude in a minivan rolling through Compton. Let's criticize the players who are actually bad! Why are we wasting time on Curry? This is utter nonsense. He's fine. Probably slightly better than fine. I get that people need to find flaws in the Warriors to help themselves sleep at night, but this isn't one of them. The statement is so bad I feel the need to go back after I've posted this and quote it just to emphasize that point.

I'm pulling my hair out. Even if Curry was a bad defender, which he is not, at his peak he just had arguably THE GREATEST OFFENSIVE SEASON EVER! Do you understand how massive the gap was between Curry and ANYONE last season? I'm not even sure, outside of the Warriors, that Iggy is still a net positive on offense. A very good passer with diminishing dribbling/driving skills who doesn't really shoot particularly well is... what... Evan Turner? Are we sure Evan Turner is a net positive on offense?

No **** Steph couldn't have guarded LeBron. He's six inches shorter than him. I would never ask Iggy to guard Shaq either.

Curry isn't a "bad defender" because he plays on a stacked defensive team that makes it extremely easy for him to play defense guarding the worst back court player every night. That is at best a "not very good defender who can make a positive impact in a specific role". I hate the argument that is popping up now for guys such as Nowitzki to claim they weren't bad defenders. Nowitzki was a not bad defender because they put a defensive C next to him and tried to minimize scheme-wise the amount of defense on quality players he actually had to do.

There's a reason Cleveland pick and rolled to get Curry on Kyrie and then let Kyrie take him one on one in their series last year, and it's because Curry just couldn't stop Kyrie at all.

I give him credit, he can definitely make a positive impact while being given the least difficult assignment every night on GS. But if he were to have to actually put in the defensive effort or role that guys who are good defenders have to do, you'd see his defense get exposed.

None of that changes my ranking of him, he's an all-time great player who is the best shooter and one of the best most impactful offensive players ever. But it doesn't mean he is without weakness, and his weakness is definitely on ball defense, particularly against quick or athletic players.

hugepatsfan
05-03-2017, 12:54 PM
I don't think a ring does much for Durant's legacy in the situation he's in. And he himself acknowledges that he doesn't care where people rank him. He chose the easiest path to a title because just winning is important to him - he doesn't care how people perceive it.

IKnowHoops
05-03-2017, 02:50 PM
I love how you buy into the narrative that Curry is somehow a bad defender.

:laugh2:

You ever play dots? You would suck.

Does "Cant guard Lebron"="Bad defender"?

IKnowHoops
05-03-2017, 02:52 PM
This is something that has really grown to bother me recently. Stephen Curry is not an All Defense guy. Fine. There are like six or seven truly GREAT defensive guards in basketball and Curry is not one of them.

But this notion that he's bad like a lot of people say is utterly ridiculous. He's like a B/B+ on defense, but nobody notices because he's the best ****ing offensive player on the planet and people need a reason to **** on the skinny, 6'3'' baby face who plays on the juggernaut and succeeds in ways that are totally contrary to what anybody else has ever done. It's ridiculous. He knows where to be, he tries about as hard as you'd like someone with his offensive load to try (certainly harder than current LeBron, btw), and is fast enough to keep up with pretty much anyone. Yes, he is occasionally going to get rammed on a screen, and no, he can't switch with the rest of the GSW gang, and sure, he doesn't have shot-altering length, but come on people. This idea that Stephen Curry is a bad defender is ridiculous.

What bothers me most is that there are SO many guards we should be criticizing for their defense. Like Westbrook's defense is legitimately bad. It actively hurts his team. But Westbrook is a ****ing Jesus because he stayed on a small market team and averaged a triple double. We can't criticize him. Harden and Lillard battle all year, every year for the title of "who got caught napping on the most back cuts this season?" Isaiah might actually be the worst defensive guard in basketball. Kyrie gets more lost in pick-and-rolls than a white dude in a minivan rolling through Compton. Let's criticize the players who are actually bad! Why are we wasting time on Curry? This is utter nonsense. He's fine. Probably slightly better than fine. I get that people need to find flaws in the Warriors to help themselves sleep at night, but this isn't one of them. The statement is so bad I feel the need to go back after I've posted this and quote it just to emphasize that point.



I'm pulling my hair out. Even if Curry was a bad defender, which he is not, at his peak he just had arguably THE GREATEST OFFENSIVE SEASON EVER! Do you understand how massive the gap was between Curry and ANYONE last season? I'm not even sure, outside of the Warriors, that Iggy is still a net positive on offense. A very good passer with diminishing dribbling/driving skills who doesn't really shoot particularly well is... what... Evan Turner? Are we sure Evan Turner is a net positive on offense?

No **** Steph couldn't have guarded LeBron. He's six inches shorter than him. I would never ask Iggy to guard Shaq either.

LOLOLOL...and everything I said is still true. Thats why he won the MVP and Steph didn't. NEXT. Come on Jay Cutler, stay on point here. We are talking about there finals impact, not the entire season. Keep reaching, you may make a good point sooner or later, but not while you are having a reach episode. CONTEXT buddy, CONTEXT.

FOXHOUND
05-03-2017, 03:06 PM
It really depends on how things happened, but remember that people said the same stuff when LeBron went to Miami. When he actually won nobody gave a crap anymore of how that team came to be. If Durant plays great and wins one, two or however many rings with GS nobody will care about the circumstances anymore.

People can point to the 73-wins but the fact is that they lost in the Finals and beat a severely hampered Cleveland team the year before. If Cleveland was healthy in 2015, who is to say that GS wins that year either? As great as the Warriors regular season record has been the last three seasons, they still haven't proven that they are a dominant champion yet. If/when they do, Durant will be a big part of that.

It's not like Cleveland is a pushover, so nobody should act like they are. This would be akin to the Magic-Kareem-Worthy, etc Lakers beating the Bird, McHale, Johnson, etc. Celtics. This isn't the Shaq and Kobe Lakers beating Indiana, Philadelpia and the Nets for NBA titles.

Cleveland is the defending champs and they should be respected as such.

nastynice
05-03-2017, 03:13 PM
Curry isn't a "bad defender" because he plays on a stacked defensive team that makes it extremely easy for him to play defense guarding the worst back court player every night. That is at best a "not very good defender who can make a positive impact in a specific role". I hate the argument that is popping up now for guys such as Nowitzki to claim they weren't bad defenders. Nowitzki was a not bad defender because they put a defensive C next to him and tried to minimize scheme-wise the amount of defense on quality players he actually had to do.

There's a reason Cleveland pick and rolled to get Curry on Kyrie and then let Kyrie take him one on one in their series last year, and it's because Curry just couldn't stop Kyrie at all.

I give him credit, he can definitely make a positive impact while being given the least difficult assignment every night on GS. But if he were to have to actually put in the defensive effort or role that guys who are good defenders have to do, you'd see his defense get exposed.

None of that changes my ranking of him, he's an all-time great player who is the best shooter and one of the best most impactful offensive players ever. But it doesn't mean he is without weakness, and his weakness is definitely on ball defense, particularly against quick or athletic players.

The Cavs didn't attack curry because they were scoring, they attacked curry in order to affect him on the offensive end. Didn't Kyrie shoot in the 30 percents when guarded by curry?

nastynice
05-03-2017, 03:15 PM
It really depends on how things happened, but remember that people said the same stuff when LeBron went to Miami. When he actually won nobody gave a crap anymore of how that team came to be. If Durant plays great and wins one, two or however many rings with GS nobody will care about the circumstances anymore.

People can point to the 73-wins but the fact is that they lost in the Finals and beat a severely hampered Cleveland team the year before. If Cleveland was healthy in 2015, who is to say that GS wins that year either? As great as the Warriors regular season record has been the last three seasons, they still haven't proven that they are a dominant champion yet. If/when they do, Durant will be a big part of that.

It's not like Cleveland is a pushover, so nobody should act like they are. This would be akin to the Magic-Kareem-Worthy, etc Lakers beating the Bird, McHale, Johnson, etc. Celtics. This isn't the Shaq and Kobe Lakers beating Indiana, Philadelpia and the Nets for NBA titles.

Cleveland is the defending champs and they should be respected as such.

Agree on every point. People forget how stacked the Cavs are, this is Lebron's best team of his career. People also forget how when he formed the big 3, everyone said it would ruin his legacy

FOXHOUND
05-03-2017, 03:35 PM
Agree on every point. People forget how stacked the Cavs are, this is Lebron's best team of his career. People also forget how when he formed the big 3, everyone said it would ruin his legacy

I wouldn't say that, I think the Miami teams were better. This team does deserve respect though, they've earned it. It's possible they may be like year 4 Miami, who had a big drop in wins, cruised through the weak east and then suffered the most lopsided Finals loss since 1972 vs San Antonio. But if it is, let's see it first.

nastynice
05-03-2017, 03:55 PM
I wouldn't say that, I think the Miami teams were better. This team does deserve respect though, they've earned it. It's possible they may be like year 4 Miami, who had a big drop in wins, cruised through the weak east and then suffered the most lopsided Finals loss since 1972 vs San Antonio. But if it is, let's see it first.

You think so? I think this squad is better than any of his miami squads, much better constructed and well rounded

Quinnsanity
05-03-2017, 04:09 PM
Curry isn't a "bad defender" because he plays on a stacked defensive team that makes it extremely easy for him to play defense guarding the worst back court player every night. That is at best a "not very good defender who can make a positive impact in a specific role". I hate the argument that is popping up now for guys such as Nowitzki to claim they weren't bad defenders. Nowitzki was a not bad defender because they put a defensive C next to him and tried to minimize scheme-wise the amount of defense on quality players he actually had to do.

There's a reason Cleveland pick and rolled to get Curry on Kyrie and then let Kyrie take him one on one in their series last year, and it's because Curry just couldn't stop Kyrie at all.

I give him credit, he can definitely make a positive impact while being given the least difficult assignment every night on GS. But if he were to have to actually put in the defensive effort or role that guys who are good defenders have to do, you'd see his defense get exposed.

None of that changes my ranking of him, he's an all-time great player who is the best shooter and one of the best most impactful offensive players ever. But it doesn't mean he is without weakness, and his weakness is definitely on ball defense, particularly against quick or athletic players.

For starters, he doesn't always get the easiest assignment. At least in the first year of the Kerr tenure they made a big deal about letting him guard point guards every night. They've lessened their stance on that somewhat and tend to give him easier assignments now, but for good reason, he's the most important part of their offense. That's true of any guard close to his caliber. But he does a hell of a lot better with that smaller role than Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Isaiah and Kyrie do. Those guys are active negatives defensively even when matched up against lesser scorers. Curry is not. Nastynice spelled it out nicely: Cleveland's main purpose in attacking Curry was tiring him out for offense. He was also hurt. In the two regular season games this year Kyrie is 16-of-41. For his career he's shooting 39% in nine regular season games against Curry, most of which Curry has been healthy for. There's really no evidence to suggest that Kyrie would kill a healthy Curry in the PnR like he did in the Finals last year.

Dirk was a bad defender though. Any other opinion is totally revisionist. He was so good on offense that you could live with it, and he played in an era where he lack of mobility wasn't a huge problem (he'd get destroyed nowadays even if he were still at his peak), but yea, he was bad.


LOLOLOL...and everything I said is still true. Thats why he won the MVP and Steph didn't. NEXT. Come on Jay Cutler, stay on point here. We are talking about there finals impact, not the entire season. Keep reaching, you may make a good point sooner or later, but not while you are having a reach episode. CONTEXT buddy, CONTEXT.

And in the CONTEXT of the Finals, Curry being the best offensive player on Earth still meant a ton more than what Iggy did. The way Curry warps the court is so valuable that even if he doesn't take a single shot he's still impacting the game tremendously, it opens up so much for his teammates. He doesn't have to put up his usual gaudy stats to impact the game. Iguodala's defense, while very good, does not have, nor has it ever had, remotely that level of impact. Giving that MVP to Iguodala would've been like giving Michael Cooper the MVP in a Finals against Boston where Magic didn't happen to put up stats. Coop is important, but you can't measure the impact Magic has just by walking onto the court. Curry is that caliber of offensive player.

Hawkeye15
05-03-2017, 04:14 PM
It really depends on how things happened, but remember that people said the same stuff when LeBron went to Miami. When he actually won nobody gave a crap anymore of how that team came to be. If Durant plays great and wins one, two or however many rings with GS nobody will care about the circumstances anymore.

People can point to the 73-wins but the fact is that they lost in the Finals and beat a severely hampered Cleveland team the year before. If Cleveland was healthy in 2015, who is to say that GS wins that year either? As great as the Warriors regular season record has been the last three seasons, they still haven't proven that they are a dominant champion yet. If/when they do, Durant will be a big part of that.

It's not like Cleveland is a pushover, so nobody should act like they are. This would be akin to the Magic-Kareem-Worthy, etc Lakers beating the Bird, McHale, Johnson, etc. Celtics. This isn't the Shaq and Kobe Lakers beating Indiana, Philadelpia and the Nets for NBA titles.

Cleveland is the defending champs and they should be respected as such.

This is even different than LeBron joining Wade/Bosh in Miami. That has been talked about at length. GS doesn't even need him to win a chip, and win over 70 games. Doesn't even matter if he shows up or not.

But Durant doesn't care about his legacy, according to his words. He is sacrificing how he will be perceived for the best chance at winning. Unless he needs to carry an injured, or depleted roster to a chip, it won't mean squat for his legacy that he joined a wrecking machine for a ride along.

mngopher35
05-03-2017, 04:26 PM
It really depends on how things happened, but remember that people said the same stuff when LeBron went to Miami. When he actually won nobody gave a crap anymore of how that team came to be. If Durant plays great and wins one, two or however many rings with GS nobody will care about the circumstances anymore.

People can point to the 73-wins but the fact is that they lost in the Finals and beat a severely hampered Cleveland team the year before. If Cleveland was healthy in 2015, who is to say that GS wins that year either? As great as the Warriors regular season record has been the last three seasons, they still haven't proven that they are a dominant champion yet. If/when they do, Durant will be a big part of that.

It's not like Cleveland is a pushover, so nobody should act like they are. This would be akin to the Magic-Kareem-Worthy, etc Lakers beating the Bird, McHale, Johnson, etc. Celtics. This isn't the Shaq and Kobe Lakers beating Indiana, Philadelpia and the Nets for NBA titles.

Cleveland is the defending champs and they should be respected as such.

Well we covered the differences in this team compared to heat and others in the past earlier so I don't think we need to rehash that but there are obvious differences like odds etc to add the context so I will kinda leave the obvious differences behind and assume we have moved past that and this about the idea of what COULD happen and not to rule anything out? If so I agree, but if not we will need to revisit that earlier discussion I guess.

When it comes to what could happen and if we should write off Durant right now I agree the answer is no way. We need to wait and see what happens. The difference here and why so many don't really see that path as realistic is due to those earlier differences which allowed Lebron's greatness to shine through and be obvious. Yes you can overcome a weak choice by being the clear cut best player on the team, clearly carrying the team, best player in the league, and having epic performances like game 6 at Boston while dealing with team injuries etc. Even after multiple titles while including much of the above and being a better player beforehand there was still some discussion if Lebron was top 10 yet (although most had him sneaking in around Kobe level it was borderline). This was a much weaker choice and it does not appear this team struggles at all without him like the heat without James either remember. Add in that his playoff performances without insane help (individually not just winning) and it gets worse for him.

So to me if Durant isn't all of those things then this comparison becomes invalid moving forward (and already doesn't really match up anyways). We have already seen this team win a title without him, go on a late season run without him, win playoff games without him etc. Even if this team does have an injury to a main guy like Miami they still have 2 stars next to him, not just one (you could argue without Durant they still remain favorites even, at the very least its a toss up for them). To me this is why it is very unlikely for Durant to make that top tier of players which I thought he had an outside shot at in OKC, although again we definitely need to see how it plays out. Even if he does become that guy and get credit then like I said I see it hurting Curry's legacy because he then won't have that history/influence/impact either. There is a reason people don't prop up Pippen or Wade in the same way as MJ and Lebron and these guys are likely to get that type of treatment with how loaded this team is imo, there won't be one clear guy carrying them. It's why they are currently sitting with like a 67% chance to win it all and the next highest is Cle with roughly half those odds (despite the easier conference). People can just see how stacked this team is and they are supposed to win pretty handily. It would take a lot more to create similar types of situations for Durant's individual greatness to show given that, which is fine he knew that going in I feel.

So while we agree it is possible that it happens and he will deserve major credit for carrying his team, it's also possible Washington wins the title at the moment. I just see the odds of Durant's greatness shining through in these circumstances to that same extent being very poor in the same way.

WaDe03
05-03-2017, 06:40 PM
I'll never forget KD and the Thunder smacking the 67 win Spurs and then choking a 3-1 lead against the Warriors so he could join them last summer.

FlashBolt
05-04-2017, 08:53 PM
Agree on every point. People forget how stacked the Cavs are, this is Lebron's best team of his career. People also forget how when he formed the big 3, everyone said it would ruin his legacy

Here's why your comparison is wrong:

1) When LeBron created his big three, other teams already began creating one as well. It wasn't like they were THAT much better than every other team. And if they were, it was because of LeBron.
2) LeBron deserves much of the championship credit because Bosh+Wade generally were past their prime after the 1st season. Hell, Bosh wasn't much of the contributor people make it seem he was.
3) That Heat team was great. This Warriors team is historic. They had already won a championship/made two NBA Finals/had a 2x MVP/posted the greatest regular season record ever without Durant. And this Warriors team are all at their prime.

It's pretty easy to see that while they both technically "went" to a better team, LeBron created the greatness in Miami. Durant is simply joining one that is already great.

WaDe03
05-04-2017, 09:31 PM
Here's why your comparison is wrong:

1) When LeBron created his big three, other teams already began creating one as well. It wasn't like they were THAT much better than every other team. And if they were, it was because of LeBron.
2) LeBron deserves much of the championship credit because Bosh+Wade generally were past their prime after the 1st season. Hell, Bosh wasn't much of the contributor people make it seem he was.
3) That Heat team was great. This Warriors team is historic. They had already won a championship/made two NBA Finals/had a 2x MVP/posted the greatest regular season record ever without Durant. And this Warriors team are all at their prime.

It's pretty easy to see that while they both technically "went" to a better team, LeBron created the greatness in Miami. Durant is simply joining one that is already great.

The big 3 created the greatness in Miami, not just LeBron. Wade and Bosh were both huge for them regardless of age. Those teams were also historic.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 12:00 AM
You think so? I think this squad is better than any of his miami squads, much better constructed and well rounded

Yeah, just cause of Bosh and the defensive side of the ball. Bosh always got a raw deal for how good he was and being a stretch 5 while being the best PnR defending big in the NBA was insanely valuable. This team is really well constructed too, and I think Kyrie is the ideal offensive partner for LeBron, but the defensive value that Wade and Bosh had over Irving and Love is the difference for me. That Miami team was also loaded with shooters just like Cleveland. One of those 60-win Miami teams set a record for being the first team with five 40% 3 point shooters on one team.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 12:09 AM
This is even different than LeBron joining Wade/Bosh in Miami. That has been talked about at length. GS doesn't even need him to win a chip, and win over 70 games. Doesn't even matter if he shows up or not.

But Durant doesn't care about his legacy, according to his words. He is sacrificing how he will be perceived for the best chance at winning. Unless he needs to carry an injured, or depleted roster to a chip, it won't mean squat for his legacy that he joined a wrecking machine for a ride along.

I don't disagree, but that Miami team also only won two rings. If Durant reels off 4-5 rings while he's in Golden State, I don't think people are going to care just like they didn't care for LeBron. It's a footnote on his career for sure but I don't think it will define it.

Of course, like I started my post with, it really depends on how everything plays out. Still, the obsession with Finals MVP started after Jordan. People love bringing up Kobe not winning Finals MVP to Shaq for his first three. When people talk about Bird being great, you rarely hear people talk about Cedric Maxwell winning Finals MVP. You rarely hear about how Kareem has 3 Finals MVPs on 6 rings. You rarely hear that Magic has 2 on 5.

valade16
05-05-2017, 12:11 AM
Yeah, just cause of Bosh and the defensive side of the ball. Bosh always got a raw deal for how good he was and being a stretch 5 while being the best PnR defending big in the NBA was insanely valuable. This team is really well constructed too, and I think Kyrie is the ideal offensive partner for LeBron, but the defensive value that Wade and Bosh had over Irving and Love is the difference for me. That Miami team was also loaded with shooters just like Cleveland. One of those 60-win Miami teams set a record for being the first team with five 40% 3 point shooters on one team.

I had to look to see and wow.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2013.html

Bron, Chalmers, Allen, Miller and Battier all over 40%.

What's crazy is the Warriors were still 1st in 3PT% that season (Miami was 2nd).

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 12:18 AM
Well we covered the differences in this team compared to heat and others in the past earlier so I don't think we need to rehash that but there are obvious differences like odds etc to add the context so I will kinda leave the obvious differences behind and assume we have moved past that and this about the idea of what COULD happen and not to rule anything out? If so I agree, but if not we will need to revisit that earlier discussion I guess.

When it comes to what could happen and if we should write off Durant right now I agree the answer is no way. We need to wait and see what happens. The difference here and why so many don't really see that path as realistic is due to those earlier differences which allowed Lebron's greatness to shine through and be obvious. Yes you can overcome a weak choice by being the clear cut best player on the team, clearly carrying the team, best player in the league, and having epic performances like game 6 at Boston while dealing with team injuries etc. Even after multiple titles while including much of the above and being a better player beforehand there was still some discussion if Lebron was top 10 yet (although most had him sneaking in around Kobe level it was borderline). This was a much weaker choice and it does not appear this team struggles at all without him like the heat without James either remember. Add in that his playoff performances without insane help (individually not just winning) and it gets worse for him.

So to me if Durant isn't all of those things then this comparison becomes invalid moving forward (and already doesn't really match up anyways). We have already seen this team win a title without him, go on a late season run without him, win playoff games without him etc. Even if this team does have an injury to a main guy like Miami they still have 2 stars next to him, not just one (you could argue without Durant they still remain favorites even, at the very least its a toss up for them). To me this is why it is very unlikely for Durant to make that top tier of players which I thought he had an outside shot at in OKC, although again we definitely need to see how it plays out. Even if he does become that guy and get credit then like I said I see it hurting Curry's legacy because he then won't have that history/influence/impact either. There is a reason people don't prop up Pippen or Wade in the same way as MJ and Lebron and these guys are likely to get that type of treatment with how loaded this team is imo, there won't be one clear guy carrying them. It's why they are currently sitting with like a 67% chance to win it all and the next highest is Cle with roughly half those odds (despite the easier conference). People can just see how stacked this team is and they are supposed to win pretty handily. It would take a lot more to create similar types of situations for Durant's individual greatness to show given that, which is fine he knew that going in I feel.

So while we agree it is possible that it happens and he will deserve major credit for carrying his team, it's also possible Washington wins the title at the moment. I just see the odds of Durant's greatness shining through in these circumstances to that same extent being very poor in the same way.

More good points too, and more that I don't disagree with.

Here's a question though - What would be better for Durant's career in hypothetical land? If he stayed in OKC and never won a ring or going to GS and winning 4-5 championships? Will it affect his ability to ever have a realistic chance of becoming the GOAT? Yeah, maybe. That same thought should apply for LeBron though, and I think it does for some among other reasons. LeBron even left his 4 straight Finals team to hop onto another loaded young team again and most people still don't care.

And let's be fair, comparing Durant or Wade to Pippen, as much as I love the guy, is kinda crazy. I mean, the only reason why Wade doesn't have two Finals MVPs and another ring is because LeBron choked in 2011, right? Who is to say that Durant doesn't win 2-3 of those 4-5 Finals MVPs? Even if he doesn't, to act like he's a bystander or not on the same level as Curry is pretty disingenuous IMO.

He's at worst a top 4 player in the NBA, shout out to Kawhi, and as LeBron ages out he's going to stay in that top 3 with Curry and Kawhi until someone else wants to join the party. If Durant is sitting there at the end of the day with 4-5 championships and well over 30,000 points like he's on his way to, I don't think many people are going to care about that one decision he made.

ewing
05-05-2017, 12:19 AM
I don't disagree, but that Miami team also only won two rings. If Durant reels off 4-5 rings while he's in Golden State, I don't think people are going to care just like they didn't care for LeBron. It's a footnote on his career for sure but I don't think it will define it.

Of course, like I started my post with, it really depends on how everything plays out. Still, the obsession with Finals MVP started after Jordan. People love bringing up Kobe not winning Finals MVP to Shaq for his first three. When people talk about Bird being great, you rarely hear people talk about Cedric Maxwell winning Finals MVP. You rarely hear about how Kareem has 3 Finals MVPs on 6 rings. You rarely hear that Magic has 2 on 5.

good post

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 12:30 AM
Here's why your comparison is wrong:

1) When LeBron created his big three, other teams already began creating one as well. It wasn't like they were THAT much better than every other team. And if they were, it was because of LeBron.
2) LeBron deserves much of the championship credit because Bosh+Wade generally were past their prime after the 1st season. Hell, Bosh wasn't much of the contributor people make it seem he was.
3) That Heat team was great. This Warriors team is historic. They had already won a championship/made two NBA Finals/had a 2x MVP/posted the greatest regular season record ever without Durant. And this Warriors team are all at their prime.

It's pretty easy to see that while they both technically "went" to a better team, LeBron created the greatness in Miami. Durant is simply joining one that is already great.

This is pretty disingenuous. What other teams were creating super teams? Are you referring to Boston, when three old stars who led their teams to bottom 10 records in the NBA the previous year got together? Are you referring to the Lakers, with Kobe, Pau and Lamar Odom?

How was that Miami team not historic? Because they underachieved? When they got together the world exploded and everyone thought they were going to go on a 90's Bulls type run. The only reason they didn't 3peat is because LeBron choked vs Dallas. The only teams in NBA history to 3peat are Mikan's Lakers, Russell's Celtics (heh heh, 3peat...), Jordan and Pippen's Bulls x2 and Shaq and Kobe's Lakers.

That Miami team was 100% historic, they just didn't deliver on the goods. Kind of how that 73-win Warriors didn't deliver on the goods and that's the more important fact of their season. If the Warriors were defending champs and literally the best team of all time talk after back to back titles, 73-wins and 67-wins? Completely different talk. The fact that they lost and beat a half dead Cavs team in 2015 is a very important detail, I think.

In my book, if we're talking about who the best team in the NBA the past two years has been, it's Cleveland. Their title last year holds way more weight than Golden State's when Cleveland was so depleted. They beat them at 73-wins and down 3-1, how hard is it really to make a case that a healthy Cavs team wins in 2015?

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 12:39 AM
More good points too, and more that I don't disagree with.

Here's a question though - What would be better for Durant's career in hypothetical land? If he stayed in OKC and never won a ring or going to GS and winning 4-5 championships? Will it affect his ability to ever have a realistic chance of becoming the GOAT? Yeah, maybe. That same thought should apply for LeBron though, and I think it does for some among other reasons. LeBron even left his 4 straight Finals team to hop onto another loaded young team again and most people still don't care.


What individual accolades and impact he has/gets in each situation makes a difference but he probably is a bit higher with success in GS. My point though is that getting to that top 15 or above range seems unrealistic to me now, it would take alot of the stuff I mention in my last post for him to be in that range for me now.

Lebron has certainly had a lot of help since leaving Cleveland but again he has always been on teams similar to others top ones in the league in overall talent/depth/fit/coaching not absurdly ahead of everyone. Before he left Cleveland there was a lot of argument about which situation was better though and what he should do etc. so it again isn't even close to the situation for Durant. Nothing really is imo.


And let's be fair, comparing Durant or Wade to Pippen, as much as I love the guy, is kinda crazy. I mean, the only reason why Wade doesn't have two Finals MVPs and another ring is because LeBron choked in 2011, right? Who is to say that Durant doesn't win 2-3 of those 4-5 Finals MVPs? Even if he doesn't, to act like he's a bystander or not on the same level as Curry is pretty disingenuous IMO.

He's at worst a top 4 player in the NBA, shout out to Kawhi, and as LeBron ages out he's going to stay in that top 3 with Curry and Kawhi until someone else wants to join the party. If Durant is sitting there at the end of the day with 4-5 championships and well over 30,000 points like he's on his way to, I don't think many people are going to care about that one decision he made.

I am not saying he is a bystander to Curry but they also have Green/Klay too. I mean right now Curry/Green are killing it, he hasn't done a ton due to coming back and they are still winning like end of season without him (taped tonights game don't ruin this for me!). He can play worse than Wade did next to Lebron or Scottie next to Jordan and they should still win it all. It isn't that I think Curry is that much better than him etc. it's just that I don't think any individual on that team will really need to rise above the occasion because they just outmatch everyone. They will have some moments against Cleveland but whenever they need to turn it up I expect them to pull away because they really really should with this much talent.

Durant since 2014 has not been a very good playoff performer, in fact his advanced numbers are kinda poor. It just seems hard for me to give him credit individually for what this team accomplishes given the situation and I think he got that coming in. I just kinda feel in the long run his legacy will be behind what I think it could have been if he had won in OKC or as a needed piece somewhere else (which really just takes a good/very good performance last year in the playoffs probably with that squad he had). I don't see any reason to give extra credit to these championships given the situation at all really.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 12:45 AM
I had to look to see and wow.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2013.html

Bron, Chalmers, Allen, Miller and Battier all over 40%.

What's crazy is the Warriors were still 1st in 3PT% that season (Miami was 2nd).

Peak those NBA Finals series' and you may be more surprised.

2013 Heat - .432 from 3, 64 3PTM in 7 games, Miller .611 (11-18), Allen .545 (12-22), Battier .444 (12-27) and Chalmers .406 (13-32). LeBron cooled off, .353 (12-34), but other guys picked up the slack on sniping. The year before wasn't much different.

2012 Heat - .429 from 3, 42 3PTM in 5 games, Miller .636 (7-11), Battier .577 (15-26). Chalmers was cooled a bit at .348 (8-23) and LeBron was really chill from 3 at .188 (3-16) but Battier came to wreck house.

Can we just take a second to appreciate the incredible sniping that Shane Battier and Mike Miller brought to those Heat teams? My freaking god lol. You also had games over both of those Finals where Miller, Battier, Allen and Chalmers all dropped over 20 points just raining shots.

The supporting cast of those Heat teams never got their due, IMO. They were pretty freaking great from top to bottom.

ewing
05-05-2017, 12:48 AM
wait, people downgraded guys on LeBron's supporting caste?

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 01:01 AM
What individual accolades and impact he has/gets in each situation makes a difference but he probably is a bit higher with success in GS. My point though is that getting to that top 15 or above range seems unrealistic to me now, it would take alot of the stuff I mention in my last post for him to be in that range for me now.

Top 15!? Eh, it's early in the game for him still but that seems pretty harsh. If Durant has 4-5 rings, over 30,000 points an MVP, however many Finals MVPs and a boat load of All-NBA teams you're not gonna put him top 10? I don't know man.


Lebron has certainly had a lot of help since leaving Cleveland but again he has always been on teams similar to others top ones in the league in overall talent/depth/fit/coaching not absurdly ahead of everyone. Before he left Cleveland there was a lot of argument about which situation was better though and what he should do etc. so it again isn't even close to the situation for Durant. Nothing really is imo.

I don't think that's true with Miami. You can say OKC before they traded Harden, sure, but Harden wasn't Harden then. They legit had 2 top 5 players and Bosh was top 10-15 and no one else could say that. Cleveland less because Kyrie wasn't as established being so young but Love was coming off 2nd Team All-NBA. Still, OKC and Clippers were also stacked sure. Nobody knew GS was what they were until that season actually happened. In fact, plenty of people were laughing at GS for not trading Klay and Lee for Love.


I am not saying he is a bystander to Curry but they also have Green/Klay too. I mean right now Curry/Green are killing it, he hasn't done a ton due to coming back and they are still winning like end of season without him (taped tonights game don't ruin this for me!). He can play worse than Wade did next to Lebron or Scottie next to Jordan and they should still win it all. It isn't that I think Curry is that much better than him etc. it's just that I don't think any individual on that team will really need to rise above the occasion because they just outmatch everyone. They will have some moments against Cleveland but whenever they need to turn it up I expect them to pull away because they really really should with this much talent.

Well when you look at it, they're in kind of the same boat as Cleveland out east. Really, both teams are just cruising to the Finals and last year proved that you shouldn't underestimate Cleveland based on regular season record or anything. Cleveland is built for 1 goal and that is to beat GS. Thompson at C has struggled and playing guys like Love or Frye at C causes issues vs most teams. But they're not worried about most teams, especially east teams, because they just talent thwamp them in the playoffs.

I do get that point though, and I agree it really depends on how it all works out. But so much of that stuff in history is narrative talk. When people talk about Kobe and Magic, it mostly sounds like Kobe was more eh while Magic was this superhuman team leader. But when you look at reality? Both have 5 rings and both have 2 Finals MVPs. I do think Durant needs to win a **** load of rings to justify going to Golden State, but as long as he does and wins 2 or more of those Finals MVPs? He should be pretty safe from any of that talk, IMO.


Durant since 2014 has not been a very good playoff performer, in fact his advanced numbers are kinda poor. It just seems hard for me to give him credit individually for what this team accomplishes given the situation and I think he got that coming in. I just kinda feel in the long run his legacy will be behind what I think it could have been if he had won in OKC or as a needed piece somewhere else (which really just takes a good/very good performance last year in the playoffs probably with that squad he had). I don't see any reason to give extra credit to these championships given the situation at all really.

That's a good point, and we really need to see. But to my previous point, Golden State losing to Cleveland cost them credibility. They needed that win to not only stamp their resume as legit arguably the best team of all time, but to also validate their title in 2015 when Cleveland was half dead. Losing to Cleveland, and especially as they did, gives their 2015 title much less credibility, in my eyes. So now, GS and Durant are married. If they do beat Cleveland this year, and I think they will, how can you say that he isn't the reason for them to get over that hump? The thing is we can't say, it's really not fair to assume that he isn't a big part when last year ended the way it did.

lol, please
05-05-2017, 01:15 AM
This is pretty disingenuous. What other teams were creating super teams? Are you referring to Boston, when three old stars who led their teams to bottom 10 records in the NBA the previous year got together? Are you referring to the Lakers, with Kobe, Pau and Lamar Odom?

How was that Miami team not historic? Because they underachieved? When they got together the world exploded and everyone thought they were going to go on a 90's Bulls type run. The only reason they didn't 3peat is because LeBron choked vs Dallas. The only teams in NBA history to 3peat are Mikan's Lakers, Russell's Celtics (heh heh, 3peat...), Jordan and Pippen's Bulls x2 and Shaq and Kobe's Lakers.

That Miami team was 100% historic, they just didn't deliver on the goods. Kind of how that 73-win Warriors didn't deliver on the goods and that's the more important fact of their season. If the Warriors were defending champs and literally the best team of all time talk after back to back titles, 73-wins and 67-wins? Completely different talk. The fact that they lost and beat a half dead Cavs team in 2015 is a very important detail, I think.

In my book, if we're talking about who the best team in the NBA the past two years has been, it's Cleveland. Their title last year holds way more weight than Golden State's when Cleveland was so depleted. They beat them at 73-wins and down 3-1, how hard is it really to make a case that a healthy Cavs team wins in 2015?

Was on the boat with everything you said here up until this. Completely false. The best team doesn't always win the title.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 01:27 AM
Was on the boat with everything you said here up until this. Completely false. The best team doesn't always win the title.

I'm of the mind that it don't mean a thing if you ain't got that ring. Golden State should have been the best team of the past two years and right now we should be talking about whether or not they are better than either of the 90's 3peat Bulls if they win this year, and with their age of they can have a 90's Bulls type run where they 6 rings in 8 years. But they lost and they beat a Cavs team that had no Irving or Love. Those details are very important, for me.

But now they have Durant, so who knows? Maybe they win 5 rings in the next 6 years and in total still have that 6 in 8 number, I don't know. Who knows. I remember when we all thought Miami was going to go on a run like that. We thought those young boys in OKC would be living in the Finals to battle Miami for immortality. Neither played out how it looked like it was gong to, especially for OKC lol.

valade16
05-05-2017, 01:39 AM
The question is if Durant is top 10 which top 10 player gets kicked off the list? You already have 11 guys generally in the debate:

MJ
Kareem
LeBron
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe

Which one of those guys could he realistically pass? Short of him winning the majority of Finals MVPs, clearly taking the team from Curry or having several other members get hurt or leave forcing him to carry the Warriors, I can't see him passing any of those guys to make it to the top 10.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 01:39 AM
Top 15!? Eh, it's early in the game for him still but that seems pretty harsh. If Durant has 4-5 rings, over 30,000 points an MVP, however many Finals MVPs and a boat load of All-NBA teams you're not gonna put him top 10? I don't know man.

If those awards come just from the situation, again no. If what I mentioned in the longer post happens and he is pushed to the limit and his greatness shines through etc due to injuries to teammates or whatever then sure. If it is a situation where they are constantly this far ahead of everyone else then no I don't think it is very impressive.

To put it into something we have seen, despite the injuries/epic Boston game I mentioned and him being the clear best player carrying the team + great play throughout etc I see the finals run for Lebron being mocked more than being praised as something truly separating him from other greats. So even if Durant has a couple awards to go with rings if it is due to constantly being in this situation and not his own individual dominance then it would be a pretty easy call tbh because the context matters and it was expected.




I don't think that's true with Miami. You can say OKC before they traded Harden, sure, but Harden wasn't Harden then. They legit had 2 top 5 players and Bosh was top 10-15 and no one else could say that. Cleveland less because Kyrie wasn't as established being so young but Love was coming off 2nd Team All-NBA. Still, OKC and Clippers were also stacked sure. Nobody knew GS was what they were until that season actually happened. In fact, plenty of people were laughing at GS for not trading Klay and Lee for Love.

I think they had more top heavy talent initially but there were a lot of teams over that span with something at least close (and that first year had no depth, it was the following years when they added better pieces around than starting Bibby/Anthony I think it was). Even if we look at who won just before they teamed up Kobe(psd top 2 player)/Gasol(psd top 10)/Bynum(psd #2 center) plus role players (fisher/Artest) and Phil. Boston had the big 3 aging and Rondo still. Then Westy/Harden/Durant/Ibaka were favored headed into the finals even. Many on here have called the 14 Spurs the best version with Duncan on the team. You can argue the Heat had more than these teams but in the end they weren't like the best/favorite team already then adding a top 3 or so player to further distance themselves, it was right in line with other top teams. It wasn't even close to that.




Well when you look at it, they're in kind of the same boat as Cleveland out east. Really, both teams are just cruising to the Finals and last year proved that you shouldn't underestimate Cleveland based on regular season record or anything. Cleveland is built for 1 goal and that is to beat GS. Thompson at C has struggled and playing guys like Love or Frye at C causes issues vs most teams. But they're not worried about most teams, especially east teams, because they just talent thwamp them in the playoffs.

I do get that point though, and I agree it really depends on how it all works out. But so much of that stuff in history is narrative talk. When people talk about Kobe and Magic, it mostly sounds like Kobe was more eh while Magic was this superhuman team leader. But when you look at reality? Both have 5 rings and both have 2 Finals MVPs. I do think Durant needs to win a **** load of rings to justify going to Golden State, but as long as he does and wins 2 or more of those Finals MVPs? He should be pretty safe from any of that talk, IMO.

The difference is GS can cruise without Durant even playing, Cle cruises because Lebron is dominating. That's the entire point and why it just doesn't seem like there is any way to get major credit. It's not just that this team is loaded enough to win, it's that they are loaded enough to win without him even playing. Lebron's teams haven't been in that realm at all, he has been the clear cut driving force (which when I talk impact below is huge to me).

I will start by saying I don't just look at FMVP and say ok yep he won that guy gets the credit. For example Curry was actually the best player in the finals a couple years back he just wasn't as good as expected and Iggy got the attention for guarding Bron and taking those open looks (generally off Curry attention). For Kobe it is usually brought up when people say 5 rings as if that means something in comparison to others greats, pointing out Shaq as the driving force is important context. So to me it always comes down to the actual impact/context which we agree makes it impossible to say for sure ahead of time but this situation doesn't seem to have the Warriors needing Durant like Lakers did Kobe to win their titles. That's going to be a big difference to me whether they each get 2 FMVP or Durant has more even, I am guessing they won't be as impressive individually speaking he just was the best guy for one series on a loaded team (like this year does FMVP make him better/more important than Curry or even Green who have had bigger impact throughout the year?).





That's a good point, and we really need to see. But to my previous point, Golden State losing to Cleveland cost them credibility. They needed that win to not only stamp their resume as legit arguably the best team of all time, but to also validate their title in 2015 when Cleveland was half dead. Losing to Cleveland, and especially as they did, gives their 2015 title much less credibility, in my eyes. So now, GS and Durant are married. If they do beat Cleveland this year, and I think they will, how can you say that he isn't the reason for them to get over that hump? The thing is we can't say, it's really not fair to assume that he isn't a big part when last year ended the way it did.

Last year Curry was hurt/injuredaffecting his play, Draymond got suspended, Bogut got injured last couple games, and they blew a 3-1 lead and lost the final game on a late shot (aka it was still extremely close despite the situation). All of this after using extra energy in the RS as a team to chase a wins record. Moving forward they are hitting their peak/improving and Lebron should be on the downfall as well. I don't see this as a situation where Durant is the clear difference to put them on top, I see a team that was headed towards running the league already adding a top player as further separation they likely didn't need but have now anyways.

Like sure he is the difference/reason it is such a big gap but not the main reason they are simply the favorite (I think before FA those came out and they were on top but not 100%). That could probably be argued either way though because despite the things I mention Cle did win and Lebron/Kyrie/cle role players deserve major credit too.

nastynice
05-05-2017, 01:41 AM
Here's why your comparison is wrong:

1) When LeBron created his big three, other teams already began creating one as well. It wasn't like they were THAT much better than every other team. And if they were, it was because of LeBron.
2) LeBron deserves much of the championship credit because Bosh+Wade generally were past their prime after the 1st season. Hell, Bosh wasn't much of the contributor people make it seem he was.
3) That Heat team was great. This Warriors team is historic. They had already won a championship/made two NBA Finals/had a 2x MVP/posted the greatest regular season record ever without Durant. And this Warriors team are all at their prime.

It's pretty easy to see that while they both technically "went" to a better team, LeBron created the greatness in Miami. Durant is simply joining one that is already great.

No, Durant is here because what we were in the reg season last year is what we're trying to become in the playoffs moving forward. He is extremely instrumental to this team, especially as the grind gets harder with each round.

The comparison is fine, nothing you said negates anything I've said. What they did was different, but no matter how you slice it, Durant followed Lebron's lead. Difference being we didn't need a bunch of guys to get together and take pay cuts to play together and create an 8 chip team. Our FO has made monster move after monster move, and last summer we blew everybody else's pitch out of the water because we positioned ourselves to add an MVP caliber player to another MVP + 2 all stars. Let's be real, that's why everyone's mad

nastynice
05-05-2017, 01:47 AM
Yeah, just cause of Bosh and the defensive side of the ball. Bosh always got a raw deal for how good he was and being a stretch 5 while being the best PnR defending big in the NBA was insanely valuable. This team is really well constructed too, and I think Kyrie is the ideal offensive partner for LeBron, but the defensive value that Wade and Bosh had over Irving and Love is the difference for me. That Miami team was also loaded with shooters just like Cleveland. One of those 60-win Miami teams set a record for being the first team with five 40% 3 point shooters on one team.

I think these Cavs are better built, but oh damn, I remember that defense, it was straight filthy.

KingPosey
05-05-2017, 02:12 AM
Gut instinct in terms of their peak ability I'd have Curry, KD, CP3, Wade. However once I factor in achievement and their ability to either step their game up in big moments I think Curry, Wade, KD, CP3.

Regardless, I think KD, CP3 and Wade are so close in terms of peak ability that it's a matter of preference.
Curry may somehow end up being the best of thEm but we definitely need to wait for him have and sustain his actual "peak". Not just had one AMAZING season and one very good one. He definitely hasn't done enough long enough to be ahead of any of these guys in terms of their peaks, unless you mean literally one season.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 02:12 AM
The question is if Durant is top 10 which top 10 player gets kicked off the list? You already have 11 guys generally in the debate:

MJ
Kareem
LeBron
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe

Which one of those guys could he realistically pass? Short of him winning the majority of Finals MVPs, clearly taking the team from Curry or having several other members get hurt or leave forcing him to carry the Warriors, I can't see him passing any of those guys to make it to the top 10.

Well, it's really early for Durant so it really depends on a ton of variables that we're gonna have to see. Durant currently, barring any more major injuries, is on a pace that gives him a pretty legit chance to end up top 3 in points all time. And by top 3 I mean with LeBron and Kareem, cause LeBron is gonna pass Kareem barring a major injury and we all know he's not human. If he's that high with 4-5 rings and 10+ All-NBA selections, etc. I don't care what he did in free agency, somebody is getting the hell out of that top 10 for him lol.

It also depends on that persons criteria, because as any sport all time rankings are extremely difficult and everyone has their thing with it.

LOb0
05-05-2017, 02:47 AM
Winning a title with this team means nothing to me in terms of his all time rank.

lol, please
05-05-2017, 03:03 AM
Winning a title with this team means nothing to me in terms of his all time rank.

So performing well in the playoffs (as Flashbolt put it, more important than the regular season) and winning rings doesn't do anything for a players legacy?

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 03:04 AM
So in the all time thing we are also making room for Curry right? He has a unanimous MVP and title as the best player on Durant already and should get similar accolades moving forward (I think good argument he has had better overall year so far). Maybe consider top 5. Then we have to consider a top 10 player yearly, very versatile and can play point forward, DPOY threat, great impact/stats and a lot of rings sounds kinda like a Scottie Pippen to me. So Draymond top 40?

To me we would be overrating these guys individually if we started to count rings/accolades like that and push them up the list is my thing. I know some people just count up that stuff then are done but to me the context takes so much away in these guys case that I just don't see it propelling him/them like you seem to with Durant (not saying you agree with me on these two bumped up that high but to me it's only fair if you do for one of them). It isn't impressive when it is stacked so heavily in their favor.

Again this could all change depending on how it plays out. Personally I think Curry has a pretty solid argument as the better player/more impactful individual. Honestly I think losing Curry or Green might be worse for them than Durant (and that's not just judging them individually but fit/team need).

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 03:12 AM
If those awards come just from the situation, again no. If what I mentioned in the longer post happens and he is pushed to the limit and his greatness shines through etc due to injuries to teammates or whatever then sure. If it is a situation where they are constantly this far ahead of everyone else then no I don't think it is very impressive.

To put it into something we have seen, despite the injuries/epic Boston game I mentioned and him being the clear best player carrying the team + great play throughout etc I see the finals run for Lebron being mocked more than being praised as something truly separating him from other greats. So even if Durant has a couple awards to go with rings if it is due to constantly being in this situation and not his own individual dominance then it would be a pretty easy call tbh because the context matters and it was expected.

Yeah but despite that LeBron is pretty much a consensus top 5 player of all time right now, right? Maybe like top 7 or down to top 10 for people who really don't like him lol. Like I was saying, does it hurt his chance at the tippy top? Sure. But is this all apples to apples? I mean, not really. I feel like every player gets a different set of rules when people are critiquing their career. I understand the different circumstances between Durant and LeBron's FA jumps. But, I also understand that their mentality in doing so was identical and that LeBron did it twice.

I don't really think they're in a whole different boat there. The thing is, underachieve or not, LeBron has 3 rings in the last 6 years since doing so. That's pretty damn good and has validated his decisions in a lot of ways. I think it still matters that he jumped twice, and I take that into consideration when I think of my rankings, but ultimately it's much more important that he has those 3 rings than if he went to Chicago or NY or where ever and ended up with 0. For Durant, it's the same story. He's gonna have to win a whole lot of them to validate it and if people still think it's easy just because of talent, then they didn't learn the lesson that LeBron learned in 2011.


I think they had more top heavy talent initially but there were a lot of teams over that span with something at least close (and that first year had no depth, it was the following years when they added better pieces around than starting Bibby/Anthony I think it was). Even if we look at who won just before they teamed up Kobe(psd top 2 player)/Gasol(psd top 10)/Bynum(psd #2 center) plus role players (fisher/Artest) and Phil. Boston had the big 3 aging and Rondo still. Then Westy/Harden/Durant/Ibaka were favored headed into the finals even. Many on here have called the 14 Spurs the best version with Duncan on the team. You can argue the Heat had more than these teams but in the end they weren't like the best/favorite team already then adding a top 3 or so player to further distance themselves, it was right in line with other top teams. It wasn't even close to that.


The Lakers had nothing on those Heat. Pau is wonderful but he is not anything close to Dwyane Wade. In 2009-10, Wade was 1st team All-NBA, 2nd team All-Defensive and finished 5th in MVP voting. Pau was 3rd team All-NBA and didn't even place for MVP voting. Bosh was right in Pau's alley, let alone a good role player coming off a terrible Finals in Odom and the extremely overrated Bynum who lived off Kobe and Pau. The Celtics didn't have a single All-NBA player while Rondo made 1st team All-Defensive.

You need some serious retroactive grading to pretend that Miami, top heavy or not, didn't have an enormous talent advantage and expectations on everyone. And that fact was true, cause the only reason they didn't win a title in year 1 was because LeBron choked. Otherwise, from the day of joining, they go on to 3peat. As I pointed out before it's only been done 3 times in the modern era (1980-) and 5 times overall (Celtics 8peat lmao). That's rare for a reason and Golden State 3peating would be quite impressive regardless of their talent. Any team that has won 3 titles in a row has been supremely talented over their competition. I mean, that's how that happens. Miami just underachieved.


The difference is GS can cruise without Durant even playing, Cle cruises because Lebron is dominating. That's the entire point and why it just doesn't seem like there is any way to get major credit. It's not just that this team is loaded enough to win, it's that they are loaded enough to win without him even playing. Lebron's teams haven't been in that realm at all, he has been the clear cut driving force (which when I talk impact below is huge to me).

I will start by saying I don't just look at FMVP and say ok yep he won that guy gets the credit. For example Curry was actually the best player in the finals a couple years back he just wasn't as good as expected and Iggy got the attention for guarding Bron and taking those open looks (generally off Curry attention). For Kobe it is usually brought up when people say 5 rings as if that means something in comparison to others greats, pointing out Shaq as the driving force is important context. So to me it always comes down to the actual impact/context which we agree makes it impossible to say for sure ahead of time but this situation doesn't seem to have the Warriors needing Durant like Lakers did Kobe to win their titles. That's going to be a big difference to me whether they each get 2 FMVP or Durant has more even, I am guessing they won't be as impressive individually speaking he just was the best guy for one series on a loaded team (like this year does FMVP make him better/more important than Curry or even Green who have had bigger impact throughout the year?).

Well, to be frank, they are also cruising right now just because the east is trash. It just is, and this year is the weakest east year since 2007. That's why I think we may be headed towards another 2014 type Finals, but I don't know let's see what happens. I think LeBron's Heat teams were better than these Cleveland teams. Not to take anything away from the performance LeBron and Kyrie had, but that loss was more about GS choking than them winning, IMO. Still, it takes two to tango and kudos to them forever. Nobody can ever take that from them.

I'm glad you think that way with FMVP, because I agree. Especially about Curry in 2015. I think fatigue and mortality should have been Co-MVP with Iguodala, if they really wanted to go that way lol. He played great D on LeBron, when he was on him, but let's be serious.

For me, this GS team is like the 80's Lakers. Curry and Durant are Magic and Kareem. Green is Worthy, and he may win a Finals MVP like Worthy did if they go on to win 5 rings together. Klay is that Jamaal Wilkes/Byron Scott who is there scoring 18-21 PPG sometimes but ultimately the 4th guy. On that note, I made a boo boo before and mixed up Magic and Kareem's Finals MVPs. Magic had 3 of the 5, Kareem had 1 and his one from Milwaukee.

But yeah, that's pretty high expectations. Nobody knocks those guys for being together because they won 5 Finals and went to 8. That's basically the kind of expectations that this Golden State team has to live up to to really offset these ideas that they're getting off easy. And really, they're talented enough to do something like that. All I'm saying, if they do something like that, I don't think anybody can knock them.


Last year Curry was hurt/injuredaffecting his play, Draymond got suspended, Bogut got injured last couple games, and they blew a 3-1 lead and lost the final game on a late shot (aka it was still extremely close despite the situation). All of this after using extra energy in the RS as a team to chase a wins record. Moving forward they are hitting their peak/improving and Lebron should be on the downfall as well. I don't see this as a situation where Durant is the clear difference to put them on top, I see a team that was headed towards running the league already adding a top player as further separation they likely didn't need but have now anyways.

Like sure he is the difference/reason it is such a big gap but not the main reason they are simply the favorite (I think before FA those came out and they were on top but not 100%). That could probably be argued either way though because despite the things I mention Cle did win and Lebron/Kyrie/cle role players deserve major credit too.


Very fair point and I don't disagree. A case could definitely be made that GS would have outlasted them and beat them regardless. I'm just saying, GS didn't validate themselves as a dominant champ over Cleveland and their injuries/suspension stuff last year pales in comparison to their fortune from 2015, when it took them 6 games to win.

And I do give Cleveland credit, and that's what I'm saying also plays a big factor. For me, Cleveland is the best team from the past two seasons because they won last year. That makes me believe that they would have won in 2015 if they were healthy, or at least makes it a very tough question. Or at least more reasonably healthy, because I think everyone forgets that Kevin Love was dealing with a concussion in last years Finals so he was hardly 100%.

So, while Durant did go to a super stacked team that won a **** load of regular season games, I don't think they were the best. Now? Yes, they very clearly should be the best. To me, GS vs CLE is LAL vs BOS in the 80's. Both teams are crazy talented and deep. Both teams are led by legends, LAL/GS having 2 top 10 all time talents while BOS/CLE has 1. McHale wasn't no slouch and Kyrie is no slouch. Those teams played in 3 Finals with LAL winning 2.

LAL 80's - 5 Championships, 8 Finals trips
BOS 80's - 3 Championships, 5 Finals trips

GS 10's - 1 Championship, 2 Finals trips
CLE 10's - 1 Championship, 2 Finals trips

Let's see how this goes and how fun it is. Let's see if either can match the overall success of those 80's juggernauts too.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 03:15 AM
So in the all time thing we are also making room for Curry right? He has a unanimous MVP and title as the best player on Durant already and should get similar accolades moving forward (I think good argument he has had better overall year so far). Maybe consider top 5. Then we have to consider a top 10 player yearly, very versatile and can play point forward, DPOY threat, great impact/stats and a lot of rings sounds kinda like a Scottie Pippen to me. So Draymond top 40?

To me we would be overrating these guys individually if we started to count rings/accolades like that and push them up the list is my thing. I know some people just count up that stuff then are done but to me the context takes so much away in these guys case that I just don't see it propelling him/them like you seem to with Durant (not saying you agree with me on these two bumped up that high but to me it's only fair if you do for one of them). It isn't impressive when it is stacked so heavily in their favor.

Again this could all change depending on how it plays out. Personally I think Curry has a pretty solid argument as the better player/more impactful individual. Honestly I think losing Curry or Green might be worse for them than Durant (and that's not just judging them individually but fit/team need).

Yeah, Curry can definitely get up there too. I mean look, Kareem and Magic are there. Curry being a late bloomer and potentially having health issues to limit his longevity may keep him out, but talent wise he's just as viable for sure.

nastynice
05-05-2017, 03:42 AM
Winning a title with this team means nothing to me in terms of his all time rank.

stop lying, it means everything to you

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 03:44 AM
Yeah but despite that LeBron is pretty much a consensus top 5 player of all time right now, right? Maybe like top 7 or down to top 10 for people who really don't like him lol. Like I was saying, does it hurt his chance at the tippy top? Sure. But is this all apples to apples? I mean, not really.

Yes he is, because not only did all of the other things I mentioned and we talked about to start the season happened for him (along with him being better beforehand too), he lead these teams past similar level teams every finals and last year many say even overacheived. Those are the keys to why he became a top 5 player, if they just get out of the east over and over like expected to handily. If he just beat lesser teams like expected even with those good performances people would not be nearly as impressed, just like they shouldn't be with GS. It is obviously stacked.


I feel like every player gets a different set of rules when people are critiquing their career. I understand the different circumstances between Durant and LeBron's FA jumps. But, I also understand that their mentality in doing so was identical and that LeBron did it twice. I don't really think they're in a whole different boat there. The thing is, underachieve or not, LeBron has 3 rings in the last 6 years since doing so. That's pretty damn good and has validated his decisions in a lot of ways. I think it still matters that he jumped twice, and I take that into consideration when I think of my rankings, but ultimately it's much more important that he has those 3 rings than if he went to Chicago or NY or where ever and ended up with 0. For Durant, it's the same story. He's gonna have to win a whole lot of them to validate it and if people still think it's easy just because of talent, then they didn't learn the lesson that LeBron learned in 2011.

To me this is just ignoring everything from previous discussions, it isn't anywhere close. There are tons of reasons why and it has been gone over a million times.


The Lakers had nothing on those Heat. Pau is wonderful but he is not anything close to Dwyane Wade. In 2009-10, Wade was 1st team All-NBA, 2nd team All-Defensive and finished 5th in MVP voting. Pau was 3rd team All-NBA and didn't even place for MVP voting. Bosh was right in Pau's alley, let alone a good role player coming off a terrible Finals in Odom and the extremely overrated Bynum who lived off Kobe and Pau. The Celtics didn't have a single All-NBA player while Rondo made 1st team All-Defensive.

You need some serious retroactive grading to pretend that Miami, top heavy or not, didn't have an enormous talent advantage and expectations on everyone. And that fact was true, cause the only reason they didn't win a title in year 1 was because LeBron choked. Otherwise, from the day of joining, they go on to 3peat. As I pointed out before it's only been done 3 times in the modern era (1980-) and 5 times overall (Celtics 8peat lmao). That's rare for a reason and Golden State 3peating would be quite impressive regardless of their talent. Any team that has won 3 titles in a row has been supremely talented over their competition. I mean, that's how that happens. Miami just underachieved.


I think you are re-writing things after the fact some compared to actual perception at the time. They were coming off a title and again on psd's top 10 had 2 guys, Bynum was the #2 center that year as well, and they had odom/fisher/artest with Phil. The perception was that the team was loaded at the time despite the fall off to come. Miami was considered better because of their top talent like I said but the depth/coaching favored lakers handily and it wasn't like they didn't have 2 top 10 guys themselves. We went over the odds etc in the other thread and how they compare to this year for GS too (GS is in another league). It was like the exact discussion from before so I guess agree to disagree.



Well, to be frank, they are also cruising right now just because the east is trash. It just is, and this year is the weakest east year since 2007. That's why I think we may be headed towards another 2014 type Finals, but I don't know let's see what happens. I think LeBron's Heat teams were better than these Cleveland teams. Not to take anything away from the performance LeBron and Kyrie had, but that loss was more about GS choking than them winning, IMO. Still, it takes two to tango and kudos to them forever. Nobody can ever take that from them.

I'm glad you think that way with FMVP, because I agree. Especially about Curry in 2015. I think fatigue and mortality should have been Co-MVP with Iguodala, if they really wanted to go that way lol. He played great D on LeBron, when he was on him, but let's be serious.

For me, this GS team is like the 80's Lakers. Curry and Durant are Magic and Kareem. Green is Worthy, and he may win a Finals MVP like Worthy did if they go on to win 5 rings together. Klay is that Jamaal Wilkes/Byron Scott who is there scoring 18-21 PPG sometimes but ultimately the 4th guy. On that note, I made a boo boo before and mixed up Magic and Kareem's Finals MVPs. Magic had 3 of the 5, Kareem had 1 and his one from Milwaukee.

But yeah, that's pretty high expectations. Nobody knocks those guys for being together because they won 5 Finals and went to 8. That's basically the kind of expectations that this Golden State team has to live up to to really offset these ideas that they're getting off easy. And really, they're talented enough to do something like that. All I'm saying, if they do something like that, I don't think anybody can knock them.

I won't knock them down but I also won't prop them up for doing what they should have done (assuming it goes as it seems). Same with Lebron winning the east, again. The east might be bad but without Lebron this Cle team is very unproven so I don't think we know (and all evidence points to it falling off big). With Durant we have seen in the past and now with his injuries, it is quite obvious this team runs just fine without him.




Very fair point and I don't disagree. A case could definitely be made that GS would have outlasted them and beat them regardless. I'm just saying, GS didn't validate themselves as a dominant champ over Cleveland and their injuries/suspension stuff last year pales in comparison to their fortune from 2015, when it took them 6 games to win.

And I do give Cleveland credit, and that's what I'm saying also plays a big factor. For me, Cleveland is the best team from the past two seasons because they won last year. That makes me believe that they would have won in 2015 if they were healthy, or at least makes it a very tough question. Or at least more reasonably healthy, because I think everyone forgets that Kevin Love was dealing with a concussion in last years Finals so he was hardly 100%.

So, while Durant did go to a super stacked team that won a **** load of regular season games, I don't think they were the best. Now? Yes, they very clearly should be the best. To me, GS vs CLE is LAL vs BOS in the 80's. Both teams are crazy talented and deep. Both teams are led by legends, LAL/GS having 2 top 10 all time talents while BOS/CLE has 1. McHale wasn't no slouch and Kyrie is no slouch. Those teams played in 3 Finals with LAL winning 2.

LAL 80's - 5 Championships, 8 Finals trips
BOS 80's - 3 Championships, 5 Finals trips

GS 10's - 1 Championship, 2 Finals trips
CLE 10's - 1 Championship, 2 Finals trips

Let's see how this goes and how fun it is. Let's see if either can match the overall success of those 80's juggernauts too.

I think it WAS a great match-up like that lol, thats why it is less fun imo. We had a situation going into this year to really see these teams hopefully healthy go for the third one against each other and claim who is better. Now we just get to see one of them after adding Durant be the clear cut favorites and I have seen a few people say if Lebron/Cle win it brings him into and argument for Jordan level. That is how far ahead GS is to some people, it's just not comparable imo anymore because of the Durant move.

To me the better team (if healthy and everyone plays) lost each year in the finals lol. I thought GS was a bit too raw year 1 but didn't run into enough firepower to expose it because of the injuries. Last year I think Curry not being 100%, Green suspension and that situation in geneeral (plus bogut), and chasing 73 wins leaving them a bit more tired while Cle was likely focused on title fully not caring about RS all played a part in blowing a 3-1 lead and losing in the final minute. So we aren't that far off it's just I saw GS already taking over and likely to keep advancing already.

nastynice
05-05-2017, 03:47 AM
LAL 80's - 5 Championships, 8 Finals trips
BOS 80's - 3 Championships, 5 Finals trips

GS 10's - 1 Championship, 2 Finals trips
CLE 10's - 1 Championship, 2 Finals trips

Let's see how this goes and how fun it is. Let's see if either can match the overall success of those 80's juggernauts too.

:nod: yup, this is exactly what I'm hoping these dubs turn into. Lebron is your modern jordan, I want to modernize showtime.

Who's the better player, all time ranks, don't care really, I just want to see that block of dominance. That decade of dominance. Not that I'm unaware how difficult a feat that is, but as it looks right now, yes its an outside shot BUT there's potential

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 03:53 AM
Yeah, Curry can definitely get up there too. I mean look, Kareem and Magic are there. Curry being a late bloomer and potentially having health issues to limit his longevity may keep him out, but talent wise he's just as viable for sure.

I just don't see the same dominance from Durant as them at all. To me the only thing comparable is being on talented teams and having titles, not the actual on court play/impact.

He has many question marks so far in his career imo as an individual and if the only championships come on a team that was proven before/without him it is not enough to knock out those other greats just because of that team.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 05:00 AM
To the stuff before this, fair points as usual and yes we can agree to disagree.


I won't knock them down but I also won't prop them up for doing what they should have done (assuming it goes as it seems). Same with Lebron winning the east, again. The east might be bad but without Lebron this Cle team is very unproven so I don't think we know (and all evidence points to it falling off big). With Durant we have seen in the past and now with his injuries, it is quite obvious this team runs just fine without him.

I mean that game is tough. Everyone knows that both of these teams are playing with different money. The thing is, nobody is expecting this Cleveland team to win 4 or 5 rings. Nobody should have expected that from day 1, given the sample we had from Miami with a superior team. So, having said that, everything is relative.

Again, pointing to the 80's Lakers, they were great. But yeah, they should have been that great. Even then, they underachieved. They won 5 but they lost 3. Magic had a Finals so bad they were calling him Tragic Johnson. Thanks to an earlier trade, they ended up with a #1 overall pick to draft James Worthy despite coming off an NBA Championship. Without that, they were not winning 5 championships or going to 8 Finals. They were fine before James Worthy. They were fine before Pat Riley. They were fine in game 7 without Kareem.

Should we dock Magic or Kareem for their organization making a great trade to end up with that pick? Hell, should we dock Magic for the Lakers stealing Kareem from Milwaukee before he even got there? Should we knock Kareem for forcing a trade to a big market, basically NY or LA at those times, like we do for players now? There was no FA so that was the only way. How does this work, exactly? Why is it okay for Kareem and Magic, hell and LeBron, to be top 5 players all time with all of their amazing fortune, but it wouldn't be for Durant?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this as well, cause if Durant is a 4-5 time champion with well over 30,000 points, etc, I don't see how you leave him out of the top 15, let alone the top 5 or 10. That seems extremely biased and specific to Durant.


I think it WAS a great match-up like that lol, thats why it is less fun imo. We had a situation going into this year to really see these teams hopefully healthy go for the third one against each other and claim who is better. Now we just get to see one of them after adding Durant be the clear cut favorites and I have seen a few people say if Lebron/Cle win it brings him into and argument for Jordan level. That is how far ahead GS is to some people, it's just not comparable imo anymore because of the Durant move.

To me the better team (if healthy and everyone plays) lost each year in the finals lol. I thought GS was a bit too raw year 1 but didn't run into enough firepower to expose it because of the injuries. Last year I think Curry not being 100%, Green suspension and that situation in geneeral (plus bogut), and chasing 73 wins leaving them a bit more tired while Cle was likely focused on title fully not caring about RS all played a part in blowing a 3-1 lead and losing in the final minute. So we aren't that far off it's just I saw GS already taking over and likely to keep advancing already.

I think everything LeBron has done since 2010 has made the NBA less fun. Yeah, Durant made it worse but I have no sympathy for LeBron with all the house money he has played with the last 7 years. He's gotten a taste of his own medicine, as far as I'm concerned. He joined the 5th in voting MVP Wade after winning MVP and in Miami no other team had two guys finish top 10 in MVP voting like Miami did their first two years. Year 3, Duncan and Westbrook joined the fray while Wade was still top 10. Wade dominated the 2011 Finals and LeBron let them down. Maybe this year, that's Durant idk. Maybe it's the opposite and Curry lets them down? Then what?

Yeah, it would have been fun to see their outcome without Durant. You know, it would have been fun to see if Miami and San Antonio could have had a part 3 too. It would have been fun to see if Cleveland could ever beat that Boston team. It would have been fun to see if Durant and WB could beat GS or if their 3-1 lead was a talent fluke. The trail from 2010 has led to a super top heavy league with a crazy amount of terrible teams tanking.

Wanna see something crazy? Check this out,

From 03-04 to 09-10, 7 years before "The Decision", here are the worst teams by win %.

1 - NY Knicks - .369 (FML, bless you Melo for coming here and trying lol)
2- CHA Hornets - .382
3 - LA Clippers - .389
4 - MIN TWolves - .397
5 - ATL Hawks - .402

0 teams below 35%
1 team below 37% (at the cusp)
4 teams below 40%
7 teams below 43%
12 teams below 45%

Wanna see them since "The Decision"?

1 - PHI 76ers - .332 (#trustheprocess)
2 - MIN TWolves - .341
3 - SAC Kings - .351
4 - NJ/BK Nets - .391
5 - ORL Magic - .396
6 - CHA Hornets - .398 (bonus cause another sub 40% :( )

2 teams below 35%
3 teams below 37%
6 teams below 40%
11 teams below 43%
12 teams below 45%

LeBron ruined the NBA. He was supposed to bring balance to the NBA, not destroy it!

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 05:17 AM
I just don't see the same dominance from Durant as them at all. To me the only thing comparable is being on talented teams and having titles, not the actual on court play/impact.

He has many question marks so far in his career imo as an individual and if the only championships come on a team that was proven before/without him it is not enough to knock out those other greats just because of that team.

Interesting, I think Durant is very dominant. May I remind you of his MVP season and what he did while WB was hurt?

25 games, 19-6 record
35.0 PTS, 7.5 REB, 6.3 AST, 1.3 STL, 0.7 BLK, 3.9 TO
11.8-22.4 FGA (.527), 2.6-6.5 3PTA (.399), 8.8-10.1 FTA (.878)

Reggie Jackson-Thabo Sefolosha-Kevin Durant-Serge Ibaka-Kendrick Perkins lineup - 19-5
Reggie Jackson-Kevin Durant-Perry Jones III-Serge Ibaka-Kendrick Perkins lineup - 0-1

The Westbrook case is a tough one. One, obviously yes he's extremely good and talented. Two, he doesn't really play well with others and his insane ball dominance at times late in games, especially playoff games, was detrimental to their team when they had Kevin Durant.

That year in the WCF,

Durant - 25.8 PTS, 7.7 REB, 3.2 AST, 1.2 STL, 1.2 BLK, 3.3 TO and shot .475/.333/.757 on 122/33/37 shots
Westbrook - 26.8 PTS, 5.7 REB, 7.3 AST, 3.2 STL, 0.3 BLK, 4.0 TO and shot .407/.281/.912 on 123/32/57 shots

WB did **** like this all the time. WB has never been, and will never be, a better or more efficient scorer than Durant yet he chucked his way to as many or more shots on many occasions. WB may have helped the team, because he was really good despite his double edged nature, but IMO he always held Durant back far more than he helped him. I mean just in terms of letting him have the ball and shoot as much as he should have been, jesus lol.

Durant was great in the 2011 Finals and games 2, 3 and 4 were won by 4, 6 and 6 points. Really, the Thunder didn't lose that series cause Durant and WB were outplayed by LeBron and Wade. They lost that series cause James Harden was outplayed by Mario Chalmers lol. And Bosh outplayed Ibaka, obviously.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 05:51 AM
To the stuff before this, fair points as usual and yes we can agree to disagree.



I mean that game is tough. Everyone knows that both of these teams are playing with different money. The thing is, nobody is expecting this Cleveland team to win 4 or 5 rings. Nobody should have expected that from day 1, given the sample we had from Miami with a superior team. So, having said that, everything is relative.

Again, pointing to the 80's Lakers, they were great. But yeah, they should have been that great. Even then, they underachieved. They won 5 but they lost 3. Magic had a Finals so bad they were calling him Tragic Johnson. Thanks to an earlier trade, they ended up with a #1 overall pick to draft James Worthy despite coming off an NBA Championship. Without that, they were not winning 5 championships or going to 8 Finals. They were fine before James Worthy. They were fine before Pat Riley. They were fine in game 7 without Kareem.

Should we dock Magic or Kareem for their organization making a great trade to end up with that pick? Hell, should we dock Magic for the Lakers stealing Kareem from Milwaukee before he even got there? Should we knock Kareem for forcing a trade to a big market, basically NY or LA at those times, like we do for players now? There was no FA so that was the only way. How does this work, exactly? Why is it okay for Kareem and Magic, hell and LeBron, to be top 5 players all time with all of their amazing fortune, but it wouldn't be for Durant?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this as well, cause if Durant is a 4-5 time champion with well over 30,000 points, etc, I don't see how you leave him out of the top 15, let alone the top 5 or 10. That seems extremely biased and specific to Durant.

I don't think it is a tough game, I think it is how players should be judged. I get some disagree but to me just counting the accolades etc is such a poor method. The context behind it all is what is so important and people have to use it to some extent either way I just think it should be the most important. We can agree that the Lakers didn't necessarily overachieve and I am someone who normally knocks Magic lower than most partly because I don't value the rings as highly as some might (he is top 10 for me still on the tail end but not 5). Kareem was dominating on the court long before they teamed up and was also older and not in his prime for many years which is an important factor in this as well that can't be overlooked. Again there are just too many differences for Durant and this situation imo to really compare to anything.

Since their finals appearance in 12 (2013 thru this year or last if you only want on OKC) Westy in the playoffs has had a better PER,WS/48,BPM overall and better on/off numbers. In general the on/off, RAPM and RPM numbers seemed to like him around or above Durant in the RS some too although a little mixed (durant lead rpm in 2014). This year Durant was behind Curry and Green in RPM and their playoffs have also been better on those same numbers. There are just so many questions with him, it seems like there is usually another player on his own team impacting the game at a similar level or higher (and that his teams may rely on more to create which may be a flaw of his). Now just because he joined a situation where he is going to win whether or not he might be getting overrated individually? Nah I just can't do it until I actually see the greatness and him being that clear cut dominating factor. To me there are just major questions about how much of an influence he really is as an individual and if maybe his game is reliant on others creating and him just picking and choosing his spots to get his own efficiently (nothing major wrong with that but something to consider for a top 10 guy if he can't create really well/relies on others for that and isn't a DPOY type).




I think everything LeBron has done since 2010 has made the NBA less fun. Yeah, Durant made it worse but I have no sympathy for LeBron with all the house money he has played with the last 7 years. He's gotten a taste of his own medicine, as far as I'm concerned. He joined the 5th in voting MVP Wade after winning MVP and in Miami no other team had two guys finish top 10 in MVP voting like Miami did their first two years. Year 3, Duncan and Westbrook joined the fray while Wade was still top 10. Wade dominated the 2011 Finals and LeBron let them down. Maybe this year, that's Durant idk. Maybe it's the opposite and Curry lets them down? Then what?

Yeah, it would have been fun to see their outcome without Durant. You know, it would have been fun to see if Miami and San Antonio could have had a part 3 too. It would have been fun to see if Cleveland could ever beat that Boston team. It would have been fun to see if Durant and WB could beat GS or if their 3-1 lead was a talent fluke. The trail from 2010 has led to a super top heavy league with a crazy amount of terrible teams tanking.

Wanna see something crazy? Check this out,

From 03-04 to 09-10, 7 years before "The Decision", here are the worst teams by win %.

1 - NY Knicks - .369 (FML, bless you Melo for coming here and trying lol)
2- CHA Hornets - .382
3 - LA Clippers - .389
4 - MIN TWolves - .397
5 - ATL Hawks - .402

4 teams below 40%
7 teams below 43%
12 teams below 45%

Wanna see them since "The Decision"?

1 - PHI 76ers - .332 (#trustheprocess)
2 - MIN TWolves - .341
3 - SAC Kings - .351
4 - NJ/BK Nets - .391
5 - ORL Magic - .396
6 - CHA Hornets - .398 (bonus cause another sub 40% :( )

6 teams below 40%
11 teams below 43%
12 teams below 45%

LeBron ruined the NBA. He was supposed to bring balance to the NBA, not destroy it!

Well I guess we just see things differently, to me the less fun part is because the outcome seems so obvious as I have continued to point out. The difference you want to keep writing off and that we have gone over before are the obvious reasons why and its why I bring up the odds etc to back it up. I don't care much about the bottom teams or anything like that but I do prefer that if there is a team already proven at the top of the league and having won a title, set RS record etc that a top 3 player not just hop on for the ride to titles. If he chooses to do it I wont just ignore his question marks and actual play/talent level and prop him up with those team accomplishments.

I do agree that Lebron's decision was a bit weak, I have been over it in other threads before so it is not something I give a total pass to. The context I have explained helps him a ton though and it is pretty obvious to most that Durants was far weaker and he is more or less hopping on for the ride and creating a big gap (while Lebron was the huge driving force making those Heat teams favorites/close behind favorites).

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 06:08 AM
Interesting, I think Durant is very dominant. May I remind you of his MVP season and what he did while WB was hurt?

25 games, 19-6 record
35.0 PTS, 7.5 REB, 6.3 AST, 1.3 STL, 0.7 BLK, 3.9 TO
11.8-22.4 FGA (.527), 2.6-6.5 3PTA (.399), 8.8-10.1 FTA (.878)

Reggie Jackson-Thabo Sefolosha-Kevin Durant-Serge Ibaka-Kendrick Perkins lineup - 19-5
Reggie Jackson-Kevin Durant-Perry Jones III-Serge Ibaka-Kendrick Perkins lineup - 0-1

The Westbrook case is a tough one. One, obviously yes he's extremely good and talented. Two, he doesn't really play well with others and his insane ball dominance at times late in games, especially playoff games, was detrimental to their team when they had Kevin Durant.

That year in the WCF,

Durant - 25.8 PTS, 7.7 REB, 3.2 AST, 1.2 STL, 1.2 BLK, 3.3 TO and shot .475/.333/.757 on 122/33/37 shots
Westbrook - 26.8 PTS, 5.7 REB, 7.3 AST, 3.2 STL, 0.3 BLK, 4.0 TO and shot .407/.281/.912 on 123/32/57 shots

WB did **** like this all the time. WB has never been, and will never be, a better or more efficient scorer than Durant yet he chucked his way to as many or more shots on many occasions. WB may have helped the team, because he was really good despite his double edged nature, but IMO he always held Durant back far more than he helped him. I mean just in terms of letting him have the ball and shoot as much as he should have been, jesus lol.

Durant was great in the 2011 Finals and games 2, 3 and 4 were won by 4, 6 and 6 points. Really, the Thunder didn't lose that series cause Durant and WB were outplayed by LeBron and Wade. They lost that series cause James Harden was outplayed by Mario Chalmers lol. And Bosh outplayed Ibaka, obviously.

While that is true Durant will never be able to create for the team or others like Westy. They relied on Westy to create for the team when Durant wasn't the one scoring. Yes he will take poor shots and never be as efficient as Durant in the same way. The overall point is there were issues for both players, some do try and put the blame on just Westy's shoulders though. In reality look at the numbers for both and it doesn't look great for Durant. Also while Westy didn't play great late in playoff games neither did Durant really. In 14/16 their last two playoffs when 5 min or less and a 5 pt game he had .470 and .446 EFG%, westy had .495 and .384 EFG so neither was great. In the game 6 many blame on Westy for late, KD was 1-4 with a turnover after coming into the game later on, he played poorly too at the end. He had problems as well it wasn't just on one of them and again the numbers in total favor Westy for that span.

Both of them had some overall issues but KD seems to be reliant on others to create (on those late shots over 60% of his were assisted while Westy was creating his own at under 20%, that can hurt efficiency for sure too and should be factored in). To me Durant is a little bit more about picking his spots to score than creating, so GS is great for him in that sense with likely more open looks and I think he knew it. His MVP season was great but again his playoffs have been very lacking and he usually has teammates playing at his level. It doesn't scream top 10 player to me at all with those questions and just getting rings on this team can't cover that up.

valade16
05-05-2017, 11:01 AM
If Durant wasn't on the Warriors, would they still be favorites to win the title?

hugepatsfan
05-05-2017, 11:42 AM
Here's why your comparison is wrong:

1) When LeBron created his big three, other teams already began creating one as well. It wasn't like they were THAT much better than every other team. And if they were, it was because of LeBron.
2) LeBron deserves much of the championship credit because Bosh+Wade generally were past their prime after the 1st season. Hell, Bosh wasn't much of the contributor people make it seem he was.
3) That Heat team was great. This Warriors team is historic. They had already won a championship/made two NBA Finals/had a 2x MVP/posted the greatest regular season record ever without Durant. And this Warriors team are all at their prime.

It's pretty easy to see that while they both technically "went" to a better team, LeBron created the greatness in Miami. Durant is simply joining one that is already great.

Eh let's not forget that Lebron was kind of a *****. Their big 3 was that much better than everyone else. It would like if instead of Ray Allen, BOS had Kobe. It would be like if in addition to Kobe/Shaq, the Lakers had another top 15ish player in the game. Lebron and Wade were 2 of the top 3 players in basketball. Those two teaming up with another top 15ish guy in Bosh, in their primes no less, was definitely that much more than what other big 3s had.

It still pales in comparison to what Durant did. Him/Curry are like a Wade/Lebron but instead of one Chris Bosh type they have two. It's just an absurd embarrassment of riches. And they have every right to play together but being on a team that loaded doesn't really mean much for any of their individual legacies because it's such an easy route to take.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2017, 11:48 AM
If Durant wasn't on the Warriors, would they still be favorites to win the title?

Yes

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 12:13 PM
If Durant wasn't on the Warriors, would they still be favorites to win the title?

They were favorites when odds came out before FA at 3/2. Without Durant so far this year they are 16-4 (or 5 since he only played like 2 mins in loss) despite him missing mid season so they pretty much didn't miss a beat (not to mention two playoff wins as well, 2-0).

I think they still would be favorites without him.

lol, please
05-05-2017, 02:42 PM
I don't think it is a tough game, I think it is how players should be judged. I get some disagree but to me just counting the accolades etc is such a poor method. The context behind it all is what is so important and people have to use it to some extent either way I just think it should be the most important. We can agree that the Lakers didn't necessarily overachieve and I am someone who normally knocks Magic lower than most partly because I don't value the rings as highly as some might (he is top 10 for me still on the tail end but not 5). Kareem was dominating on the court long before they teamed up and was also older and not in his prime for many years which is an important factor in this as well that can't be overlooked. Again there are just too many differences for Durant and this situation imo to really compare to anything.

Since their finals appearance in 12 (2013 thru this year or last if you only want on OKC) Westy in the playoffs has had a better PER,WS/48,BPM overall and better on/off numbers. In general the on/off, RAPM and RPM numbers seemed to like him around or above Durant in the RS some too although a little mixed (durant lead rpm in 2014). This year Durant was behind Curry and Green in RPM and their playoffs have also been better on those same numbers. There are just so many questions with him, it seems like there is usually another player on his own team impacting the game at a similar level or higher (and that his teams may rely on more to create which may be a flaw of his). Now just because he joined a situation where he is going to win whether or not he might be getting overrated individually? Nah I just can't do it until I actually see the greatness and him being that clear cut dominating factor. To me there are just major questions about how much of an influence he really is as an individual and if maybe his game is reliant on others creating and him just picking and choosing his spots to get his own efficiently (nothing major wrong with that but something to consider for a top 10 guy if he can't create really well/relies on others for that and isn't a DPOY type).





Well I guess we just see things differently, to me the less fun part is because the outcome seems so obvious as I have continued to point out. The difference you want to keep writing off and that we have gone over before are the obvious reasons why and its why I bring up the odds etc to back it up. I don't care much about the bottom teams or anything like that but I do prefer that if there is a team already proven at the top of the league and having won a title, set RS record etc that a top 3 player not just hop on for the ride to titles. If he chooses to do it I wont just ignore his question marks and actual play/talent level and prop him up with those team accomplishments.

I do agree that Lebron's decision was a bit weak, I have been over it in other threads before so it is not something I give a total pass to. The context I have explained helps him a ton though and it is pretty obvious to most that Durants was far weaker and he is more or less hopping on for the ride and creating a big gap (while Lebron was the huge driving force making those Heat teams favorites/close behind favorites).

Lebron make a PROMISE to Cleveland he broke (winning much later down the road after returning doesn't erase that). When did Durant make and break such a promise?

Few things are more related to respect for a man than his word.

Perplexing how people overlook the most important differentiating fact between the two situations. Durant was just a FA putting himself in the best position possible.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2017, 02:49 PM
Lebron make a PROMISE to Cleveland he broke (winning much later down the road after returning doesn't erase that). When did Durant make and break such a promise?

Few things are more related to respect for a man than his word.

Perplexing how people overlook the most important differentiating fact between the two situations. Durant was just a FA putting himself in the best position possible.

wtf? That is exactly what LeBron did. He just didn't have the opportunity to join a team that won a chip, 73 games, had the back to back MVP, with 2 other top 20 players, all in their peaks, already in place.

LeBron created a great team he needed to lead. Durant joined an already SUPER team he doesn't even need to show up for and they win.

They both left in FA. No difference there. Durant simply tossed his legacy aside, to win. And he has said he doesn't care about his legacy, so that is fine.

There is a clear difference between the two.

valade16
05-05-2017, 02:55 PM
If we just count accolades how is Pippen not a top 10 player all-time? He has 6 rings and was part of the best team in NBA history (or at least one of).

nastynice
05-05-2017, 03:00 PM
wtf? That is exactly what LeBron did. He just didn't have the opportunity to join a team that won a chip, 73 games, had the back to back MVP, with 2 other top 20 players, all in their peaks, already in place.

LeBron created a great team he needed to lead. Durant joined an already SUPER team he doesn't even need to show up for and they win.

They both left in FA. No difference there. Durant simply tossed his legacy aside, to win. And he has said he doesn't care about his legacy, so that is fine.

There is a clear difference between the two.

The biggest difference is that Durant wasn't a walking circus show during his FA.

valade16
05-05-2017, 03:12 PM
The biggest difference is that Durant wasn't a walking circus show during his FA.

Yeah the two biggest differences were:

KD going to an established championship team

LeBron's decision and the circus that accompanied it.

LeBron deserves far more criticism in how he did it and KD deserves more criticism for what he did.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2017, 03:17 PM
The biggest difference is that Durant wasn't a walking circus show during his FA.

Like I always said, if you want to crap on James for the way he handled FA, go for it.

But his move was nowhere near as pansy as Durant's, from a competitive standpoint. There is a difference breaking away, and leading a team (with better players) to winning, and just joining a machine already in place.

Durant pulled the biggest vagina move in NBA history for a superstar.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 03:22 PM
I don't think it is a tough game, I think it is how players should be judged. I get some disagree but to me just counting the accolades etc is such a poor method. The context behind it all is what is so important and people have to use it to some extent either way I just think it should be the most important. We can agree that the Lakers didn't necessarily overachieve and I am someone who normally knocks Magic lower than most partly because I don't value the rings as highly as some might (he is top 10 for me still on the tail end but not 5). Kareem was dominating on the court long before they teamed up and was also older and not in his prime for many years which is an important factor in this as well that can't be overlooked. Again there are just too many differences for Durant and this situation imo to really compare to anything.

Since their finals appearance in 12 (2013 thru this year or last if you only want on OKC) Westy in the playoffs has had a better PER,WS/48,BPM overall and better on/off numbers. In general the on/off, RAPM and RPM numbers seemed to like him around or above Durant in the RS some too although a little mixed (durant lead rpm in 2014). This year Durant was behind Curry and Green in RPM and their playoffs have also been better on those same numbers. There are just so many questions with him, it seems like there is usually another player on his own team impacting the game at a similar level or higher (and that his teams may rely on more to create which may be a flaw of his). Now just because he joined a situation where he is going to win whether or not he might be getting overrated individually? Nah I just can't do it until I actually see the greatness and him being that clear cut dominating factor. To me there are just major questions about how much of an influence he really is as an individual and if maybe his game is reliant on others creating and him just picking and choosing his spots to get his own efficiently (nothing major wrong with that but something to consider for a top 10 guy if he can't create really well/relies on others for that and isn't a DPOY type).





Well I guess we just see things differently, to me the less fun part is because the outcome seems so obvious as I have continued to point out. The difference you want to keep writing off and that we have gone over before are the obvious reasons why and its why I bring up the odds etc to back it up. I don't care much about the bottom teams or anything like that but I do prefer that if there is a team already proven at the top of the league and having won a title, set RS record etc that a top 3 player not just hop on for the ride to titles. If he chooses to do it I wont just ignore his question marks and actual play/talent level and prop him up with those team accomplishments.

I do agree that Lebron's decision was a bit weak, I have been over it in other threads before so it is not something I give a total pass to. The context I have explained helps him a ton though and it is pretty obvious to most that Durants was far weaker and he is more or less hopping on for the ride and creating a big gap (while Lebron was the huge driving force making those Heat teams favorites/close behind favorites).

Lebron make a PROMISE to Cleveland he broke (winning much later down the road after returning doesn't erase that). When did Durant make and break such a promise?

Few things are more related to respect for a man than his word.

Perplexing how people overlook the most important differentiating fact between the two situations. Durant was just a FA putting himself in the best position possible.

I don't care about what these guys say lol I care about what happens on the court. Durant had something to say about lebron going to Miami, don't care about that in his legacy either.

See we can pick and choose what storylines and media context matters or we can judge them on their actual play. I haven't sat here saying I hate Durant as a man or anything like that. I just think his decision and what happens after in a basketball sense need context (like I do for everyone else).

Not to mention he did just help get cle a title lol, it actually did happen in the end (aka promise fulfilled). Lebron handled his situation worse with media etc and the show it became so again if that's key to you then sure his can be worse but that's not overly important to me. I am not arguing that lebron is a better or worse person than Durant. I am arguing about their impact/level/rating on the court.

When I think legacy I think their on court impact, teams they were on, competition etc. Jordan isn't knocked on lists for punching a teammate either.
When it comes to that impact/ability stuff as my posts point out Durant seems clearly lacking IMO. Hopping on for the ride here won't change that to me.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 03:31 PM
Lol I guess you all had that covered before me. Agreed, the circus/media aspect was the big difference for lebron and Durants team/on court context are the big difference for him.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 03:38 PM
If we just count accolades how is Pippen not a top 10 player all-time? He has 6 rings and was part of the best team in NBA history (or at least one of).

Hondo with 8 rings, finals MVP, 13 all star, 8 all defense. Top 5 or so right?

But ya you seem to get my point, just racking up the accolades because he chose to join a team capable/favorited without him doesn't mean he just starts jumping people he wasn't ahead of already based on his actual play. Are Bulls favored without pippen in this same way?

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 03:39 PM
I don't think it is a tough game, I think it is how players should be judged. I get some disagree but to me just counting the accolades etc is such a poor method. The context behind it all is what is so important and people have to use it to some extent either way I just think it should be the most important. We can agree that the Lakers didn't necessarily overachieve and I am someone who normally knocks Magic lower than most partly because I don't value the rings as highly as some might (he is top 10 for me still on the tail end but not 5). Kareem was dominating on the court long before they teamed up and was also older and not in his prime for many years which is an important factor in this as well that can't be overlooked. Again there are just too many differences for Durant and this situation imo to really compare to anything.

I understand all of this and mostly agree, but you still have Kareem and Magic top 10, right? He doesn't have to pass those two to be top 10, right? I think you're really underrating how good Durant is and the fact that is if they go on to win 4-5 championships that he is going to be an enormous reason why.

You can't say in one breath that Durant is a top 3 player and then in the next say well, I'm not sure how much he has to do with them winning. I get that you don't like his decision but it doesn't change the reality of how good he is. They were better without him last year, and this year when he got hurt. That's not because he isn't great or helpful, but simply because they have been together for years and he just got there. Here's the scary thought - how good are they going to be when he catches up? When he has chemistry with them on a high level and they all learn to play better together? That's when it's really going to be ****ed up.

Look at Miami in year 1 vs year 2. It wasn't just that they got better role players, but those three had to learn how to play together like any stars who are used to doing more. Durant is coming from super ISO land with Westbrook to this GS system, it's gonna take him that year. This year, Curry and Durant have been in that weird area like LeBron and Wade were in year 1 where they're producing because they're great vs really being in sync together. Next year and beyond? Yeah, that's when it's going to get nuts. They may even break that 73-win record, who knows?

And it's not like he isn't great already. I mean, maybe yesterday was the worst 25 point, 11 rebound, 7 assist, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover on 6-13/0-4/13-15 type game that has ever been played. I don't know, I kinda doubt it. You can try to ignore that he's still a top 4 player in the game, again shout out to Kawhi, but the reality is that he is. If not for him getting hurt, him finishing top 5 in MVP voting instead of Curry seemed automatic.

You're downplaying the reality that Durant is on the same level as Curry. That he may win another MVP or two with this team. That him winning Finals MVP is not an outlandish thought, even this year when he isn't even fully up to speed yet. Thinking that he's just going to blend in and be along for the ride is not very level headed, IMO.


Since their finals appearance in 12 (2013 thru this year or last if you only want on OKC) Westy in the playoffs has had a better PER,WS/48,BPM overall and better on/off numbers. In general the on/off, RAPM and RPM numbers seemed to like him around or above Durant in the RS some too although a little mixed (durant lead rpm in 2014). This year Durant was behind Curry and Green in RPM and their playoffs have also been better on those same numbers. There are just so many questions with him, it seems like there is usually another player on his own team impacting the game at a similar level or higher (and that his teams may rely on more to create which may be a flaw of his). Now just because he joined a situation where he is going to win whether or not he might be getting overrated individually? Nah I just can't do it until I actually see the greatness and him being that clear cut dominating factor. To me there are just major questions about how much of an influence he really is as an individual and if maybe his game is reliant on others creating and him just picking and choosing his spots to get his own efficiently (nothing major wrong with that but something to consider for a top 10 guy if he can't create really well/relies on others for that and isn't a DPOY type).

Listen, let's not confuse the level between Durant and Westbrook based on these metric things. There's a reason why Durant carried them at a 62-win pace over those 25 games when WB was hurt in 13-14 and why when Durant got hurt the next year they went 22-18 in games that WB played without him. That's a 45-win pace. You know, kind of like what they did this year. They played 35 total games in 13-14 with Durant and no WB and the Thunder went 24-11, a a 56-win pace over 82. 11 wins is a hell of a difference, especially as you get higher in win total. Just because these advanced stats can't measure something this simple doesn't mean it's not true, or obvious.

Westbrook has too many negative plays to compare him to Durant directly. Way too many bad shots. Way too many bad turnovers. Way too many defensive possessions where he floats and does nothing despite being an incredibly gifted defender when he is engaged.

All of these things add up and while his pros definitely outweigh his cons, Durant's top notch efficient play in all areas except turnovers at times was a huge part in making up for it. I didn't say that WB didn't help the Thunder win, of course he did. What I said was that Westbrook always held Durant back between his insane ball dominance not warranted by his lack of efficiency and that so much of Durant's high efficiency went towards making up for WB.

I agree that Durant was not absolved from blame, especially in that WCF collapse because they collapsed together, but overall he was the clear driving force to their success. Much in the same way that Wade and Bosh still had plenty to do with Miami's success while plenty of LeBron's fans try to severely downplay that.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html

Again, I point to this Finals. The difference in this Finals is not that LeBron had some big advantage over Durant or Wade over WB. It's very clearly comparing the players from 3 down for each team. Where is the context for that? All I see is people severely downplaying how amazing and stacked those Miami teams were.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206210MIA.html

Look at this box score in the clinching game 5 and tell me what is not GS-esque about that Miami team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206190MIA.html

Look at this 6 point loss in game 4 where Durant and WB were severely let down by James Harden being outscored 25-8 by Mario Chalmers. Again, 3 starters scoring 25 for Miami and one wasn't even Bosh.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206140OKC.html

Game 2, there's Shane Battier raining thunder and outscoring Ibaka, Thabo, Perkins and Fisher 17-16 by himself. KD, WB, Harden? 80 points. LeBron, Wade, Bosh? 72 points.

You want to talk about context but then act like Miami didn't have a severe advantage over teams in talent like GS does? I don't know, it's hard for me to take that serious.

They clearly did vs OKC, who after their trio basically had guys who might as well have not been there on offense. Harden was terrible failing to score 10 points in 3 of the 5 games. So was Ibaka, and OKC's general lack of experience as a really young team hurt them.

Against San Antonio they were a Bosh OREB and Ray Allen 3 from losing. They won 2 rings and deserved both, as any team deserves their championship, but context is remembering that they were 1 REB away from going 1-3 in the Finals when they had all the talent in the world. And talk about injuries, remember that Parker got hurt in that Finals after dominating in game 1. In their game 6 and 7 losses, Parker went 6-23 in a 3 point OT loss that needed that GT 3, and 3-12 in a 7 point loss. Think that hamstring also played a factor in their championship?

Context seems to be forgotten in history, because nobody seems to care about the advantages that LeBron had because he played great. Just like no one is going to care about Durant's, because he is also going to play great. There's that saying, and it definitely holds true in sports - history is written by the winners.


Well I guess we just see things differently, to me the less fun part is because the outcome seems so obvious as I have continued to point out. The difference you want to keep writing off and that we have gone over before are the obvious reasons why and its why I bring up the odds etc to back it up. I don't care much about the bottom teams or anything like that but I do prefer that if there is a team already proven at the top of the league and having won a title, set RS record etc that a top 3 player not just hop on for the ride to titles. If he chooses to do it I wont just ignore his question marks and actual play/talent level and prop him up with those team accomplishments.

I do agree that Lebron's decision was a bit weak, I have been over it in other threads before so it is not something I give a total pass to. The context I have explained helps him a ton though and it is pretty obvious to most that Durants was far weaker and he is more or less hopping on for the ride and creating a big gap (while Lebron was the huge driving force making those Heat teams favorites/close behind favorites).

I get all that, but again I think you simply are punishing Durant more for having an opportunity that LeBron didn't have. I focus more on their mentality, which was the same. LeBron didn't know that Miami was going to underachieve like they did. Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six. Those were the words from his own mouth, right? If LeBron was a FA in 2016 and was looking at those Warriors, guess where LeBron is going? Miami underachieved, it doesn't mean that they didn't have a huge talent advantage over everyone because they clearly did.

Does Durant have more of an advantage? Yes, but again expectations are relative right? If GS goes 2-2 the next four years like Miami did, that's a far bigger underachievement even if they are more dominant than Miami was in their two wins. If this GS team wins 4-5 rings, as they should barring any major injury or cap induced roster explosion, then they deserve that credit. You can't punish one team for winning on that level when the other teams in history to do so, the 90's Bulls, the 80's Lakers, the 60's Celtics and the 50's Lakers, were all just as insanely talented relative to their league. That's the only way any team wins that many rings. That's the big secret lol.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 04:21 PM
I understand all of this and mostly agree, but you still have Kareem and Magic top 10, right? He doesn't have to pass those two to be top 10, right? I think you're really underrating how good Durant is and the fact that is if they go on to win 4-5 championships that he is going to be an enormous reason why.

You can't say in one breath that Durant is a top 3 player and then in the next say well, I'm not sure how much he has to do with them winning. I get that you don't like his decision but it doesn't change the reality of how good he is. They were better without him last year, and this year when he got hurt. That's not because he isn't great or helpful, but simply because they have been together for years and he just got there. Here's the scary thought - how good are they going to be when he catches up? When he has chemistry with them on a high level and they all learn to play better together? That's when it's really going to be ****ed up.

Look at Miami in year 1 vs year 2. It wasn't just that they got better role players, but those three had to learn how to play together like any stars who are used to doing more. Durant is coming from super ISO land with Westbrook to this GS system, it's gonna take him that year. This year, Curry and Durant have been in that weird area like LeBron and Wade were in year 1 where they're producing because they're great vs really being in sync together. Next year and beyond? Yeah, that's when it's going to get nuts. They may even break that 73-win record, who knows?

And it's not like he isn't great already. I mean, maybe yesterday was the worst 25 point, 11 rebound, 7 assist, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover on 6-13/0-4/13-15 type game that has ever been played. I don't know, I kinda doubt it. You can try to ignore that he's still a top 4 player in the game, again shout out to Kawhi, but the reality is that he is. If not for him getting hurt, him finishing top 5 in MVP voting instead of Curry seemed automatic.

You're downplaying the reality that Durant is on the same level as Curry. That he may win another MVP or two with this team. That him winning Finals MVP is not an outlandish thought, even this year when he isn't even fully up to speed yet. Thinking that he's just going to blend in and be along for the ride is not very level headed, IMO.



Listen, let's not confuse the level between Durant and Westbrook based on these metric things. There's a reason why Durant carried them at a 62-win pace over those 25 games when WB was hurt in 13-14 and why when Durant got hurt the next year they went 22-18 in games that WB played without him. That's a 45-win pace. You know, kind of like what they did this year. They played 35 total games in 13-14 with Durant and no WB and the Thunder went 24-11, a a 56-win pace over 82. 11 wins is a hell of a difference, especially as you get higher in win total. Just because these advanced stats can't measure something this simple doesn't mean it's not true, or obvious.

Westbrook has too many negative plays to compare him to Durant directly. Way too many bad shots. Way too many bad turnovers. Way too many defensive possessions where he floats and does nothing despite being an incredibly gifted defender when he is engaged.

All of these things add up and while his pros definitely outweigh his cons, Durant's top notch efficient play in all areas except turnovers at times was a huge part in making up for it. I didn't say that WB didn't help the Thunder win, of course he did. What I said was that Westbrook always held Durant back between his insane ball dominance not warranted by his lack of efficiency and that so much of Durant's high efficiency went towards making up for WB.

I agree that Durant was not absolved from blame, especially in that WCF collapse because they collapsed together, but overall he was the clear driving force to their success. Much in the same way that Wade and Bosh still had plenty to do with Miami's success while plenty of LeBron's fans try to severely downplay that.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html

Again, I point to this Finals. The difference in this Finals is not that LeBron had some big advantage over Durant or Wade over WB. It's very clearly comparing the players from 3 down for each team. Where is the context for that? All I see is people severely downplaying how amazing and stacked those Miami teams were.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206210MIA.html

Look at this box score in the clinching game 5 and tell me what is not GS-esque about that Miami team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206190MIA.html

Look at this 6 point loss in game 4 where Durant and WB were severely let down by James Harden being outscored 25-8 by Mario Chalmers. Again, 3 starters scoring 25 for Miami and one wasn't even Bosh.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206140OKC.html

Game 2, there's Shane Battier raining thunder and outscoring Ibaka, Thabo, Perkins and Fisher 17-16 by himself. KD, WB, Harden? 80 points. LeBron, Wade, Bosh? 72 points.

You want to talk about context but then act like Miami didn't have a severe advantage over teams in talent like GS does? I don't know, it's hard for me to take that serious.

They clearly did vs OKC, who after their trio basically had guys who might as well have not been there on offense. Harden was terrible failing to score 10 points in 3 of the 5 games. So was Ibaka, and OKC's general lack of experience as a really young team hurt them.

Against San Antonio they were a Bosh OREB and Ray Allen 3 from losing. They won 2 rings and deserved both, as any team deserves their championship, but context is remembering that they were 1 REB away from going 1-3 in the Finals when they had all the talent in the world. And talk about injuries, remember that Parker got hurt in that Finals after dominating in game 1. In their game 6 and 7 losses, Parker went 6-23 in a 3 point OT loss that needed that GT 3, and 3-12 in a 7 point loss. Think that hamstring also played a factor in their championship?

Context seems to be forgotten in history, because nobody seems to care about the advantages that LeBron had because he played great. Just like no one is going to care about Durant's, because he is also going to play great. There's that saying, and it definitely holds true in sports - history is written by the winners.



I get all that, but again I think you simply are punishing Durant more for having an opportunity that LeBron didn't have. I focus more on their mentality, which was the same. LeBron didn't know that Miami was going to underachieve like they did. Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six. Those were the words from his own mouth, right? If LeBron was a FA in 2016 and was looking at those Warriors, guess where LeBron is going? Miami underachieved, it doesn't mean that they didn't have a huge talent advantage over everyone because they clearly did.

Does Durant have more of an advantage? Yes, but again expectations are relative right? If GS goes 2-2 the next four years like Miami did, that's a far bigger underachievement even if they are more dominant than Miami was in their two wins. If this GS team wins 4-5 rings, as they should barring any major injury or cap induced roster explosion, then they deserve that credit. You can't punish one team for winning on that level when the other teams in history to do so, the 90's Bulls, the 80's Lakers, the 60's Celtics and the 50's Lakers, were all just as insanely talented relative to their league. That's the only way any team wins that many rings. That's the big secret lol.

I didn't say Westy is better than Durant I simply pointed out their playoff and overall impact recently. I won't just ignore the data/evidence because you disagree. I agree Westy makes way more dumb plays but he is also asked to carry the heavier creating load which leads to doing more in general (and teams packed the paint on him then like they do now).

I am not sure RS win totals are everything but we can agree Durant is better than Westbrook, he just hasn't clearly been in the playoffs over that time. GS is a few wins worse with Durant lol so again not sure about us going that route (look at Cle when Lebron left, 45 wins is amazing in comparison). While you say Westbrook is holding back Durant individually I say he is carrying and creating for the rest of the team which Durant didn't do. If that hurt Durant I guess it's unfortunate but again the stats seem to show the team as a whole was a bit better with Westy than Durant these last couple years. It seems we just see things a little different as in I don't just blame Westy for having to create that much given how passive Durant normally was and never took that responsibility (personally I think it is a weakness in his game, he is a get mine in the flow type of player imo). He has some big issues/questions too is all I am pointing out and it is evidence when you choose to look at the entire picture. Again I am not saying question it in comparison to Westy being better but if the numbers do show that I certainly question all of a sudden bumping him to top 10 for joining this group (of which the core has won already and set a wins record, maybe thats a better way to word it). Again we don't know how it plays out but this team has a lot of credit to be handed out and he seems to be 3rd in impact in year 1 overall to me.

I can say they can win without him given that this core at a younger age and having improved since actually did win a title. They were favored before signing him this year. They have been winning at a great rate without him as well. Sure there is no guarantee but even with him you can argue that despite the crazy odds. Anything is technically possible but based off what we know and have seen this team would be right at/near the top either way. To me you want to give him credit for simply jumping on that ship and I just don't get why that's impressive. It isn't about the accolades, it is about the context/how.

I can cover the miami stuff and perception again if you really want but you are just using revisionist history to claim something that wasn't the perception/belief at the time. Thunder were favored heading in to finals, Lakers were favored going into the 2011 playoffs over miami along with the psd rankings I mentioned multiple times before on players etc. etc. We have been over this a ton and it just wasn't seen like GS now and rightfully so (and I even went into how Miami was an overreaction to begin with). TBH you say it is hard to take me seriously but you just continue to write off the actual evidence I bring and are propping series/single game stats after the fact instead. I find that way harder to take seriously, to me you are trying to twist things as hard as possible to make your case when reality is these situations were much different.

Whether we look at odds, perception at the time, the history of teams (GS winning title, setting 73 win record before/without Durant), the impact each individual made/had (GS is cruising with Durant as 3rd biggest impact on team, Lebron carried the Heat to their heights as clear top guy) it all helps my case. I am not punishing Durant, I am just not giving him credit for hopping onto this situation which again is much different. I have said before if he achieves in a similar manner to Lebron individually he will get similar credit, you seem to have an issue with that standard? Just getting titles simply isn't enough, again this is a core that has done it without him already and they are hitting their peak together. To me we would be changing the standard of judging players for Durant if we ranked him like you seem to want to simply for choosing GS.

valade16
05-05-2017, 04:49 PM
^ That's another good point Gopher. Whatever the perception was of whose team it was (many were saying it was Wade's team before the season since Bron joined the Heat) prior to the season, James demonstrated he was clearly the best player on the team and it became James' team.

If Durant had joined and made it his team we would all be giving him such credit, but he played off Steph and in the playoffs it's been very obvious it's Steph's team and he is the main man. Heck, KD has been outplayed and is less valuable than Draymond Green.

Redrum187
05-05-2017, 04:51 PM
If he leads the Warriors to a title, he doesn't get much credit from me.

WARNING: Childish statement coming!

I'd still dislike him and his morbidly obese mother. It made me feel so much joy watching him cry and hug his Goodyear blimp of a mother back in 2011 when Dirk and the Mavericks eliminated him in the WCF.

WaDe03
05-05-2017, 04:56 PM
If he leads the Warriors to a title, he doesn't get much credit from me.

WARNING: Childish statement coming!

I'd still dislike him and his morbidly obese mother. It made me feel so much joy watching him cry and hug his Goodyear blimp of a mother back in 2011 when Dirk and the Mavericks eliminated him in the WCF.

How did you feel in 2012 when Wade and LeBron sent him to his mother?

Hawkeye15
05-05-2017, 05:05 PM
If he leads the Warriors to a title, he doesn't get much credit from me.

WARNING: Childish statement coming!

I'd still dislike him and his morbidly obese mother. It made me feel so much joy watching him cry and hug his Goodyear blimp of a mother back in 2011 when Dirk and the Mavericks eliminated him in the WCF.

fairly childish, don't you think..

that actually cracked me up. No wonder KD is so damn skinny, by the time Mom was done eating, nutin' but scraps left

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 05:59 PM
^ That's another good point Gopher. Whatever the perception was of whose team it was (many were saying it was Wade's team before the season since Bron joined the Heat) prior to the season, James demonstrated he was clearly the best player on the team and it became James' team.

If Durant had joined and made it his team we would all be giving him such credit, but he played off Steph and in the playoffs it's been very obvious it's Steph's team and he is the main man. Heck, KD has been outplayed and is less valuable than Draymond Green.

I think Curry was on track to be the up and coming legend more so than Durant before this tbh. I would choose him to run things over Durant personally although it was only the last two years of proof so would have liked to see a little more to be sure. To me he is the most likely to be seen as the man on this team but if that happens I actually think Durant kinda hurt his legacy because then he does become more of that Scottie/Hondo/next to Lebron version of Wade which won't get him in or even just outside that top 10 probably.

We have to wait and see how it plays out like we keep saying, but ya being the 3rd most valuable on the team so far this year isn't helping that wait and see approach. Luckily for him he just has to show up for 1 series given the situation though.

valade16
05-05-2017, 06:13 PM
I think Curry was on track to be the up and coming legend more so than Durant before this tbh. I would choose him to run things over Durant personally although it was only the last two years of proof so would have liked to see a little more to be sure. To me he is the most likely to be seen as the man on this team but if that happens I actually think Durant kinda hurt his legacy because then he does become more of that Scottie/Hondo/next to Lebron version of Wade which won't get him in or even just outside that top 10 probably.

We have to wait and see how it plays out like we keep saying, but ya being the 3rd most valuable on the team so far this year isn't helping that wait and see approach. Luckily for him he just has to show up for 1 series given the situation though.

Yeah the problem with Durant ever reaching top 10 status is he has to not only knockout one or two of the 11 guys generally considered top 10 (MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kobe), he also likely has to surpass Curry to get there (or knockout a 3rd guy so both get there).

Because short of Curry suffering some catastrophic injury or getting drastically outplayed by KD I can't envision a scenario where they win together and Durant ends up higher all-time than Curry. So how good will the Warriors have to be to knock out 3 of the generally considered top 10 guys currently? Likely very, very good.

LOb0
05-05-2017, 06:41 PM
This will be the most meaningless ring for a top 5 current player in NBA history.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 07:18 PM
I didn't say Westy is better than Durant I simply pointed out their playoff and overall impact recently. I won't just ignore the data/evidence because you disagree. I agree Westy makes way more dumb plays but he is also asked to carry the heavier creating load which leads to doing more in general (and teams packed the paint on him then like they do now).

I am not sure RS win totals are everything but we can agree Durant is better than Westbrook, he just hasn't clearly been in the playoffs over that time. GS is a few wins worse with Durant lol so again not sure about us going that route (look at Cle when Lebron left, 45 wins is amazing in comparison). While you say Westbrook is holding back Durant individually I say he is carrying and creating for the rest of the team which Durant didn't do. If that hurt Durant I guess it's unfortunate but again the stats seem to show the team as a whole was a bit better with Westy than Durant these last couple years. It seems we just see things a little different as in I don't just blame Westy for having to create that much given how passive Durant normally was and never took that responsibility (personally I think it is a weakness in his game, he is a get mine in the flow type of player imo). He has some big issues/questions too is all I am pointing out and it is evidence when you choose to look at the entire picture. Again I am not saying question it in comparison to Westy being better but if the numbers do show that I certainly question all of a sudden bumping him to top 10 for joining this group (of which the core has won already and set a wins record, maybe thats a better way to word it). Again we don't know how it plays out but this team has a lot of credit to be handed out and he seems to be 3rd in impact in year 1 overall to me.

I can say they can win without him given that this core at a younger age and having improved since actually did win a title. They were favored before signing him this year. They have been winning at a great rate without him as well. Sure there is no guarantee but even with him you can argue that despite the crazy odds. Anything is technically possible but based off what we know and have seen this team would be right at/near the top either way. To me you want to give him credit for simply jumping on that ship and I just don't get why that's impressive. It isn't about the accolades, it is about the context/how.

I can cover the miami stuff and perception again if you really want but you are just using revisionist history to claim something that wasn't the perception/belief at the time. Thunder were favored heading in to finals, Lakers were favored going into the 2011 playoffs over miami along with the psd rankings I mentioned multiple times before on players etc. etc. We have been over this a ton and it just wasn't seen like GS now and rightfully so (and I even went into how Miami was an overreaction to begin with). TBH you say it is hard to take me seriously but you just continue to write off the actual evidence I bring and are propping series/single game stats after the fact instead. I find that way harder to take seriously, to me you are trying to twist things as hard as possible to make your case when reality is these situations were much different.

Whether we look at odds, perception at the time, the history of teams (GS winning title, setting 73 win record before/without Durant), the impact each individual made/had (GS is cruising with Durant as 3rd biggest impact on team, Lebron carried the Heat to their heights as clear top guy) it all helps my case. I am not punishing Durant, I am just not giving him credit for hopping onto this situation which again is much different. I have said before if he achieves in a similar manner to Lebron individually he will get similar credit, you seem to have an issue with that standard? Just getting titles simply isn't enough, again this is a core that has done it without him already and they are hitting their peak together. To me we would be changing the standard of judging players for Durant if we ranked him like you seem to want to simply for choosing GS.

Man, I don't know how a passive player can average 35 PTS and 6.3 AST over 26 games and 32 PPG and 5.5 AST for the season, but if Durant can do that being passive? Then you know what, he's pretty ****ing good. lol

I don't know why you're saying I'm bumping him to top 10 just for joining this group. I also don't get why you think he's gonna just blend into this small role or something. He was leading the team in scoring before he got hurt. You're saying I'm pointing out small samples but are using this postseason where he's missed two games, is still recovering from injury and clearly is more focused on getting back in game shape/rhythm while preparing for the WCF and Finals as some sort of barometer of him not being that important. On that note, I don't see how 3 of the 5 games of the 2012 Finals is a small sample. It's 60% the a series and it's very evident of why Miami beat OKC. It's not because of the top duos for each team, but clearly the rest for each.

You can say the reaction to Miami was an overreaction, but really it wasn't. To say that now is to just acknowledge that they underachieved. They should have 3peated, we know this is a fact because we have hindsight. We know that 3peating is super rare. So rare that the 80's Lakers who went to 8 Finals and won 5 couldn't do it. Neither could the 80's Celtics, who went to 5 Finals and won 3. They were in line for really exclusive company from day 1, so how was it an overreaction? That sounds like a revisionist excuse, in my opinion.

Were the Lakers title favorites over Miami heading into that postseason? Maybe, I'll take your word on that. At the beginning season though, where was Miami? Who was in the Finals? Why did Miami lose? The Lakers won 57-games, tied for 4th best in the league with Dallas. Miami was 3rd with 58 while having the highest margin of victory in the league. Really, the only reason why any hype cooled on them, is because they got off to a slow start and overall had a disappointing regular season as a result. Also, LeBron never won anything and the Lakers were the 2-time defending champs. That all makes sense. Doesn't change the fact that they should have ultimately won the Finals, like everyone thought once they got together.

OKC was favored, I remember that. Not by a whole lot, but yes slightly favored. Still doesn't change the fact that James Harden was more the reason they than LeBron James. If LeBron greatly outplayed or shut down Durant or something like that, sure. You also conveniently ignored what I pointed out about each teams depth. Miami was clearly far deeper than OKC, who was legit a super top heavy team. Miami had Chalmers and Miller drop 20+ points that series for them, never mind that Bosh played far, far better than Harden.

If GS wins this year and Curry/Durant and LeBron/Irving play fairly even, are you not going to point out GS's depth being the reason more than anything LeBron did or didn't do? In that thinking, we shouldn't ignore that Kyrie Irving outplayed Steph Curry last year in the Finals, right? Idk, these discussions to me always feel like everyone downplays LeBron's teams and plays up the rest.

Maybe LeBron's idea of winning 7 or more rings was an overreaction, but I don't remember anyone realistically thinking of that. And at their ages, why couldn't that have been a thing? What age was Jordan when he won his first? It's not like Pippen didn't start breaking down during the 2nd 3peat with back injuries or anything, right? Wade recovered pretty decently from the 2015 postseason, he hasn't been terrible or anything the last three years. I mean with Bosh, yeah this stuff obviously would have put a halt to that idea, but why did he have to jump ship? Because they got the worst beating in the Finals in over 40 years?

Is Durant's decision in 2016 worse, or more soft or whatever, than LeBron's in 2010? Yeah, I guess you can say that. But what about LeBron in 2014? What about Durant in 2016 vs LeBron in 2010 + 2014 combined? If Jordan demanded a trade from the Bulls after they lost to Orlando, would that have been cool? Probably not. Good thing we never have to think about that, cause it would never happen.

You keep pointing to how much better GS is than Miami in 2010, and I keep saying the same thing. Miami only won twice, right? So, if GS wins four times, what's the difference? Are you going to try and tell me that their advantage over the league is twice as good as Miami's was? Do you think GS could have won 4 rings from now without Durant? I don't think so, cause their advantage is not on that level in history. Maybe they could have been like Miami, and won 2 of 4. Their choke last year could be their 2011, if you will. But winning 3 more from 2015? Eh, I don't know about that.

I think you're really downplaying how hard that is in history and maybe how good this GS team was. Klay Thompson wasn't particularly good in last years Finals. Green was terrible last year, bricking open 3 after open 3, until he Finally found pay dirt in game 7. They both sucked in 2015. Iguodala is really old and so is Livingston. Their effectiveness is heading out one way or the other, and Livingston is already gone. Bogut died and Zaza has been a decent replacement but certainly not a long term answer. I guess they would have kept Barnes, but on that team how well did he fit? Did we have to see him brick a ton of open 3's in the Finals again to question that?

This all started from you saying that this keeps Durant from ever being top 15 for you all time. To me, that was just way too definitive a statement when he very realistically can end up with 4-5 rings, 2-3 MVPs, 2-3 Finals MVPS, 12-14 All-NBA teams and end up with 35,000 or so points. If he does all of that, are you really going to say he's not a top 15 player of all time? That's all I reacted to. And if you wanna think that Durant is some passive, not that high impact of a player or whatever? That's cool.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 07:21 PM
This will be the most meaningless ring for a top 5 current player in NBA history.

What if Durant averaged 30 PPG, 8 REB, 5 AST in the Finals and won Finals MVP? What do you think, still meaningless?

valade16
05-05-2017, 07:26 PM
You can say the reaction to Miami was an overreaction, but really it wasn't. To say that now is to just acknowledge that they underachieved. They should have 3peated, we know this is a fact because we have hindsight. We know that 3peating is super rare. So rare that the 80's Lakers who went to 8 Finals and won 5 couldn't do it. Neither could the 80's Celtics, who went to 5 Finals and won 3. They were in line for really exclusive company from day 1, so how was it an overreaction? That sounds like a revisionist excuse, in my opinion.

I agree. The Heat undoubtedly under-achieved compared to their expectations. I think the vast majority of people would have taken the over on "will the Heat win more than 2 titles"?

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 07:33 PM
This thread in general is way too premature. Durant is 28, he has a whole lot of career left so at least let the next 3-5 years play out before you try to gauge his place in all-time rankings. Do people really not remember some people saying the same stuff about LeBron? Oh, he's this and that. His rings won't count. He'll never be top 5 player because of this. Blah blah blah.

Let's see what happens. Kevin Durant is good at basketball and he may just surprise some of you.

FOXHOUND
05-05-2017, 07:35 PM
I agree. The Heat undoubtedly under-achieved compared to their expectations. I think the vast majority of people would have taken the over on "will the Heat win more than 2 titles"?

Yup, and Golden State could very well do the same. I mean I doubt it, but who the hell thought that Dirk with zero All-Stars would beat LeBron, Wade and Bosh? lol.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 07:45 PM
Man, I don't know how a passive player can average 35 PTS and 6.3 AST over 26 games and 32 PPG and 5.5 AST for the season, but if Durant can do that being passive? Then you know what, he's pretty ****ing good. lol

I don't know why you're saying I'm bumping him to top 10 just for joining this group. I also don't get why you think he's gonna just blend into this small role or something. He was leading the team in scoring before he got hurt. You're saying I'm pointing out small samples but are using this postseason where he's missed two games, is still recovering from injury and clearly is more focused on getting back in game shape/rhythm while preparing for the WCF and Finals as some sort of barometer of him not being that important. On that note, I don't see how 3 of the 5 games of the 2012 Finals is a small sample. It's 60% the a series and it's very evident of why Miami beat OKC. It's not because of the top duos for each team, but clearly the rest for each.

You can say the reaction to Miami was an overreaction, but really it wasn't. To say that now is to just acknowledge that they underachieved. They should have 3peated, we know this is a fact because we have hindsight. We know that 3peating is super rare. So rare that the 80's Lakers who went to 8 Finals and won 5 couldn't do it. Neither could the 80's Celtics, who went to 5 Finals and won 3. They were in line for really exclusive company from day 1, so how was it an overreaction? That sounds like a revisionist excuse, in my opinion.

Were the Lakers title favorites over Miami heading into that postseason? Maybe, I'll take your word on that. At the beginning season though, where was Miami? Who was in the Finals? Why did Miami lose? The Lakers won 57-games, tied for 4th best in the league with Dallas. Miami was 3rd with 58 while having the highest margin of victory in the league. Really, the only reason why any hype cooled on them, is because they got off to a slow start and overall had a disappointing regular season as a result. Also, LeBron never won anything and the Lakers were the 2-time defending champs. That all makes sense. Doesn't change the fact that they should have ultimately should have won the Finals, like everyone thought once they got together.

OKC was favored, I remember that. Not by a whole lot, but yes slightly favored. Still doesn't change the fact that James Harden was more the reason they lost not over LeBron James. If LeBron greatly outplayed or shut down Durant or something like that, sure. You also conveniently ignored what I pointed out about each teams depth. Miami was clearly far deeper than OKC, who was legit a super top heavy team. Miami had Chalmers and Miller drop 20+ points that series for them, never mind that Bosh played far, far better than Harden.

If GS wins this year and Curry/Durant and LeBron/Irving play fairly even, are you not going to point out GS's depth being the reason more than anything LeBron did or didn't do? In that thinking, we shouldn't ignore that Kyrie Irving outplayed Steph Curry last year in the Finals, right? Idk, these discussions to me always feel like everyone downplays LeBron's teams and plays up the rest.

Maybe LeBron's idea of winning 7 or more rings was an overreaction, but I don't remember anyone realistically thinking of that. And at their ages, why couldn't that have been a thing? What age was Jordan when he won his first? It's not like Pippen didn't start breaking down during the 2nd 3peat with back injuries or anything, right? Wade recovered pretty decently from the 2015 postseason, he hasn't been terrible or anything the last three years. I mean with Bosh, yeah this stuff obviously would have put a halt to that idea, but why did he have to jump ship? Because they got the worst beating in the Finals in over 40 years?

Is Durant's decision in 2016 worse, or more soft or whatever, than LeBron's in 2010? Yeah, I guess you can say that. But what about LeBron in 2014? What about Durant in 2016 vs LeBron in 2010 + 2014 combined? If Jordan demanded a trade from the Bulls after they lost to Orlando, would that have been cool? Probably not. Good thing we never have to think about that, cause it would never happen.

You keep pointing to how much better GS is than Miami in 2010, and I keep saying the same thing. Miami only won twice, right? So, if GS wins four times, what's the difference? Are you going to try and tell me that their advantage over the league is twice as good as Miami's was? Do you think GS could have won 4 rings from now without Durant? I don't think so, cause their advantage is not on that level in history. Maybe they could have been like Miami, and won 2 of 4. Their choke last year could be their 2011, if you will. But winning 3 more from 2015? Eh, I don't know about that.

I think you're really downplaying how hard that is in history and maybe how good this GS team was. Klay Thompson wasn't particularly good in last years Finals. Green was terrible last year, bricking open 3 after open 3, until he Finally found pay dirt in game 7. They both sucked in 2015. Iguodala is really old and so is Livingston. Their effectiveness is heading out one way or the other, and Livingston is already gone. Bogut died and Zaza has been a decent replacement but certainly not a long term answer. I guess they would have kept Barnes, but on that team how well did he fit? Did we have to see him brick a ton of open 3's in the Finals again to question that?

This all started from you saying that this probably keeps Durant from ever being top 15 for you all time. To me, that was just way too definitive a statement when he very realistically can end up with 4-5 rings, 2-3 MVPs, 2-3 Finals MVPS, 12-14 All-NBA teams and end up with 35,000 or so points. If he does all of that, are you really going to say he's not a top 15 player of all time? That's all I reacted to. And if you wanna think that Durant is some passive, not that high impact of a player or whatever? That's cool.

Alright I will have to go back to that old thread and find the old posts with the info since you wanna revisit that topic. I think I'll have to respond tomorrow in that sense but you are saying these guys aren't good enough because how they played in one series. Who cares if Ibaka was DPOY type guy and if the following year all 3 were top 10 in MVP award votes. The talent just wasn't there because they didn't show up big enough in one series. Despite the odds/perception/obvious talent we can clearly see now even if you didn't believe then etc. That is what I mean about saying these teams were as far apart (or close) as GS to the league now, in reality you are using an underperforming series and reaching hardcore to twist how things were really seen and the talent they had. All I have been using these as examples of is to counter you continuing to ignore the major differences in situations, that is it. This GS team is in a different league and most get that and everything I mention points to that. Before FA this year GS had similar odds as Miami when Lebron joined to win the title. THEN Durant joined on for the ride once they already had that edge, not being the driving force to make them top contender like Lebron. Again though if you want to not agree to disagree here I can go back and bring in all the odds talk etc in another post.

For the record I think Durant was fantastic in the run, you are making an argument out of something I agree with you on for the most part it seems (besides what I mention above). Since then though his playoff level has dropped off, that looks more like a great single run than his constant level in the playoffs. All the questions and points I bring up about his impact/stats compared to others only further these questions. That has been my point he has major questions if we are gonna say he is an all time talent. I am not saying he has never performed at a high level, I am saying he hasn't done anything close to showing top 10 level guy on the regular and just adding rings to what he has shown just because of his situation isn't impressive.

I think GS is over the barrier where it is impressive just to win and they are now expected to win and that is a major difference. When we talk about other teams we are saying they have like a 25-40% chance coming in, they might win but it isn't as likely and it isn't expected (aka more likely than not). They aren't just favored over the entire group and over twice as likely to win as the next team etc. We just don't see that or the crazy odds, except with this GS team because again they were like the HEAT before Durant came according to the odds/perception. Like I said I am not sure how impressive things will be for them until we see it happen but unless we truly do see the greatest team ever I just don't know how much credit they can get individually. Especially Durant if he is never that top guy that Curry seems to be and if Draymond continues to play at such a high level.

I will have to respond more in depth late tonight or tomorrow but the basic point isn't to say Durant sucks and is totally unproven, just that in the context of top 15 or 10 he hasn't shown it yet in his career. Given that the team he is on had similar odds to win as that Miami team BEFORE he even joined (or as I have been saying in other terms a team capable of winning title/RS records without him), adding titles is not enough to change where I rank him. He needs to be dominant, lead the team to levels like that finals run in the playoffs on the regular etc.

mngopher35
05-05-2017, 07:49 PM
This thread in general is way too premature. Durant is 28, he has a whole lot of career left so at least let the next 3-5 years play out before you try to gauge his place in all-time rankings. Do people really not remember some people saying the same stuff about LeBron? Oh, he's this and that. His rings won't count. He'll never be top 5 player because of this. Blah blah blah.

Let's see what happens. Kevin Durant is good at basketball and he may just surprise some of you.

I do but these are very different situations, I was also the one back then saying it was an overreaction lol. It is tough dealing with perception but I just remembered that being a main point before and how long I tried to argue against it being the same anyways.

I agree he might surprise us by doing many of the things I have listed. If he doesn't but still gets 6 rings I won't just push him up my list is what I am getting at. He has to start showing that higher level on the regular and I will be both surprised and willing to give him that credit.

FlashBolt
05-05-2017, 10:03 PM
Look, if you seriously still think Durant going to the Warriors is of the same magnitude as LeBron going on to create his OWN team, you aren't thinking clearly. The principles aren't even the same. Heat weren't winning anything before LeBron got there. Neither was Bosh. The only guy who was leading his team to a high win % and deep in the playoffs was LeBron. Durant is going to a team that doesn't need him. If you keep saying the Warriors need him, you are mistaken. Overall, they are still the best team without Durant. They would and should have won last year - and that's why even LeBron-haters have to acknowledge that LeBron deserves props for carrying that Cavs team in the Finals.

Durant's ring is meaningless to me unless he becomes the best player in the Finals and his teammates sucked. Other than that, I'm not giving a guy credit for a ring when they never needed the guy to begin with. Btw, how would some of you felt about LeBron had after 2015, he went on to join the Warriors? Are you kidding me? I would never respect the guy for that. I wouldn't care how many rings he won, either.

WaDe03
05-05-2017, 10:42 PM
What if Durant averaged 30 PPG, 8 REB, 5 AST in the Finals and won Finals MVP? What do you think, still meaningless?

Yea he should average those numbers with the guys he has around him. Teams can't even really set their defense for just him or him and another guy or 2 they have to set for a stacked *** team top to bottom. Meaningless, idc what numbers he puts up.

GREATNESS ONE
05-05-2017, 10:46 PM
This will be the most meaningless ring for a top 5 current player in NBA history.

Yes because Lebron, leaving his team and joining two top 10 players is different. Hilarious! So amusing how bias people are, what the **** happened to Basketball....

WaDe03
05-05-2017, 10:51 PM
Yes because Lebron, leaving his team and joining two top 10 players is different. Hilarious! So amusing how bias people are, what the **** happened to Basketball....

You've got to chill with this nonsense. It's not even close to the same. He joined the best player in the world in Wade and Bosh and they were surrounded by bad players.

Durant was also the 2nd best player in the world and joined another top 5 guy and 2 other guys who are top 3 at their position with a stacked *** supporting cast that just went 73-9 and that he choked a playoff series to. It's not close

LOb0
05-05-2017, 10:58 PM
What if Durant averaged 30 PPG, 8 REB, 5 AST in the Finals and won Finals MVP? What do you think, still meaningless?

Absolutely. He's on a team that won 73 games. He should win the MVP with ease.

valade16
05-05-2017, 11:02 PM
Does the fact the Warriors beat the Thunder in the playoffs factor into your perception? Like, what if LeBron had left the Cavaliers to join the Celtics in 2010 instead of the Heat? Joining KG, Pierce and Allen after they eliminated his Cavs. Would that have been different in your eyes?

FlashBolt
05-05-2017, 11:15 PM
Does the fact the Warriors beat the Thunder in the playoffs factor into your perception? Like, what if LeBron had left the Cavaliers to join the Celtics in 2010 instead of the Heat? Joining KG, Pierce and Allen after they eliminated his Cavs. Would that have been different in your eyes?

The crazy part is that still doesn't even add up. That Celtics squad was great but their core players were past their prime. This Warriors team is AT their prime. Curry+Klay+Green are probably having their best peak years. We're talking about a prime KG+Ray+PP+LeBron because if you think about it, that Celtics squad, if everyone was at their peak, would be better than the Warriors.

lol, please
05-06-2017, 12:36 AM
What if Durant averaged 30 PPG, 8 REB, 5 AST in the Finals and won Finals MVP? What do you think, still meaningless?

Well said.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 02:22 AM
I do but these are very different situations, I was also the one back then saying it was an overreaction lol. It is tough dealing with perception but I just remembered that being a main point before and how long I tried to argue against it being the same anyways.

I agree he might surprise us by doing many of the things I have listed. If he doesn't but still gets 6 rings I won't just push him up my list is what I am getting at. He has to start showing that higher level on the regular and I will be both surprised and willing to give him that credit.

Always fun debating with you, gopher. :cheers:

Oddly enough, I think we're thinking the same thing.

A) He has to win a lot of rings.

B) He has to play great while doing so.

We obviously view things differently in general, but with Durant I think we're just on opposite ends of our belief in him being able to accomplish both of those feats. I'm with you on this, if he wins a lot of rings but doesn't play great enough then no that's not going to get him top 10.

Let's see what happens, it's an important moment in NBA history even if it's predictability is boring. Let's just remember one thing - no one saw the Warriors coming at the level they did. Maybe it's Milwaukee, maybe it's someone else, but you never know who might raise up and challenge them. For entertainments sake, let's hope we at least have great WCF and Finals series the next few years lol.

LOb0
05-06-2017, 02:25 AM
Yes because Lebron, leaving his team and joining two top 10 players is different. Hilarious! So amusing how bias people are, what the **** happened to Basketball....

Bosh was top 10? He caught Wade in the decline. Bron didn't join a 73 win team.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 02:29 AM
Yea he should average those numbers with the guys he has around him. Teams can't even really set their defense for just him or him and another guy or 2 they have to set for a stacked *** team top to bottom. Meaningless, idc what numbers he puts up.


Absolutely. He's on a team that won 73 games. He should win the MVP with ease.

Haha, fair enough guys. I don't think this is going to be his year to do so, between not being 100% and still getting acclimated with everything, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did and expect him to in the future. We'll see.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 02:31 AM
Bosh was top 10? He caught Wade in the decline. Bron didn't join a 73 win team.

Bron didn't join a 73-win but he also only won 2 rings with his first super squad. If GS wins 4 or more rings, I think that's a relative thing of note in that comparison. I'll say 4 because Miami really should have won 3.

nastynice
05-06-2017, 02:32 AM
LeBron deserves far more criticism in how he did it and KD deserves more criticism for what he did.

Thats fair

I get that one was an already formed team while the other was formed that summer, but both guys put themself in a position where they seemed to be part of something borderline unfair. The consensus best and third best player (with Kobe in between) plus a consensus top 15, possible top 10, all in what at the time seemed their primes, cmon, they didn't have that whole 8 ring show in Miami for no reason.

And now the Warriors (who btw have had a 31-15 or something like that record past 2 playoffs) championship caliber team (which is what everyone was calling Miami the day before lebron joined, cuz Wade and bosh signed) just added a top 5 player. yea it's diff in that he came to something already in place, but the idea behind the move is exactly the same. The moves not the same, but the feeling of ridiculous stackedness is

And lucky me, it happens to be my team :)

I know you Miami fans hear me.

At least the Cavs are closely stacked, the finals can really go either way. Hell, Rox n Spurs ain't slouches either

Saddletramp
05-06-2017, 04:43 AM
Thats fair

I get that one was an already formed team while the other was formed that summer, but both guys put themself in a position where they seemed to be part of something borderline unfair. The consensus best and third best player (with Kobe in between) plus a consensus top 15, possible top 10, all in what at the time seemed their primes, cmon, they didn't have that whole 8 ring show in Miami for no reason.

And now the Warriors (who btw have had a 31-15 or something like that record past 2 playoffs) championship caliber team (which is what everyone was calling Miami the day before lebron joined, cuz Wade and bosh signed) just added a top 5 player. yea it's diff in that he came to something already in place, but the idea behind the move is exactly the same. The moves not the same, but the feeling of ridiculous stackedness is

And lucky me, it happens to be my team :)

I know you Miami fans hear me.

At least the Cavs are closely stacked, the finals can really go either way. Hell, Rox n Spurs ain't slouches either

It's harder to start from scratch than it is to step into something that's already a proven winner.

Saddletramp
05-06-2017, 05:00 AM
Does the fact the Warriors beat the Thunder in the playoffs factor into your perception? Like, what if LeBron had left the Cavaliers to join the Celtics in 2010 instead of the Heat? Joining KG, Pierce and Allen after they eliminated his Cavs. Would that have been different in your eyes?

This was brought up last summer and would be more apropos to comparing Lebron and Durant (but like Flashbolt said, those guys were old). To compare what they did as equal is really ****ing stupid.


Another thing that's been bothering me reading through these posts (besides reading that Jordan woulda never left Chicago in FA......of course he never had a team where BJ Armstrong was his best teammate and Quin Buckner was the coach) is Lebron taking the easier route by staying in the East. He was drafted by his hometown team and played for them for 7 years and then teamed up with friends in one of the most attractive cities in the world where it just so happened that they had the cap space and will to make it happen. If the team was Portland or the Clippers then he woulda went West. And then he didn't leave them for just any old team, he went back home (that happened to be in the East) where the Cavs had been mediocre since he left. The Cavs weren't going deep in the playoffs before he came back, they had Irving and Tristan Thompson and Wiggins to keep or to dangle for a stud. Irving's great but TT, while doing certain things really well, isn't some All NBA all star or anything. Plus, you never know how all of these losers (Irving/TT/Love had zero playoff experience at that point) will develop in a deep playoff run situation.


And the quote "If LeBron was a FA in 2016 and was looking at those Warriors, guess where LeBron is going? Miami underachieved, it doesn't mean that they didn't have a huge talent advantage over everyone because they clearly did" is ****ing dumb. It's not the only quote that's ****ing dumb but it stands out a bit more than the rest.

nastynice
05-06-2017, 11:40 AM
It's harder to start from scratch than it is to step into something that's already a proven winner.

ok that's great. Makes no diff

lol, please
05-06-2017, 12:48 PM
Lebron literally coordinated with other stars to all land on the same team, attempting to put together a juggernaut contender.

"starting from scratch" is a team rebuilding from the bottom up.


LMAO @ that comparison.

:facepalm:

Mr. Fantastic would be jealous of such a reach.

Saddletramp
05-06-2017, 12:49 PM
ok that's great. Makes no diff

You just contradicted yourself. Not surprised.

Jamiecballer
05-06-2017, 12:49 PM
What if Durant averaged 30 PPG, 8 REB, 5 AST in the Finals and won Finals MVP? What do you think, still meaningless?
Not entirely, no, but close. He won't elevate his rep imo until he leaves GS or they drop from where they are rather dramatically. Fair or not fair.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Saddletramp
05-06-2017, 12:57 PM
Lebron literally coordinated with other stars to all land on the same team, attempting to put together a juggernaut contender.

"starting from scratch" is a team rebuilding from the bottom up.


LMAO @ that comparison.

:facepalm:

Mr. Fantastic would be jealous of such a reach.

Three guys that have always been "the man" anywhere they played all had to learn to gel together for the first time in their lives. That's on me though for assuming basic context would be understood on PSD.


And if we're talking about coordinated, it's funny how Iguodala played on a favored team to the Warriors and bolted for them as soon as he could all while rumors of him talking to GS during the series. Oh, and Durant's monumental choke job only to immediately bolt for them first chance he got. That's some fishy stuff. But some guys wanting to team up because their teams weren't being run correctly want to all play together and you have a problem?

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 01:24 PM
Man, I don't know how a passive player can average 35 PTS and 6.3 AST over 26 games and 32 PPG and 5.5 AST for the season, but if Durant can do that being passive? Then you know what, he's pretty ****ing good. lol

I don't know why you're saying I'm bumping him to top 10 just for joining this group. I also don't get why you think he's gonna just blend into this small role or something. He was leading the team in scoring before he got hurt. You're saying I'm pointing out small samples but are using this postseason where he's missed two games, is still recovering from injury and clearly is more focused on getting back in game shape/rhythm while preparing for the WCF and Finals as some sort of barometer of him not being that important. On that note, I don't see how 3 of the 5 games of the 2012 Finals is a small sample. It's 60% the a series and it's very evident of why Miami beat OKC. It's not because of the top duos for each team, but clearly the rest for each.

You can say the reaction to Miami was an overreaction, but really it wasn't. To say that now is to just acknowledge that they underachieved. They should have 3peated, we know this is a fact because we have hindsight. We know that 3peating is super rare. So rare that the 80's Lakers who went to 8 Finals and won 5 couldn't do it. Neither could the 80's Celtics, who went to 5 Finals and won 3. They were in line for really exclusive company from day 1, so how was it an overreaction? That sounds like a revisionist excuse, in my opinion.

Were the Lakers title favorites over Miami heading into that postseason? Maybe, I'll take your word on that. At the beginning season though, where was Miami? Who was in the Finals? Why did Miami lose? The Lakers won 57-games, tied for 4th best in the league with Dallas. Miami was 3rd with 58 while having the highest margin of victory in the league. Really, the only reason why any hype cooled on them, is because they got off to a slow start and overall had a disappointing regular season as a result. Also, LeBron never won anything and the Lakers were the 2-time defending champs. That all makes sense. Doesn't change the fact that they should have ultimately won the Finals, like everyone thought once they got together.

OKC was favored, I remember that. Not by a whole lot, but yes slightly favored. Still doesn't change the fact that James Harden was more the reason they than LeBron James. If LeBron greatly outplayed or shut down Durant or something like that, sure. You also conveniently ignored what I pointed out about each teams depth. Miami was clearly far deeper than OKC, who was legit a super top heavy team. Miami had Chalmers and Miller drop 20+ points that series for them, never mind that Bosh played far, far better than Harden.

If GS wins this year and Curry/Durant and LeBron/Irving play fairly even, are you not going to point out GS's depth being the reason more than anything LeBron did or didn't do? In that thinking, we shouldn't ignore that Kyrie Irving outplayed Steph Curry last year in the Finals, right? Idk, these discussions to me always feel like everyone downplays LeBron's teams and plays up the rest.

Maybe LeBron's idea of winning 7 or more rings was an overreaction, but I don't remember anyone realistically thinking of that. And at their ages, why couldn't that have been a thing? What age was Jordan when he won his first? It's not like Pippen didn't start breaking down during the 2nd 3peat with back injuries or anything, right? Wade recovered pretty decently from the 2015 postseason, he hasn't been terrible or anything the last three years. I mean with Bosh, yeah this stuff obviously would have put a halt to that idea, but why did he have to jump ship? Because they got the worst beating in the Finals in over 40 years?

Is Durant's decision in 2016 worse, or more soft or whatever, than LeBron's in 2010? Yeah, I guess you can say that. But what about LeBron in 2014? What about Durant in 2016 vs LeBron in 2010 + 2014 combined? If Jordan demanded a trade from the Bulls after they lost to Orlando, would that have been cool? Probably not. Good thing we never have to think about that, cause it would never happen.

You keep pointing to how much better GS is than Miami in 2010, and I keep saying the same thing. Miami only won twice, right? So, if GS wins four times, what's the difference? Are you going to try and tell me that their advantage over the league is twice as good as Miami's was? Do you think GS could have won 4 rings from now without Durant? I don't think so, cause their advantage is not on that level in history. Maybe they could have been like Miami, and won 2 of 4. Their choke last year could be their 2011, if you will. But winning 3 more from 2015? Eh, I don't know about that.

I think you're really downplaying how hard that is in history and maybe how good this GS team was. Klay Thompson wasn't particularly good in last years Finals. Green was terrible last year, bricking open 3 after open 3, until he Finally found pay dirt in game 7. They both sucked in 2015. Iguodala is really old and so is Livingston. Their effectiveness is heading out one way or the other, and Livingston is already gone. Bogut died and Zaza has been a decent replacement but certainly not a long term answer. I guess they would have kept Barnes, but on that team how well did he fit? Did we have to see him brick a ton of open 3's in the Finals again to question that?

This all started from you saying that this keeps Durant from ever being top 15 for you all time. To me, that was just way too definitive a statement when he very realistically can end up with 4-5 rings, 2-3 MVPs, 2-3 Finals MVPS, 12-14 All-NBA teams and end up with 35,000 or so points. If he does all of that, are you really going to say he's not a top 15 player of all time? That's all I reacted to. And if you wanna think that Durant is some passive, not that high impact of a player or whatever? That's cool.

Alright I can look back up the odds etc. and get into this more in depth now one last time hopefully. The key thing is that this GS is obviously in a different realm than these other teams you mention. To me when you stack the deck so far in your favor that it is drastically different than many other great teams we have seen (like Miami who you are trying to equate) I just don't think we should ignore that or twist/downplay the situation.

When it comes to that Thunder team like I said the following year they had all 3 guys top 10 in MVP voting. Ibaka was a DPOY that finals year (3rd year after). They were favored heading in as well so it isn't like most people did not see this talent. Everybody has bad series in their career etc so just because that happens does not take away from how talented a team/individual is just like that. To focus on such a small sample to make that point is definitely twisiting things and I think you know that. He might not have been MVP guy quite yet but these guys were all becoming that type of player and they had the added defensive force on top of the trio. Again if you want to say you personally liked miamis talent/depth more I have said that is fine every step, but comparing it to this GS situation is complete BS (by any of those standards outside of cherry picking one series to define a players talent level).

When it comes to the lakers before 2011 season when Heat joined up they had the best SG in the game according to PSD (top player), The best PF in the game according to PSD (tied 10th overall) and the #5 Center (not in top 10, used wrong list when I said he was 2 that was following year). On top of this they had Artest (10th on SF list) Odom/Fisher and an goat coach in Jackson. Coming off two titles this team was considered extremely talented/good at the time despite the downfall to come. Miami was a bit more top Heavy with #2/3 on top 10 list and Bosh at 4th PF (honestly though it's really not far off from those top 3 on lakers and thats without the depth/coaching factored in). http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?526914-1-PF-in-The-NBA-(Volume-3-Edition)&highlight=gasol

Again now lets look at the odds:
GS before getting Durant:3/2 or 40%
GS in July after move:2/3 or 60%
GS as of today:I see Vegas insiders at 3/1 but it looks like 66%-75% depending

Cavs in july after move:5/2 or 28.6%
Cavs as of today:I see Vegas insiders at 12/5 and overall it seems like they are generally around 25%-30% still.

(Percentages aren't like exact of course but it is the conversion of all these odds as an estimate type thing, basically to show how far different the situations are at least perception wise)

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/the-warriors-are-now-an-insane-2-3-favorite-to-win-2016-2017-nba-championship-070416

Cleveland despite being the pretty clear next best according to many is still drastically far behind GS. To try and just equate the situations as close like the situations you try for with Miami just doesn't match up at all. They are so different in basically any way you look at it. I have tried explaining it via their talent/fit, perception at the time, and odds of all situations now. You can keep saying you disagree or whatever but I have at least given a lot of evidence to back my point without much of the same in response (and no a bad game or series from a player won't negate their talent imo, that's reaching/cherry picking).

Just to make this clear for Miami in comparison:

Miami before Lebron had commited: hard to find, according to this site based off "lucky's" they were 7/1 or 12.5% (had been 25/1 before Wade/Bosh), Lucky's had them at 9/5 or 35.7% after his decision. https://lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jul/08/lebron-james-decision/
Miami before season: 6/5 or 45.5%

Lakers before season:3/2 or 40%

http://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/102610-updated-2011-nba-finals-odds-miami-heat-favored-by-oddsmakers (these aren't summer, I think it was more like 38% to 25% at that time which is in line with the Lucky's one but I can't find it so I used one from october). Generally the idea comes through for Miami, roughly similar odds to GS before Durant came, once they got him it isn't close anymore. This is why people keep making the point Lebron created a team where he was supposed to lead them to titles (like Curry was for GS last two years and moving forward). It was a great team that looked very capable of winning multiple titles just like GS did. Durant joining that type of team (Miami with Lebron or the GS team he did) to simply make such a big gap in talent is not impressive to me at all if they win.

http://www.nsawins.com/betting/nba/early-2010-2011-nba-championship-vegas-odds-and-predictions-miami-heat-the-favorite/ (just found this site which has Miami +185 and LA +305 which is pretty close to my "guesses" that I couldn't find, from July like Lucky's.

I get that you just totally think Miami was in some same league and you are allowed that opinion but in general most disagreed, the odds disagreed, and when you look at talent levels etc it is also quite clear. This GS team is like Miami BEFORE Durant chose to join. As bad as you think Lebron going to Miami was etc look at the odds/perception of others and realize/think about if Lebron had joined Miami... after a Lebron already joined Miami and they went 1/2 in the finals (not exactly the same of course but this is closer than comparing the situations straight up). If we are jumping both these guys to top 10 level for winning that is essentially what we are saying, they have 2 "Lebrons" and both get major credit for this team winning titles despite the gap in talent. Draymonds current level/impact like I said is top 10 players in the league level and a perfect fitting secondary guy like a Pippen. Klay makes a great 3rd option.

The odds I show for GS before Durant joined only further that type of thought above as again GS without him was similar to the odds of Miami when they joined and the Lakers were close to them as well not so far off. We can both agree that odds aren't the end of the story but we had that past discussion where they were used a lot as major point so I brought them back to help show again. I know you probably won't agree given our discussions but with the data I provided to show the perception/odds etc at least can maybe show you why so many people think the differences are obvious/clear cut and continue to write off your idea that this isn't much different. When Lebron joined the Heat he was creating a team that was in line with what others thought the top team at the time was. It was maybe similar to what GS was last year as well (Wade is better than Green but as a secondary guy Greens fit/versatility/mismatches outweigh it some imo). Was Miami a bit better than their competition (arguably) and was it a bit of a weak move because they did have the most loaded talent at the top? Yes and I have criticized him in the past for it to an extent although context favors/helps him out a lot looking back. Was it the same or similar move as Durant hopping onto a championship team that was already seen similar to that loaded Miami group and proven with title/records? Not even close.

valade16
05-06-2017, 01:30 PM
Thats fair

I get that one was an already formed team while the other was formed that summer, but both guys put themself in a position where they seemed to be part of something borderline unfair. The consensus best and third best player (with Kobe in between) plus a consensus top 15, possible top 10, all in what at the time seemed their primes, cmon, they didn't have that whole 8 ring show in Miami for no reason.

And now the Warriors (who btw have had a 31-15 or something like that record past 2 playoffs) championship caliber team (which is what everyone was calling Miami the day before lebron joined, cuz Wade and bosh signed) just added a top 5 player. yea it's diff in that he came to something already in place, but the idea behind the move is exactly the same. The moves not the same, but the feeling of ridiculous stackedness is

And lucky me, it happens to be my team :)

I know you Miami fans hear me.

At least the Cavs are closely stacked, the finals can really go either way. Hell, Rox n Spurs ain't slouches either

Yeah, it is a really unique situation. As a fan of another team I'm going to hate the next 5 years watching the Warriors run train on everybody but later on down the line it'll be cool to look back and appreciate how insanely good this team might be.

I've already said it's the greatest collection of prime talent in NBA history with a good chance to go down as the greatest team in NBA history. That's impressive, regardless of circumstances.

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 01:38 PM
Always fun debating with you, gopher. :cheers:

Oddly enough, I think we're thinking the same thing.

A) He has to win a lot of rings.

B) He has to play great while doing so.

We obviously view things differently in general, but with Durant I think we're just on opposite ends of our belief in him being able to accomplish both of those feats. I'm with you on this, if he wins a lot of rings but doesn't play great enough then no that's not going to get him top 10.

Let's see what happens, it's an important moment in NBA history even if it's predictability is boring. Let's just remember one thing - no one saw the Warriors coming at the level they did. Maybe it's Milwaukee, maybe it's someone else, but you never know who might raise up and challenge them. For entertainments sake, let's hope we at least have great WCF and Finals series the next few years lol.

Agreed, cheers!

Also ya I think we both are being open minded in the idea that nothing is set in stone and it could go any way from here at the moment, there is plenty of time and we don't know how it plays out. Also it is very possible that some team(s) make moves to catch up or comes out of nowhere (cmon Minny lets win one more lottery and turn these pieces into something!).

My point has always been though there are some major differences between what each player did and that should be a major factor in judging them aka stop comparing the situations as if they are basically equal
There is pretty strong disagreement with the way you seem to downplay the clear advantages GS has now and where they were before Durant joined in comparison to that Miami team though imo. You keep trying to twist that conversation and ignore the actual perception of these teams and situations etc. imo. I know we agreed to disagree but it just kept getting brought up.

It's really impossible to say how many titles or what stat lines he needs to put up because as others have pointed out he is in the perfect situation for both. I have called him a get mine in the flow type of guy and what better way to take advantage of that then getting matched up with a mix of Kyrie/JR/Love/TT and getting yours then because Lebron can't guard Draymond and you all game while Curry takes more defensive attention. I feel like more open shots/better matchups all game that don't happen when you are carrying/leading the team might be helpful to getting those great/efficient numbers (part of why this is an important aspect he lacks imo, being that creator is more than helping others get the ball with good looks it affects/changes defenses on the whole). Winning a ring if he is playing as the 3rd best on the team overall through the year also isn't some major achievement to me either. So in the end it really comes down to was he leading teams like those other top 10 guys on the way to his titles with epic performances, defenses focusing in to stop HIM, incredible numbers/overall impact etc then yes he will be top 10.

To me he was someone who really needed to step up his game if he wanted to reach that all time level (especially if you use his recent play/last couple to judge him/where he's headed). Joining a team where he likely doesn't need to play at that level (or possibly even be healthy/playing at all) is going to be something we need to consider as context when we look at and judge his numbers/accolades etc. You seem to keep bringing them up as if its like if he hits this mark its ok he made the move, then it is impressive. The reality to me is the "mark" he has to hit is that legendary level of play/impact and rising to the occasion, carrying the team, having defenses double yet you still beat it etc. That just seems so so far away now given where this GS team is at.

nastynice
05-06-2017, 02:07 PM
You just contradicted yourself. Not surprised.

No, actually what I did was point out how your post in no way addressed anything I said

Be surprised, friend

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 03:10 PM
Agreed, cheers!

Also ya I think we both are being open minded in the idea that nothing is set in stone and it could go any way from here at the moment, there is plenty of time and we don't know how it plays out. Also it is very possible that some team(s) make moves to catch up or comes out of nowhere (cmon Minny lets win one more lottery and turn these pieces into something!).

My point has always been though there are some major differences between what each player did and that should be a major factor in judging them aka stop comparing the situations as if they are basically equal
There is pretty strong disagreement with the way you seem to downplay the clear advantages GS has now and where they were before Durant joined in comparison to that Miami team though imo. You keep trying to twist that conversation and ignore the actual perception of these teams and situations etc. imo. I know we agreed to disagree but it just kept getting brought up.

It's really impossible to say how many titles or what stat lines he needs to put up because as others have pointed out he is in the perfect situation for both. I have called him a get mine in the flow type of guy and what better way to take advantage of that then getting matched up with a mix of Kyrie/JR/Love/TT and getting yours then because Lebron can't guard Draymond and you all game while Curry takes more defensive attention. I feel like more open shots/better matchups all game that don't happen when you are carrying/leading the team might be helpful to getting those great/efficient numbers (part of why this is an important aspect he lacks imo, being that creator is more than helping others get the ball with good looks it affects/changes defenses on the whole). Winning a ring if he is playing as the 3rd best on the team overall through the year also isn't some major achievement to me either. So in the end it really comes down to was he leading teams like those other top 10 guys on the way to his titles with epic performances, defenses focusing in to stop HIM, incredible numbers/overall impact etc then yes he will be top 10.

To me he was someone who really needed to step up his game if he wanted to reach that all time level (especially if you use his recent play/last couple to judge him/where he's headed). Joining a team where he likely doesn't need to play at that level (or possibly even be healthy/playing at all) is going to be something we need to consider as context when we look at and judge his numbers/accolades etc. You seem to keep bringing them up as if its like if he hits this mark its ok he made the move, then it is impressive. The reality to me is the "mark" he has to hit is that legendary level of play/impact and rising to the occasion, carrying the team, having defenses double yet you still beat it etc. That just seems so so far away now given where this GS team is at.

Man, if Minnesota can put it all together and those boys start playing D? KAT can really be the perfect foil to their small ball and obliterate them. They are definitely one of the new hopes to watch lol.

My point in the comparison was never as direct as you've tried to make it though. My point was simply that the narrative at the time was very similar. It was his rings won't count, he'll never reach this place, etc. I have acknowledged the difference in team talent plenty of times. That's why I keep throwing out 4-5 rings. That's a whole freaking lot and that Miami team only won 2. It's really, really, really hard to win 4 or more rings with one core. Only 4 teams in history have done it for a reason and two of them were before the 70's. The thing is that Durant is a Magic/Kareem in this scenario, not a James Worthy.

I know this idea that teams won't or can't focus on Durant has been getting thrown out there, but to that I just have one question. Did anybody really watch the last two Finals? What makes anyone think that Cleveland, for example, is not going to let Draymond Green chuck open 3's all day again like the last two years? What makes anyone think that Klay Thompson, as good as he is, was way better than the actual production he ended up producing the last two Finals?

People have complained about what Wade did in Miami's last two Finals, but Klay last year put up 19.6 points, 3.0 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1.0 steal, 0.6 blocks while shooting .426/.350/.786. He scored just 14 points on 6-17 in game 7. He scored 10 points on 3-10 in game 3 and 9 points on 4-12 in game 1. He was worse in 2015, averaging 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 0.5 steals, 0.8 blocks while shooting .409/.300/.917. Over the last 3 games of that series, he averaged 8.7 points, 3.3 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 0 steals, 0.7 blocks while shooting .367/.250/1.000 (0.3 FTA). Dwyane Wade he was not, not by a long shot.

To the Donkey. In 2015, he kinda sucked. He had great counting stats with 13 points, 8.3 rebounds, 5.0 assists, 2.2 steals, 1.2 blocks but shot .381/.263/.735. In games 1-3, when GS was down 2-1 remember, he averaged 9.7 points, 7.7 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 2.7 steals, 1.3 blocks while shooting .267/.125/.923. Last year he ended up with nice averages, but digging deep reveals the whole story. Overall, his 16.5 points, 10.3 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.0 block while shooting .486/.406/.783 is really good. It's important to remember that Cleveland always left him open. When you look at games 3-6, you can see a big reason why Golden State lost. We know he got suspended for game 5, but that's not all. He averaged 7.7 points, 9.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 1.0 steal, 1.7 blocks while shooting .292/.000/.643 (3.3 3PTA). Chris Bosh he was not, although he fits in that 3rd player role better than the gimped Bosh did in Miami.

And that's the thing. Golden State were a great team the last two years, but really more because of Steph Curry. The gravity he creates and the offense they are able to run thanks to his dominance on and off the ball is why Draymond Green and Klay Thompson were as good as they were.

Dwayne Wade is one of the top 5 SGs of all time. Chris Bosh was a perennial All-Star coming off a 24 point and 11 rebound season where he had the best post up FG% in the NBA while averaging 8.4 FTA a game. Wade and Bosh, in a vacuum, are much better than Klay and Green. Those guys didn't need LeBron to be great, and in Bosh's case, LeBron's style of play crushed his game and made him a shell like it has for Kevin Love. After year 1 Wade himself had to step back a bit and let LeBron be great for the best of the team, words from his own mouth.

Do we forget that Chris Bosh was the first stretch 5 in Miami's pace and space offense? Why don't we talk about how Bosh drawing centers out made it almost impossible for teams to stop LeBron and Wade at the rim? How could teams focus on LeBron when they had Wade and the most 40% 3PT shooters on a team in NBA history? Didn't those NBA Finals prove that they couldn't? SA didn't double LeBron, they just threw Kawhi on him. OKC didn't do that either, they just let him and Durant go at it with Thabo spelling Durant and WB with LeBron and Wade to help out. You know, kind of how Battier did the same for Miami cause LeBron never guarded the best much. I don't remember LeBron getting doubled all that much in last years Finals either, thanks to Kyrie and shooters being there. Not sure why people pretend this is the case.

This narrative that Durant is now living in some easy fantasy land which allows him to produce better, and that isn't also a fact for LeBron in Miami or LeBron in Cleveland, is utter nonsense IMO. Cleveland is the best 3 point shooting team in the league and holds the record for most 3PT made in regular and postseason history. Kyrie Irving is the best ISO scorer in basketball by far and he outplayed Steph Curry in the Finals last year. The level Kyrie played at in last years Finals absolutely destroys any level that Klay or Green can play at. The level Wade played at in 2011 and 2012 also holds that claim.

This is the issue at the crux of that argument, for me. Golden State was great, of course, but they didn't have two of the best 5 players at their position in NBA history like Miami did. Klay and Green were excellent in their role, but is anyone confusing them for what Wade and Bosh did as franchise players before Miami? If Green is the best player on your team, and you don't have some All-NBA/Star to be the leading offensive player like Hayward in Utah for example, are they even winning 30 games? Draymond Green benefits from Curry and the system GS plays more than anyone, by far.

Now, with Curry and Durant, they have two players who are all-time talented at their positions like Miami did. Yes, Green and Klay together beat Bosh, especially in terms of them fitting in their roles which maximizes their value, and once again that just means that they need to win more rings than Miami did to validate it because they have more.

This is something that I think Curry, and Durant, are both underrated in. You call it being passive, or in the flow or whatever, but their ability to do a ton of damage without needing to dominate the ball is why a team like this can exist. The Cavs have three of the best offensive players in the NBA, there's no reason why they need to be such an insanely ISO heavy offense. The thing is, that's how LeBron plays. If you put Draymond Green on Cleveland, he's not going to be Draymond Green from Golden State. He's gonna do what Love does, which is primarily space the floor as a spot up shooter. He's not going to be running a bunch of plays from the post or handling like GS let's him while Curry and Durant create havoc with their gravity, because that's just not how LeBron/Cleveland plays basketball.

Curry and Durant are going to be the focus for any team that game plans for Golden State, just like LeBron and Wade were for Miami. I don't understand how anyone can think different on that. LeBron doesn't guard the best players all game anyways, so that means nothing. He wasn't guarding Paul George much and it had nothing to do with Lance Stephenson being great lol. He wasn't guarding DeRozan a whole lot yesterday either. LeBron will be guarding Green because it will allow him to roam on help D and they already have proven that they don't care how many open 3's he shoots.

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 04:43 PM
Man, if Minnesota can put it all together and those boys start playing D? KAT can really be the perfect foil to their small ball and obliterate them. They are definitely one of the new hopes to watch lol.

My point in the comparison was never as direct as you've tried to make it though. My point was simply that the narrative at the time was very similar. It was his rings won't count, he'll never reach this place, etc. I have acknowledged the difference in team talent plenty of times. That's why I keep throwing out 4-5 rings. That's a whole freaking lot and that Miami team only won 2. It's really, really, really hard to win 4 or more rings with one core. Only 4 teams in history have done it for a reason and two of them were before the 70's. The thing is that Durant is a Magic/Kareem in this scenario, not a James Worthy.

There are tons of trolls, especially for Lebron. I agree a few people were saying things like that and it is why I said (both then and now) that it was an overreaction to the situation. What they were complaining about is actually like what Durant actually did though. The whole hop on for an easy title didn't apply because he clearly lead the way through all the stuff we went over etc and many at the time were not going crazy with Lebron hate and pointing out the flaws. You have to understand it is frustrating to tell those people to chill out at the time because they were acting ridiculous only to get that used against me now lol.

I will get into it more later but I don't think you understand how important/impactful Green is or how great it is to have a secondary player be DPOY caliber. There is a reason he actually has an argument as valuable/impactful as Durant when you look at stats like RPM etc instead of Scoring/PER types. On top of this Kareem was 34+ for a majority of those titles and falling off as a player, most of his peak damage had been done and his legacy was already great. If you wanna say his play from that point is the credit Durant might get then maybe it is somewhat close depending on how things go? Like I said you just can't find a similar comparison because of the level to which this team is stacked and in their primes etc.

My point this entire time has been look at the actual reality of the situation and it is obvious as I have shown. Ignore some of the trolls and look at where players were ranked/thought of. Look at odds where we know it isn't the few trolls coming up with their numbers etc. It all points to Durant's move being closer to joining the Miami team that already formed than creating that situation for himself. I will also get into your specific comparison below but it seems now we are just ignoring what was said and trying to move the stick and try and find a new way to make these situations seem close when they just weren't (including as I see talk about specific series again moreso than an entire picture (even if just playoffs lets get a sample that isn't just a handful of games to make our points).


I know this idea that teams won't or can't focus on Durant has been getting thrown out there, but to that I just have one question. Did anybody really watch the last two Finals? What makes anyone think that Cleveland, for example, is not going to let Draymond Green chuck open 3's all day again like the last two years? What makes anyone think that Klay Thompson, as good as he is, was way better than the actual production he ended up producing the last two Finals?

People have complained about what Wade did in Miami's last two Finals, but Klay last year put up 19.6 points, 3.0 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1.0 steal, 0.6 blocks while shooting .426/.350/.786. He scored just 14 points on 6-17 in game 7. He scored 10 points on 3-10 in game 3 and 9 points on 4-12 in game 1. He was worse in 2015, averaging 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 0.5 steals, 0.8 blocks while shooting .409/.300/.917. Over the last 3 games of that series, he averaged 8.7 points, 3.3 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 0 steals, 0.7 blocks while shooting .367/.250/1.000 (0.3 FTA). Dwyane Wade he was not, not by a long shot.

To the Donkey. In 2015, he kinda sucked. He had great counting stats with 13 points, 8.3 rebounds, 5.0 assists, 2.2 steals, 1.2 blocks but shot .381/.263/.735. In games 1-3, when GS was down 2-1 remember, he averaged 9.7 points, 7.7 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 2.7 steals, 1.3 blocks while shooting .267/.125/.923. Last year he ended up with nice averages, but digging deep reveals the whole story. Overall, his 16.5 points, 10.3 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.0 block while shooting .486/.406/.783 is really good. It's important to remember that Cleveland always left him open. When you look at games 3-6, you can see a big reason why Golden State lost. We know he got suspended for game 5, but that's not all. He averaged 7.7 points, 9.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 1.0 steal, 1.7 blocks while shooting .292/.000/.643 (3.3 3PTA). Chris Bosh he was not, although he fits in that 3rd player role better than the gimped Bosh did in Miami.

And that's the thing. Golden State were a great team the last two years, but really more because of Steph Curry. The gravity he creates and the offense they are able to run thanks to his dominance on and off the ball is why Draymond Green and Klay Thompson were as good as they were.

Dwayne Wade is one of the top 5 SGs of all time. Chris Bosh was a perennial All-Star coming off a 24 point and 11 rebound season where he had the best post up FG% in the NBA while averaging 8.4 FTA a game. Wade and Bosh, in a vacuum, are much better than Klay and Green. Those guys didn't need LeBron to be great, and in Bosh's case, LeBron's style of play crushed his game and made him a shell like it has for Kevin Love. After year 1 Wade himself had to step back a bit and let LeBron be great for the best of the team, words from his own mouth.

Alright well I have covered the perception others had at the time of these teams etc and already agreed you can have a different opinion so keep that in mind. I get you don't see it but that doesn't change all of the evidence I have brought to the table on the topic either.

I like that you tried to bring the numbers in but lets try and clear some things up. When it comes to creating a team we can both agree there are certain skillsets that are great like spacing etc. You seem to totally get that and focus some on it with Bosh and others below but Draymond spacing/versatility/defense are like perfect for a next best to a superstar. Those GS teams had Curry to create/lead the offense and Green for the Defense/versatility/rebounding. Lebron was the best scorer/creator/rebounder/defender on the Heat teams himself, there was no second guy like Green covering half the game as that top leader/best player. It is very important because you used things like just their scoring/raw numbers to equate impact and it is so far off to stop there and claim Green wasn't on Bosh's level (and again why is it always small samples and never entire pictures?). This is kinda what I mean when I say it seems like you just cherry pick little things instead of looking at the whole picture, just like with odds/perception. The level of talent these guys has isn't reliant on single games/series but their product of work and we need to look at every factor if you want to make a legit comparison.

Wade in the 4 years playoffs: 21.6 PER, .147 WS/48, 4.0 BPM
Bosh in the 4 years playoffs: 18.1 PER, .150 WS/48, 1.1 BPM

Green last 2 years playoffs:17.6 PER, .166 WS/48, 6.5 BPM (note this is where we see defense included unlike stats like PER or just scoring numbers etc. and it is clear that it's a major factor as his WS/48 and BPM now higher due to that factor than those two).
Klay last 2 years playoffs:17.3 PER, .131 WS/48, 2.2 BPM

Now this isn't to say that they are better just on these numbers nor will I try and go into single series/games to extrapolate negatives towards Wade/Bosh in a general sense. The point is when you consider fit/talent/ability/overall impact on both ends etc. It is not as far off as you make it seem. Green was easily more impactful/important for GS than Bosh was Miami. His impact is right near the top of the league overall and is a perfect secondary compliment, it's part of the reason he is top 10 in RPM type stats etc yearly as well. I just don't know how you can talk about these guys impact and ignore that factor completely and try and have it be meaningful. When you look at the entire seasons of play and all of the stats not just raw ones you can make a pretty good argument for Green as an incredible secondary guy to an all time great.

I can agree that they are not as uber talented offensively as Wade/Bosh were but when you have a Curry or a Lebron that isn't necessarily needing to be the focus on building the rest of your team. A defensive anchor/mismatch creator like Draymond is just as big of a factor for Miami as that star power for Miami imo with those guys. Draymond might not be an all time talent in the sense of Wade but when it comes to being a secondary option to these great creators well now his impact is possibly exceeding them/what you consider his talent/value because the role fits him so well and he brings an anchor to one side of the ball which neither of those stars did. This is part of the reason GS was favored similar to that Miami team, they had that top talent 2 time MVP, two top 20 or so players in most peoples minds (I think Green was like 10, Klay 14 on PSD) and on top of that they actually had good role players too (like Iggy with his FMVP). Again I am not saying we have to agree or say that GS was for sure as talented/good as Miami when they joined but it was close if you look at the entire picture/numbers moreso than picking and choosing. Add in the perception talk and it only validates it further. You might not agree and that is totally fine but that is where many people are at/coming from on this topic. Green/Klay are not better than Wade/Bosh all time but as secondary options they had somewhat similar impact and if we are talking that initial team when these guys were close to their prime the depth of GS easily covers Bibby/Haslem/Anthony/Chalmers to help out as well.

Again Durant joining the championship/73 win Warriors is closer to him joining the Heat with Lebron already there than simply doing what Lebron did in joining Wade/Bosh.




Do we forget that Chris Bosh was the first stretch 5 in Miami's pace and space offense? Why don't we talk about how Bosh drawing centers out made it almost impossible for teams to stop LeBron and Wade at the rim? How could teams focus on LeBron when they had Wade and the most 40% 3PT shooters on a team in NBA history? Didn't those NBA Finals prove that they couldn't? SA didn't double LeBron, they just threw Kawhi on him. OKC didn't do that either, they just let him and Durant go at it with Thabo spelling Durant and WB with LeBron and Wade to help out. You know, kind of how Battier did the same for Miami cause LeBron never guarded the best much. I don't remember LeBron getting doubled all that much in last years Finals either, thanks to Kyrie and shooters being there. Not sure why people pretend this is the case.

This narrative that Durant is now living in some easy fantasy land which allows him to produce better, and that isn't also a fact for LeBron in Miami or LeBron in Cleveland, is utter nonsense IMO. Cleveland is the best 3 point shooting team in the league and holds the record for most 3PT made in regular and postseason history. Kyrie Irving is the best ISO scorer in basketball by far and he outplayed Steph Curry in the Finals last year. The level Kyrie played at in last years Finals absolutely destroys any level that Klay or Green can play at. The level Wade played at in 2011 and 2012 also holds that claim.

This is the issue at the crux of that argument, for me. Golden State was great, of course, but they didn't have two of the best 5 players at their position in NBA history like Miami did. Klay and Green were excellent in their role, but is anyone confusing them for what Wade and Bosh did as franchise players before Miami? If Green is the best player on your team, and you don't have some All-NBA/Star to be the leading offensive player like Hayward in Utah for example, are they even winning 30 games? Draymond Green benefits from Curry and the system GS plays more than anyone, by far.

Now, with Curry and Durant, they have two players who are all-time talented at their positions like Miami did. Yes, Green and Klay together beat Bosh, especially in terms of them fitting in their roles which maximizes their value, and once again that just means that they need to win more rings than Miami did to validate it because they have more.

This is something that I think Curry, and Durant, are both underrated in. You call it being passive, or in the flow or whatever, but they're ability to do a ton of damage without needing to dominate the ball is why a team like this can exist. The Cavs have three of the best offensive players in the NBA, there's no reason why they need to be such an insanely ISO heavy offense. The thing is, that's how LeBron plays. If you put Draymond Green on Cleveland, he's not going to be Draymond Green from Golden State. He's gonna do what Love does, which is primarily space the floor as a spot up shooter. He's not going to be running a bunch of plays from the post or handling like GS let's him while Curry and Durant create havoc with their gravity, because that's just not how LeBron/Cleveland plays basketball.

Curry and Durant are going to be the focus for any team that game plans for Golden State, just like LeBron and Wade were for Miami. I don't understand how anyone can think different on that. LeBron doesn't guard the best players all game anyways, so that means nothing. He wasn't guarding Paul George much and it had nothing to do with Lance Stephenson being great lol. He wasn't guarding DeRozan a whole lot yesterday either. LeBron will be guarding Green because it will allow him to roam on help D and they already have proven that they don't care how many open 3's he shoots.

I covered some of this in the above response but I just wanted to hit a few more points as well. You seem to understand that Green cannot carry a team like the other stars but now think about how other stars fit into secondary roles and their impact within. This is the conversation we are having here with these teams having Curry/Lebron. Again Green on the Warriors easily had a bigger impact than Bosh and defense is a major part of that. That is without Klay even being involved. I get what you are trying to say that because he is a better #1 option you are saying he is therefore more help on a championship team but that isn't how building a team works and we are talking about these guys impact as 2nd/3rd option types not in that role anyways. If the Cavs have Draymond they wouldn't have to use TT as much which allows more spacing and he could very easily be used in pick and roll/pop to take advantage of that space. Then on top of it he adds a defensive presence in a completely different planet from Love lol. I think you just really underrate his impact based on this and that might be where this big gap from you compared to perception/odds etc comes into play.

The difference for Durant is pretty simple, he isn't asked to create or take that defensive pressure. I dunno what you watched but throughout his entire career teams have tried to pack the paint on Lebron throughout at times. Sure sometimes they did not like with Kawhi on him in the finals, it was not 100% of the time for any great though and that doesn't mean it wasn't happening in general (again single instances instead of broad picture). Curry is the guy Warriors rely on to set them up like James was for Miami and also gets closer to that type of attention (you even mentioned his gravity earlier so you understand how he can open it up for Durant). The benefit is just that Durant is playing off one of these "gravity" players and will get open looks like you harped on for Green in return (and honestly Westy did this to an extent already for him, Kawhi guarded him a lot in last years playoffs instead of Durant). If you think teams tried to stop Wade in the same way as they focused on Lebron I think you should go back to rewatch/rethink your position. Durant will get treated more like those secondary guys though, we agree there.

See in the end no matter how you try and put it you end up with GS having one more stud (you tried just lumping 2 together to compare to Bosh for example). If you consider the entire picture of talent/skills/fit/recent history and other teams and then also factor in them actually winning a title together, setting a RS record together and the actual context of what happens it gets much worse even for Durant. It's why the odds/perception/stats all point to a lot of the similar things as I have shown, that Miami was closer to the GS we were seeing/coming up before Durant even got there. That is a big factor to many people and why many just see that big jump from Durant as a let less realistic. Only time can tell though.

lol, please
05-06-2017, 06:33 PM
Man, if Minnesota can put it all together and those boys start playing D? KAT can really be the perfect foil to their small ball and obliterate them. They are definitely one of the new hopes to watch lol.

My point in the comparison was never as direct as you've tried to make it though. My point was simply that the narrative at the time was very similar. It was his rings won't count, he'll never reach this place, etc. I have acknowledged the difference in team talent plenty of times. That's why I keep throwing out 4-5 rings. That's a whole freaking lot and that Miami team only won 2. It's really, really, really hard to win 4 or more rings with one core. Only 4 teams in history have done it for a reason and two of them were before the 70's. The thing is that Durant is a Magic/Kareem in this scenario, not a James Worthy.

I know this idea that teams won't or can't focus on Durant has been getting thrown out there, but to that I just have one question. Did anybody really watch the last two Finals? What makes anyone think that Cleveland, for example, is not going to let Draymond Green chuck open 3's all day again like the last two years? What makes anyone think that Klay Thompson, as good as he is, was way better than the actual production he ended up producing the last two Finals?

People have complained about what Wade did in Miami's last two Finals, but Klay last year put up 19.6 points, 3.0 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1.0 steal, 0.6 blocks while shooting .426/.350/.786. He scored just 14 points on 6-17 in game 7. He scored 10 points on 3-10 in game 3 and 9 points on 4-12 in game 1. He was worse in 2015, averaging 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 0.5 steals, 0.8 blocks while shooting .409/.300/.917. Over the last 3 games of that series, he averaged 8.7 points, 3.3 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 0 steals, 0.7 blocks while shooting .367/.250/1.000 (0.3 FTA). Dwyane Wade he was not, not by a long shot.

To the Donkey. In 2015, he kinda sucked. He had great counting stats with 13 points, 8.3 rebounds, 5.0 assists, 2.2 steals, 1.2 blocks but shot .381/.263/.735. In games 1-3, when GS was down 2-1 remember, he averaged 9.7 points, 7.7 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 2.7 steals, 1.3 blocks while shooting .267/.125/.923. Last year he ended up with nice averages, but digging deep reveals the whole story. Overall, his 16.5 points, 10.3 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.0 block while shooting .486/.406/.783 is really good. It's important to remember that Cleveland always left him open. When you look at games 3-6, you can see a big reason why Golden State lost. We know he got suspended for game 5, but that's not all. He averaged 7.7 points, 9.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 1.0 steal, 1.7 blocks while shooting .292/.000/.643 (3.3 3PTA). Chris Bosh he was not, although he fits in that 3rd player role better than the gimped Bosh did in Miami.

And that's the thing. Golden State were a great team the last two years, but really more because of Steph Curry. The gravity he creates and the offense they are able to run thanks to his dominance on and off the ball is why Draymond Green and Klay Thompson were as good as they were.

Dwayne Wade is one of the top 5 SGs of all time. Chris Bosh was a perennial All-Star coming off a 24 point and 11 rebound season where he had the best post up FG% in the NBA while averaging 8.4 FTA a game. Wade and Bosh, in a vacuum, are much better than Klay and Green. Those guys didn't need LeBron to be great, and in Bosh's case, LeBron's style of play crushed his game and made him a shell like it has for Kevin Love. After year 1 Wade himself had to step back a bit and let LeBron be great for the best of the team, words from his own mouth.

Do we forget that Chris Bosh was the first stretch 5 in Miami's pace and space offense? Why don't we talk about how Bosh drawing centers out made it almost impossible for teams to stop LeBron and Wade at the rim? How could teams focus on LeBron when they had Wade and the most 40% 3PT shooters on a team in NBA history? Didn't those NBA Finals prove that they couldn't? SA didn't double LeBron, they just threw Kawhi on him. OKC didn't do that either, they just let him and Durant go at it with Thabo spelling Durant and WB with LeBron and Wade to help out. You know, kind of how Battier did the same for Miami cause LeBron never guarded the best much. I don't remember LeBron getting doubled all that much in last years Finals either, thanks to Kyrie and shooters being there. Not sure why people pretend this is the case.

This narrative that Durant is now living in some easy fantasy land which allows him to produce better, and that isn't also a fact for LeBron in Miami or LeBron in Cleveland, is utter nonsense IMO. Cleveland is the best 3 point shooting team in the league and holds the record for most 3PT made in regular and postseason history. Kyrie Irving is the best ISO scorer in basketball by far and he outplayed Steph Curry in the Finals last year. The level Kyrie played at in last years Finals absolutely destroys any level that Klay or Green can play at. The level Wade played at in 2011 and 2012 also holds that claim.

This is the issue at the crux of that argument, for me. Golden State was great, of course, but they didn't have two of the best 5 players at their position in NBA history like Miami did. Klay and Green were excellent in their role, but is anyone confusing them for what Wade and Bosh did as franchise players before Miami? If Green is the best player on your team, and you don't have some All-NBA/Star to be the leading offensive player like Hayward in Utah for example, are they even winning 30 games? Draymond Green benefits from Curry and the system GS plays more than anyone, by far.

Now, with Curry and Durant, they have two players who are all-time talented at their positions like Miami did. Yes, Green and Klay together beat Bosh, especially in terms of them fitting in their roles which maximizes their value, and once again that just means that they need to win more rings than Miami did to validate it because they have more.

This is something that I think Curry, and Durant, are both underrated in. You call it being passive, or in the flow or whatever, but their ability to do a ton of damage without needing to dominate the ball is why a team like this can exist. The Cavs have three of the best offensive players in the NBA, there's no reason why they need to be such an insanely ISO heavy offense. The thing is, that's how LeBron plays. If you put Draymond Green on Cleveland, he's not going to be Draymond Green from Golden State. He's gonna do what Love does, which is primarily space the floor as a spot up shooter. He's not going to be running a bunch of plays from the post or handling like GS let's him while Curry and Durant create havoc with their gravity, because that's just not how LeBron/Cleveland plays basketball.

Curry and Durant are going to be the focus for any team that game plans for Golden State, just like LeBron and Wade were for Miami. I don't understand how anyone can think different on that. LeBron doesn't guard the best players all game anyways, so that means nothing. He wasn't guarding Paul George much and it had nothing to do with Lance Stephenson being great lol. He wasn't guarding DeRozan a whole lot yesterday either. LeBron will be guarding Green because it will allow him to roam on help D and they already have proven that they don't care how many open 3's he shoots.

Great post. Well said. I agree with everything here but the bolded.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 08:54 PM
There are tons of trolls, especially for Lebron. I agree a few people were saying things like that and it is why I said (both then and now) that it was an overreaction to the situation. What they were complaining about is actually like what Durant actually did though. The whole hop on for an easy title didn't apply because he clearly lead the way through all the stuff we went over etc and many at the time were not going crazy with Lebron hate and pointing out the flaws. You have to understand it is frustrating to tell those people to chill out at the time because they were acting ridiculous only to get that used against me now lol.

I will get into it more later but I don't think you understand how important/impactful Green is or how great it is to have a secondary player be DPOY caliber. There is a reason he actually has an argument as valuable/impactful as Durant when you look at stats like RPM etc instead of Scoring/PER types. On top of this Kareem was 34+ for a majority of those titles and falling off as a player, most of his peak damage had been done and his legacy was already great. If you wanna say his play from that point is the credit Durant might get then maybe it is somewhat close depending on how things go? Like I said you just can't find a similar comparison because of the level to which this team is stacked and in their primes etc.

My point this entire time has been look at the actual reality of the situation and it is obvious as I have shown. Ignore some of the trolls and look at where players were ranked/thought of. Look at odds where we know it isn't the few trolls coming up with their numbers etc. It all points to Durant's move being closer to joining the Miami team that already formed than creating that situation for himself. I will also get into your specific comparison below but it seems now we are just ignoring what was said and trying to move the stick and try and find a new way to make these situations seem close when they just weren't (including as I see talk about specific series again moreso than an entire picture (even if just playoffs lets get a sample that isn't just a handful of games to make our points).



Alright well I have covered the perception others had at the time of these teams etc and already agreed you can have a different opinion so keep that in mind. I get you don't see it but that doesn't change all of the evidence I have brought to the table on the topic either.

I like that you tried to bring the numbers in but lets try and clear some things up. When it comes to creating a team we can both agree there are certain skillsets that are great like spacing etc. You seem to totally get that and focus some on it with Bosh and others below but Draymond spacing/versatility/defense are like perfect for a next best to a superstar. Those GS teams had Curry to create/lead the offense and Green for the Defense/versatility/rebounding. Lebron was the best scorer/creator/rebounder/defender on the Heat teams himself, there was no second guy like Green covering half the game as that top leader/best player. It is very important because you used things like just their scoring/raw numbers to equate impact and it is so far off to stop there and claim Green wasn't on Bosh's level (and again why is it always small samples and never entire pictures?). This is kinda what I mean when I say it seems like you just cherry pick little things instead of looking at the whole picture, just like with odds/perception. The level of talent these guys has isn't reliant on single games/series but their product of work and we need to look at every factor if you want to make a legit comparison.

Wade in the 4 years playoffs: 21.6 PER, .147 WS/48, 4.0 BPM
Bosh in the 4 years playoffs: 18.1 PER, .150 WS/48, 1.1 BPM

Green last 2 years playoffs:17.6 PER, .166 WS/48, 6.5 BPM (note this is where we see defense included unlike stats like PER or just scoring numbers etc. and it is clear that it's a major factor as his WS/48 and BPM now higher due to that factor than those two).
Klay last 2 years playoffs:17.3 PER, .131 WS/48, 2.2 BPM

Now this isn't to say that they are better just on these numbers nor will I try and go into single series/games to extrapolate negatives towards Wade/Bosh in a general sense. The point is when you consider fit/talent/ability/overall impact on both ends etc. It is not as far off as you make it seem. Green was easily more impactful/important for GS than Bosh was Miami. His impact is right near the top of the league overall and is a perfect secondary compliment, it's part of the reason he is top 10 in RPM type stats etc yearly as well. I just don't know how you can talk about these guys impact and ignore that factor completely and try and have it be meaningful. When you look at the entire seasons of play and all of the stats not just raw ones you can make a pretty good argument for Green as an incredible secondary guy to an all time great.

I can agree that they are not as uber talented offensively as Wade/Bosh were but when you have a Curry or a Lebron that isn't necessarily needing to be the focus on building the rest of your team. A defensive anchor/mismatch creator like Draymond is just as big of a factor for Miami as that star power for Miami imo with those guys. Draymond might not be an all time talent in the sense of Wade but when it comes to being a secondary option to these great creators well now his impact is possibly exceeding them/what you consider his talent/value because the role fits him so well and he brings an anchor to one side of the ball which neither of those stars did. This is part of the reason GS was favored similar to that Miami team, they had that top talent 2 time MVP, two top 20 or so players in most peoples minds (I think Green was like 10, Klay 14 on PSD) and on top of that they actually had good role players too (like Iggy with his FMVP). Again I am not saying we have to agree or say that GS was for sure as talented/good as Miami when they joined but it was close if you look at the entire picture/numbers moreso than picking and choosing. Add in the perception talk and it only validates it further. You might not agree and that is totally fine but that is where many people are at/coming from on this topic. Green/Klay are not better than Wade/Bosh all time but as secondary options they had somewhat similar impact and if we are talking that initial team when these guys were close to their prime the depth of GS easily covers Bibby/Haslem/Anthony/Chalmers to help out as well.

Again Durant joining the championship/73 win Warriors is closer to him joining the Heat with Lebron already there than simply doing what Lebron did in joining Wade/Bosh.





I covered some of this in the above response but I just wanted to hit a few more points as well. You seem to understand that Green cannot carry a team like the other stars but now think about how other stars fit into secondary roles and their impact within. This is the conversation we are having here with these teams having Curry/Lebron. Again Green on the Warriors easily had a bigger impact than Bosh and defense is a major part of that. That is without Klay even being involved. I get what you are trying to say that because he is a better #1 option you are saying he is therefore more help on a championship team but that isn't how building a team works and we are talking about these guys impact as 2nd/3rd option types not in that role anyways. If the Cavs have Draymond they wouldn't have to use TT as much which allows more spacing and he could very easily be used in pick and roll/pop to take advantage of that space. Then on top of it he adds a defensive presence in a completely different planet from Love lol. I think you just really underrate his impact based on this and that might be where this big gap from you compared to perception/odds etc comes into play.

The difference for Durant is pretty simple, he isn't asked to create or take that defensive pressure. I dunno what you watched but throughout his entire career teams have tried to pack the paint on Lebron throughout at times. Sure sometimes they did not like with Kawhi on him in the finals, it was not 100% of the time for any great though and that doesn't mean it wasn't happening in general (again single instances instead of broad picture). Curry is the guy Warriors rely on to set them up like James was for Miami and also gets closer to that type of attention (you even mentioned his gravity earlier so you understand how he can open it up for Durant). The benefit is just that Durant is playing off one of these "gravity" players and will get open looks like you harped on for Green in return (and honestly Westy did this to an extent already for him, Kawhi guarded him a lot in last years playoffs instead of Durant). If you think teams tried to stop Wade in the same way as they focused on Lebron I think you should go back to rewatch/rethink your position. Durant will get treated more like those secondary guys though, we agree there.

See in the end no matter how you try and put it you end up with GS having one more stud (you tried just lumping 2 together to compare to Bosh for example). If you consider the entire picture of talent/skills/fit/recent history and other teams and then also factor in them actually winning a title together, setting a RS record together and the actual context of what happens it gets much worse even for Durant. It's why the odds/perception/stats all point to a lot of the similar things as I have shown, that Miami was closer to the GS we were seeing/coming up before Durant even got there. That is a big factor to many people and why many just see that big jump from Durant as a let less realistic. Only time can tell though.

Here are some of the issues with your stance in this comparison.

1) You're using hindsight for Miami as preconceived fact, instead of remembering the perception in the world at the time of it happening and why. Just like that Miami team didn't meet expectations, there's no guarantee that this Warriors team does either.

2) You're acting like LeBron was a proven champion before Miami - he wasn't - and that Wade wasn't already proven to be one and one of the best playoff performers in history - he was. Durant is not a proven champion joining a team that has won a championship, even if the circumstances were less concrete.

3) The talk of Durant joining a "73-win team" needs to calm down a bit. While it's mostly the same team, it wasn't exactly a straight up addition. They lost Barnes, Bogut, Speights, Barbosa, Ezeli and Rush for Durant, Zaza, West, McGee and rookie 2nd rounder McCaw. Yes, I'm aware that they overall gained more than they lost because of Durant, but it's not the "same team". They lost in other areas overall, they didn't straight improve down the line.

Likewise, the idea that LeBron joined some nothing team is also not true. While the team was mostly new, Wade, Chalmers, Haslem and Joel Anthony were key holdovers from a 47-win playoff team. Yeah, they lost Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal, but something tells me that the additions of LeBron and Bosh made up for that. Not to mention Mike Miller as a MLE signing and the hoard of vets that came cheap who were actually better than the depth that was in place beforehand.

The Warriors upgraded Harrison Barnes to Kevin Durant while weakening depth in some spots.

The Heat upgraded Michael Beasley to LeBron James and Jermaine O'Neal to Chris Bosh while completely improving their depth.

Can we stop acting like LeBron joined the Heat that won 15-games? They went from 47 wins to 58 in year 1. If Bosh happened to be there instead of O'Neal the year before with everything else playing out the same, how different is it really? You don't think 24 and 11 Bosh is worth 11 wins over 13 and 7 O'Neal? Maybe 8?

4) You've lumped in the entirety of their 4 years and have compared that to a 2 year run with GS. This ignores the effect that the wear and tear of 4 straight Finals, plus an Olympics, had on Wade and Bosh. This ignores the fact that Wade in particular had a pretty steep drop off in years 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2, a factor being that he doesn't have the meniscus in one of his knees since college. Instead of comparing the total, why not compare years 1 and 2 with years 1 and 2? Because, of course, this would greatly hurt your argument.

You can pretend that Wade wasn't a top 3 player at the time of that FA, while Klay or Green are nothing close. That's fine, it's just not true.

Wade averaged 24.5 pts, 7.1 reb, 4.4 ast, 1.6 stl, 1.3 blk and shot .485/.269/.777 with 8.5 FTA a game in their first postseason. This is the kind of production you would compare with someone like, oh I don't know, Kevin Durant. Hell, his production that postseason was on par with LeBron's and he even led the team in scoring. This is a big no no for you with you Durant and WB, right? You don't compare Dwyane Wade with Klay Thompson or Draymond Green. That's ridiculous. Do I even need to lay out his Finals vs Dallas? I feel like I do, if this is even being brought up. 26.5 pts, 7.0 reb, 5.2 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.5 blk shooting .546/.304/.694 with 8.2 FTA. Let me know when Klay or Green are ever on prime Dwyane Wade's level. Spoiler - it'll never happen.

You're also severely underrating Bosh's defense here. Yes, of course Green is a better defender, but Bosh was hardly a slouch. He was one of the best rim defenders and he was flat out the best PnR defending big in the NBA. Wade was also a far better defender than Klay is, to help make up that difference. **** man, the blueprint to use an athletic stretch 5 who can defend with a small ball stretch 4 is spawned from Bosh and LeBron/Battier in Miami lol.

There is no argument that Klay + Green > Wade + Bosh. You can get into Iggy and the rest, and that helps make up for it, but I've laid out multiple times how amazing Miami's supporting cast was in the two Finals they won so don't act like they were chopped liver either.

You keep avoiding 2011 like a plague, I guess because it was for LeBron. Bosh averaged 18.6 pts and 8.5 rebs that postseason. He also performed better than LeBron in that Finals. You keep talking about the help or that the perception of that team was an overreaction, but the fact is that the only reason why Miami underachieved was because LeBron choked in 2011. You can't erase that from history, no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

All of this is so beyond off topic, we're just comparing GS pre-Durant to LeBron's Miami teams lol. Let's get into the simple facts.

1) If GS stayed as is, bringing back Barnes and Bogut, who we saw this year was pretty done, how many rings would you expect that group to end up with total? Total including the last two years. I think they would have won 2-3 rings over 4-5 years.

2) Now with Durant, what is your expectation on the total? I think they now can realistically win 5-6 over 7-8 years. To me, that's an enormous difference.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 09:08 PM
Great post. Well said. I agree with everything here but the bolded.

Thanks :hi5:

I don't know, maybe saying ever is a little too concrete, but I don't think so based on what I've seen from them on that stage.

valade16
05-06-2017, 09:12 PM
The reason I don't think KD will ever be Top 10 has nothing to do with how many rings or going to GS, it's because he simply hasn't played as good as the guys I have top 10 at his peak. So he'd have to play better than he ever has on GS to get Top 10. He could make a push from Top 25 (about where I have him now) to Top 15, because at his peak he could definitely be argued to have played as good as the top 15 guys.

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 09:13 PM
Here are some of the issues with your stance in this comparison.

1) You're using hindsight for Miami as preconceived fact, instead of remembering the perception in the world at the time of it happening and why. Just like that Miami team didn't meet expectations, there's no guarantee that this Warriors team does either.

2) You're acting like LeBron was a proven champion before Miami - he wasn't - and that Wade wasn't already proven to be one and one of the best playoff performers in history - he was. Durant is not a proven champion joining a team that has won a championship, even if the circumstances were less concrete.

3) The talk of Durant joining a "73-win team" needs to calm down a bit. While it's mostly the same team, it wasn't exactly a straight up addition. They lost Barnes, Bogut, Speights, Barbosa, Ezeli and Rush for Durant, Zaza, West, McGee and rookie 2nd rounder McCaw. Yes, I'm aware that they overall gained more than they lost because of Durant, but it's not the "same team". They lost in other areas overall, they didn't straight improve down the line.

Likewise, the idea that LeBron joined some nothing team is also not true. While the team was mostly new, Wade, Chalmers, Haslem and Joel Anthony were key holdovers from a 47-win playoff team. Yeah, they lost Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal, but something tells me that the additions of LeBron and Bosh made up for that. Not to mention Mike Miller as a MLE signing and the hoard of vets that came cheap who were actually better than the depth that was in place beforehand.

The Warriors upgraded Harrison Barnes to Kevin Durant while weakening depth in some spots.

The Heat upgraded Michael Beasley to LeBron James and Jermaine O'Neal to Chris Bosh while completely improving their depth.

Can we stop acting like LeBron joined the Heat that won 15-games? They went from 47 wins to 58 in year 1. If Bosh happened to be there instead of O'Neal the year before with everything else playing out the same, how different is it really? You don't think 24 and 11 Bosh is worth 11 wins over 13 and 7 O'Neal? Maybe 8?

4) You've lumped in the entirety of their 4 years and have compared that to a 2 year run with GS. This ignores the effect that the wear and tear of 4 straight Finals, plus an Olympics, had on Wade and Bosh. This ignores the fact that Wade in particular had a pretty steep drop off in years 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2, a factor being that he doesn't have the meniscus in one of his knees since college. Instead of comparing the total, why not compare years 1 and 2 with years 1 and 2? Because, of course, this would greatly hurt your argument.

You can pretend that Wade wasn't a top 3 player at the time of that FA, while Klay or Green are nothing close. That's fine, it's just not true.

Wade averaged 24.5 pts, 7.1 reb, 4.4 ast, 1.6 stl, 1.3 blk and shot .485/.269/.777 with 8.5 FTA a game in their first postseason. This is the kind of production you would compare with someone like, oh I don't know, Kevin Durant. Hell, his production that postseason was on par with LeBron's and he even led the team in scoring. This is a big no no for you with you Durant and WB, right? You don't compare Dwyane Wade with Klay Thompson or Draymond Green. That's ridiculous. Do I even need to lay out his Finals vs Dallas? I feel like I do, if this is even being brought up. 26.5 pts, 7.0 reb, 5.2 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.5 blk shooting .546/.304/.694 with 8.2 FTA. Let me know when Klay or Green are ever on prime Dwyane Wade's level. Spoiler - it'll never happen.

You're also severely underrating Bosh's defense here. Yes, of course Green is a better defender, but Bosh was hardly a slouch. He was one of the best rim defenders and he was flat out the best PnR defending big in the NBA. Wade was also a far better defender than Klay is, to help make up that difference. **** man, the blueprint to use an athletic stretch 5 who can defend with a small ball stretch 4 is spawned from Bosh and LeBron/Battier in Miami lol.

There is no argument that Klay + Green > Wade + Bosh. You can get into Iggy and the rest, and that helps make up for it, but I've laid out multiple times how amazing Miami's supporting cast was in the two Finals they won so don't act like they were chopped liver either.

You keep avoiding 2011 like a plague, I guess because it was for LeBron. Bosh averaged 18.6 pts and 8.5 rebs that postseason. He also performed better than LeBron in that Finals. You keep talking about the help or that the perception of that team was an overreaction, but the fact is that the only reason why Miami underachieved was because LeBron choked in 2011. You can't erase that from history, no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

All of this is so beyond off topic, we're just comparing GS pre-Durant to LeBron's Miami teams lol. Let's get into the simple facts.

1) If GS stayed as is, bringing back Barnes and Bogut, who we saw this year was pretty done, how many rings would you expect that group to end up with total? Total including the last two years. I think they would have won 2-3 rings over 4-5 years.

2) Now with Durant, what is your expectation on the total? I think they now can realistically win 5-6 over 7-8 years. To me, that's an enormous difference.

1. I have covered the perception and how at the time for Miami it isn't anything like you have been claiming or this version of GS. At the time they were percieved like the old GS and there is tons to back that up.

2. Yes, just because one player was on a team isn't comparable at all to joining a recent champion with the same core intact who just won 73 games straight and had a ton go wrong not to win the title last year. Sounds like we agree so don't get the point really, we know these guys are all greats and he was next to Shaq/role players and had that fantastic finals etc. All of these individuals were good/great but that is the point of joining GS, he joined an already proven TEAM. Thats a big reason why these are clearly different situations, he was joining a team that was winnging/setting records without him, he is jumping along for the ride instead of creating that team like Lebron did.

1. I think they were headed towards about maybe 3-4 it depends on the years you assume together because you changed it in the questions lol. I will say if we say 8 years for each they likely win 4.

2. I think they should win every year unless one team improves a lot to match their level somewhat. If they win 5-6 and he never has those incredible individual performances and isn't the clear leaders in majority then I really don't see a big bump into top level.

Will answer rest in depth later

Saddletramp
05-06-2017, 09:26 PM
No, actually what I did was point out how your post in no way addressed anything I said

Be surprised, friend

Lol, all right man. We'll just be going around in circles.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 09:57 PM
The reason I don't think KD will ever be Top 10 has nothing to do with how many rings or going to GS, it's because he simply hasn't played as good as the guys I have top 10 at his peak. So he'd have to play better than he ever has on GS to get Top 10. He could make a push from Top 25 (about where I have him now) to Top 15, because at his peak he could definitely be argued to have played as good as the top 15 guys.

That's fair enough.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 10:04 PM
1. I think they were headed towards about maybe 3-4 it depends on the years you assume together because you changed it in the questions lol. I will say if we say 8 years for each they likely win 4.

2. I think they should win every year unless one team improves a lot to match their level somewhat. If they win 5-6 and he never has those incredible individual performances and isn't the clear leaders in majority then I really don't see a big bump into top level.

Will answer rest in depth later

We can go around in circles on Miami forever, I'd rather just focus on Durant lol.

So ultimately we feel pretty similar about the situation, give or take a ring.

The years together was always a part of the equation. Between the upcoming FAs that are happening now, having to pay Barnes $20M to keep him last year, role players on the team aging, etc. That's one of the key factors of Durant making them better, in the long run.

Durant certainly hasn't been along for the ride tonight, right? :D

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 10:25 PM
Here are some of the issues with your stance in this comparison.

3) The talk of Durant joining a "73-win team" needs to calm down a bit. While it's mostly the same team, it wasn't exactly a straight up addition. They lost Barnes, Bogut, Speights, Barbosa, Ezeli and Rush for Durant, Zaza, West, McGee and rookie 2nd rounder McCaw. Yes, I'm aware that they overall gained more than they lost because of Durant, but it's not the "same team". They lost in other areas overall, they didn't straight improve down the line.

Likewise, the idea that LeBron joined some nothing team is also not true. While the team was mostly new, Wade, Chalmers, Haslem and Joel Anthony were key holdovers from a 47-win playoff team. Yeah, they lost Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal, but something tells me that the additions of LeBron and Bosh made up for that. Not to mention Mike Miller as a MLE signing and the hoard of vets that came cheap who were actually better than the depth that was in place beforehand.

The Warriors upgraded Harrison Barnes to Kevin Durant while weakening depth in some spots.

The Heat upgraded Michael Beasley to LeBron James and Jermaine O'Neal to Chris Bosh while completely improving their depth.

Can we stop acting like LeBron joined the Heat that won 15-games? They went from 47 wins to 58 in year 1. If Bosh happened to be there instead of O'Neal the year before with everything else playing out the same, how different is it really? You don't think 24 and 11 Bosh is worth 11 wins over 13 and 7 O'Neal? Maybe 8?

4) You've lumped in the entirety of their 4 years and have compared that to a 2 year run with GS. This ignores the effect that the wear and tear of 4 straight Finals, plus an Olympics, had on Wade and Bosh. This ignores the fact that Wade in particular had a pretty steep drop off in years 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2, a factor being that he doesn't have the meniscus in one of his knees since college. Instead of comparing the total, why not compare years 1 and 2 with years 1 and 2? Because, of course, this would greatly hurt your argument.

You can pretend that Wade wasn't a top 3 player at the time of that FA, while Klay or Green are nothing close. That's fine, it's just not true.

Wade averaged 24.5 pts, 7.1 reb, 4.4 ast, 1.6 stl, 1.3 blk and shot .485/.269/.777 with 8.5 FTA a game in their first postseason. This is the kind of production you would compare with someone like, oh I don't know, Kevin Durant. Hell, his production that postseason was on par with LeBron's and he even led the team in scoring. This is a big no no for you with you Durant and WB, right? You don't compare Dwyane Wade with Klay Thompson or Draymond Green. That's ridiculous. Do I even need to lay out his Finals vs Dallas? I feel like I do, if this is even being brought up. 26.5 pts, 7.0 reb, 5.2 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.5 blk shooting .546/.304/.694 with 8.2 FTA. Let me know when Klay or Green are ever on prime Dwyane Wade's level. Spoiler - it'll never happen.

You're also severely underrating Bosh's defense here. Yes, of course Green is a better defender, but Bosh was hardly a slouch. He was one of the best rim defenders and he was flat out the best PnR defending big in the NBA. Wade was also a far better defender than Klay is, to help make up that difference. **** man, the blueprint to use an athletic stretch 5 who can defend with a small ball stretch 4 is spawned from Bosh and LeBron/Battier in Miami lol.

There is no argument that Klay + Green > Wade + Bosh. You can get into Iggy and the rest, and that helps make up for it, but I've laid out multiple times how amazing Miami's supporting cast was in the two Finals they won so don't act like they were chopped liver either.

You keep avoiding 2011 like a plague, I guess because it was for LeBron. Bosh averaged 18.6 pts and 8.5 rebs that postseason. He also performed better than LeBron in that Finals. You keep talking about the help or that the perception of that team was an overreaction, but the fact is that the only reason why Miami underachieved was because LeBron choked in 2011. You can't erase that from history, no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

All of this is so beyond off topic, we're just comparing GS pre-Durant to LeBron's Miami teams lol. Let's get into the simple facts.


Edit: In the end I think you misinterpreted some of my points and what I say. We can agree Miami was a little bit better overall I wasn't arguing that GS was, just that it was close by all accounts with odds/perception/stats/impact and the context going into. Adding Durant after that fact and on that type of established team already is just the obvious difference to me and others that we just may never agree on.

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 10:27 PM
We can go around in circles on Miami forever, I'd rather just focus on Durant lol.

So ultimately we feel pretty similar about the situation, give or take a ring.

The years together was always a part of the equation. Between the upcoming FAs that are happening now, having to pay Barnes $20M to keep him last year, role players on the team aging, etc. That's one of the key factors of Durant making them better, in the long run.

Durant certainly hasn't been along for the ride tonight, right? :D

haha wish I had seen that before I spent the time on that post. Want me to delete it or something so it doesn't look like I'm taking jabs trying to get the last word or do you wanna respond?

lol, please
05-06-2017, 10:28 PM
The reason I don't think KD will ever be Top 10 has nothing to do with how many rings or going to GS, it's because he simply hasn't played as good as the guys I have top 10 at his peak. So he'd have to play better than he ever has on GS to get Top 10. He could make a push from Top 25 (about where I have him now) to Top 15, because at his peak he could definitely be argued to have played as good as the top 15 guys.

Please name 25 players better than Kevin Durant All-Time

:)

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 10:37 PM
We can go around in circles on Miami forever, I'd rather just focus on Durant lol.

So ultimately we feel pretty similar about the situation, give or take a ring.

The years together was always a part of the equation. Between the upcoming FAs that are happening now, having to pay Barnes $20M to keep him last year, role players on the team aging, etc. That's one of the key factors of Durant making them better, in the long run.

Durant certainly hasn't been along for the ride tonight, right? :D

Kinda but in the end it seems like you care more about his numbers/rings and I care more about seeing him dominate in an all time way like when Lebron was carrying those Heat teams. I know the perceptions and all that but the reason he actually moved up on the Heat is because he was the man, he lead in pts/assists/rebounds while getting top attention of the defense for series/playoffs while also being their best/most versatile defender (arguably). If Durant does those things to me it is how he proves he is a top 15 or better player and like Valade said in a sense I haven't seen enough of that level for me to put him there.

To me this team limits his opportunity to shine through individually like that. He will definitely get his every game and is very talented but will he have defenses changing how they guard the entire team to stop him on a somewhat regular basis? (To me thats Steph). Will he carry the team on his shoulders facing struggle/elimination and just dominating the court like no one else out there? I can go on and on but the point is I don't see how he separates himself like that on this team next to Curry and with Green carrying the other end you can actually question if he is the most influential on either side of the ball for this team. Time will tell but that is kinda where I am coming from with this is that it makes it really tough to see him shine like we did Lebron because of so much we have gone over and the situation this GS group is in now. The accolades and stuff aren't as important as seeing that to me, they are like a given almost lol (ps I really do have money on GS, I truly do believe they are locked in to win).

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 11:04 PM
haha wish I had seen that before I spent the time on that post. Want me to delete it or something so it doesn't look like I'm taking jabs trying to get the last word or do you wanna respond?

Lmao, no that's fine. We both have the right to our opinion and I think we both explain our viewpoints fairly. I don't think we'll ever meet in the middle on how good Miami was vs Golden State pre-Durant, but that's cool.

The only thing I want to clarify is I think you should have compared years 1 and 2 in Miami vs years 1 and 2 in GS. Lumping them all together makes Wade look way worse than he was, for example. Wade was their best player in their first postseason and I think that's a pretty important detail. His first 3 Finals with Miami are all better than either of Klay or Green's so far too. Wade is Wade man lol.

FOXHOUND
05-06-2017, 11:12 PM
Kinda but in the end it seems like you care more about his numbers/rings and I care more about seeing him dominate in an all time way like when Lebron was carrying those Heat teams. I know the perceptions and all that but the reason he actually moved up on the Heat is because he was the man, he lead in pts/assists/rebounds while getting top attention of the defense for series/playoffs while also being their best/most versatile defender (arguably). If Durant does those things to me it is how he proves he is a top 15 or better player and like Valade said in a sense I haven't seen enough of that level for me to put him there.

To me this team limits his opportunity to shine through individually like that. He will definitely get his every game and is very talented but will he have defenses changing how they guard the entire team to stop him on a somewhat regular basis? (To me thats Steph). Will he carry the team on his shoulders facing struggle/elimination and just dominating the court like no one else out there? I can go on and on but the point is I don't see how he separates himself like that on this team next to Curry and with Green carrying the other end you can actually question if he is the most influential on either side of the ball for this team. Time will tell but that is kinda where I am coming from with this is that it makes it really tough to see him shine like we did Lebron because of so much we have gone over and the situation this GS group is in now. The accolades and stuff aren't as important as seeing that to me, they are like a given almost lol (ps I really do have money on GS, I truly do believe they are locked in to win).

What did you think of Durant tonight? Did he dominate enough for you, or nah? lol

Maybe Durant has been such a great scorer for so long that you have taken him for granted, I don't know. Tonight was a game where Utah could have won and made this a series. With Curry going 6-20 and Klay going 1-9, Durant dominated from the jump going 15-26/4-8/4-4 for 38 points with 13 rebounds to rip out Utah's heart and effectively end this series. He seems alright, to me. Don't see him relaxing and going along for the ride any time soon.

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 11:48 PM
Lmao, no that's fine. We both have the right to our opinion and I think we both explain our viewpoints fairly. I don't think we'll ever meet in the middle on how good Miami was vs Golden State pre-Durant, but that's cool.

The only thing I want to clarify is I think you should have compared years 1 and 2 in Miami vs years 1 and 2 in GS. Lumping them all together makes Wade look way worse than he was, for example. Wade was their best player in their first postseason and I think that's a pretty important detail. His first 3 Finals with Miami are all better than either of Klay or Green's so far too. Wade is Wade man lol.

Ya I agree if we are talking perception then that was the version of Wade, but we had been done with the odds/perception talk for a while it had seemed. I was looking at the impact they had while next to Lebron overall because there is an injury that year and the GS guys aren't at their peak either yet anyways so it seemed more appropriate to me to get the full picture (and it isn't like I said because the numbers were that way it proved they were better, just pointing out you were clearly ignoring part of Greens impact).

If you want to point out that they fell off and were hurt/not playing as well etc after that is fine but only helps my point with the context of helping Lebron. It took those guys playing at that lesser level and Lebron clearly taking over for him to get that type of credit, something I don't see happening to Curry anytime soon unless there's an injury which we cant predict. Just another difference Durant has to make up.

Wade is definitely better than Green no doubt but all I was saying is the gap gets closed when you consider impact/fit on their respective teams if we are judging the team as a whole and why GS was seen/ranked that highly (stats back that up even if we bump Wade's a little by knocking off those lesser years to make his better, point was Green's numbers moreso anyways and they are over Bosh's either way too). GS had the better depth with Iggy to help cover the gap and overall again I am fine calling them a bit better overall too. It was just that they were somewhat similar, heck they even went 50% the last two years and set RS records as well over that time like those Heat were doing. Then Durant joined them for that run to come (I mean you even said yourself you expected them to win similar to me without him so everyone expected rings with or without him).

mngopher35
05-06-2017, 11:54 PM
What did you think of Durant tonight? Did he dominate enough for you, or nah? lol

Maybe Durant has been such a great scorer for so long that you have taken him for granted, I don't know. Tonight was a game where Utah could have won and made this a series. With Curry going 6-20 and Klay going 1-9, Durant dominated from the jump going 15-26/4-8/4-4 for 38 points with 13 rebounds to rip out Utah's heart and effectively end this series. He seems alright, to me. Don't see him relaxing and going along for the ride any time soon.

I didn't watch haha but maybe I will get the rerun later tonight when I am free in front of the TV. I don't take Durant for granted, I think you might overrate him a little bit though so we just disagree on him it seems. I get his incredible scoring it is the other aspects I question. He has gotten a lot better on defense recently so it's not like he is completely stuck where he is but again the influence/playmaking factor is very lacking to me. His playoff performances have been a bust the last couple years. I watched teams focus more on stopping his teammates than him in their gameplan. I just don't see this top 10 all time great really (yet) unless he improves and maintains that improvement clearly showing that level of leading a team. I think the situation he chose makes that very difficult to show overall.

I am sure it was an amazing game but on the whole it has seemed like Steph's team this year which is an issue for him if he wants that top credit given to stars. He needs to regularly outplay Steph like this to get it in a similar manner to those other greats imo (imma assume those numbers are wide enough to say he was best on court tonight lol).

FOXHOUND
05-07-2017, 01:27 AM
Ya I agree if we are talking perception then that was the version of Wade, but we had been done with the odds/perception talk for a while it had seemed. I was looking at the impact they had while next to Lebron overall because there is an injury that year and the GS guys aren't at their peak either yet anyways so it seemed more appropriate to me to get the full picture (and it isn't like I said because the numbers were that way it proved they were better, just pointing out you were clearly ignoring part of Greens impact).

If you want to point out that they fell off and were hurt/not playing as well etc after that is fine but only helps my point with the context of helping Lebron. It took those guys playing at that lesser level and Lebron clearly taking over for him to get that type of credit, something I don't see happening to Curry anytime soon unless there's an injury which we cant predict. Just another difference Durant has to make up.

Wade is definitely better than Green no doubt but all I was saying is the gap gets closed when you consider impact/fit on their respective teams if we are judging the team as a whole and why GS was seen/ranked that highly (stats back that up even if we bump Wade's a little by knocking off those lesser years, point was Green's numbers moreso anyways and they are over Bosh's either way too). GS had the better depth with Iggy to help cover the gap and overall again I am fine calling them a bit better overall too. It was just that they were somewhat similar, heck they even went 50% the last two years and set RS records as well over that time like those Heat were doing. Then Durant joined them for that run to come (I mean you even said yourself you expected them to win similar to me without him so everyone expected rings with or without him).

I just think it clearly slants Wade and Bosh downward as their production in year 1 vs 4 is drastically different. It's true Klay and Green maybe aren't in their prime yet, but it's not like they're all that young either. One things for sure, neither are close to the level of Wade. I don't ignore Green's impact on D, it's by far his best attribute. I do feel like you're ignoring Bosh's though, and maybe Wade's too by the sound of it.

I don't know man, I can see Curry having a fall off similar to Wade's. Maybe not as soon or drastic, but hard to say you never know. Wade had his knee issue without that meniscus, years of high level wear and tear and injuries that all added up with those long playoff runs. Curry isn't the physically dominant force Wade was though and has those ankle issues. He's also coming off back to back Finals runs to start already, where as Wade had a few years to recharge his body before Miami started up. His shot will never get worse but his ability to create enough separation to get off all of those tough quick shots eventually will. Curry's already 29, he's actually 6 months older than Durant and the same age as Wade when Miami started. I think Durant's game is going to age far better because of his physical advantages, so don't be so quick to assume that their partnership won't go similar to LeBron and Wade's.

Hmm, you lost me there. There is no scenario where the gap between Wade and Green is close. At least not prime Wade, which he still was in years 1 and 2. It's just comparing two completely different caliber of players. Wade was also a great defender and the defensive turnover to transition chemistry that he and LeBron had was reminiscent of the way Jordan and Pippen would torment teams. In fact, a lot of the things they did together as a wing duo was reminiscent of the way Jordan and Pippen would torment teams. Wade was better than LeBron in the 2010-11 postseason. Unless you're going to try and make the argument that Green was better than Curry in either of their playoff runs, stop putting their name in the same category of impact.

You're ignoring the role that Curry and LeBron play in that impact/fit section. If Curry was playing with Wade and Bosh, I don't see how or why either would really have had to adjust their games. They would have their general decline in production because there's only one ball and so many shots, but Curry already thrives in an offense where 3-4 players get the ball enough to produce at a high level. LeBron would 100% kill Green's GS game because he would never post or handle the ball enough to do what he does now. And of course, LeBron could never be the off the ball moving magnet and shooter that Curry is which is vital for Green's success. Klay would be fine, but he also relies on all of the movement, both player and ball, that they do. None of LeBron's offense have really been known for those. The pace and space was the closest thing but that still came down to a lot of ISO play with LeBron and Wade.

To me, that's maybe Curry's greatest strength as a player. That's how he closes the gap between players like LeBron or Durant who are better individual players when talking about dominant play and defense. Curry dominates individually plenty, don't get me wrong, but he doesn't have the ability to dominant like those kind of players can because they can do everything. What he has been able to do is dominate within the flow of a high ball movement and equal opportunity offense. That allows for every player to maximize their abilities while taking advantage of the attention he draws and his playmaking.

LeBron's dominance more comes in the individual sense, more than him actually elevating anyone's game. Of course he's great for role players on spot ups or on pick n rolls, especially back in the day on those, but for stars and particularly star bigs he's not really doing a whole lot for them. There's a long line of history of players joining LeBron and their production falling off a cliff because they get in line with LeBron ball. Bosh and Love went from being two of the best offensive bigs of their generation to being gradually turned into role players in LeBron ball. Don't ignore the context on that when evaluating players production.

Yes, there's no question that GS should have been expected to win at least one more ring without Durant. I think their depth would have been stripped enough to put a 3rd at jeopardy, especially since I'm not sure if they would have beaten Cleveland or not this year. It comes to the total difference. Winning 1 or 2 or even 3 with Durant may not make a huge difference. Depending on how it happens, of course. But if they get into that 4 or 5 or 6 range? Then yeah, there's really no argument against that.

One thing I know for sure from this conversation. You like LeBron more than I do and I like Durant more than you do. Lol. It's sad that both made such competitively weak decisions in their prime, but what can you do?

mngopher35
05-07-2017, 02:00 AM
I just think it clearly slants Wade and Bosh downward as their production in year 1 vs 4 is drastically different. It's true Klay and Green maybe aren't in their prime yet, but it's not like they're all that young either. One things for sure, neither are close to the level of Wade. I don't ignore Green's impact on D, it's by far his best attribute. I do feel like you're ignoring Bosh's though, and maybe Wade's too by the sound of it.

I don't know man, I can see Curry having a fall off similar to Wade's. Maybe not as soon or drastic, but hard to say you never know. Wade had his knee issue without that meniscus, years of high level wear and tear and injuries that all added up with those long playoff runs. Curry isn't the physically dominant force Wade was though and has those ankle issues. He's also coming off back to back Finals runs to start already, where as Wade had a few years to recharge his body before Miami started up. His shot will never get worse but his ability to create enough separation to get off all of those tough quick shots eventually will. Curry's already 29, he's actually 6 months older than Durant and the same age as Wade when Miami started. I think Durant's game is going to age far better because of his physical advantages, so don't be so quick to assume that their partnership won't go similar to LeBron and Wade's.

Hmm, you lost me there. There is no scenario where the gap between Wade and Green is close. At least not prime Wade, which he still was in years 1 and 2. It's just comparing two completely different caliber of players. Wade was also a great defender and the defensive turnover to transition chemistry that he and LeBron had was reminiscent of the way Jordan and Pippen would torment teams. In fact, a lot of the things they did together as a wing duo was reminiscent of the way Jordan and Pippen would torment teams. Wade was better than LeBron in the 2010-11 postseason. Unless you're going to try and make the argument that Green was better than Curry in either of their playoff runs, stop putting their name in the same category of impact.

You're ignoring the role that Curry and LeBron play in that impact/fit section. If Curry was playing with Wade and Bosh, I don't see how or why either would really have had to adjust their games. They would have their general decline in production because there's only one ball and so many shots, but Curry already thrives in an offense where 3-4 players get the ball enough to produce at a high level. LeBron would 100% kill Green's GS game because he would never post or handle the ball enough to do what he does now. And of course, LeBron could never be the off the ball moving magnet and shooter that Curry is which is vital for Green's success. Klay would be fine, but he also relies on all of the movement, both player and ball, that they do. None of LeBron's offense have really been known for those. The pace and space was the closest thing but that still came down to a lot of ISO play with LeBron and Wade.

To me, that's maybe Curry's greatest strength as a player. That's how he closes the gap between players like LeBron or Durant who are better individual players when talking about dominant play and defense. Curry dominates individually plenty, don't get me wrong, but he doesn't have the ability to dominant like those kind of players can because they can do everything. What he has been able to do is dominate within the flow of a high ball movement and equal opportunity offense. That allows for every player to maximize their abilities while taking advantage of the attention he draws and his playmaking.

LeBron's dominance more comes in the individual sense, more than him actually elevating anyone's game. Of course he's great for role players on spot ups or on pick n rolls, especially back in the day on those, but for stars and particularly star bigs he's not really doing a whole lot for them. There's a long line of history of players joining LeBron and their production falling off a cliff because they get in line with LeBron ball. Bosh and Love went from being two of the best offensive bigs of their generation to being gradually turned into role players in LeBron ball. Don't ignore the context on that when evaluating players production.

Yes, there's no question that GS should have been expected to win at least one more ring without Durant. I think their depth would have been stripped enough to put a 3rd at jeopardy, especially since I'm not sure if they would have beaten Cleveland or not this year. It comes to the total difference. Winning 1 or 2 or even 3 with Durant may not make a huge difference. Depending on how it happens, of course. But if they get into that 4 or 5 or 6 range? Then yeah, there's really no argument against that.

One thing I know for sure from this conversation. You like LeBron more than I do and I like Durant more than you do. Lol. It's sad that both made such competitively weak decisions in their prime, but what can you do?

lol you just went back into the same discussion, it seems like you keep twisting/ignoring things. I never said he was as good as Wade at his peak or anything only compared him to that 4 year version as a secondary player and the impact they had. If you don't think his impact could have been close to what Wade did in Miami over the entire stretch impact wise we might disagree on how good he can be (again I was comparing GS to that Miami team and what they actually did so why would we ignore it to 2 years to make it look better when we have the full sample? It is just you twisting things over and over). I am saying Durant hopping onto that Miami team that went 2/4 set that long wins streak etc in a general sense is similar to what I saw from that GS team if they hit their prime as expected together (and again you seem to agree about being on a similar pace championship wise so you can't be drastically off here). Yes Wade declined, Bosh had injuries etc but they gained more depth which was a nice boost and kept them pretty good with that decline (just like GS has/had depth to help make up for Green not being as good as Wade like I said). Again the entire point has been that GS team was more like that Miami team when Lebron was there, I am showing that using what we know actually happened over that time to the GS team.

Perception wise of Wade was way better we agree and I have shown the perception of each team as a whole and you kinda backed off but we can revisit those numbers from when they joined. When talking about what actually happened though I think GS is still very similar to what Miami actually did as a group is what I was saying and trying to point out with their impact #'s so again I just don't get why you keep pushing to ignore the entire set outside of it just helping your argument. We both agree they can win close to a 50% rate which is what Miami did right? So how can you be so far off in how good you think they are etc?

Edit just added your post and saw the ending added. I agree with your last statement but I don't feel like I am letting that affect me here as I have constantly gone to the odds/perception posts/stats etc while looking at the entire picture to back my point/opinion. I actually started out liking Durant because of Texas but Westy became my favorite on OKC.

mngopher35
05-07-2017, 02:17 AM
Hmm I just happened to think about Westy and Durant a little more and looked at their careers so far:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Russell+Westbrook&player_id1_select=Russell+Westbrook&y1=2017&player_id1=westbru01&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Durant&player_id2_select=Kevin+Durant&y2=2017&player_id2=duranke01

Durant:
RS:PER, WS/48, efficiency/ortg
PS:WS/48, efficiency/ortg
1 MVP
8 All Star
6 All NBA

Westy:
RS:BPM, generally better RPM and on/off numbers as mentioned previously, volume/usage
PS:PER, BPM, volume/usage
6 All Star
5 All NBA
1 MVP by the sounds of it

Now before anyone goes crazy no I am not about to say Westbrook is a better player than Durant etc. I will however point out how close it is statistically so far in their careers with the advanced/per game numbers and each seemingly having some advantages. On top of this it seems like Westy just matched him for an MVP.

It seems odd to me to say that I have seen this top 10 all time guy in Durant when overall in his career I am not sure I see some huge gap between him and Westbrook who probably isn't even in most top 30-40's (50's? 60's? higher?). Dunno if it will make anyone think twice about where they rank them or not but thought it was worth putting out there. Again Westy is not better than Durant lol.

FOXHOUND
05-07-2017, 03:50 AM
lol you just went back into the same discussion, it seems like you keep twisting/ignoring things. I never said he was as good as Wade at his peak or anything only compared him to that 4 year version as a secondary player and the impact they had. If you don't think his impact could have been close to what Wade did in Miami over the entire stretch impact wise we might disagree on how good he can be (again I was comparing GS to that Miami team and what they actually did so why would we ignore it to 2 years to make it look better when we have the full sample? It is just you twisting things over and over). I am saying Durant hopping onto that Miami team that went 2/4 set that long wins streak etc in a general sense is similar to what I saw from that GS team if they hit their prime as expected together (and again you seem to agree about being on a similar pace championship wise so you can't be drastically off here). Yes Wade declined, Bosh had injuries etc but they gained more depth which was a nice boost and kept them pretty good with that decline (just like GS has/had depth to help make up for Green not being as good as Wade like I said). Again the entire point has been that GS team was more like that Miami team when Lebron was there, I am showing that using what we know actually happened over that time to the GS team.

Perception wise of Wade was way better we agree and I have shown the perception of each team as a whole and you kinda backed off but we can revisit those numbers from when they joined. When talking about what actually happened though I think GS is still very similar to what Miami actually did as a group is what I was saying and trying to point out with their impact #'s so again I just don't get why you keep pushing to ignore the entire set outside of it just helping your argument. We both agree they can win close to a 50% rate which is what Miami did right? So how can you be so far off in how good you think they are etc?

Edit just added your post and saw the ending added. I agree with your last statement but I don't feel like I am letting that affect me here as I have constantly gone to the odds/perception posts/stats etc while looking at the entire picture to back my point/opinion. I actually started out liking Durant because of Texas but Westy became my favorite on OKC.

I'm not ignoring it, I thought I explained that I don't think comparing a 4 year run vs a 2 year run by averaging all the numbers is fair to Miami. 4 straight Finals trips + an Olympics will take a lot out of players. Green is 6'7 and playing a lot of center. Who is to say that a decline or injury wouldn't be in his future from that workload catching up? A big difference there is that Green isn't relied on to score. His workload in general is much lower than Wade's. And he's younger, that helps. Green already had a drop off this year, his efficiency went to ****. He's started this postseason hot but again, we're comparing production of one player who mostly has everything set up for him vs someone who was doing the setting up. Him being productive in his role in Golden State is not indicative of him succeeding in the same role in Miami. He certainly couldn't replace Wade's role and he was vital to their success.

I didn't back off, that stuff is kind of irrelevant. It's just deflecting from the real point. We know that Golden State with Durant is better than Miami. We also know that 4 is twice as big as 2. Everything is relative. I can't get past the idea that this team is going to win 4-6 rings and he isn't going to be one of the primary reasons why.

To the point of the thread title, you assume that he's just going to be along for the ride. Today was a great example of why that thinking is extremely short sighted or premature, just like it was when LeBron went to Miami. Again, that was my only initial comparison with the two - that perception. The only thing that's going to answer this is time. I think we've established where our belief in Durant is on this subject, so now all we can do is wait.

My last statement doesn't let me affect my viewing of LeBron either. At least, not more than it should. The fact that he had super stacked teams like he did should it affect it to an extent the same way it does Durant or anyone. The fact that he blew the 2011 Finals having such a super stacked team is a big note in my book, personally. Far worse than any of his losses during his first Cleveland stint. It's all relative.

Since we're dealing with hypothetical stuff with all this anyways, how about one of the opposite idea for once? When if in this years Finals, Klay continues to be solid but nothing special, Green continues to brick open 3's all day while having some horrible games and Curry once again plays eh and shoots 40%? What if in all of this, Durant plays up and leads the team in scoring, rebounding and blocks, like he did in the regular season, while having good assists and steals to lead them to victory as Finals MVP and clear best player? Then what? Where does all of this negative viewing hypothetical on Durant go? lol.

mngopher35
05-07-2017, 04:09 AM
I'm not ignoring it, I thought I explained that I don't think comparing a 4 year run vs a 2 year run by averaging all the numbers is fair to Miami. 4 straight Finals trips + an Olympics will take a lot out of players. Green is 6'7 and playing a lot of center. Who is to say that a decline or injury wouldn't be in his future from that workload catching up? A big difference there is that Green isn't relied on to score. His workload in general is much lower than Wade's. And he's younger, that helps. Green already had a drop off this year, his efficiency went to ****. He's started this postseason hot but again, we're comparing production of one player who mostly has everything set up for him vs someone who was doing the setting up. Him being productive in his role in Golden State is not indicative of him succeeding in the same role in Miami. He certainly couldn't replace Wade's role and he was vital to their success.

I didn't back off, that stuff is kind of irrelevant. It's just deflecting from the real point. We know that Golden State with Durant is better than Miami. We also know that 4 is twice as big as 2. Everything is relative. I can't get past the idea that this team is going to win 4-6 rings and he isn't going to be one of the primary reasons why.

To the point of the thread title, you assume that he's just going to be along for the ride. Today was a great example of why that thinking is extremely short sighted or premature, just like it was when LeBron went to Miami. Again, that was my only initial comparison with the two - that perception. The only thing that's going to answer this is time. I think we've established where our belief in Durant is on this subject, so now all we can do is wait.

My last statement doesn't let me affect my viewing of LeBron either. At least, not more than it should. The fact that he had super stacked teams like he did should it affect it to an extent the same way it does Durant or anyone. The fact that he blew the 2011 Finals having such a super stacked team is a big note in my book, personally. Far worse than any of his losses during his first Cleveland stint. It's all relative.

Since we're dealing with hypothetical stuff with all this anyways, how about one of the opposite idea for once? When if in this years Finals, Klay continues to be solid but nothing special, Green continues to brick open 3's all day while having some horrible games and Curry once again plays eh and shoots 40%? What if in all of this, Durant plays up and leads the team in scoring, rebounding and blocks, like he did in the regular season, while having good assists and steals to lead them to victory as Finals MVP and clear best player? Then what? Where does all of this negative viewing hypothetical on Durant go? lol.

It's what happened and what I was comparing to though, GS would have been together for 8 years in my scenario competing for titles and you were ok with my 4 number so doesn't same thing apply to them? I dunno this just makes like no sense to me tbh. I said it is like Durant joining a team like Miami with Lebron than what Lebron did. We agree that what Miami accomplished is right in line with what I said GS would accomplish just over a longer time (so according to you this is much harder right?). I am just comparing Green/Klay to those 4 year versions of Wade/Bosh next to Lebron because thats the team as a whole I compared GS too. I have the entire sample of seeing that team play and it fits in line with the type of team I think GS was (and it kinda seems like at least championship wise you do too). Also Curry was hurt last years playoffs it seemed to some extent, Bogut got hurt, Draymond suspended all which could have affected the team/stats/impact on the court/championship as well for them. I think if I compare that GS team to the Miami team with Lebron (that we saw and know how it all played out) then compare what they had done last two years (Curry becoming MVP level) directly to that Miami team (over the span we actually saw because thats what the comparison was) it makes a lot of sense. I totally agree Wade is better than Green overall. Yes if you want to show Wade is clearly better than Green like I have said he is that's fine to use those first two years as proof of that but that has never been my point lol.

What I have been saying is Durant joined a team more like the Heat with Lebron than doing what Lebron did. That's the entire point being made here not that Green is better than Wade. It seems you expected/were ok with them winning championships at a similar rate over a longer time than the Heat so I don't get how you are arguing this? It seems like you kinda agree in that sense...

As to your question if he does that AND Cle isn't clearly trying to stop Curry leaving open looks etc? It's a somewhat close series right so there is pressure? Huge win for him imo, it is a great start at changing things. I think we both agree it is possible, my point from the start has been I see at as unlikely given the situation. I see Curry like the Lebron if you will who is running things and has that "gravity" if you will and I think thats what the numbers kinda show too so far. One finals won't erase everything but if he maintained that for say 4 of the titles (if they win 6) ya he would move up a good bit (can't even begin to give a number on this but I think you get I agree with what you likely think to an extent). Like I said the entire context of the situation will need to be great for him like it worked out for Lebron 12-14 after the choke taking over completely and dominating the league/pressure wins and shots in playoffs/MVP/DPOY race/FMVP's. What you seem to be getting at sounds like a really good start for him towards some of that.

IMO that ends up hurting Curry though too right? To me that's what I think the end result of this is for one of them, Curry isn't leading the Warriors to 4 titles as the man anymore like in what I guessed earlier in this scenario.

mngopher35
05-07-2017, 03:54 PM
1. I think they were headed towards about maybe 3-4 it depends on the years you assume together because you changed it in the questions lol. I will say if we say 8 years for each they likely win 4.

2. I think they should win every year unless one team improves a lot to match their level somewhat. If they win 5-6 and he never has those incredible individual performances and isn't the clear leaders in majority then I really don't see a big bump into top level.

Will answer rest in depth later

We can go around in circles on Miami forever, I'd rather just focus on Durant lol.

So ultimately we feel pretty similar about the situation, give or take a ring.

The years together was always a part of the equation. Between the upcoming FAs that are happening now, having to pay Barnes $20M to keep him last year, role players on the team aging, etc. That's one of the key factors of Durant making them better, in the long run.

Durant certainly hasn't been along for the ride tonight, right? :D

Ok so I watched the replay now and first want to say yes. In general that's the type of Durant/dominating I am saying needs to be the regular for him. Not just a game or series but clearly that guy for the season/entire playoffs etc. obviously he doesn't have to be quite that good but the later game type of attention was great to see IMO.

With that said I think even in just one game you can see the gravity of curry for the team and how they use their talent to get mismatches on Durant and let him go at it. This situation is so perfect for a scorer like him to get great looks/opportunities to help him statistically and that isn't even getting into open looks in general the team creates. Not saying it kills his performance and he never gets credit just saying that what I had been talking about was also evident somewhat earlier on.

Late in the game when he was killing it and got mismatches they started to bring help across the paint/doubling/not leaving as much space on picks etc. instead of letting him go 1v1 or guarding his teammates. When he still kills it against that treatment like this game but he is constantly keyed in on it would help his case a ton IMO.

blams
05-07-2017, 03:59 PM
Not winning the finals with that team would be an enormous indictment. Winning the finals , meh. They absolutely should.



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lol, please
05-14-2017, 07:18 PM
Not winning the finals with that team would be an enormous indictment. Winning the finals , meh. They absolutely should.



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Give credit when due, winning the a championship is an achievement.

kyubi256
05-14-2017, 07:28 PM
*If Curry leads them to a title...

THE MTL
05-14-2017, 07:31 PM
It does nothing to his legacy as far as being amongst the best of all time. Matter of fact, I think he really tarnished him ever being considered in the Top 15 of all time.

LOb0
05-14-2017, 07:34 PM
Give credit when due, winning the a championship is an achievement.

Its as much achievement as winning a team USA medal at this point for Durant. A team that would be far better than anyone else regardless if he plays or not.

lol, please
05-14-2017, 07:46 PM
Its as much achievement as winning a team USA metal at this point for Durant. A team that would be far better than anyone else regardless if he plays or not.

But why should we ignore a statistically significant post season run by a player just because his teammates are really good?

:confused:

WaDe03
05-14-2017, 07:47 PM
But why should be ignore a statistically significant post season run by a player just because his teammates are really good?

:confused:

Because you literally can't build a defensive scheme for him and he's on a stacked *** team. It's just common sense.

Btw, "I did what I had to do" sounds dirty as ****

Saddletramp
05-14-2017, 08:53 PM
Yeah, no idea if that picture of ZaZa smiling is from today or not but that smile and that quote after what happened today just screams "I know exactly what I was doing: hurting their top dog." Funny that a guy that doesn't think it was purposeful or dirty is putting that quote/smile out there. No other reason to point it out.




Well, trolling is another reason; and we all know that's exactly what he's doing.

lol, please
05-14-2017, 08:58 PM
Yeah, no idea if that picture of ZaZa smiling is from today or not but that smile and that quote after what happened today just screams "I know exactly what I was doing: hurting their top dog." Funny that a guy that doesn't think it was purposeful or dirty is putting that quote/smile out there. No other reason to point it out.




Well, trolling is another reason; and we all know that's exactly what he's doing.

havin a little fun, lol.

he also said it wasn't dirty but I wanted to isolate the quote and purposely take it out of context, see...nastynice has been bathing in Warriors' haters tears, and I need a shower, so we need to open up those faucets.

:)

Saddletramp
05-14-2017, 09:18 PM
havin a little fun, lol.

he also said it wasn't dirty but I wanted to isolate the quote and purposely take it out of context, see...nastynice has been bathing in Warriors' haters tears, and I need a shower, so we need to open up those faucets.

:)


He said he wasn't dirty? You remind me of the people who believe everything Trump says just because Trump says it.
Calling out a dirty play equals tears that you enjoy. About what I'd expect from some of you guys.

lol, please
05-14-2017, 09:24 PM
He said he wasn't dirty? You remind me of the people who believe everything Trump says just because Trump says it.
Calling out a dirty play equals tears that you enjoy. About what I'd expect from some of you guys.

When has Zaza given you a reason to flat out "not buy" what he says?

:confused:

he was asked straight up and he gave an honest response.

Trump as an example is a poor one dude he was a presidential candidate and politics in general is full of deception etc.

WE HAVE THE FOOTAGE of the game lol, Zaza isn't going to lie about anything.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-14-2017, 09:27 PM
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar zaaaaaazzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Saddletramp
05-14-2017, 09:27 PM
This isn't going to go anywhere. Keep on trollin'.

lol, please
05-14-2017, 09:32 PM
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar zaaaaaazzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

lol yes

:laugh2:

lol, please
05-14-2017, 09:33 PM
This isn't going to go anywhere. Keep on trollin'.

all jokes aside can we at least agree that calling the Warriors dirty is overblown?

Saddletramp
05-14-2017, 09:34 PM
When has Zaza given you a reason to flat out "not buy" what he says?

:confused:

he was asked straight up and he gave an honest response.

Trump as an example is a poor one dude he was a presidential candidate and politics in general is full of deception etc.

WE HAVE THE FOOTAGE of the game lol, Zaza isn't going to lie about anything.

ZaZa's been one of the dirtiest players in the league for years. And you really think he (or anyone in that situation) would say that they intentionally put their foot out to possibly have their opponent land on it?


I'm playing this argument with two handicaps here. 1) You'll report to the mods if I say what I'm really thinking and 2) I'm debating with someone that



Damnit, I can't say what I'm really thinking because of reason #1.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-14-2017, 09:35 PM
Yea, overblown. Only Green and Zaza is dirty. Rest of the Warriors are generally fine.

kdspurman
05-14-2017, 09:39 PM
Not as high as Zaza..

:hide:

Saddletramp
05-14-2017, 09:51 PM
all jokes aside can we at least agree that calling the Warriors dirty is overblown?

Not as long as Green and ZaZa are there. No friggin' way.

FlashBolt
05-14-2017, 10:44 PM
Spurs win if Zaza doesn't do that dirty play. +23 and -21 on/off is pretty damn scary. That's a 44 net rating. Honestly pathetic move by this piece of trash. League needs to suspend the dude.

lol, please
05-14-2017, 10:50 PM
Literally no evidence the Spurs win this game lol.

Warriors have come back from such deficits before and should be expected to. How do you not give the benefit of the doubt the the (significantly) better team?

kdspurman
05-14-2017, 11:30 PM
Literally no evidence the Spurs win this game lol.

Warriors have come back from such deficits before and should be expected to. How do you not give the benefit of the doubt the the (significantly) better team?

Pop had over like 300 wins and 0 losses with that type of lead at half time until today. SA is not a team that blows big leads, especially in the playoffs

Jamiecballer
05-14-2017, 11:33 PM
Its as much achievement as winning a team USA metal at this point for Durant. A team that would be far better than anyone else regardless if he plays or not.
This is a pretty great comparison as far as I'm concerned

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lol, please
05-14-2017, 11:34 PM
Pop had over like 300 wins and 0 losses with that type of lead at half time until today. SA is not a team that blows big leads, especially in the playoffs
That's true, and apparently it's also the first time a team of his ever blows a lead that big in the playoffs.

At the same time we've never seen a team like the Warriors, but I see your point.

kdspurman
05-14-2017, 11:35 PM
Spurs win if Zaza doesn't do that dirty play. +23 and -21 on/off is pretty damn scary. That's a 44 net rating. Honestly pathetic move by this piece of trash. League needs to suspend the dude.

I saw Curry getting hot to start the 3rd and thought they were about to do their big run thing. Yet despite the crowd getting into it, the lead was still at 20+. Kawhi and co. Kept answering their runs.

This was the game for us to steal. They were playing so smart all game to that point too. Sigh.

Chronz
05-15-2017, 11:12 AM
Honest Q. When was the last time a ring meant so little to such a great players legacy?

Congrats KD, you've finally proven capable of climbing that mountain, all it took was such unprecedented favorable circumstances you literally broke projection systems and created the first team in history to be favored in PRESEASON higher than even the 97 Bulls who CAME into the season as 72-Win champions.......


If GS had struggled along the way I might have considered dropping him in my rankings but you can't deny the juggernaut they've been. The Kawhai injuries have really sapped the competition tho

Chronz
05-15-2017, 11:15 AM
I saw Curry getting hot to start the 3rd and thought they were about to do their big run thing. Yet despite the crowd getting into it, the lead was still at 20+. Kawhi and co. Kept answering their runs.

This was the game for us to steal. They were playing so smart all game to that point too. Sigh.

You only get so many of those too. Im prolly going to lose the long parlay I had going today just because its so hard to be in position to win on the road. I had a feeling Washington was the better team but they squandered those 2 close games to start the series and prolly lose this in 7. If they win tho, the payout is yuge.

nastynice
05-15-2017, 11:26 AM
Honest Q. When was the last time a ring meant so little to such a great players legacy?

o

Magic? Kareem? Worthy?

lol

Lebron's heat? lmao!!!

WaDe03
05-15-2017, 11:29 AM
Magic? Kareem? Worthy?

lol

Lebron's heat? lmao!!!

This is on a completely different level than what LeBron did. KD joined a team that went 73-9 and lost in the finals in 7, LeBron joined a team that lost in the first round and was a 1 man team before he got there.

nastynice
05-15-2017, 11:38 AM
This is on a completely different level than what LeBron did. KD joined a team that went 73-9 and lost in the finals in 7, LeBron joined a team that lost in the first round and was a 1 man team before he got there.

Oh, I'm not sure how long you've been watching basketball for so maybe it was before your time. But that heat team actually had other superstars on it, Bosh had just come over from Toronto

It was a crazy summer, it was dubbed "the decision" lol

But winds change, and now the decision finna get dubbed :nod: lmao

mngopher35
05-15-2017, 11:45 AM
I am curious how people saw his performance yesterday? All time great level performance due to good stats and a win?

FlashBolt
05-15-2017, 11:45 AM
lol, you guys didn't put nastynice on ignore yet? worse than lol, please at this point. I might have to burn my computer if you guys keep quoting him. my eyes bleed reading his nonsense.

mngopher35
05-15-2017, 11:46 AM
Lol he was like this last year too

celtNYpatsHeels
05-15-2017, 11:48 AM
This is on a completely different level than what LeBron did. KD joined a team that went 73-9 and lost in the finals in 7, LeBron joined a team that lost in the first round and was a 1 man team before he got there.

Lebron (best player in the league) went to someone else's team (wade's). Wade was a top 3 or 4 player in the league at the time. And he brought his friend, Bosh, with him who was also a top 10 player in the league at the time. It's different, but it's the same

As for Durant 1 ring on THIS team doesn't change his legacy. Multiple rings would. Or a ring or two would if he were to leave and go to a different team where he was the clear lead dog

FlashBolt
05-15-2017, 11:50 AM
Lebron (best player in the league) went to someone else's team (wade's). Wade was a top 3 or 4 player in the league at the time. And he brought his friend, Bosh, with him who was also a top 10 player in the league at the time. It's different, but it's the same

As for Durant 1 ring on THIS team doesn't change his legacy. Multiple rings would. Or a ring or two would if he were to leave and go to a different team where he was the clear lead dog

1) That team he went to was poopoo and got eliminated in the first round.
2) Miami didn't win a championship the year prior nor did they break the NBA reg season record.
3) It's not the same at all. The same would be LeBron going to the Celtics - not the Cavs. Imagine LeBron+PP+Garnett+Ray+Rondo. That's the equivalent.

lol, please
05-15-2017, 12:01 PM
Lol he was like this last year too

Last year he was on the Thunder.