PDA

View Full Version : Lebron/Jordan/KG/Drob/Dream vs. Magic/Kobe/Tmac/Duncan/Kareem!!!



IKnowHoops
04-27-2017, 03:16 AM
PG Lebron
SG Mike
SF KG
PF Drob
C Dream

vs

PG Magic
SG Kobe
SF Tmac
PF Duncan
C Kareem

In LOL please thread, this is my first and second string units when I can't have Shaq or Durant out there.

Looking at them, I see goo arguments for which lineup is actually better. Which team you got in a 7 game series?

More-Than-Most
04-27-2017, 04:00 AM
Lebron/MJ/Dream are 3 of my top 6 players ever... Id go with them without question. I love Magic but his defense is poo poo... Kobe and Tmac can they actually Co-Exist? I look at the defense of the top unit.. KG/DROB/Bron/MJ are all insane defenders... Easily that team.

PurpleLynch
04-27-2017, 06:47 AM
Lebron/MJ/Dream are 3 of my top 6 players ever... Id go with them without question. I love Magic but his defense is poo poo... Kobe and Tmac can they actually Co-Exist? I look at the defense of the top unit.. KG/DROB/Bron/MJ are all insane defenders... Easily that team.

I don't want to sound like a homer,but Magic's bad defense is a myth. He was not slow nor fast on defense,he had troubles with smaller and quicker guards also for his size,that's why he guarded the opponent forward most of the time;he had anyway a high IQ,a plus on the defensive boards and he patrolled in an excellent way the perimeter for steals. Now,if you point guard is Lebron,things could be different since they have almost the same size(just for the sake of discussing your thread). It's not all the picture,but just a fact to let myself explain better: he was 7th in defensive win shares one year and 56th of all time(now I can't say,didn't check the stats for a lot,like 4-5 years). Not and elite or dominant defender,absolutely not,but far less negative than from what people remember of him.

Quinnsanity
04-27-2017, 07:17 AM
I stopped reading when I saw "SF: KG"

Heediot
04-27-2017, 09:15 AM
team one has killer defense but piss poor spacing.

Team two more well rounded and has a legit shot based on how the teams are constructed not talent.

LA4life24/8
04-27-2017, 12:18 PM
KG and Tmac as the 3s? No bird or Scottie?

Also ill take most scenarios like this basically whoever has jordan as long as the teams are mostly evenly distributed talent wise. Team 1 in 6

IKnowHoops
04-27-2017, 01:20 PM
I stopped reading when I saw "SF: KG"

It amazes me how many people are ignorant to the fact that KG played SF for the Wolves for years, and was also the best defender of small forwards of all-time. Just when you were impressing me you go and do this.

IKnowHoops
04-27-2017, 01:22 PM
KG and Tmac as the 3s? No bird or Scottie?

Also ill take most scenarios like this basically whoever has jordan as long as the teams are mostly evenly distributed talent wise. Team 1 in 6

Well first off, we can't use Bird. But I like KG defense and versatility over Bird. I like prime Tmac over prime Scottie.

LA4life24/8
04-27-2017, 01:44 PM
Well first off, we can't use Bird. But I like KG defense and versatility over Bird. I like prime Tmac over prime Scottie.

Why no bird? Is there some stipulation i missed?

Hawkeye15
04-27-2017, 02:32 PM
I don't want to sound like a homer,but Magic's bad defense is a myth. He was not slow nor fast on defense,he had troubles with smaller and quicker guards also for his size,that's why he guarded the opponent forward most of the time;he had anyway a high IQ,a plus on the defensive boards and he patrolled in an excellent way the perimeter for steals. Now,if you point guard is Lebron,things could be different since they have almost the same size(just for the sake of discussing your thread). It's not all the picture,but just a fact to let myself explain better: he was 7th in defensive win shares one year and 56th of all time(now I can't say,didn't check the stats for a lot,like 4-5 years). Not and elite or dominant defender,absolutely not,but far less negative than from what people remember of him.

Magic was a poor individual defender, his intelligence made him a decent team defender however. Of course he was a positive on the boards, he was the size of a PF and had a knack for the ball. The Lakers also steered rebounds his way at times, because the faster the ball got in his hands to lead transition, the better. The Lakers had guys who could defend the guard/wing positions, Magic was typically splitting time between lead/off guard on defense. While he wasn't Barkley level of ineptitude, Magic was probably the worst defender of this top 11 all time, where he sits.

kdspurman
04-27-2017, 02:47 PM
The spacing for the first team is not that good.. Trying to finish around TD/Kareem is no easy feat, so there would have to be some reliable outside shooting. I know KG is a very capable mid range shooter, and Dream/D-Rob could knock it down... Lebron, you live with him shooting mid range/3's. And without proper spacing, one has to wonder how effective his drive and kick game would be.

If I'm team 2, maybe throw Magic on KG vs putting him on Lebron/MJ.

I feel like team 2 fits better together, while team 1 has the obvious advantage with their defensive flexibility and backcourt.

kdspurman
04-27-2017, 02:47 PM
team one has killer defense but piss poor spacing.

Team two more well rounded and has a legit shot based on how the teams are constructed not talent.

Pretty much exactly my thoughts as well.

Hawkeye15
04-27-2017, 02:50 PM
the spacing on both teams sucks....

Chronz
04-27-2017, 02:52 PM
Tmac's team

Quinnsanity
04-27-2017, 04:05 PM
It amazes me how many people are ignorant to the fact that KG played SF for the Wolves for years, and was also the best defender of small forwards of all-time. Just when you were impressing me you go and do this.

Basketball Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html) estimates that he played 1% of his career at small forward, and it only lists him there for two seasons, one at 2% and one at 6%. I know they don't have his full career, but it goes back to his age-24 season, so that's pretty far. And even if you're right... you're seriously picking skinny neophyte KG for your team over the fully grown monster he became? Like ok, maybe he could've defended small forwards consistently when he was younger, I don't think so, especially not one of T-Mac's quality, but let's say he could. Why on Earth are you choosing that KG over the version that won MVP as a pretty definitive big man.

Also... best defender of small forwards of all-time? What in the holy ****? Have you not heard of Scottie Pippen? Kawhi Leonard? I have so many names for you, jesus. KG is one of the best defensive bigs of all time. I'd even call him a top-10 defensive player of all time. But no, he is not better at defending perimeter players than Pippen or Kawhi or LeBron or Bowen or so many other guys.

FlashBolt
04-27-2017, 09:36 PM
both teams have terrible spacing.. i'm not sure why some of you think that team 2 has an advantage there. These questions are a good read but when you have that many GOAT's in a game, no one has a distinct advantage over another.

IKnowHoops
04-28-2017, 03:11 AM
Lebron/MJ/Dream are 3 of my top 6 players ever... Id go with them without question. I love Magic but his defense is poo poo... Kobe and Tmac can they actually Co-Exist? I look at the defense of the top unit.. KG/DROB/Bron/MJ are all insane defenders... Easily that team.

With Magic running the show, yes they can.

IKnowHoops
04-28-2017, 03:37 AM
[QUOTE=Quinnsanity;31589512]Basketball Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html) estimates that he played 1% of his career at small forward, and it only lists him there for two seasons, one at 2% and one at 6%. I know they don't have his full career, but it goes back to his age-24 season, so that's pretty far. And even if you're right... you're seriously picking skinny neophyte KG for your team over the fully grown monster he became? Like ok, maybe he could've defended small forwards consistently when he was younger, I don't think so, especially not one of T-Mac's quality, but let's say he could.

Your just ignorant thats all. This is a truly ignorant post. Not calling you stupid or dumb. But you are very ignorant in this post and you are showing that you really have no idea what you are talking about. Here ya go, i'll give it to you straight from the horses mouth.


http://articles.latimes.com/2002/nov/02/sports/sp-nba2
"That's the best I've ever been defended," McGrady said. "Ever."


Why on Earth are you choosing that KG over the version that won MVP as a pretty definitive big man.


Again man you just don't know what you are talking about. KG did this in 2002. He won the MVP the very next year. He was already a beast and he was locking down TMAC. I am taking the MVP version!


Also... best defender of small forwards of all-time? What in the holy ****? Have you not heard of Scottie Pippen? Kawhi Leonard? I have so many names for you, jesus. KG is one of the best defensive bigs of all time. I'd even call him a top-10 defensive player of all time. But no, he is not better at defending perimeter players than Pippen or Kawhi or LeBron or Bowen or so many other guys.

So many other huh? LOLOLOLOL. Really man, this is just a subject you don't know d--- about. You were not watching Wolves games on the regular during KG's prime and really you should just stop talking on the subject.
I mean you dont think he can guard Tmac, yet Tmac says its the best he's ever been defended. There is a huge knowledge gap on this particular subject and your not going to be able to make it up anytime soon. Kahwai, Lebron, Scotty, they will all guard a PG better than KG, but KG will do to a SF what they do to PG. Make them feel really small and take away all there regular angles and keep up with them enough to be right there every time.

I'm not mad at you because you just don't know, but please stop because you don't know.

eso
04-28-2017, 07:45 AM
I'll take team 3

John Stockton
Dwade
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Arvidous Sabonis

Quinnsanity
04-28-2017, 12:54 PM
[QUOTE]

Your just ignorant thats all. This is a truly ignorant post. Not calling you stupid or dumb. But you are very ignorant in this post and you are showing that you really have no idea what you are talking about. Here ya go, i'll give it to you straight from the horses mouth.


http://articles.latimes.com/2002/nov/02/sports/sp-nba2
"That's the best I've ever been defended," McGrady said. "Ever."



Again man you just don't know what you are talking about. KG did this in 2002. He won the MVP the very next year. He was already a beast and he was locking down TMAC. I am taking the MVP version!



So many other huh? LOLOLOLOL. Really man, this is just a subject you don't know d--- about. You were not watching Wolves games on the regular during KG's prime and really you should just stop talking on the subject.
I mean you dont think he can guard Tmac, yet Tmac says its the best he's ever been defended. There is a huge knowledge gap on this particular subject and your not going to be able to make it up anytime soon. Kahwai, Lebron, Scotty, they will all guard a PG better than KG, but KG will do to a SF what they do to PG. Make them feel really small and take away all there regular angles and keep up with them enough to be right there every time.

I'm not mad at you because you just don't know, but please stop because you don't know.

You're using one quote by one player to determine that one of the best defensive bigs of all time would be better used on the perimeter? For God's sake, I could find plenty of games in which T-Mac was worse than that one KG game. He went 4-of-20 for 16 points against the Nets a month later. Nobody's calling Richard Jefferson the best perimeter defender of all time. It's one game. I'm sure T-Mac has a ton of respect for KG, and rightfully so, and KG had just defended him very well. Of course he'd say something like that. The next time T-Mac played KG that same season he scored 30 on 52% from the field. I'm sure he was singing a different tune after that game.

You're making it out like I'm insulting KG. I'm not, he really is one of the best defensive players of all time. But it's ****ing ridiculous to say "this great defensive big man was ALSO the best defender of small forwards ever." That's not saying he could never defend small forwards at times. It's saying that it's a ridiculous statement and wasteful of the great defense he played at power forward and center. LeBron could play center on defense, but that doesn't mean I'm saying he's better at it than Hakeem or Russell. It's insulting to all of the great defensive small forwards who have ever played in the league to say "KG was better at their jobs than them despite not doing it for most of his career." You have literally every small forward in NBA history to pick from for this fictional matchup you've concocted and you put KG out of position. Don't call me ignorant for saying that. Kevin Garnett was a power forward first and a center second. He may have been a small forward third, but that's a distant third, and if you had him on your team it'd be wasteful to play him there knowing how good he was at PF and C. Excuse me for using basic historical context and the 13-15 years of his career that I DID see rather than pulling up tape of the '96 Timberwolves. It's common sense. He is not better at defending small forwards than Pippen, or Kawhi, or LeBron, or Bowen, or Bobby Jones, or Shawn Marion, or Ron Artest, or even to include another PF who could defend SFs, Dennis Rodman. You're using one quote after one really good game to undersell the incredible careers of several legendary defenders.

krazylegz
04-28-2017, 01:16 PM
lebron and jordan would crush any 5 mortal men

archdevil84
04-28-2017, 01:52 PM
lebron and jordan would crush any 5 mortal men

this, i cant see those 2 on the same team losing to whatever the other team has

IKnowHoops
04-28-2017, 09:54 PM
[QUOTE=IKnowHoops;31593644]

You're using one quote by one player to determine that one of the best defensive bigs of all time would be better used on the perimeter? For God's sake, I could find plenty of games in which T-Mac was worse than that one KG game. He went 4-of-20 for 16 points against the Nets a month later. Nobody's calling Richard Jefferson the best perimeter defender of all time. It's one game. I'm sure T-Mac has a ton of respect for KG, and rightfully so, and KG had just defended him very well. Of course he'd say something like that. The next time T-Mac played KG that same season he scored 30 on 52% from the field. I'm sure he was singing a different tune after that game.

You're making it out like I'm insulting KG. I'm not, he really is one of the best defensive players of all time. But it's ****ing ridiculous to say "this great defensive big man was ALSO the best defender of small forwards ever." That's not saying he could never defend small forwards at times. It's saying that it's a ridiculous statement and wasteful of the great defense he played at power forward and center. LeBron could play center on defense, but that doesn't mean I'm saying he's better at it than Hakeem or Russell. It's insulting to all of the great defensive small forwards who have ever played in the league to say "KG was better at their jobs than them despite not doing it for most of his career." You have literally every small forward in NBA history to pick from for this fictional matchup you've concocted and you put KG out of position. Don't call me ignorant for saying that. Kevin Garnett was a power forward first and a center second. He may have been a small forward third, but that's a distant third, and if you had him on your team it'd be wasteful to play him there knowing how good he was at PF and C. Excuse me for using basic historical context and the 13-15 years of his career that I DID see rather than pulling up tape of the '96 Timberwolves. It's common sense. He is not better at defending small forwards than Pippen, or Kawhi, or LeBron, or Bowen, or Bobby Jones, or Shawn Marion, or Ron Artest, or even to include another PF who could defend SFs, Dennis Rodman. You're using one quote after one really good game to undersell the incredible careers of several legendary defenders.

He later held Tracy to 4pts.

Anyway, I'm arguing with a guy who has proven he doesn't know what he's talking about. You talk about what little I've shown yet your rebut tell is " I don't think he could".

This may surprise you, but Tmac saying "that's the best I've ever been guarded", carries a bit more weight than you unsubstantiated "I don't think he could".

Quinnsanity
04-28-2017, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE=Quinnsanity;31594292]

He later held Tracy to 4pts.

Anyway, I'm arguing with a guy who has proven he doesn't know what he's talking about. You talk about what little I've shown yet your rebut tell is " I don't think he could".

This may surprise you, but Tmac saying "that's the best I've ever been guarded", carries a bit more weight than you unsubstantiated "I don't think he could".

And you think one quote by one player after one game outweighs the entire careers of guys like Pippen and Kawhi? It's common ****ing sense. It's like you're saying Ed Reed was better at man-to-man coverage than every cornerback who ever lived. Want a fun fact, in that game you're referring to, T-Mac went 6-of-15 for 18 points. Around 10 months earlier, Pippen held T-Mac to 6-of-17 for 17 points, and this is ancient 36-year-old Pippen. So if you're allowed to use one quote to make your dumb point, I'm allowed to use one game to make my better point.

IKnowHoops
04-28-2017, 11:54 PM
[QUOTE=IKnowHoops;31596629]

And you think one quote by one player after one game outweighs the entire careers of guys like Pippen and Kawhi? It's common ****ing sense. It's like you're saying Ed Reed was better at man-to-man coverage than every cornerback who ever lived. Want a fun fact, in that game you're referring to, T-Mac went 6-of-15 for 18 points. Around 10 months earlier, Pippen held T-Mac to 6-of-17 for 17 points, and this is ancient 36-year-old Pippen. So if you're allowed to use one quote to make your dumb point, I'm allowed to use one game to make my better point.


Funny thing is Kobe said KG guarded him better than anyone as well.

So now I have the two greatest wing scorers of there generation saying KG guarded them the best. And you have "I don't think he could"

Yeah it means a lot when the two best scorers of there generation say he's the hardest to score on.

Quinnsanity
04-29-2017, 12:08 AM
[QUOTE=Quinnsanity;31597458]


Funny thing is Kobe said KG guarded him better than anyone as well.

So now I have the two greatest wing scorers of there generation saying KG guarded them the best. And you have "I don't think he could"

Yeah it means a lot when the two best scorers of there generation say he's the hardest to score on.

In 2000 a 35-year-old Pippen held Kobe to 4-of-11 for 14 points.

Also, Kobe has said on the record that Tony Allen (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/12/4/9849402/kobe-bryant-interview-kobe-stopper) was his hardest defender. Not sure where you're getting that quote, I can't find it anywhere. If it does exist, I'm willing to bet it was right after a game, in the heat of the moment.

Things like that happen all of the time, and it's why players opinions tend not to be worth all that much. They're horribly diluted by sample, come with insane biases, and are often offered before the player has any chance to reflect on it. MJ said he'd put James Worthy on his all-time team. Forget top five, I'm not convinced James Worthy is a top-50 player of all time. But Worthy went to college with him. Oscar Robertson said that Buddy Hield was a better all-around player than Stephen Curry. Kobe and KG came up in the NBA at the same time, were the two main pioneers of going to the draft from high school of their era and likely got to know each other through endorsements and NBA events. It wouldn't surprise me if Kobe would toss KG a bone like that.

Again, this is all common sense. It would simply be incredibly hard for someone of Garnett's size to guard small forwards as well as the best players ever to do it. Guys like Pippen and Kawhi were built in a lab to defend that position, they have the ideal size and speed necessary to bother those guys. I'm not saying "Kevin Garnett absolutely under no circumstance could have guarded small forwards," I'm saying it's monumentally stupid to suggest that someone who was that big could have done it as well as smaller guys like Pippen and Kawhi, who were faster but still had the size necessary to handle those guys.

LOb0
04-29-2017, 12:10 AM
Jordan, LeBron and Hakeem? This is a stomp.