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View Full Version : LBJ: Top ten in career playoff points, assists, rebounds and steals



JasonJohnHorn
04-17-2017, 08:15 PM
No other player is in the top ten for pts, asts, and rebounds (Bird was at the time of his retirement), and what's more, LBJ is in the top FIVE in pts, asts and steals (not likely to get that high on rebounds) and is likely about two post season runs from being in the top-twenty for blocks.

Crazy thing is, he's likely got another 4 or 5 years of legit all-star level play in him. Barring injury, his playoff accomplishments are likely going to be unreachable, at least with respect to the overall career highs.

More-Than-Most
04-17-2017, 08:54 PM
Doesnt matter... He didnt have pipper/rodman/kerr/harper etc etc etc phil etc etc etc and never went into the finals outside of maybe 2 years as the actual better team so he will always be known as a cry baby who needs all the help

More-Than-Most
04-17-2017, 08:55 PM
Seriously he will end up top 2 all time and the possibility of goat depending on if he can win 1 or 2 more rings... I dont think he will win any more rings so he likely ends up 2nd but if I am starting a team there is nobody i am taking over this guy

ewing
04-17-2017, 09:08 PM
His team jumping completely nullifies this stat


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ewing
04-17-2017, 09:09 PM
Seriously he will end up top 2 all time and the possibility of goat depending on if he can win 1 or 2 more rings... I dont think he will win any more rings so he likely ends up 2nd but if I am starting a team there is nobody i am taking over this guy

Do you think Steve Kerr was really good?


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valade16
04-17-2017, 09:34 PM
Do you think Steve Kerr was really good?

At what he was asked to do (shoot 3's)? Absolutely. Overall, absolutely not.

JasonJohnHorn
04-17-2017, 09:43 PM
His team jumping completely nullifies this stat


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Does it nullify Kareem's numbers too? You know... jumping from the Bucks to the Lakers? Or Wilt's? Jumping from the Sixers to the Lakers? Or Shaq's? Jumping from the Magic to the Lakers to the Heat?

They all had the advantage of going from one contender to another, and people don't seem to hate on them or discount their totals based on those reasons.

JasonJohnHorn
04-17-2017, 09:53 PM
Do you think Steve Kerr was really good?


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Jordan had Pippen, who was every bit as good as Wade (likely better than the Wade LBJ played with), and Jordan also had Rodman, who I would argue had more of an impact on the floor than Bosh. Couple with those HOFers, he also had Toni K. and Ron Harper (Harper was a border-line All-Star and Toni was a stellar player at the time).

Plus Jordan had a rotation of great 12th men/roll players like Kerr (steller 3pt shooter), Randy Brown (lock-down defender) and championship big men like John Salley, James Edwards, and Robert Parish. He also had Bison Dele.

Looking at the team: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Dele, Kerr. I'd say that was more stacked than LBJ's Heat roster. At least as stacked.

Jordan also had the benefit of officials performing feliatio on him during games and giving him back rubs during timeouts. If officials called games straight up, we likely would have seen the Knicks in the finals in 92, and the Pacers in 98. Bulls would have certainly won in 91 and 96, but those other four years are up for grabs if the officials weren't protecting the league's cash cow (Bulls merchandise made up over 80% of the leagues revenue, and given the DRAMATIC dip in ratings for the finals in 94 and 95, it seems clear that having the Bulls in the finals was essential for the strength of the league).

But yeah... Kerr wasn't that good.

Also Knicks man... I respect your loyalty to your team. I hope this drama passes over soon and the Knicks get back on the right track.

Heediot
04-17-2017, 10:15 PM
Harper declined hard at least offensively when he hit Chicago, that was the season MJ came back, but he olayed 2/3 of the year without MJ and couldn't muster 10 PPG. Once MJ came back it went down even further.

Rodman's game aged well but he was like mid 30's or older in the three peat run. Dude just outsmarted and wanted it more on the glass and defensively then anyone else.

The bulls bench had a bunch of big bodies to foul shaq, a couple of three pint specialists, a couple of defensive specialist and Kukoc. That's the truth. This was for the 2nd three peat. I was too young to remember hpow the first three peat bench fared.

The Bulls didn't have more talent, they had better chemistry and coaching which made the talent seem better. the cast also played better off of Jordan vs. how some of the cast plays off of Lebron in Miami and later Cleveland. Just like the Spurs didn't have more talent then the heat, they just had a better coached and better fit/chemistry team. I think the Heat and later Cavs were just as stacked as all the historical teams. LeBron had the advantage of signing more ring chasers after buy outs and in free agency then Jordan ever could. It's just the fit hasn't always been perfect or there were flaws exposed by the specialists that signed with James. I'm not going to say the Bulls had more or less, but James had as much help as one could ask for. I'll give James this though he did play more tougher opponents in the finals, but on the Other hand Jordan never lost as a favorite in the finals either.

Heediot
04-17-2017, 10:22 PM
Back to topic. That's damn impressive. I don' think he ever missed a playoff game either, maybe he has the playoff iron man record, or did he miss one that slipped my mind?

europagnpilgrim
04-18-2017, 12:32 AM
Lebron was going to do damage for years after posting a rookie season of 20/6/6 fresh out of HS

he is basically doing what I say all the best players do rookie yr and going forward and be lucky enough to smell enough playoff appearances annually

he is a top 20 lock best to ever do it and where you rank him anywhere in that top 20 is your prerogative, to each its own

the nba is in a bind when trying to pick the next man/player up to take out Lebron in Eastern conference, not many really move needle as far as storylines, only team that had a chance was Boston when they were linked to Butler/George, and they are trying to do it with the Greek Freak but if Boston is willing to dump those picks for a package of Butler and George then you will finally see a major shakeup out East with the storylines to match, a Golden st/Boston Finals would be sick and something to get people excited about, that is if Golden st. keeps the core in tact and can pay both KD/Curry super max deals

the nba is all about storylines/sensationalism and it started way back in the 60's with Russell/Wilt, 70's was really a one man show in Jabbar then the 80's had Bird/Magic with Zeke/Jordan/Drexler as co stars then the 90's Jordan basically owned with Hakeem/Barkley/Seattle squad, 00's had Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/AI with KG/Dirk/Nash and few others as co stars and now the Lebron/Wade era with KD/Curry era on deck with Bucks/Celtics and a couple other teams lurking in the woods

IKnowHoops
04-18-2017, 06:05 AM
Lebron was going to do damage for years after posting a rookie season of 20/6/6 fresh out of HS

he is basically doing what I say all the best players do rookie yr and going forward and be lucky enough to smell enough playoff appearances annually

he is a top 20 lock best to ever do it and where you rank him anywhere in that top 20 is your prerogative, to each its own

the nba is in a bind when trying to pick the next man/player up to take out Lebron in Eastern conference, not many really move needle as far as storylines, only team that had a chance was Boston when they were linked to Butler/George, and they are trying to do it with the Greek Freak but if Boston is willing to dump those picks for a package of Butler and George then you will finally see a major shakeup out East with the storylines to match, a Golden st/Boston Finals would be sick and something to get people excited about, that is if Golden st. keeps the core in tact and can pay both KD/Curry super max deals

the nba is all about storylines/sensationalism and it started way back in the 60's with Russell/Wilt, 70's was really a one man show in Jabbar then the 80's had Bird/Magic with Zeke/Jordan/Drexler as co stars then the 90's Jordan basically owned with Hakeem/Barkley/Seattle squad, 00's had Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/AI with KG/Dirk/Nash and few others as co stars and now the Lebron/Wade era with KD/Curry era on deck with Bucks/Celtics and a couple other teams lurking in the woods

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::lau gh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh 2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::lau gh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh 2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::lau gh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh 2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

More-Than-Most
04-18-2017, 06:47 AM
Lebron was going to do damage for years after posting a rookie season of 20/6/6 fresh out of HS

he is basically doing what I say all the best players do rookie yr and going forward and be lucky enough to smell enough playoff appearances annually

he is a top 20 lock best to ever do it and where you rank him anywhere in that top 20 is your prerogative, to each its own

the nba is in a bind when trying to pick the next man/player up to take out Lebron in Eastern conference, not many really move needle as far as storylines, only team that had a chance was Boston when they were linked to Butler/George, and they are trying to do it with the Greek Freak but if Boston is willing to dump those picks for a package of Butler and George then you will finally see a major shakeup out East with the storylines to match, a Golden st/Boston Finals would be sick and something to get people excited about, that is if Golden st. keeps the core in tact and can pay both KD/Curry super max deals

the nba is all about storylines/sensationalism and it started way back in the 60's with Russell/Wilt, 70's was really a one man show in Jabbar then the 80's had Bird/Magic with Zeke/Jordan/Drexler as co stars then the 90's Jordan basically owned with Hakeem/Barkley/Seattle squad, 00's had Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/AI with KG/Dirk/Nash and few others as co stars and now the Lebron/Wade era with KD/Curry era on deck with Bucks/Celtics and a couple other teams lurking in the woods

Lmfao... Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.... Even the most nasty haters have him top 8 with realistic people that understand the sport and what he has done have him top 5... There is no argument for him outside the top 8.... by the time it is all said and done he will be the goat or top 2.. there is no argument sorry... top 20? just stop

europagnpilgrim
04-18-2017, 09:13 AM
:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::lau gh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh 2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::lau gh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh 2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::lau gh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh 2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Are you still in Pre school?

top 20 means 1-20, reading is fundamental, overstanding is knowledge

europagnpilgrim
04-18-2017, 09:18 AM
Lmfao... Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.... Even the most nasty haters have him top 8 with realistic people that understand the sport and what he has done have him top 5... There is no argument for him outside the top 8.... by the time it is all said and done he will be the goat or top 2.. there is no argument sorry... top 20? just stop

I always have rooted for Lebron, pre NBA

once again you guys don't overstand basic reading skills, top 20 means 1-20, so you can have in not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7(Lebron Miami speech), he can be ranked anywhere from 1-20 as I stated if you guys quit being over emotional creatures about your boyfriend and read correctly, if he is top 8 then that's where they have him, if he is top 3 then that's where you have him, its in the top 20, correct?

Hawkeye15
04-18-2017, 09:26 AM
Are you still in Pre school?

top 20 means 1-20, reading is fundamental, overstanding is knowledge

Even a LeBron hater wouldn't put him outside the top 10 currently, let alone at the end of his career.

I still don't think he can catch Jordan. But he can easily land in my 2nd tier, with Wilt/KAJ, by career end. Guy is the best I have seen since Jordan, and I am not seeing anyone right now that will catch him in the youth of the NBA.

europagnpilgrim
04-18-2017, 10:17 AM
Even a LeBron hater wouldn't put him outside the top 10 currently, let alone at the end of his career.

I still don't think he can catch Jordan. But he can easily land in my 2nd tier, with Wilt/KAJ, by career end. Guy is the best I have seen since Jordan, and I am not seeing anyone right now that will catch him in the youth of the NBA.

I have no problem where people rank him, top 10 is being in the top 20 best players ever to lace'em up, its a honor to be put in the box with the best 20 players ever in any sport, its why I said you can rank him where you feel

Wilt is in Tier 1 easily, as with Jabbar, Jordan is not alone in any tier over those two, if anything Wilt is in his own tier, dude owns the record books, Jabbar had the most impressive/dominant HS-NCAA-NBA career(combined) with Wilt right there

Jordan/Jabbar/Wilt are in the top 20 box for best players ever, where you rank them is your prerogative from 1 through 20, if they fall in your top 5 then that means its 15-17 more slots to fill in with the other players you feel should be there

Hawkeye15
04-18-2017, 10:28 AM
I have no problem where people rank him, top 10 is being in the top 20 best players ever to lace'em up, its a honor to be put in the box with the best 20 players ever in any sport, its why I said you can rank him where you feel

Wilt is in Tier 1 easily, as with Jabbar, Jordan is not alone in any tier over those two, if anything Wilt is in his own tier, dude owns the record books, Jabbar had the most impressive/dominant HS-NCAA-NBA career(combined) with Wilt right there

Just know most people consider a HUGE difference between LeBron James, and Julius Erving or Kevin Garnett, so saying "top 20" is pretty weak to be honest. But you have the right to your opinion.

Yet, you fight for 3 guys who are all top 5 haha.

So, Jordan's numbers, accolades, playoff dominance, dominance of peers, can't be argued against. Wilt just didn't win enough, and didn't achieve enough success. His individual play was outstanding, as dominant as anyone, but he just didn't put forth the resume of Jordan. KAJ was fantastic, owned the 70's. His longevity was incredible. But again, didn't stack up in many areas to Jordan, and quite frankly was never as dominant for the stretch Jordan was. KAJ's NCAA accomplishments mean nothing when ranking him as an NBA player.

Jordan

Wilt/KAJ

Shaq/Duncan/LeBron

Magic/Kobe/Bird/Russell/Hakeem

those are my tiers. LeBron will move to tier 2 by career end.

FlashBolt
04-18-2017, 10:56 AM
Saying LeBron is top 20 means he can go anywhere from 1-20. That's just absurd. He's a top 5 or top ten (if you want to be that guy) easily. You know who else is in the top 20? Dirk Nowitzki. And you're just being unreasonable if you stick LeBron and Dirk in the same 1-20 ranking.

prodigy
04-18-2017, 11:00 AM
Does it nullify Kareem's numbers too? You know... jumping from the Bucks to the Lakers? Or Wilt's? Jumping from the Sixers to the Lakers? Or Shaq's? Jumping from the Magic to the Lakers to the Heat?

They all had the advantage of going from one contender to another, and people don't seem to hate on them or discount their totals based on those reasons.

Or MJ's? lets remember he jumped to the white sox.

this arguement is so dumb. Lebron won with wade. Jordon won with Scottie. Bulls teams were better then the heat teams. Team hopping or not whats the point? I just don't get it. Not like he was Durant going to a 73 win heat team with 3 stars and back to back finals with 1 ship.

Vee-Rex
04-18-2017, 11:16 AM
LeBron is gonna go down as a top 2 all time. If people wanna say top 5 - fine. Top 10 is pushing it.

The debate between MJ and LeBron is real. Idk, man... at this point I'd give it to MJ because of career achievements but who knows how that will end up years from now.

LeBron has had a jumper all year this year and his jumper is still going so far in the playoffs. Other than a decrease in his speed and leaping ability he hasn't declined at all. You can't trap him either - no team ever traps LeBron successfully. He's absolutely unstoppable. Absolutely.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2017, 11:28 AM
LeBron is gonna go down as a top 2 all time. If people wanna say top 5 - fine. Top 10 is pushing it.

The debate between MJ and LeBron is real. Idk, man... at this point I'd give it to MJ because of career achievements but who knows how that will end up years from now.

LeBron has had a jumper all year this year and his jumper is still going so far in the playoffs. Other than a decrease in his speed and leaping ability he hasn't declined at all. You can't trap him either - no team ever traps LeBron successfully. He's absolutely unstoppable. Absolutely.

The Mavs series killed his chances of catching Jordan for me. Jordan also never lost to a team lesser than his. Did it take fortunate circumstances for Jordan here and there? Sure. But he just closed every single time he needed to. LeBron has failed at that, badly in the Mavs series, and even though we all know his Cavs teams weren't very good (**** the win total, any moron should realize he was the reason they were piling up 60 wins with a **** cast), he had some teams favored to win that lost series.

Maybe his longevity creates an argument later. Maybe he goes on to win 2-3 more titles, and a couple more finals MVP's, and this discussion actually becomes valid, idk. But for me personally, his chance at catching Jordan probably died in June, 2011.

Vee-Rex
04-18-2017, 04:25 PM
The Mavs series killed his chances of catching Jordan for me. Jordan also never lost to a team lesser than his. Did it take fortunate circumstances for Jordan here and there? Sure. But he just closed every single time he needed to. LeBron has failed at that, badly in the Mavs series, and even though we all know his Cavs teams weren't very good (**** the win total, any moron should realize he was the reason they were piling up 60 wins with a **** cast), he had some teams favored to win that lost series.

Maybe his longevity creates an argument later. Maybe he goes on to win 2-3 more titles, and a couple more finals MVP's, and this discussion actually becomes valid, idk. But for me personally, his chance at catching Jordan probably died in June, 2011.

Yeah, I feel all of that.

Even LeBron himself said he's chasing the ghost of Jordan so he's pretty aware that he's behind and may never catch it. It'll be fun to see how it all ends.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2017, 04:34 PM
Yeah, I feel all of that.

Even LeBron himself said he's chasing the ghost of Jordan so he's pretty aware that he's behind and may never catch it. It'll be fun to see how it all ends.

while I don't pull for LeBron like I used to (was indifferent till the haters pounced, now it's cooled since his legacy is set basically), but I generally like watching LeBron play, and generally like him, so fine with me if he wins more chips/MVP's.

europagnpilgrim
04-18-2017, 07:03 PM
Just know most people consider a HUGE difference between LeBron James, and Julius Erving or Kevin Garnett, so saying "top 20" is pretty weak to be honest. But you have the right to your opinion.

Yet, you fight for 3 guys who are all top 5 haha.

So, Jordan's numbers, accolades, playoff dominance, dominance of peers, can't be argued against. Wilt just didn't win enough, and didn't achieve enough success. His individual play was outstanding, as dominant as anyone, but he just didn't put forth the resume of Jordan. KAJ was fantastic, owned the 70's. His longevity was incredible. But again, didn't stack up in many areas to Jordan, and quite frankly was never as dominant for the stretch Jordan was. KAJ's NCAA accomplishments mean nothing when ranking him as an NBA player.

Jordan

Wilt/KAJ

Shaq/Duncan/LeBron

Magic/Kobe/Bird/Russell/Hakeem

those are my tiers. LeBron will move to tier 2 by career end.

Fighting for 3 guys in the top 5 means they are in the box of 20 best players ever, if you rank them 1-2-3 it still means they are in the top 20 and you have to fill out the list with 17 players

like I said Jordan-Wilt-Jabbar and Lebron are top 20 best players ever, with so many players in the history of the league that is extraordinary accomplishment, as it would be for the best nfl players and mlb and so on

europagnpilgrim
04-18-2017, 07:06 PM
Saying LeBron is top 20 means he can go anywhere from 1-20. That's just absurd. He's a top 5 or top ten (if you want to be that guy) easily. You know who else is in the top 20? Dirk Nowitzki. And you're just being unreasonable if you stick LeBron and Dirk in the same 1-20 ranking.

Dirk wouldn't be in my top 20 best players to ever do it so it wouldn't mean nothing to me, so you are being unreasonable for putting Dirk in the best 20 players ever, disrespecting your boyfriend Lebron to the fullest

I can name easily 19 players better than Dirk since the nba started in 1946(or something like that)

Chronz
04-18-2017, 08:08 PM
Fighting for 3 guys in the top 5 means they are in the box of 20 best players ever, if you rank them 1-2-3 it still means they are in the top 20 and you have to fill out the list with 17 players

like I said Jordan-Wilt-Jabbar and Lebron are top 20 best players ever, with so many players in the history of the league that is extraordinary accomplishment, as it would be for the best nfl players and mlb and so on
Yeah I'm with you. I personally have both mj and wilt in my top 1000

JordansBulls
04-18-2017, 11:58 PM
Top 5 all time and in my top 4. Tough to get to that Russell/Kareem/MJ level.

More-Than-Most
04-19-2017, 12:22 AM
like hawk said if you put him as Goat you need to answer the mavs series debate and its impossible... he needs 2 more rings plus all the accolades because of that mavs series.... he choked so hard it was sad to see.

europagnpilgrim
04-19-2017, 12:32 AM
Yeah I'm with you. I personally have both mj and wilt in my top 1000

Good for you, I bet you got Blake Griffin there as well, and probably some who played for the San Diego Clippers, now where do you have MJ and Wilt ranked, 998 and 999 respectively? I got MJ&Wilt in the upper part of that 20 circle, where you got CP3 ranked in that top 1000, 997? where you got Shaq Lakers version 996? where you rank Shaq Orlando version outside your top 1000?

throw in Vinny Del Negro in there as well since I am sure you think he is a top 1000 coach all time

you guys really are butt hurt over Lebron being in the circle of best 20 players ever in nba history, damn I think that is remarkable

europagnpilgrim
04-19-2017, 12:37 AM
like hawk said if you put him as Goat you need to answer the mavs series debate and its impossible... he needs 2 more rings plus all the accolades because of that mavs series.... he choked so hard it was sad to see.

if you basing it off one measley series to discredit him why stop there, why not against the Magic/Howard or against the Celtics or the Spurs in 14', why not discredit Jordan for getting swept out early and not being able to win a title his first 6yrs or vs the Magic/Shaq? Jordan lost to the Bucks in there as well early on, you guys don't even know how to fully judge/rank players, I could tell by you all getting bent out of shape for me saying Lebron was in the best ever 20 player circle and I said you could rank him anywhere you like within that 20, meaning he could be 1st or 3rd or 7th or 12th and so on, reading is fundamental

to me Lebron was one of the best 20 players ever after his rookie year straight out of HS, it didn't take winning titles and other non sense to see that at all, that was basic to see especially if he would do that for at least 10yrs, which he has done easily

IKnowHoops
04-19-2017, 03:57 AM
like hawk said if you put him as Goat you need to answer the mavs series debate and its impossible... he needs 2 more rings plus all the accolades because of that mavs series.... he choked so hard it was sad to see.

Yeah he can't ever have that Mavs series back. But he will also do some things that nobody including Jordan has never done so all that will have to be taken into account. We can't just think about the bad and dismiss the good. In 8 years, when Lebron is 40, if he's still dropping 25,7,7 on great efficiency and a top 3 player in the league, then I'm not going to say he can't win because of one series (in which I feel he was paid off or something). I'll way everything, and if Lebron was still putting up unbelievable numbers at 40 while already holding the scoring record by about 3000 pts, and getting closer to all the records day by day, I would have to pause, because it is something that Jordan simply could not do. Lebron is a machine and his longevity and durability is something he has on everyone thus far.

IKnowHoops
04-19-2017, 04:11 AM
if you basing it off one measley series to discredit him why stop there, why not against the Magic/Howard or against the Celtics or the Spurs in 14', why not discredit Jordan for getting swept out early and not being able to win a title his first 6yrs or vs the Magic/Shaq? Jordan lost to the Bucks in there as well early on, you guys don't even know how to fully judge/rank players, I could tell by you all getting bent out of shape for me saying Lebron was in the best ever 20 player circle and I said you could rank him anywhere you like within that 20, meaning he could be 1st or 3rd or 7th or 12th and so on, reading is fundamental

to me Lebron was one of the best 20 players ever after his rookie year straight out of HS, it didn't take winning titles and other non sense to see that at all, that was basic to see especially if he would do that for at least 10yrs, which he has done easily

I actually couldn't agree more.

I get your explanation for your top 20, but since I have never heard it put like that, because it sounds obviously vague, it will continue to sound funny.

He's so obviously in the top 20 that it shouldn't even be said. Guys like KG, Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Malone, Robinson are the guys who you would say are top 20, because its not obvious. You don't reinforce obvious things. You would reinforce Lebron is top 2, or top 3, or top 5.

What if when Usain Bolt won the Gold medal, they only announced him as a top 5 finisher, instead of the Gold medalist? When have you ever heard of a top 3 guy referred to as a top 20 guy first.

I remember Chris Webber referred to Lebron as the Chosen One, then called Mike Black Jesus. He would of been laughed off the stage had he referred to them as "Lock top 20 players all-time" Really?...Really?...Lebron is a lock to be top 20?...Extra extra breaking news. Again, I heard your explanation, but you are trying to be inclusive and group 20 players together when there are clearly definitive levels between 1 and 20...so much so that it sounds silly to PROCLAIM a top 3 guy as a top 20 guy.

I hope you understand this.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2017, 10:36 AM
Fighting for 3 guys in the top 5 means they are in the box of 20 best players ever, if you rank them 1-2-3 it still means they are in the top 20 and you have to fill out the list with 17 players

like I said Jordan-Wilt-Jabbar and Lebron are top 20 best players ever, with so many players in the history of the league that is extraordinary accomplishment, as it would be for the best nfl players and mlb and so on

All I mean is, there is a difference between the pocket of 1-5 players, and 15-20. Like a huge one. There is a MONSTER difference between Michael Jordan and Kevin Garnett.

FlashBolt
04-19-2017, 10:37 AM
Dirk wouldn't be in my top 20 best players to ever do it so it wouldn't mean nothing to me, so you are being unreasonable for putting Dirk in the best 20 players ever, disrespecting your boyfriend Lebron to the fullest

I can name easily 19 players better than Dirk since the nba started in 1946(or something like that)

Woah, boyfriend? Don't be upset, pal. Your terminology is totally fishy. Like Chronz said, I'm a top 6 billion basketball player in the world. So is Jordan. Don't get me started about your weird infatuation with Wilt.. They said he slept with 1000 females.... Are you one of them?

Hawkeye15
04-19-2017, 10:38 AM
Good for you, I bet you got Blake Griffin there as well, and probably some who played for the San Diego Clippers, now where do you have MJ and Wilt ranked, 998 and 999 respectively? I got MJ&Wilt in the upper part of that 20 circle, where you got CP3 ranked in that top 1000, 997? where you got Shaq Lakers version 996? where you rank Shaq Orlando version outside your top 1000?

throw in Vinny Del Negro in there as well since I am sure you think he is a top 1000 coach all time

you guys really are butt hurt over Lebron being in the circle of best 20 players ever in nba history, damn I think that is remarkable

remove LeBron's name. What people are saying is, or at least me, there is a huge difference between #4 and #19. Like huge. So grouping them together is going to get you blasted.

FlashBolt
04-19-2017, 10:39 AM
All I mean is, there is a difference between the pocket of 1-5 players, and 15-20. Like a huge one. There is a MONSTER difference between Michael Jordan and Kevin Garnett.

The guy hates LeBron. I don't know how he doesn't see that his terminology of ranking is way off but he tries to play it off. There's a consensus among everyone these days that LeBron is easily top ten. Leaving him outside of it and saying he's a top 20 player basically means he ranks LeBron anywhere from 1-20th. Considering KG and maybe even Dirk are top 20 players, there's no question he just hates LeBron.

FlashBolt
04-19-2017, 10:41 AM
Good for you, I bet you got Blake Griffin there as well, and probably some who played for the San Diego Clippers, now where do you have MJ and Wilt ranked, 998 and 999 respectively? I got MJ&Wilt in the upper part of that 20 circle, where you got CP3 ranked in that top 1000, 997? where you got Shaq Lakers version 996? where you rank Shaq Orlando version outside your top 1000?

throw in Vinny Del Negro in there as well since I am sure you think he is a top 1000 coach all time

you guys really are butt hurt over Lebron being in the circle of best 20 players ever in nba history, damn I think that is remarkable

No, it's like us saying "Wilt is a top 20 player." Yes, he is. But you're making it seem as if he isn't greater than just a "top 20 player." Wilt is a top five and easily top ten player. The separation of talent and greatness outside of the top 10 is easily identifiable.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2017, 10:42 AM
if you basing it off one measley series to discredit him why stop there, why not against the Magic/Howard or against the Celtics or the Spurs in 14', why not discredit Jordan for getting swept out early and not being able to win a title his first 6yrs or vs the Magic/Shaq? Jordan lost to the Bucks in there as well early on, you guys don't even know how to fully judge/rank players, I could tell by you all getting bent out of shape for me saying Lebron was in the best ever 20 player circle and I said you could rank him anywhere you like within that 20, meaning he could be 1st or 3rd or 7th or 12th and so on, reading is fundamental

to me Lebron was one of the best 20 players ever after his rookie year straight out of HS, it didn't take winning titles and other non sense to see that at all, that was basic to see especially if he would do that for at least 10yrs, which he has done easily

team losses need to be looked at individually. Like were LeBron's Cleveland teams ever really the best team in the NBA? No, they weren't. They shouldn't have been expected to win a title, therefore LeBron shouldn't be penalized for not winning one in his first 7 years. Jordan, same thing. He didn't have the roster his first 7 years. But, when he DID have the roster, guess what? He never lost again. That is why he gets the nod from people. Not just his team winning, but how they did it, and how he played during that span. Do we really expect a Jordan led team with Charles Oakley as his 2nd best player to compete for a chip? Do we really expect a LeBron led team with Mo Williams as his 2nd best player to compete for a chip?

Judging a players career can't happen until there is either a mountain of evidence (meaning not early in their career), or it ends all together. LeBron is far enough along now to throw his ranking out there.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2017, 10:45 AM
The guy hates LeBron. I don't know how he doesn't see that his terminology of ranking is way off but he tries to play it off. There's a consensus among everyone these days that LeBron is easily top ten. Leaving him outside of it and saying he's a top 20 player basically means he ranks LeBron anywhere from 1-20th. Considering KG and maybe even Dirk are top 20 players, there's no question he just hates LeBron.

it's a justification method for ranking is all. And that is fine I suppose. Can't get mad at me for saying LeBron is top 20, when I say Jordan is too...

FlashBolt
04-19-2017, 10:51 AM
it's a justification method for ranking is all. And that is fine I suppose. Can't get mad at me for saying LeBron is top 20, when I say Jordan is too...

I do get that but when there's a consensus among a player being top 10 compared to top 20, it's silly to say they are top 20. Why stop at 20? LeBron is a top 100 player.. or top 1000. I mean, technically he isn't wrong but it proves absolutely nothing by saying he's top 20 when he's a lock for top 10. I'm not even sure he genuinely thinks LeBron is even top 10. IMO, he would leave him out. That's just absurd. There's no justification for him being outside the top 10 unless you're one of THOSE guys.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2017, 11:07 AM
I do get that but when there's a consensus among a player being top 10 compared to top 20, it's silly to say they are top 20. Why stop at 20? LeBron is a top 100 player.. or top 1000. I mean, technically he isn't wrong but it proves absolutely nothing by saying he's top 20 when he's a lock for top 10. I'm not even sure he genuinely thinks LeBron is even top 10. IMO, he would leave him out. That's just absurd. There's no justification for him being outside the top 10 unless you're one of THOSE guys.

I like the tier system better honestly. And there are people who truly value certain things more than others. As long as they are consistent, so be it. I may not agree with it, but if someone dings a player for leaving in FA, and he does it for every player who ever left in FA for instance, so be it.

valade16
04-19-2017, 11:10 AM
Good for you, I bet you got Blake Griffin there as well, and probably some who played for the San Diego Clippers, now where do you have MJ and Wilt ranked, 998 and 999 respectively? I got MJ&Wilt in the upper part of that 20 circle, where you got CP3 ranked in that top 1000, 997? where you got Shaq Lakers version 996? where you rank Shaq Orlando version outside your top 1000?

throw in Vinny Del Negro in there as well since I am sure you think he is a top 1000 coach all time

you guys really are butt hurt over Lebron being in the circle of best 20 players ever in nba history, damn I think that is remarkable

Wilt and Shaq are both Top 20. Kareem is top 20 too.

prodigy
04-19-2017, 01:16 PM
Lebron is no question a top 5 player ever. I'm sorry i love the fact many people have different opinions. But to say anything otherwise is straight garbage. Hate the man all you want, but don't disrespect his game. I do believe hes the best all around player to ever play and 2nd best period.

Jeffy25
04-19-2017, 01:57 PM
I always have rooted for Lebron, pre NBA

once again you guys don't overstand basic reading skills, top 20 means 1-20, so you can have in not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7(Lebron Miami speech), he can be ranked anywhere from 1-20 as I stated if you guys quit being over emotional creatures about your boyfriend and read correctly, if he is top 8 then that's where they have him, if he is top 3 then that's where you have him, its in the top 20, correct?

Oh, so is he one of the 8000 best players ever?

Jeffy25
04-19-2017, 02:06 PM
The Mavs series killed his chances of catching Jordan for me. Jordan also never lost to a team lesser than his. Did it take fortunate circumstances for Jordan here and there? Sure. But he just closed every single time he needed to. LeBron has failed at that, badly in the Mavs series, and even though we all know his Cavs teams weren't very good (**** the win total, any moron should realize he was the reason they were piling up 60 wins with a **** cast), he had some teams favored to win that lost series.

Maybe his longevity creates an argument later. Maybe he goes on to win 2-3 more titles, and a couple more finals MVP's, and this discussion actually becomes valid, idk. But for me personally, his chance at catching Jordan probably died in June, 2011.

Right now (for me), Bron is in that Kareem/Wilt tier that you have, and Jordan stands alone above them.

But Bron can reach that Jordan tier with one of two things.

1. He reaches the 6 titles with 6 Finals MVP's (unlikely)
2. Reaches 37K career points, over 10K assists (passing Magic), over 10K boards edging him past Kareem and Wilt

or combo

another Finals MVP and 35K points, 9K assists, 9K boards

Chronz
04-19-2017, 09:26 PM
Good for you, I bet you got Blake Griffin there as well, and probably some who played for the San Diego Clippers, now where do you have MJ and Wilt ranked, 998 and 999 respectively? I got MJ&Wilt in the upper part of that 20 circle, where you got CP3 ranked in that top 1000, 997? where you got Shaq Lakers version 996? where you rank Shaq Orlando version outside your top 1000?

throw in Vinny Del Negro in there as well since I am sure you think he is a top 1000 coach all time

you guys really are butt hurt over Lebron being in the circle of best 20 players ever in nba history, damn I think that is remarkable

I havent done my top-1000 in awhile bro, thats why Im playing it safe by informing people that MJ and Wilt are in my top-1000. Where you choose to rank him 1 through 1000 is your prerogative, amirite?

What do you mean butt hurt? Reading is fundamental, Im agreeing with you, those guys are definitely top-1000.

europagnpilgrim
04-20-2017, 01:34 AM
I havent done my top-1000 in awhile bro, thats why Im playing it safe by informing people that MJ and Wilt are in my top-1000. Where you choose to rank him 1 through 1000 is your prerogative, amirite?

What do you mean butt hurt? Reading is fundamental, Im agreeing with you, those guys are definitely top-1000.


Get on it then and post it, stop slacking off, mj and wilt are definitely in your top 1000, cant have it no other way

you are right if you feel you are right, you don't need me to co sign that unless you feel Lakers Shaq is the same version as Orlando one just more weight to carry, am I right?

you said top 1000 so I figured mj and wilt would be on the low end for you and Blake/Vinny would be higher since you carry a certain bias for your San Diego Clippers(am I right?), I got mj and Wilt in my circle of best/dominant o 20 players ever club, you said 1000 so you sound like you were salty or butthurt as I stated, its hard to tell when someone is joking or being serious on psd, true story

europagnpilgrim
04-20-2017, 01:42 AM
The guy hates LeBron. I don't know how he doesn't see that his terminology of ranking is way off but he tries to play it off. There's a consensus among everyone these days that LeBron is easily top ten. Leaving him outside of it and saying he's a top 20 player basically means he ranks LeBron anywhere from 1-20th. Considering KG and maybe even Dirk are top 20 players, there's no question he just hates LeBron.

How can I have a guy in my circle of 20 best players ever in nba history and hate him? you are funny

my terminology is me putting him in a crop of the best/most dominant players realm, you are too occupied ranking him when I never ranked him with a number, if I say he is top 10 or top 5 he is still in my circle of 20 best players ever, Dirk is not, KG is/was better than Dirk

Lebron has won and lost me plenty of money, if I hated him I would never bet on him to win, I would never say he was one of the 20 best players ever after rookie year, get off the ******** sherlock

europagnpilgrim
04-20-2017, 01:53 AM
I actually couldn't agree more.

I get your explanation for your top 20, but since I have never heard it put like that, because it sounds obviously vague, it will continue to sound funny.

He's so obviously in the top 20 that it shouldn't even be said. Guys like KG, Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Malone, Robinson are the guys who you would say are top 20, because its not obvious. You don't reinforce obvious things. You would reinforce Lebron is top 2, or top 3, or top 5.

What if when Usain Bolt won the Gold medal, they only announced him as a top 5 finisher, instead of the Gold medalist? When have you ever heard of a top 3 guy referred to as a top 20 guy first.

I remember Chris Webber referred to Lebron as the Chosen One, then called Mike Black Jesus. He would of been laughed off the stage had he referred to them as "Lock top 20 players all-time" Really?...Really?...Lebron is a lock to be top 20?...Extra extra breaking news. Again, I heard your explanation, but you are trying to be inclusive and group 20 players together when there are clearly definitive levels between 1 and 20...so much so that it sounds silly to PROCLAIM a top 3 guy as a top 20 guy.

I hope you understand this.


You never heard it like that before because you are what you see/conditioned to do and repeat

I don't have to reinforce ****, if I say Lebron/Wilt and whoever is in my circle of 20 best players ever that's what it means, I would have to sit down and put them in ranking number for you to feel better but it doesn't mean I got Lebron #19, he would be up in the upper ladder for sure

i don't follow track much but i am sure Bolt is in the circle of 10-20 fastest/most dominant track men with Carl Lewis and others, doesn't matter where he is ranked to me as long as he is in that group, same with nfl i would put Deion/Barry Sanders and others in that cream of the crop best ever circle

you guys are the one who make it difficult with your diff. criteria for diff. players, nothing is equal when ranking this player vs that because all you guys value diff. things for diff. players, Russell's rings aren't equal to Jordan's because you guys make up excuses about when they played, when in actuality they all played in weak eras, especially when they were winning rings

when i am looking at the truly best players i include HS/NCAA(if attended)/NBA all together

its like you guys make up Tiers ,for what because anybody with half a brain would know Jordan is not in no damn Tier 1 alone, that is ignorant to the max

its like following a old cliché that a superstar could win at least 1 game in a series, well Jordan got swept out early in his career and to me he was superstar(Bird called him GOD in that series), Shaq got swept with Penny and was a Superstar and got swept with the Lakers and was a Superstar, Lebron didn't make the playoffs first couple of seasons and was a Superstar in my book, we just view things from a diff. lens, nothing more nor less

its hard to be labeled in the best group of 20 with so many players who have been dominant in diff. eras so to be in my circle of 20 is phenomenal

europagnpilgrim
04-20-2017, 01:59 AM
Woah, boyfriend? Don't be upset, pal. Your terminology is totally fishy. Like Chronz said, I'm a top 6 billion basketball player in the world. So is Jordan. Don't get me started about your weird infatuation with Wilt.. They said he slept with 1000 females.... Are you one of them?

so you wouldn't be in my circle of best 20 non NBA players that i have seen(though i haven't i still doubt you would be), you are in the top 6 billion in your terms ,good for you and Chronz

you guys are comparing best of 20 to best of 6 billion or top 1000, what a bunch of disgruntled babies, you guys are making it seem like i said i would rather have 20million than 600billion dollars, so far from it

infatuation of Wilt? because i recognize how dominant he was, child please

have i ever mentioned Wilt and his females or do i stick to the script and post his unreal numbers he produced on the hardwood? are you one of Lebron's down low buddies, were you the secret guy on the banana boat with his other butt buddies DWade/CP3/Melo?

LA_Raiders
04-20-2017, 02:24 AM
Yeah, he is a stat chaser that needs 3 all stars to win...

valade16
04-20-2017, 10:50 AM
How can I have a guy in my circle of 20 best players ever in nba history and hate him? you are funny

my terminology is me putting him in a crop of the best/most dominant players realm, you are too occupied ranking him when I never ranked him with a number, if I say he is top 10 or top 5 he is still in my circle of 20 best players ever, Dirk is not, KG is/was better than Dirk

Lebron has won and lost me plenty of money, if I hated him I would never bet on him to win, I would never say he was one of the 20 best players ever after rookie year, get off the ******** sherlock

So you think me saying "Michael Jordan is top 20" does him justice?

ewing
04-20-2017, 12:12 PM
Yeah, he is a stat chaser that needs 3 all stars to win...

nailed it!!!!!!!!!!!

IKnowHoops
04-20-2017, 02:07 PM
I havent done my top-1000 in awhile bro, thats why Im playing it safe by informing people that MJ and Wilt are in my top-1000. Where you choose to rank him 1 through 1000 is your prerogative, amirite?

What do you mean butt hurt? Reading is fundamental, Im agreeing with you, those guys are definitely top-1000.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::l augh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::lau gh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh 2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

europagnpilgrim
04-21-2017, 02:07 PM
So you think me saying "Michael Jordan is top 20" does him justice?

If you have Jordan in the circle of 20 best players ever it means he is in an elite box forever, if you read my initial post I said you could rank the players anywhere

its like when someone says this is my top 10-15 with no order/rank, does it do injustice as well? not to me because being in the circle of 10-20 best players is amazing when you figure that the nba started in 1946, not 1991

Jordan is one of the best 20 players ever, what is wrong with that? is he your number 1 player ever? good for you, which would put him in your best player circle

its the same scenario for MLB/NFL, Barry Bonds is in that circle to me as well as Ken Griiffey Jr., same as Barry Sanders/Deion are in my best 20 players from NFL, Deion Sanders is not in my circle of 20 for his MLB career, but he is in my top 1000/6billion

valade16
04-21-2017, 02:50 PM
If you have Jordan in the circle of 20 best players ever it means he is in an elite box forever, if you read my initial post I said you could rank the players anywhere

its like when someone says this is my top 10-15 with no order/rank, does it do injustice as well? not to me because being in the circle of 10-20 best players is amazing when you figure that the nba started in 1946, not 1991

Jordan is one of the best 20 players ever, what is wrong with that? is he your number 1 player ever? good for you, which would put him in your best player circle

its the same scenario for MLB/NFL, Barry Bonds is in that circle to me as well as Ken Griiffey Jr., same as Barry Sanders/Deion are in my best 20 players from NFL, Deion Sanders is not in my circle of 20 for his MLB career, but he is in my top 1000/6billion

I see how you rank players, it's just very odd that 20 is the cutoff to "from this point on they're all so equal it doesn't matter".

If I said I had Michael Jordan ranked #19th all-time you wouldn't think that is a low ranking for Michael Jordan?

FlashBolt
04-21-2017, 05:38 PM
euro is a top 6 billionth basketball player. Michael Jordan is also a top 6 billionth basketball player.

If you seriously think that's a fair assessment of Michael Jordan, then your terminology is simply a generic statement. You're not providing any context for anything. Saying LeBron is top 20 sounds great but it has to be relative to something. Relative to what we've seen from other greats, it's silly to say he's just a "top 20" player. And I'm not sure why the cut-off for you is top 20. Why can't it be top 30? Clearly you have LeBron in some ranking so unless you really think he can go anywhere from 1-20, which spot do you have him in?

prodigy
04-22-2017, 01:15 PM
Yeah, he is a stat chaser that needs 3 all stars to win...

What year did MJ win it by himself? go ahead ill wait. Kobe? Ill wait. Bad example man try again. As a cavs fan i hated when he left and how he did it. But Cavs were crap, They couldn't get good players around him. So i understood why he had to leave. They were capped out, no draft picks etc...

FlashBolt
04-22-2017, 02:36 PM
*Stat chaser that needs 3 all stars to win..

Last I checked, Kyrie and Love were ON THE BENCH while LeBron carried the Cavs.

Last I checked, Kyrie and Love were both on losing teams that couldn't carry their respective team to the playoffs once.. They would both still be ringless and not making the playoffs if not for LeBron.

Last I checked, Jordan didn't have two all stars on his team.. he had 2 HOF's at their PRIME.

Last I checked, Kobe only played with the greatest and most dominating center in modern NBA history.

Last I checked, Curry is playing with one of the greatest shooters in NBA history along with a stacked roster and also a top 3 NBA player and an annual candidate for DPOY.

Last I checked, Tim Duncan played with an amazing roster with arguably the greatest coach in NBA history. This same coach has been able to replicate the same success every year despite roster changes.

Last I checked, Magic Johnson played with Kareem, Worthy, and Scott against a weak as hell conference.

But yeah, LeBron is the only guy to have good players on his team. Coming from an LA fan, I bet he believes Pau Gasol had nothing to do with Kobe winning his final two rings.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-22-2017, 02:41 PM
I have no problem where people rank him, top 10 is being in the top 20 best players ever to lace'em up, its a honor to be put in the box with the best 20 players ever in any sport, its why I said you can rank him where you feel

Wilt is in Tier 1 easily, as with Jabbar, Jordan is not alone in any tier over those two, if anything Wilt is in his own tier, dude owns the record books, Jabbar had the most impressive/dominant HS-NCAA-NBA career(combined) with Wilt right there

Jordan/Jabbar/Wilt are in the top 20 box for best players ever, where you rank them is your prerogative from 1 through 20, if they fall in your top 5 then that means its 15-17 more slots to fill in with the other players you feel should be there

Sure but it's obviously not the most accurate and pretty dumb to simplify it to "top 20".

If I said Jordan was a top 500 player when he's the near unanimous #1, what do you think people will think.

FlashBolt
04-22-2017, 02:47 PM
Sure but it's obviously not the most accurate and pretty dumb to simplify it to "top 20".

If I said Jordan was a top 500 player when he's the near unanimous #1, what do you think people will think.

And that's the part I don't think he understands. Context matters so while he may technically be right, it's a total miscommunication on his part. Apple is the largest company by financial standards. Is it fair to say "Apple is a top 100 largest company?" I mean, that's just stupid. He knows the difference, too. He just does everything in his fingers to avoid typing anything that attributes to LeBron being great. He also has a huge infatuation with Wilt that he tries to deny that Jordan isn't the GOAT, either. It's weird. Maybe scoring 50 PPG and grabbing 25 RPG against a totally inferior league while only winning once in his prime is GOAT status.

CityofTreez
04-22-2017, 02:58 PM
He'll keep rising in the ranks.

James is great only because I am fortunate to watch his imprint on the league. Other than Kobe, LeBron will probably be the greatest basketball athlete I am witness too. I wasn't the fan I am today when I watched Michael Jordan so LeBron is that. Other than that, hope Cleveland goes to Finals just to lose.

Jamiecballer
04-22-2017, 03:03 PM
Not sure why you guys are so disturbed here over how someone chooses to phrase their compliment

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

IKnowHoops
04-22-2017, 07:52 PM
Not sure why you guys are so disturbed here over how someone chooses to phrase their compliment

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

It was not a compliment

More-Than-Most
04-22-2017, 08:33 PM
Not sure why you guys are so disturbed here over how someone chooses to phrase their compliment

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

saying a top 5 player is in the top 20 might be accurate but any way you slice it its disrespectful and a slap in the face...

Now Imagine someone saying Jordan is a top 20 player ever? you would be destroyed period... its accurate but disrespectful

Bartlee23
04-22-2017, 08:53 PM
*Stat chaser that needs 3 all stars to win..

Last I checked, Kyrie and Love were ON THE BENCH while LeBron carried the Cavs.

Last I checked, Kyrie and Love were both on losing teams that couldn't carry their respective team to the playoffs once.. They would both still be ringless and not making the playoffs if not for LeBron.

Last I checked, Jordan didn't have two all stars on his team.. he had 2 HOF's at their PRIME.

Last I checked, Kobe only played with the greatest and most dominating center in modern NBA history.

Last I checked, Curry is playing with one of the greatest shooters in NBA history along with a stacked roster and also a top 3 NBA player and an annual candidate for DPOY.

Last I checked, Tim Duncan played with an amazing roster with arguably the greatest coach in NBA history. This same coach has been able to replicate the same success every year despite roster changes.

Last I checked, Magic Johnson played with Kareem, Worthy, and Scott against a weak as hell conference.

But yeah, LeBron is the only guy to have good players on his team. Coming from an LA fan, I bet he believes Pau Gasol had nothing to do with Kobe winning his final two rings.


Last I checked, Lebron didn't win **** without Kyrie and Love on Cleveland.

Last I checked, Lebron was on a losing team as well but " took his talents to Miami " and failed to win what he should have.

Last I checked, Jordan had ONE HOF on the team in his prime, Rodman was 35... not in his prime. ( BTW Jordan was 33.)

Last I checked, Kobe did just fine without Shaq.

Last I checked, Curry is an MVP who is one of the greatest shooters in NBA history and has played a major part in the team's success.

Last I checked, Tim Duncan played for an amazing ORGANIZATION who has been able to draft well and is a shining example of how teams should be run.

Last I checked, Kareem was already 33 when Magic started playing him and as far as " weak conferences" go, Lebron has played in some of the weakest ever when he won.

Facts are NOBODY wins without talent. Not one player in history has won by themselves, that's why they're called teams. Lebron is definitely an all-time great, but his track record is not without flaws.

FlashBolt
04-22-2017, 09:28 PM
Last I checked, Lebron didn't win **** without Kyrie and Love on Cleveland.

Last I checked, Lebron was on a losing team as well but " took his talents to Miami " and failed to win what he should have.

Last I checked, Jordan had ONE HOF on the team in his prime, Rodman was 35... not in his prime. ( BTW Jordan was 33.)

Last I checked, Kobe did just fine without Shaq.

Last I checked, Curry is an MVP who is one of the greatest shooters in NBA history and has played a major part in the team's success.

Last I checked, Tim Duncan played for an amazing ORGANIZATION who has been able to draft well and is a shining example of how teams should be run.

Last I checked, Kareem was already 33 when Magic started playing him and as far as " weak conferences" go, Lebron has played in some of the weakest ever when he won.

Facts are NOBODY wins without talent. Not one player in history has won by themselves, that's why they're called teams. Lebron is definitely an all-time great, but his track record is not without flaws.

1) No one said he did but you're overestimating their impact; particularly Kevin Love's. LeBron took a scrub cast to game 6 against the Warriors. He needed a bit more help. Love averaged 6 points and 6 rebounds against the Warriors so I'm not sure which "help" you're referring to.

2) Losing team according to whom? He made the playoffs and carried a terrible franchise. When did Kyrie+Love do that? He might not have won a championship but I wouldn't categorize that as losing. He overachieved with those rosters.

3) Rodman was still the leading rebounder and averaging close to his PER36 in rebounds. Also still an elite defender.

4) Yeah, but he had Shaq. So what's your point? Last I checked, LeBron has never played with a player of Shaq's caliber. Shaq was miles better than Kobe.

5) Yeah, stop with the Curry nonsense. He's on historically stacked teams and has underachieved in the Finals.

6) Yes, you're proving my example.

7) Kareem at 33 was still an MVP candidate, on NBA First teams, and just won MVP the previous season. Quit trying to make it seem as if Kareem just dropped off at age 33 when he was clearly still a top player. Those were some really stacked teams. Despite a weak EC, it was not the disparity of Magic's Lakers vs the bummy and weak WC teams.

FACT, you're proving my point. I never said LeBron could win alone. So there's no need for you to reach for strawman counterpoints to try and prove what I am pointing out.

Jamiecballer
04-22-2017, 09:40 PM
It was not a compliment


saying a top 5 player is in the top 20 might be accurate but any way you slice it its disrespectful and a slap in the face...

Now Imagine someone saying Jordan is a top 20 player ever? you would be destroyed period... its accurate but disrespectful

and you guys are this butthurt over how he feels that you can't let it go?

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 12:57 AM
Sure but it's obviously not the most accurate and pretty dumb to simplify it to "top 20".

If I said Jordan was a top 500 player when he's the near unanimous #1, what do you think people will think.

I don't get how ignorant you can compare a best of 20 player ever no order to a top 500 players ever no order

do you understand that a best of 20 boat is much different than a best of 500? give me your best ever all time rappers or NFL players ever of 20 no order, not your best 500 all time and maybe that will help you sleep better at night

a best of 20 circle doesn't go past 20, it doesn't meant top 500 or 1000 or 6billion, get a grip

you guys/girls on here have a one track mind for the most part

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 01:04 AM
saying a top 5 player is in the top 20 might be accurate but any way you slice it its disrespectful and a slap in the face...

Now Imagine someone saying Jordan is a top 20 player ever? you would be destroyed period... its accurate but disrespectful

so if I am accurate why does everyone got their thong in a bunch? saying my best players list is 20 max or 25 max is not a slap in the face of that group, you make it seem like its never been said before, its been plenty of times where people say this is my top such and such no order and throw out the names they feel that are in that category

Jordan is one of the best 20 players ever in my circle of those players, now you do understand that could mean Jordan is or could be number 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20? but you got butthurt fanatics on here or people who outsmart themselves to say Jordan/Wilt are in my top 1000 or others who say I am a top 6billion player in the world, just ignorance at its finest

if Jordan is in the top 3 of that he is still in that 20 range regardless because I operate like that, like it or love it

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 01:06 AM
It was not a compliment

it is far from a diss, Lebron is in my best of 20 ever, get over it

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 01:08 AM
I see how you rank players, it's just very odd that 20 is the cutoff to "from this point on they're all so equal it doesn't matter".

If I said I had Michael Jordan ranked #19th all-time you wouldn't think that is a low ranking for Michael Jordan?

then that would be your ranking in your order which is your way of doing it, Jordan could be #1 and he would still be in my best ever most dominant players of 20 circle

would that number 1 ranking be too high for Jordan?

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 01:27 AM
*Stat chaser that needs 3 all stars to win..

Last I checked, Kyrie and Love were ON THE BENCH while LeBron carried the Cavs.

Last I checked, Kyrie and Love were both on losing teams that couldn't carry their respective team to the playoffs once.. They would both still be ringless and not making the playoffs if not for LeBron.

Last I checked, Jordan didn't have two all stars on his team.. he had 2 HOF's at their PRIME.

Last I checked, Kobe only played with the greatest and most dominating center in modern NBA history.

Last I checked, Curry is playing with one of the greatest shooters in NBA history along with a stacked roster and also a top 3 NBA player and an annual candidate for DPOY.

Last I checked, Tim Duncan played with an amazing roster with arguably the greatest coach in NBA history. This same coach has been able to replicate the same success every year despite roster changes.

Last I checked, Magic Johnson played with Kareem, Worthy, and Scott against a weak as hell conference.

But yeah, LeBron is the only guy to have good players on his team. Coming from an LA fan, I bet he believes Pau Gasol had nothing to do with Kobe winning his final two rings.

Lebron went back to Cleveland because Irving(new age AI) was in the fold and Lebron was basically the one who orchestrated the Wiggins for Love trade, and the Waiters trade and so on and on, Irving was just as crucial as he was in winning that title just as he was just as crucial as them losing to Warriors when he got injured, they had a shot before he got hurt in 15' finals

so Lebron wanted to team up with losers or did he go join back home the best player on that losing team and poached the best player off of the other losing team in Minny?

I root for Lebron but you guys make it seem like this guy won titles with Cavs in his first 7 seasons then went to Miami and won titles and now came back home and won titles when it was he left because he couldn't beat Boston big 3(or Orlando/Howard) then after he got over the hump in Miami he used the weak excuse coming home to get a title with the super support(scoring) from Irving to do it, a true champion would have came back for one more year to avenge that massacre that the Spurs gave them in 14' Finals, biggest beatdown in Finals history pretty much, but he can do as he pleases since its his career/legacy that he has to look out for

Lebron traded a older version of Wade/Bosh for Irving/Love, Lebron is a intelligent business man/player no doubt about it

I don't blame Lebron for leaving Cavs first time around but he shouldn't have used the excuse he did saying 'I dont want to have bad knees at 30(age)' only to go back to his old team after Wade and his knees started getting worse

next stop for Lebron with the best space and pace structure, Mike D/Rockets, Lebron will be ready for takeoff if the Cavs implode this postseason

Jeffy25
04-23-2017, 07:07 AM
Lebron went back to Cleveland because Irving(new age AI) was in the fold and Lebron was basically the one who orchestrated the Wiggins for Love trade, and the Waiters trade and so on and on, Irving was just as crucial as he was in winning that title just as he was just as crucial as them losing to Warriors when he got injured, they had a shot before he got hurt in 15' finals

so Lebron wanted to team up with losers or did he go join back home the best player on that losing team and poached the best player off of the other losing team in Minny?

I root for Lebron but you guys make it seem like this guy won titles with Cavs in his first 7 seasons then went to Miami and won titles and now came back home and won titles when it was he left because he couldn't beat Boston big 3(or Orlando/Howard) then after he got over the hump in Miami he used the weak excuse coming home to get a title with the super support(scoring) from Irving to do it, a true champion would have came back for one more year to avenge that massacre that the Spurs gave them in 14' Finals, biggest beatdown in Finals history pretty much, but he can do as he pleases since its his career/legacy that he has to look out for

Lebron traded a older version of Wade/Bosh for Irving/Love, Lebron is a intelligent business man/player no doubt about it

I don't blame Lebron for leaving Cavs first time around but he shouldn't have used the excuse he did saying 'I dont want to have bad knees at 30(age)' only to go back to his old team after Wade and his knees started getting worse

next stop for Lebron with the best space and pace structure, Mike D/Rockets, Lebron will be ready for takeoff if the Cavs implode this postseason

The hate is real in here

More-Than-Most
04-23-2017, 07:34 AM
Lebron went back to Cleveland because Irving(new age AI) was in the fold and Lebron was basically the one who orchestrated the Wiggins for Love trade, and the Waiters trade and so on and on, Irving was just as crucial as he was in winning that title just as he was just as crucial as them losing to Warriors when he got injured, they had a shot before he got hurt in 15' finals

so Lebron wanted to team up with losers or did he go join back home the best player on that losing team and poached the best player off of the other losing team in Minny?

I root for Lebron but you guys make it seem like this guy won titles with Cavs in his first 7 seasons then went to Miami and won titles and now came back home and won titles when it was he left because he couldn't beat Boston big 3(or Orlando/Howard) then after he got over the hump in Miami he used the weak excuse coming home to get a title with the super support(scoring) from Irving to do it, a true champion would have came back for one more year to avenge that massacre that the Spurs gave them in 14' Finals, biggest beatdown in Finals history pretty much, but he can do as he pleases since its his career/legacy that he has to look out for

Lebron traded a older version of Wade/Bosh for Irving/Love, Lebron is a intelligent business man/player no doubt about it

I don't blame Lebron for leaving Cavs first time around but he shouldn't have used the excuse he did saying 'I dont want to have bad knees at 30(age)' only to go back to his old team after Wade and his knees started getting worse

next stop for Lebron with the best space and pace structure, Mike D/Rockets, Lebron will be ready for takeoff if the Cavs implode this postseason

this post backs up our critism of you calling him a top 20 player... your hate is clear as day... hell you probably think he is actually the 20th best player ever even though everyone has him in their top 7 with most having him top 5 RIGHT NOW.... Like Jeffy said the hate is clear and you are giving us ammo on why we are having issues with the top 20 bs

you only rank him top 20 because you literally have to... if he lost to the warriors last year i suspect this top 20 stuff wouldnt even be the case and he wouldnt be in your top 50

prodigy
04-23-2017, 07:55 AM
The hate is real in here

It truly is. I'm one of the first people to stress this is an opinion based forum everyone is entitled to their opinion. But man, there are some things that just are not arguable. many look like fools in here. Thats ok though.

If Lebron left Cleveland again and joined a really good team, then yes ring chaser would be a name you could call him. Right now though, it just doesn't fit. He left a Cavs team that was stuck. no picks, no cap, lack of talent. Went to the heat where he took over. Its not like lebron went there and was a 3rd opinion and rode Bosh and Wade for a ring. he was the main man every year. But had help just like Kobe and Jordan had plenty of help.

Bartlee23
04-23-2017, 08:11 AM
1) No one said he did but you're overestimating their impact; particularly Kevin Love's. LeBron took a scrub cast to game 6 against the Warriors. He needed a bit more help. Love averaged 6 points and 6 rebounds against the Warriors so I'm not sure which "help" you're referring to.

2) Losing team according to whom? He made the playoffs and carried a terrible franchise. When did Kyrie+Love do that? He might not have won a championship but I wouldn't categorize that as losing. He overachieved with those rosters.

3) Rodman was still the leading rebounder and averaging close to his PER36 in rebounds. Also still an elite defender.

4) Yeah, but he had Shaq. So what's your point? Last I checked, LeBron has never played with a player of Shaq's caliber. Shaq was miles better than Kobe.

5) Yeah, stop with the Curry nonsense. He's on historically stacked teams and has underachieved in the Finals.

6) Yes, you're proving my example.

7) Kareem at 33 was still an MVP candidate, on NBA First teams, and just won MVP the previous season. Quit trying to make it seem as if Kareem just dropped off at age 33 when he was clearly still a top player. Those were some really stacked teams. Despite a weak EC, it was not the disparity of Magic's Lakers vs the bummy and weak WC teams.

FACT, you're proving my point. I never said LeBron could win alone. So there's no need for you to reach for strawman counterpoints to try and prove what I am pointing out.

1. You stated he " carried " them while they were on the bench. Carried to what? Nothing was won without all of them contributing.

2. " Losing team " meaning he never won anything without multiple stars as did a lot of players. He has done nothing others already haven't. No player has ever won on their own. " Overachieving " is irrelevant as it lead to nothing.

3. You stated " TWO HOF in their primes " Rodman was not in his prime. He won his DPOY awards with Detroit and while still a good player, was not in his prime like in Detroit.

4. Ok.... he " had Shaq ".... what's your point? As I stated Kobe did just fine without him and was a success without him as the main guy.

5. Ok I get it...... you don't like Curry. He's been the main guy on these stacked teams and as far as " underachieving in the finals"... I'd imagine he'll get a chance to redeem himself in his career. Let's not forget Lebron has had some historic bad performances in the finals as well. Funny how quickly we forget.

6. I proved NOTHING you stated. You said " amazing roster and arguably greatest coach. " I stated " great organization." It was because of their amazing organization they are a success. Duncan did not draft the players, sign free agents or pick the coach.

7. Kareem again like Rodman was still a very good player but not close to the player he was in the 70's. I say with great confidence you never saw him play. You're only experience of him lies with a google search and a You tube video.

FALSE, I proved NOTHING you stated. Like I said, when everything is said and done, Lebron will be one of the greatest players of all time... that is a fact. But at least if you're going to post something, get it right. No need to undermine players like Kobe and Curry who will also rate as all-time greats.

prodigy
04-23-2017, 08:37 AM
You both argued the same thing lol. Nobody can win by themselves.

valade16
04-23-2017, 09:09 AM
then that would be your ranking in your order which is your way of doing it, Jordan could be #1 and he would still be in my best ever most dominant players of 20 circle

would that number 1 ranking be too high for Jordan?

Would you have any opinion on my ranking Jordan 19th best?

Bartlee23
04-23-2017, 11:22 AM
You both argued the same thing lol. Nobody can win by themselves.

No.... I argued points that simply were not true. He attempted (and very poorly) tried to show examples of other all-time greats reasons why they won/were so successful. I did not talk down about any player as every player mentioned is an all-time great despite who they played with. Lebron is no different.

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 11:57 AM
this post backs up our critism of you calling him a top 20 player... your hate is clear as day... hell you probably think he is actually the 20th best player ever even though everyone has him in their top 7 with most having him top 5 RIGHT NOW.... Like Jeffy said the hate is clear and you are giving us ammo on why we are having issues with the top 20 bs

you only rank him top 20 because you literally have to... if he lost to the warriors last year i suspect this top 20 stuff wouldnt even be the case and he wouldnt be in your top 50

How does this post back you up? hate for a player? I like Lebron as much as the rest in my best ever circle, its funny you say that because I looked somewhere and they had Lebron 13th all time out of 50 best(they say greatest)

if you actually followed what I have posted on here then you would know I had him in my best ever 20 circle after rookie year, it doesn't take me 10-15yrs to decide on that like it does for you fake experts, Wilt averaged damn near 40 and 30 as a rookie so had I been born back in that time I would have said the same for him, and Wilt is in my circle of 20 as well

losing or winning a Finals doesn't boost or knock down players in my book, that's the dumbest **** a person could ever do, which you all do on here for some idiotic reason

you are making my points for me by bringing up ignorant stuff like winning a title and not, titles didn't boost up Lebron, his game was self explanatory rookie year day 1 and now is still that 14 yrs later, fact

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 12:03 PM
Would you have any opinion on my ranking Jordan 19th best?

Just because the majority of people put Jordan number 1 doesn't mean you cant have him where you do, you don't have to be a follower, I would probably have the same opinion if you ranked him number 1 or 19 because at the end of the day its a damn number, no big deal to me

its like how people say Sugar Ray Robinson is pound for pound the greatest ever and most so called experts have in the top 1-3, now flip it over and Lebron said Iverson is the greatest pound for pound nba player ever and why isn't Iverson in your top 3 or top 10 ever? he is in my 20 circle

Dr J doesn't have Jordan in his top(or favorite) 5, because its his top 5 not yours or mine or the rest, glad to see a player speak for themselves and not what they are conditioned to speak/repeat because its popular/politically correct to say

you might not rank Sugar Ray or Iverson that high so does your opinion matter? you and others are making this out to be something that is pretty basic if you knew what a ''best 20 players ever no order'' term actually means

its as simple as saying this is my best 10 players ever group no order and naming the 10 best, now add 10 and its still the same damn thing

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 12:12 PM
The hate is real in here

The hate for who? if something actually happened and you tell it like it happened that makes it hate or factual?

the last part about Lebron going to the Rockets was just me guessing,nothing factual about that, but the other stuff I wrote about happened or did you just starting watching basketball this season?

wiley6
04-23-2017, 12:42 PM
GOAT conversations in any sport are silly when one considers players playing in different eras, with different supporting casts and against varying levels of competition. In basketball I find it particularly silly given that it is hard to compare players playing different positions that have different roles on a team.

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 01:20 PM
GOAT conversations in any sport are silly when one considers players playing in different eras, with different supporting casts and against varying levels of competition. In basketball I find it particularly silly given that it is hard to compare players playing different positions that have different roles on a team.

No doubt about it, that's why you just keep it at who was the best players of that era and bunch them together in a circle and leave it at that

its too much poppycock about efficiency/titles/PER and other new age non sense to try and devalue certain players while boosting up others and some look at how stacked a team was but discredit others for doing more with less

the best players stood out in any era because they showcased what they were made of on the court/field on a individual level, that's how I judge on who really is the best, some of the best and my favorites never won a title but it doesn't mean they are any less than those who have won titles

Steve Kerr has probably the most rings as a 6th man/bench player(outside of 60's Celtics 6th man) but in no way is he one of the best players ever to come off the bench though he is one of the best catch and shoot snipers of all time(with space)

Jeter to me is not better than Bonds or Griffey but he has more rings than those two players combined because he played for a storied championship caliber franchise for twenty years and Bonds/Griffey were on that contender level maybe a few times out of 30-40yrs combined and had more pressure to deliver while Jeter could just fit right in with the stacked squad the Yanks carried year in and out, and I don't hold that against Jeter for playing with championship caliber squads I am just looking at it from a player vs player level which you could see those two were clearly better, I keep it simple like that in all sports

valade16
04-23-2017, 02:01 PM
Just because the majority of people put Jordan number 1 doesn't mean you cant have him where you do, you don't have to be a follower, I would probably have the same opinion if you ranked him number 1 or 19 because at the end of the day its a damn number, no big deal to me

its like how people say Sugar Ray Robinson is pound for pound the greatest ever and most so called experts have in the top 1-3, now flip it over and Lebron said Iverson is the greatest pound for pound nba player ever and why isn't Iverson in your top 3 or top 10 ever? he is in my 20 circle

Dr J doesn't have Jordan in his top(or favorite) 5, because its his top 5 not yours or mine or the rest, glad to see a player speak for themselves and not what they are conditioned to speak/repeat because its popular/politically correct to say

you might not rank Sugar Ray or Iverson that high so does your opinion matter? you and others are making this out to be something that is pretty basic if you knew what a ''best 20 players ever no order'' term actually means

its as simple as saying this is my best 10 players ever group no order and naming the 10 best, now add 10 and its still the same damn thing

I get your don't go with the flow mentality, but it's important to remember that sometimes so many people are in agreement because it's true.

krazylegz
04-23-2017, 02:33 PM
lavar ball is better

europagnpilgrim
04-23-2017, 03:38 PM
I get your don't go with the flow mentality, but it's important to remember that sometimes so many people are in agreement because it's true.

Not if its propaganda agenda involved

if you believe Christopher Columbus discovered America because they teach it in every public school in America and all you sheeple come together and agree then its very sad that you didn't know the Americas existed at least 100k years ago and not since 1432 or whatever dumb year they said Cristobal Colon(Columbus real actual name, even if you don't agree) discovered something that already was heavily in existence

but hey go with the flow since you are all in agreement

Lebron is the most accomplished of his era and many experts/players say his bball IQ/knowledge of the game is off the charts so why would he say Iverson is the greatest player ever pound for pound but many(mainstream) don't agree or have Iverson in their own personal top 10-20? hell on here he would barely crack a experts top 40 from what I have read but if you got to the park and barbershops some have labeled Iverson the best PG ever or top 10 to ever do it, but hey I guess we all go with our own flow where I come from

you don't get my go with the flow mentality but you are going with the flow of others who say Jordan is the best ever or at worst top 3, go figure

its equally as important to remember that because so many sheeple are in agreement because of stuff being repeated over and over and over, repetition is one of the easiest stages of brainwashing, go see the genius George Bush for proof of that who kept repeating over and over its a war on terror and then all you seen all over media mainstream outlets was a war on terror so I am pretty sure you and many others came to an agreement that it was a war on terror, child please

FlashBolt
04-24-2017, 12:19 AM
Greatest pound for pound means in terms of talent per size... which is what I'm guessing he's basing it off of. I'd argue CP3 is the greatest by that definition but AI is certainly up there. If there is one thing you can take away from AI, it would be his heart. And I'm sure LeBron has an admiration for AI just because most of the players during his own time had grown up dressing and watching AI.

And your definition of repetition is ridiculous. If I keep repeating 2+2=4, how is that brainwashing? You're just a nutjob, dude. We have facts while all you do is google Wilt's naked pictures on Google. There's a total consensus that MJ is the GOAT and other various cases you keep refuting. You're too ignorant or arrogant to see that your arguments are weak.

europagnpilgrim
04-24-2017, 01:45 AM
Greatest pound for pound means in terms of talent per size... which is what I'm guessing he's basing it off of. I'd argue CP3 is the greatest by that definition but AI is certainly up there. If there is one thing you can take away from AI, it would be his heart. And I'm sure LeBron has an admiration for AI just because most of the players during his own time had grown up dressing and watching AI.

And your definition of repetition is ridiculous. If I keep repeating 2+2=4, how is that brainwashing? You're just a nutjob, dude. We have facts while all you do is google Wilt's naked pictures on Google. There's a total consensus that MJ is the GOAT and other various cases you keep refuting. You're too ignorant or arrogant to see that your arguments are weak.

Pound for pound means dominance/best and because if AI actually was 6'8'' like Lebron said he played like was he would no doubt be in a lot of folks top 5-10, just like Ali/Louis and other legendary boxers said Sugar Ray Robinson is the best pound for pound boxer ever, your peers quotes about you mean way more than what so called fake experts have to say, way more

so you do believe everything what the media feeds you then? why do you know what 2+2 is? was it from being told while you were in 1st grade (school system) that is what it adds up to over and over in math class? the media are masters at brainwashing, you are the type to believe that a television is for education purpose when a actually a man who worked for the CIA said the tv is to program/brainwash people, dumb you down

brainwashing can be detrimental but can be lessons if for the good, like if our parents/elders taught(brainwashed) us to be respectful productive human beings, media don't operate like that, they mask the half truth with lies to cause confusion with dis information, why do you think we are on here having debates if it was so cut and dry?


you are part of the sheeple so of course you would think I am a nutjob when you follow and co sign the actual nutjobbers who feed you what to think, you don't know how to think for yourself

keep googling pitctures of Lebron and his butt buddies on the banana boat, you are fruity as that Alize

there is a media driven consensus that MJ is the GOAT, its plenty of people who don't get to go on ESPN and other outlets to express how they feel, Clyde Drexler(nor DR.J and others) didn't say Jordan was the GOAT, he said Wilt so I guess he Googled Wilts naked pictures as well, its plenty of people who feel Jabbar is the GOAT, its plenty of people who feel Russell/Magic are the GOAT, its only a media brainwash consensus and you took the baton and ran with it

in the NFL some think J Brown is the GOAT, J Rice is the GOAT, J Montana is the GOAT, Brady or L Taylor and so on and on, go to Green Bay and they will say Favre is, go to LA and they will say Dickerson, go to Texas and they will say probably say Moon/Campbell/Watt

Its plenty of people who feel 2PAC is the GOAT rapper, Rakim the GOAT, Jay Z/Nas/Biggie is the GOAT, KRS1 the GOAT, Em or Scarface/Redman/Andre3000/Jadakiss and on and on, just recently some nutjob just said Kendrick Lamar is the GOAT, its all what you feel and like, nothing is set in stone especially coming from media outlets, they promote the NBA like it started in 1991(Jordan first title)

I have no problem where you rank Jordan but you obviously have a problem with the fact that Wilt was the most dominant solo player in history of the game, record books don't lie

I don't argue, I present what actually happened and Wilt put up numerous games his first 6-7 yrs of 50+/30+/20+/10+10+, those are numbers no player has ever come close to putting up across the board in multiple seasons, he did it while on cruise control

of course Lebron has admiration/respect for AI because you don't call someone the best player ever pound for pound if you don't feel that player was one of the best ever, AI had the heart/skill/competiveness/killer instinct/athletic physical ability/toughness all in one, all the attributes to be one of the best ever and showcased it on the hardwood, AI was Lebron favorite player after Jordan, you know the one you(and other sheeple) call the GOAT

CP3 even said AI influence him the most of any player ever so he is AI son, the student is not greater than the teacher

Its a reason why your boy toy Lebron said he is chasing the ghost of Jordan, now go outside or to your local haunted house and chase a ghost, you wont never see nor catch it, fact

prodigy
04-24-2017, 12:26 PM
LeBron is the Goat. everything he does on that court, now in year 14. its beyond insane. Goat to me is basketball player. not who has the most rings or anything else like that. Because having poor teammates can hamper that. But just a guy who can perform every act on a basketball count at a high level and continue it for many years. Jordan simply couldn't do every lebron can. hate it or love it that's a fact.

Bartlee23
04-24-2017, 02:08 PM
LeBron is the Goat. everything he does on that court, now in year 14. its beyond insane. Goat to me is basketball player. not who has the most rings or anything else like that. Because having poor teammates can hamper that. But just a guy who can perform every act on a basketball count at a high level and continue it for many years. Jordan simply couldn't do every lebron can. hate it or love it that's a fact.

Thanks for sharing your opinion... you're definitely entitled to it. If you want to throw out championships, that's fine, Jordan has already achieved something Lebron can never catch. Let's compare things in a different way...prime.

Regular Season:
MJ- 33.4 ppg/6.4 rpg/6.0 apg
LBJ- 27.1 ppg/7.3 rpg/7.1 apg
Postseason:
MJ- 34.6 ppg/6.7 rpg/6.6 apg
LBJ- 28.1 ppg/9.1 rpg/6.6 apg

Prime for prime, Michael Jordan was a better basketball player than LeBron James was-if you think his prime has passed-or is. The information above considers Michael Jordan’s prime 1987-1993, although I believe that 1987 was more of an emergence and 1988 marked his true prime. It also considers LeBron’s prime 2009-2016. A lot of you guys seem to think that somehow the pace of Jordan’s era makes his statline look better, so I will present the numbers in Per 100 possessions format, and add some of the “advanced statistics” that I found.

’87-’93 MJ(Per 100):
Regular Season- 42.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, and 7.7 assists on 51.8% from the field, 59.0% TS, 30.4 PER, .285 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 69.7 VORP.
Postseason- 44.2 points, 8.6 rebounds, and 8.4 assists on 50.2% shooting from the field, 58.1% TS, 29.8 PER, .264 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 15.3 VORP.
’09-’16 LBJ(Per 100):
Regular Season- 38.0 points, 10.3 rebounds, and 10.0 assists on 52.1% from the field, 60.6% TS, 29.4 PER, .274 WS/48, 10.3 BPM, 69.5 VORP.
Postseason- 36.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, and 8.7 assists on 49.2% shooting from the field, 57.9% TS, 28.9 PER, .258 WS/48, 11.3 BPM, 21.2 VORP.
In the regular season, Jordan had a higher: PPG average(by 4.6 points), PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP. LeBron had a higher: RPG average(by 2.1 rebounds), APG average(by 2.3 assists), FG %(by .3%), and TS%(by 1.6%). Seems pretty even, consider the fact that LeBron was in an offense with much more spacing and weapons which ultimately allowed him to shoot better, and Jordan carried more of an offensive load. The regular season is basically a split, but I understand if you favor Jordan slightly or LeBron slightly.

In the postseason, Jordan had a higher: PPG average(by 7.3 points), FG %(by 1.0%), TS%(by .2%), PER, WS/48, and BPM. LeBron had a higher: RPG average(by 3.3 rebounds), APG average(by .3 assists), and VORP. I think it’s tough to deny that MJ has the edge in postseason statistics. The assist difference is just .3, while Jordan has a 7.3 advantage in points per game while being more efficient.

Jordan was the best playoff performer ever, and one could argue that either one of his first three Finals Performances were the best ever… People seem to think that Jordan had a “stacked team” and that his winning came handily, but this is far from the truth. The Bulls were a great team when they were winning rings, but they were no super team during the first three-peat, and were not invincible during the second-three peat. The Bulls won two playoff series without home-court advantage during the first three-peat, including the ’93 Finals. The Suns were an extremely deep team, led by MVP Charles Barkley. Despite injuries throughout the season, they won 62 games. Jordan averaged 41/9/6 on 51%, in my opinion the greatest finals performance ever, in order to help his team win in six. The sixth game was won on a game-winner from John Paxson, so a tightly contested six game series despite a heroic effort from Jordan shows how “stacked” the Bulls were in comparison to their competition. Each Finals opponent that the Bulls faced was lead by the MVP or MVP runner-up, and along with the ’93 Finals the Bulls did not have home-court against Utah in ’98 but still won(Scottie Pippen missed 38 games in the ’98 season, 35-year old Michael Jordan led the Bulls to a 26-12-pace for 56 wins-record).

Over 70% of Jordan’s playoff opponents in his career had 50+ wins, and just above 50% of LeBron’s playoff opponents in his career have had 50+ wins. Both players have won five series without home-court advantage. Jordan NEVER lost a series with home-court advantage, LeBron has lost 3 series with home-court advantage, one was his fault, one was not entirely his fault, and one was entirely on his teammates. These are facts.

IMO Jordan is the GOAT and has earned the title with little/no doubt. I respect anyone's opinion to who they think is the GOAT but to me it's Jordan.

Hawkeye15
04-24-2017, 02:21 PM
Thanks for sharing your opinion... you're definitely entitled to it. If you want to throw out championships, that's fine, Jordan has already achieved something Lebron can never catch. Let's compare things in a different way...prime.

Regular Season:
MJ- 33.4 ppg/6.4 rpg/6.0 apg
LBJ- 27.1 ppg/7.3 rpg/7.1 apg
Postseason:
MJ- 34.6 ppg/6.7 rpg/6.6 apg
LBJ- 28.1 ppg/9.1 rpg/6.6 apg

Prime for prime, Michael Jordan was a better basketball player than LeBron James was-if you think his prime has passed-or is. The information above considers Michael Jordan’s prime 1987-1993, although I believe that 1987 was more of an emergence and 1988 marked his true prime. It also considers LeBron’s prime 2009-2016. A lot of you guys seem to think that somehow the pace of Jordan’s era makes his statline look better, so I will present the numbers in Per 100 possessions format, and add some of the “advanced statistics” that I found.

’87-’93 MJ(Per 100):
Regular Season- 42.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, and 7.7 assists on 51.8% from the field, 59.0% TS, 30.4 PER, .285 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 69.7 VORP.
Postseason- 44.2 points, 8.6 rebounds, and 8.4 assists on 50.2% shooting from the field, 58.1% TS, 29.8 PER, .264 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 15.3 VORP.
’09-’16 LBJ(Per 100):
Regular Season- 38.0 points, 10.3 rebounds, and 10.0 assists on 52.1% from the field, 60.6% TS, 29.4 PER, .274 WS/48, 10.3 BPM, 69.5 VORP.
Postseason- 36.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, and 8.7 assists on 49.2% shooting from the field, 57.9% TS, 28.9 PER, .258 WS/48, 11.3 BPM, 21.2 VORP.
In the regular season, Jordan had a higher: PPG average(by 4.6 points), PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP. LeBron had a higher: RPG average(by 2.1 rebounds), APG average(by 2.3 assists), FG %(by .3%), and TS%(by 1.6%). Seems pretty even, consider the fact that LeBron was in an offense with much more spacing and weapons which ultimately allowed him to shoot better, and Jordan carried more of an offensive load. The regular season is basically a split, but I understand if you favor Jordan slightly or LeBron slightly.

In the postseason, Jordan had a higher: PPG average(by 7.3 points), FG %(by 1.0%), TS%(by .2%), PER, WS/48, and BPM. LeBron had a higher: RPG average(by 3.3 rebounds), APG average(by .3 assists), and VORP. I think it’s tough to deny that MJ has the edge in postseason statistics. The assist difference is just .3, while Jordan has a 7.3 advantage in points per game while being more efficient.

Jordan was the best playoff performer ever, and one could argue that either one of his first three Finals Performances were the best ever… People seem to think that Jordan had a “stacked team” and that his winning came handily, but this is far from the truth. The Bulls were a great team when they were winning rings, but they were no super team during the first three-peat, and were not invincible during the second-three peat. The Bulls won two playoff series without home-court advantage during the first three-peat, including the ’93 Finals. The Suns were an extremely deep team, led by MVP Charles Barkley. Despite injuries throughout the season, they won 62 games. Jordan averaged 41/9/6 on 51%, in my opinion the greatest finals performance ever, in order to help his team win in six. The sixth game was won on a game-winner from John Paxson, so a tightly contested six game series despite a heroic effort from Jordan shows how “stacked” the Bulls were in comparison to their competition. Each Finals opponent that the Bulls faced was lead by the MVP or MVP runner-up, and along with the ’93 Finals the Bulls did not have home-court against Utah in ’98 but still won(Scottie Pippen missed 38 games in the ’98 season, 35-year old Michael Jordan led the Bulls to a 26-12-pace for 56 wins-record).

Over 70% of Jordan’s playoff opponents in his career had 50+ wins, and just above 50% of LeBron’s playoff opponents in his career have had 50+ wins. Both players have won five series without home-court advantage. Jordan NEVER lost a series with home-court advantage, LeBron has lost 3 series with home-court advantage, one was his fault, one was not entirely his fault, and one was entirely on his teammates. These are facts.

IMO Jordan is the GOAT and has earned the title with little/no doubt. I respect anyone's opinion to who they think is the GOAT but to me it's Jordan.

wait, you are cutting off Jordan's numbers for PEAK, not prime.

I am not going to argue MJ/LeBron, because it's my opinion that Jordan is better. But that little beneficial to your argument window is kind of weird...you cut off MJ's prime at age 29, with thousands less minutes than LeBron who you cut off at 32. Meh

Bartlee23
04-24-2017, 02:35 PM
wait, you are cutting off Jordan's numbers for PEAK, not prime.

I am not going to argue MJ/LeBron, because it's my opinion that Jordan is better. But that little beneficial to your argument window is kind of weird...you cut off MJ's prime at age 29, with thousands less minutes than LeBron who you cut off at 32. Meh

I started out by STATING this was my OPINION... why respond with such an idiotic response... meh. Prime IS Peak... sorry you couldn't understand.

Jordan returned from baseball and from ’96-’98 was still the best player alive. However, he was not as good as he was in his prime. His team was better, and he was able to lead them to three more rings while earning all three FMVPs and two season MVPs along the way. Jordan played 18 games(started 7 and only averaged 25 mpg) in ’86 on a broken foot, he returned from baseball after retirement and played in 17 games in ’95(played bad for his standards, but not legitimately bad at all)

Again.... this is my OPINION and my points are valid. Thanks for the response... Meh.

IKnowHoops
04-25-2017, 01:42 AM
I started out by STATING this was my OPINION... why respond with such an idiotic response... meh. Prime IS Peak... sorry you couldn't understand.

Jordan returned from baseball and from ’96-’98 was still the best player alive. However, he was not as good as he was in his prime. His team was better, and he was able to lead them to three more rings while earning all three FMVPs and two season MVPs along the way. Jordan played 18 games(started 7 and only averaged 25 mpg) in ’86 on a broken foot, he returned from baseball after retirement and played in 17 games in ’95(played bad for his standards, but not legitimately bad at all)

Again.... this is my OPINION and my points are valid. Thanks for the response... Meh.

Depict there primes through the same age. You are essentially cherry picking years a bit and it screws the argument. You are not in Lebrons Prime young man. 2009 marked the end of Lebron's physical Prime and its where you are starting his prime. How can you create an argument if you don't have the facts? Ask people who know more about Lebron than you do (most of PSD) when his prime was, then put your calculator to good use and give us something that holds water.

IKnowHoops
04-25-2017, 01:43 AM
wait, you are cutting off Jordan's numbers for PEAK, not prime.

I am not going to argue MJ/LeBron, because it's my opinion that Jordan is better. But that little beneficial to your argument window is kind of weird...you cut off MJ's prime at age 29, with thousands less minutes than LeBron who you cut off at 32. Meh

Exactly

More-Than-Most
04-25-2017, 02:03 AM
I started out by STATING this was my OPINION... why respond with such an idiotic response... meh. Prime IS Peak... sorry you couldn't understand.

Jordan returned from baseball and from ’96-’98 was still the best player alive. However, he was not as good as he was in his prime. His team was better, and he was able to lead them to three more rings while earning all three FMVPs and two season MVPs along the way. Jordan played 18 games(started 7 and only averaged 25 mpg) in ’86 on a broken foot, he returned from baseball after retirement and played in 17 games in ’95(played bad for his standards, but not legitimately bad at all)

Again.... this is my OPINION and my points are valid. Thanks for the response... Meh.

Lol so you think an opinion means nobody can comment on how idiotic it is but then you yourself call someones response idiotic? Sounds about right

I have an opinion too... MJ isnt in the top 100 players ever... See how dumb this is? Its my opinion... I am entitled to it but its still idiotic.

Jeffy25
04-25-2017, 03:15 AM
The hate for who? if something actually happened and you tell it like it happened that makes it hate or factual?

the last part about Lebron going to the Rockets was just me guessing,nothing factual about that, but the other stuff I wrote about happened or did you just starting watching basketball this season?

I don't know anything about you outside of these posts, but you clearly really really hate Bron

FlashBolt
04-25-2017, 09:30 AM
Pound for pound means dominance/best and because if AI actually was 6'8'' like Lebron said he played like was he would no doubt be in a lot of folks top 5-10, just like Ali/Louis and other legendary boxers said Sugar Ray Robinson is the best pound for pound boxer ever, your peers quotes about you mean way more than what so called fake experts have to say, way more

so you do believe everything what the media feeds you then? why do you know what 2+2 is? was it from being told while you were in 1st grade (school system) that is what it adds up to over and over in math class? the media are masters at brainwashing, you are the type to believe that a television is for education purpose when a actually a man who worked for the CIA said the tv is to program/brainwash people, dumb you down

brainwashing can be detrimental but can be lessons if for the good, like if our parents/elders taught(brainwashed) us to be respectful productive human beings, media don't operate like that, they mask the half truth with lies to cause confusion with dis information, why do you think we are on here having debates if it was so cut and dry?


you are part of the sheeple so of course you would think I am a nutjob when you follow and co sign the actual nutjobbers who feed you what to think, you don't know how to think for yourself

keep googling pitctures of Lebron and his butt buddies on the banana boat, you are fruity as that Alize

there is a media driven consensus that MJ is the GOAT, its plenty of people who don't get to go on ESPN and other outlets to express how they feel, Clyde Drexler(nor DR.J and others) didn't say Jordan was the GOAT, he said Wilt so I guess he Googled Wilts naked pictures as well, its plenty of people who feel Jabbar is the GOAT, its plenty of people who feel Russell/Magic are the GOAT, its only a media brainwash consensus and you took the baton and ran with it

in the NFL some think J Brown is the GOAT, J Rice is the GOAT, J Montana is the GOAT, Brady or L Taylor and so on and on, go to Green Bay and they will say Favre is, go to LA and they will say Dickerson, go to Texas and they will say probably say Moon/Campbell/Watt

Its plenty of people who feel 2PAC is the GOAT rapper, Rakim the GOAT, Jay Z/Nas/Biggie is the GOAT, KRS1 the GOAT, Em or Scarface/Redman/Andre3000/Jadakiss and on and on, just recently some nutjob just said Kendrick Lamar is the GOAT, its all what you feel and like, nothing is set in stone especially coming from media outlets, they promote the NBA like it started in 1991(Jordan first title)

I have no problem where you rank Jordan but you obviously have a problem with the fact that Wilt was the most dominant solo player in history of the game, record books don't lie

I don't argue, I present what actually happened and Wilt put up numerous games his first 6-7 yrs of 50+/30+/20+/10+10+, those are numbers no player has ever come close to putting up across the board in multiple seasons, he did it while on cruise control

of course Lebron has admiration/respect for AI because you don't call someone the best player ever pound for pound if you don't feel that player was one of the best ever, AI had the heart/skill/competiveness/killer instinct/athletic physical ability/toughness all in one, all the attributes to be one of the best ever and showcased it on the hardwood, AI was Lebron favorite player after Jordan, you know the one you(and other sheeple) call the GOAT

CP3 even said AI influence him the most of any player ever so he is AI son, the student is not greater than the teacher

Its a reason why your boy toy Lebron said he is chasing the ghost of Jordan, now go outside or to your local haunted house and chase a ghost, you wont never see nor catch it, fact

You're a conspiracy nut. Go back to your hut and cover your windows... Now you're debating that 2+2 isn't 4... Okay, whatever you say crackhead.

FlashBolt
04-25-2017, 09:35 AM
Thanks for sharing your opinion... you're definitely entitled to it. If you want to throw out championships, that's fine, Jordan has already achieved something Lebron can never catch. Let's compare things in a different way...prime.

Regular Season:
MJ- 33.4 ppg/6.4 rpg/6.0 apg
LBJ- 27.1 ppg/7.3 rpg/7.1 apg
Postseason:
MJ- 34.6 ppg/6.7 rpg/6.6 apg
LBJ- 28.1 ppg/9.1 rpg/6.6 apg

Prime for prime, Michael Jordan was a better basketball player than LeBron James was-if you think his prime has passed-or is. The information above considers Michael Jordan’s prime 1987-1993, although I believe that 1987 was more of an emergence and 1988 marked his true prime. It also considers LeBron’s prime 2009-2016. A lot of you guys seem to think that somehow the pace of Jordan’s era makes his statline look better, so I will present the numbers in Per 100 possessions format, and add some of the “advanced statistics” that I found.

’87-’93 MJ(Per 100):
Regular Season- 42.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, and 7.7 assists on 51.8% from the field, 59.0% TS, 30.4 PER, .285 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 69.7 VORP.
Postseason- 44.2 points, 8.6 rebounds, and 8.4 assists on 50.2% shooting from the field, 58.1% TS, 29.8 PER, .264 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 15.3 VORP.
’09-’16 LBJ(Per 100):
Regular Season- 38.0 points, 10.3 rebounds, and 10.0 assists on 52.1% from the field, 60.6% TS, 29.4 PER, .274 WS/48, 10.3 BPM, 69.5 VORP.
Postseason- 36.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, and 8.7 assists on 49.2% shooting from the field, 57.9% TS, 28.9 PER, .258 WS/48, 11.3 BPM, 21.2 VORP.
In the regular season, Jordan had a higher: PPG average(by 4.6 points), PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP. LeBron had a higher: RPG average(by 2.1 rebounds), APG average(by 2.3 assists), FG %(by .3%), and TS%(by 1.6%). Seems pretty even, consider the fact that LeBron was in an offense with much more spacing and weapons which ultimately allowed him to shoot better, and Jordan carried more of an offensive load. The regular season is basically a split, but I understand if you favor Jordan slightly or LeBron slightly.

In the postseason, Jordan had a higher: PPG average(by 7.3 points), FG %(by 1.0%), TS%(by .2%), PER, WS/48, and BPM. LeBron had a higher: RPG average(by 3.3 rebounds), APG average(by .3 assists), and VORP. I think it’s tough to deny that MJ has the edge in postseason statistics. The assist difference is just .3, while Jordan has a 7.3 advantage in points per game while being more efficient.

Jordan was the best playoff performer ever, and one could argue that either one of his first three Finals Performances were the best ever… People seem to think that Jordan had a “stacked team” and that his winning came handily, but this is far from the truth. The Bulls were a great team when they were winning rings, but they were no super team during the first three-peat, and were not invincible during the second-three peat. The Bulls won two playoff series without home-court advantage during the first three-peat, including the ’93 Finals. The Suns were an extremely deep team, led by MVP Charles Barkley. Despite injuries throughout the season, they won 62 games. Jordan averaged 41/9/6 on 51%, in my opinion the greatest finals performance ever, in order to help his team win in six. The sixth game was won on a game-winner from John Paxson, so a tightly contested six game series despite a heroic effort from Jordan shows how “stacked” the Bulls were in comparison to their competition. Each Finals opponent that the Bulls faced was lead by the MVP or MVP runner-up, and along with the ’93 Finals the Bulls did not have home-court against Utah in ’98 but still won(Scottie Pippen missed 38 games in the ’98 season, 35-year old Michael Jordan led the Bulls to a 26-12-pace for 56 wins-record).

Over 70% of Jordan’s playoff opponents in his career had 50+ wins, and just above 50% of LeBron’s playoff opponents in his career have had 50+ wins. Both players have won five series without home-court advantage. Jordan NEVER lost a series with home-court advantage, LeBron has lost 3 series with home-court advantage, one was his fault, one was not entirely his fault, and one was entirely on his teammates. These are facts.

IMO Jordan is the GOAT and has earned the title with little/no doubt. I respect anyone's opinion to who they think is the GOAT but to me it's Jordan.

Scottie Pippen, in their six rings together, was the one who had more rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and better defender than Jordan. So as much as you want to contribute the wins to Jordan, you are lacking in any substance. Jordan at his peak prime was getting beaten down like a pulp. They were no superteam? Why do you act like they played against a superteam when their competition died out? Bird's Celtics were over, Pistons were over, and Magic's Lakers were depleted. They didn't have your traditional Warriors superteam but they still had the best team and it wasn't close. Last I checked, Horace Grant and Pippen were still very good players at their peak. It's your opinion and my opinion as well that Jordan is the GOAT but your arguments are terribly biased. And those stats you mention are nearly identical. If you really think a few points in PER/WS means as much as you think it does, then you should work for the Houston Rockets.

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 09:59 AM
You're a conspiracy nut. Go back to your hut and cover your windows... Now you're debating that 2+2 isn't 4... Okay, whatever you say crackhead.

what the hell? you are a comedian, I asked you why/how do you know what 2+2 is, not that it doesn't add up to 4, you are a meth head, go back to your cave-MAN

you are a sheep-follower-dick rider, stay in your lane, enjoy

that's such a cop out claiming someone is a conspiracy nut(truth teller), but that's what I expect from the sheeple who cant refute what is put in their face

go catch up with your herd

Hawkeye15
04-25-2017, 10:02 AM
Pound for pound means dominance/best and because if AI actually was 6'8'' like Lebron said he played like was he would no doubt be in a lot of folks top 5-10, just like Ali/Louis and other legendary boxers said Sugar Ray Robinson is the best pound for pound boxer ever, your peers quotes about you mean way more than what so called fake experts have to say, way more

so you do believe everything what the media feeds you then? why do you know what 2+2 is? was it from being told while you were in 1st grade (school system) that is what it adds up to over and over in math class? the media are masters at brainwashing, you are the type to believe that a television is for education purpose when a actually a man who worked for the CIA said the tv is to program/brainwash people, dumb you down

brainwashing can be detrimental but can be lessons if for the good, like if our parents/elders taught(brainwashed) us to be respectful productive human beings, media don't operate like that, they mask the half truth with lies to cause confusion with dis information, why do you think we are on here having debates if it was so cut and dry?


you are part of the sheeple so of course you would think I am a nutjob when you follow and co sign the actual nutjobbers who feed you what to think, you don't know how to think for yourself

keep googling pitctures of Lebron and his butt buddies on the banana boat, you are fruity as that Alize

there is a media driven consensus that MJ is the GOAT, its plenty of people who don't get to go on ESPN and other outlets to express how they feel, Clyde Drexler(nor DR.J and others) didn't say Jordan was the GOAT, he said Wilt so I guess he Googled Wilts naked pictures as well, its plenty of people who feel Jabbar is the GOAT, its plenty of people who feel Russell/Magic are the GOAT, its only a media brainwash consensus and you took the baton and ran with it

in the NFL some think J Brown is the GOAT, J Rice is the GOAT, J Montana is the GOAT, Brady or L Taylor and so on and on, go to Green Bay and they will say Favre is, go to LA and they will say Dickerson, go to Texas and they will say probably say Moon/Campbell/Watt

Its plenty of people who feel 2PAC is the GOAT rapper, Rakim the GOAT, Jay Z/Nas/Biggie is the GOAT, KRS1 the GOAT, Em or Scarface/Redman/Andre3000/Jadakiss and on and on, just recently some nutjob just said Kendrick Lamar is the GOAT, its all what you feel and like, nothing is set in stone especially coming from media outlets, they promote the NBA like it started in 1991(Jordan first title)

I have no problem where you rank Jordan but you obviously have a problem with the fact that Wilt was the most dominant solo player in history of the game, record books don't lie

I don't argue, I present what actually happened and Wilt put up numerous games his first 6-7 yrs of 50+/30+/20+/10+10+, those are numbers no player has ever come close to putting up across the board in multiple seasons, he did it while on cruise control

of course Lebron has admiration/respect for AI because you don't call someone the best player ever pound for pound if you don't feel that player was one of the best ever, AI had the heart/skill/competiveness/killer instinct/athletic physical ability/toughness all in one, all the attributes to be one of the best ever and showcased it on the hardwood, AI was Lebron favorite player after Jordan, you know the one you(and other sheeple) call the GOAT

CP3 even said AI influence him the most of any player ever so he is AI son, the student is not greater than the teacher

Its a reason why your boy toy Lebron said he is chasing the ghost of Jordan, now go outside or to your local haunted house and chase a ghost, you wont never see nor catch it, fact

stop ya right there. Thing is, guy are quicker when smaller. AI is losing all kinds of athletic ability as he gets bigger. The reason LeBron is such a freak, is the world has never seen a man his size who can do what he does on a basketball court athletically. Same with Wilt, or Shaq.

Hawkeye15
04-25-2017, 10:04 AM
I started out by STATING this was my OPINION... why respond with such an idiotic response... meh. Prime IS Peak... sorry you couldn't understand.

Jordan returned from baseball and from ’96-’98 was still the best player alive. However, he was not as good as he was in his prime. His team was better, and he was able to lead them to three more rings while earning all three FMVPs and two season MVPs along the way. Jordan played 18 games(started 7 and only averaged 25 mpg) in ’86 on a broken foot, he returned from baseball after retirement and played in 17 games in ’95(played bad for his standards, but not legitimately bad at all)

Again.... this is my OPINION and my points are valid. Thanks for the response... Meh.

No, I understand you are setting up your parameters to fit your agenda.

You cut off Jordan's prime at age 29. He didn't even start until age 21. You are jacking up your windows to fit your agenda.

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 10:06 AM
I don't know anything about you outside of these posts, but you clearly really really hate Bron

Well if you base me off these posts alone then you are in the wilderness lost, Lebron is one of my favorites ever to step onto the hardwood, fact

but I wont sit up here and act like he walks on water, everything I say about Lebron happened, he carried the Cavs first 7 years and lef, then when he had the talent with Heat he went to 4 straight Finals then comes back to Cavs with more talent and has gone to 2 straight and going for 3 in a row, which I always felt he would do and I was glad he left Cavs first time around, I wish some of my other favorites before him would have done that

to say I really really hate Lebron because I am telling it like it is and was is really just ignorant on your part, stop the poppycock, Lebron was one of the best players ever his rookie season, I called it preNBA to be honest

so since i called that does it make me really really love Lebron? no, I just call a spade a spade and keep it moving

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 10:19 AM
stop ya right there. Thing is, guy are quicker when smaller. AI is losing all kinds of athletic ability as he gets bigger. The reason LeBron is such a freak, is the world has never seen a man his size who can do what he does on a basketball court athletically. Same with Wilt, or Shaq.

no I wont stop, AI was a freak athlete so he would have been a freak at 6'8'', he wouldn't be bigger(bulk/thick wise) just taller, he would be thin like KD, nobody could do what AI did at 5'9'', its why Lebron said he played like a 6'8'' ShootingGuard, who does that at that 5'9''? nobody before nor after

he wouldn't have his super quickness but he would still be dumb quick and his speed would still be there and his jumping/skill would have made him even more feared at that height since he was feared being under 6ft

prodigy
04-25-2017, 12:15 PM
wait, you are cutting off Jordan's numbers for PEAK, not prime.

I am not going to argue MJ/LeBron, because it's my opinion that Jordan is better. But that little beneficial to your argument window is kind of weird...you cut off MJ's prime at age 29, with thousands less minutes than LeBron who you cut off at 32. Meh

rightttt....... lmao!!! Lebron is still going strong. i mean some can argue other then FT's hes improved every part of his game.

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 01:45 PM
Depict there primes through the same age. You are essentially cherry picking years a bit and it screws the argument. You are not in Lebrons Prime young man. 2009 marked the end of Lebron's physical Prime and its where you are starting his prime. How can you create an argument if you don't have the facts? Ask people who know more about Lebron than you do (most of PSD) when his prime was, then put your calculator to good use and give us something that holds water.

All I provided was facts along with my opinion. Sorry it was too difficult for you to understand. Again everything I posted number wise is FACT. It's there for you to see if you wish.

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 01:47 PM
Exactly

Great response... goes right along with your new name... IKnowJack....lol.

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 01:51 PM
Lol so you think an opinion means nobody can comment on how idiotic it is but then you yourself call someones response idiotic? Sounds about right

I have an opinion too... MJ isnt in the top 100 players ever... See how dumb this is? Its my opinion... I am entitled to it but its still idiotic.

Where did I say "people couldn't respond?" I provided a valid point with FACTS and the response IN MY OPINION was idioic. I have an opinion too... you're an idiot... see how dumb that sounds right.... goes right along with your post...lol.

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 01:53 PM
Scottie Pippen, in their six rings together, was the one who had more rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and better defender than Jordan. So as much as you want to contribute the wins to Jordan, you are lacking in any substance. Jordan at his peak prime was getting beaten down like a pulp. They were no superteam? Why do you act like they played against a superteam when their competition died out? Bird's Celtics were over, Pistons were over, and Magic's Lakers were depleted. They didn't have your traditional Warriors superteam but they still had the best team and it wasn't close. Last I checked, Horace Grant and Pippen were still very good players at their peak. It's your opinion and my opinion as well that Jordan is the GOAT but your arguments are terribly biased. And those stats you mention are nearly identical. If you really think a few points in PER/WS means as much as you think it does, then you should work for the Houston Rockets.

How exactly was I "biased" when all I provided was fact? Look it up if you don't believe it instead of wasting time posting something so meaningless.

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 01:56 PM
No, I understand you are setting up your parameters to fit your agenda.

You cut off Jordan's prime at age 29. He didn't even start until age 21. You are jacking up your windows to fit your agenda.

As based off of prime... again I apologize it was a little too difficult to understand. It was quite valid and provided nothing but fact.

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 01:59 PM
Somebody post something FACTUAL that proves anything I said wrong. Until then anything if your responses mean nothing more than my next trip to the bathroom. I've produced FACTS, everyone else has not.

Hawkeye15
04-25-2017, 02:21 PM
As based off of prime... again I apologize it was a little too difficult to understand. It was quite valid and provided nothing but fact.

yes, it factually provided a window of years for Jordan that is much smaller, and more favorable mileage wise, for him. By the time you cut off Jordan's prime, LeBron had already played a **** ton more minutes at the same age. So you are leaving out facts in reality.

Here are a few facts for you- LeBron has played the same amount of regular season minutes so far at age 32, as Jordan did his entire career. LeBron has already played 600 minutes more and counting in the playoffs, than Jordan did his entire career.

You are cherry picking. Anyone can do that.

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 02:38 PM
rightttt....... lmao!!! Lebron is still going strong. i mean some can argue other then FT's hes improved every part of his game.


This is what I mean by when I say the truly best most dominant players are pretty much what they are day 1, Lebron weakness coming into the league was FT's, it was listed on his scouting report on draft night, he could do everything else at a high clip, his jumper always has been streaky but he makes up for it with his rim attack aspect but he was always capable of knocking down jumpers, those FT's are just something that will forever be like that, usually happens that way when you are that good coming into the nba, every dominant player to ever play in the nba has had a minor flaw

valade16
04-25-2017, 04:06 PM
Well if you base me off these posts alone then you are in the wilderness lost, Lebron is one of my favorites ever to step onto the hardwood, fact

but I wont sit up here and act like he walks on water, everything I say about Lebron happened, he carried the Cavs first 7 years and lef, then when he had the talent with Heat he went to 4 straight Finals then comes back to Cavs with more talent and has gone to 2 straight and going for 3 in a row, which I always felt he would do and I was glad he left Cavs first time around, I wish some of my other favorites before him would have done that

to say I really really hate Lebron because I am telling it like it is and was is really just ignorant on your part, stop the poppycock, Lebron was one of the best players ever his rookie season, I called it preNBA to be honest

so since I called that does it make me really really love Lebron? no, I just call a spade a spade and keep it moving

Just curious, who all-time do you think is better than LeBron? Like you say he is top 20, but where in the top 20 does he fit for you and who is better?

FlashBolt
04-25-2017, 04:47 PM
How exactly was I "biased" when all I provided was fact? Look it up if you don't believe it instead of wasting time posting something so meaningless.

Something can be biased and factual at the same time. Did you not think that was possible? You're picking out statistics that fits your agenda. It's like me picking LeBron's last five seasons compared to Jordan's last five seasons. Guess who wins?

FlashBolt
04-25-2017, 04:51 PM
no I wont stop, AI was a freak athlete so he would have been a freak at 6'8'', he wouldn't be bigger(bulk/thick wise) just taller, he would be thin like KD, nobody could do what AI did at 5'9'', its why Lebron said he played like a 6'8'' ShootingGuard, who does that at that 5'9''? nobody before nor after

he wouldn't have his super quickness but he would still be dumb quick and his speed would still be there and his jumping/skill would have made him even more feared at that height since he was feared being under 6ft

Physics show that as you have more mass, it will slow you down. Now you're telling us it's the other way? LMFAO, I guess physics is totally a conspiracy as well. AI was not even close to the freak athlete LeBron is. The only comparable guy is Westbrook and that's still discouraging because LeBron is 5 inches taller while being nearly 30 lbs heavier. LeBron is built like Karl Malone but can run as fast as a PG. AI was a freak athlete for HIS size. There's no way to say how he would be if he was 6'8 260 because physics tell a different story.

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 05:31 PM
Just curious, who all-time do you think is better than LeBron? Like you say he is top 20, but where in the top 20 does he fit for you and who is better?

Lebron is in my best ever 20 players no order, I didn't say top 20, I said best ever no order, so I just bunch the best most dominant players of its era and pretty much came to that, reason why I did that is because its too much non sense criteria out here to try and rank players with a number, if you are in my best ever group then I feel you are truly one of the special ones who did it for at least 8-10yrs

its like people on here say well if he wins this ring he will pass him but if he loses he wont drop, when in actuality rather the player loses or not he still is what he is, Jordan got swept by Bird early but Bird called him GOD on the court, when Jordan won the title in 91' he still played on that level but he won the title instead of losing in the first round, Jordan put up like 40+ppg against Bird in that I think 86' series and dropped like 40+ against Suns in 93', same dominant player almost a decade later, that's how I judge players

Lebron didn't drop out of the 20 best ever circle because he had a bad series in 11', just like he didn't move into my circle when he went crazy against Pistons in 07' or that 38/8/8 he put up losing to the Magic, he was already there after 04' season

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 05:38 PM
Physics show that as you have more mass, it will slow you down. Now you're telling us it's the other way? LMFAO, I guess physics is totally a conspiracy as well. AI was not even close to the freak athlete LeBron is. The only comparable guy is Westbrook and that's still discouraging because LeBron is 5 inches taller while being nearly 30 lbs heavier. LeBron is built like Karl Malone but can run as fast as a PG. AI was a freak athlete for HIS size. There's no way to say how he would be if he was 6'8 260 because physics tell a different story.

I was just basing it off how he was built and played with his mindset killer instinct/attack mode, if he was rail thin like he was already built then I don't think he would be 6'8'' 260 but more like KD weight who is a Footer and doesn't weigh no where near 260 even with bricks in his pockets, now if AI was naturally built thick then I would have went with the thought of him being heavier, but he was 150lbs soak and wet, not the 165lbs he was listed and he wasn't 6ft as he was listed, but his wingspan was around 6'5'' with a 40inch vertical, AI wasn't built like Nate Robinson/IT, but you might think that is a conspiracy theory as well

so go laugh about that you conspiracy refuter

you are real something ignorant, your boyfriend Lebron said he played like a 6'8'' ShootingGuard, so how in the world was he not a smaller freak version of Lebron doing that at 5'9''? that's a whole Foot shorter and he played above the rim and attacked the basket like he was Lebron height, its a reason why Lebron had AI poster on the wall growing up

DNA/Science proved that the first people on Earth were Melanin/Africans(Black) and peopled all the entire races on Earth, or do you think that is a conspiracy theory as well?

Hawkeye15
04-25-2017, 05:42 PM
I was just basing it off how he was built and played with his mindset killer instinct/attack mode, if he was rail thin like he was already built then I don't think he would be 6'8'' 260 but more like KD weight who is a Footer and doesn't weigh no where near 260 even with bricks in his pockets, now if AI was naturally built thick then I would have went with the thought of him being heavier, but he was 150lbs soak and wet, not the 165lbs he was listed and he wasn't 6ft as he was listed, but his wingspan was around 6'5'' with a 40inch vertical, AI wasn't built like Nate Robinson/IT, but you might think that is a conspiracy theory as well

so go laugh about that you conspiracy refuter

thing is, we all know guys who could ball at 6'. Not Iverson level for instance, but we see it day in, day out. Smaller guys are more coordinated, quicker, faster, jump higher, etc. Being huge just takes away so much from nearly every human. It's why the NBA, and some other pro sports, are reserved for the freaks.

Would AI have been one? We will never know. But we know evidence shows the bigger you get, the less coordinated, and athletic you get. So it's easier to side with science norms, than the elite exceptions.

More-Than-Most
04-25-2017, 05:51 PM
Lebron is in my best ever 20 players no order, I didn't say top 20, I said best ever no order, so I just bunch the best most dominant players of its era and pretty much came to that, reason why I did that is because its too much non sense criteria out here to try and rank players with a number, if you are in my best ever group then I feel you are truly one of the special ones who did it for at least 8-10yrs

its like people on here say well if he wins this ring he will pass him but if he loses he wont drop, when in actuality rather the player loses or not he still is what he is, Jordan got swept by Bird early but Bird called him GOD on the court, when Jordan won the title in 91' he still played on that level but he won the title instead of losing in the first round, Jordan put up like 40+ppg against Bird in that I think 86' series and dropped like 40+ against Suns in 93', same dominant player almost a decade later, that's how I judge players

Lebron didn't drop out of the 20 best ever circle because he had a bad series in 11', just like he didn't move into my circle when he went crazy against Pistons in 07' or that 38/8/8 he put up losing to the Magic, he was already there after 04' season

Well who is you top 20 players ever in order?

valade16
04-25-2017, 05:58 PM
Lebron is in my best ever 20 players no order, I didn't say top 20, I said best ever no order, so I just bunch the best most dominant players of its era and pretty much came to that, reason why I did that is because its too much non sense criteria out here to try and rank players with a number, if you are in my best ever group then I feel you are truly one of the special ones who did it for at least 8-10yrs

its like people on here say well if he wins this ring he will pass him but if he loses he wont drop, when in actuality rather the player loses or not he still is what he is, Jordan got swept by Bird early but Bird called him GOD on the court, when Jordan won the title in 91' he still played on that level but he won the title instead of losing in the first round, Jordan put up like 40+ppg against Bird in that I think 86' series and dropped like 40+ against Suns in 93', same dominant player almost a decade later, that's how I judge players

Lebron didn't drop out of the 20 best ever circle because he had a bad series in 11', just like he didn't move into my circle when he went crazy against Pistons in 07' or that 38/8/8 he put up losing to the Magic, he was already there after 04' season

To clarify your point, you don't have any rankings outside of whether they are top 20 or not? So my question then is: Who is in your top 20 list?

Are you saying everyone in your top 20 list is equally as good as each other? Like if KG is in your top 20, is he as good in your mind as Shaq if both are on the top 20 list?

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 06:01 PM
thing is, we all know guys who could ball at 6'. Not Iverson level for instance, but we see it day in, day out. Smaller guys are more coordinated, quicker, faster, jump higher, etc. Being huge just takes away so much from nearly every human. It's why the NBA, and some other pro sports, are reserved for the freaks.

Would AI have been one? We will never know. But we know evidence shows the bigger you get, the less coordinated, and athletic you get. So it's easier to side with science norms, than the elite exceptions.

Right on about guys being able to ball at 6'0'', being huge helps big time in a so called natural big mans league so it works both ways, reason why Shaq/Wilt/Lebron can dominate is because the size plays a major factor since it gives them the edge off top then when you add the freak natural ability to it then it really gets crazy good for those type of players and once you had the skill/mental aspect that completes it, AI was just a 5'9'' version, even Shaq said it when they were both in the league, he called AI the little version of him

Shaq and Lebron both acknowledged that AI was a freak of nature, case closed

of course we wont never know because he was what he was, I was just adding inches to what he already had as a little guy(attributes) and along with the comment Lebron made, I said it all along he played bigger than his actual height so it was funny to hear the most dominant player of his era say the same, me and Lebron share something in common, imagine that

its always good to roll with Science/DNA, it eliminates a lot of the allegories that were told by society, cant be mad about that

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 06:05 PM
To clarify your point, you don't have any rankings outside of whether they are top 20 or not? So my question then is: Who is in your top 20 list?

Are you saying everyone in your top 20 list is equally as good as each other? Like if KG is in your top 20, is he as good in your mind as Shaq if both are on the top 20 list?

I would ''rank'' those players in that group as to who I would draft first and go down from there to the next, for instance I would draft Wilt 1st overall over any player in any era, hope that helps you

and I would draft Shaq over KG, hope that helps you even more, so no KG is not as dominant as Shaq but he was something nice

europagnpilgrim
04-25-2017, 06:09 PM
Well who is you top 20 players ever in order?

the best most dominant players of each era, I might have to expand it to 25 depending on how I am feeling that day

it shouldn't be too hard to figure out who were the most dominant players of each era are

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 06:09 PM
yes, it factually provided a window of years for Jordan that is much smaller, and more favorable mileage wise, for him. By the time you cut off Jordan's prime, LeBron had already played a **** ton more minutes at the same age. So you are leaving out facts in reality.

Here are a few facts for you- LeBron has played the same amount of regular season minutes so far at age 32, as Jordan did his entire career. LeBron has already played 600 minutes more and counting in the playoffs, than Jordan did his entire career.

You are cherry picking. Anyone can do that.

Logic tells us Lebron never went to college... you knew that right? Therefore of course Lebron played more games... who cares? It would be impossible to compare the two together because of this. This whole thing was started when this guy wanted to throw out Jordan's 6 for 6 in championships and 6 FMVP's ...... I said fine... let's do that.

I proved LOGICALLY using a sample size best fitted for the argument and PROVED with FACTS that Jordan was better. Nothing was " cherry-picked "..... facts came from the best way to argue it. Nothing I stated was incorrect and was backed up by fact. Jordan was the best no matter how you look at it IMO because you can't throw out what a person did/achieve. Again this was looking at it in a different light that proved with facts that Jordan statistically in " prime years " was just as good/better, played in a better era and was more successful.

You're reaching for straws..... anyone can do that. i thought you said " Jordan was the best "... doesn't seem like it. If you think he is since " you know everything " .... why is Jordan the best? Please educate me.. lol.

Bartlee23
04-25-2017, 06:10 PM
Something can be biased and factual at the same time. Did you not think that was possible? You're picking out statistics that fits your agenda. It's like me picking LeBron's last five seasons compared to Jordan's last five seasons. Guess who wins?

Please see my response to your buddy... don't have time to waste on you. I already proved you wrong in another thread about this.. go pull it up.

valade16
04-25-2017, 06:35 PM
I would ''rank'' those players in that group as to who I would draft first and go down from there to the next, for instance I would draft Wilt 1st overall over any player in any era, hope that helps you

and I would draft Shaq over KG, hope that helps you even more, so no KG is not as dominant as Shaq but he was something nice

Well how many players would you draft over LeBron then?

Jeffy25
04-25-2017, 06:47 PM
Well who is you top 20 players ever in order?

He's been asked this multiple times, he's not answering.

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 11:33 AM
Please see my response to your buddy... don't have time to waste on you. I already proved you wrong in another thread about this.. go pull it up.

Yeah, cause selectivity of data is your specialty. You're not even considering that no one bases things off a short stint of their career. It's the totality of it and quite frankly, LeBron has achieved more at age 32 than Jordan did. So you can break it off into sample sizes so it fits your agenda but it's funny that it's not how it works. By your same standards, you have to put LeBron as the 2nd GOAT. Works for me.

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 11:34 AM
He's been asked this multiple times, he's not answering.

I'm not even sure what he's responding to at this point. He's been asked a direct question for as far as I can tell, four times. Yet, all he does is talk about conspiracy theories. I'm guessing he figured he can't name more than ten players better than LeBron so he doesn't want to get exposed.

IKnowHoops
04-26-2017, 12:29 PM
Logic tells us Lebron never went to college... you knew that right? Therefore of course Lebron played more games... who cares? It would be impossible to compare the two together because of this. This whole thing was started when this guy wanted to throw out Jordan's 6 for 6 in championships and 6 FMVP's ...... I said fine... let's do that.

I proved LOGICALLY using a sample size best fitted for the argument and PROVED with FACTS that Jordan was better. Nothing was " cherry-picked "..... facts came from the best way to argue it. Nothing I stated was incorrect and was backed up by fact. Jordan was the best no matter how you look at it IMO because you can't throw out what a person did/achieve. Again this was looking at it in a different light that proved with facts that Jordan statistically in " prime years " was just as good/better, played in a better era and was more successful.

You're reaching for straws..... anyone can do that. i thought you said " Jordan was the best "... doesn't seem like it. If you think he is since " you know everything " .... why is Jordan the best? Please educate me.. lol.

But you didn't.

IKnowHoops
04-26-2017, 12:41 PM
All I provided was facts along with my opinion. Sorry it was too difficult for you to understand. Again everything I posted number wise is FACT. It's there for you to see if you wish.

Oh no it was the complete opposite actually. The presented comparison was obviously created by such a feeble mind, I couldn't take the result seriously.

I gave you better perimeters of guidance so that you could do the leg work with comparable numbers so I could at least see a more true comparison.

The thing is, you don't have to cheat for mike to make the stats look better. He's always been the better scorer throughout every phase of there careers.

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 12:53 PM
He's been asked this multiple times, he's not answering.

I don't have a order as far as number, I did answer and said I go by who I would draft first and gave an example in earlier post

you are not following my posts correctly, kudos to you and the rest for that

every time I give an example its another question after that or the same ones on repeat, Lebron is one of the guys I would chose to build a franchise with, he is just not the first pick overall I would go with but he is isn't far off, hope that helps

IKnowHoops
04-26-2017, 12:55 PM
thing is, we all know guys who could ball at 6'. Not Iverson level for instance, but we see it day in, day out. Smaller guys are more coordinated, quicker, faster, jump higher, etc. Being huge just takes away so much from nearly every human. It's why the NBA, and some other pro sports, are reserved for the freaks.

Would AI have been one? We will never know. But we know evidence shows the bigger you get, the less coordinated, and athletic you get. So it's easier to side with science norms, than the elite exceptions.

In defense of Iverson, I think we can say without a doubt if Iverson had a growth spurt and grew 8 inches his rookie year, he would of been absolutely disgusting and unstoppable. He would of been even better. Why do I think this?

David Robinson and Anthony Davis were both average 6'3 sgs. Till that blessed year that they both had 9 inch growth spurts and instantly became the best players in the country. Iverson is a freak athlete, him growing would not of taken away that athletic ability. Usually tall lanky guys who lack coordination, explosion or speed, were like that there whole lives. When a kid that is small who is super fast and quick has a growth spurt, he becomes a bigger kid who is now faster (longer strides) but just as quick if not quicker. Athletically you are what you are from birth. How big you get with that athletic ability signals how dominant of an athlete you will be. Iverson at 6'8 would of been disgusting If Drob and AD have anything to say about it.

ewing
04-26-2017, 12:57 PM
In defense of Iverson, I think we can say without a doubt if Iverson had a growth spurt and grew 8 inches his rookie year, he would of been absolutely disgusting and unstoppable. He would of been even better. Why do I think this?

David Robinson and Anthony Davis were both average 6'3 sgs. Till that blessed year that they both had 9 inch growth spurts and instantly became the best players in the country. Iverson is a freak athlete, him growing would not of taken away that athletic ability. Usually tall lanky guys who lack coordination, explosion or speed, were like that there whole lives. When a kid that is small who is super fast and quick has a growth spurt, he becomes a bigger kid who is now faster (longer strides) but just as quick if not quicker. Athletically you are what you are from birth. How big you get with that athletic ability signals how dominant of an athlete you will be. Iverson at 6'8 would of been disgusting If Drob and AD have anything to say about it.

they don't

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 12:58 PM
I'm not even sure what he's responding to at this point. He's been asked a direct question for as far as I can tell, four times. Yet, all he does is talk about conspiracy theories. I'm guessing he figured he can't name more than ten players better than LeBron so he doesn't want to get exposed.

You for sure aren't responding to what I reply to so how direct are you in your replies? I have answered the questions all 4 times, if you don't like the answer then make up one in your sheeple mind and live with it

you are the one who started the conspiracy ******** talk so don't try to flip the script, and if its such a conspiracy theory prove it with facts and quit guessing, prove everything that you feel is a conspiracy theory to be wrong and then you will be taken more seriously, now that's about as direct as I can get

I never said I could name ten players better than Lebron, stop making **** up

how can I get exposed when Lebron is one of the best players to ever step foot on the court and I said that his rookie year, he was in my best ever circle in 04' so did I expose myself to being correct 13 yrs ago?

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 01:10 PM
In defense of Iverson, I think we can say without a doubt if Iverson had a growth spurt and grew 8 inches his rookie year, he would of been absolutely disgusting and unstoppable. He would of been even better. Why do I think this?

David Robinson and Anthony Davis were both average 6'3 sgs. Till that blessed year that they both had 9 inch growth spurts and instantly became the best players in the country. Iverson is a freak athlete, him growing would not of taken away that athletic ability. Usually tall lanky guys who lack coordination, explosion or speed, were like that there whole lives. When a kid that is small who is super fast and quick has a growth spurt, he becomes a bigger kid who is now faster (longer strides) but just as quick if not quicker. Athletically you are what you are from birth. How big you get with that athletic ability signals how dominant of an athlete you will be. Iverson at 6'8 would of been disgusting If Drob and AD have anything to say about it.

Pretty much what i was thinking but I didn't think of the DRob/AD comparison, I was just looking at the natural supreme ability he had at his 5'9'' frame and the wingspan/skill set/mental-physical ability&toughness

he would have been super disgusting at that height especially since he was a killer under 6ft

valade16
04-26-2017, 01:12 PM
I don't have a order as far as number, I did answer and said I go by who I would draft first and gave an example in earlier post

you are not following my posts correctly, kudos to you and the rest for that

every time I give an example its another question after that or the same ones on repeat, Lebron is one of the guys I would chose to build a franchise with, he is just not the first pick overall I would go with but he is isn't far off, hope that helps

I think we all want to know where LeBron would be drafted. What exactly do you mean by "not far off"? Like you'd draft him 4th? 9th? 17th?

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 01:16 PM
I think we all want to know where LeBron would be drafted. What exactly do you mean by "not far off"? Like you'd draft him 4th? 9th? 17th?

right on in 4-17th range, anywhere for sure in that vicinity, I wouldn't dare draft him 18-20/25

now make sure you run and tell all who wanted to know since you heard it first

valade16
04-26-2017, 01:19 PM
right on in 4-17th range, anywhere for sure in that vicinity, I wouldn't dare draft him 18-20/25

now make sure you run and tell all who wanted to know since you heard it first

You can't get more specific than the 4-17 range? Like if you were doing a draft today, what would the order look like?

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 01:25 PM
You can't get more specific than the 4-17 range? Like if you were doing a draft today, what would the order look like?

See what I mean when I say I answer the question and then get asked over and over diff. questions in the same but twisted manner, make sure you tell flashbolt about this as well

valade16
04-26-2017, 01:30 PM
See what I mean when I say I answer the question and then get asked over and over diff. questions, make sure you tell flashbolt about this as well

You didn't answer the question though. Asking where exactly you'd draft him and then saying between 4-17 isn't answering the question.

Where exactly would you draft him?

Hawkeye15
04-26-2017, 01:33 PM
In defense of Iverson, I think we can say without a doubt if Iverson had a growth spurt and grew 8 inches his rookie year, he would of been absolutely disgusting and unstoppable. He would of been even better. Why do I think this?

David Robinson and Anthony Davis were both average 6'3 sgs. Till that blessed year that they both had 9 inch growth spurts and instantly became the best players in the country. Iverson is a freak athlete, him growing would not of taken away that athletic ability. Usually tall lanky guys who lack coordination, explosion or speed, were like that there whole lives. When a kid that is small who is super fast and quick has a growth spurt, he becomes a bigger kid who is now faster (longer strides) but just as quick if not quicker. Athletically you are what you are from birth. How big you get with that athletic ability signals how dominant of an athlete you will be. Iverson at 6'8 would of been disgusting If Drob and AD have anything to say about it.

exceptions happen. But science is working against Iverson, so I rest with that.

Would Iverson had kept an elite amount of athletic ability if he grew 9 inches? The chances are, no.

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 01:37 PM
You didn't answer the question though. Asking where exactly you'd draft him and then saying between 4-17 isn't answering the question.

Where exactly would you draft him?

Sure I answered it, just not the way you wanted it, you pick a spot in that range I gave you so you can be satisfied with the answer you are looking for

valade16
04-26-2017, 01:38 PM
exceptions happen. But science is working against Iverson, so I rest with that.

Would Iverson had kept an elite amount of athletic ability if he grew 9 inches? The chances are, no.

I think he would have kept an elite amount of athletic ability relative to his height. He'd be one of the quickest 6'9" players but not the same quickness as when he was 5'9"

valade16
04-26-2017, 01:41 PM
Sure I answered it, just not the way you wanted it, you pick a spot in that range I gave you so you can be satisfied with the answer you are looking for

I mean if you truly don't have any idea where between 4th and 17th you'd draft him OK, but I feel you are being disingenuous.

Why won't you simply list out who you'd draft 1-20?

Like:

1. MJ
2. Kareem


etc.

That's more so what I wanted to know.

Bartlee23
04-26-2017, 01:41 PM
Yeah, cause selectivity of data is your specialty. You're not even considering that no one bases things off a short stint of their career. It's the totality of it and quite frankly, LeBron has achieved more at age 32 than Jordan did. So you can break it off into sample sizes so it fits your agenda but it's funny that it's not how it works. By your same standards, you have to put LeBron as the 2nd GOAT. Works for me.

Prove me wrong.... let's see some facts. I provided plenty proving my case. Your responses state nothing more than a very poor attempt to degrade what I said. Until you can provide facts... I'm done responding to your failed attempts.

Bartlee23
04-26-2017, 01:44 PM
But you didn't.

Prove me wrong.... let's see some facts. Your response is pointless....fail.

Bartlee23
04-26-2017, 01:49 PM
Yeah, cause selectivity of data is your specialty. You're not even considering that no one bases things off a short stint of their career. It's the totality of it and quite frankly, LeBron has achieved more at age 32 than Jordan did. So you can break it off into sample sizes so it fits your agenda but it's funny that it's not how it works. By your same standards, you have to put LeBron as the 2nd GOAT. Works for me.

Never said LeBron wasn't great.... please show me where I said he wasn't. IMO Jordan is better and I gave legitimate FACTS proving it not even including 6 for 6 finals record and 6 for 6 finals MVP. Get back to me when you can provide something factual.

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 01:50 PM
I mean if you truly don't have any idea where between 4th and 17th you'd draft him OK, but I feel you are being disingenuous.

Why won't you simply list out who you'd draft 1-20?

Like:

1. MJ
2. Kareem


etc.

That's more so what I wanted to know.

You are halfway there and on the right track, now add more to your list and bunch Lebron in your 4-17 (ranked)draft pick range, its who I would draft to start a team and its starts fresh after each selection because I feel my circle of players are all capable of being number 1 picks overall to start a franchise that's why I said I don't put a number/rank for the players like the media has brainwashed most to do

you have to recognize I am letting you create your own answer to this since mine aren't what you are looking for, especially since you told me I am not answering your questions, which I did already over and over

Bartlee23
04-26-2017, 01:52 PM
Oh no it was the complete opposite actually. The presented comparison was obviously created by such a feeble mind, I couldn't take the result seriously.

I gave you better perimeters of guidance so that you could do the leg work with comparable numbers so I could at least see a more true comparison.

The thing is, you don't have to cheat for mike to make the stats look better. He's always been the better scorer throughout every phase of there careers.

No "cheating" there called facts. Keep treading... the water is getting pretty deep.

IKnowHoops
04-26-2017, 02:26 PM
No "cheating" there called facts. Keep treading... the water is getting pretty deep.

Fact: Me and Jordan scored the same amount of points last year. I must be as good as MJ.

That represents the accuracy of your depiction of facts.

valade16
04-26-2017, 02:37 PM
You are halfway there and on the right track, now add more to your list and bunch Lebron in your 4-17 (ranked)draft pick range, its who I would draft to start a team and its starts fresh after each selection because I feel my circle of players are all capable of being number 1 picks overall to start a franchise that's why I said I don't put a number/rank for the players like the media has brainwashed most to do

you have to recognize I am letting you create your own answer to this since mine aren't what you are looking for, especially since you told me I am not answering your questions, which I did already over and over

Your refusal to simply state where exactly you'd draft LeBron suggests you recognize it is lower than most have him and your top 20 characterization of him is not the compliment you made it out to be but you don't want to admit you were disingenuous.

Since you continue to beat around the bush, I will take the opposite approach and be blunt: I think that's cowardly.

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 02:49 PM
You for sure aren't responding to what I reply to so how direct are you in your replies? I have answered the questions all 4 times, if you don't like the answer then make up one in your sheeple mind and live with it

you are the one who started the conspiracy ******** talk so don't try to flip the script, and if its such a conspiracy theory prove it with facts and quit guessing, prove everything that you feel is a conspiracy theory to be wrong and then you will be taken more seriously, now that's about as direct as I can get

I never said I could name ten players better than Lebron, stop making **** up

how can I get exposed when Lebron is one of the best players to ever step foot on the court and I said that his rookie year, he was in my best ever circle in 04' so did I expose myself to being correct 13 yrs ago?
I never said anything about conspiracy theories until you kept making them. It was you who started bringing up the war in Iraq and all that gibberish. Lastly, if you can't name ten players better than LeBron, why do you say he's a top 20 player? You're contradicting yourself. If you think he's a top ten player, then you should say top ten

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 02:52 PM
Never said LeBron wasn't great.... please show me where I said he wasn't. IMO Jordan is better and I gave legitimate FACTS proving it not even including 6 for 6 finals record and 6 for 6 finals MVP. Get back to me when you can provide something factual.

No one said Lebron is better than jordan. I think that's the underlying emotional aspect you're confusing yourself with. Your selectivity of those "facts" are clearly done so to make jordan seem superior. But we're all in agreement that jordan is better than LeBron. Just wish you would be more fair in how you portray those two.

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 02:54 PM
Prove me wrong.... let's see some facts. I provided plenty proving my case. Your responses state nothing more than a very poor attempt to degrade what I said. Until you can provide facts... I'm done responding to your failed attempts.
You want facts regarding what? Lebron achieving more than jordan at age 32? What is it you want? I can do what you did and say LeBron was better at X because he did this. If you're going to compare a player, at least have a consistent factor

Bartlee23
04-26-2017, 06:39 PM
Fact: Me and Jordan scored the same amount of points last year. I must be as good as MJ.

That represents the accuracy of your depiction of facts.

I'll take this as a waive of the white flag as you've lived up to your new name IKnowJack. You have nothing valid to contribute, nothing worth reading and to be honest I question your age/intelligence with your posts.

Bartlee23
04-26-2017, 07:00 PM
You want facts regarding what? Lebron achieving more than jordan at age 32? What is it you want? I can do what you did and say LeBron was better at X because he did this. If you're going to compare a player, at least have a consistent factor

My suggestion is you learn how to read and not just spew out meaningless comments that show lack of intelligence. For the last time another poster (not you.... quit getting your panties in a bunch) stated Lebron was "the GOAT" because you "can't count championships and finals MVP's" I showed the person in a very well thought out, logical way to compare the two using as close as possible peak years played.

LeBron didn't go to college so yes he's going to have more games played. Jordan suffered though a broken foot and retired but still came back to be a great player despite taking time off. Just think if Jordan didn't retire what his numbers would look like? Again I never stated Lebron wasn't a great player, he's one of the best all time. I simply stated IMO with factual evidence and the best way I could do it that Jordan produced as good/ better numbers, played in a more difficult era and was much more successful.

If you would like to provide factual information that LeBron is "better than Jordan in his 30's" please feel free, I'll wait for the read.... if not, I'll just wait until he wins 3 in a row with 3 finals MVP'S.... then we'll talk. Again I never said Lebron wasn't great and was only responding to another person's post. It was you and a couple other people that ran off on your childish tangents when all I provided was facts...... to each their own.

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 07:24 PM
I never said anything about conspiracy theories until you kept making them. It was you who started bringing up the war in Iraq and all that gibberish. Lastly, if you can't name ten players better than LeBron, why do you say he's a top 20 player? You're contradicting yourself. If you think he's a top ten player, then you should say top ten

That's what I am talking about, I was presenting factual scenarios where the powers that be play on the sheeple and you called me a conspiracy theorist, refuting a ******** news story is called telling the truth not a damn brainwashed phrase titled ''conspiracy theorist'', I called a spade a spade, so you mentioned the word/term conspiracy theorist over and over and other ******** words so I start calling you back the same ******** in other words, I was showing you the many examples of brainwashing since you felt that repetition is not apart of brainwashing when it fact it is one of the top 3 tools used for it

you were so stumped you claimed I was trying to argue/debate that 2+2 doesn't equal 4, that's how stumped you were, we all learned 2+2 = 4 because of the school system teaching(brainwashing) us over and over at a young age,duh, just like they taught us that dumb **** about Columbus discovering something that already existed, The Americas now known as the United States of America

Lebron is one of the best most dominant players ever, if I say that then whats the big deal? like I said you want me to answer it how you feel it should be and brainwashed that way to think, I don't operate like that, I do as I feel in my own lane

you say ''top'' I say ''best most dominant'', you are trying to act like I am contradicting myself because you have been stumped by my spectacular vernacular, ''greatest'' doesn't mean the best most dominant in my world, greatest is a media fed word to decipher the players they want to prop up to the masses that they hand pick

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 07:27 PM
Your refusal to simply state where exactly you'd draft LeBron suggests you recognize it is lower than most have him and your top 20 characterization of him is not the compliment you made it out to be but you don't want to admit you were disingenuous.

Since you continue to beat around the bush, I will take the opposite approach and be blunt: I think that's cowardly.

you think its cowardly, so be it, Takes one to know one, kudos to you for that

your refusal to accept my statements are a personal problem and you just keep reaching and reaching when I laid it out for you, rehab well

Of course it is a compliment to be in my circle of best most dominant players ever in the entire history of the NBA, that's real impressive for all sports worldwide, he could be as high as 4th and you saying that is not a compliment? you are really butt hurt for some dumb reason and that's the reason why i left it up to you because you wont accept anything i say, you just piggyback off that to the next question, its like you are searching for Nemo or someting

valade16
04-26-2017, 07:30 PM
Duplicate post.

valade16
04-26-2017, 07:30 PM
you think its cowardly, so be it, Takes one to know one, kudos to you for that

your refusal to accept my statements are a personal problem and you just keep reaching and reaching when I laid it out for you, rehab well

Takes one to know one? Cowardly isn't a noun :laugh2:

I think you know exactly what we were asking, you just don't want to answer. If it isn't cowardice, then why not simply state the exact order you'd draft your top 20 and where LeBron would be drafted?

It's not hard.

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 07:30 PM
Fact: Me and Jordan scored the same amount of points last year. I must be as good as MJ.

That represents the accuracy of your depiction of facts.

How much did you score between 82-1993, then 96-1998? if you put it down like he did from UNC to Chicago and even as a 40yr old in Washington then you may be as good as MJ or just another Lavar Ball

europagnpilgrim
04-26-2017, 07:33 PM
Takes one to know one? Cowardly isn't a noun :laugh2:

I think you know exactly what we were asking, you just don't want to answer. If it isn't cowardice, then why not simply state the exact order you'd draft your top 20 and where LeBron would be drafted?

It's not hard.

cow·ard·ly -


lacking courage


faint-hearted, lily-livered, spineless, chicken-hearted, craven, timid, timorous, fearful, pusillanimous


Like I said takes one to know one, laugh about that, put more smiley faces next time

and since you are so into the noun/adjective/verb why don't you keep going and teach me the 2000 languages that came out of Africa, please do

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 07:33 PM
My suggestion is you learn how to read and not just spew out meaningless comments that show lack of intelligence. For the last time another poster (not you.... quit getting your panties in a bunch) stated Lebron was "the GOAT" because you "can't count championships and finals MVP's" I showed the person in a very well thought out, logical way to compare the two using as close as possible peak years played.

LeBron didn't go to college so yes he's going to have more games played. Jordan suffered though a broken foot and retired but still came back to be a great player despite taking time off. Just think if Jordan didn't retire what his numbers would look like? Again I never stated Lebron wasn't a great player, he's one of the best all time. I simply stated IMO with factual evidence and the best way I could do it that Jordan produced as good/ better numbers, played in a more difficult era and was much more successful.

If you would like to provide factual information that LeBron is "better than Jordan in his 30's" please feel free, I'll wait for the read.... if not, I'll just wait until he wins 3 in a row with 3 finals MVP'S.... then we'll talk. Again I never said Lebron wasn't great and was only responding to another person's post. It was you and a couple other people that ran off on your childish tangents when all I provided was facts...... to each their own.

What evidence do you want? That LeBron achieved more than Jordan at age 32? I'm not sure what you're asking for.

valade16
04-26-2017, 08:59 PM
cow·ard·ly -

lacking courage

faint-hearted, lily-livered, spineless, chicken-hearted, craven, timid, timorous, fearful, pusillanimous

Like I said takes one to know one, laugh about that, put more smiley faces next time

and since you are so into the noun/adjective/verb why don't you keep going and teach me the 2000 languages that came out of Africa, please do

I said the act was cowardly, not that you were a coward. So "takes one to know one" doesn't make sense.

It's OK, I understand you are defensive because people called you out on your BS claim that you were honoring LeBron by saying he was Top 20.

Is there any other reason you won't simply give us the exact ranking of where you'd draft LeBron?

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 09:18 PM
"LeBron is a top 20 player."

"I never said there were ten players better than LeBron."

What the fck are you saying then?

valade16
04-26-2017, 09:41 PM
"LeBron is a top 20 player."

"I never said there were ten players better than LeBron."

What the fck are you saying then?

He also said LeBron is somewhere in the 4-17 range.

FlashBolt
04-26-2017, 09:47 PM
He also said LeBron is somewhere in the 4-17 range.

that would make sense if there were legitimately 14 players that are equally as good as LeBron. It's like if there were 14 damn lebron james. There's only one LeBron, though. And I don't see how you can legitimately sit there and type up 10 names , let alone 16 better than LeBron.

IKnowHoops
04-26-2017, 10:23 PM
I'll take this as a waive of the white flag as you've lived up to your new name IKnowJack. You have nothing valid to contribute, nothing worth reading and to be honest I question your age/intelligence with your posts.

Hey I stated FACTS just like you. Facts without context mean nothing. Your facts mean as much as my facts. Pull stats from the same ages. How hard is this for u to understand guy.

IKnowHoops
04-26-2017, 10:27 PM
you think its cowardly, so be it, Takes one to know one, kudos to you for that

your refusal to accept my statements are a personal problem and you just keep reaching and reaching when I laid it out for you, rehab well

Of course it is a compliment to be in my circle of best most dominant players ever in the entire history of the NBA, that's real impressive for all sports worldwide, he could be as high as 4th and you saying that is not a compliment? you are really butt hurt for some dumb reason and that's the reason why i left it up to you because you wont accept anything i say, you just piggyback off that to the next question, its like you are searching for Nemo or someting

He can't make a top 20 list. He just can't. Top 20 is as specific as he can be. Some can make a top 20, some just don't have the ability to. Is what it is.

IKnowHoops
04-26-2017, 10:29 PM
How much did you score between 82-1993, then 96-1998? if you put it down like he did from UNC to Chicago and even as a 40yr old in Washington then you may be as good as MJ or just another Lavar Ball

I'm just spitting out FACTS. Context doesn't matter in this thread apparently.

europagnpilgrim
04-27-2017, 09:17 AM
I said the act was cowardly, not that you were a coward. So "takes one to know one" doesn't make sense.

It's OK, I understand you are defensive because people called you out on your BS claim that you were honoring LeBron by saying he was Top 20.

Is there any other reason you won't simply give us the exact ranking of where you'd draft LeBron?

if I said that was a ***** made move in essence I am saying you are ***** made

if someone does a cowardly act that makes him a coward

if someone beats on his wife/girl that makes it domestic violence/woman beater, the act makes it that way

europagnpilgrim
04-27-2017, 09:20 AM
"LeBron is a top 20 player."

"I never said there were ten players better than LeBron."

What the fck are you saying then?

What the fck don't you understand?

obviously you are just cherry picking posts, go back and post everything I have mentioned and you will find out what the fck I am saying

you never mentioned me saying its 10 players better, I don't have a top numerical list, I have a circle/box and I go by who I would draft 1st overall and then it all starts over on who I would pick on to the next best most dominant player, Lebron is in that circle, the best of the best is just that, they don't need a number/ranking, if you feel they do then that's on you

europagnpilgrim
04-27-2017, 09:22 AM
I'm just spitting out FACTS. Context doesn't matter in this thread apparently.

what matters is how you see it, kudos for spitting out your facts

opinions are like *******s, truth is well just that, it needs no context

europagnpilgrim
04-27-2017, 09:28 AM
that would make sense if there were legitimately 14 players that are equally as good as LeBron. It's like if there were 14 damn lebron james. There's only one LeBron, though. And I don't see how you can legitimately sit there and type up 10 names , let alone 16 better than LeBron.

4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17

Theres only 1 of whoever is in my best most dominant list, those are the draft slots Lebron can be had, now use your imagination about him going as high as 4 and as low as 17, which I wouldn't have said the 17 if it wasn't for your buddy on here who kept harping on the numbers game, he/she typed up 4th or 9th or 17th, so I bunched those numbers together to keep the debate going

if Lebron is drafted as high as 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th how can it be 10 players I would take over him to start a franchise? you get more ignorant by the second, reading is fundamental

europagnpilgrim
04-27-2017, 09:33 AM
He can't make a top 20 list. He just can't. Top 20 is as specific as he can be. Some can make a top 20, some just don't have the ability to. Is what it is.

I could easily name 20 players who I would pick/draft to start a franchise, I might stretch it to 25 since its been a lot of dominant players to play in the league

but keep thinking that so it makes you sleep well at night

valade16
04-27-2017, 12:45 PM
What the fck don't you understand?

obviously you are just cherry picking posts, go back and post everything I have mentioned and you will find out what the fck I am saying

you never mentioned me saying its 10 players better, I don't have a top numerical list, I have a circle/box and I go by who I would draft 1st overall and then it all starts over on who I would pick on to the next best most dominant player, Lebron is in that circle, the best of the best is just that, they don't need a number/ranking, if you feel they do then that's on you

This is what I don't understand. Why can't you just give us who you'd draft?

Who would you draft first?

1. Wilt

Ok, so supposing Wilt was drafted, who would you then draft?

2. MJ

OK, supposing Wilt and MJ were drafted who would you draft?

In that way you can create a list of people you would draft 20 long. I don't understand why that is so difficult.

valade16
04-27-2017, 12:46 PM
I could easily name 20 players who I would pick/draft to start a franchise, I might stretch it to 25 since its been a lot of dominant players to play in the league

but keep thinking that so it makes you sleep well at night

Then name them. Who are your 20?

Hawkeye15
04-27-2017, 01:48 PM
if I said that was a ***** made move in essence I am saying you are ***** made

if someone does a cowardly act that makes him a coward

if someone beats on his wife/girl that makes it domestic violence/woman beater, the act makes it that way

Coward is up to opinion though. What you think is a coward move might be looked at as an intelligent move by another.

Even the biggest LeBron hater has him top 10 at this point. The average person top 5-6. His homers top 2.

prodigy
05-01-2017, 09:29 AM
Lebron should be everyone's #1 pick if they were starting a team. The man can do everything and can lead/carry subpar teams to the finals as proven. To be honest we really don't know if Jordan could. His teams that won ships were all really good. When he left those teams were still really good lol. SO its hard to know. Lebron is just sick.

Call me a homer if you want. I honestly never cared for Lebron. not my fav cav and never will be, but common now lets not act crazy.

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 10:44 AM
Lebron should be everyone's #1 pick if they were starting a team. The man can do everything and can lead/carry subpar teams to the finals as proven. To be honest we really don't know if Jordan could. His teams that won ships were all really good. When he left those teams were still really good lol. SO its hard to know. Lebron is just sick.

Call me a homer if you want. I honestly never cared for Lebron. not my fav cav and never will be, but common now lets not act crazy.

starting from scratch, and knowing what kind of player I get:

Jordan
Shaq
Kareem
LeBron

That is the order I would draft in. Shaq, all time, is going to finish below the 2 guys I listed after him. But I know I have a 5-6 year window where he shifts defenses, and changes the game, and all you need to do is get a defense, and a slasher/shooters, and you are winning a chip.

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 11:09 AM
Coward is up to opinion though. What you think is a coward move might be looked at as an intelligent move by another.

Even the biggest LeBron hater has him top 10 at this point. The average person top 5-6. His homers top 2.

Of course you could flip it because even the biggest Lebron hater could have him top 20 and some could have him top 10

if I called you a *****, your girlfriend/wife or mother may think you are a tough/stand up guy, so of course its opinion, just like he thought I was doing something of a coward, where as others think I am not and never could be based on how I am daily

I feel like what I was doing was intelligent but who was responding to me thought otherwise

I go by who I would draft and move on to the next player, Lebron is up there on players I would draft to start a franchise from scratch, nothing more or less

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 11:17 AM
This is what I don't understand. Why can't you just give us who you'd draft?

Who would you draft first?

1. Wilt

Ok, so supposing Wilt was drafted, who would you then draft?

2. MJ

OK, supposing Wilt and MJ were drafted who would you draft?

In that way you can create a list of people you would draft 20 long. I don't understand why that is so difficult.

Now once again use your imagination and put Lebron in the 4-17th range, you could put him as high as 4th if you want or wherever you feel after that to find your answer, I don't understand why that is so difficult for you to do

I have my list written down that I have to look for so I don't know the exact draft pick upon draft pick scale to name off top but those two players you mentioned are up there, Wilt is the player I would draft overall over any player in any era

a while back me and a few others did a draft list on who we felt were the best most dominant players and who we would draft because that's how you really know who are the actual best players, the ones you would start with from scratch are the truly best players ever all time

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 11:35 AM
Of course you could flip it because even the biggest Lebron hater could have him top 20 and some could have him top 10

if I called you a *****, your girlfriend/wife or mother may think you are a tough/stand up guy, so of course its opinion, just like he thought I was doing something of a coward, where as others think I am not and never could be based on how I am daily

I feel like what I was doing was intelligent but who was responding to me thought otherwise

I go by who I would draft and move on to the next player, Lebron is up there on players I would draft to start a franchise from scratch, nothing more or less

I guess I don't care enough to try and get you to form a list, where you have someone is not my concern. I get that you don't care to put much effort into your ranking, most do. Is what it is.

valade16
05-01-2017, 11:43 AM
Now once again use your imagination and put Lebron in the 4-17th range, you could put him as high as 4th if you want or wherever you feel after that to find your answer, I don't understand why that is so difficult for you to do

I have my list written down that I have to look for so I don't know the exact draft pick upon draft pick scale to name off top but those two players you mentioned are up there, Wilt is the player I would draft overall over any player in any era

a while back me and a few others did a draft list on who we felt were the best most dominant players and who we would draft because that's how you really know who are the actual best players, the ones you would start with from scratch are the truly best players ever all time

I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to do.

So you would take Wilt 1st?

Good, so your list thus far is:

1. Wilt

now supposing Wilt was drafted first, who would you draft 2nd?

Bartlee23
05-01-2017, 11:57 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions on " who is the greatest of all-time ", " who they would draft first ', etc,etc but the truth is.....it's nearly impossible to judge as people look at things different ways than others. I rate Jordan as the GOAT because I witnessed his entire NBA career. He was the best I ever saw.

I never witnessed Wilt or Russell play,therefore I can not judge them and it would be unfair to give an opinion about them because they very well could of been better than anyone I saw play. Kareem I did see play and he is right there up at the top as well as for me Magic and Bird. Lebron is the best today and has been for a number of years and when everything is said and done IMO will go down as a top 10 player on my list of players I witnessed.

Larry Bird to me will always rank as a player I would take ahead of Lebron but again that is MY opinion. I question how many people on here even saw him play. I sometimes even question how many people actually saw Jordan's full NBA career?

If you google “Larry Bird”, you’re not going to find flashy highlights. You’re not going to see a player who was more athletic than his opponents. In fact, you’ll find a player who had below average athletic ability than most NBA players. What you’ll find is a player who was the best thinker on the floor. You’ll find an all-time elite shooter. You’ll find a player who would sacrifice everything to win. You’ll find a player who gave more effort than everyone in the league. You’ll find a player who made his teammates better. You’ll find a player that could have done a lot more on an individual level because of his great skill, but always did his work in the framework of a “team first” approach. You’ll find a player who raised his game in the big moments. You’ll find a true winner in every sense of the word.

Larry Bird had an ability to raise his game to another level when the game was on the line. In the history of basketball, there’s really only one player that matches Bird in this area and that’s Michael Jordan. Players feared Bird at the end of the game. They would double team him and they still couldn’t stop him. He made game winning shot after game winning shot. He demanded the basketball and he delivered. His exceptional shooting ability put him in a superior class in NBA history. Bird was one of the best pure shooters who ever played basketball.

Bird took a team that won 29 games to an NBA Championship in his second year in the league. Lebron James certainly did a lot make his team a winner. You don’t make the NBA Finals that many times in a row without doing that. However, again, IMO Bird was just at another level. If you look at their numbers during prime years, they are very similar.

Larry Bird IMO was a better basketball player than Lebron James. It’s unfortunate that so many fans and media members forget just how good “Larry Legend” was. It’s also unfortunate that many fans in the younger generation never had the privilege of watching Bird play in his prime years. Athletically Lebron beats Bird by a landslide,but if I'm picking a starting 5 to start a team from the players I've witnessed and what they can bring to my team..... I don't have Lebron in my starting 5 knowing what I've witnessed but again that's my opinion, it may not be yours....... to each their own.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 12:11 PM
euro, you can't make a list because it will contradict your hatred for LeBron. It's pretty simple. But you can go to sleep thinking you're awesome and whatever it is. Oh wow, you used the F word. Never seen that before from you. Seems like you're a tad bit upset now.

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 12:22 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions on " who is the greatest of all-time ", " who they would draft first ', etc,etc but the truth is.....it's nearly impossible to judge as people look at things different ways than others. I rate Jordan as the GOAT because I witnessed his entire NBA career. He was the best I ever saw.

I never witnessed Wilt or Russell play,therefore I can not judge them and it would be unfair to give an opinion about them because they very well could of been better than anyone I saw play. Kareem I did see play and he is right there up at the top as well as for me Magic and Bird. Lebron is the best today and has been for a number of years and when everything is said and done IMO will go down as a top 10 player on my list of players I witnessed.

Larry Bird to me will always rank as a player I would take ahead of Lebron but again that is MY opinion. I question how many people on here even saw him play. I sometimes even question how many people actually saw Jordan's full NBA career?

If you google “Larry Bird”, you’re not going to find flashy highlights. You’re not going to see a player who was more athletic than his opponents. In fact, you’ll find a player who had below average athletic ability than most NBA players. What you’ll find is a player who was the best thinker on the floor. You’ll find an all-time elite shooter. You’ll find a player who would sacrifice everything to win. You’ll find a player who gave more effort than everyone in the league. You’ll find a player who made his teammates better. You’ll find a player that could have done a lot more on an individual level because of his great skill, but always did his work in the framework of a “team first” approach. You’ll find a player who raised his game in the big moments. You’ll find a true winner in every sense of the word.

Larry Bird had an ability to raise his game to another level when the game was on the line. In the history of basketball, there’s really only one player that matches Bird in this area and that’s Michael Jordan. Players feared Bird at the end of the game. They would double team him and they still couldn’t stop him. He made game winning shot after game winning shot. He demanded the basketball and he delivered. His exceptional shooting ability put him in a superior class in NBA history. Bird was one of the best pure shooters who ever played basketball.

Bird took a team that won 29 games to an NBA Championship in his second year in the league. Lebron James certainly did a lot make his team a winner. You don’t make the NBA Finals that many times in a row without doing that. However, again, IMO Bird was just at another level. If you look at their numbers during prime years, they are very similar.

Larry Bird IMO was a better basketball player than Lebron James. It’s unfortunate that so many fans and media members forget just how good “Larry Legend” was. It’s also unfortunate that many fans in the younger generation never had the privilege of watching Bird play in his prime years. Athletically Lebron beats Bird by a landslide,but if I'm picking a starting 5 to start a team from the players I've witnessed and what they can bring to my team..... I don't have Lebron in my starting 5 knowing what I've witnessed but again that's my opinion, it may not be yours....... to each their own.

I watched Bird. He wasn't the defensive player LeBron was, his longevity sucks, and as great as he was, underperformed a few times in the playoffs when his team was favored (when wasn't his team favored btw).

LeBron has for sure passed him as the greatest SF ever. Hell, at this point, LeBron has played much longer than Bird ever did, and accomplished a lot more.

Jeffy25
05-01-2017, 12:35 PM
There is no reality where Bird is ahead of LeBron all time. He passed him a couple of years ago. He has passed him in basically every thing.

Jeffy25
05-01-2017, 12:38 PM
And Bird was my favorite player growing up, I'm from Indiana

valade16
05-01-2017, 12:54 PM
There is no reality where Bird is ahead of LeBron all time. He passed him a couple of years ago. He has passed him in basically every thing.

Even if you reduce it down to Titles, LeBron has as many as Bird and it's not like Bird's teams weren't stacked either.

Bartlee23
05-01-2017, 12:59 PM
I watched Bird. He wasn't the defensive player LeBron was, his longevity sucks, and as great as he was, underperformed a few times in the playoffs when his team was favored (when wasn't his team favored btw).

LeBron has for sure passed him as the greatest SF ever. Hell, at this point, LeBron has played much longer than Bird ever did, and accomplished a lot more.

Again.... I stated MY opinion.. not yours. Lebron is hands down a more athletic player than Bird. You take Lebron great.... I'm perfectly fine with Bird.

As far as the defense part goes... yes athletically Lebron is a better defender but stat wise during prime years their rebounding,steals and block stats are very similar. If I want a guy with the ball in his hands to do basically anything IMO I give it to Bird 10 out of 10 times.

I had no problem with Bird's defense as I knew he was going to give 100% effort every play. Longevity to me really doesn't mean to much as Lebron never went to college and never suffered a major injury to keep him out of a long period of games.

As far as the " favored " part... where do I start? Bird's teams were not favored every year. Also with the " under-performing" Lebron has some of the worst Finals performances ever. He was a Ray Allen shot away from having the most epic failure in Miami with his years there.

Lebron James has never been known for his clutch play. In fact, there have been many times in his career where he would shy away from taking the last shot. Opponents did not fear Lebron taking the last shot as they did with Bird. Why? Because he isn’t a very good outside shooter. Opponents are perfectly fine with him taking the last shot from outside of 15 feet. The fear is really around him getting to the basket. He is certainly superior to Bird in that phase of the game. He has made some big shots, but he’s not in the same league as Bird in this category.

Again this is my opinion. If you take Lebron great.... I'm happy for you. He's one of the best. I'll be very satisfied with Bird.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 01:08 PM
Sad part is people keep thinking Bird is "clutch" when he's been absolutely terrible in many playoffs series. More-so than LeBron ever was. If there was social media back then, Bird wouldn't be regarded as clutch. He's hit his fair amount of plays but he's lost way too many series as the best player on the better team. If you have Bird over LeBron, I'm not sure what your bias is but there really isn't much of a debate.

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 01:24 PM
Sad part is people keep thinking Bird is "clutch" when he's been absolutely terrible in many playoffs series. More-so than LeBron ever was. If there was social media back then, Bird wouldn't be regarded as clutch. He's hit his fair amount of plays but he's lost way too many series as the best player on the better team. If you have Bird over LeBron, I'm not sure what your bias is but there really isn't much of a debate.


No way in the world would I draft Bird over Lebron to start a team from scratch

many players can be dissected, just like Lebron wasn't the a loser the media claimed him to be and still was one of the best players ever prior to joining the Heat and winning a ring when all the talk was he needed to win a title, no he didn't but the media can brainwash you to think that, just as you speak of Bird being so clutch, which was media driven rather social media existed or not, its all media agenda

see that's the thing I always was pro Lebron but he can be dissected as well just like others and he has his flaws as well

Lebron has lost also being on the better team while being the best player but it doesn't take away from what they are, especially when you watch a player for a decade plus

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 01:32 PM
euro, you can't make a list because it will contradict your hatred for LeBron. It's pretty simple. But you can go to sleep thinking you're awesome and whatever it is. Oh wow, you used the F word. Never seen that before from you. Seems like you're a tad bit upset now.

So if I draft Lebron in your so called top 5-10 how would that equate to hatred? how do I hate a man/player that I said was one of the best ever players after/during his rookie year? did you have that type of thinking during his rookie year? or did you wait 10-12yrs later to decide where Lebron ranks?

when did I use the F word? I said the B word, but whatever makes you feel good think it, good job

I am very awesome, to the core

upset about what? I was giving an example using the B word so I cant be mad about that, once again whatever makes you sleep well at night, think it since its your free will to do so

you are quite the character, first you claim I am a conspiracy theorist(I am a truth teller) ,then you claim I am contradicting myself for unknown reasons then you claim I am mad by using words that I haven't even used, I am buying your next stand up comedy ticket ASAP, wont miss it for the world

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 01:57 PM
Again.... I stated MY opinion.. not yours. Lebron is hands down a more athletic player than Bird. You take Lebron great.... I'm perfectly fine with Bird.

As far as the defense part goes... yes athletically Lebron is a better defender but stat wise during prime years their rebounding,steals and block stats are very similar. If I want a guy with the ball in his hands to do basically anything IMO I give it to Bird 10 out of 10 times.

I had no problem with Bird's defense as I knew he was going to give 100% effort every play. Longevity to me really doesn't mean to much as Lebron never went to college and never suffered a major injury to keep him out of a long period of games.

As far as the " favored " part... where do I start? Bird's teams were not favored every year. Also with the " under-performing" Lebron has some of the worst Finals performances ever. He was a Ray Allen shot away from having the most epic failure in Miami with his years there.

Lebron James has never been known for his clutch play. In fact, there have been many times in his career where he would shy away from taking the last shot. Opponents did not fear Lebron taking the last shot as they did with Bird. Why? Because he isn’t a very good outside shooter. Opponents are perfectly fine with him taking the last shot from outside of 15 feet. The fear is really around him getting to the basket. He is certainly superior to Bird in that phase of the game. He has made some big shots, but he’s not in the same league as Bird in this category.

Again this is my opinion. If you take Lebron great.... I'm happy for you. He's one of the best. I'll be very satisfied with Bird.

LeBron was just a better defender, period. Better in nearly ever sense, and Bird wasn't a bad defender by any means, it's just that LeBron was elite.

as far as their stats, Bird played in the track meet 80's, so make sure and adjust for possession based. Both were superior passing forwards, who rebounded well. That much they have in common. LeBron is the better distributor, but Bird had amazing vision.

Bird played 9 healthy years. Due to coming in later, his body, and his style of play, he lasted only so long. He doesn't get a pass for being hurt. His body of work is his body of work.

Bird's teams were favored in, and more talented, than most teams they played against. He got his butt kicked a few times by lesser teams to the degree we have never seen LeBron do, even in his 2011 finals (the lone series that makes me scratch my head when it comes to LeBron). Ray Allen's shot wouldn't have mattered had LeBron not gone nova and brought the Heat back within striking distance, but who remembers that, right?

Clutch? I have had this debate many times. It's a made up word.

Bird is maybe a top 10 player ever. Right around the level. LeBron passed him already. But, whatever floats your boat. You just don't have much of a case outside your personal preference, because LeBron beats him up in most denominators.

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 02:00 PM
I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to do.

So you would take Wilt 1st?

Good, so your list thus far is:

1. Wilt

now supposing Wilt was drafted first, who would you draft 2nd?

with the next selection in the most dominant ever draft, I probably would go with KAJ-Alcindor/Jordan/Russell, one of those 3 and possibly even a Shaq

I cant find my list so I cant post my actual results and I would be just guessing from here on out, I have a bunch of clutter I would have to go through and just don't have the patience for that right now

but I know Wilt for sure overall in any era because he is the most dominant solo act ever in nba history

valade16
05-01-2017, 02:03 PM
Sad part is people keep thinking Bird is "clutch" when he's been absolutely terrible in many playoffs series. More-so than LeBron ever was. If there was social media back then, Bird wouldn't be regarded as clutch. He's hit his fair amount of plays but he's lost way too many series as the best player on the better team. If you have Bird over LeBron, I'm not sure what your bias is but there really isn't much of a debate.

I think he'd be regarded as clutch no matter what. Looking at Bird's career playoff losing series here is what he did:

1980: lost ECF vs 76ers 2-4
1981: Won Finals
1982: Lost ECF vs 76ers 3-4
1983: Lost 2nd Rd vs Bucks 0-4
1984: Won Finals vs Lakers
1985: Lost Finals vs Lakers 2-4
1986: Won Finals vs Rockets
1987: Lost Finals vs Lakers 2-4
1988: Lost ECF vs Pistons 2-4
1990: Lost 1st Rd vs Knicks 2-3
1991: Lost 2nd Rd vs Pistons 2-4
1992: Lost 2nd Rd vs Cavs 3-4 (Larry only played half the series)

So looking at his playoffs:

He lost to the Lakers twice (and beat them once)

He lost to the 76ers twice (and beat them twice) and one of those times was his rookie season
He lost to the Pistons twice (and beat them once) and one of those times was post-back injury
He lost to the Knicks and Cavs post back surgery

So really the only team he for sure flopped against in terms of who the Celtics should have beaten was the Milwaukee Bucks in 1983.

Other than that his prime was him losing to historically good teams like the Lakers, 76ers, and Pistons. Certainly no shame in that. I mean, when the Celtics were at their peak they went to 4 straight Finals, which is exactly what LeBron's Heat did. I mean, before his surgery in 1989 the Celtics only failed to make the ECF one time and they went to more Finals (5) than they didn't (4). When it comes to playoff success, Larry Bird has a tremendous amount of success compared to failure.

valade16
05-01-2017, 02:05 PM
with the next selection in the most dominant ever draft, I probably would go with KAJ-Alcindor/Jordan/Russell, one of those 3 and possibly even a Shaq

I cant find my list so I cant post my actual results and I would be just guessing from here on out, I have a bunch of clutter I would have to go through and just don't have the patience for that right now

but I know Wilt for sure overall in any era because he is the most dominant solo act ever in nba history

And that's fine.

So #1 is Wilt. 2-4 would be Kareem, MJ, and Russell but you're not sure of the order. #5 would be Shaq. Would LeBron be #6 or would there be someone else?

Bartlee23
05-01-2017, 02:20 PM
LeBron was just a better defender, period. Better in nearly ever sense, and Bird wasn't a bad defender by any means, it's just that LeBron was elite.

as far as their stats, Bird played in the track meet 80's, so make sure and adjust for possession based. Both were superior passing forwards, who rebounded well. That much they have in common. LeBron is the better distributor, but Bird had amazing vision.

Bird played 9 healthy years. Due to coming in later, his body, and his style of play, he lasted only so long. He doesn't get a pass for being hurt. His body of work is his body of work.

Bird's teams were favored in, and more talented, than most teams they played against. He got his butt kicked a few times by lesser teams to the degree we have never seen LeBron do, even in his 2011 finals (the lone series that makes me scratch my head when it comes to LeBron). Ray Allen's shot wouldn't have mattered had LeBron not gone nova and brought the Heat back within striking distance, but who remembers that, right?

Clutch? I have had this debate many times. It's a made up word.

Bird is maybe a top 10 player ever. Right around the level. LeBron passed him already. But, whatever floats your boat. You just don't have much of a case outside your personal preference, because LeBron beats him up in most denominators.

That's why they're called OPINIONS... never claimed differently. Not even worth responding to as you'll lose every time.

As far as " clutch " goes, it's far from a " made up word "... many examples can be made. Whatever floats your boat.

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 02:26 PM
That's why they're called OPINIONS... never claimed differently. Not even worth responding to as you'll lose every time.

As far as " clutch " goes, it's far from a " made up word "... many examples can be made. Whatever floats your boat.

I guess you are right, opinions can be baseless...

It's made up. What is "clutch"? Good luck finding a consistent answer.

prodigy
05-01-2017, 02:35 PM
and all you need to do is get a defense, and a slasher/shooters, and you are winning a chip.

So lebrons ur #1 then LMAO! you just described Lebron. Yet he's ur #4.

Bartlee23
05-01-2017, 02:36 PM
I guess you are right, opinions can be baseless...

It's made up. What is "clutch"? Good luck finding a consistent answer.

I apologize... I don't have the time (nor do I really care) to show examples of " clutch " but they are definitely out there. My guess with your responses you feel the need to either be right all the time or get the last word in but i haven't been able to figure it out yet. i'll tell you what.... I'll stop writing my opinions so you don't feel the need to answer or be right.... lol.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 02:37 PM
I think he'd be regarded as clutch no matter what. Looking at Bird's career playoff losing series here is what he did:

1980: lost ECF vs 76ers 2-4
1981: Won Finals
1982: Lost ECF vs 76ers 3-4
1983: Lost 2nd Rd vs Bucks 0-4
1984: Won Finals vs Lakers
1985: Lost Finals vs Lakers 2-4
1986: Won Finals vs Rockets
1987: Lost Finals vs Lakers 2-4
1988: Lost ECF vs Pistons 2-4
1990: Lost 1st Rd vs Knicks 2-3
1991: Lost 2nd Rd vs Pistons 2-4
1992: Lost 2nd Rd vs Cavs 3-4 (Larry only played half the series)

So looking at his playoffs:

He lost to the Lakers twice (and beat them once)

He lost to the 76ers twice (and beat them twice) and one of those times was his rookie season
He lost to the Pistons twice (and beat them once) and one of those times was post-back injury
He lost to the Knicks and Cavs post back surgery

So really the only team he for sure flopped against in terms of who the Celtics should have beaten was the Milwaukee Bucks in 1983.

Other than that his prime was him losing to historically good teams like the Lakers, 76ers, and Pistons. Certainly no shame in that. I mean, when the Celtics were at their peak they went to 4 straight Finals, which is exactly what LeBron's Heat did. I mean, before his surgery in 1989 the Celtics only failed to make the ECF one time and they went to more Finals (5) than they didn't (4). When it comes to playoff success, Larry Bird has a tremendous amount of success compared to failure.

Chronz laid out a very solid argument about Bird in another thread. I can't find it because PSD's search tool is terrible but it pretty much showed that Bird underachieved in more than a handful amount of playoff series.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 02:42 PM
No way in the world would I draft Bird over Lebron to start a team from scratch

many players can be dissected, just like Lebron wasn't the a loser the media claimed him to be and still was one of the best players ever prior to joining the Heat and winning a ring when all the talk was he needed to win a title, no he didn't but the media can brainwash you to think that, just as you speak of Bird being so clutch, which was media driven rather social media existed or not, its all media agenda

see that's the thing I always was pro Lebron but he can be dissected as well just like others and he has his flaws as well

Lebron has lost also being on the better team while being the best player but it doesn't take away from what they are, especially when you watch a player for a decade plus


So if I draft Lebron in your so called top 5-10 how would that equate to hatred? how do I hate a man/player that I said was one of the best ever players after/during his rookie year? did you have that type of thinking during his rookie year? or did you wait 10-12yrs later to decide where Lebron ranks?

when did I use the F word? I said the B word, but whatever makes you feel good think it, good job

I am very awesome, to the core

upset about what? I was giving an example using the B word so I cant be mad about that, once again whatever makes you sleep well at night, think it since its your free will to do so

you are quite the character, first you claim I am a conspiracy theorist(I am a truth teller) ,then you claim I am contradicting myself for unknown reasons then you claim I am mad by using words that I haven't even used, I am buying your next stand up comedy ticket ASAP, wont miss it for the world

1) The only series LeBron lost against a team he shouldn't have was against the Mavs. maybe there's one I'm missing but Bird has lost more than he should have. and the fact is, most of the teams LeBron have been in were great because of him. Bird's Celtics were great and Bird was a large player in that but McHale+Parish and even Tiny being there was a huge boost.
2) Why can't you rank the guy? If you say LeBron is in the top 20, that means you have him anywhere from 1-20. So if you can say he's top 20, why is it so difficult for you to name ten players who you would rank above LeBron? If you can't, then why say LeBron is top 20 and not top 10? That's what you won't answer and keep avoiding.
3) You are a conspiracy theorist. Truth teller? Okay, you sound like you need more help than I thought.
4) You're so frustrated and your mind is completely bamboozled that you didn't even realize you typed the f-word.

Here's what you said:

"What the fck don't you understand?

obviously you are just cherry picking posts, go back and post everything I have mentioned and you will find out what the fck I am saying

you never mentioned me saying its 10 players better, I don't have a top numerical list, I have a circle/box and I go by who I would draft 1st overall and then it all starts over on who I would pick on to the next best most dominant player, Lebron is in that circle, the best of the best is just that, they don't need a number/ranking, if you feel they do then that's on you"

So maybe you should take a break. No one needs to curse here.

prodigy
05-01-2017, 02:42 PM
People Keep saying Lebron will be in their top 10. that's an insult. I want people to explain to me whos ahead of Lebron and why? what do those players do that's better or Lebron couldn't do. I don't wanna hear about eras, or even the comp they played against. Because Jordan's comp was bunch of old guys ready to retire. Just straight basketball abilities. Be honest, be real, no hate is welcomed here. I don't care if you hate Lebrons guts as a person. Lets respect the game of all players that are mentioned.

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 02:44 PM
So lebrons ur #1 then LMAO! you just described Lebron. Yet he's ur #4.

Nobody bends a defense like Shaq.

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 02:46 PM
I apologize... I don't have the time (nor do I really care) to show examples of " clutch " but they are definitely out there. My guess with your responses you feel the need to either be right all the time or get the last word in but i haven't been able to figure it out yet. i'll tell you what.... I'll stop writing my opinions so you don't feel the need to answer or be right.... lol.

Clutch doesn't exist. It's a made up word that can't be defined. Countless threads have been done on this. Even the "clutch" players have perceptions that are incorrect (see Kobe's all time shot misses with less than 24 seconds to go in a 2 possession game). It's just a stupid word, that makes no sense, because you can't tell me that a last second rebound is any more important than stopping a run with 3 minutes to go with a jumper, and the other team never recovers for example. And that means, there are a million ways to define clutch, and now it's too broad.

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 02:56 PM
Nobody bends a defense like Shaq.

So why Jordan ahead of Shaq, then?

Hawkeye15
05-01-2017, 03:25 PM
So why Jordan ahead of Shaq, then?

Because he was individually more impactful than any other player to play. Defensively, he was literally miles ahead of Shaq as well.

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 03:45 PM
1) The only series LeBron lost against a team he shouldn't have was against the Mavs. maybe there's one I'm missing but Bird has lost more than he should have. and the fact is, most of the teams LeBron have been in were great because of him. Bird's Celtics were great and Bird was a large player in that but McHale+Parish and even Tiny being there was a huge boost.
2) Why can't you rank the guy? If you say LeBron is in the top 20, that means you have him anywhere from 1-20. So if you can say he's top 20, why is it so difficult for you to name ten players who you would rank above LeBron? If you can't, then why say LeBron is top 20 and not top 10? That's what you won't answer and keep avoiding.
3) You are a conspiracy theorist. Truth teller? Okay, you sound like you need more help than I thought.
4) You're so frustrated and your mind is completely bamboozled that you didn't even realize you typed the f-word.

Here's what you said:

"What the fck don't you understand?

obviously you are just cherry picking posts, go back and post everything I have mentioned and you will find out what the fck I am saying

you never mentioned me saying its 10 players better, I don't have a top numerical list, I have a circle/box and I go by who I would draft 1st overall and then it all starts over on who I would pick on to the next best most dominant player, Lebron is in that circle, the best of the best is just that, they don't need a number/ranking, if you feel they do then that's on you"

So maybe you should take a break. No one needs to curse here.

1.) Lebron lost to the Magic and they should have won that series, he was favored/best player in that series and his stats proved that, they had the best record in the nba I think back to back yrs so that counts for something especially with Lebron leading the way right? if Lebron had stayed in Cleveland and never left for Miami he would still be one of the best most dominant players ever, regardless if he was favored or not to win a series/ring

2) I put him in my box of best most dominant players of all time, that's better than a rank, he would get drafted in the upper half I would imagine, his impact is big time as I have stated on here many times over, maybe not in this thread but other ones

3) refute anything I have said on here about the topics I mentioned, if you think Christopher fakeass Columbus discovered America then you don't need help just go jump in the Ocean and call it a career

4)I typed that fck because you said it to me, just like I said I called you names because you start spewing off at the mouth, I thought you were talking about me replying to HAWK, go back and copy and paste what you said and I guarantee you typed that fck and I replied right back with it, and that's the reason why I spelled it like that because I got it from you, you are a frustrated comedian, so are you mad because you came at me with the fck word? must be

maybe you need the break since you pop off with the poppycock first then try to reverse the role, child please

valade16
05-01-2017, 03:52 PM
1.) Lebron lost to the Magic and they should have won that series, he was favored/best player in that series and his stats proved that, they had the best record in the nba I think back to back yrs so that counts for something especially with Lebron leading the way right? if Lebron had stayed in Cleveland and never left for Miami he would still be one of the best most dominant players ever, regardless if he was favored or not to win a series/ring

I agree with this sentiment. If we're going to penalize Larry Bird for losing to all-time great teams like the 76ers and Pistons because the Celtics had a better record, we should penalize LeBron for losing to the Magic and Celtics even despite his Cavs having a better record.

Which is why I don't think we should hold them losing to teams that while "worse" are considered great teams in their own right.

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 03:55 PM
"LeBron is a top 20 player."

"I never said there were ten players better than LeBron."

What the fck are you saying then?

See where I responded to you at with the fck jibberish?

more jibberish you came at me with also:

FlashinapanBolt
You're a conspiracy nut. Go back to your hut and cover your windows... Now you're debating that 2+2 isn't 4... Okay, whatever you say crackhead.

You must be really really mad and bitter about something, did I strike a nerve?

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 04:03 PM
I agree with this sentiment. If we're going to penalize Larry Bird for losing to all-time great teams like the 76ers and Pistons because the Celtics had a better record, we should penalize LeBron for losing to the Magic and Celtics even despite his Cavs having a better record.

Which is why I don't think we should hold them losing to teams that while "worse" are considered great teams in their own right.

and to be even more fair to Bird is that Lebron losing to Magic/Mavs is way worse because like you stated those teams Bird lost to were all time some of the best ever type teams, not like the Magic/Mavs who no one remembers and that Mavs series is more famous for Lebron being self checked than the Mavs actually winning the title, he froze himself out of that series especially seeing how he destroyed a way better team defense vs. the Bulls/Thibs, that's what shocked me the most

FlashBolt
05-01-2017, 10:05 PM
Better record doesn't mean a better team. Just like how Celtics have a better record than the Cavs. Are they better? Are the Raptors just as good as the Cavs? That Celtic team had more talent around than Cavs did. That Orlando team was not LeBron's fault. He put up arguably the best series ever but Orlando's shooting just destroyed the Cavs. Bird lost when he shouldn't have more than I could count.

europagnpilgrim
05-01-2017, 11:50 PM
Better record doesn't mean a better team. Just like how Celtics have a better record than the Cavs. Are they better? Are the Raptors just as good as the Cavs? That Celtic team had more talent around than Cavs did. That Orlando team was not LeBron's fault. He put up arguably the best series ever but Orlando's shooting just destroyed the Cavs. Bird lost when he shouldn't have more than I could count.

Excuses vs. results

Bird outside of that Bucks series lost against legit title contenders, Magic wasn't no feared legit title contender they just got hot at the right time from 3 pt land, and the Mavs had a big 1 vs a big 3 led by Lebron

Better record doesn't mean a better team unless its a Lebron led team but the past contenders who had the best record or top 2 records in the entire league were legit contenders or Finals representatives, ok Sherlock holmes you win the excuse battle, good job

Some have said this is the weakest number 1 seed ever(to me its that 01 Iverson led squad) and the Cavs finished 2nd behind the Celtics so I guess this is really a weak watered down Eastern Conference that Lebron is just destroying since every year its like a new fake contender for them to beat out East, pretenders is what we call them around my way

FlashBolt
05-02-2017, 12:19 AM
I don't know why I bother discussing anything with you. Think I'll just try my best to ignore you for sanity sake. You're bad at this. You really are. But I still wish you well.

prodigy
05-02-2017, 09:46 AM
I love Larry Bird but if you think hes better then Lebron you have serious issues. I'm sorry I'm not trying to offend people but wake the heck up and put the hate away. Birds teams were also much better then Lebrons cavs teams. Lets get real. smh... I guess people will just always hate certain guys. oh well

prodigy
05-02-2017, 09:49 AM
I don't know why I bother discussing anything with you. Think I'll just try my best to ignore you for sanity sake. You're bad at this. You really are. But I still wish you well.

Lebron could have 15 rings and he would still say bron is top 20. He just has hate for Lebron. Its sad people don't separate hate and skills. I hate Big Ben but man hes a great HOF QB.

Hawkeye15
05-02-2017, 10:02 AM
Excuses vs. results

Bird outside of that Bucks series lost against legit title contenders, Magic wasn't no feared legit title contender they just got hot at the right time from 3 pt land, and the Mavs had a big 1 vs a big 3 led by Lebron

Better record doesn't mean a better team unless its a Lebron led team but the past contenders who had the best record or top 2 records in the entire league were legit contenders or Finals representatives, ok Sherlock holmes you win the excuse battle, good job

Some have said this is the weakest number 1 seed ever(to me its that 01 Iverson led squad) and the Cavs finished 2nd behind the Celtics so I guess this is really a weak watered down Eastern Conference that Lebron is just destroying since every year its like a new fake contender for them to beat out East, pretenders is what we call them around my way

record isn't the best way at all to indicate strength. Sure you can't have a 40 win team and contend generally, but were the 49 win Nets really any threat to beat the Spurs in 2003? Were the 22 year old LeBron Cavs, really going to be the Spurs?

You realize what rosters Bird had, yes? No? Magic? You realize what pile of garbage Magic got to face out west yearly, come playoff time, yes? No? You get that LeBron doesn't care about the regular season, and basically maintains throughout, getting ready for the playoffs, right? Just like most 30+ year old HOF'ers always have..

I mean, it's not new for an all timer to have his homers and haters, that is the way it goes. For anyone that loves to point out the east during LeBron's tenure, make sure and study up on the west of the 80s.

valade16
05-03-2017, 10:36 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19305030/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-passes-kareem-abdul-jabbar-postseason-points

Figure the rankings should be updated.

James is now 2nd all-time in playoff points and may surpass MJ for #1 this postseason.

He's 3rd in playoff assists trailing only Magic and Stockton and 3rd in playoff steals trailing only Jordan and Pippen.

Incredible.

FlashBolt
05-04-2017, 12:07 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19305030/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-passes-kareem-abdul-jabbar-postseason-points

Figure the rankings should be updated.

James is now 2nd all-time in playoff points and may surpass MJ for #1 this postseason.

He's 3rd in playoff assists trailing only Magic and Stockton and 3rd in playoff steals trailing only Jordan and Pippen.

Incredible.

Don't forget rebounds. He's #7 right now. Should pass Karl and end up as #6 all-time. The longevity is just remarkable. Never seen anything like it.

nastynice
05-04-2017, 01:10 AM
I love Larry Bird but if you think hes better then Lebron you have serious issues. I'm sorry I'm not trying to offend people but wake the heck up and put the hate away. Birds teams were also much better then Lebrons cavs teams. Lets get real. smh... I guess people will just always hate certain guys. oh well

It's called being a hater.

I've learned much about this "hater" character over the past two years :)